I haven't heard much about this cartridge being used anymore. I know at one time it was very popular and prolific amongst PH's and animal control individuals alike. Has this cartridge recently lost the faith of the masses, or is Jack Lott's "newcomer" taking all of the limelight as of late?
I am selfishly asking this because I have had the opportunity to by a Browning Safari Grade (fabrique nationale) in said cartridge for some time, and I would hate to buy anything that is 'out of vogue'.;) The rifle itself is quite charming, though maybe a little light at 8lbs.
Let's hear it fellas.......

It may not be getting much press lately, but IMHO there's nothing wrong with the .458 Win Mag. (Full disclosure: I have no experience hunting any kind of dangerous game.) I'm currently having a custom .458 Win Mag built. Nothing fancy, just a solid working rifle. I'll probably load it like a "super" .45-70 / .450 Marlin and use it on feral hogs here in Texas. A 350 gr Hornady at around 2200-2300 fps should work great on hogs.

Here's an article from African Hunter magazine that you may enjoy:

What is wrong with the .458?
by Charlie Haley
http://www.african-hunter.com/WhatsWrong.htm

Cheers!
-Bob F.

With Current powders and ammo the 458 is a far better rifle today then it was when released!

There is nolonger any dust settling on the 458win mag. The Lot is a more powerful round, however I loaded mine to 2250 with a 450 grain bullet. You should have no issue getting 2100 with the same bullet form the 458 mag.

The famous 470 nitro was a 2100 fps cartridge with an approx 500 grain bullet not much difference eh!

At 8 lbs it might feel like you are shooting 3 inch magnums out of your 12 gauge. I had a Model 70 Super Grade that weighed 8.5 lbs and I thought that was a bit light during load development.
I'm curious what they are asking for the Browning Safari?
whelennut

Bob, thanks for posting the article by Charlie Haley, Good read.

http://www.african-hunter.com/WhatsWrong.htm

I got hit in the head by one when I was a kid. The guy thought it was funny giving people scope cuts with his .458 Ruger. I shot a Krieghoff double .375 H & H that was ten grand back 20 years ago that was a lot more pleasant. It reminded me of a double shotgun. The Win mag just killed me. I would consider a stack of recoil reducers in the stock and a nice pad. I'm such a wuss.

The 458 win is a poor choice and not a good dangerious game round. I collect browning safari grade rifles. Since you have no need to purchase it please PM me and I will buy it.
Thanks

A couple of more articles that may be of interest:

Beauty and the Beast
A serious look at a serious rifle!
Model 98 Mauser .458 Winchester Magnum
from Rifle Magazine, July-August 2003
by Phil Shoemaker
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=1043&magid=75

The .458 Winchester Magnum
Designed for Africa but All-American in its impact, this safari stopper is still a big bore to reckon with.
from Guns & Ammo, January 2005
by Stan Skinner
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/reloads/458winmag_122804/

Cheers!
-Bob F.

Guess what is the next Rifle I'm buying a 458 win mag of course ?

Well, the person I know is dear, and I think I will give him the $1100 CDN he has mentioned before. The wood is fantastic, and the blueing is as deep as I have ever seen. Here is the other funny thing about this rifle: it has never been tapped for a scope, and has dual folding island sights with an ivory front bead. He said he bought it that way from Eatons many years ago.
Any ideas on real worth?

With modern powders it is no trick to get 2250 fps with 450 grain bullets or 2100 with 500 grain bullets without excessive pressures or excessive powder compression. Personally, I think there is no need for the Lott.

With 450gr TSX @ 2200fps the .458WM is more than adaquate for buffalo. Last season in the Selous L1 my partner and I both carried .458WM, mine a Mauser his a CZ. and while his CZ was less than reliable mechanically both rifles loaded with identical loads @2200fps laid low our bulls.

If you were on the right side of the pond, I'd sell you this one...

what function problems with the CZ I was thinking seriously about it

luv2safari,

Looks like a good working piece how many rounds can the mag hold ? And taking the scope off how is the open sights ? Maybe you could break it up in small pieces and send it to me to be reasembled over here if only ???

Were you asking that of me? If so my partner's CZ Safari was prone to not ejecting a spent shell case. He had bought it as a used rifle and though I may be incorrect I doubt he put more than 5 boxes of ammo thru it prior to the trip.
As we faced his wounded buff he shot it a second time, and the rifle did not eject as he worked the bolt. I was able to free the spent shell case with my Leatherman and give him back the rifle so he could finish what he started.

REM338WIN:
If you are a hand-loader, 2150fps with a 500gr bullet is not a big deal with todays powders. Or, purchase Hornady factory loads listed at 2260fps.

The loads in my M-70 are running 2185fps (across the screens) I have loaded them to 2280fps. The lower velocity is more accurate in my rifle. Plus the fact I have hunted in temps as high as 102F in Zimbabwe, and the 2185fps velocity has not given any pressure problems. Viz; extraction, flatened primers, etc.

My rifle weighs (loaded) just a smidge over 10#, and the recoil is managable. Obviously, an eight pound Browning .458WM is more comfortable to haul around; shooting it, however, might be a memorable experience. Just a thought, since I have not attempted same.

Don't sell the Win Mag short...it still gets the job done.

I wouldn't be scared off the CZ's because of this report; any rifle that hasn't been thoroughly checked can fail when being operated under stress. If you buy a CZ, I would highly recommend sending it to American Hunting Rifles (www.hunting-rifles.com) for their package which includes a new trigger, three position safety and straightening the bolt handle. AHR will slick up the feeding and perform function checks as part of that package and for 500 bucks it's a heck of a deal. With that package, assuming you're buying new, a CZ 458 will run you about 1350 bucks, which is just below the Ruger RSM.

Thanks. I had a friend whohad both a 602 in 458 and a 550 in 375 and they were fine rifles after he had the stocks changed.
Randy

I have seen this rifle shot with 600gr Barnes Originals, and that was memorable. .
I would likely have a 1lb Merc-Decelerator installed. I also believe that a 500gr at 2100 would work as desired. I would probaly try to get my hands on some Rhino's if possible also.

I'm inquisitive as to the load that included the 600 gr bullet. I load mine with 71.5gr H4895 and a 450 gr BTSX the bullet it is a compressed load though not too much. I'd think a 600gr round nosed bullet moving at 2000fps would really be compressed, but possible.

Medicman - When I first got my CZ 550 459 Lott, the action was VERY stiff. I put JB Bore Paste on all the bearing surfaces and ran the action about 200 times (followed with a thorough cleaning). I have about 200 rounds through mine without the following problem; several friends who have the CZ Lott's have had their stocks crack and split around the tang area.

I would not hesitate to buy another one. I shoot over the iron sights and I can get about 1 to 1.5 inches standing, off-hand at 50 yards. Plus it is just a bucket of fun to shoot the big boy. 10 rounds and you feel like you got something worthwhile done that day.

I am considering getting one in .505 Gibbs. Does anyone have any CZ experience with that caliber?

I'm not a .458 fan, never will be, as I believe it simply lacks enough powder capacity and thus its design was wrong from the get go, else it wouldn't be such a cussed and discused round that creates such long tedious arguements between the masses...

However, I submit that properly handloaded its a perfectly good caliber, kills well and not worth getting into an arguement over. if i had one that I liked I would simply have someone lengthed the chamber and the magazine box a tad and call it my .458 Lott..I would load it to 2200 FPS, get less pressure by a lot (pun) and be happy as a church mouse..Its a terribly simple solution..

OR,

I like the CZ set triggers, but the rest would make one a heck of a nice rifle. My first one in 416 Rigby cracked the stock on the third shot, sent it back to Kansas for a new one...GLASSED! It was an excellent gun for the money and functioned perfectly. My second one had double crossbolts and was glassed when I got it. It was OK in all respects. I was sorry to have to sell them to pay med bills. I would get another, if I needed one.

medicman and MoccasinJoe,
Since I am the partner MoccasinJoe is discussing,and since we don't quite remember this the same way,I'll put my two cents in here.
1) my notes show I put 238 rounds through that rifle before leaving for Africa,plus another 3 to sight in at camp.
2) first shot at buff at right around 100 yds,2nd at 20-25 yds.,so 243 rounds before the malfuntion.
3)I remember the loaded round (Barnes 450 triple x)going catywampus and jamming, the tip angled left as the problem,not a failure to eject.
4)My cousin and I put another 70 rounds through that rifle after I got back home with no problems ,plus the PH fired three in the air to move some lions out of our way to the airstrip to come home.So counting my last two to finish the buff,that's 75 after the jam with no problems.
Granted,the jam came at a most innoportune time,but it was the only one I experienced.
That action and the magazine are long enough to feed .458 Lott.The fact that the round was jammed diagonally,case head right rear,bullet point left front,would indicate that the case head was not picked up solidly under the extractor.I hate to admit it,but the likelihood is that I may have short stroked it just a hair.Joe was johnny on the spot with the leatherman,and did help me clear the action quickly,but I remember the problem as having been the loaded round,not the previous fired case.
Besides all the rounds that I actually fired,every one,plus the sixty some odd rounds I still have was function tested through that action.By my count that's about 700 loaded .458 Winchester rounds that functioned through that rifle with the one failure to feed.Counting the feeding but not firing.close to 570 rounds through the action before the failure.
Before I ever attempt to use it on dangerous game again,I will have a good gunsmith slick it up for function.
Hope that gives everyone a clearer picture.

I thank you for the further info. Some suggestions regarding cross bolts and glass bedding were already planned no matter what rifle selected. Your experience falls into line with my friends two rifles that I have used. I, like you, function test all reloads or factory before ever the field is experienced. With dangerous game this step is necessary. Prove the weapon, prove the man, then go hunt.

Randy

Not to belabor the point,but the .458 Winchester and the .458 Lott in the CZ 550 seem to be built on the same action and the same magazine.I loaded several rounds with the TSX way out,to duplicate the length OAL of the Lott,based on info two other campfire members with the same rifle had forwarded to me.
The rounds worked through the mag and chambered slick as you please.
With a long bullet like that,seated out,it should be theoretically possible to get enough powder under it to pretty much duplicate Lott loads,and still be able to have enough bullet in the case to hold it securely and crimp it thoroughly as well.I cycled and fired those rounds without a problem.They were loaded slightly hotter than the 71.5 of H4895 that MoccasinJoe and I had standardized on,73.5 grains I believe,but they were still in the upper range for the winchester as opposed to true Lott loadings.
I haven't been able to get my hands on any Lott brass,so I don't know if that would chamber,but the leade is definately long enough for that OAL.I suspect that extra overall length,just before the projectile actually enters the chamber might have been part of the problem.
At any rate,I haven't been able to get that jam to repeat,even with a couple hundred rounds loaded with Remington .458 RNSPs loaded for practice,which is even shorter than the TSX loaded for standard .458 OAL.If I were to contemplate DG hunting again,I'd be sure to have the inside surfaces of the rails slicked up,as that's where the nose of the bullet hung up,and remember to operate the bolt smartly,which admittedly I don't think I have always done in practice,though at the time,I thought I had done in that situation.

If I remember correctly back in the late 1980S,the then new .416 Remington Magnum trumped the .458 Winchester Magnum,and sent it off to the side of the Magnum road,then the gun writers buried the .458 Winchester by trashing it with negative press.

I load my Model 70 down to Marlin 45-70 Max loads for Deer&Bear, I never had one get up or run.

Very...interesting...

It so happens that if a .458 Winchester is loaded with 400 grain bullets, like a .416 Remington, and if both are sighted in at 150 yards, the .458 will stay within 3" of the .416 trajectory out to 300 yards.

It also so happens that the .458 can be loaded with 500 grain bullets for the big stuff and the .416 can't!

So who trumps whom?

The firearme companies should have invented the .416 first. That way the .458 could have been their "improvement."

I just got one of those monthly e-mail updates from Barnes Bullets. They are announcing a new 350 grain .458 caliber bullet that should give the .458 Win Mag some additional velocity with a toughly constructed bullet. Odessa

"This is a 10-shot target featuring one of our new bullet introductions for 2008. Would you believe it�s our .458 caliber 350-grain TSX? This is a 1/2″ group! We frequently see extraordinary accuracy with our big caliber bullets."

"This is an interesting story. When Fred Barnes was mentoring my father in the early years, one day he noticed a target hanging on Fred�s wall with five .458 caliber 500-grain Barnes FMJ�s strung through a wire hanger in a crude sort of necklace fashion. The target had a 100 yard 5-shot group that measured 1 1/4″. Randy remarked �What�s the big deal? This isn�t a great group.� Fred explained he shot this target with the original .458 Winchester Magnum proto-type rifle he had sent to Winchester. According to Fred, Winchester sent the rifle back, and introduced the cartridge a few years later with some slight variations. Anyway, he pulled the rifle out of the corner one day and fired a bullet at a clean target. Then each year for the next four consecutive years he fired one 500-grain Barnes FMJ at this target, from this rifle, on the anniversary date of the first firing and recovered the bullets. Incidentally, Fred built this rifle on a Mauser 98 action and we have it here at the factory today. I crack a smile every time I see it and think about the history behind that old gun.

My dad was re-telling this story to me not that long ago and chuckled �Fred was always doing off-the-wall things like that or coming up with a new something or other he wanted to test.� Well dad, I guess that�s what STILL makes our company great, isn�t it! You always say �Ten ideas in the hopper�� And Barnes is STILL the innovator.

-Jessica Brooks"

I've used the 458 Win. Mag. before in Tanzania on buffalo, hippo, and zebra with 500 gr. Trophy Bonded solids @ 2100 fps. MV, and I've also used the 416 Rem. Mag. with 400 gr. Swift A-Frames @ 2400 fps. MV as well as 370 gr. North Fork solids & softs @ 2470 fps. MV. Both cartridges and all of these loads have been absolutely devastating, and to say that one worked well while the others didn't would be rather ridiculous.

Even so, no matter how much us 416 fans love our rifles, a properly-loaded 458 Win. Mag. is still more rifle, and those big 500 gr. bullets clobber the biggest stuff harder and have the weight (and thus, momentum) to penetrate deeper, on average.

I still think that good 500 gr. bullets loaded to 2100 fps. or better get the most performance that the 458 Win. Mag. has to offer, and with today's powders, that's not all that tough to achieve. In many ways, the 458 Win. Mag. is today a better cartridge than it's ever been before, especially with much more suitable, modern powders and contemporary bullets, and especially with modern, high-performance factory loads (like Winchester's new 500 gr. Nosler Part. & solid ammo promises to be), the 458 Win. Mag. ain't no slouch, and many of the old objections to it are somewhat obsolete.

Do I think that the bigger 458s like the Lott, Dakota, and Weatherby are still fundamentally better?

Yes I do, but all of them still burn more powder and kick harder than the 458 Winchester does, plus the man who can find a good buy on an older, high-quality factory 458 Win. like a Browning Safari or Model 70 can certainly tune-up, adjust, load for, and make hum to the point of having a totally sufficient dangerous game rifle that'll get any job done, from hunting lions to elephants.

A few years ago, I sold my old Model 70 Classic 458 Win. Mag. to a good friend and hunting partner, and a short time later one of our mutual friends bought a Ruger Magnum 458 Lott. It terms of handiness, balance, and light carrying weight, that old Model 70 with its 22" bbl. is a far more user-friendly and practical rifle to carry than that Ruger Lott is, and if I had the choice of either one of them to select for an elephant hunt (long hikes day-in and day-out), I'd grab that Model 70 in a heartbeat.

Another good reason to go with the 458 Win. Mag........

AD

I have to agree with Allen, his analysis covers it all.

But I'll mention that getting 500gr bullets to 2150fps and beyond, while staying within book loads, is no trouble with a couple of today's powders, especially AA2230.

I'll also add that flat nose monometal solids like the North Fork or the GS Custom in 450grs outperform the 500gr solids, with far greater penetration and no loss in apparent impact effect. The 450's can run a good bit faster. I run the 500's at 2145fps muzzle velocity using AA2230 and the 450's at 2200fps using H4895. Neither load is anywhere near max and neither has proven temp sensative. Both loads are completely adequate and more for buff or eles, the 450's get the nod for eles because of the greater penetration. I've knocked down or down and out several eles with less than perfect brain shots with both loads, stopped a charge with the 450, and that shot wasn't perfect either.

JPK

Indy,
that only says part of the story, it sounds good but its not a fact by any means...Sectional density, is a very important part of any DG round and a short stubbey 458 will not penetrate well enough for buffalo and elephant..The only way a .458 qualifies IMO for a DG round is with a good handload and a 500 gr. bullet that is long enough to have sufficient penetration. The monolithics can change this according to some, but then they can do the same for a .416 so the equasion never changes...By the same token I won't shoot 300 gr. bullets in my .416 even though they have the same velocity as a 300 win or something on that order.

A 350 or 400 gr. .458 is more of a ball than a bullet IMO...however I speak for myself and have no quarrel with those that choose to do otherwise.

atkinson,

I know about sectional density but what about JPK's contention that the flat point shape of 450 grain North Forks creates an effect that lets them penetrate deeper than Kynoch-shaped 500 grain round noses which have better sectional density? In other posts, JPK has actually shot animals with North Forks to prove this, IIRC. Also, there have been some theoretical studies about this posted on various boards, though personally I trust the people who have used them better than the theoretical studies.

Irrespective of shape, the sectional density of the 450 is over 300 and I can get 2250 fps with no pressure problems. From what I have read, that should put my .458 easily into the DG range.

The 450 grain .458 bullet has slightly better sectional density than does the 300 grain .375, slightly lower velocity, and 50% more weight; also slightly less sectional density than the 400 grain .416. What's wrong with that?

The only problem is that North Fork went out of business. I only have 44 of these solids left. Fortunately, I have the load worked up and I keep very thorough notes. The North Forks shoot 1.0" lower than 450 grain TSXs in my rifle at 100 yards, so I don't even have to waste any confirming my zero. 44 might last many years.

It ain't a theory! 450gr North Frok flat nose solids at 2200fps far outpenetrate 500gr Woodleighs at 2145fps. This has been the case with every 450 shot vs every 500 shot. The issue of greater penetration is resolved, at least for me, but how much greater pentration? My measurements and experiments in elephants leads me to lean toward believing that its in the neighborhood of 40%. But so many North Forks exited that I don't have enough of a sample to be really comfortable with that assesment.

500grs, who post here and elsewhere has also done extensive test, more extensive than mine. He finds a lesser advantage, in the areas of 15% IIRC. But many of the test he tried were equal weight flat noses vs equal weight round noses at the same velocity. So it seems that the flat noses gain advantage through speed rather than mass. But I am unaware of any tests in real game or ballistic gell designed to smoke this out.

Does indicate why moving to 450gr solids in the 458wm results in such a phenominal increase in performance though. The fellow who turned me onto the 450 North Forks finds the same remarkable increase in performance in his 450NE No2, a rifle not limited by its cartridge case capacity - the 450NE No2 has an enourmous case thal ALWAYS requires a filler - but rather a rifle whose velocity is limited by the pressure it can withstand and also by how the two barrels were regulated (same issue regarding regulation for my 458wm DR too, which is why my 500's are limted to 2145fps and the 450's limited to 2200fps.))

From 500 Grains tests, I would be very confident shooting GS Custom flat nose mono bullets, btw.

On lighter weight non DG bullets, used for trajectory improvement. I am a fan of keep it simple stupid. One weight bullet for each rifle on safari. Then your selection is limited to soft or solid. Better a more arched trajectory than the wrong weight bullet up the spout or in the magazine. But I suppose you could keep the light weights "locked up" until all the DG for the trip is shot and then retire the heavies. Still I'd keep it simple.

And Indy, don't let Ray Atkinson fool you, he has been touting the 450gr North Fork cup points - not flat nose solids - for buff for years, so his line about 500's only is just argumentative bull.

JPK

No, but a lot more than that.

The last Safari with knockout wood that went thru my hands was sold for 1300 USD...and they made a lot of 270s.

With a special order like yours and its condition, I imagine it has significantly more value to the right collector, than to a hunter.

In my experience, Browning collectors tend to be shy on full disclosure.:)

North Fork 370 gr. .416 bullets penetrate and perform superbly, and I can't see that the North Fork .458s wouldn't work at least as effectively.

I surely do hope that someone starts producing North Fork bullets again, and that they are of the same quality as turned out by Mike Brady.

I'm hunting with North Forks again this season with my 416 rem. Mag., but unless these bullets come available once again, I'll be looking to work with something else after I'm back from this year's hunting........

AD

Add me here! They were about as good as anyone could make.

Taking over North Fork bullets would be a good second career for someone who is retired. I sense you would have to have a little more penchant for marketing than Mr. Brady had. Also, I suspect the business may have gotten away from him a little. Someone else could either raise prices or hire more help or both. Depending on how much machinery and facilities are involved, one could either move to Wyoming (hunting is good) or move the business elsewhere. You could probably get a small business loan from the govt.

End of advertisement. I hope somebody does that.

I love it when I get misquoted..I tested the Northforks before anyone ever used them and the 450 flat nose solids or cup points are fantastic bullets..

What I said was the 300, 350 and even the 400 gr. bullets are not long enough IMO and bullets without SD, tend to slow down quicker, penetrate less as they do not have the mass to push them IMO...especially in conventional bullets, but also in monolithics..reread my posts.

In monolithics I agree that is a good practice to go from the heavy bullet to the next bullet down such as from 500 gr. conventional to 450 gr. monolithics..but that is where you stop for dangerous game in a 458 cal...In a .416 you can drop to 350 gr. Monolithics but not to 300 gr. IMO...

So if you going to call BS then do the curtesy of reading the posts in full...

Ray: I'm with you or with anybody that is taken out of context or misquoted, but one of the benefits touted with Super Premiums is the theory one can go down in weight and still achieve or better penetration over a conventional bullet. I'd be willing to wager that say a 450gr TSX at say 2300 fps will handily out penetrate a 500gr Woodleigh at 2100. Thoughts? jorge

If you could buy a .22 short-only rifle or a .22 in which you could shoot both long rifles as well as the 22 short you would choose to buy the former and claim there is no need for the latter? It seems that claiming the opposite is the more rational. Just because better powders now make the 458 adequate to good doesn't make the Lott which can be a "458 Win" at lower pressures or a Lott (more) at 200-250 fps faster and shoot the Win version to boot less desirable. Plus rifles are of the same action length obviously and Weight.

The reason the Lott came into being was disappointment in the Win's performance which has now been improved. That improvement doesn't make the Lott redundant; it also makes it better.

I'll still take a .22 that will shoot the long rifle too and substitute the short if conditions warrant.

Gdv

are you sure the Lott and the Winnie use the same action...I'm not sure they do.

The 458 Win could be made a shorter action perhaps but the fact that in many present makes and models chambered for the Win cartridge all it takes to convert to a Lott is rechambering; I assume this shows that their magazines-the Win's-can handle the Lott too.

Gdv

You can convert a standard magnum action to the Lott by altering the magazine box and machining the underside of the rails; the conversion is similar to that done to convert a standard length action to the 375 H&H.

Yea, the 458 Win usually is made in a standard magnum action.

The Lott doesn't add 200-300fps. More like 100-150. If you doubt this, take a look at the Hornaday reloading manual. 2150fps is no big deal and 2200 and more is possible from the 458wm - all while using "book" loads and all thanks to today's powders.

This 100-150fps step up is significant though, imo. But it comes at a big price in recoil. Also, most Lotts are on magnum length actions, many 458wm are on standard length actions, again, not a big deal. Reliability of feeding with a 458wm in a Lott magazine is a question, the too long box can cause alignment and pick up issues. And the 458wm is ubiquitous, I have barrowed ammo in the field in Africa; the Lott may get there but it isn't there yet. You can make a light 458wm and live with it, but for the same recoil or even tolerable (for me), the Lott will have to weigh quite a bit more. More isn't always better. The 22 long rifle doesn't recoil meaningfully more than the 22 short, unlike the relationship between the Lott and the WM.

In my opinion, the Lott is unnessecary since the 458wm gives all of the penetration that is needed, and some, for elephants, so long as you use a flat nose 450gr solid like the former North Fork or the GS Custom. If you need to use round nose solids, then the Lott is going to make up for the shortcomings of round nose penetration.

I have both, btw. But I hunt with the 458wm (and flat nose North Fork 450gr solids.)

JPK

My .22 analogy might not have been the most representative of all aspects of the relationship it's true. While I've not had a 458 Win, CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD claims a Lott can get 2300 fps in a 22 inch barrel with a 500-gr bullet as mine does fairly easy. I shoot mine standing with good eye and ear protection and a shoulder pad all of which makes recoil tolerable with full loads out of my 9.5 lb rifle. Not having shot the Win, I'd like to get some full house loads for comparison, both for recoil and feeding issues if there are any.

Any appraisal of two cartridges like this in the same class both of which are effective on the intended game becomes much tinted by windows of experience the shooter/hunter has had, and the successes or failures too whether the cartridges/bullets fault or not.

I also find that the 450 grain bullets recoil noticeably less than 500 grain bullets. Also the North Fork 450 grain solids are a little more accurate than 450 TSX, 450 Barnes solids, or 500 grain Barnes solids. The Barnes solids have a pretty good flat meplat themselves, though not quite as flat as the North Forks. The 450 TSXs are "spitzers" (kind of fat spitzers). Perhaps because of this, they shoot about 1" higher at 100 yards than the 450 North Fork solids, though both chronograph the same.

IIRC, the Hornaday manual shows 2250fps with the 458wm, their steel jacketed solid, AA2230 and a 24" barrel. I load mine to 2145fps with 500 grainers because it is a double rifle and that is as fast as I can get it to shoot to regulation. Hornaday doesn't show much improvement with the Lott. No matter how you slice it, there ain't that much improvement, at least while staying within "book", ie pressure tested, loads. Hats off to powder munufacturers for making the 458wm what it was always suposed to be - but wasn't in the early years.

I would like a 9 1/2lb 458wm but I had my Lott built to 10lbs. 10lbs because that was what I'm willing to carry and you carry alot more than shoot. And I don't need to shoot 500 grainers at 2300fps to practice with. (But do need to shoot full house loads out of the double to practice with since they are needed to make the rifle shoot well. I have a 350 grain load that shoots to regulation but there is no percievable recoil reduction.)

And you right it is like arguing whether blonds or brunettes are more fun.

Rather than take the added recoil of shooting 500 grains at 2300fps I would choose 570 grains at 2150fps, aka the 500NE. More stopping power, better for elephants, plenty and some for buff. Alternatively, if I were going to go hunting with the Lott, I would really consider the 550gr Woodleighs, which have an excellent reputation for use on elephants when shot out of the Lott at 2150fps. They are a no go in the WM, simply not enough case capacity to make them perform. A 458wm with 500's loaded to an anemic 2050fps is more than sufficient for buff, and I killed three with that load before finding the right load with AA2230 to shoot well at 2145fps. 2050fps with the 500's is enough for elephants too, but barely imo.

FWIW, I find no dicernable recoil difference between the 450's at 2200fps and the 500's at 2145fps. Perhaps because I use different powders for the different weights. Also FWIW, the North Forks are much more accurate than the Woodleighs, but the Woodleighs are plenty accurate enough. I'm sure that GS Custom copper 450gr flat nose solids would perform similarly, though I haven't yet tried them.

JPK

I realize that on any buff or ele hunt one carries much more than he shoots and perhaps in quite warm weather too. Not intending to throw stones at the Win, My rational for the Lott, a case only about .3" longer than the Win, was to boot a 450-500-grainer at 2150-2200fps which is what the Win can do at full throttle, but do it easily and at lower pressures. As you know of the bucket load of English, big bore Epress or Nitro loads, very few deviate much from this weight bullet and velocity range. It is a proven formula over the history of recent DG hunting in Africa.

That you can shoot the Win is an added, not insignificant bonus, not to mention the flexibility (as the Win has) in handloading.

That's all.

Gdv

JPK, I think you have a better understanding of the 458 Win. Mag. than anyone I've ever read the posts of on these forums. Based on the way lighter 370 gr. North Fork solids & softs have worked for me in the 416 Rem. Mag., I'd feel totally confident with the lighter North Fork .458 bullets out of the 458 Win. Mag. as well. SOMEONE of time and resource needs to pick up that bullet line and then hire Mike Brady to run the production side for a while until those ropes are learned.

The 458 Lott's a fine and versatile chambering, especially since you can shoot regular 458 Win. Mag. ammo in a pinch. The biggest problem with the Lott is that many gunsmiths do not know how to properly rework the receiver and magazine system to optimize magazine capacity, perfect feeding, and efficient reloading, plus many of the magazine boxes are made of very poor steel that gets badly battered from bullet noses (especially solids) under recoil. Rifles like the Ruger Magnum are just-plain too heavy, and some of the imported rifles are too crudely built.......

AD

Roger Ferrell is one. This is an MRC barrelled action in 458 Lott, completely reworked.

Apologies, if this seems to be hijacking the thread but it seems pertinent to the 458 Win discussion.

Gdv

Roger has a fine reputation, and I think your 458 Lott is a very cool rifle......

AD

Goodnews
What kind of stock is that?

Thanks

McMillan Supreme.

I surely don't disagree except that the 458wm isn't running near full throttle at 2150fps (and do try the WM in your Lott before you have to rely on them feeding.) I'll note that I've had no temp sensativity issues with either H4895, which is an Aussie Defense Force powder specifically designed for temp insensitivity, or with AA2230, even in 115* heat in the Zambezi Valley in October.

The century plus bench mark and stalwart 450 NE has nominal performance numbers of 2150fps from the 3 1/4" and 2175fps from the No2 version, both with 28" barrels. Few 450NE rifles match this nominal performance. Both of these rounds used the 480 grain round nose solids. The 458wm, or the Lott for that matter, exceeds the "in the field" performance of the 450NE's with loads in the 2100fps range and 500 grain solids. And the 450 grain flat nose solids out perform the 500 round noses by quite a bit.

Either modern cartridge out performs the benchmark.

So, are blonds or brunettes more fun?

BTW, my Lott is built on an MRC action as well, but with a Kreiger 23" barrel and a nice English walnut stock. The magazine is modified to accept 4 down rather than 3 as well. And it is set up specifically to feed my 458wm loads too.

JPK

Both have their cheerleaders no doubt; I'd like to see a pic of your Lott. I prefer wood myself.

It is a pretty unusual situation that a rifle chambered for a certain cartridge can also accomodate another successful cartridge and one that is probably as ubiquitous in Africa as any.

Gdv

I am way behind on photos of my rifles. I recently picked up another really nice double rifle in another unpopular double rifle cartridge, the 375H&H. It is being "converted" to left hand now, with the cheekpiece removed, triggers twisted... Plus hopefully Joe Smithson QD scope mounts and bases added. I failed to get photos before it went to the shop... Likewise no photos of the Lott, or a new 257 Roberts, also on an MRC action... But I'm due out to the gunsmith soon so I'll get them soonest possible and then I'll open a new thread. The Lott and my 375 bolt rifle and the 257R are all there to get the radius of the grip straightened out. I've become a big fan of more open grips.

JPK

BTW, I thought of another pair of cartridges where the "standard" performer and benchmark works in the higher performance cartridge's chamber and the standard round is ubiqitous in Africa, "just in case." This pair consist of the 375H&H and the 375 Weatherby. Case length the same, just taper and shoulder different. Of course if you shoot a 458wm in a Lott you still have 458wm brass and if you shoot an H&H in a Weatherby you end up with Weatherby brass, but in a pinch, who cares?

I have found that a 458wm and a 375H&H are a great pair of cartridges for two rifles to take to Africa. Use the 458wm for the big stuff and the 375H&H for all else, knowing that if it comes to it you can do the whole trip with the 375H&H.

The fellow who travels with a pair of rifle in 458 Lott and 375 Weatherby is at least as well set up with even more redundancy and flexibility.

Right. 300 H&H in a Wby chamber too; not that helps much as the H&H is probably much less common than the Wby version. 375 H&H in a 375 Mashburn chamber too but that's neither here nor there.

Gdv