Very intersting discussion on the effectiveness of the 165 gr. TSX out of the '06 on african plains game. To sum up, apparently it can be relied upon to exit and leave a blood trail.
My question is how about the performance of the Nosler Partions sand the Swift-A-Frames when it comes to their 180-200 gr. bullets out of the 30'06. Can they be relied upon to exit also on such game from that cartriage ? E

We( my wife and I) have successfully used the .30-06 with TSXs in 165 and 180 gr. and The Swift A-Frame in 165 gr. on African PG..
As often as not, the TSXs would exit...The A-Frame was impressive on that game in this carrtridge, and typically did NOT exit.
I would take and use any one of the above again in an instant.
We havent used the Nosler Partition in that cartridge, but have used the 180 NP in a .300 H&H to VERY good effect.
Penetration on all bullets mentioned, even on frontal, or angled shots, was more than sufficient.
The .30-06 we used is typically not getting high velocities, and all loads clocked just under 2700 fps.
Ingwe

Ingwe, I used the Nosler partition out of my 300 win mag loaded down close to 30-06 velocity, 2875fps. The performance has been perfect. The NP usually did not exit on anything except Springbok. Eland, Kudu, Hartebeest, etc. the NP gave perfect performance.

I have also used the 180gr TSX on hogs here at the ranch in the same load and velocity. They almost always exit. I was disappointed in that many of the hogs ran long distances before dying. Even on perfect heart shots they run a long ways. My take on them is that they don't do enough internal damage for my taste at 2875fps. On hogs I have been using plain old Rem. corelokts. They are cheap and at 2875fps, kill hogs very well.

I would use the TSX in Africa, but it would be a 165gr driven as fast as I could make it out of my 300win mag. I wouldn't use a TSX at 30-06 velocity.

Just my opinion.

ss

To put a little of the reply in context here, I have my second barrel on this 30/06. The first had over 3000 rounds through it as I keep very accurate reloading records and have that log book. With this many rounds through this gun I have experimented and experienced a lot of different bullets, loads, and game taken.

When it comes to the 30/06 the 180 has long been the standard bullet weight. This was due to the lack of any premium bullet made during the first 80-100 years of it's life. There is no reason to use a 180 cup and core when there is a 165 premium. The 30/06 and the 165's were made for each other. For the same reason that a 300 mag kills faster then the 30/06 on many species the 165 kills faster then the 180 in the 30/06. The additional few hundred feet per second are impressive and actually make the 30/06 with a premium every bit the equal,and in my opinion the superior to the 300 mag when the latter uses a cup and core 180 grain bullet.

I even went to the 150 and 130 in the 30/06 just to see how low I could go. The 150's may be better, or more stunning impacts on game under 200 pounds, but as you get into the 500 pound and above range the 150's were not as impressive as the 165's and the petals struggled to stay on at 50-150 yards.

The 30/06 with the NP is a great combination. Think about how long this pair has been around and how many animals have been taken with them! Anyone critical of this match would quickly show how little experience they have! For this combo I think the 180 is needed because you loose a large percentage of weight automatically. Loss of weight means loss of penetration. In it's day the NP was the best design and function available. However today the TSX and the A frame have it beat for performance.

The Swift was for a few years the bullet of choice for me. Much like the Trophy bonded, and interbond. These designs also work far better in the 165 grain weight. Added velocity and impact were far better then the 180 grain bullets. Now I have had the conversation, or "debate" that some guys are loading the 180's to 2850fps Wow that is smoken with a 180 grain bullet. I'm not sure that my rifle in the sunshine with ammo that hot would be the prudent way to go. I can shoot 165's to near 3000 fps. That velocity difference is significant. A typical 300 mag shoots 180's between 3000 and 3100fps so getting near 3000 with a /06 and a bullet that will mushroom to twice or even 3 times its diameter. The Bonded core bullets deliver so much impact to game it sometimes look as if they are electrocuted for a moment. I' cannot count how many animals I have seen knocked down with the Aframe. They don't always stay down but there is never any doubt they are hit.

Exits are about as rare as a recovered bullet is with the TSX. There was a time when I debated with myself over the pros and cons of the bonded bullets and the monolithic TSX designs. I could see so many benefits of both types. What it came down to was the exits and the penetration of the X bullet. It allows that shot you need when the animal is not in the perfect boadside situation. The exits are the better bleeders too.

As a PH I loved seeing the impacts with the bonded bullets. This was a huge benefit to knowing there was a solid hit. Game shot the same way with the TSX might just jump and run at the shot without any indication of an impact. Yet we would find blood at the site. I shook my head in disbelief plenty of times knowing the shot was a clean miss only to see blood and a dead animal 100 yards away. I learned to never give up looking for game after the shot. That goes for any projectile today.

So the 30/06 without any question is a better rifle with the 165 premium( not the 165 NP) The debate you need to wrestle with comes down to this simple desire; exits, or visual impacts. Whichever is the priority for you makes the choice easy.

I'll also add that when you start getting into the 1000lb plus game size the TSX totally blows away anything else made. Nothing will penetrate through that much body mass like a TSX will. I shot an eland well over 2000 lbs at the same distance as the hunter. His 286 grain bonded bullet from his 9.3, and my 165 grain TSX were only a couple inches apart on the exit side under the skin. There is no chance that a bonded core bullet from the 30/06 would have made it that far with those huge mushrooms. This was a sub 100 yard shot on that huge beast and the 165 grain Bullet was a picture perfect four petal mushroom.

JJ...good post...especially as the size of the game gets bigger..the TSX is the way to go..
As was noted here and elsewhere by a lot of people, including JB. It would appear that the through and through shot of a TSX does not put the game down as quickly as a bullet like the Swift or NP that will expend all of its energy within the target animal...
This is an argument as old as smokeless powder and varied projectiles. There may very well be some validity to it, but I have seen so little difference between the reactions of game to the two types of bullets, that I consider it inconsequential.
We have all agreed and established that they all work well...so as in so many other instances...go with what works for you, what you feel comfortable with, and what you have confidence in...
Ingwe

JJ, let me see if I caught the crux of your post.

In 30-06:

You recommend using the 165 TSX or if using the Nosler Partition (or Swift A frame) the bullet needs to 180gr.?

In 300 win mag:

What bullet and velocity combination would you prefer to see in 300 win mag? Actually let me ask that a different way, what 30 caliber bullet would you recommend at say 2900fps?

What would you think about the 200gr Nosler Partition in 300win mag? That is what I took to Africa on my second trip.

I appreciate your thoughts.

josh

Okay, the 2900fps speed I have to say the 165tsx, it's what I'm shooting and all the hunters that use my 30'06's use as well. I would not be able to choose otherwise as it would be a contradiction to what I use myself. I have a lot of hunters come to camp and use this 30/06. I don't wanna search for lost game, nor do I want the blame for having game lost due to my handloads.

The only "premium bullet" that should stay at 180 for a 30/06 is the NP. that is due to the significant weight loss after impact. This is not a problem, just part of the design that needs to be considered.

the 200 gr NP from a fast rifle like a 300 mag is great, maybe not the best long range or all around option, but for Plains game which is usually shot at 200 yards or less, mostly much less, the 200 grain NP is a good choice. It will lose a lot of weight after impact, but due to the bigger starting size it's still likely over 100-120 grains once the front explodes inside the lungs and heart.

Please make no mistake here, I'm not anti bullet of any make( except cup and core) I have seen a lot of performance differences when several hundred big game are shot in camp per year. So I'm not trying to promote or embellish anything here. There are only a few differences between them, they are all better then cup and core, and higher velocity makes all of them work better. I suppose there is a limit to the velocity. The benefits of shooting at or a bit over 3000fps are significant compared to shooting at 2700 or 2800fps and under.

JJ, thanks for the reply. I'll try the 165 TSX's in my 300 win mag.

I must say that even though I shoot a 300 win mag, I am a bit recoil sensitive and I am prone to slow a load down until a I am comfortable with the recoil. I can probably stand the 165gr bullet at close to 3000fps without losing any field shooting accuracy.

It does pain me to shelve the partition, can't say that I have ever had anything like a bullet failure with it. The only thing I have ever wished for was an exit wound, but partitions just don't exit much.

josh

Phil Shoemaker just did such a test useing 220 gr. bullet in the 30-06. The 220 gr. Nosler partition out penetrated them all by a surprising amount...I duplicated those tests after talking to Phil about it..I got the same results.

I also added to his test with the 150 and 180 gr. Barnes bullets: the 200 gr. Swifts: and 200 gr. Woodleighs (ment for 300 Win. etc.) and 220 gr. Woodleighs that I had on hand.

The results were the same as Phils (458 on 24 hr.)the 220 gr. Nolser outdid them all and by a good amount..

I will be shooting the 220 gr. Woodleighs for deer etc, and the 220 Noslers on all the big stuff from elk on up in my Win. M-95 new model Saddle Ring Carbine in 30-06, thus my interest in this subject and my conversations with Phil, a good personal friend and a cornocopia of good information on guns that kill big things....

There is no doubt that those heavy bullets really drive deep. I think it's a dandy load for things that are really big and really close. However I don't see it as an all around load that would have the same function from 50 yards to 350 yards.

If you're loading for a specific application of something huge at closer ranges, that would be a hard combination to beat. Not so good for cross canyon shots in windy conditions, at 300 yards though. In Most places we never know what will be around the next bush, or across that canyon in Africa.

I would be very interested in the results and the test media and distance this was done at. Curious if the results were from short range, or from 250 yards? Those 220's are slow from the /06 and drop velocity fast. I doubt that the 220 partition will even be close to the penetration of a 165TSX at 250 yards.

JJ,
Both Phil and I were testing at very close range. Mine was at 25 and a few at 100 yards and thats where I would use the 220 noslers..Not sure what range Phil tested at..I was only looking for a dark timber elk load, as shots are right under your nose going South.

If I were wanting an all around load, then I would opt for the 180 Nosler partition or perhaps the Accubond, in the 06 at 2700 FPS, a Swift or any other one of the super premiums with a bonded core or a partition would suit me also..

I am really sold on North Fork bullets and I have always been a big time Woodleigh fan..I have used the Swift bullets a good deal and they always work as pictured in the advertisements..I will say that sometimes I get the idea that the Swift bullets are too perfect in that they ball up in this very smooth ball with a hump in the stem and are too smooth to suit me and as a result of that smoothness they don't do as much tissue destruction as say the Woodleigh, Barnes X, or the Nosler that have those ragged buzz saw expanded wings..Have you noticed this?

What I have found is that the Swift works great on big stuff, particularly buffalo, but sometimes not so good on the smaller stuff in that it runs a good ways and doesn't leave a good blood trail..I noticed this in my 7x57, but mostly with my .338 Win. but I have never lost an animal that I shot with them. It has only happened on a couple of ocassions but thats always bothersome.

I discussed this at Dallas with the Swift rep and he said that is the exact reason they came out with the Sirocco, and perhaps I need to try that Sirocco bullet. I intend to do that at some point.

Just some personal observations on my part for whatever its worth...

I have used the 220gr NP as my primary Plains game 06 combination. Last shot was an Eland and the bullet was found under the skin on the off side. Most curious bullet recovery I have ever found. The front core seperated but was found as a perfect rivet resting with the remainder of the bullet. Which means to me neither the bullet nor the front core deviated on their track thru the animal. I would have never thought this possible.

I have seen that several times with NP's, but it is out of the ordinary. I suspect that the little bit of front core stays pretty much attached to the rest of the bullet until stopped by the offside hide. I've also found a bunch of jackets and cores together in much the same way with conventional cup-and-core bullets.

I've got a bullet board here with about 100 or more recovered bullet of all kinds. Many of the visitors here have seen this board in my trophy room. All the details on every bullet are included on that board.

Of the several dozen NP bullets on that board there are a number that have had this separated condition, but are still resting together. I glued them back together so they would not get lost. This probably happens more then we realize until many of us talk about it like this.

Doesn't this odd front core separation boost the partition a bit in our estimation? Obviously I realize that when we are comparing TSX's, nosler partitions and the Swift bullet we are pretty well talking about the creme of the bullet crop. But still, this tidbit is not a mark against the partition.

josh

I have had very good experience with 200 grain A Frames from the 300 win mag and 300 H&H. I favor using the heavy for caliber bullets and have not found any handicap when shooting at longer distances. Penetration and performance were excellent on all species from oribi/bushbuck at close range to longer shots on the floodplains on sitatunga,lechwe,puku.

It is not uncommon for the front portion of the Nosler to seperate and pieces of it scatter about inside the animal doing a lot of damage btw..What you will have left is a perfectly expanded bullet that appears much like a Barnes X but with all the petals still in place. If you do not want this to happen then slow the bullet down or go to a heavier Nosler such as the awesome 220 gr. 30 caliber, or from a 130 gr. .270 to a 160 gr. 270 in Nosler persuasion...I have been using Noslers for 50 years and it is the bullet by which all others are judged, how can you beat that?

Most of todays premium bullets are so good that comparing them is a waste of time..The Northfork, Woodleigh, Nosler, Swift, Barnes X and any of the new and popular bonded core bullets such as the interbond Hornady, Swift Sirraco, Nosler Accubond, etc. etc. will work fine 99% of the time, maybe a 100%...

I fear we have reached a point in bullet technowledgly thanks to the great bullet makers we have in the USA, wherein this "best bullet" arguement has about run its course and is no longer a viable discussion for the most part, at least IMO...

Thank you for your imput everyone. Much appreciated. E

Monolithic technology (aka TSX) works and works well, thats why Nosler and Hornady have jumped on the band wagon. Cant imagine its because of California's lead ban, but who knows. Super high velocity, thats a no-brainer TSX and TTSX all the way. All the other great bullets will do for 99% and for deer, bullets like the Hornady S.P. are still king in my book.

I can't base my opinion on anything like the number of African game animals that some of the posters who've already responded.

So I'll stick to the experience I have only. That is:
1) 8 PG animals (impala, blesbock, kudu, waterbuck, gemsbuck, hartebeest, blue wildebeest, and eland) with the NP 180 PPT from a 300WSM at MV ~2980. All exited at ranges from 100-150 yds., except the eland at 200 yds. That bullet broke the on shoulder and was recovered below the far side hide, fully expanded at about 60% weight retention.
2) 7 PG animals (springbok, blesbock, impala, hartebeest, black wildebeest, gemsbok, and zebra) with the Barnes 140 grain TSX from a 270WSM at a MV ~3150. All were passthroughs at ranges from 80-260 yds.
3) 2 African animals with a Swift AF - a 400 grain 0.423" bullet at MV ~2325 fps. One was Cape buffalo shot frontally in the chest x2 at 65 yds. Both bullets penetrated into the intestines, neither recovered. The other was a reedbuck at about 50-60 yds. with explosive expansion in the right rear ham, exiting after breaking off the right shoulder.

So my conclusion is that these are all effective bullets in the velocity ranges reported, on a very varied size range of African game animals. Matching the bullet and velocity to the game is important, but as usual, good bullet placement seems the most important variable in determining efficacy IMO.

Without boring you with the details, I have used the A Frame successfuly on game from Impala and Grant's to Cape buffalo and have never been disappointed. The two calibers I used on three hunts were the 7mm Rem and the .375 H&H. Deep penetration, superior accuracy and terminal effectiveness were unparalelled. We didn't have to track anything. Most were DRT. I'm going back for more buff in 2011 and I will be using the A Frame in two calibers, .375H&H and .458 Win. I'm going to use the 450 grain A Frame in the .458 for good velocity and terminal performance. I have seen this and the 500 grain used very successfully in .458 Win.

The TSX is an excellent bullet, but the A Frame is still my choice.

I would not use the A Frame on whitetail, though, but only on thicker skinned and heavier boned animals.

I agree the A frame is an excellent bullet for big heavy animals and I have seen it used many times and used it myself on ocassion. For lighter stuff I don't care for it much and would opt for the Sirocco.

There are a lot of good bullets out there today and you can't pick one brand or weight for all calibers, some brands/weights etc. work well in one caliber and can be less satisfactory in another. Too many folks have it in their head that if brand X bullet works well in one caliber then its best in all calibers, that would be nice, but it ain't so...

The Swift is not my first choice for buffalo in the 375 or 416. In the .375 would opt for the GS Customs 230 gr. HP...I also like the 270 gr. Northfork SP, 350 gr. Woodleighs are absolutly outstanding IMO, 300 gr. Noslers work well indeed. In the .416 Rem or Ruger I would opt for the wonderful Northfork Cup Point, or a GS Customs HP and again I like the very heavy 450 gr. Woodleigh..The new Nosler 400 gr. bullet was marvelous on my last buffalo hunt and it punched big holes in one side and out the other on buffalo, so far I am very impressed with the 400 gr. Nosler in the .416 Rem..

The Barnes X bullets work better on Buffalo than they do on lighter game IMO..

You have a lot of good options out there and your choice of the 450 gr. Swift A FRame in the .458 is interesting and I bet it works well indeed..I know the 500 gr. Swift works very well on buffalo..

I am sure my opine is argueable, otherwise we wouldn't have so many choices, lets keep it that way...

Over on AR a couple of years ago, you gave me your recipe for the 350 Woodleigh in .375. I loaded up a bunch and got great accuracy. I didn't use them last hunt because I brought the ammo for two of us, two rifles for the othr guy and the .375 for me, and I could only bring one bullet for everything for without changing scopes.

I've only killed two buffalo in my entire life, and I did it both with the 300 A Frame, one shot kills on both.

One penetrated through the entire buffalo first breaking the onside shoulder and then through the vitals and both ribcages. When recovered, the bullet weighed 292 grains. No matter how you slice it, that's impressive performance at a range of about 80 yards.

My PH on my last hunt uses 500 gr. handloaded A Frames in his Husqvarna custom .458 with a 22" barrel. They really worked well.

I'm going to use the A Frame in my newly acquired .458 winnie, also.

I've had really good luck with DRT's on PG using the 160 grain A Frame in the 7mm Remmy. It's just hairsplitting to change to something else, although next hunt I'm gong to take along some 350 Woodleighs for the .375 and try them on buff, if I have the room.

I'd like to try the GS Custom because I've heard so much positive stuff about it, but why bother when the A Frame is such an excellent performer.

Ciao.

Fred

Ray or JJ, have you seen the results of hunters shooting Barnes, say a 180 @ 3400 fps?

My experience with Barnes is limited to a few cartridges, but the 30-378 and MRX duo is very impressive. I don't see the difference in regards to the reaction of the animal, or the "taking longer to kill" often associated with Barnes.

I know velocity has alot to do with it, but without starting a LR debate, I have taken game up to the size of elk at 800 yards and more (all I'm getting at is low impact velocity). the reactions are no different than when I was shootin Berger or accubonds.

Just wondering if the reaction of game when shot with Barnes is more on par with bonded bullets in your experience.(with the increase in velocity)

There is clearly a huge difference in impact velocity and animal reaction with all bullets, Even a solid or FMJ shot fast enough will blow open a huge wound channel as tissue struggles to get out of the way of that bullet as it passes through.

Velocity is the main cause of what most folks refer to as Bloodshot meat. The hematoma from the compressed tissue between the bullets path and the skin causes this. It's why on small game or smaller antelopes they blow apart. The skin cannot contain the tissue as it is pushing out of the way of that bullet. Remember two things cannot occupy the same place at the same time. Kinda like shooting pool. The cue ball is the only one with any velocity at the moment you hit it. But the other balls assume the same speed when the impact happens. This is nearly identical to the way tissue reacts to bullet impact.

Quite often you will read on this forums of people saying to just use a solid or FMJ and you won't blow up the game because the bullet won't expand. It's those comments that show the true experience of the person giving the guidance. It's simply not true at all. The velocity is what is most responsible for the excess damage. Sure an expanding bullet will damage tissue too, but even a solid from a 375HH only going 2500fps will blow a giant hole through a steenbok. No different then a cup and core Hornady 270 grain bullet at 2850fps.

So the velocity is a major contributor to the visual impacts with the X bullets. It's one of the main reasons I use the 165 rather then the 180's in the 30/06. Still not great results with the visual, but noticeable enough over the 180's that I use them.

You will not likely be able to appreciate the visual difference in impacts as the shooter. You must be the audience or spotter, or guide/PH to see this. Or even in a follow up later with a video.

Speed is life baby! (or death in this case ). Give me a good bullet like a Swift or a Barnes and drive it fast and the killing effect is at least in my limited experience, dramatic. I think it was Layne Simpson that said the most impressive cartridge he'd ever seen on large African game like buffalo & lion was the 416 Weatherby with A Frames @ 2700 fps. I love my Swifts and I still have a big supply and will continue to use them especially on my 416 Rigby, but I am slowly moving to an all TSX inventory. They are the most consistantly accurate hunting bullet I've ever worked with and they do kill rather efficiently. jorge

As Ray said, this fall I tested penetration of various bullets in damp magazines with the 30-06 and included the 180 TSX, 200 gr Swift , 220 Partitions and 220 Woodleighs and the 240gr Woodleighs.
In order of penetration - with the deepest first - was the 220 Partition ( 13 inches) Followed by the 200 Swift and 180 TSX ( 11 inches) , 240 Woodleigh PP ( 10") and finally the 220 RN Woodleigh ( 8 1/2")
I also tested both 220 Woodleigh solids and the old Hornady 220 steel jacketed solids and they both exited 48" .

For a comparison I also fired 270 gr TSX from a .375 and got 11 inches, the 400gr Hornady DGX .416 ( 10 inches) , The 570 gr TSX from my 505 Gibbs ( 13 inches) and a couple of 900 gr Woodleighs from a 600 Overkill ( 9 & 13 inches)

You can see that in the penetration department that 220 Partitions give up little to other calibers. In fact I carried my 30-06 this season as backup during bear season and was forced to followup a wounded bear that charged from 5 yards.
Hopefully Rick can stick a photo of me and the bear on here.

Phil,

Good to hear you survived yet another season. Eileen, however, is worried about both of us surviving the next Single Malt season.

Am not surprised about your penetration tests, as they parallel mine.

If I survived this season I will probably survive our annual Single Malt get together.

Where do I buy tags and is a guide required??

Here's the photo Phil referred to. Nice bear!

Cool!
Man those things are huge!!

Wow ! And I was concerned about penetration on elk at bad angles. Thanks guys. E

We know Rick photoshopped a backbear there. That looks too good to be true. You are lucky you didn't get bit.

You know it's kind of funny, and certainly could be a thread all it's own, but when Alaskan's see this photo they say "wow, what a nice bear" and when they hear I used a 30-06 as my backup rifle they don;t bat an eye - but when rifle loony's, gun writers and editors see it and hear that I "only had a 30-06" they think that I'm lucky to be alive. what they don't realize is that for 50 years virtually every Alaskan guide use the 30-06 as their backup rifle - and every internet "expert" will tell you that bears were bigger then as well.

Welcome back, Phil.

Looking well. Good to read from you again. Interesting results reported on the penetration tests; and the allure of the .30-06.

Everyone realizes that penetration is but one dimension of wounding - placement of entry, direction of the wound in following, and extend of wound, both dimension and strucure/tissue-wise, being the other contributing factors.

So, while in penetration the 06 is on par, something made a world known, white bearded, alaskan guide switch to a .458 Win in a Mauser action. The man went through great length to make this an ultimate rifle for bear guiding - vey utilitarean, if a bit 'ugly'.

How I know? He wrote about it in Rifle magazine.



Thanks, btw, I learned a lot from that article.

I am not a big bore fan, nor am I a fan of hyper velocity rounds. I do see, however, a trend over the last century and a half to leave behind old fashioned ideas in favour of new, modern vastly superior (insert favourite name).

Large calibre, heavy for calibre, moderate velocity rounds have been reliable stoppers for a very long time on large tenatious of life creatures. That is historical fact.

There have been marked improvements made in projectiles over the last twenty years or so, and veocities can be increased to accomodate the desires of the speed afficiados without compromising the projectile. That is all well and good, but a slower moving large calibre round is still what is needed to reliably penetrate, and shock the fight out of a large dangerous animal.

I use small calbre like 308 for deer and moose, although I prefer 338 and over for moose. For bear thee is nothing like a 458 calibre to put them down. These are personal preferences based on personal experience over 45 years of hunting.

By the way Phil, I too chose the 3006 as backup on my African hunt last spring. That is a very nice bear. \congratulations

Randy

Phil,
Maybe this was stated earlier, but is that 30-06/220 partition setup using the faster twist barrel you were talking about a ways back?

Tim, can't speak for Phil, but Ive shot some 220s through my '06, both solid and soft, and never gave a thought to twist rate...also probably like Phil, never expected them to be used at any range that you could call long....they shot extremely well out to 100 yds. though...no tight twist...
Ingwe

The standard 10-inch twist in most .30-06 rifles comes from the original Springfields and the 220-grain roundnoses they fired. There is no need to go to a faster twist for any round-nose 220-grain bullet on the market.

Thanks JB...forgot about that original issue stuff...mine was a "pre-caffiene" post...
Ingwe

Ingwe and JB,
Thanks for the correction, fellows.

I musta been having a brain cramp, I suppose.

The barrel was made with a 1 in 8 twist as I wanted to make sure it handled heavy bullets well. It also shoots everything down to 150 grs quite well and even shoots 32acp ammo thru an ACE adapter well at 25 yards to the same point of aim as the 220's at 100yds.
There is a reason the 30-06 is still so popular world wide. It is so versatile and if the shooter makes the effort to place the bullet correctly it will suffice for anything. I haven't given up on my 458 though.

Thanks,Phil!


BTW, sounds like a nice rifle.

The charge must have knocked the scope off of Phil's rifle. Wonder if he used turrets or dots at that range...

Holy Christ Phil!! His head is bigger than your whole torso!

I have killed Cape Buffalo with the 06 and the 180 gr. Noslers and solids of unknown heritage..I have seen a couple of elephant killed with shoulder shots and head shots, one with milsurp ammo..

I would never attempt to fault the 30-06 and as those who know me know, it is probably my favorite caliber or at least among my favorite calibers..Anyone that has used it to any extent will love it..

I have yet to stop a charge with a 30-06 and don't really want to be there because the 3.5 charges I have faced with cape buffalo I had big 40 calibers and my thoughts at the time were "why don't I use a bigger caliber like maybe 500 Nitro Express or a Bazooka" Charging cape buffalo and I'm sure big bear are an awesome sight to behold, and they get more awesome as they get closer, A buffs eyes are big as ornages and red and bloodshot when he wants to kill you..Jeeez he is awesome! But its a rush, no doubt about it, and those that tell me they don't want any part of it, and they are many, must not be true hunters IMO..I wouldn't instigate a charge from any animal but when it happens, there is just nothing like it in this world...Guess that's why some guys bungie jump, now thats some scary stuff...:)

Maybe it's a sickness, I dont't know, but its my sickness....:)

Hell Ray, I'll be the first to tell you that I don't want any part of it. Every time I have to I ask myself why - and vow to never let it happen again. Doing is nothing like reading about it.

Phil,

just as a curisosity how to you compare the penetration with the ole 220 grains core-lockt ???!!!

I don't know Phil, I've never killed a big Brownie (or any Brownie for that matter), just some nice blackies, and my paltry credentials fall far short of an expert, but no way I would ever consider an 06' for say a lion, much less that bulldozer with hair and claws in that picture you posted! I have a friend of mine who has hunted bear with the "Rosen somethings" (sorry can't recall the name) and he recommends the 416. Not being disagreable, just disagreeing with the 06 as a stopper. Cheers, jorge

For over fifty years the vast majority of Alaskan guides carried 30-06's for everything - including backup - and were happy with it. With today's bullets and the ability to load it heavier it is even better.
I know of a few African PH's with decades of experience who claim that they prefer their 30-06's ( one prefers it over has original 416 Rigby) for following wounded cats - both leopard and lions - as cats are so blazingly fast that they feel the nanosecond faster handling of a lighter 06 offsets the bit of extra power.

I certainly am not recommending that the 30-06 is the best stopper - but I have stopped a number of wounded bears besides this one over the past thirty years with my 30-06 and it works just fine so long as the bullets are correctly placed.
the point is that correct shot placement is the single most important factor in stopping anything and no amount of excess power, bullet weight or bore size will offset that.

Phil...I'm with 'ya...I wouldn't hesitate to use the '06 and 220 gr. combo on LOTS of stuff....
Don't have your level of experience, but I'd do it anyway...
Long ago my mother got used to hearing " That boy ain't right...."

Ingwe

Phil: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I know of no PH that prefers an 06 for following up lions and while Craig Boddington's two surveys done about 15 years apart, the 06 did't show up in that regard, but I don't for a moment doubt your word. Hell, if YOU say it works, it's good enough for me. We are in complete agreement on the shot placement issue, in fact Ganyana just has an article in the latest issue of the African Sporting Gazette where he tells of shooting buffalo with a 22 Hornet, almost all one shot kills. Having just been involved in the shooting of two buffalo, perfectly shot, I believe I'll pass on the Hornet. jorge

Reading an article makes me a national expert. Therefore I will chime in.

I read about an Alaskan guide who switched to the .458 Winchester. If I remember correctly he uses 350 soft noses. He said since he switched, he had to follow up on ten grizleys. He said it made no difference where he hit them or what angle, they all dropped at the shot. This includes animals that were comming at him or going away.

Kinda like shooting a squeek with a .22 rimfire.

I don't know who that guide was as I prefered the 500 gr Hornady bullets for many years, then after Finn Aagaard gave me a box of Jack Carter's new TB bullets I used them. I eventually tried and liked the 400 X as well as the 400 Swifts and Kodiaks.
I have stated that I have never had a bear stay on it's feet when I hit it well with my 458 - but even big bullets still have to be well placed.

Phil,
I wouldn't know I have never been charged by a bear...A Lion charge is the most fearsome thing I have encountered, and it totally wiped me out! wow! and wow again!...Hippo and buffalo are a maidens caress compared to a Lion and the evil in his eyes!

Ray, I'm sure that every animal and every situation is different but - if you can imagine a wounded, angry, vindictive animal nearly the size and tenacity of a buffalo, almost as quick as a cat, hiding in brush as dense as anything found along the Zambezi - then you'll have a good idea of what following a wounded bear is like.

It's not pretty and it's not fun and is why when a hunter tells me not to shoot their animal I tell them I have no intention of shooting their animal but if they do it poorly then it becomes my problem and I will shoot if I deem it necessary.

This was a very good,and informative thread.Thanks to all those who contributed.One of the better one's!

I particularly liked the very clear,and decisive descriptions of how the various bullets performed and what you can expect from them....free and clear of drivel and speculation.

Agree Bob. This is how multi experience folks with differing experiences should have a discussion.

We all benefit when ego's and deference to experience are the norm.

I was deer hunting in Maine last weekend and was doing so with my reworked cz 375 because it's the rifle I have this year. I had the barrel cut to 23" and it makes a marked difference in the way it feels in my hands. At any rate, to finish off the day I made a little push through an alder thicket that was probably 80 yards deep. Practically the whole way through I could think of nothing else but what it must be like to go through that or worse to weed out a wounded bear. I can tell you that 23" barrel felt mighty long right then. I was also thinking there would not be a whole lotta time to make a good shot if needed and how easily a bullet of any caliber could be deflected by verge. I can imagine how at close quarters like that good ammunition is worth its weight in gold since striking velocity must be quite close to muzzle velocity.

I had an opportunity to discuss the TSX philosophy, if I can call it that, with a Barnes staffer at the SHOT show last January. Tim Janzen was his name I believe. The long and the short of it was that the mono-metal bullets are tougher, and hold together at higher velocities, yielding deeper penetration than older cup and core (and even bonded & partition designs)because they didn't loose weight. If you do the math, energy at the impact is pretty much weight and speed based. Lighter and faster didn't work as well because the bullet failed at some speed. But now it doesn't fail. They open wide and punch a big hole, and go real deep, break bones and usually exit for better tracking. Logically, it makes sense. And most of what I read here confirms it's real world fact.

Ruark tossed his 4000 fps pea shooter because the bullets blew up on the shoulder of a warthog or Gazelle- results would be different today I guess.

I figure it's more the Indian than the Arrow (gotta place it right)!

I so want Phils Lon Paul 30-06, but try as I have, no dice so far! Guess I'll build one like it..I just restocked my Win. 95 30-06 with a shotgun butt an it sure feels better now. It will be shoot with only 220 gr. Noslers, Woodleighs and Sierras. I like the softer Woodleighs and Sierras for deer. The Noslers will take an elk going away without a problem, I know that for a fact.

Phil did find me a geat little Brno 21 a couple of weeks ago and it turned out to be a real collector so Kudos on him..ONly problem is that it's a collector and I'm too hard on a gun to have a collector, and being a round top and not D&T for a scope, so I probably need to swap it off for another Brno 21 or 22 with the double square bridges, that should not be hard as this one is really a nice collectable gun.

Vagabond,

TSX's are great bullet, but would like to comment on something in your post that's a common misconception. Retained weight is NOT the most important factor in penetration, everything being equal in a bullet. Frontal area is. If a bullet opens into a big, wide "mushroom" it won't penetrate nearly as deeply as a bullet that doesn't open up so widely.

One of the reasons TSX's (similar bullets such as the discontinued Combined Tectnology Fail Safe and Nosler E-Tip) penetrate so deeply is that even if they do open up to a certain diameter (and usually it's not all that wide, especially when compared to some bonded-core bullets) there are spaces in between the petals. This the big reason they penetrate so deeply. Retained weight is also important, but a secondary factor. I have seen bullets that retained 90-95% of their weight and didn't penetrate all that deeply, because they opened up so widely.

The fact is that there are indeed some bullets that will, for all practical purposes, penetrate just as deeply as a TSX, even though they lose some weight.

Thanks Mule Deer. I enjoy a good discussion! In good spirits, of course. There is so much to consider when evaluating bullet tech - keeping mind that different game makes different design more desirable.

Those bullets you mentioned that didn't penetrate deeply because they opened too wide, that is a "failure" - We'd agree I suppose that the "controlled expansion compromise" is the goal, not maximum diameter. Bullets that expand too much or quickly don't reach the targeted organs to be effective. That's why the high velocity calibers got a bad rap originally, they delivered the projectile faster than the design of the projectile could stand. Bullet tech catches up to Roy Weatherby! Partition and A-Frames both use a barrier to stop expansion at some point- other brands use different techniques to stop "over expansion failure". But these designs give up weight, and that is not a good thing.

You ended with a "fact" that I have to question:
(I assume we aren't including solids/FMJ's because they don't create a good wound channel? They lose virtually no weight and penetrate really deep compared to expanding bullets.)

"The fact is that there are indeed some bullets that will, for all practical purposes, penetrate just as deeply as a TSX, even though they lose some weight."

ONLY IF THEY HAVE LESS EFFECTIVE FRONTAL AREA !!
Think about it. I assume we're talking equal weight and velocity to start? Given what you posted, I surmise they penetrate as deeply in spite of lost weight because they present a smaller frontal area, and therefore a smaller wound channel? And this is advantageous in what fashion? Bigger is better in wound channels I think. As I understand inertia, lost weight at a given point in time, will yield a bullet that slows faster than the bullet that lost none or less at the same time. Less inertial "kinetic" energy to carry it forward if resistance is the same, so resistance has to be reduced to go as far or farther. Correct?

You didn't miss the fact that the TSX has a smaller "effective" frontal area because of the petal design, but don't overlook the big wound channel because of the size of the widest point petal to petal. This, I think, is a good thing.

As to the expansion of the TSX, I can't tell you numbers on the bonded core bullets, but I can tell you that a recovered .308 TSX BT that killed a wild hog measured .6655 (my measurements with digital calipers). That is a 216% of original diameter. "...not all that wide..." Really? What can we expect from bonded cores?

I figure the increased initial "hematoma" from the higher velocity combined with a 5/8 inch hole deep into the vitals or completely through will work for most PG. I hope I'm right, cause TSX it is for me on my 2010 Africa trip!

I look forward to your thoughts!

"Aim small, miss small"

You will do fine with the TSX on your safari. They are great bullets.

My main point was that bullet performance is more complex than the simple theory of extra weight retention makes it sound.

Some weight loss usually results in a bigger wound channel INITIALLY, on the side of the animal the bullet enters. This results in a bigger hole in at least the near lung, and maybe the far lung, even if the bullet does eventually end up with a smaller frontal diameter. And a bigger wound channel in vital organs is what kills, not hematoma.

I have also seen TSX's (and bullets like them) open up to more than twice the original diameter, but in general they don't create the tissue destruction of bullets that open up wider, or even lose some weight. This is on average. There are always exceptions to average peformance with any bullet.

But I have seen bonded-core bullets open up to three or even more times their original diameter. It depends on the deign of the bonded-core bullet. Again, a lot of people like to make up "rules," such as bonded-core bullets open up to 3 times original diameter (or extra weight retention means more penetration). There is a wide variety of frontal area between a typical expanded North Fork, Trophy Bonded and Woodleigh, for instance.

You are mistaking one phenomenon with what might be called "pre-premium" bullets (the failure to even penetrate any vital organs) with what wider-opening or partial-loss premium bullets do. I have yet to see a Woodleigh, for instance, fail to penetrate the vitals of a big game animal no matter how widely it opened--and they will indeed make a bigger hole than any bullet that doesn't open up that widely. This is assuming, of course, a reasonable match between bullet, cartridge and game.

My final point is one that I've made before: If penetration was the entire "secret" to bullet performance, we'd all be using solids, even on whitetail does.

Vagabond: Good post and good exchange between you and MD;thought provoking stuff!

What can you expect from Bonded Cores? Like MD says, it varies with type and design of bonded cores,but here are some examples taken from some I recovered.I'll cite starting velocity,distance at impact, and approximate penetration to give perpsective:

1)7mm 160 Bitterroot Bonded Core(BBC)-3100 fps mv;into back of neck,just forward of shoulders(from behind) of bull elk at app 175 yards.Recovered under chin.

Retained Weight(RW)-157 grains.
Expanded Diameter(ED)-.604

2)7mm-140 BBC- started at 3300 fps,into on-side shoulder of large mule deer buck at app 75 yards.Recovered against hide just forward of off-side rear ham.Buck DRT.

RW- 132 grains
ED- .660

3)7mm 140 BBC- Started at 3100 fps from 280;into ribs of 300# black bear at 60 yards,into off side ribs,and recovered under hide.Bear down at impact;did not get back up.

RW- 136.9 grains
ED- .709

4)250 gr BBC,375H&H started over 2900 fps through shoulders bones of Alaskan BB at app 175 yards.Two others fired, one into lungs and into shoulders;both exited with large exit wounds,not recovered.

RW- 243.7 grains
ED- .861 to .909;depending on where you measure the frontal area.

I'd have to say that in each case,penetration was quite good despite substantial frontal areas,the bullets only being stopped by the stretchy off side hide.Might add that none of these have petals torn off from impact.And wound channels were very substantial in each case.

Good discussion on a complex subject due to no end of variation in bullet construction and materials, impact velocity,target resistance, etc.Large frontal area and completely sufficient penetration are not mutually exclusive characteristics,I think.

I suspect this is what you are both saying

Mule Deer,

"My main point was that bullet performance is more complex than the simple theory of extra weight retention makes it sound."

I agree with your main point, and after the "novel" I wrote I suppose it'd be silly to say otherwise! I was enjoying the exercise though.

What I didn't bring up backs up your point even more: Over penetration carries potential wounding energy out of the vitals area. I think a bullet that breaks the "off" shoulder and stops has done it's job to it's best potential (or some similar wound). Punching a hole on the "off" side only helps the tracking, not the killing, generally.

We're on the same page. I think for PG, there are several good bullets that would work in the real world equally well. My informal research amongst PH's opinions (at SHOT and on the net) seems to indicate they like clients to use the "new" Barnes bullets more often for PG than any other named brand, but the Nosler Partitions were frequently mentioned. Also mentioned were "bonded" bullets, "core locked" (Remington Core-Lokt?) and "premium". The focus in every case was placement, over any talk of bullets or calibers! They have probably seen a lot of gut shot game. Indian, not arrow.

RE: Barnes TSX use.
Barnes staff indicated a preference for lighter and faster over heavier and slower for PG. I had indicated that I was going to use a 180 gr or heavier TSX and the Barnes guy specifically indicated a preference for going to a 168 gr to pick up speed. Aside from the obvious aiming implications, I gathered the design worked better at higher speeds. BUT the floor of the SHOT show was filled with opinions that heavier is better regardless of the engineers reports! Seems your John Locke quote is at play here.

The 168 gr TSX BT shoots nice, consistant groups from my gun and behave well at 3100 fps or so. Thats a load right out of the Barnes manual, toward the low end (range is 88.0 to 96.5 gr of H1000, I'm at 90.0). I think it's all I'll need for my intended targets.

Later!

Steve

I tend to agree about lighter/faster with TSX's to a certain extent, and the 168 is pretty deadly from a .300 magnum in my experience. The higher velocity tends to create more damage inside.

But I also think that we have SO many good bullets these days that it's hard to make a big case, most of the time, for one over another. This is a result of having used just about all them some myself (and some of them a LOT), and also seeing a lot of animals killed with them. Was on a PG hunt a couple of years ago that was also a large-scale culling deal, along with a number of other hunters that I often accompanied. Was in RSA a month and got to see many animals taken.

The two primary bullets used were TSX and AccuBond, as I recall with 11 rifles shooting one and 11 shooting the other. There wasn't more than a scattered representation of other bullets, I'd guess because of the publicity the TSX and AB have gotten in recent years.

All I really noticed was that if the animal was hit well then it died! Both bullets worked very well, on animals from springbok to eland, with lots of the mid-sized PG taken: gemsbok, wildebeest (both kinds), kudu, waterbuck, zebra, etc. The guy who had the most 1-shot kills used 225 AB's in a .338. He had something like 12 1-shot kills in a row, before he tried to get fancy with a couple of head-shots (for skins) toward the end, and ended up with a couple of misses. But before that was deadly--mostly because he shot really well. But the TSX's also did fine, one guy shooting them really well out of a .270 WSM on a wide variety of animals.

We are lucky to have so many fine bullets available these days, and except for certain specialized purposes we could just as easily just pick one and go hunting. If we place it right the animal will be dead!

JB:
I just priced the Nosler AccuBond in .308 and they are quite a bit less expensive than TSX bullets. I'll have to consider them for the next trip! I agree that they are probably equals in the real world of practical purpose. Right now I'll load my .300 RUM to .300 WinMag levels with the TSX - it seems to like them. And...I already have a few boxes of them!

BobInNH:
I had not seen the Bitterroot Bonded Core brand before (I've lead a sheltered life down here in "South New York City") so I studied a bit on line -found a good article at http://www.dakotaarms.com/DakotaMag/DMsummer05/page46-48.pdf about these bullets. I think they confirm the Barnes philosophy a bit - velocity increases possible with premium bullets are a good thing! I didn't price them, but after this excursion I will check them out!

Great data on the RW and ED - I did notice all the examples had some heat coming out - 3000+ fps in each of them - and 2900 from the 375-- isn't that on the "fast for caliber" end of the spectrum?

I'm not a Weatherby kool-aid kid yet, but I do like the speed over the weight in general. I guess the "heavy for caliber" camp would disagree, who knows, maybe they'll convert me! And I haven't a clue about DG, so don't flame me for that - I believe that is a different discussion!

Steve


Steve

Vagabond:Unfortunatley they aren't made anymore.I'm an older guy(59) and only mention them because I laid in a substantial stash of them during the 80's and continue to use them.In truth their performance is kinda on a par with the Aframes and the Northforks today.

IIRC Bill Steigers started to make them in the late 60's or early 70's.There were few real premiums back then other than a Partition,and guys like John Wooters and Bob Hagel thought very highly of BBC's, wrote them up.They were the first bonded bullet to make a splash,but were handmade, expensive, and hard to get.You could only order 200 max at a time.

If you have access to Handloader and Rifle magazines from the 70's,there is a great article by John Wooters when he and Jack Carter used them in Africa.

They were the inspiration for Jack Carter's TBBC,and the Swift Aframe by Lee Reid..

They have very heavy pure copper jackets and pure lead cores; no partition. Steiger was very fussy about the materials he used because he felt it was essential to the bullet's performance.

As to the velocity thresholds,the faster you push them, the better they work.Steigers always emphasized this velocity thing and said you can push them very fast without concern.IME he was right.Bill always told me to use the 250 in the 375H&H, as it could be pushed faster and would work better than the 275 due to higher velocity. I have an aquaintance that has used the 250 gr in the 375AI at 3100 fps in Africa on Cape buffalo with good results. The 165 gr 30 caliber driven over 3200 in a 300 Win Mag is a great elk load.

As you can see they lose very little weight,and the copper jackets and cores are so well bonded they support each other;you very rarely see a petal torn off from high impact velocity,regardless of impact speed or nature of animal anatomy they hit.They are very rugged and reliable under all conditions,particularly well suited to high velocity..

They may not penetrate like an X type bullet,but IME always as far as you need,and are noted for early expansion and wide frontal area,especially at high impact speed.At long range(say 400 yards,as far as I have used them)they still expand and do a great job,but not as fully and will generally punch through due to smaller frontal area,unless started very fast at the muzzle.

They were a great bullet,even by todays standards,but no longer made,and in truth we have very good bullets today that more or less duplicate their performance.But they started a trend that continues today.

Hope this helps and gives some historical perspective FWIW.

Just got back from an Oryx hunt in Texas where I used 180gr TSXs out of my 300 H&H @ 3000 fps MV. Took a nice (35") Oryx at a lazered 200 yards. Quartering away shot so I placed the bullet abaft the last rib and angled it forward to the opposite shoulder. Complete penetration and about a 40 plus caliber exit hole. LOTS of devastation inside as I suspect the bullet expanded dramatically as it traveresed the paunch and into the vitals. Animal walked about ten yards and dropped. jorge

Jorge:
Congrats! That's a big bodied animal as well, how long do you think the pentration channel was before it exited?
Funny Story about bullet selection:
I read a post on Big Game Net I think, of a guy who said he was not ever going to use TSX again. I guess he was going for a Texas Heart Shot. He shot an Elk and the 180 gr went from the hindquarter to the neck along the spine, messed up the loin meat and stopped in the spine at the neck. Dead Right There! So why was he upset? All the petals came off the bullet (he even posted a pix of it IIRC). If the bullet would come apart that way, it can't be trusted...and I would add you can't fix stupid! I hope to heck he was kidding...he has a gun...

Steve

Toss aside the non-sense that the slower heavier is better with the TSX. Shoot them as fast as possible while retaining accuracy. Use the lightest bullet you can shoot great.

The difference is significant, TSX + high Velocity = devastating

They are far better then what we all grew up using cup and core technology!

This comes from seeing many hundreds of plains game killed with them over the last 5 years now.

JJHACK,
You have some pretty good engineering talent in agreement with you - the ballistics guy from Barnes, Tim, said pretty much the same thing! Of course they only have field reports of Barnes users, so their sample is biased. I happen to agree, but my experience is limited.

They of course, went a tad further, explaining why they were better than "bonded designs", but they already had my attention. I suppose the mono-metal camp got stonger when Hornady came out with their "me too" product- it'll be hard for them to run down mono-metals from here on out....and "bonded" really is an attempt to make different metals behave as if they were one...there I go stirring the pot! BUT Barnes muddied the water with the MRX line, no longer a mono-metal...I imagine someone out there right now is pushing for a max velocity load of a 165 MRX in .308 - more room in the case...or in .375!

Where do you think the tech will be in 5 years? Or has it topped out?

some well published gunwriters have made the same claim !!!!

I have seen all the petals come off not only Barnes X's but some other petal-type bullets. In each instance tha animal died really, really quickly--which is why I have published statements along the line of "Who cares?" When they lose their petals it's generally because they hit some big bone (often the spine), and even if they do the front end is always expanded beyond the initial caliber anyway, so acts as as a wider "flat-point," which is very deadly itself.

One of the monometals, the G-S Custom, is even designed to lose its petals at normal velocity ranges, and kills very well indeed.

Vagabond,

Just noticed your post on the SHO. No, they aren't all that big--about like big mule deer--but they are tough animals, as all oryxes are. And delicious!

John, you of course, are not who I was referring to.

I've had similar discussions with folks over the years who claimed that Nosler Partitons were no good either because the front half always came apart. They always seemed surprised when I told them it was supposed to do that and that all the pieces that were shed continued to do damage and created a wider, more lethal wound.

Yeah, Phil, I knew you weren't referring to me! In fact, I believe I know who you were referring to.

Still dunno if we are going to make it to any of the shows. Are you and Rocky going to travel further than SHOT and SCI this year? There is always more research that needs to be done beyond the hunting fields.....

JJH, and others. If barnes tsx fast = devastating. How fast is fast and how light/ cal do you go? I am sure how light/ cal. you can go depends on what it is you are shooting.
I guess maybe a better way to ask the question is what would be your target velocity? For example I have a 7mm-08, 280 ackley and 7mm weatherby. Should I pick the 120 tsx and go for max vel in each? Or pick the bullet that reaches a certain optimum vel. for each case?
Just like everthing in life I would imagine you try to find a nice balance. 120 for the 7mm-08 and 280. 140 gr for 280 and 7mm weath.
Dean

Dean I use the 140 TSX on my 7mm Weatherby. Works great even on small deer. If you speak with the Barnes people, almost without exception, they recommend you step down in weight in order to increase velocity. jorge

So how fast do the barnes folks like their bullets shot? Dean

No pass through here. The first two are Woodleigh 470, the rest are 350gr 416 and 180gr 300 Swift A Frame. The Woodleigh were from about 30 feet, the 416 from 75 and 100 yds. The 300 were from 175 and 240 yds.

We are a strange breed I suppose - the product does what it should, in spite of the user, and there is still fault with it. Oh well. To each his own. Or in the case of Congress, someone elses...

Really doesn't much matter how fast..

The slow side is where to watch out..the TSX copper alloy is meant to open up ( slightly...) down to about 1700 fps on impact.
Keep your impact velocities up, and your mushrooms will appear...

Ingwe

Phil,
The NP was one of the top bullets in the opinion of PH's I've "surveyed". A-Frame and AccuBond are direct comparables. Hard to go wrong with any of the Tier 1 bullets if it's used as designed.

Jim,
Pretty pix- is there a story with those gems?

Eyeguy:
BarnesBullets.com has all the details. They'll answer the phone when you call with a question too.

Night all.

With the TSX Barnes recommends stepping down a bullet weight and running them fast because they do substandard damage at sedate speeds. All in the name of increased penetration, which is rarely needed.
To be honest they dont do excessive damage even when impact velocity is high.
Just my 2 cents.

At this time I am shooting the 140 tsx out of my 7mm-08, the 168 tsxbt out of my 30-06 and the 210 tsxbt out of my 338. The all run 2950-3050 muzz. vel.. I have always liked the performance. So probably dont need to change anything but always fun to tinker and try a new load on non-dang. game.
I have shot the barnes mz bullets on deer in the late mz season for years. We found that the 250 and 300 gr bullets made 2 good holes in the deer. The 220 gr bullet killed them fine but no faster, and only one hole on most shots. So for us the 250gr [now it is a 245 XBT] was the best for speed and performance.
I could call barnes but wanted some field reports on performance at 2900 impact speed vs. 3100 vs. 3300... Dean

We were camped on the RUVU river and hunting MK1 and Gonabisi area on a 7 day buff and plains game hunt. We had been asked to provide 6 buffalo and 12 wildebeest for a village. Sometimes you just get lucky. We only took 4 buff and 6 wildebeest because their tractor to haul the meat broke down. Oh well.

The 470 were head on shots at two different buff in the long grass. Each one took a finishing shot. The solid was found in the hip, the soft was found in the gut.

The 416 were at buff in more open country. The first one was at approx 100 yards, angling slightly away. Shot just hind shoulder, angled through off shoulder, and was found under skin. He moved about 25 yards. The second one was at 75 yds head on where the "V" of the neck joins the shoulder. DRT

The first 300 was on an Oryx, range finder said 242 yds. He was facing away at about 45 degrees. Shot angled from rib cage to off shoulder. Bullet was found under skin. DRT. The second 300 was on a Kudu standing broadside about 250 yds. Shot was just behind shoulder, a little high, hit the spine. DRT.

Now you know the rest of the story

Jim,
And I do appreciate you relating it. Thank you Sir. Tractor broke down? And you were having so much fun "working"!

May we all have a chance to test our choice of armaments as thoroghly as you have!

Hi All
My opinion as a guide/outfitter over here is that you need to balance bullet weight to animal size as well as shooter ability. I have many hunters coming through that use 30-06's as well as 300 Win mag of mine and have found the best combo is a 165 Nosler accubond in 30-06 and a 180 Accubond in 300. Velocity is similar in the 2 options, but recoil is way less in the 30-06. I also have the option of Suppressors on one of each caliber that are more often than not chosen by the youngsters and lady hunters (Minimal recoil and very little noise)
I believe that the 180 grainer is probably the best choice all round, but my rifles shoot the above best and as we all know , placement is king

TSX, NP, A-Frame? Kobe, Dirk, LeBron? Close your eyes and make a choice. It won't be wrong.

300 with a 180 TSX works well.

So does a 180 TSX in the '06....

Ingwe

Hi, Russ,

How're things going? Good to see you posting here.

John Barsness

If one stops and thinks about it the European bullets such as the tug tig torpedo and a bunch of others that we used back in the good old days of cup and core only bullets were far better than anything we had to offer Why?, because they blew the front section off inside an animal and the base made an exit hole!! The Europe boys still use those same bullets and they work today just like they did for us many years ago..The old screw gizzie Nolsers almost always blew the front section off..Todays nosler may blow the lead out but you still have petals and a big expanded bullet on the offside skin or a big exit hole..I have a number of these from buffalo and they killed buff like the hammer of clyde ( thor ticks Mule deer off )

I will suggest that in bullet making like most things there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Phil, when can I have that LP rifle?

The Hammer of Clyde! Can I use that one, Ray?

Actually it's not Thor that ticks me off, it's finding our that so many bullets, cartridges, etc. kil like the hammer of Thor, every dang time, but I have never been able to find any bullet, cartridge, etc. that does the same dang thing....

Muledeer,
Feel free to use clyde!

Like you, I believe that total repeatability is impossible to accomplish so the bullet companies come as close as possible and they do a great job for the most part. Our bullets today are so much better than the bullets I had to use early on in my life..Those old bullets usually failed to one degree or another, but they almost always killed the animal thank goodness, but an ocassional hard tracking job insued.

I love the Nosler partition bullet, it has worked for me exceptionally well..I can say the same about North Fork, Woodleighs and GS Customs and the old Remington round nose corelokt that usually won't shoot very good groups, but always performs on animals.

Every Swift I have recovered looked just like those pictured in one of the above posts, picture perfect, in fact they are TOO perfect, they are as smooth as a babys butt, they don't have that ragged flesh tearing arms tht you find with Woodleighs and Noslers and on ocassions they fail to leave a very good blood trail and don't kill quickly has been my experience, but I have never lost an animal because of this, just had to deal with the frusteration. The Swifts have been outstanding on big stuff like buffalo??

I reckon that's what makes a horse race, we pick our favorites and bet on them, otherwise all bullets, guns, dogs, horses, cars,clothes and females would looke alike!