Here is what I came up with. I appreciate the advice posted here in March and would appreciate any comments or criticisms, especially from those who have shot game with any of these bullets.

CAUTION: These are my loads in my rifle using my chronograph. They may be dangerous in yours so work up slowly.

Elephant bullets: The 450 grain North Fork was highly recommended. I preferred the Barnes 450 grain monolithic. Both have flat meplats, like Elmer Kieth revolver bullets, which are said to penetrate better than a round nosed bullet. The Barnes meplat is 7mm in diameter and the North Fork 8mm, a small difference. But the North Fork is much harder to crimp because the crimping grooves are so small and close together. The North Fork may group a little tighter but not enough to bother with. Velocity was about the same.

450 grain vs. 500 grain Barnes solids: The nose is identical. Many people recommend the 450, which I decided to use because the recoil is noticeably less. Some say the 450 penetrates deeper because it yaws less at close range. However, with AA2230 I can get adequate velocity with either in my Model 70.

Powders: AA2230 was recommended for 500 grain bullets and H4895 for 450 grain bullets. I concluded that AA2230 is better for all bullets. It's denser and you can get more in the case. Also you need less because it is a little faster burning. For instance, even with the 350 grain Hornady bullet, 80 grains of H4895 got me 2370 fps vs. 77 grains of AA2230 yielding 2500. I will use no other powder unless someone thinks AA2230 is very temperature sensitive.

These loads seemed very good and non-maximum. All grouped 2" to 2.5" at 100 yards (and my bench technique is not so good with this rifle) except the Hornady seemed a little worse.

72-AA2230-500 Barnes solid 2220 fps for elephant

73-AA2230-450 Barnes solid 2320 fps for elephant

73-AA2230-450 Barnes TSX 2275 fps for non-dangerous stuff

77-AA2230-350 Hornady SP 2510 fps for non-dangerous stuff

All but the Hornady load comfortably exceed 5000 foot pounds. I don't know whether to take the 350 Hornady or the 450 TSX for my expanding bullet load. All four loads shoot to about the same aim point at 100 yards but I have not yet shot them at 200. The 350 grain bullet's higher velocity might let it drop less, but its awful ballistic coefficient might give the advantage to the pointed TSX.

Bench shooting technique: I always wear a heavy leather padded High-power coat made by Creedmore. In this case, I folded up a towel and placed it over my right shoulder inside the coat as well. I grasp the rifle firmly with both hands. This makes bench shooting tolerable. Recoil is less obnoxious than my 300 Weatherby Ultra-Lightweight, which has a nasty habit of cutting my finger with the trigger guard if I'm not careful.

Don't trust loading manuals: At least two prominent manuals list 78 grains of AA2230 as the maximum load for 500 grain bullets. So I loaded a few with 77 grains. The first one chronographed 2376 fps but, funny thing, the bolt handle was hard to lift! I shot no more of these. BTW: If I take the Hornady load on safari, I will probably cut it to 76 grains, just on general principles.

A sensitivity test: I ran this with H4895 and 450 grain Barnes solids. One shot was fired at each charge weight. I then smoothed the data with a second order polynomial to get a smooth average. Charges and velocities were:

72 2210
73 2220
74 2230
75 2250
76 2290

I suspect this indicates sharp pressure rises after 74 grains and I would use no heavier charge.

I had my .458 out on Sunday chronographing a few loads.

350gn X over 78gn of H 4198 = 2582 fps and cases fell out of the chamber.

400gn X 74gn H 4198 = 2434 fps slightly compressed
76gn H 322 = 2380 fps

450gn TSX 72gn H 322 = 2381 fps mild and slightly compressed
68gn H 4198 = 2359 fps mild and most accurate load

I think the .458 is one of the most underrated big game cartridge we have, as it can be loaded down to .45/70 loads to handle deer and light game or loaded up to 2050 fps with 550 grain bullets and do it all. I also like the 300 grain X bullets loaded to 2650fps usig 75 grains of H 4198 and used this a lot for feral culling.

AGW

IIRC the flat meplat helps hold direction better and better penetration follows as a result.

Amen to that. You may wish to try 72.0 gr H4895/450 TSX very accurate in my Mauser action

Lots of folks get 2100 plus with the .458, but you cannot do that without "compaction" or 100% plus loading density, therein lies my complaint witht the .458 Win. If I were inclined to use it these days (have used it in the past) then I would punch it out to a Lott (easy to do) and shoot it at 2200 FPS.

The 458 has time and time again failed on its supporters, what does it take to convience the populace it is a poorly designed round that can and has, got hunters in trouble. When it works its very good, but when it fails its very very bad.

But in the end, it is up to each of us to make that decision, and then we must live with it.

I don't think compaction is any problem with the .458. The loads I listed are not compacted very much, including the one with the 500 grain bullet above 2200 fps.

I am familiar with the old stories about WW748 powder clumping together after laying around the tropics for years, but that's far different from AA2230 fired maybe two months after loading. I don't use WW748.

I used to use a really compacted H4831 load for 1000 yards at Camp Perry, Ohio, using a 30-06 with 190 grain MatchKings. It gets a lot hotter and more humid at Camp Perry in August than it does during the usual hunting months in southern Africa. I never had velocity changes due to any compaction, which I am certain would have showed up at 1000 yards.

I'm guessing Ray's comments are based on experience predating some of the best powders for the 458wm. I have no compaction issues with my elephant loads at all, either with 500gr Woodleighs at 2135fps using AA2230 or 450gr North Forks at 2190 using H4895 and both loads offer plenty of penetration.

Indy, I used 500gr Woodleighs over AA2230 this past September and October on several elephants and noted no temperature issues. Temps were over 100* many days. But my load is lighter than yours I believe.

BTW, my objections with AA2230 and 450gr North Forks were somewhat inconsistent velocity and dirty barrels. Since my rifle shot the 450gr North Forks better with the H4895 at sufficient velocity to get the job done and some and left no residue in the barrels I went with it. My rifle is a double rifle so getting the barrels shooting together is the overriding goal once performance citeria are reached.

I believe the truncated cone shape of the North Forks is what provides their amazing performance. But, as I believe Peter has confirmed, I am sure the Barnes will do all that you need.

JPK

This very afternoon I shot one of my handloads of 72.0 gr H4895/450gr TSX into a dried an knotted ash stump. I was using it as my chopping block to split firewood. Then I split the stump with a sledge and wedges to look for the TSX. If I knew how to post pictures I would post one of it. Picture book expansion and though I didn't weigh it as my scale goes to just 350gr it looks to be perfect 450 grs weight. This is after 17" of boreing thru knotted dried ash. I can hardly wait to drive one into the vitals of a dugga boy

Ray,

Regarding compaction, I just loaded some 458 Winchester rounds with 73 grains of AA2230 and 450 grain Barnes TSXs, WW cases. COL was 3.34 inches, which is what is recommended.

With this load there is no compaction. Powder density is just about 100%. With this load I get almost 2300fps and comfortably over 5000 foot pounds of energy.

I therefore have to agree with some others: The .458 Magnum is indeed an underrated cartridge.

A lot of folks are still hung up on a few bad reviews of older 458 Win ammo. If they would actually try loads with powders like AA2230 they would see that the 458 Win indeed does equal - and often best - the old nitro cartridges that they dearly love.
After fifty years, the 458 is better than ever and a true big bore classic.

"If they would actually try loads with powders like AA2230 they would see that the 458 Win indeed does equal - and often best - the old nitro cartridges that they dearly love."

Exactly right in my opinion. Example: The 470 Nitro Express fired a 480 grain bullet at a listed 2150 fps (if I recall correctly). Further, that was in a 28" barrel. Even the double rifles of the time usually had 24" or 26" barrels, so the true velocity was more like 2050 (see the book "Ndlovu" for documentation of this).

It is no trick at all to load a .458 with a 24" barrel to 2200 fps (chronographed) with a 500 grain solid. Heavier bullet at higher velocity beats the .470 by a lot. And the .458 even has better sectional density for penetration.

Finally, today's bullets like Barnes monolithics and North Fork make the .458 even better, though these are available for other calibers as well.

Those whom would look down their long noses at the .458WM while holding a .470NE in their hands are more interested in what other people see them holding than ballistics. I doubt their ego will allow them to see clearly.

Indy,

You point is right on but the support you cite is off a little.

The 450NE 3 1/4", grandfather of all smokeless DG cartridges, shoots a 480gr bullet at a nominal 2150fps, specced at 28" barrels. I have a log somewhere that records actual velocities acheived by owners of 450NE 3 1/4" rifles with loads that regulate and the velocity range is from 2050fps or so to one that reached 2165fps. Like you say, most rifles had 24" or 26" barrels, though there are some that have 28" barreles.

The 470 shoots a 500gr bullet at a nominal 2125fps out of a 31" barrel. For some fun comparrisons see Kynoch's website here: http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/

My elephant and buffalo loads push a 500 at 2135fps as I have mentioned this is beyond the in the field performance of most all 450NE rifles. Throw in the 450 NF's which penetrate further and the 458wm is more rifle today than the 450NE and 470NE which remain benchmarks for their record of success in the field.

The old, but often repeated myth of lagging 458wm performance is just that, myth.

JPK

JPK: Just for my edification, are ALL loads compressed in the 458Win in order to achieve 2100 fps regardless of powder used? thanks, jorge

No. You can get loads that are not compressed, even at 2100 fps. There may be issues with pressure however.

Jorge,

No. Neither of my loads is compressed and I'm not using a drop tube, though I do tap the cases to settle the powder. My loads are not near maximum by the "book" but they sure work. I had my North Fork load pressure tested and it is well below maximum.

I don't get the issue with lighly compressed loads anyway. While I have never used a compressed load, that I know of - maybe factory fodder ?, from what I read, 100% or slightly higher load density aids in reliability. The old issues were with powder that clumped due to storage and age issues. I use fresh ammo for DG hunting just because I load and shoot alot prior to my trips. Seems easy to avoid even remotely possible problems by loading fresh ammo for any DG trip, no matter what cartridge you're using.

JPK

When you get 100% density, you have compaction. The case is full to the top, then you stick a long 450 or 500 gr. bullet in it, you have compaction.

These are not "old stories", it happens every year a couple of times. In my business we hear about it when it happens. It has happened with factory ammo. It has happened in our camp several times over the years and enough times that I won't hunt with the .458 Win.

For those that are convinced otherwise, that is there choice but I see no reason to position myself in that group, based on my own experiences, when I have so many choices, such as punching it out just a tad to a .458 Lott, and loading the Lott down and really lowering the pressure.

What I suggest is put that 100% density ammo on the shelf for a year, then pull the bullets, you will have to dig it out with a screw driver as a rule. I don't find it unusual that someone has good luck at the range in hot temps with compacted ammo, but then the gun has not been sitting in the sun for hours at a time as it may be in Africa.

As to killing power, I have no complaints with the .458, any bullet weighing 500 grs. at 2000 FPS will kill anything., but reliability in the field is foremost with me, as I have seen many cases where a hunter is in a precarious position and his gun jams, or misfires or doesn't fire, and he is playing switch finger while everyone else is sorting out his mess.

I also see a lot of loads for that caliber that just don't click on my chronograph and velocity is guessed and by goshed at.

The above is only my personal opinnion, your is yours. If you are confident with the .458 then by all means use it.

JPK: Being a Weatherby shooter, I have no issues with lightly compressed loads, that is, where the base of the bullet lightly pushes down on the powder. I don't own a 458, but if one were to ever come up, I'd have no issues with one, but I much prefer a 450 Dakota or Rigby. jorge

Ray, You know I am interested in this stuff and I would love to hear your first hand accounts of the 458's failings and the details as to why. Is it possible that any of the loads you saw fail were old and/or factory ? Have you actually tried any AA2230 powder in the 458 ? It works wonders in my experience and tales of acheiving 2300fps are not exagerated.
Finn Aagaard always claimed that most of the 458 bashing was due to hunters blaming their ammo for their poor shooting. Currently Don Heath, Charlie Haley and Mike LaGrange, who as you know, are three of the foremost ballistic experts in Africa ( with many years and many thousands of elephants to their credit) claim that the current 458 Win is one of the best elephant cartridges.
Elephants and buffalo are not my field but I can verify that good 500gr bullets @ 2100fps drops big bears with the authority of a crane falling on them.

atkinson-

I've never owned or used a 458 Win or hunted in hot climates with any big bore or taken a buff although I do hope to rectify that. I'm a non-expert and am not posing as one.

While those here who've used the 458 W with good results have experience that cannot be denied, Terry Wieland's book, DANGEROUS GAME RIFLES, pretty much sums up the 458 W and it's past as you've described. He claims that many loads with a 500-gr bullet barely reached 1900 fps from a "standard length" barrel when it first came out. Obviously, the 458 has improved with more and different powders according to its proponents here and sounds like it has become what was originally intended.

It's an interesting discussion but why I am having a Lott built instead. And I freely admit I'm doing it based purely on what I've read. I can have a 458 W- a 500-gr bullet at an easy 2150 to 2200 fps - but at greatly reduced pressure.

Gdv

If you or Terry Wieland is claiming that a 45 cal.500 grain bullet at 1900 FPS is not effective then I have serious doubts about about anyhting else that is said.......

I did not say that nor did I say he stated that.

First, lets look at some real first hand experience with the mythically troubled 458wm and Winchester factory 500gr solid ammo. Just two fellows in Zimbabwe killed nearly 10,000 elephant between them with the 458wm and neither ever had an issue. The two, Ron Thompson and Richard Harlan are both still alive. They didn't enjoy the substantial increase in performance available from today's powders, but Harlan clocked his old Winchester rounds at 2050fps on an Ohler.

Then we have Ray's stories. Hmmmm...

JPK

I have only owned one 458 Mag and that was when I lived in Alsaka. the rifle was a Interarms Whitworth and it gave me 2110 fps with 500 grain bullets and IMR-4895.....

JPK

You'll note I didn't say that it wasn't effective nor that it hasn't been used successfully throughout it's history. I am not arguing against the 458 W.; I am merely telling you what Wieland wrote in his book and what has been repeated often times before. I'm not even arguing the validity of what has been written, just stating that what atkinson stated has been "commonly reported"; whether urban myth or not.

I can say that it influenced me to build mine a Lott. But note that I also stated that "while those here who have used the 458 W. effectively have experience that cannot be denied" immediately after I stated I have no experience with it.

I have to admit that 10k ele's certainly should be statistically significant but it does not necessarily completely rule out design flaws. And again, I'm not saying it has them but this is about discussing rationally the merits of a cartridge and its "growth" over time with new and better components as implied in the thread's title against this "history" of failing - according to some - to be what it was advertised to be at its inception.

I enjoy this gentlemen because of what I learn here.

Gdv

There is no denying the fact that some of the older 458 Win ammo gave erratic performances due to a combination of age, compression and heat. But to be fair one must also realize that original Kynoch loads also fail to reach anywhere near their advertised velocities. Ross Seyfried tested original Kynoch 450/400 loads and was suprised when they barely reached 1900fps - but it still has a good reputation. Every original Kynoch load that I have ever tested, as well as those results published by a few astute Aftican gun loonies, give real world ballistics between 2000 to 2100fps (rather than the advertised 2300-2400fps) and this has been proven over and over to be all that is needed. Even Jack Lott was only looking to acheive these velocities.
With modern powders it is easy to duplicate - and surpass- these ballistics with the 458, with no compression or pressure problems.
If you want more velocity - for whatever reason - and can afford the price - then go ahead and buy a bigger round. But don't discout the experiences of Harry Selby ( when he traded in his 416 Rigby he bought a 458 Win ) , Don Heath, Charlie Haley, Richard Harlan or Finn Aagaard and expect me to believe the round is ineffective and can't safely reach 2100fps with 500 grain bullets.

To my mind the biggest argument in favor of the 458 Win is that it doesn't require a massive action in order to work properly. This means it can be made up into a lighter, slicker rifle that is easier to carry and that will make for a shooter who is less fatigued and quicker to the shot when the shot presents itself. If you're going big why not go all the way? If 150fps with a 500gr bullet is enough for you to want to lug around an extra pound of rifle, why not go with the 505 Gibbs? No compaction problems there...

Precisely....

The Picture below is of a Bison that I took with a 500 Linebaugh with a 525 grain WFLN hard cast bullet at 1120 fps and the bullet went completely through and exited the animal.If the 500 grain out of the 458 only got 1900 fps nothing is going to walk away from that.....

Nope, and thought I'd made it clear I'm not. As to your and other's success with the 458 W, the lawyers are want to say, "res ipsa loquitor", or "the thing speaks for itself".

This is not an argument on my part.

Gdv

JWP475,

Unfortunately, a .458", 500gr roundnose steel jacketed solid at 1900fps is not sufficient for reliable penetration on elephants. It is barely enough on Cape Buffalo which are in a different league bone structure wise than our American Bison. Effective, reliable performance of 500gr roundnose steel jacketed solids on elephants starts at about 2000fps, maybe 2025fps, and goes up from there.

I have killed elephants with .458" 500gr steel jacketed solids at 2050fps and at 2135fps, both work but the difference is pretty aparrent. There is only 85fps difference in the two loads, going to 1900fps is loosing 150fps from none to far from the minimum.

Interestingly, a flat nose .458" mono copper solid at 2190fps will outpenetrate the heavier solid by a huge margin.

For the elephant, the bullet must often travel three feet or more through very thick, tough skin and then sinew, muscle, solid bone, liquid filled honey comb and finally a last thin shell before reaching the brain. Might have to deal with tusk sockets and tusks too depending on the angle. On top of that, it is good insurance to be shooting a load that will still have the energy to break the spine if the brain is missed low or enough energy to concuss the ele to knock it down, especially if it is trying to kill you.

JPK

Goodnews,

My comments are directed at Ray who is regurgitating his baloney and Weiland who is as well.

IMO, build a new rifle, build a Lott. More flexibility, same performance at lower pressure or more performance at the same pressure, shoots 550gr solids at 2150fps which is an excellent performer on elephants (so I've been told by two with first hand experience) and can still shoot 458wm, which is widely available where DG is hunted, in case yours goes missing or you run low.

On the other hand, if you find a nice second hand 458wm that fits, you will live happily ever after.

On the shorter, lighter rifle point of view, I just don't see it. The Lott is built on a 375H&H length action. It would be no difficulty to have a Lott built at, say, 9lbs. That is plenty light enough in my view, in fact too light.

JPK

Maybe what needs to be done is looking at loads for elephants seperate from hippo, lion, rhino, and buffalo. Even at that someone will undoubtly post that one needs to be ready for anything in the jess.
I'll stick to a .458 @ 450 gr/ moving along at 2100 or so and not feel under gunned anywhere in Africa. If others are they are surely free to opt for more fire power.

It's amazing how emotional some folks get when you have a different opinnion, I have no problem with anyone using any caliber, just making conversation and passing on what I believe, based on observation of many buffalo being shot and having shot quit a number of my own.

Having loaded the .458 to some degree, I have not found a powder that does not fill the case to compaction after a 500 gr. bullet has been seated, the Swift manual supports that finding, and all I said was the caliber benifited from being punched out to a .458 Lott, that only makes since to me. Apparantly some disagree, probably because folks that own a certain caliber seem to become very touchy when another says something negative against it, I never felt that way about a gun, only a live animal or person. Sorry if I offended anyone.

JPK

Certainly no offense taken on my part. I'm a rank beginner here when it comes to truly big bores and know nothing other than what I've read.

It's an interesting place to learn which is why I dove in. I will never have as much experience as you or Phil or atkinson. Different experiences, opinions - all assumed valid - are what make it interesting.

Gdv

Ray, have you used AA 2230 in the 458 ? Give it an honest try and I'll bet you will be suprised.

Is AA 2230 suited to other straight walls? I'm thinking 405, 38-55 and 45-70 here?
I'm currently using Benchmark for these but considering a change to N133.
Any thoughts?

SOS

Phill,
No, I have not tried AA2230, I will do that the next chance I get or when a .458 darkens my doorway in a trade.:) I will bow down before you if it works and beg your forgiveness over our 5 year enjoyable fued over the caliber and a certain bullet! then I will punch it out 30 thousands and make it a Lott.:) I would like to try some loads that I got out of Sweeden also, but do not have a .458 presently.

To others:

What I have found is that many of the quoted loads don't add up and I have tried them, such as: 24" barrel, Fed 215, WW

74.5 grs. of H335 chrono: at 2100 FPS 110% density
72.o grs. of IMR4895 chrono at 2120 106% density
73.0 grs. of RL-15 chrono at 2099 107% density
69.0 grs. of IMR3031 chrno at 2088 101% density

Is the above the "baloony" being referred to? It spells compaction IMO. I tried just about every load in the Swift manual, and some others in different manuals. I did not get the claimed velocitys either.

I will concede that a 450 gr. Monolithic may be the answer as one can get 2200 FPS with 66 grs of RL-7 loads that showed a density in the 90% catagory. The 450 Monolithic is probably on parr as stated with a std. 500 gr. conventional bullet, although some will argue this point, but I accept it as valid.

That concession given, I still feel the cartridge was poorly designed from the get go, as it should have been on a 3" case and none of these discussion would have ever come about..and it is a discussion that has lingered for years, not just old news, it keeps rearing its ugly head every year, where their is that much smoke, there is some degree of fire.

Note however that I have NEVER said the .458 was not a killing caliber, it is, even at 1800-1900 FPS a 500 gr. bullet is deadly. My only contention, which has been taken out of context by some overly emotional villians who don't want to feel duked over their purchase, and insist that I am whipping their baby. What I have said and do believe is the round isn't what it should have been, as Winchester was on a short magnum kick, and it worked with the .338, but fell short with the .458 IMO...

Furthermore I am open to suggestions that will change my mind, but not to blathering and insulting suggestions, only to suggested loads that clean my chronograph and have a reasonable load density, and that applies to any caliber, not just the .458.

Ray, have you seen the ads for the new Norma PH ammo ?
Upon the recommendation of Kevin Robertson's - and other highly respected PH's. They are loading high SD bullets like the 350gr 375 H&H to what they consider to be the best velocity for dangerous game -around 2150fps. Since the 500 gr .458 bullet already has the SD they want, they are loading the Lott to an even 2100fps !!!
Just think, some day, when you are too old and stiff to rope, and your joints hurt when you have to work a long action, you will thank me for suggesting the short 458.

[Quote] by LPK
JWP475,

Unfortunately, a .458", 500gr roundnose steel jacketed solid at 1900fps is not sufficient for reliable penetration on elephants. It is barely enough on Cape Buffalo which are in a different league bone structure wise than our American Bison. Effective, reliable performance of 500gr roundnose steel jacketed solids on elephants starts at about 2000fps, maybe 2025fps, and goes up from there.
[Quote]


I can not speak from experience,but a Gentleman in New Orleans,La.has killed many Bull Elephant. He has killed them with big bore rifles and with the 50 Cal. revolvers with a 450 grain steel tipped hardcast bullet.He has stated that the revolver give him adequate penetration on frontal brain shots.Based on his experience I find it hard to fathom that a 45 cal. 500 grain solid at 1900 FPS is suddenly inadequate. I am I wrong? The 500 grain is a higher SD bullet than the 50 cal. 435 grain and 650 FPS faster as well......

Phil,
This is all very true. Geoff McDonald from Woodleigh told me that he had over the years, chronographed most of the original British Nitro rounds and at that time, had never seen a single one live up to factory velocity claims.

Most negative comments about cartridges, any of them, but the .458 in this case, usually come from people with little first hand experience.

I have owned several and tested several more, in climate equally as hot as anything Africa has to offer and never had a failure, but, I am not using decades old factory ammunition either.

John

Hey Phil,

Please stop contradicting the internet truth with real world experince and facts. Its screws up the whole process. . .(wink).

BMT

jwp, roundnosed bullets out of rifles stand a better than 50% chance of running offcourse, that's what JPK is referring to. Now, if you're just using roundnoses on your handgun, you'll run into the same problem too. Flatnose bullets with at least a 30% meplat works on everything, rifles and handguns.

Flat points are definately the way to go no disagreement there.........

To No One in Particular but to All -

As one who has no experience here I can say neither "aye" or "nay" in regard to it on the 458 Win.

What I do know is I respect each one here and if you look up through this thread there is a great deal of information here, most "pro" but some "con". Some of you buy GMC; some buy Ford; but you have your reasons and you pay your money; I would venture to say that at any one time, place, and circumstance each could be right.



Gdv

What about Dodge,especiaaly with the Cummins?...

So logically, if I load .458 wadcutters in my rifle, and download it to 45-70 ballistics, I can shoot through an entire herd of elephants ? Or I'm suppose to shoot through Fords?
I think I better go hunting.

I don't get your analogy??
I don't recall any one talking about wad cutters.. You must have a hell of a 45-70 to get 1900 FPS with a 500 grain solid...

Time and experience have shown that a .458" roundnose steel jacketed solid at 1900fps is not reliable for use on elephants. Likewise, it seems that about 2025fps is reliable. I do not doubt that loads running 1900fps have from time to time killed elephants but they are not reliable since a given brain shot may require little penetration - as when the elephant has its head down - or great penetration - as when it has its head up. Further not every shot will avoid the tusk socket or tusk.

If you would like to read more on the topic, try looking at African-hunter.com for some of the articles available there.

Another point, flat nose mono solids outperform roundnose solids. I do not know if the flat nose advantage reduces the required velocity for reliable penetration for use on elephants. My own flat nose mono solid load shoots a 450gr bullet at 2190fps, faster than my 2135fps current 500gr round nose load.

JPK

Ray,

I guess I do become annoyed when I read mythical baloney spread by the uninformed.

JPK

JPK, Thanks...........

JWP475
Since Wadcutters are the ultimate flat nose bullet and, if one believes the "flat nose penetrate better" crowd are correct, then obviously they should penetrate farther than anything else.
Also, since some folks believe pistols with low SD, flat nosed bullets at low velocity will out penetrate heavy rifles !?


I was being facetious.

Yeah, but, only for one thing. They have lousy SD's and don't carry far. Having shot PPC way back when, the wadcutter loads were good up to 50 yds. Sometimes up to 100 yds with some hopped-up wadcutter loads. In 357's they failed miserably. I know of some who handloaded some wadcutters with copious amounts of Unique and 2400 to no avail. Up close, it was just OK, no better than the SWC's of the period. The wadcutter just didn't have the body shape to go very far.

If you were as sharp as you think you are you would know that a wadd cutter is not accurate to much distance and that they are not of optimum meplat size for proper penetration. A meplt of 78% of bullet diameter with a trunecated cone shape seems to be optimum for great pentration in the 475 to 500 cal. Revolvers. I have seen a 425 grain 500JRH with a 78% meplat out penetrarte a 500 grain out of a 500 Linebagh with a 72% meplat and pentrate the same as a 525 grain out of a 500 Linebaugh with a 77% meplat and a radised nose. The same 525 grain shot from a 50 Alaskan revolver did not pentrate more than the 500 Linebaugh despite nearly 500 fps more velocity. Like I stated earlier the Gentleman in New Orleans has killed a lot of Elephants ( It i said to be 100 bull Elephants,not counting cows) and I tend to think that he has a bit of experience,as he has used both revolver and rifle....... JPK whom also has a lot of experience with the rifles on Elephant stated that round nose solids do not penetrate as far as flat point solids.and that his favorite solid is a 450 flat point,there is a dfinate trend that indicates that SD is not the only factor.......apparently these subttle yet important differences escapes you..........

Just for the record your condisending tone did not escape me..........

[Quote] by JPK
Another point, flat nose mono solids outperform roundnose solids. I do not know if the flat nose advantage reduces the required velocity for reliable penetration for use on elephants. My own flat nose mono solid load shoots a 450gr bullet at 2190fps, faster than my 2135fps current 500gr round nose load.
[Quote]


I believe that JPK has quite a bit of experience on Elephant and I believe that his answer carries a bit of wieght.......

jwp, didn't you see his last line, "I was being facetious?"

With regard to the contention that flat nosed solids seem to penetrate more than round noses, I wonder if anyone has an opinion of North Fork 450s vs. Barnes monolithics. The latter have a 7mm meplat, about 45% of the bullet diameter. North Fork meplats are slightly wider.

.458 Trajectory for "long range":

I finally shot some 450 grain TSXs at 200 yards. Sighted in at 100 yards, they dropped about 7 inches at 200. 350 grain Hornady's did not do any better so I guess the 450s win.

Granted, you would not sight in for 100 yards for plains game only, but rather about 3" high at that range. But it's nice to know that if you sight in for dangerous game (100 yard zero), it won't be too hard to shoot antelope at 200.

jwp475, I don't claim to be "sharp" and I certainly do not know all there is to know about anything - including guns. I am always willing to listen to those more knowledgeable and experienced than I. Since you seem to know a lot about flat nosed bullets and deep penetration I would like to hear about your experiences and where you acheived your knowledge. In order to correctly give credit where it is due I would also like to know who you are?
I am not ashamed of who I am or to share how I got my experience.




Anonimity, like the masks worn by terrorists, gives courage to cowards.

Indy
With my limited use of Barnes, I find that it's a longer bullet that eats up cartridge space and won't necessarily shoot in any particular rifle. My experience with them has been only with the 375 H&H and 416 Rigby. I couldn't do better than 2" with either and often keyholed on target. Some rifles like 'em and some don't. Never had that problem with the North Forks.

I don't think it is prudent to givee out your idenity on the internet.I have allready had one of my accounts breached and idenity stollen,because I was not careful enough and it cost me a large sum of money. Your inuendo about being a coward is rather ridiculous. As I mentu=ioned in the PM attend the Linebaugh seminar in Cody,Wy. and I will look you in the eye and introduce myself and bring your 458 with round nose solids and watch the 500 and 475 revolvers out penetrate it in wet News paper. I remember your article on shooting Bison with your 458 Win. and 450 grain Northforh softs and if memorior serve they did not exit. My 500 Linebaugh in the picture posted ealier in this thread did indeed exit...........

.475 Guy:

Both the 450 grain North Forks and the 450 grain Barnes monolithics seem to shoot about the same sized groups in my rifle and there are no keyholes.

The difference I see is that it is hard to crimp the NFs with a Lee factory crimping die because the grooves are so small, as are the driving bands between the grooves. Did you crimp yours and how did you do it?

Indy,

I didn't find it hard to cripm the cartidges but it takes a little time and effort to msake them pretty. Trimming to a consistent length seemes to be the key.

All,

I don't want to get into a pissing match but the NF's are a truncated cone design, which I think is a key to penetration. I know, after testing, that they outpenetrate the round noses by a good 40%, On the other hand I also believe that the wet news print test are just plain inaccurate. Wet newsprint tears with a "high velocity" cartridge shooting round noses - such as the 458 - but it cuts with a slow "wad cutter" so the data is meaningless for game. No data on a fast, relatively heavy (450gr .458" and 2200fps or there abouts) wadcutter! But real life experience says a steel jacketted 500gr round nose, SD .341, at 2025fps will do the job and that a lighter 450gr flatnose with a SD of .305 - such as the NF - at slightly higher velocity will do the job better.

I do not think that hard cast lead will reliably hold together at velocities proven repeatedly sufficient for elephants. Elephant heads are not news print and they are not flesh either.

BTW, I have never had a roundnose solid veer from a straight line though I have seen plenty of evidence that they tumble - but only when they have lost a great portion of their velocity in the game and already done their jobs.

JPK

It is a pita but as stated above, trimming the brass to a consistent length helps. What I do is find the over-all length that I need and then line up the crimping die with whichever groove it is. I have several crimping dies so that once it's locked in, I don't bother with adjustments anymore. It takes a bit of practice to not distort the bullet when crimping it but the effort is worth it. Contrary to most rifle shooters out there, I believe in a medium-heavy crimp as it just helps with the burning of the powder with that extra resistance there.

The nose of a hard cast will definately get chewed badly through a lot of heavy bone even at handgun velocities and this wouls only woresen at rifle velocities.Before the Punch Bullets which is a flat point brass or copper solid with a small lead core,the only way to get a hard cast to hold up was with a steel nose if you were shooting through a lot of bone....and these had to be specialy machined......

Apparently I spaced it or failed grasp the meaning over reaction and or not grasping the meaning of the written word on the post is a negative of this type of comunication,but the good side is that we are exposed to more information than in the old days..........

the ability to receive more information is only as good as the information reeived - and that is only as good as the person offering it.
jwp475, I enjoyed our phone conversation and think you should contact Rick Bin or Dave Scovill about sharing your experiences with the rest of us. Of course you might have to reveil your name and would then become one of us know-it-all gunwriters.
thanks for the call

Sectional Density has absolutely nothing to do with shape but is only the relationship between weight (mass) and bullet diameter. A 500 grain wadcutter has the same SD as a 500gr round nose or spitzer. they are just shorter.

I agree with your contention about them not going far - in air, water or animals, but that has been beaten to death on other forums and generated a lot more heat than light.

Phil, you knew what I was trying to say.

JPK,
I see no reason to be rude because we disagree, and as to uninformed I was hunting Africa when you were still on the tit! and your starting to annoye me also..How about you do your thing and I will do mine, and just let it go at that. I have no beef with you, but your sure doing your best to start something. just let it go.

I did know what you were getting at as far as accuracy goes as I have shot competative handguns but there are a lot of folks who do not understand SD (including some writers) and you did say that wadcutters have less SD so I couldn't be sure.

475Guy and JPK:

Thanks for emphasizing the need for consistent trim length with the North Forks. That must be the answer. I have two of them left and will load them in cases of the exact same length. If that works, I'll get some more and take them with me in September.

I also prefer a heavy crimp with such ammo, though I favor no crimp whatsoever for maximum accuracy in smaller calibers.

The inexperience I was refering to is with the 458wm. And it is plain that what I said is accurate.

JPK

Well JPK, I happen to disagree with you.

Im still waiting to hear one actual circumstance where the .458 win mag "failed" ????????

The .458 cartridge probably never did fail. There are reports however, that some powders proved inapropriate and some earlier bullet technology was inferior to what we have available today.

AGW

There are a few anectdotes out there, but mostly the fault of the bullet (winchester produced some horrible solids about 40 years ago)or caked powder and squib loads. My uncle used his in Mozambique and Angola in the late 60s early 70s on three safaris with good results and factory ammo. As most of you know, the 458 was just about the only big bore available during the 50s & 60s and it worked. Today however there are better choices out there, in my view the 450 Rigby, 450 Dakota and even the 460 Weatherby are all better choices. With thoe three, you can make them "cruise" at 2300-2400 fps with no pressure issues. jorge

No arguments there Jorge.

I just stumbled on a load fro my .460 shooting the 500 grain TSX just under .5" at 2500 fps. Need to replicate it of course, but it looks very interesting at the moment.

AGW

Ray,

You have pointed out yourself that you do not possess the experience with the 458wm to hold a valid opinion.

JPK

Ray Atkinson I'm a average northeast hunter with dreams of African hunting in the future.I aquired a Winchester model 70 .458 which is what I would like to use. This is partly based on articles from Jim Carmichel and his success with the cartridge.My question to you is with Hornadys and Winchesters new .458 ammo both stating velocities between 2,240 and 2,260 f.p.s for the 500 grain slug and with energy at 5,500 and 5,600 at the muzzle wouldn't you think this would be suffient for cape buffaloe? This is a large improvement over what used to be considered the top loads at 2,150. And if these new loads are not true, then why aren't these manufacturers held liable for what they print? I think proper bullet placement with that kind of power would stop anything. So if these new figures are true would you reconsider your stance on the .458

Some report the Hornaday numbers are too optimistic, other's the Nosler numbers. I think they probably are in typical barrel length rifles. Nosler reports dropping velocity from there first printing of advertising materials, and that is straight from the horses mouth.

But 500 grains at 2150fps beats the well proven stopping rifle benchmark of 480 grains at 2150fps (an historical nominal performance number achieved with longer than typical pressure barrels and rarely achieved in the field) set by the 450NE more than 100 years ago. In fact 480 grains at 2100 was more like real field performance.

My 500 grain Woodleigh solid load runs 2145fps MV and leaves NOTHING WANTING. Way more than sufficient for buff, plenty sufficient for bull elephant.

For the bolt rifle user, more velocity is available, at least in 24" and longer tubes. My 458wm is a double rifle and I load to regulation, meaning making the two barrels shoot together, and not top velocity.

I've also used the 458wm with 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2050fps and that load is plenty for buff and sufficient for elephants, but 2050fps is only on the ok side of marginal for elephants.

The new 500gr Hornaday steel jacketed flat nose solids look very promising and reports from the field indicate that they will be a great bullet. In my experience, flat noses out penetrate round noses. But most 458wm suitable flat noses have been mono metal bullets that run 450grs because of the long length of mono bullets. A 500gr mono solid eats too much powder room in the 458wm cae. But 500gr steel jacketed solids are roughly equal length with 450gr monos. So hornaday seems to have come out with the best of both worlds.

A soft from a 458wm running 2050 or 2100fps is more than sufficient for a first shot on buff or any other animal you would shoot with a soft point.

JPK

I've also read that the .458 win mag with a 450 gr vs a.416 rem mag with a 400 gr out to 200 yards has a similar trajectory, differences are fractions of a inch, but the stopping power greatly favoring the .458 win mag traveling at over 2300 fps and well over 5ooo ft pds of energy at the muzzle. whats your thoughts of these figures and would you agree ? I think both are awesome cartriges and either one would get the job done as needed.

I've also seen articles recently how many professional hunters like seeing there clients showing up with .416s or .458 win mag but once you hit the .458 lott they see alot of flinching going on,this wouldn't help with proper bullet placement. I'd rather make a good shot than try to compensate for abad shot.This was from Peter Barnard PH from a article in guns and ammo.

Read less. Shoot more.

Zimbabwe PH Buzz Charlton, who specializes in elephant hunting has a great DVD out entitled "Hunting the African Elephant."

He shows many elephants being shot and shows great info on shot placement and describes many of the shots as they are seen on the DVD. A refrain heard often is, "If the hunter had been using a rifle that shot a 500gr bullet, this elephant would have dropped..." And one where a tuskless cow charges and Buzz narates, "Thankfully the hunter was using a (Can't recall the cartridge but the rifle was a double) shooting a (Can't recall but it was a big bullet)..." as the elephant, drops and skids within a few yards of the hunter's feet. The elephant wasn't dead, just knocked down and the hunter killed it with his second shot.

Buzz uses a 416 Rigby, but I have heard that he was switching to something larger. There was one scene where Buzz shoots a charging cow and misses the brain but turns the charge, the elephant does not drop and his narative goes, "...if I had been using a rifle with a 500gr bullet, this cow would have dropped..."

So, at least one very experienced pro doesn't think the 416's shooting 400's is really good elephant medicine as far as knock down effect or stopping effect.

On 500gr vs. 450gr solids out of a 458wm, well I have used both 500gr Woodleighs at 2050fps (two elephants) and at 2145fps (~ four elephants) and the 450gr North Fork flat nose solid at a modest ~2200fps (~six elephants), loaded for regulation and not ultimate velocity and not every shot has been a perfect brain shot. Total of twelve elephant. I can see no difference in the striking effect or knockdown effect of the Woodleighs at 2145fps and the North Forks at 2200fps. There is a huge improvement with the NF's and the Woodleighs at 2145fps over the Woodleighs at 2050fps, which I think are close to marginal for elephants.

Regarding performance on buff, the Woodleighs are about perfect at either speed, the flat noses penetrate a bit more than required. I've never shot a buff with a soft. Shot four buff total.

Out of a bolt 458wm rifle, I think the 450's are the go to bullet. Another 100fps are available over what has proven really great in my rifle, whats not to love about that.

When speaking of 200yds, well, that isn't 458wm range for me since my 458wm has only express sights. But 100yds or so is still express sight range and there isn't enough drop to worry about even at the speeds I'm shooting with either the 450's or 500's. I see no reason to shoot buff at any range past maybe 50yds max, at least in the terrain of the Zambezi valley. Elephant range is well inside of that and hopefully between 10 and 15yds. So I'm happy to live with express sights only.

If your 458wm had QD scope mounts, it would surely do fine for any game out to 200yds or so, which in my book is plenty of range. For a second lighter rifle, I use a 375H&H shooting 300gr softs and solids. Should there be an issue with my 458wm, the 375H&H is legal but marginal for elephants and fine buff medicine. Trajectory of the 375H&H out to 200yds is fine as well. A fellow from out west who is more accustomed to longer ranges might find he would like a flatter trajectory for some of the antelope, but I'm no long range shooter and 200yds is damned far for me.

JPK

I have a friend out east in New Brunswick, who worked at The Rift Valley Academy in Kenya since the early sixties until his retirement a couple of years ago. Up until hunting was shut down in Kenya, he hunted elephant each year and took some 60 to 80 pounders. His rifle was one of the original M70s "African", with 25" tube, I believe. He used nothing but Winchester factory 500-grain solids. He never reported any kind of difficulty or failure. I believe they were advertised at 2130 fps, or thereabout, and were RNs. He shot a lot of eles and financed his trips, with family, back and forth to Canada every three of four years. Our two families were close back then. I recall many of his accounts. He also killed many buff with the softs and solids.

I shoot a 458 Win in a CZ550 and it will likely never see Africa. But, I know what it's capable of ballistics wise. It's now loaded with 350TSXs at 2700+fps for bear and moose.

JPK: Your posts have made a lot of sense, along with Phil Shoemaker and John Wood. What I fail to comprehend is all the excitement over the Lott which exceeds the Win by less that 100 fps with the same slugs, while the 458 Win today is easily capable of 2200 fps from 500-grainers in 24" barrels and the right powders. And, in no way are the pressures excessive or the loads severely compressed. In my CZ I can easily match the Lott if wanted with handloads.

CZ550,

Richard Harland and Ron Thomson, both Parks Rangers in Rhodesia used the 458wm and the Winchester solid ammo and reported no issues with the ammo. They both did quite a bit of culling work. Between them they accounted for near 10,000 elephants, mostly cows, but many bulls as well. No flys on the 458wm or the Winchester solids! (BTW, both have published several books on their experiences, the ones that I've read have been great reads and informative as well.)

I wrote this this morning, "Out of a bolt 458wm rifle, I think the 450's are the go to bullet. Another 100fps are available over what has proven really great in my rifle, whats not to love about that." And this is true, but the introduction of the flat nose steel jacketed Hornaday makes me want to add, "450gr flat nose mono solids, or the 500gr flat nose Hornaday steel jackets solids are the go to bullets..."

JPK

Since originating this topic, I killed my first buffalo in the Zambezi Valley. I loaded a "soft point" (Barnes 450 grain TSX) in the chamber and 450 grain monolithic flat point solids in the magazine for follow on shots. Both attained a muzzle velocity of 2250 fps without pressure signs. A solid, fired into the buff's rear, was later found in its shoulder. That's about 6 feet or so of penetration. That's all anyone needs.

IndyCA35;

Congrats! And do we look for pics?

That's awesome penetration!

CZ550:

Give me a few days to figure out how to post them after I get caught up with my job etc.

JPK<
I had to smile when I read this after the discussions we have had over the proper weight for a rifle in a given caliber. I have a Lott that only weighs 8.65# with scope. I tend to save it for the 300 to 350 grain loads for pigs ect it is still pretty snappy.
I do agree that the lott is the way to go. I have shot .458 factory back when it first came out that didn�t make 1850 over a coronagraph and felt like it had a slight hang fire situation. The new ammo is much better and the powders available today are much better than back then. I probley wouldn�t hesitate to use a load like Hornady�s �Heavy Magnum� at a advertised 2260. I still would be happier with a Lott.
Bill

Indy,

What load were you using for the TSXs?

As you know, I'm a 458wm fan. If you've got one, you've got more than enough, especailly with a good reload. Mine shoots 500's at 2145fps and isn't loaded anywhere near max, and that load works very well with ellephants.

But if your building a rifle, it might as well be a Lott.

Rifle weight is proportional. a 9 1/2 - 10lb 458wm is about rifle in my book. But if your going to use Lott loads in your Lott, it ought to go 10lbs.

A 450/400 9lbs, a 416 9- 9 1/2... A 375H&H over 9lbs wights more than it ought to....

First, I will caution EVERYONE to work up to my load in YOUR rifle. It showed no pressure signs in my post-64 Model 70 but might in some other rifle.

I used new cases, Federal 215 primers, and 72.0 grains (I weigh every charge) of AA2230 with either the 450 grain TSX or the 450 grain North Fork flat-nosed solid. Velocity chronographed 2250 with both.

Another caution: North Fork warned that flat-nosed solids can cause feeding problems in some rifles. They didn't in mine.

2250fps with the North Fork flat nose solids would be exellent elephant medicine, or for anything else deserving a solids.

JPK

Indy,

Thanks for the pics and the report on your Zim safari. Enjoyed it very much.

In less than 2 wks I head north for 16 hrs for my moose hunt. 4 to 4 1/2 hrs to Sudbury to meet my partner. My van will stay there and my gear will be transferred to his 1-ton. We pull a camper, ATV, etc, for another 12 to 14hrs, to a spot we've been to a few times before, about 1hr north of Thunder Bay. We set up camp there and will spend the next week hunting a bull. I have the tag but we each can hunt over my tag as long as we stay in the same general area and in radio contact. We can also take a calf if the opportunity presents itself. But that will be an afterthought.

My primary rifle will be the CZ550 in 458 Win loaded with the 350TSX at around 2700 fps. I was at the range today and sighted it at about +2" at 100 yds and it's only - 8.3" at 300 yds. That's flat shooting, and very pleasant to shoot, I might add. As a backup, I'll probably take my 300 Win Mag with a synthetic stock for any really nasty weather. It's loaded with 190 Hornady's at 3065 fps. We also have bear tags and there are some good ones in that area. He will take a couple of his many 35s(You can check him out at 35cal.com).

Will report when we get back from our Northern Ontario "safari".

I often read that AA 2230 is the powder of choice for the .458 Winchester, but I also read the disclaimers and primer popping stories. Can anyone share their AA 2230 powder recipies for 500 grain bullets for the .458 Winchester? It would be appreciated.

Thanks Indy.

Of course, load development starting low and working up is very important. The problem I have found is that there is very little information available on TSX bullets. The Barnes manual only lists data for 1 or 2 powders per bullet.

For load data for 500gr bullets refer to the Hornaday manual. The 500gr Hornaday steel jacketed solids (new flat nose version) are beginning to earn an excellent reputation in Africa. I've heard that the soft point is still too soft though, so some other alternative might be better for a soft. I use Woodleigh softs and they have performed well when I have used them.

For solids I use the 450 North Fork flat nose and the 500gr Woodleigh solids. Both work well and will do the job, but the North Forks provide the greater penetration. My 500gr solids run 2145fps and the 450 NF's run ~2200fps.

My 500gr solids load is a medium load of AA 2230 in the Hornaday manual, to which I was referred by Woodleigh. It has proven more than adequate for elephants or buff.

AA 2230 has proven temperature insensative and there have been no issues with the powder in high heat, well above 100*.

My load was pressure tested and proved well below max.

I stopped giving actual loads publicly over the internet after some fellows swapped bullets without starting lower and working up. If you PM me I'll give details, but really, the Hornaday book is a great source for 458wm data.

JPK

ODay450,

I don't think you intended to say what you did: "The Barnes manual only lists data for 1 or 2 powders per bullet." Actually, they list 6 powders for each of the 4 bullets designed for the 458 magnums.

I use the 350 TSX, but they only list that for the Ruger No.1 in 45-70. There's no reason not to use it in a 458 magnum, however.
But I have loaded the 450 X, the predecessor to the 450 TSX.

As mentioned by JPK, Hornady's manual is tops.

albertan,

Read the very first post of this series. I have fired some 500 grain Barnes monolithic solids at a chronographed velocity of 2200 fps with the same load I use to get 2250 with the 450 grain bullets. No noticeable pressure signs, though obviously the psi would be higher than with 450s.

Watch out for "maximum loads" in loading manuals with this caliber. As detailed in that post, I fired a shot loaded one grain under the maximum and got a ridiculously high velocity with a sticky bolt lift and marks on the case head.

There is no reason to try for higher than 2200 with a 500 grain bullet. 2150 will work just fine.

Also note JPK's warning about substituting one bullet for another and using the same loading data.

I used 450s on my recent dangerous game safari in Zimbabwe because (a) there is a lot of evidence that the flat point shape allows a 450 solid to penetrate deeper than a 500 with the traditional round nosed shape, (b) it recoils noticeably less, (c) Barnes TSX bullets don't come in 500, and I wanted both solids and softs to shoot to the same place, and (d) if one is worried about powder compression, which I am not, the 450s are a little less compressed than the 500s.

My loads are slightly compressed, but much less compressed than some shooters use for long range competition at Camp Perry.

I don't know what disclaimers you are referring to and have never experienced or heard of primer popping with AA2230. Maybe someone was trying to eke out the last bit of "high velocity," a practice not recommended with this cartridge.

There is a 500gn TSX. But for most 458 magnums it's way too long and eats up too much powder space. Terry Wieland complained of that even for his 458 Lott.

But, there are at least a couple of exceptions to that. 1)The 460 Weatherby, and 2)my 458 Win which can be loaded to a COL of 3.75", crimped into the bottom cannelure of that bullet, giving more powder room than the 458 Lott loaded to a COL of 3.6". For anyone interested in a CZ550 in 458 Win, it can be loaded to a max COL of 3.8", without any modifications.

When I purchased that rifle 16 months ago, that was a selling feature for me. Although, at the time, I didn't know for sure how long I could seat the bullets. Now I know. It's ideally suited for the Barnes Banded Solids and TSX's. The more I use it, the more I love it. As noted above, it'll go moose hunting to Northern Ontario in a few days. All of that said to promote the 458 Win, regardless of COL, and the CZ as an exceptionally fine rifle for Africa AND North America.

I agree and stand corrected. The powders listed are not one's I've ever used and I didn't have it in front of me when I posted. I remembered that I thought it was useless.

It would have been more correct to say that the powders listed are limited and, in my experience, not common. I'm biased in that I've been disappointed by the Barnes Manual all along.

Certainly is a lot of "passion" here over the .458! That's a good thing! It helps keep our sport alive.

I have a CZ in .458 Win., and as CZ550 noted, the throat is unusually long in those rifles, allowing the handloader to seat bullets farther out. That pretty much eliminates the compression issue. Mine loves 72 grns. of H4895 under the 450 grn. TSX. This load gives me a consistent 2225 fps., and 1 1/2" groups at 100 yds., and shoots to the same point of impact whether it's 100 degrees or 15 below. While I have never killed an animal with this rifle, my common sense leads me to believe this load would be up for any challenge that presented itself, and I would be confident in it.

Keep the passion guys! I've enjoyed the read!

I was looking for loading data for the 458 Win and 2230 and I found this thread... what a great read... I am a novice with the 458, I have a 458 Win Mag built on a long (375 length) Sako action with a 22 inch Mag-na-ported barrel. I loaded some 450 TSX bullets with H322 a grain or so over published max ( I seated my bullets out exposing the first band)and used them on a nice bull moose at about 150yds. They performed excellently and I even recovered one that passed through about 6 ft of moose! I am very impressed with the 458 and find it much nicer to shoot than my 300 Weatherby!!! I got it because we have very large brown bears at extremely short ranges here and you can't have too much gun here!!

Old Ray sure did give me some belly laughs while reading thru this old thread..Guy was so full of $hit..

Gems like "I was hunting in Africa when you were still on the tit" While in the early days of internet forums Ray wrote that his first trip to Africa was in the late 90's..The guy was a bag of wind.

Glad you liked the thread. CZ550, who used to post here, did a lot of work on the .458 and published a booklet about four years ago. Perhaps you can PM him. He also has a blog: www.bigbore.ca. Lately he's been experimenting with the 9.3x62.

Since 2008, I did some other work and concluded two things:

1. AA2230 is the best powder for heavy bullets though H335 is close.

2. I can get 2700 fps with the 350 grain TSX and no pressure signs (but using H4198. Unfortunately I cannot get this bullet to impact in the vicinity of 450 grain bullets. So it's use one or the other, depending on the game, on any particular hunt.

You should also read the nearby thread on using the .458 for plains game.

Informative thread Indy, I haven't used the AA2230 powder but get an easy 2150 fps with H-322 and 500 gr bullets in my old 24" barreled tang safety Ruger African.

Gunner

72gr. of AA2230 and any of the North Fork 450gr. bullets or a 450gr. Barnes FN Solid is where I stopped! No need for anything else.

Been thinking about the 450 gr TSX's for everything 458 FOst.

Gunner

Am thinking that it's going to offer a bit of "over-penetration" on these East Texas white tails, but I'm going to use my .458WM anyway.

Ed

A "BIT" of overpenetration? LOL

Gunner

My first hunting load for the .458 Win was 74 grains of H4895 under the 450 grain A-Frame in Win brass. It was compressed so heavily that seating the bullets collapsed the odd case. Velocity was a tiny bit over 2200 fps, and groups would cut cloverleafs once in a while. 10 Australian buffalo dropped to this load.

When I finally got some A2230, the same velocity was achieved with 74 grains and no compression to speak of. Pressures seemed very mild, so I creeped the charge up a grain at a time until I got to 2350 fps at 78 grains. The same 9 cases were loaded 6 times apiece at this level, extraction was effortless and the primer pockets were still tight, but anyone trying that load is on their own.

Still haven't shot a buff with the faster load, so whether it will make any difference is debateable.

AA2230 is definitely the powder for the .458 in my opinion and experience. I like 72 grains with a 450 grain North Fork solid or TSX (depends on application) bullet. 2250 fps in a 22" barrel. You don't need more. I killed an elephant and a buffalo with that load.

Caution: It was safe in my rifle but maybe not in yours. Work up slowly.

I don't understand why the factory ballistics are so lame.