I'm not planning a trip to Africa nor do I intend to hunt any dangerous game but I'm kinda interested in something...

When it comes to bolt actions, most professional hunters and guides who may face animals that can kill them reportedly prefer to use a controlled-feed action. One internet source says that CZ, Winchester, and sometimes even Ruger bolt actions are used as the foundation for working, professional hunter rifles. Does anyone here have personal knowledge of the manufacturers and action types that professional hunter's in Africa use? Can you post links or pics?

See also: Rifles for Africa

I'm not talking about the rifles that rich guys from the U.S. buy for their safaris. I'm talking about the guys who guide for a living and who do it year after year. What are those guys carrying?

Look at Gregor Woods' book RIFLES IN AFRICA. It discusses this very topic. I recall that the CZ/BRNO get the nod, with Sako's on the list too. I recall the knock against the Ruger was the small-esh safety.

When I was in the Biz and spending lots of time in Zimbabwe I saw Lots of Commercial and converted military 98 Mausers in 375 H&H, 458 Lott and 458 Win. For beginning and broke PH's as well as Gov't game scouts in Zim there are lots of older push feed model 70's in 458 Win purchased by the government long ago and still in service but these PH's will typically trade themselves into a Controlled round feed rifle in 458 Lott as soon as they can. CZ and BRNO (Same rifle) are well represented as are Winchester CRF's which are one of the favorites. One will see more 375's than the gun rags would have us believe.

I would be surprised if the PH's in other countries with good numbers of Elephant and Buff were much different excepting that in the areas where the hunt costs are much higher one might see more SxS double rifles than I saw in Zim.

Pretty similar - action preference wise- to what I see in Big bear country in Alaska but more 375's and fewer 458's up there and lots fewer CZ's since they have not always been a popular import or available in the large numbers that Winchester etc. have been.

+1 on the Ruger small and too far rearward saftey issue. Never seen one yet in the hands of a PH, nor a model 700 for a myriad of good reasons.

Only one I can comment on is the PH I hunted with. His backup is a Model 70 in .416 Rem Mag. I don't know if it's push feed or CRF. I imagine CRF. He also has as a 375 H&H but that's mainly the gun he rents to clients.

My PH in Zim was left-handed,he had a converter LH Winchester in .458 Lott.

I've only got 4 safaris to base this on, but these are the observations.
Fully half of the PHs I've met carried a .375.(CZs and old Winchesters) Of the other half, many of them had a .458 Lott, usually in a CZ or Brno. .416s made a weaker showing with Rigby leading, and a single Rem Mag and one Weatherby. One who didn't yet have his DG ticket had a .425 Westley Richards. I sent him a set of dies after I got home since the SA price was rediculous. One had a .458 Win.
If there is a unifying theme to this unscientific survey, its that many chose their caliber by the likelyhood of the clients keeping them in free ammo. Those that didn't have a Lott or .375 often got the rifle as a gift to help them get started. Exactly none owned a double rifle, many owned a Remington as a light rifle.

Mine is a Win Model 70 and every PH I know used a CRF except for a single guy that used a Sako. He used that Sako 375HH for everything and was the most experienced PH I have ever met on lion hunting. He worked about 25 lion hunts at that time and probably has doubled that number by now. He also did several hundred DG hunts for all the other big 6. Still using that thread bare old Sako and making a living on DG hunts.

Without a doubt the "status" of a Model 70 CRF with most PH's is well known. The majority have a CZ or BRNO but just about all I know aspire to one day have a model 70. It's somewhat interesting to also mention that far and away the majority use the 375HH not a big bore. This goes for DG as well as PG. Some have a 458 or a 458 lott 500 jeffry etc. But the vast majority I have worked with pack a 375HH.

The CRF/PF debate has been going on for years and will probably never be put to bed.....

I'm left handed and have used a LH Weatherby (pushfeed) rifle for over 20 years, which is most of my professional hunting career.

The rifle started life as a 416 Wea and I had it rebuilt to 500 Jeffery.

In all the years I've had it, I've never had a single problem and never wished it to be CRF.

I'd say there's several far more important criteria for a dangerous game rifle than whether it's CRF or PF, such as short barrel, fast handling, well balanced and good quality open sights.

Carrying rifles for PH's I know:
500NE WR dr
500NE Kreighoff dr
470NE Kreighoff dr
465NE H&H dr
450NE 3 1/4" Heym dr
459NE 3 1/4" ? dr
450 Ackley on Brno
458 Lott on Mod 70 crf
458 Lott on LH Mod 70 crf
458 Lott on SA Sabi action crf
458wm on Mod 70 crf
458wm on Mod 70 crf
458wm on Mod 70 crf
458wm on Mod 70 pf
416R on Mod 70 crf
416 Rigby Mod 77 crf
416 Rigby on Sabi action crf

I know that all of the PH's who carry or carried doubles started out with bolt rifles, most a 458wm or a 458 of one sort or another. Most still have them as well. Some of those with 458's of one sort or another traded up from 375H&H's.

Only one traded down, from a 458wm to a 416R, and then only because he shot out his 458wm barrel and was saving $'s to have it rebarreled.

All of the PH's listed hunt elephants, some occasionally, some very frequently.

JPK

Read Craig Boddington's book, Safari Rifles II. In it he has a poll of African PH's and the rifles they use.
Very interesting and informative.

Do most PH's use their DG rifles as they come or do they tend to make some modifications?

If they get themselves a nice CRF 458 Lott they will use it as is. Same same with a good quality double gun. The gunsmiths in Zim do a fair bit of business converting 458 Win's to the Lott round. Yes, with handloads a 458 Win can do what it was supposed to do and modern ammo is much better than the stuff that was available a couple of decades ago but its reputation has already been tarnished and old ideas die hard in the PH world. Also, most PH's have to rely on factory ammo and 458 Lott Factory loads are nearly always good stuff. Also, 458 Win ammo can still be used in a Lott chambered rifle. A win win where ammo can be problematic to get. Good open sights (Some like peeps, some like express sights) will be added if the rifle did not come so equipped. CZ's do have terrific express sights as they come from Momma.

I had my 500 custom built to my own specification and measurements but most will start with a factory rifle and then often have alterations such as barrel shortening done.... although it's now becoming more popular to have custom rifles built from scratch.

I'll have to disagree with Mark about ammo though. I know an awful lot of PHs and all but a handful load their own.

good in fo in the links. All hunters planning an African hunt should read them.

I am a control feed person, I have seen some funny things happen with push feeds so I don't use them anymore, but I know several PHs that do, for whatever that means..Most PHs I know reload ammo. Most PHs have a lot of factory ammo and handloaded ammo around camp that hunters leave for them, a nice jester as they cannot jump in the car and go to town to pick up a box of ammo. If someone loses their ammo on the plane then there is a good chance the PH will have some on hand..

I know a lot of PHs that are outstanding hunters that can't shoot particularly well and don't know squat about guns. I know PHs that are not very good hunters in fact and I know some PHs that are both great hunters and know a lot about firearms, hell I know trackers in Africa that can't track for squat and I know others that can track a lizzard by the tracks his shadow leaves on rocks! ..Kinda like any other vocation in the world huh!

My suggestion is use them both and then make up your own mind. The best way to to learn is by experience, also the hard way so it leaves you with a written in stone opinion..I qualify for being opinnionated I have been told..so be it, I am still a sweet lovable old fellow! my dog told me so.

Thanks to all who have replied. This is all purely academic since I'm just a middle class American who will never have the means to hunt in Africa. The most dangerous thing I may encounter will be feral hogs, black bear, or mountain lions. For some reason unknown even to me, I suddenly became very interested in the choices of "working" bolt actions for PH's.

FWIW, I'm already a big fan of Mausers, having owned a few military versions. I'm especially a fan of CZ and sorely wish I had kept my 550 American. I currently have a CZ 527 FS in .223 which I like very much. I am seriously considering some kind of Battue such as THIS or THIS or possibly another FS/Mannlicher in .308 Win for deer and hogs despite the fact that I have rifles already adequate to that need. Buying guns can turn into a sickness for which there is no known cure. I'm afflicted.

From Shakari, "I'll have to disagree with Mark about ammo though. I know an awful lot of PHs and all but a handful load their own."

This mirrors what I have found. In fact, other than one appy, I cannot recall an appy or PH who did not roll their own, or have a good friend do it for them as they helped.

JPK

My comments were related to Zimbabwe, as stated, and there it is illegal to handload or own reloading equipment. Some may do so, but at risk and so it is much less common there.

Where legal, and especially where getting factory ammo could be a problem it would sure be a good idea to roll your own.

In South Africa with the PH's and over the years I was in Zim I knew exactly two PH's besides me that reloaded. In other words including me I Knew three. There was a older German gunsmith in Pretoria that loaded ammo for dozens of PH's including most of those I know or worked with. Whenever needed we would make a trip to pick up or drop of hunters at the airport we would swing by and fetch the ammo in Pretoria. Even if we did not go fetch them the driver would stop and get it for us. Until the rules changed and it required a possession permit to get it from the shop.

This reloader seemed to have a pretty good business loading custom ammo for lots of PH's. He also did a fair amount of gunsmith work too.

Ken Stewart of Stewart Bullets who live in Pietersburg also loads a lot of ammo for guys (esp PHs) in Zim & Bots. He'll also make cases and/or bullets of absolutely any calibre to order.

That is really handy. It allows old or obsolete (such as 375 Ruger ha ha) to be procurred. If a person was worried about loosing ammo they could order a couple boxes to their specs and be assured they would hunt their own rifle. |Thanka for the info. How much lead time does he require? I suppose a request for ammo should be made when booking the hunt.
Randy

Randy,

I'm not sure about his delivery time nowadays but he's never been particularly fast I'm afraid!

In any business, if you are in high demand, you can work at your own pace and people will wait.

Ken is in his 70s (at least) now and is also an absolute prefectionist and never does anything fast..... FWIW, he's also an incredible guy. He was one of the old East African PHs, knew or was related to all the old names such as Alan Black etc and also served his apprentiship as a PH with Alan. - Later he had his own game capture business at a time when they used to chase after the game in old Land Rovers and Champs etc and then lassoo them. He also provided all the game for the Born Free movie.

Some of his pics of the old days are breathtaking!

Norma are now making some of his bullet designs.

My PH had a Win 70 CRF custom in 458 Lott. Weighed about 6 1/2 lbs with plastic stock and no scope. He said it kicked a bit.

My PH had a Win 70 CRF custom in 458 Lott. Weighed about 6 1/2 lbs with plastic stock and no scope. He said it kicked a bit.

Would anyone consider a Sako 85 C.R.F.?? And are they as reliable as a Win 70 or a CZ??

I am pretty sure the Sako's are not true CRF. Have not handled one for a while so I cannot say unequivicably but I have also not ever seen one in Africa.

Texagator,
You might discover that Africa could be cheaper than Alaska if you are talking about plains game and not the "Big Five".

Rugers may have a claw extractor, but they are not a controlled round feed IMO.

Find yourself an old Mauser action and try it out yourself.
You will see the difference.

A true controlled round feed must be fed by the magazine
and not directly into the chamber.

If you want a very reliable rifle try an old FN Belgian commercial Mauser like a Browning Safari.You can pick them up at gun shows once in awhile usually because the owners no longer able to hunt because of age.

They were very high quality and still are a good choice IMO.
whelennut

I guess if you are just opining that's ok, but the fact is Ruger (MKIIs) are CRFs. jorge

Yes, the Mk11 are control feed rifles..mark one up for JorgeI.

I might add that GS Customs of South Africa makes as good a game bullet that I have ever used, which is surprising as I am normally not a big fan of monolithic bullets, but these babies work like a charm and I have never seen or heard of one failing, not so with the other monolithics I have used.

PS.
I ain't using no damn push feed rifle on DG!

I've got a few rugers and winchesters and a Montana action. There all CRF, however the Rugers will eventually lock the rim to the bolt face where the winchesters and Mausers do it the very instant the shell comes from the magazine.

I have seen a few rugers that were as flawless as a winchester with this process, not sure if they were worked on or just lucky? The rugers I have in my own cabinet will not grab the shell until the bolt is much closer to being closed then the winchester and Montana or a true mauser is.

Just as an example my Hawkeye with the muzzle pointed at the ground and the bolt cycled when a shell comes up from the magazine will slide right down into the chamber. it does not go under the extractor. With the others it sliders under the extractor ever time.

They are both CRF but the precision of the Ruger is a bit less then the way the others function. Certainly way better the a PF, but it's just missing the artistic and ingenious function of the Mauser/Win/dakota/montana-- etc.

That has been my experience with Rugers as as well. Sometimes it seems to be cartridge specific. I had a Mark II in .350 Remington Magnum for a while that I had to work on for a couple of hours one afternoon to get to feed smoothly, and even then it didn't pick up the rim all that quickly.

On the other hand the Ruger Hawkeye in .375 Ruger I had for a while was the slickest feeding rifle chambered for a dangerous-game cartridhe that I have ever seen out of the box. It fed flawlessly and smoothly no matter how rapidly or slowly the action was worked, and what the shape of the bullet.

Just for the record, have even seen one military Mauser 98 action that wouldn't feed the cartridge it was chambered for (7x57).

wow! I have never seen a milsurp Mauser that wouldn't feed, but hey they were made by man...

I tweek every gun that I am going to hunt with, and I mean I really tweek them, especially DG rifles, but I enjoy working on them so its no big deal..timeing is everything with a CFR..

wow! I have never seen a milsurp Mauser that wouldn't feed, but hey they were made by man...

I tweek every gun that I am going to hunt with, and I mean I really tweek them, especially DG rifles, but I enjoy working on them so its no big deal..timeing is everything with a CFR..

Who was it on one of these threads that said their gun would feed with them hanging upside down from a tree or underwater, Cool! but I have never shot a buff or any other animal hanging upside down with my rifles and I ain't going swiming in Africa with or without my rifle. Maybe the blood just rushed to that guys head a little fast before he posted.:):)

Yeah, that was a real weird one, a Mexican action. It took some work to get it to feed, but not as much as it took the Ruger to feed the .350 RM slickly....

I've not fooled with many of the Ruger MkIIs, but my 1992 vintage .338 Win Mag RSM feeds as slick (out of the magazine, rim under the extractor well before the round hits the chamber)as any Model 70, or Mauser (including a Brevex .375 that's a dandy). Guess it just depends on the individual rifle.

Based on just 3 safaris - I saw the PHs carrying 375 H&Hs on various Mauser actions for backup on DG (buff), but the outfitter had a 470NE W&S DR. On a PG hunt in RSA our PH carried no backup but kept an old scoped re-barreled 308 Win he inherited from his grandfather who'd shot it competitively for RSA.

Last hunt - for elephant - my PH carried a 500NE 3 1/4" DR and a tracker carried his scoped - 3x Leupold - 375 H&H for the PH to use on outbound follow ups. BTW, this PH loads for his 500NE. Another PH I met had a 416 RM Custom Shop SS/synthetic which shoots very well.

JB it soounds like you got your MK11 350 Rem. to feed, mine had a WSM box, not a normal magnum box, as confirmed by Ruger (same part # as for a WSM caliber) and my gunsmith could never get it to feed as one would expect.

100% of my experience is with Zim PH's, and like I said, they all roll their own or have a PH friend do it for them (except the one Appy, who was happy as hell to recieve my left over 458wm ammo.)

JPK

Interestingly, I just picked up a 243w, LH Hawkeye, my first ever Ruger. The action is rough as hell, even with some stoning, but it picks up the cartridge coming out of the box. CRF, like it is supposed to be.

If this rifle is representative of all Rugers, they need A LOT of work.

JPK

I have never been to Africa, but own several rifles that qualify. I sold my CZ 458 Lott as the recoil was more than I could handle. I kept my Sako 375 H&H as it was relatively pleasant to shot and very accurate to boot. My opinions:

1) Know your limits about recoil. If a 375 is too much, fine; consider foregoing the hunt for the bad boys.
2) Practice for a year before going, at least
3) Use the big guns for normal deer/bear/pig hunting
4) Take a second scope already mounted in rings
5) Take spare firing pins, extractors etc.
6) Walk like hell to get ready. No sense going and being tuckered out after the first day.

Damn I hate to confess to owning a Stainless steel gun with a damn plastic stock, but I bought a .338 Win MK11 from either one of the Mule Deers or maybe it was Ingwe out of the classified and it feeds slicker n snot, I didn't even have the pleasure of tweeking on it, scared to touch it, if it ain't broke, don't fix it..

Add to that it shoot 1/2 inch groups with some of the loads I have taylored for it and one inch with anything up to and including beer cans filled with IMR-horse-s--t. It is a really nice gun..I still don't like it much, but everyone should have one of those SS and plastic monstrosities.

Maybe a custom Exhibition Turkish walnut on a SS gun would make me happy, maybe add a quarter rib, barrel band front sight and swivel..

It's a good Ruger for sure. My Ruger 30-06, about a 1965 model I guess, but over the years it got a tweeking, then a 2 pos M-70 trigger, later on a controly feed conversion, and I cut 5 lbs of wood off that bulky stock, and added a nice checkering job and its a real nice Ruger now..A Christmas present from my youngest son.

Agreed. Ruger advertises CRF on the African, but I have a custom .458 built on that action and it is not a true CRF action. The extractor doesn't pick up the cartridge rim until the cartridge has been pushed off the stack and has traveled halfway to the chamber and then the rim clicks into the extractor. It's a pushfeed/CRF, for want of a better description, and you can short stroke it and jam it. I know because I did.

If you're going DG hunting with a Ruger African, you'd better spend a lot of range time with the rifle practicing your rapid fire. I intend to put at least 500 rounds of hot stuff through mine before I enter the fray.