I have not seen anything like this in 40 plus years of booking hunts..

I am getting 10 to 25 emails a day from outfitters, mostly in Africa, but from all countries and the USA wanting a booking agent to pull them out of the fat..

Problem is were going to see a lot of booking agents, hunt consultants (same thing) fold up before this thing is over. I suspect some of the old timers will survive but the new guys on the block will probably just walk away from it, and go about their real jobs. Most of them book for free hunts anyway and they won't be able to do that for awhile in many cases..

This administration is effecting the whole damn world, and it just keeps getting worse as that glib talking idiot showman of a president prances around talking up the biggest con job since Enron...

It's just a sad state of affairs, but the upside is hunting is going to get cheaper, but no one but a select few will be able to afford it....

I guess I'll just hunker down, sell what I can, and wait it out. Been there before and it ain't my first Rodeo..And maybe, just maybe it will serve as a house cleaning and in the long run the industry will clean itself and return to normal..It happened like that last time, but we had a better man in the oval office last time. This time we have the three stooges, Obama, Palosi, and Reid...

The Outdoor Show in Harrisburg only had about 2-3 safari booking companies in attendance this year...Pretty sad. Didn't look like anyone was buying, either...

Ray,
Unfortunately, I am one of the ones that is being affected by this economy and am thus unable to take advantage of the great offers that are out there at the present time.

In your opinion, do you see any danger of many of these places that are currently offering discounted hunts actually going out of business and leaving hunters that perhaps signed on late in the game out in the cold, minus their deposits? Do you see a difference between Africa and North America?

By the way, I share your sentiments on our idiot in chief.

Test

Burner,
there were over 70 Africa hunting outfitters there , why would they need a booking agent ?
All the guys I talked to got at least one booking at harrisburg.
In their words better than nothing.
These next few years are gonna be tough and like Ray said there will be a weeding out process.

I didn't see that many of them. I was kinda surprised. I'm hoping it does get better. I felt bad for them, most of the safari guys were just standing around but the Sham-Wow booth(s) were packed.

If my bum hip could take the long flight's I'd be helping them out.

Don't know where you were, but there were probably at least 40 in the main hall & scattered around. The point is as Ray as stated the entire outfitting industry is in trouble. SCI's convention was down 33% & I was told by exhibitors that Dallas Safari Club was down at least that much. My SCI chapter in the Wash.,D.C. area just finished our outdoor show(I organized)& banquet which included hunt auctions. We made less on hunt auctions this year but more on exhibitors & silent auction items. We actually made more net profit this year than last. I would be very careful what outfitter I gave a deposit to. I would predict that many outfitters in the Western States will fold & some in Africa as well. I & most of my friends typically go on 2-3 guided hunts/year. This year none & probably the same for 2010.

Good News I think...NOW maybe the prices of hunts will stop increasing every year by 40%. This is the only good side to this economic crisis.

To address the question as to why these companies need a booking agent boils down to several things. They cannot book and hunt at the same time, and most prefer to use the booking agent. The complications of dealing with a client on the other side of the world with African communications is next to impossible..It works for both parties and the Safari companies prefer it for the most part..They all have the option of booking for themselves, that is not a concern to the booking agent. He gets a comm. for what he sells, end of story.

Add to that the fact that many clients prefer to work through a booking agent because the money stays in the USA until the last minute in a holding account, the booking agent has spent a lifetime picking and choosing the best safari companies he can find, it does not cost the client a nickle to get this kind of security plus the booking agent is or should be the answer to any questions you might have and can guide you to the hunter where he will turn you over to him. The booking agent is available for all complaints and has more control over refunds or settlements than any client simply because he is in a postition to cost the Safari Company some big bucks if he drops them over a client dispute...All of the Safari Companies know this, most clients that have hunted a lot know it, otherwise we would not be in business...

IMO, in todays economic conditions going through and agent is smart money, it's a safety net, not foolproof but pretty danm close if the client is in the right..

Yes, I'm prejudice as I am a booking agent, but that's my take on the subject, and its an honest approach to the subject.

Just the rest of the story as to why and how booking agents, hunt consultants, whatever you call us, have come about and become an industry within themselves..

If there was no need for us by the Safari Outfitters I assue you they would not be willing to pay our commissions, and hunters would not use us.

Ray,
My point was that there were 70 outfits at the show.
I agree a rep serves a valuble place in this business.
In a bad economy the buyers tend to gravitate to the deals and usually the best deals are found by dealing directly with the outfitter. That at least is the perception by many, I am sure that is not always the case.

Just an off topic question. Is there a booking agents assoc. ?
you know to police the ranks etc. ? just curious.

There are several booking agent assn's. but they are loose nit and really have no controls, much like outfitter assn. or even SCI for that matter..Ever try and get SCI involved in a bad outfitter case? They won't hardly do it...

I think most booking agents can get you the same deal that the outfitter does if the truth were known. It cost x dollars to do a Safari and that is the charge, some ingenious marketing just makes it look better as a rule:

Zimbabwe has an outfitter assn. that has been excellent in the past, but is probably pretty well casterated these days, but thats just a wild guess on my part..

Your best bet is how long the booking agent or outfitter has been in business, his reputation, his references, but word of mouth by those that hunt with him is probably your best bet, that and know where he lives so you can choke the living s--t out of him if you need to!

Your best deals come towards the end of the season to those who can jump on a plane and fly to Africa on a moments notice, usually taken advantage of by retired folks..

I daresay Mr. Atkinson has more experience in this area than many of us. Accordingly, I will defer to him: using a reputable booking agent makes sense (the operative word, of course, being "reputable"). As an example, a friend and I just returned from a five-day hunt in South Africa, which we purchased through Cabelas' "Outdoor Adventures." Cabelas has always done right by me,I have confidence in its reputation and customer service, and the hunt turned out exactly as advertised. Because we booked our hunt through Cabela's, we had someone to yell at, had it turned out otherwise. In short, a good booking agent is a sound investment.

We were just talking about this at work...several of us have been to Africa at least once...

If we knew we were gonna stay employed through '09, we'd go ahead and book hunts - it's a good time to go.

As it is we're just working hard staying employed and as of now I can only see as far as June - July....after that all bets are off.

Do you not think this will help the prices??? I think you will have some that have such a reputation that it will not hurt them.....the other side is small outfitters are going to be lost!

While doing the shows this year, I have had the opportunity to speak with a lot of outfitters from southern Africa about the 2009 season. Some of them have been here 10 to 12 weeks and many of them have spent upwards of 30,000 USD to fly here, fly around the USA, and stay in hotels eating meals out, and paying for the high cost of booths in each location. Most have spent upwards of 30,000 and several with a wife along have spent upwards of 50,000 USD for this business adventure. Some doing the SCI show were well above this expense.

This is a large chunk of cash to recover in a single season from the few foreign hunters that will actually go now with the econimic conditions. Imagine the rates needed to collect 30 to 50K over the course of a season!

Of the dozen or so outfitters that I know and visited with, more then half were here the whole time and did not book a single hunter, the remaining folks booked a few hunters each. The fella booking the most hunts had a 3000 dollar warthog, steenbok, blesbok wildebeest hunt for 7 days. But his trophy fees were about 30% higher then anyone else too. The hook was to get the hunters there on this cheap 4 animal hunt, and then hopefully make a few bucks on the added animals at an inflated price.

Imagine having come here to book 20-25 hunters and going home with ZERO hunters, after having spent 40K or more on this trip. How do you recover that? 40K USD is a mountain of money in RSA and Namibia. How do you stay in business with no hunters for a season?

The other side of the coin that many people seem to think is that the cost of safaris will drop and make it much more affordable. That's not exactly the case. There are still minimal operational costs and salaries. Going to the least expensive dirt cheap hunt with a starving outfitter will likely get you what your paying for. There are great outfitters with fair prices even in this difficult time, but once you get to the bottom you will likely not have the adventure or experience you think you were planning on.

It takes money to run a quality operation, and the less money these people have the less quality it will be. It's not rocket science to see this. I do think that at some point when we rebound from this in a few years time, that the game populations will be very strong, rather then the average of 60,000 trophies being exported from RSA per year, that number may only be 20-30,000 ( or less)which means many more older trophies over the coming years.

I personally do not see the economic conditions of the USA getting better with the current people running this. The ideas they have are clearly not right and this is no place for on the job training. Massive tax cuts and an elimination of capitol gains will kick start the housing market. I'm not sure how the government gives money away and thinks it will make things better. They have to collect that money from the people. Why bother collecting money from them only to give it back to others and assume this is going to somehow stimulate anything?

Hey I'm just a lowly PH not an econimist, but I don't think giving money to one person or group that you have taken from another person or group has ever improved anything. Remember give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime.

Americans need jobs, not handouts!

JJ,
The other thing is you have a certain segment of the trade ( outfitters and Agents ) that will look you in the eye and tell you they are doing real well even when you know better!! add them to the real equasion and the outlook gets even worse..but I believe this too will come to pass sooner or later, but with the present administration it will be later I fear.

Our congress, Sentate is comprised of idiots attempting to run big business when they cannot even run their own..They are lieing their a$$es off to the public and getting caught doing it. It is a case of second liar doesn't stand a chance. Then pres. bozo the clown goes on TV, He needs to be in Hollywood, not running our country. Now Iraan will get the bomb, ain't that a dandy situation, a madman with a bomb..

I see an end to the big shows and reliance on web pages and agents as the way things will play out. The trips to the US and Europe were working holidays for many...hard working holidays. It was the old way, and they'll need to get with the new ways. If the outfitters save all that travel expense and use it to hold costs in line for clients, maybe it will become win-win for the PH and client. The show promoters will be the losers, however.

With my income down by 50% and net wealth down by 70% from last year, I've completely discounted any thoughts of ever returning to Africa.

On the up side, we might not see all the N. American hunting being gobbled up by outfitters here. The trend to "pay to hunt your public wild game" may have the brakes applied. I sure hope so and hope these shysters who tie up access to public land get theirs...a boot up their collective azzes!

I'm not so sure agents will be phased out or almost eliminated from the guided hunting market. With the possibility of many outfitters in N.A. & Africa going out of business a reputable agent with their hands in the market seems like the way to go. The large shows like SCI & Dallas Safari Club will probably have a reduction in outfitters for a few years. I expect our outdoor show(SCI chapter) in Wash.,D.C. to expand for next year. We sold all our hunts, but at a reduced return. Many outfitters have already committed for next year. This area has not been affected economically as much as other parts of the US. However, our family personnel placement business has crashed & burned after we took a huge financial loss. I'm almost 70 & still work, but may never recover financially.

It dosen't bother me .I never could afford a hunt in africa ,I am retired and my income stays the same forever.

When I went to SCI this year, all I heard were "Things are not down!" "It just thinned out the tire-kickers" Well had to call B-S. It was down a good 30% in attendence and a few of my buddies in the booking business said they were down close to the same.

The problem here is this is far reaching, its not just in the US. It is the UK, EU and abroad. Things are going to have to get cheaper, or money will have to increase in value (inflation) along with wages for this eco-crisis to get any better.

I will hunt Africa this year or next if I run accross a great deal.

YOu think the world's current economic problems are THIS administration's fault? Are you serious?

Yeah they are, nobody in history has ever bailed out a slow economy by giving the poorest people money for nothing and punishing those who create the countries wealth by taking money from them to subsidize the bad behaviour of those making such bad decisions.

The problem was started during the Clinton years when the banks were threatened with descrimination lawsuits for not loaning minority and low income people money for homes. The banks were "forced" to do this by the agency known as ACORN. Barak Obama was the ACORN lawyer at the time. So many bad loans were written that the financial institutions supplying the banks with money (fannie may and freddy mac) had to sell these bad loans to companies like AGI. The democratic way of solving this was the trickle up theory, the republican way was trickle down(Regan years) so which one was the better plan? Cut taxes to stimulate manufacturing and home sales, or tax the hell out of every business and person with investment level wealth?

This congress better get what they want in the next two years cause the population of the USA is gonna vote out every single one of these losers that are ruining our country in the next mid term election.

Let me put this into perspective. The Bail out plan is so much money that every single man woman and child in the USA could get a 30,000 dollar check. Put another way it's so much money that it's more then all the American currency in circulation in the world today. Now this money is not coming from some kind of profitable endeavor. It has to be collected from tax payers. So how does spending this much money help when it just has to be collected back again? How is this concept lost on the idiots who thought of it? The bottom 40% of Americans pay no tax, so their tax relief comes in the form of an 1100.00 dollar check from Uncle Sam.

Explain to me how taxing the crap out of those creating wealth and then giving it to the bottom 40% for doing absolutely nothing grows the economy? Punishing the most successful people in this country removes incentive for investment, wonder why investments and the stock market is drying up now. Duh! You think that those bottom 40% are gonna be making infrastructure investments with their 1100 buck check?

How is giving somebody a puny little check one time gonna change their life? Give them a job, or some hope, and watch them grow.

As I said, give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach him to fish he eats for a lifetime!

Well said JJ

Not to be glib, but things are tough all over. When the World economy shrinks this much luxuries go out the window, and hunting is a luxury.

Wait and listen to the screeming when the various state game departments loose their revenue streams this season.

For years now I have hunted three or four states, but this year we plan on going duck hunting on our ranch, and doingmore ocean fishing (cheapest license).

This administration means the Democrats who took control oc COngress two years ago and set the ground work for the Obamanation we have now.

While I agree with your comments don't bank on a Republican controlled Congress. With the money Acorn(who ever heard of them before the past election), is receiving from taxpayers, & Move On.Org receives from the far left, I expect a bit of reshuffling in Congress, but the Dems to stay in control by a small margin. Obama will win reelection due to these organizations & his over all minority support. I expect the outfitter situation to worsen a lot in 2009 & 2010. I have a friend that owns a safari operation in SA. He grows various crops, raises sheep, has milk cows, & a few cattle to sell. He will survive because he inherited his ranch & is diversified. Some other African outfitters fit this profile, will down size, & survive. Most that lease concessions will be in trouble, unless they have a following of affluent clients. Many small/medium outfitters in the Western US also own ranches. It will be easy to simply close/bankrupt the outfitting business & go back to full time ranching. This may leave clients & creditors in the lurch. Many of the outfitters in Canada & Alaska simply offer hunts & all but the best financed may cease operation. Note I did not say the largest. We may be surprised by some of the large caribou, deer, & bear outfitters that go under fast. In my opinion hunts under $5000 will be the hardest hit. I expect 30-50% of these outfitters to be out of business by 2011. To the really affluent hunter this economic downturn is just an annoyance & will continue to hunt worldwide. JJ I believe you predicted a significent downturn in the safari business before the economy crashed. I believe you were right on & that in future years safaris for middle class Americans will be the exception. The glory days of Africa are behind most of us. Sad, but true.

That was great JJ. Well said!! I can't believe anyone can possibly think that the "steal-from-us" programs will ever work.
As far as hunting goes, I will spend money on hunting before anything else. You only go around once!!! See ya in June.

You took the words right out of my mouth. The man is in office 5 months and all of the world's problems are his creation? Now that is as simple minded as it can get.

The current party in power and made worse by a marxist at the head of same, they started this whole issue in the 90s. Bush was no help with his spending and late minute bailouts, but I think what Ray is saying and certainly supported by how Wall street is reacting, is what the current administration WANTS to do to private enterprise, so yep, no doubt about it they share the lion's share of the blame. My advice is to go and spend it now before the marxo-democraps take it. Love those democraps. jorge

I beg to differ with you Tony.

Before Obama, we had a recession. We have them every few years. This one was compared with the early 1980s.

Now we have the recession used as an excuse for Marxists (I cannot tell the difference between any definition of same and what "our" government is doing.) using the recession as an excuse for a left-wing permanant takeover.

The "stimulus" bill was mostly a reward for Obama's support groups. The Friday before it was passed, the Congressional Budget Office said that only a very little of it would help the economy, and that not until 2011.

Now we have all these other threatened or actual made up spending bills. Everyone knows they will "have to--we had no choice" raise taxes through the roof.

Meanwhile they are pushing a bill called EFCA, which will make union "membership" practically mandatory in private enterprise.

While this is going on, they are grabbing private wealth. I don't just mean taxing those who work hard and succeed. They have used public indignation at AIG to pass a 102% tax (state taxes being non-deductible) against those who agreed to stay and help put AIG right instead of fleeing the sinking ship. This morning's news says they are considering limiting salaries at all publicly traded banks. Can defense contractors be far behind?

I think they want maximum inflation because it eliminates the value of savings for those who have worked hard. Also higher taxes will become mandatory. If stocks go down in price that hurts their opponents and makes the "sheeple" more dependent on them.

Oh yes...not to hijack the thread. I was ready to put down a deposit on a $60K safari a month ago. I postponed it until 2010. Or later. As one who runs a substantial sized business, expanding or investing right now are the last things I would consider. We do not have a stable government of laws or stable business conditions. And last week I laid off a bunch of people...

The world changed the day Lehman went down. That you guys don't get this is what really scares me about the future. The US financial services industry packaged and resold bad assets called good ones all over the world, then they insured them against loss. This had nothing to do with the decision to lend money in poor areas.

The tremendous debt level of the American consumer is now unwinding and that is happenning no matter which of the Presidential candidates won the election. I expect virtually nothing would be different if McCain had won. The slide in the US economy is being felt all around the world, in many countries far worse than it will be felt in the US, Southern Africa is no different.

If you guys want to keep blaming the democrats for this go right ahead, makes no difference to me, all your politicians on both sides have their heads buried in the sand.

The fundamental issue here was the lack of regulation and oversight of the US financial sector, then when most of the western world saw how well that was working(sic) they went the same way and this "Made is the USA" problem has now consumed London, Paris, Frankfurt, Moscow, Sau Paulo, Dehli, Tokyo, Toronto...etc.

The US has now officially lost the right to tell the rest of the world how to run their economies.

1992, Ron Paul and other Republicans tried to reform the loose practices of Fannie & Freddie. They were blocked. After the Republicans won the House in 94, they tried again and klinton blocked them, he even admitted as much. Paul and McCain and Bush tried again in 02 and 05 and were blocked at every turn by democraps. The locus of our economic problems was all these firms investing in mortgage "bundles" that "toxic" assets embedded. Bottom line had the democraps not meddled we wouldn't be in the mess we're in now. And yes Bush overspent as well, but the catalyst was the mortgage industry.Indy is correct, folks with money are scared because we might turn into another socialist state, like Canada or europe. jorge

Tony, lets look at the "firsts" during his first five months, then you can be a better judge of his future as the leader of the free world:

His first call to any head of state as president was to Mahmoud Abbas, leader of Fatah party in the Palestinian territory.

* His first one-on-one interview with any news organization was with Al Arabia television.

* He ordered Guantanamo Bay closed and all military trials of detainees halted.

* He ordered all overseas CIA interrogation centers closed.

* He withdrew all charges against the masterminds behind the USS Cole and 9/11.

* Today we learn that he is allowing hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refuges to move to and live in the US at
American taxpayer expense.

Anyone else seeing a pattern here? And this does not even begin to address the unbelievable financial decisions he's driving. Like "I will not allow any earmarks or "pork" I will never pass a bill with special interest fat in it" Then he signed the stimulous package with over 9000 individual "special interest" earmarks in it.

This guy won an election and used so much smoke and mirrors he makes Chris Angel and David Blaine look like novices! unfortunatley Americans are mesmerized by a good show and foolish enough to have believed in his speaches, not in the actual practice and who his associates were.

There is a huge attack coming against America very soon, the Taliban/terrorists/bin laden etc are going to do something huge, another 9/11 event is coming, you wait and see how he handles that! If you think for a second that the economy is all we have to deal with now, just watch what is coming. These terrorist fighters/suicide bombers have been patiently waiting to make something happen, and now Obama has invited them into the USA and is paying all their expenses to get here and live here as well.

Hate bush if you choose, but his number one priority to me was keeping America safe to live and work in. To that end he was exceptionally successful for the 8 years of his watch. I don't feel nearly as confident with this new joker in charge, especially after his first five months of decisions so far!

Certainly the mtg industry is bad here, the bundling is the bigger issue. It prevented anyone from ever having to collect their own loans.

If you want to believe the real root of this problem is mortgages to people who couldnt afford them in poor neiborhoods, why are the worst cities for foreclosures miami, Sacramento and Phoenix not Harlem and Watts? If your theory held it would be community banks in these areas that would be in the worst shape, not Citi and Bank of America.

I have many friends that have retired from various government agencies involved with our security & many now work as consultants doing similar work for private firms doing contract work for the same agencies. All of them are predicting numerous terrorist attacks both here & abroad. Many think a target or targets may well be away from large population centers. Hannity from Fox news conducted "Man In The Street" interviews in NY City. Most individuals interviewed were uneducated, in a practical sense, & knew nothing about politics other than to elect the first first Black president & the so called policy of change. No matter what happens before the next Congressional or presidential election this huge segment of the voting population will vote Democrat. I am not optimistic for our near future. These financial difficulties will cause many problems in the outfitting industry. Clients will lose deposits, outfitters that are cash strapped will offer inferior trips, the economies in our Western states, Canada, Alaska, & Africa will take a hit with loss of revenue, & the recovery of our outfitting industry will take many years, if ever.

"If you guys want to keep blaming the democrats for this go right ahead..."

I'm not blaming them.

John F. Kennedy was a Deomcrat. He believed in a strong national defense and lowering taxes to stimulate the economy (it worked).

Obama is a Marxist whose small band has taken over the Democrats. He is using the recession as an excuse to establish permanent left-wing rule. What would you call $5.2 billion in the "stimulus" package for "community organizing" groups like Acorn?

I think he's basically a front. He's too dumb to walk and chew gum at the same time without a teleprompter.

All the more reason to book hunts with a reputable booking agent. Discuss his financial circumstances with him before you pay the deposit. Reputable agents tend to deal with reputable outfitters who have not operated on a shoestring before, and are likely to survive these times without cutting corners. If you get a "good deal," though, recognize that you might be getting what you are paying for.

Another reason for a good agent: If you're hunting in Zimbabwe, the money stays in the USA until after the safari.

Martin, you're paying far too much attnetion to the media and not the real facts involved with what is going on. They are winning you over with the smoke and mirrors which is exactly what they are trying to do.

Resist letting them take over all your information and driving you into panic making you believe this stuff, you gotta look past this smoke screen and see what's behind the curtain. The media put him in office and they are the ones now protecting him.

You will soon see that his heyday and popularity is going to be over. Nobody since Carter has been a bigger screw up as President. His popularity is going to plummit and our economy is nowhere near rock bottom yet. You watch what happens, Even Princess Pelozi is going to be tarred and feathered before this is over!

Because you well know that after a mortgage is issued, it usually gets bought by another entity and a lot of these were bundled. Fannie and Freddy bundled and sold a lot to other banking outfits. jorge

That, sir, is pure nonsense and lies straight from the Democrats who are trying to shift blame from themselves to the private sector so they can take over our country's entire economic system. The fundamental cause of all this meltdown in the financial markets is the failure of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. They were/are not private companies but backed by the government, run by former Democrat government officials handpicked by the Democrat party that gave HUGE political contributions to Democrats like Frank, Dodd and Obama. They REQUIRED that banks make mortgage loans to people that everyone from the mortgage broker writing the loan to the bank that made the loan and to Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac who guaranteed/bought/resold the loan knew would never be repaid. It was political payback to the Democrat voters who got homes they never could have otherwise "afforded" unless the government was arm twisting the banks. And it was a house of cards and now we know the result. So how is that government run/backed agencies, i.e. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, are somehow a lack of regulation? Are you saying the fix is to have government regulate banks MORE to make even more bad loans? That sure doesn't make any sense to me.

Sorry, can't agree with you on that JJ.

And here is why:



There is such a large segment of the population now that are clueless about anything but color, and who promises to give them something for nothing. They LAUGH about the fact they don't care about ANYTHING but what they can get for themselves, for nothing. And they're winning...

guess we'll see what happens, If I had a crystal ball I would be rich. I just detect a massive dissapointment when talking to people at the shows I've done and the classes I've held in the last two months. The population was swindled by the media the first time to get this guy. Now they see the results and the pain and suffering going on. Wait til the next Al qaeda attack happens and how he handles it. Wait until pelozi's exploits with her use of military aircraft for her families personal use becomes public. I believe that the majority were scammed big time, but the reality of what they did is closing in on Obama now.

He's in trouble with what he and his "team" are doing now. There is a bit of a delay in the public opinion with the media. But just wait, The media is very fickle and is almost always a fair weather fan of politics. In time they will also start showing the truth a little bit at a time. When bad news sells they will be reporting every bit of it. Only then will the population of America realize what has happened and we will get back on track.

History repeats itself, remember it took Carter to get Reagan. Carter promised everything to everybody and catered to the Iranians. Heck if not for Carter pulling the Shah out we would not have the problems with Iran we are still facing there today! It was Carter that pushed and helped to put a religous cleric in charge there. What an idiot!

And just how many of those clients are inner city, unemployed, welfare receiving, single moms with multiple "baby's daddies"?

That group is growing fast, and will only continue to get bigger under Obama's "lead".

Well Said!

I look for guided hunts in Canada, Mexico, and everywhere else to get much, much cheaper.....lower demand, increased supply = cheaper prices no matter what you're selling.

PS. JJ is the man.

Our SCI chapter board just had a discussion about this very comment for our hunt auction in 2010. Most of the outfitters & guides really don't make a lot of profit on most hunts. Certainly, there are exceptions where a B&C, SCI Gold, or some other record book animal exists & the outfitter happens to control the concession & makes a wind fall. Certainly, outfitters may discounts hunts short term to fill vacancies to just cover expenses. In a year or so to continue to discount deeply means less guide or PH fees, cheaper meals, less money to lease with or maintain a concession. We decided to be very, very careful with whom we accept hunts from. We have always vetted outfitters well, but now the financial situation dictates even more caution. Some of the really low prices that are going to appear will not be the deal some thought.

My thinking is that, particularly in Mexico and in the US where there are landowner tags/vouchers, they will have to get prices down in order to get rid of them. I've heard several mule deer outfitters in MX say they don't expect to sell any hunts for much more than $6k this year (if that), when they normally get $8-$9k.

That still doesn't answer how this could possibly be Barry's fault at this stage. He may well make it worse, but it is clearly not his fault at this stage.

A uniquely American way of processing mortgage loans, it's the only major country in the world that bundling is the norm. All over the world mortgages are actually held on bank balance sheets until maturity.

I'm sure you are right on. We all know its supply & demand that allows hunts like this to be so over priced. I received a call last year promoting a Mule Deer hunt @ $20K with a waiting & draw list, I believe in Utah. I tuned the caller out as soon as I herd the price. For those with money there will be some deals if the hunts actually takes place.

A Stunningly Brilliant Reply!

.....

.....Are you sure you mean "bundling", or should it have been "Bungling"?

There is nothing inherently bad or speculative about the reselling and bundling of mortgages. In fact, it improves efficiency since large buyers like a mutual fund or retirement fund can buy a large block of mortgages all at once and reduces transaction costs. Where it all fell a part was the dishonest way Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac misrepresented the soundness of the loans they were bundling. If investors had known that some borrowers were not required to document their ability to repay the loan, they would not have paid very much for those loans. Since the "low quality" loans were lumped in with all the others, the bundling was a convenient way for the scum at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to get away with fraud. Since they worked for a quasi-government agency, the politicians aren't even holding hearings to expose the fraud. Instead, the CEO of Fannie Mae walked away with almost $100 million for this effort!

I find it intereating that the major foreign government that has been so far the most critical of Ameica's recent financial moves has been China--which the last time I looked was Communist.

Maybe because they see the long term impact of Obama's spending. It can only drive inflation to levels that will make Carter's economic policies seem conservative. It will make China's holdings in our T-bills worth a whole bunch less.

It's perhaps ironic that the communist Chinese are critical of the Obama administration's Socializing intervention of the American economy.

Drop back a hundred years ago and the British Imperialist, Rudyard Kipling, wrote of "Here lies the fool who tried to hustle the East"

Now the Chinese who have invested into so much of America's debt are afraid that we American's have hustled the East.

just my opinion...

China and Russia are tyring to push an international currency to be controlled by the IMF. They don't want the dollar to be the world standard anymore.
Hopefully that can be shot down.

The cost of hunts has been market driven and prices will come down in step with the market, IMO. Some operators will have to survive on less just like us.

I've been in the hunting business too long to make predictions. I do know the Africans can be hard headed and that they can live on less than Americans and some of them will not come down one cent..The others? who knows! The high dollare outfits will keep going up as their clientele can afford it...

I have no predictions, I just take what comes, and I'm having a few very good deals coming my way, but I always do after the shows and towards the end of the season..

Guess well see how it washes out, I know everyone is feeling the crunch, its how they handle it that I'm not going to predict, particularly on plainsgame as many of the PHs are primarily farmers and hunting is a sideline for extra money..

In other words I have not a clue, just some opinnions that will get you a cup of coffee if you have a dollar to go with'em!

Far more govt's have been critical of the US over this matter than China since this matter really got going, the only ones the US govt is really worried about is China and Japan as they expect those govt's to continue to buy US treasuries.

It's this "uniquely" way that has made us the world's richest nation until the democraps started sticking their noses into it.

So as usual, I am correct on this issue and it was the pressuring of banks and the irresponsibility of the democrap protected entities like Fannie Mae & Freddy Mac that precipitated this catastrophe. Obama, then a sittng Senator and a BIG TIME ACORN supporter does share some of the blame. jorge

Agreed that bundling in itself isn't inherently bad, the lack of due dilignce that Fannie and Freddie did before buying the paper was bad, but would have limited losses to the value of the mtg's which is about a trillion dollars world wide.

So far, the economic losses attributed to this crisis world wide is approaching $50 trillion. The CDO's that AIG and other insurance company's spread the problem around the world, the CDO's which didn't require collateral because AIG's overall credit rating (other Insurance companies didn't do this because they would have had to pledge security) was strong enough threatens the entire US and most of the world's financial system far beyond sub-prime mtgs. It meant that legit insurance on bond default all across the world was worthless, which in turn would have triggered margin/collateral calls at just about every major Bank, pension, hedge fund, insurance fund and municipality around the world.

Securitization of mortgages, credit cards and student loans has moved huge amounts of loans off Bank balance sheets in the US, making the Bank's balance sheets artificially small therefore requiring them to have less capital and increasing leverage. That made them more profitable in the shortterm, but grossly under capitalized at the same time. This is the lack of regulation and oversight I am talking about. This is how Citi and BofA could be as big as they are with tangible equity of less than 2.5%, even though Tier one capital might be listed as ten. Fannie and Freddie were around the beginning of this, but to blame mortgages in harlem for this is just not true.

The complete lack of regulation and oversight of derivitives in the US and other major financial markets is the real reason the world is screwed at the moment.

Partially BUT, the regulation and oversight WERE/ARE there. It was gov't interference AND GREED on the part of some that led to this, but without the gov't (democraps) subterfuge, the greed portion would not have been present. And Obama is the head democrap now. jorge

Believe what you want to believe Jorge.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.


When are you going back to Zim to shoot another buff with that gorgeous big bore rifle of yours?

NO plans as of now. Maybe Tanzania in 2011 for buffalo. jorge

Where do you come up with this stuff? Besides being a Democrat Party talking point, what is the evidence? Yes there are downturns in the economic cycle and that leads to economic upturns. But there is no way, nor should there be, that some government regulator is going to be able to stop/control risk takers from taking risks in a capitalist society. And it is capitalism that has made the Western countries the leading economies of the world. The problem as I see it is that the risk takers should have to suffer the full consequences if their risk taking turns out bad. Government involvement is bailing out the risk takers at the expense of the rest of us and that is why there are the troubles we have. The risk takers know that the government is going to cover for them, so they just keep making bigger and bigger bets. Trying to design a regulatory system that would eliminate all risks is like the dog chasing its tail. The best and brightest are always going to find a way to outsmart the government regulators and especially Congressional lawmakers, who, let's face it, are not in the government because they are the leading minds in finance. Why doesn't the government regulators actually go after the perpetrators of fraud which is something they can actually handle using the already existing laws? It reminds me of the gun control debate. They don't enforce the laws already on the books and the solution is to have more laws??

Another aspect of this whole thing is I think the government, especially our U.S. Treasury is magnifying this economic downturn as a way of increasing their power. Up until the last couple of months, this economy is not nearly as bad as the conditions of the late 70's early 80's. I think the politicians talked us into a worse downturn than what was going to happen by itself. All this "crisis" and "castrophe" coupled with outrageous spending and tax hikes got a lot of people hoarding their money until they see how it falls out. And now the Treas. Dept. wants to be able to take over any company they seem necessary? Why would we give these inept people more power when they can't handle what is already on their plates??

Well done Rockhopper, even with this simple format, it's clear who gets the situation and who buys into the media hype regarding the way this will play out in the future.

Well done!

Think what you want, try doing a little research. Read Barron's or WSJ or FT to get a handle on what's going in the world.

It's not a democratic conspiracy to raise your taxes and take over the world.

I think it is. To at least make us so dependent on government that we give up most of our freedoms (read my signature line). This link might give you insight on how the democraps tied into the Fannie Mae fiasco: Fannie Mae

They are on a mission to turn this country into a socialist state. jorge

Actually, no. It was the 1999 regulatory changes allowing people [hint: minorities with no job] to get mortgages without proper documentation, and loans for more than 100% of the value of the house. Without those Clinton regulatory changes, there would not have been [bleep] mortgages out there to bundle into [bleep] derivatives.

A Marxist state, because they are hitting hard against personal freedoms as well as against the free market.

Hillary was on tv tonight saying we just have to make these guns illegal to reduce violence in Mexico.

Did I stir up the emotions or what!!! Hey you gotta laugh to keep from crying over the state of the Union!! This administration certainly has a big appatite. We're on the road to tripleing our National Debt and the Gov. will go broke..Even a 10 year old should be ablel to figure that out, but not the president of the United States or ali babba and the 40 theives in congress...

Well, at least I can say I think for myself. You should try it some time. Just because some liberal journalist wrote it in the FT means it is true? Give me a break. Oh, I forgot, I'm not an enlightened socialist so I wouldn't understand.

How come you never mention the evil unregulated energy markets for causing this global recession? Maybe because Canada as an oil exporter made out like a bandit??? So capitalism and free markets are okay so long as it is in your favor??? The high energy prices did more to cause this recession than U.S. mortgage failures. People were rioting in third world countries because of the increase in food costs caused by high energy prices. I'm sure you can find a CNN or BBC special that blames the U.S. for that too.

Well I have no plans to Hunt Africa this year or next. Simple fact of the matter, Africa is a basket case, why bother? Yea on a per shot basis is a very good value for the dollar. My problem is the hassles that come with travel anywhere other than by Auto. I just will not pay for an airline ticket, then be abused by that airline, for the sake of sitting in a sardine can for 18 hours. Never mind having a rifle and a few rounds of ammo. I think the Safari business will weather this down turn ok, as for prices yea you might find some deals in the short term, panic is like that. Fixed costs will go up, due to a lot of factors, the main one is that people like to earn money for the work they do, even AIG guys. My lack of interest in Africa these days has more to do with not willing to fly on any Airline.

No hunting in Africa this year for me.

I do think that the leftist have and are working a plan to permanently shift the US to marxism. This shift, they think, will occur when instead of 30 or 40% of "eligable" voters, - legal or illegal voters - are net tax receivers, the balance shifts to 50% plus one. I think Obama's attempt to decrease the current deduction for charitable giving is an example of this effort. Reduce charitable giving across the spectrum and it will leave a gap the leftist will then use tax dollars to fill... Greater % of voters on the gov't dole... An incremental increase.

(BTW, an earlier incremental effort was the "Motor Voter" registration law, which allows voter registration to occur all too easily and all to fraudulently. For example, I moved and needed to change my drivers liscense. Since I moved and my former voting registration was invallid, I registered to vote at the same time. No ID at all was required by the registrar's clerk when I registered. What a f'in' joke.)

Tax the crap out of corporations and individuals with (formerly) money to invest in growth - either capital expenditures, which puts people to work bulding or making or growth through hiring - and they 1.) won't have the $'s to invest and 2.) won't have the incentive. Result = less employment, more voters on the gov't dole, another incremental step toward 50% plus one...

I could go on, but it should be obvious.

Two things will save us I think. One is that many of the least political voters just want to be left alone to their lives and that of their families to work and improve their lot. They will become political to get rid of the problem. Think Carter here. Especially when stagflation kicks in. Second is that the leftist just don't get the national security issue. They believe that everyone thinks like they do - or should - and that they can negotiate with someone willing to drive a truckload of explosives into a crowd, or to have a kid or anyone else do it. And then they think that when someone actually does this its a police case and not an act of war. But negotiation presumes that there exist a common goal which both people or both sides want to achieve. That is not the case when one side just wants to end your existence.

Continuing on, in line with the leftist thinking, from any event, and certainly from a Sept 11 like event, there is no permanent lesson taken. Sure high alert, but then back to the police case thinking, and off watch... We'll face another huge catastrophe, I think, and not too long down the road. You can't have open borders, importation of problem people who will not assimilate and a relaxed "police case" mentality about terroristic acts without inviting disaster.

I predict that maybe the mid term congressional elections will begin the swing back, but there are too many leftist senators who's terms will not end in 2010 to make the whole congress swing. Four years and out for Obama. Like Carter.

JPK