I read how deadly these snakes are through the works of Peter Capstick, Boddington and such. Is there a season or time of year these snakes are more visible? Any members have personal experience or tales about these creatures?

We see them often enough, they are lightening fast and will get out of your way in nearly every situation. They like to hide in termite mounds and piles of dry or rotting wood.

during the time of year your likely hunting May through July they are not very active. I've seen them laying in the big dug out holes in the bottom of a termite mound. They can look almost dead laying there, but are just somewhat dormant when it's cold.

During the heat of the day they are sometimes in a warm sunny spot in a road, or even more frequently the branches of a tree. These snakes hunt birds more then anything else so they are often in trees.

I'm not very worried about Mambas as everyone I have seen is hauling a$$ out of town when you see them. Walking in a shoulder to shoulder path is a bad idea. Single file is better. Let the snakes get away, pinned between two people when walking abreast is a more likely issue.

The snake that is a bigger problem and more likely to be seen and give you trouble is the puff adder. They will just let you step on them and then bite you. They are slow and short tempered. The rinkals is another troublesome issue. they are fast as lightening and also seem to have a shorter temper then the mamba from my experience. They rise up and spread the hood, giving you fair warning much of the time. They can move through the branches of a tree as easy as a fish swims through water.

black mambas are pretty much every bit as deadly as you have read.....but as with most snakes 99 times out of 100 they will head the other way and you will prolly never see them cause they can generally feel your foot steps through the ground at a dozen yards, as can most any snake.....corner one and they are pissy, mean and lightning fast....

as JJ said puff adders would concern me more cause they are a sit and wait type critter and not an active hunter like the mambas......they are gonna sit tight and hope their camouflage keeps them hidden rather than try to run, invade their space and they might bite, step one one and they will defiantly bite whatever they can get ahold of........

the time of the year that your generally hunting the southern half of Africa is their winter, and while its nowhere as cold as mine, snake activity defiantly does take a down turn.....aint that yah wont see them cause it is still warm enough for them to be out and about, its just not as likely....

These posts are spot on IME...last time I went to Africa we went to Namibia in April..just so I could find some snakes...
Was not dissapointed....
Ive seen them less and less through the end of May...and Ive only encountered one snake of any kind in the months of June/July/ August....prime hunting season there...
As these guys said, even Mambas will make an effort to get out of your way...given the chance...they DO hunt birds, so those trees you see laden with huge Weaver Bird condos are not a good idea to walk under and poke around...mambas plus boomslangs....
The Puff Adders are an issue, I fiddled with a few on the last trip and have never seen a snake so reliant on their own camoflage...read that to mean they hold perfectly still, are next to impossible to see, and simply hope you go away...till you step on one...
They are one of the most beautiful snakes I have ever seen....

Ingwe

Good reason to be in Yukon..............no snakes

Glad I'm going in July.

Awhhhh...come on....

Snakes are cool.....

And only the venemous ones count.....

Ingwe

Want something that will scare the bejeezus out of you?

Try having a full-grown monitor lizard crawl under your Double Bull blind while bowhunting!

KRAPPP!!...I'll bet!

Savannah Monitors are just plain ugly-azzed....and I screwed up a stalk on Impala in Zim one day when I saw a 4 foot tree monitor go snaking up a tree and uttered a WTF is THAT ! out loud....

Ingwe

Two incidents come to mind...Last year a Mamba struck one of Pierre van Tonders trackers as they drove down the road. He was riding on the bumper and it hit him between the shoulder blades, but didn't penetrate the skin, hung up in his coat and spewed poison all over it..pretty scary, and he was fit to be tied while the camp staff made fun of him! They really thought it was funny...

About 5 or so years ago in Tanzania, I got out of the bakki and ran out and shot a Hartebeest for meat, I heard yelling and looked behind me and a Mamba was reared up and coming at me from about 25 feet and closing fast. PH H.M. shot at him and one of the buck shot hit a tree about an inch from my face, needless to say I took off like a rocket. He killed the snake with another shot..They tell me a man cannot outrun a Mamba but I doubt that, I did. A scared man is pretty swift, and I was about as afraid of the PH as I was the snake to tell the truth..I was not a happy camper that day. The PH only had one good eye, and a deadly fear of snakes, and he was short on experience. A good guy but lacking in judgment at the time. I never booked a hunt for him based on that experience and several other incidents.

In all the years I have hunted Africa that is the only close call I have had with a snake and actually I have seen very few black or green Mambas over the years.

Interesting story Ray, It jarred my memory. I was driving a dirt road trying to spot game and not paying much attention to the road. I hear "big snake" from the back of the truck, my hunter and his wife are yelling. I was about to turn and look back to ask where, when I saw the body going under the truck. I did not bother to hit the brakes and just kept going. I did not want to launch the passengers over the cab!

My window is open and my elbow out the opening of my cruiser. At about the time I realized I had gone over this mamba I heard a bang on the door right below the vent window. When I looked out the window, I saw the body of the mamba falling backwards.

At that moment I realized that I was within about 15-20" of being struck on the elbow while driving inside my cruiser. Mamba's are quite long. A 10-12 footer would be a nice size snake but I'm not sure it would be "huge"

Clearly there is a lot of snake remaining when you're going over the body with the front tire of your cruiser!

a person can outrun a mamba.....the fastest clocked mamba was under 13mph......an olympic sprinter can hit around 22mph.....guessing someone, in decent shape hopped up on adrenalin from the sight of a mamba headed for them could prolly hit somewhere between 15 and 18mph.....however if yah trip your screwed

Hope you don't mind me saying so but some of you blokes need to do a bit of studying up on your snakes.

There are two basic types of mamba, the green which is arboreal (lives in trees) and the black that lives on the ground. although there are a lot of old wives tales (esp) about mambas that should be ignored, mambas are generally considerably more aggressive and much more inclined to stand their ground than pretty much any other snake in Africa.

Puff adders are not an aggressive snake at all and their first line of defence is usually to play dead and about the only time you're liable to get bitten is if you actually step on one or you mess with one by doing something stupid like picking it up.

Admittedly a lot of people get bitten by puff adders but mostly beacause they do dumb things like think they really are dead and pick them up. Their fangs also fold back in their mouths which means less likely hood of a venemous bite. It should be noted that a dry bite is not uncommon with puff adder bites.

Most snakes such as cobras etc will sense your approach and duck out if the have an escape route, a mamba however is much more likely to raise the first half -two thirds of it's body off the ground and look to see what's approaching and only then duck out if it feels the need....... but it'll usually look first.

When you do come across them, the natural instinct is to get the hell out of the way asap..... however, most experts say you should just freeze as they spot movement a lot easier than a still object.... from my experience, that's correct.

It should be noted that mamba venom is neurotoxic and puff adder venom is cytotoxic.

chit man, if yah want to get technical there are 4(5 if yah really like to divide 'em up):

D. angusticeps (eastern green mamba)
D. jamesoni jamesoni (Jameson's green mamba)
D. jamesoni kaimosea (Jameson's black-tail mamba)
D. polylepis polylepis (black mamba)
D. viridis (western green mamba)

Here's a Puff Adder--

Interesting thread.

Rattler,

You're talking lumpers and groupers there but I take your point and should perhaps have added the word basic and will amend my post accordingly.

My point is that there are large behavorial differences between black and green.

push comes to shove, in the bush ill throw all of mambas in one group.....granted your more likely to find the blacks on the ground than the greens its far from a rule.....all of them are pissier than [bleep] when cornered and more than capable of handling themselves in a fight....

snakes dont scare me, even venomous ones.....ill mess with most any viper put in front of me and not worry bout it much, all move pretty well the same and act pretty well the same, with minor variations...be they a prairie rattler from here or a puff adder from there....

elapids, especially African elapids, like cobras and mambas i dont have much interest in screwing with, their locomotion is different, especially mambas, they are greased lightning to put it mildly and i aint willing to [bleep] with them.....they dont scare me so much...more like ive seen them in action in venomous keepers collections here in the states and they get a ton of respect from me....

I was on a crawl to get closer to a springbok and got to about five feet from a greenish brownish snake the size of a garter snake. Now let me assure you my fear of snakes verges on mental illness. I jumped up and shot at it kicking dirt in its face and it left the scene pretty quick. The PH and tracker tried to catch it to show me it was harmless but could not. The springbok were no where to be seen, and there was no lack of laughter by everyone but me zt the incident. My springbok was shot at 270 yds and I did no more crawling.

I am not saying my fear is justified, but you guys who mess with snakes are another kind of nutcase. In my humble snake scared opinion.

Randy

One of the fellas I went to school with in RSA is a Doctor that owns a large concession bordering the park.

We had a lot of conversation about snake bites in School and for the years after I hunted with him on his property.

He had seen a single Mamba bite in about 20 years of practice, but sees 100 Puff adder bites a year. I have seen Mambas exit the area as fast as they can move nearly every time I have seen them. I've never seen a single one come for a person unprovoked. Of Course the definition of "provoked" is determined by the mamba not the person.

I've had puff adders bounce off the toe of my boot several times and they will strike a stick in a heartbeat when teased. They are also out during colder weather far more then the cobra's and Mamba's. Of all the Mamba's I have seen in my life the most were in termite mounds. It has gotten to the point that I will always look into the holes when I walk by them just to see if there is one visible. Two years ago my PH Henk Viljoen shot two in a termite mound hole with a single 375HH bullet. They were curled up together in a ball in that hole.

Outside of the ones in the holes, I have seen equal amounts on the ground and in trees. They are quite frequently in the branches of trees sunning in the winter. I think it gives them some peace and quiet from getting trampled by hoofed game?

Far and away the most common snake you will see in winter is the Rock Python. They must have a lot of fat! I have seen them out in a big coil along the road during very cold mornings. Personally these are the most entertaining and fun snakes I have ever known. They can be huge and are not as fast so they can be approached and photographed by hunters.

They have no venom, but they have a very dangerous bite with the infectious qualities in their gums. They are also beautiful and with amazing power. Even a smaller 2 meter python will put a squeeze on your arms that will really get your attention. once you feel that, you can only imagine what a 200 pound 5 meter python will do to you or whatever it wraps around!

Funny how snakes in general seem very sensitive to exact eco systems/locations. I've got various friends who live within a couple of miles of me in a variety of directions and they all get puff adders, cobras and mambas on a weekly basis. In the last 10 years, I've had 2 or 3 mambas and one spitting cobra and that's it.

As for messing with them, I kill them if they get in the house or into camp but other than that, I have the agreement that I leave them alone and they leave me alone and in 30 years of hunting Africa, I've never been bitten.

i don't see the big deal with mambas. all the local hunters know what to do when you get bitten by a black mamba. simple, wright the word mamba on the ground and go an lie down in the shade. simple. that why when your hunting buddies find you, they at least know what happened. and of course the shade speaks for it self. i mean have you ever seen a corpse that spend some time in the son.

you aint the first to make that comment 'bout me and likely wont be the last.....every time my wife sees me dive into high grass she yells "DAMMIT! LEAVE THE SNAKE ALONE!" she doesnt even have to see the critter to know what im after

I'm not afraid of snakes, nor am I afraid of Lions, Buffalo, Hippo, elephant,the Taliban, Mexican Cartel, or Alquida, but I have a damn healthy respect for them, and don't play silly games when in their bubble...These things kill people that are stupid or careless.

very true.....round here, after over 2 decades of chasing snakes here i can tell at a brief glance what snake im going after....hell 9 times out of 10 i can correctly identify the damn things while doing 75mph down the interstate.....put me in Florida and i dont dive into the grass ofter a glimpse of 4 inches worth of the snakes body.....put me in Africa and i wanna see the entire damn snake before screwing with one, and even then maybe not cause some of their lil ones dont fit into the nice categories we have over here in the states and can screw up your weekend real quick....if it turns out to be a python ill likely loose interest in shooting anything till i catch it and check it out more closely

Very interesting and informative thread gentlemen. Thanks. All we have are prairie rattlers here in the way of venemous snakes. That is enough.

does anyone know why snake handling tongs are so ridiculously expensive?

Here, they start at the equivalent of about US$80 but when I look at 'em, I reckon you could make one for about $15.

niche market.....kinda why some of the carpeting tools i use are so expensive when they look easy to make....you aint gonna make money on them via volume....

almost have to laugh at this.....almost....if yah can get to the hospital or antivenin and someone that knows how to use it you can live through a mamba bit most of the time....however, given they have highly neurotoxic venom, if your feeling the effects of the venom and your more than 90 minutes from the antivenin yourself, ill defiantly go with the thought of just making itself comfortable cause your chances really arent very good....

I've never had to do it but have been (repeatedly) told that in the old days, they used to put the patient on the bonnet of the Landrover, press an HT lead near the wound and turn the engine over.... I'm also told there has been a lot of research on using cattle prods etc in a similar way.... I haven't ever seen any proof of that though.

The theory does make sense though as venom is made up of chains of protein and in theory at least, electrical current would break up those chains of protein.

if the choice was dieing and giving it that a shot, i'ld say wire me up.....i dont have much faith in the technique knowing what i know bout snake venom and i do know more than the average Joe, im more inclined to think the snake didnt inject a full load of venom and you would have survived regardless....but as i said if there is no other option, in the case of something as toxic as the black mamba, ill take the electric shock and hope for the best cause at that point a lil more pain is the least of my worries.....

You have to wonder what they were thinking when they tried it for the first time

given the likelihood of you dieing from a bite if your that far out in the bush someone prolly thought what the hell why not.....if you take a full bite from a mamba and you arent near a hospital the chances of you surviving are prolly pretty close to you winning the lottery....the issue is snakes can vary how much they give yah from none at all to completely emptying their venom glands into you which is enough to kill you many times over, its an active choice they make....you can get bit by a mamba, be envenomated but they didnt give yah a lethal dose, your still gonna be in bad shape for a bit....they can also give yah enough to where you would survive in a hospital without antivenin but not out in the bush cause they can put yah on a respirator and keep yah breathing till the venom gets broken down by your body.....there are a whole lot of "ifs" out there for me to believe in the shock therapy....but i get bit by a mamba 2 hours from the nearest hospital or antivenin, your going to be wiring my arse to that vehicle and shocking the hell out of me

I can understand the theory of how it works and it makes sense but I'd have thought time between bite and shock would be a large factor in effectiveness of the treatment.

Actually, I reckon the cytotoxic venoms would in some ways be worse than the neurotoxic.... at least with a neurotoxic bite, it's over one way or the other fairly quickly but with cytotoxic venom, it must seem to go on forever......

Jim,

The other vital fact you've missed about Mambas is that they scare Canadians even more so than Rhino's do!

Regards,

Peter

Now Mr. Atkinson, now what do you really think, would have happened that day if that PH with a bad eye didn't shoot and kill that snake? I am all eyes and ears to this replay sir.

The following videos have a rather high "pucker factor"!!

Video 1

Video 2

Mike

my issue is if it destroys the proteins of the venom why in the hell doesnt it do more damage to the proteins in the body around the bite site...

as far as neurotoxins versus the various others, yah need to keep in mind with rare exception most snakes carry a cocktail of most all the types....the neurotoxin of a mambas bite just kicks in alot faster than the various other toxins the mamba has in lesser amounts....the average, healthy adult can take a full bite from a US copperhead and never truly need antivenin they will give it to you to slow down tissue destruction but your not likely to die from a bite on the hand....maybe loose a few fingers but you wont die....

puff adders have some really nasty venom but it is designed almost totally for tissue destruction, its real good at basically dissolving muscle tissue almost like acid....like most snakes with similar venom, the venom rarely kills yah unless the fangs injected it directly into a major vein or artery...

the Gabon viper is sorta well known for this due to its huge fangs....infact individual snakes that have had their venom glands removed to make them "safe" have still killed ppl cause due to the force of the bite(4-6 foot snake, 20 plus pounds) coupled with the 2 inch fangs, ppl have had arteries in their arms severed and bled out....

what usually kills yah in the instance of the puff adder, aint the venom, its the infection that sets in as that dissolved flesh starts to rot....

boomslangs have nasty venom aswell....different from mambas or adders, their venom completly gets rid of you bloods clotting factor and starts screwing with the integrity of the vein and artery walls, you start bleeding from everywhere, your eyes, nose, mouth , belly button and elsewhere in a bad bite....

double post

I have only had one encounter with what I thought was a common snake of some sort at the time. I was riding in the back of a toyota truck with my PH. The land owner was driving the truck, chasing after a herd of white-blesbok.

This went on for 40 minutes or more, trying to get close enought to put a stalk on this particular herd. I got a little antsy as the sun was about 30 minutes from going down. I told the PH to stop the truck. He told the driver to hold up. I stated I could get the job done on the blesbok by just walking the 1/2 mile or so on foot. PH said not a good idea! I said: Well I am going to do so. I grabbed my rifle off the rack and proceeded to climb down out of the back of the truck.

The PH grabbed me by the arm and pointed to the long snake making it's way in the field. I do remember that we passed several big termite hills just prior to stopping. This snake was like 35 feet going away from the truck. There was not much grass on the ground either, just a reddish tint to the soil. The snake must have been every bit of 12 or 13 feet long, with a silvery color on the whole of it's body. I saw NO BLACK anywhere! I got a lesson taught to me that day.....this was an adult BLACK MABA I was told. It seems the only black on them is inside their mouth. The opposite of a Cotton Mouth but black as the ace of spades I was told. Later I got to view a picture of such a snake......blacker than coal.
I dare say I stayed in the truck.

My friend an Ph John sharp lost half of his finger to a Puff Adder and what Steve says is prety much word for word what Sharp related to me. He did add that both he and his trackers of many years Isaac and Kevin have been through a lot; lion, leopard, buffalo & elephant charges but NOTHING scares them more than a Black Mamba. Glas I've never seen a SINGLE snake in Africa! jorge

yep their name comes from the color of their mouth, their body is usually slate gray or silverish in the right light, especially after a shed....

Excellent Plan! I have seen what I believe was an adult black mamba near Lake Manyara. I couldn't be sure because I was running in reverse as fast as I could. The Toyota caught up to me in less than a mile.

Terry

Jorge, now don't you bother to go get your eyes checked and get a pair of perscription glasses OK. I don't want you to start seeing all those snakes that are around in various places. Trust me Jorge, they are there and that is a fact. Not to mention those friggin Scorpians too.

the electric shock works, well at least on animals. i first heard of this a couple of years ago from our local veterinarian. he once gave me an extensive lecture on just how one does this. i was amazed but as time went by i sort of forgot about it. i recently asked him about it again and he said that he treated a terrier that was bitten by a puff adder on the tongue. he said the dog was eating again in less than 24 hours. he once told me that if he was bitten by a snake he will take to the cattle prod with out a doubt.

I've got a big problem with guys killing snakes in the bush out of hand..... there's no need for it, it's illegal in most countries and it's the hunter who is the invader into the snake's environment.

As I see it, people who behave in that manner are just bloody ignorant of the real facts of the African bush.

like i said i dont understand how it can work, from what i know it doesnt seem to be possible and i have yet to find anything that tells me why it works, just ppl stating that it does.....but out in the bush with no modern medicine or the like nearby, hell ill shock myself if yah give me the cattle prod beats doing nothing, thats for damn sure.....

As I understand it..shock works on hemotoxin...no idea on cyto or neurotoxin.....
And I agree with Shakari..I don't kill snakes,just catch & photo..
Ingwe

.....but out in the bush with no modern medicine or the like nearby, hell ill shock myself if yah give me the cattle prod beats doing nothing, thats for damn sure.....[/quote]


i hear ya. a friend of mine once got bitten(on the tip of his index finger) by a mamba while stalking kudu. he shot the snake and then took one look at his finger and simply put his finger in front of the barrel and shot the tip of his finger to hell.he then fainted. i know this story isn't suppose to be funny but you should hear the local trackers tell this story.

i got a bit of a giggle, mainly cause i can see myself doing similar knowing what i know bout snake venom....dont know that i woulda used a gun but i might sacrifice the finger with a quick chop with a heavy knife sure....but placing it over a rifle muzzle? ill pass

Studies have proven conclusively that an electrical shock does not break down the venom. Too bad, because it beats anaphalaxis if you are allergic to anti venom.

I've seen a puff adder, and several Black Forest Cobras, but no mambas. I'm glad about that. I should note that the staff sees the snakes long before I.

There is a great program about a game ranger in Kruger Park who was struck by a black mamba, and was able to flag down a car and get medivaced to a hospital. The MD's at the hospital didn't believe he was bitten by a mamba, because he wasn't dead after an hour, so they refused to give him mamba anti-venom and put him on a ventilator. After 36 hours or so, his body metabolized the venom, and he began to recover. Eventually he recovered his speech and gave them hell for not believing him.

Rattler, a quick question.

Which snake, either nuro or hemitoxin has the fastest acting venom?

By that I mean, considering you are injected with the same amount of venom and receive no medical treatment, which snake's venom is likely to kill the quickest?

The reason I ask is that I have heard of 'one step' snakes and 'two step' snakes, meaning that you will die after taking one step if bitten by one, or you won't take but two steps if bitten by the other.

I don't believe any snake's venom acts this fast, but it got me to wondering which was quickest.

I'm not Rattler and I'm not an expert on snakes, but my guess would be one of the Sea Snakes...

the "one step" and "two step" thing is BS......15 minutes is realistically in normal conditions how quick the fastest acting venom will likely kill a healthy adult male....

Pete is right, the sea snakes have the fastest acting venom and if you think about it that makes sense....they got to paralyze the fish NOW! in a 3D environment like the water...

on land its the fierce snake(inland taipan) of the Australian Outback but it rarely kills anyone in nature cause it lives in one of the most inhospitable places on Earth.....the run of the mill Asian cobra and Russel's viper kill more ppl than any other...both have fairly toxic venom but nothing spectacular, we have a couple rattlesnakes that are worse....however they live in densely populated areas with poor medical care by western standards so by a quirk of geography and economics they whipe out more ppl each year just due to the fact they bite more ppl than any other species...

in Africa Egyptian cobras, saw-scaled vipers(lil bitty viper rarely more than 18 inches long) and the puff adder kill the most...

in the US the eastern and western diamondbacks kill the most....due to their large size and the fact they have large ranges....our lil prairie rattler has more toxic venom than the western diamond back but because its smaller and tends to inject less venom in a bite and the fact its range mainly includes pretty rural country with fewer ppl than the other two, it kills very few ppl...

I killed my share of cotton mouths near Pierre Part, Louisiana(Bayou Corne and Lake Verret) while in grad school at LSU. They would strike a hit from a .22 if it was too far back, swim toward a boat and look for a fight, and weren't afraid to drop down for a visit if you're alligator hunting in the dark. Snakes are great from a distance, but that's about it for me! These African snakes as y'all describe them, well, y'all are braver than me!

And here he is holding up the biggest one! But it was in 2005, when I hunted with you. Henk was hunting with Chris and Cyril.

oh yeah Cyril, how could I forget that guy. He was sooooo funny and made that trip such a joy!

Sorry we almost killed him with the pranks we pulled. Was that the same year we put the gemsbok horns in the bush near their water hole blind?

Any chance you could direct us to where we could find the studies and results?

There's been talk of such studies for many years but I've never even seen a single paper or scientific report stating any findings either way, and would be very interested to read any you could direct me to.

As I understand the theory, it should work and I remember reading claims from one or two PHs that it did work (seem to remember Wally Johnson of Mozambique fame claimed to have used the Landrover trick a time or two) but of course, those are just claims rather than scientific research with conclusive scientific results.

It'd be nice to see proper conclusions one way or the other for the obvious reason.

ADDED

Having just spent a bit of time researching this on Google, it seems there are no end of arguments and examples either way but very little if any proper scientific studies.

I did however notice that there seemed to be more claims of successful treatment with the HT lead of a truck than there with with using a stun gun...... might possibly be something to do with voltage/current in relation to effeciency of treatment...... but I'd still be very interested in the results of any proper studies that might have been conducted if anyone knows of any.

Here is one: pdf file

John

JPB,

An interesting read but really an example of my added comment. They used a stun gun and a simulation of a stun gun but didn't try it with a HT lead set up..... if you do a Google search, you'll find several examples where people claim to have used the HT lead set up successfully.

I've heard no end of stories over the years for both arguments and I don't know which is right or even if there's an inbetween where it might sometimes work, but not always..... and I've certainly never had to give it a try on anyone and hope I never will.

I would however, like to see a report of a long term study with really conclusive results either way.

Having said that, I guess it'd be a very difficult subject to research thoroughly!

Hi Shakiri

I assumed that few here have access to a research library, so I posted the only publicly-available pdf reprint I could find with a quick search.

Bon't bother with a normal Google search -- you will find mostly bullshit anecdotal reports and few, if any, proper studies. The www is full of crap that is not supported scientifically.

If you use a proper scholarly search engine like Web of Knowledge you will find many. If you use Google Scholar you will find at least some creditable articles. Unfortunately many of the articles you find will not be available to you (unless you are going through a university library with electronic subscriptions to these journals -- as I do as a university prof).

So, be prepared for some frustration unless you can access these articles through a research library! Here they are:

Title: ELECTRIC SHOCKS ARE INEFFECTIVE IN TREATMENT OF LETHAL EFFECTS OF RATTLESNAKE ENVENOMATION IN MICE
Author(s): JOHNSON EK, KARDONG KV, MACKESSY SP
Source: TOXICON Volume: 25 Issue: 12 Pages: 1347-1349 Published: 1987

Title: STUN-GUNS AND SNAKEBITES
Author(s): MCPARTLAND JM, FOSTER R
Source: LANCET Volume: 2 Issue: 8620 Pages: 1141-1141 Published: NOV 12 1988

Welch EB, Gales BJ Use of stun guns for venomous bites and stings: a review WILDERNESS & ENVIRONMENTAL MEDICINE 12 2 111-117 SUM 2001

Holstege CP, Miller MB, Wermuth M, et al. Crotalid snake envenomation CRITICAL CARE CLINICS 13 4 889-& OCT 1997

Title: ELECTROTHERAPY FOR SNAKEBITE
Author(s): BLAYLOCK RS
Source: SOUTH AFRICAN MEDICAL JOURNAL Volume: 84 Issue: 12 Pages: 875-875 Published: DEC 1994

Title: ELECTRIC-SHOCK TREATMENT FOR SNAKE BITE
Author(s): SNYDER CC, MURDOCK RT, WHITE GL, et al.
Source: LANCET Volume: 1 Issue: 8645 Pages: 1022-1022 Published: MAY 6 1989

Title: ELECTRIC SHOCKS ARE INEFFECTIVE IN TREATMENT OF LETHAL EFFECTS OF RATTLESNAKE ENVENOMATION IN MICE
Author(s): JOHNSON EK, KARDONG KV, MACKESSY SP
Source: TOXICON Volume: 25 Issue: 12 Pages: 1347-1349 Published: 1987


Here is the best one: a review, and I have included the Abstract:

Title: Use of stun guns for venomous bites and stings: a review
Author(s): Welch EB, Gales BJSource: WILDERNESS & ENVIRONMENTAL MEDICINE Volume: 12 Issue: 2 Pages: 111-117 Published: SUM 2001
Abstract: During the past 2 decades, articles suggesting that stun guns be utilized to treat venomous bites and stings have appeared in both the lay and medical press. Although never widely considered to be standard therapy for venomous bites and stings, stun guns are still considered to be a treatment option by some medical practitioners and outdoor enthusiasts. A Medline search was performed using these terms: venomous bites, venomous stings, snake bites, spider bites, electrical, stun gun, high voltage electricity, low amperage electricity, direct current, and shock therapy. Articles selected included laboratory-based isolated venom studies, animal studies, and case reports involving humans in which a stun gun or some other source of high voltage, low amperage direct current electric shocks were used to treat actual or simulated venomous bites or stings. We concluded that the use of stun guns or other sources of high voltage, low amperage direct current electric shocks to treat venomous bites and stings is not supported by the literature.

John

Hatari...thanks for this tidbit, and thanks to jpb for reference as well...I kinda wondered why we haven't heard anything on this topic for the last ten years...

Also, its always a good thing to put anectdotal evidence and heresay to rest...

Learn something new every day.....

Ingwe

I understand that the currently-accepted state of the art treatment for snakebite (pioneered by researchers in Minnesota!) is to shave your junk and eat a can of frozen orange juice.

John

How do your keep the Orange juice frozen in your first aid/snakebite kit???



Ingwe

Must confess I'd never heard of web of knowledge until now, but it certainly looks like it'll be useful in the future! - Thanks for the tip..

I'll try to track some of those papers down now!

FWIW I like the Google Scholar option too...when I'm trying to run down something obscure...
Lots of articles on there you have to pay for...lots you don't...
Ingwe

i will tell the veterinarian to stop using electric shock on bitten animals, because the web says it doesn't work.

If the vet says it works then maybe there's a difference between simulation in a laboratory and the real thing in an animal or a human....... I've got a couple of buddies who a vets and the ask them if they have had any experience with it.

I've gotta say, I'd be more inclined to believe (first hand) prectical experience rather than laboratory tests.

Dan,

do you know if he uses an ordinary stun gun or something special?

i still say: mamba bite, more than 2 hours from treatment, hand my arse the jumper cables

And/or the Orange Juice!

Ingwe

so for now, 'current' thinking is in the event of a snake bite, to pass the stun gun and/or HT leads and hope to get 'ohm' safely.

Shakari. he uses an ordinary cattle prod. he first explained the whole procedure to me, about 3 or 4 years ago. his practice is about 2 kilometers from my home and he is a customer of mine.

in short he said the following. he first puts the dog to sleep and then he would prod the dog on the bite mark a few times and then he would prod between the mark and halfway towards the heart of the dog and if possible on the aorta. he would repeat this a couple of times and then let the dog sleep it of.

i am sure there is more to it than what i just said but that is in short how i remember it. i will add this: i recently asked him if he still uses this method and it was then when he told me that if he was out on his farm and something like cobra(is that the english for a yellow snake?) bit him he will do some self prodding. i took that remark as a sign of his believe in the electrical method.

i know him well and i am sure that if someone needs to learn more i can ask him again about the detail.he wont mind.

he likes to discuss these kinds of things he used to be a toxicology researcher at the university of Pretoria specifically at Onderstepoort.

Sigh. You have read those papers already, I guess? It is not that simple. I made one comment on one review paper -- I should have known not to do so or it would be taken out of context by somebody who will not bother to do much work for themselves. You are as bad as some of my students!

"the web" says damn near anything you want it to say. This is why one should rely on scientific articles, not the crap dredged up in simple Google search.

Similarly, you can find all sorts of quack cures for cancer on the web, but if you know what you are doing you can also find proper scientific reports of treatments that actually work too.

Added note: there is, in fact, some evidence for the use of dc current for some types of venom -- which is why I posted more than one reference (my comment was regarding only the last paper). It ain't that simple...

John

John my apologies, i red the topics and it seemed to suggest no support for the electrical practice.

Hi Lt_Dan

Interesting that he did toxicology research! Unusual for a vet.

Snakes are not my field, but I wonder if some of the mixed conclusions among various reports may be for bites with cytotoxic vs hemotoxic venom... or if perhaps whether electicity works is right down at the level of the specific species' venom.

John

WOW, I learned alot. Thanks everybody!

jpb, Ondertepoort is the local(sa) training ground for vets. it is also a world famous and it is often in the local news with regards to some or the other ground braking stuff. remember a couple of years ago the foot and mouth disease in the uk? the uk flew a lot of local vets and local produced medicines to the uk in the end to help stop the epidemic.

now if i am not mistaken his field of expertise was towards toxin in animals. he was also used by the university to recommend treatments. meaning he used to be contacted by vets from over the country for his opinion. i have been in his presence, recently when he was again phoned by another vet for advice.

this was all before he started his private practice. he is also a cattle farmer and i do his vermin hunting.

a while back when i still played rugby for our local town he used to be our unofficial team doctor. some of his treatments was "interesting" to say the least, but it sure worked.

Sounds like it'll work at least some of the time and is probably well worth a try if there's no other option available.

Dan,

Not sure what you mean by yellow snake.... do you mean m'fezi? - ''Fraid I don't know the Afrikaans name for them but they tend to come in a variety of colours and I have seen them with some yellow on then but not a hell of a lot.

BTW, where in SA are you? - I'm in White River just down the road from the KNP.

I have heard, seen in film, but never seen in person a type of Yellow Cobra in southern Africa...rumored to also hunt Weaver birds nests and the like...
Anything like that???


Ingwe

[/quote]
Hi Lt Dan

There is sure no need to apologize! Now that I read it, my reply seems much harsher than I indended. I was rushing.

As I noted above, I also find it interesting that your vet has a toxicology background. He may well know of some good scientific studies supporting the use of electricity at least on some kinds of venom. This is an area a long way from my area of expertise (I was just trying to help with access to proper studies with my post, not to suggest that I knew anything about snake venom!).

Cheers from Sweden,

John

oh yes the diffrent venom.John, if i see him again i will ask. i suspect he will say that the treatment stays the same. for the simple practical reason that more often than not the owner of the dog wasn't with the dog when it got bitten. so no idea what it was. come to think of it maybe this is one of the reasons he prefers a non discriminating treatment such as the electric method. treat s-bites with the wrong anti-venom and death is a sure thing. maybe this side steps that problem?

this is not limited to dogs/pets, i know he has treated cattle as well.

I have done a lot of hog hunting in Florida & its common for a dog to be treated with a special electroshock device. I have read several articles by US doctors that claim it doesn't work on humans. I also remember reading an article where a doctor or vet, not sure which, treated a lot of Indians in South American jungles with electroshock with almost 100% success. I was almost bitten by a 6 1/2' Diamondback Rattler in Florida. I shot the snake after it struck at me & have it mounted in my trophy room. With only 3 trips to SA I have never seen a snake, & would prefer to keep it that way. I have always been told to stay away from termite mounds. One area I hunted was full of termite mounds & the PH/owner of the concession stated many had contained Mamba's. He spent several years pouring gas on them & burning any snakes. He is deadly afraid of snakes so the story may be true.

shakari, tell you what i am going to drive to his practise quickly. i know he has a notice board with pictures of snakes. the footnotes are bilingual. i'll give feedback. i am from the n-west province.

john you have some good questions if i see him again i will ask

Ah, of course the snake will often not be identified. I didn't think of that.

Living close to the Arctic Circle, I have not had to worry much about poisonous reptiles! We have one poisonous snake here in Sweden, but its venom is not very potent -- barring an allergy, you are safe if you are bigger than a meadow vole!

John

been a great discussion....as i said to start with from my slightly above average understanding of how venom works(granted im far from an expert) i can not understand how the electrical shock works and i have never run across a single thing to truly explain to me why it may work.....lots on anecdotal evidence suggesting it might but nothing to tell me why.....because of this i aint convinced it works......HOWEVER if other treatment isnt available in the long run(or short run depending on snake species ) i dont see how your going to do any more damage by getting shocked and out in the bush i sure in the hell aint going to pass up such a treatment if its handy, as i said, i believe it beats the hell out of doing nothing at all...

rattler, you are dead right.

alright i am back from the vets practice. a yellow snake is Afrikaans for Cape Cobra. exactly the venom i don't care for. in my neck of the woods the cobra is second most common snake next to your friendly neighbourhood puff-adder.

Ok...thanks for the trouble and the info..!

Ingwe

Based on my foggy recollections of biochem, it seems likely that an electical current strong enough to denature the proteins in the venom would do the same to the proteins in your cells. However, some unstable proteins are quite easily denatured, so anything is possible!

Overall, I have to agree with rattler -- if there is no harm, pass me the cattle prod if I get bit!

John

Just conjecture on my part, but as has been implied, the electrical thing might have some validity with hemotoxins...if thats the case, besides breaking down certain protiens, could it also be breaking down some of the enzymes involved....

Or am I over thinking this, before having had any coffee this morning?

Ingwe

[quote=jpb]Based on my foggy recollections of biochem, it seems likely that an electical current strong enough to denature the proteins in the venom would do the same to the proteins in your cells. However, some unstable proteins are quite easily denatured, so anything is possible!

duh... you lost me, but it sounds good. oops now everybody knows my I.Q. or the lack thereof.lol.

your not necessarily over thinking it other than the fact the enzymes your referring to in hemotoxic snake venom are infact, just another protein aswell

Raking back through my physics lessons in about 19voetsak, I seem to remember that a flow of electrons would break up chains of protein..... but that's about all I remember about it and even that memory could be inaccurate. I guess it must be something like that though.

Dan,

I was up in your neck of the woods a little while ago on my way to wilton Valley. It was dry as hell.... hope you've had some rain since then!

True Dat!

I think I'll just go ahead and get some coffee and shut up.....

Ingwe

Shakari,

i believe you are absolutely correct, my question is, if the electrical charge breaks up the venom proteins, keeping mind a shot of venom from a good sized snake is about a half to full tablespoon or so in the case of a mamba, and that's alot of protein being broken down by the shock, so why arent the proteins in the surrounding, muscle, nervous and connective tissue also similarly destroyed?

Botswana, April 1990.
Our long dreamed of first safari. My Dad and I hunting 2 x 1, with my wife along as observer.
The wife has a morbid fear of snakes, so the booking agent assured her it would be winter and we wouldn't see a single snake.
On arrival in Kasane, the head of safari co assures her it's winter and we wouldn't see a single snake.
Next day meet the PH and he assures her it's winter and we won't see a single snake.

Late afternoon about the 5th day, and we're in our usual riding positions: Ronnie driving with Dad next to him in the cab, me in the middle of the bench seat behind the cab with trackers Malebung and Junior on either side, and the wife behind us on the spare tire. Did I mention she's a keeper?
We;re on a well worn piece of road doing about 30 when I catch a glimpse of what looks like the slate grey head of a snake whiz past less than a foot from the side of the truck at OUR EYE LEVEL!
Before I can say, "Was that a snake?" There's an explosion of Tswana on both sides of me. Ronnie jams on the brakes, a quick and highly agitated discussion ensues, the wife asks me what's going on, and we back up to get a good look. We catch a glimpse of the tail disappearing into the grass as Ronnie says, "Mamba, bloody big one too.".

Luckily, she never saw it, and 3 years went by before I told her that she had passed within a foot of the head of a large black mamba.

Not sure she believes me to this day.

Don't worry, it's winter and you won't see a single snake.
Pete

You are right about the controversy and anecdotal stories. I did see a good expos� on the subject a few years back on Discovery or a similar channel. The MD's and researchers conclude the the bites that were "successfully" treated with shock were likely the result of "dry" bites - no significant envenomation.

Considering that our own flesh-skin, musculature, etc- is largely protein, for the electroshock therapy to work as advertised in breaking the venom protein chain, it would turn our bodies to jelly at the same time. Instead, it just will burn the crap out of you.

However, if a mamba, cobra, gaboon viper, or any such thing tags me in the bush, feel free to fry me, get the witch doctor, and the vodka and OJ if the medivac isn't handy.

OK...I can't shut up just yet

I was wondering the same thing...

Perhaps because the electrical current isnt breaking down cell walls like hemotoxin does, the cells are capable of restoring the protiens in them that are destroyed by the electricity. And not undergoing the necrosis that hemotoxin induces....??

As you said, Ive looked at this a number of times, and no one has ever tried to explain how it really works...


Ingwe

You will find out who your true friends are if you need help shaving your junk...

John

Now THAT makes perfect sense..

I think I'll leave it at that!!

Give it a BIG +1 !!!

Ingwe

Like the old American joke circulating when cut and suction was the "preferred" snake bite treatment....

What did the Dr. say?


" He said you are gonna die...."



Ingwe

if someone can explain to me it works like that and provide me peer reviewed documentation saying such i'll start buying it, till then im skeptical as hell but aint above giving it a try if my life is on the line

Rattler,

It was all a long time ago but if I remember correctly, the current breaks the chains of protein up into much smaller pieces and therefore stops the effect of the venom rather than destroys it.......... I could well be wrong on that but that's what I seem to remember and if it's right, it would probably explain why it doesn't affect the flesh.

Could also be the fact that the venom is a liquid (albeit a thick one) and consequently is affected differently..... after all, body tissue isn't usually greatly affected by electric shock.

i agree those are quite possible....just would think such a thing would be easy to test cause you can just pass the current through a test tube of venom itself as see if it degrades it via standard LD50 tests with mice using un-shocked venom from the same snake as a baseline.....would think atleast one person has tried it and had there been positive results published the findings....

FWIW, there was an in depth article in Outdoor Life a number of years ago about this. It has been ten or twelve years ago, and I am doing this from memory, so bear with me.

IIRC, the technique was developed by some missionaries in the Amazon. They would use the spark plug lead from the old single cylinder outboard motors and vehicles that were equipped with points, coils and condensers. These engines developed about 40,000 volts, and this seemed to disrupt the venom in some way. The article advised against using the newer capacator discharge equipped engines that often put out 100,000 volts, as this level of voltage could cause additional trauma, and they said cardiac arrest was a possibility.

There was quite a lengthy medical discussion as to the whys and wherefores as to the effectiveness of using shock for snakebite for a couple of consecutive issues in Outdoor Life. A couple of veternarians weighed in and said that they had used it with success on dogs. The human medical community was reluctant to endorse it because it was at variance with accepted medical practice as regards to treatment for snakebite.

Be that as it may, some company began to manufacture a mini-taser like device to apply shock to snakebite, and it got some traction in the marketplace, although I haven't heard about the device in a number of years.

A friend of mine in Arkansas had a good hound that was bitten on the jaw by a water moccasin during this time frame. Being of a rural mind set, he decided to hook the dog up to the spark plug wire of his lawn mower in lieu of taking the dog to the vet. The dog was fully recovered in three days.

Based on the performance of my friend's dog in the matter, I will say that if I am out and get nailed by a serious snake, I definitely want to raise the hood on the vehicle and take a jolt of electricity on the bite, even if it is a CDI ignition--provided there is no anti-venin available. At that point you have nothing to lose.

As an active ER MD in rural Texas I care for multiple snakebites yearly. The current treatment guidelines recommend no cutting, no sucking, no electroshock, and no tight torniquets. You need to remain as calm as possible and proceed to the nearest ED for assessment. Not all bites envenomate and the degree of envenomation varies from bite to bite. The ER doc will assess your bite and symptoms then administer Crofab if indicated. The most important information is positive identification of the snake if feasible.

doclee,

I appreciate Texas is a huge state but would guess you're never a hell of a distance from a good hospital, esp with the fact that you can pick up a phone and whistle up a chopper in short order, or get onto a good tar road within a few miles.

Probably wouldn't work work quite so well in some parts of Africa where the nearest clinic, let alone a hospital or doctor might easily be a 12 hour drive away.

For example, the Bugando Hospital in Mwanza Tanzania is the only hospital for about 400 miles in any direction and even that often has no electricity, drugs and almost certainly no antivenom.

Pretty much all the doctors are from overseas and usually only there for a few weeks at a time.

i fully agree with your assessment......and if i get bit by a rattler here that is exactly my plan....most of this discussion however has been centered around what in the hell are yah going to do out in the bush when bitten by a very deadly species and your much farther away from a hospital and capable doctor than its gonna take the venom to kill yah such as with a mamba where the venom kills within an hour 9 times out of 10.....in such a case i say shock the hell out of me....if it dont work aint like im likely to live anyway....

Shakari you are correct. African logistics are definately more difficult.In some Texas areas access can be 3-4 hours by vehicle especially down in the big bend. I understand well the logistics of Africa having hunted in Zambia and Tanzania and visited some clinics. Antivenom would likely not be available in the majority of clinics/hospitals except at the majors.This does not change the current guidelines/ recommendations for treatment and all the more reason to have medivac insurance.
My daddy's prevention guidelines are probably more germane..."Watch for snakes, watch where you put your feet,don't put your hands into holes, if an area looks snakey it probably is"

I was impressed at how fast and aggressive the mamba are... I recieved a large knot on my forehead when the cruiser came to an abrupt halt one day in the Selous. The driver had braked suddenly to avoid running over a large mamba. In Texas we accelerate for snakes on the road. Not a good idea with mambas!

I think a lot of people are far too paranoid about snakes. I've kicked around Africa for 30 years, slept in the bush numerous nights, including many without tent, sleeping bag or anything else except a small fire and a rifle. I've had numerous close encounters with various snakes over that period.

I've had face to face encounters at a yard or two with mambas and other snakes, I've stepped on several puff adders, and even found myself (accidentally) pissing on a spitting cobra.

When I've absolutely had to, I've killed several over that time when they've come into camp and can't be moved out or when they've come into my house....... but not once in all that those years have I ever felt I came close to getting bitten and what's more, I've never had any member of staff get bitten.

I have to wonder why on earth do so many people feel the need to kill a snake that's just going about it's business of being a snake, when they see one in the bush?

Hope I don't offend anyone here, but as I see it, that kind of behaviour simply shows a deep lack of understanding of the eco system they're in.

About the only exception I'll make of that statement is if you find yourself in a blind with a snake and the snake is blocking the exit OR if you're a Masai because those buggers have had it bred into them for generations to kill any snake or Lion they ever come across.

i would never do the cut and suck method.....do know enough bout venom to know thats pretty well useless....tourniquets do work so long as you dont mind loosing everything below the tourniquet and apply it ASAP after the bite and dont loosen it up.....the shock method, while unpleasant in general isnt dangerous and in the middle of nowhere im willing to give it a try.....close to a hospital i would rather have the antivenin....

Saw the cut and suck method go REALLY sour...the only time I saw it used....

Ingwe

I must be Masai.

I've read a couple posts about the danger of running over mambas in this thread. Are they capable of striking people riding in the open cab of a jeep if they rear up when a vehicle passes?

I don't know anything about mambas, but in the video posted back sevral pages where the mamba got into the blind I was amazed how easily they can climb!

mambas are long snakes, up to around 14 foot, and being a tree snake aswell they are more than capable of raising the front half of their body off the ground(a king cobra amd most ground dwelling snakes can only do maybe a third, usually less other than with cobras).....easy enough for a large mamba to rear up enough and nail someone in an open topped/sided vehicle....

Thanks rattler.

And here I thought riding in a vehicle would be a place safe from snakes...

just ride b!tch, that way its the guys on either side of you that get bit

I have a solution to african emergency physician access...I will offer personal physician services for african trips and I will bring the emergency kit. The cost is 1X1 hunt all inclusive for me!!!

Or, as we call it over here.." where the "real" cowboy" rides
Ingwe

Let me get back to you on that!
Ingwe

Yep

depending on how many gates we have to mess with ive got no issue riding b!tch.....only problem is my long damn legs make it so im usually driving or opening the gates

Same here!

Ingwe

The question that springs to my mind is: WHY THE HE!! AM I READING THIS POST??!!!. Poisonious snakes make my skin crawl - I even get freaked out by our mini dachshund sometimes.

We had an old boy who lived on the edge of a small town just down the road. He was an "expert" herpetologist and an arachnoid affectionado. He lived in a trailer and kept hundreds of different venomous snakes and just about every kind of spider imaginable. He got bit by both on a regular basis - whereupon - he promptly called 911 and the EMT's had to rescue the kook. After the first few times they wouldn't pick him up at his home anymore. They made him walk up to the C-store on the highway and picked him up there. A friend of mine in the pharmacist at the local hospital. According to him, our little, local hospital had one of the largest and broadest pharmacopeias of antivenom in the country because of this guy.

The guy disappeared for a few days and one of his drinking buddies got brave enough to go look in the trailer. Sure enough the deadly pet lover was dead on the floor. Seems some venoms have a cumulative effect. They think that one of his cobras was the culprit.

The volunteer fire department used the trailer for a "training exercise" a short time later and burned it to the ground.

I am out of here!!

Black mambas have been recorded to well over 4 metres (I've often seen 4 metre ones) and they can raise the front two thirds or so of their body off the ground.

I'm told the green grows to about 3 1/2 metres or maybe a tad more.... but I've never seen one over about 2 1/2 metres.

and they can move like greased lightning.

unfortunatly its morons like that why im not allowed to legally keep venomous snakes anymore.....the majority of keepers are smart and rarely if ever get bit.....few [bleep] morons screw it up for every one else.....course im also the guy that thinks its idiotic when someone around here catches a bullsnake and lets it wrap around their neck.....morons have no clue just how strong that snake is.....had a 6 footer tie me up like a pair of handcuffs once and i had to wait him out to do anything....he may not have been venomous but the SOB was stronger than me....wrapped around a guys neck and startled any of them over 4 foot could cause you to loose consciousness and in theory kill yah......i do not let any constrictor over four foot get anywhere near to around my neck......no big deal though for them to squeeze the hell out of your arms

ive never seen an official record of one over 14 foot, but dont doubt its possible.....however one problem is unless yah got a snake in your hands to measure....its awful hard to judge length of a live snake on the ground, im very familiar with snakes and have a hell of a time at it.....

4.3 metres = 14 foot...... so then I checked wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_mamba

sorry, backs hurting today and im on pain meds......quick math in my head gave me the wrong answer.....glad i got my writing done yesterday or the proofreader would be thinking im drinking on the job.....not that i care, she dont like me anyways....damn mother in law

Consider that the shock of a cattle prod might cause your muscles to spasm and push blood and venom farther into your vascular system...

The shock might also bring about a rise in your pulse rate and blood pressure as well....

ever been bit by a snake? even a nonvenomous one?........snakes dont bug me and ive been bitten dozens of times.....still, every time i get hit my pulse and im sure my BP sky rocket.....course bout every time i get hit now i get flash backs to the 15 minute battle to try and remove a 6 foot carpet python from my arm without hurting it to bad....however i musta lost a half pint of blood.....long teeth on those bastards

in all reality, im not worried to much bout the side effects you refer to, to much, venom travels as fast as its gonna travel unless you put a hell of a tourniquet on in which case your going to loose anything below that tourniquet anyways....your heart is gonna be racing after a bite regardless....a real experianced person could prolly calm themselves down....i prolly could after some work but at that point its not going to matter much anyway....

I once spent 7 days on the ground in what was then Zaire... We moved only at night, and as quietly as possible then... we saw no snakes and very little wildlife of any kind...

We were briefed by some brits, at an airbase in scotland, one of whom had lost most of a leg due to a bite from a gaboon viper...

One evening while enjoying a sundowner by the campfire after a long day hunting cats in Kansoso Busanga GMA Zambia my PH and I heard a huge clatter followed by several loud african screams coming from the camp kitchen. We ran with our rifles and flashlights. I was thinking hyena or other raider at this point but in africa who knows? Screams, shouts, and ruckus continued and then suddenly 10 staff emerged from the dark holding a large recently expired snake smiling broadly. It was a boa. The PH was very mad at them for killing a good snake. They went from elated to deflated in one second. A funny and memorable night.

I truely wish I had been there to watch Cyril doing his Usain Bolt impression when they stumbled onto those mambas!

Given the genral lack of sun here in the UK, us Brit are not known for our tans, but Chris and Cyril being Canadians turned up in RSA even whiter if thats possible. Now to see Cyral back at the Lodge an even paler shade of white from his snake encounter was quite something!

I don't recall the gemsbok horns, but I do recall the *long* drive from the airport to the Lodge, and just as we were nearing the end of it Cyril being told that due to a last minute change of plans, we were going to hunt another location which was a further 6 hours drive!

Talk about deflated!

Mind you, I think him and Chris had been playing "planes, trains and automobiles" for the previous 48 hours as they made their way from the Canadian outback to RSA!

While in Botswana this past August/September I encountered one. The PH warned me to keep the windows, etc., closed because the mambas were out due to unseasonably warm weather.

This first day in the field we pulled under one of the few relatively tall trees to park the bakkie in the shade during lunch. After gourging ourselfs, we slept on the benches on the bakkie.

After an hour of snoozing I got up to take a leak behind a nearby bush. Suddenly there was a loud cry, followed by raucus laughter from the trackers. Seemed that a mamba had been on a branch not more than three feet above our heads as we slept. The PH freaked, grabbed his rifle, and shot the sucker in half.

In the ensuing days the tracker jumped to the side of brush piles a couple times, as he could see mamba tracks entering, but not exiting, the nearby pile.

Only about 3' long, but enough to make a guy pretty sick, if not dead. These guys face leopards, rhinos, etc., but nothing scares them like a mamba.

Check this out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Am3ZY6_F91Q

You guys are giving me the heebie jeebies. I didn't even want to READ this thread... I HATE snakes.

That dude is insane.

Although that's a somewhat radical example, it''s a good example of why so many people get bitten by snakes....... Generally speaking, if you leave them alone and don't hassle them, even in a face to face confrontation, if you freeze and don't threaten them, they'll leave you alone.

9 times out of 10, it's the stupid plonkers who chase them or try to kill them for no reason other than they're a snake or because they want to impress someone with how tough and gung ho they are, that get bitten.

A snake tale from another country. For many years we had a nanny from Peru whose family were political refuges. Her father was in charge of the military until another regime came into power. Her brother was a scientist in the Amazon studying plants that had medicinal properties under a Smithsonian grant. There is some sort of giant snake in a part of the Amazon that natives contend grow up to 30' & can bite like a dog. Reportedly, the snake fed on small animals including wild pigs. This scientist visited Wash.,D.C. every year or so to report on his research to the Smithsonian. I had the opportunity to meet him numerous times & discuss flora & fauna in the Amazon. This snake,(can't pronounce name) was very rare & extremely nocturnal & was rarely seen except during the mating season. At this time the giant snake would stalk & attack anything at night. The Smithsonian desperately wanted a sample so they sent someone to assist this scientist in a live capture. With the assistance of the natives they did indeed capture one only to have the snake kill itself. This was a small snake only about 18'. A couple of years later another team was sent in to capture a live specimen. This time a tranquilizer drug was to be used to prevent the snake from killing itself. Another specimen was captured this one about 19 1/2' & was tranquilized. Obviously, this was a very remote area accessible only by foot or canoe. Some where along the return the snake revived enough to kill itself. I was told the snake was non-venomous but the bites were vicious & resulted in an infection usually killing the victim. The natives in the area knew when the snakes were breading & avoided the jungle at night so attacks were very rare.

I'm fairly well versed in electronics/auto electronics and am always happy to admit my own ignorance. But I can't for the life of me figure out what an "HT lead" is. Can someone please tell me what that is? Several of you have used the term in this thread. Maybe this will be one of those forehead-slappers; but, I'm at a loss. Thanks in advance.

High Tension lead (i.e. downstream of the coil in an "old-fashioned" vehicle, so a spark plug wire, or the main lead to the distributor (again, in an "old-fashioned" vehicle).

John

High Tention Lead...Goes from the coil to the centre of the distributor cap...

Slapping forehead. Thanks guys. Now I can get back to work.

Damn Johnny Foreigners don't even speak the Queen's English.

hey, 'least we aint as bad as the Aussies......half the time i swear they aint speaking English, let alone the Queen's English

No argument there buddy!...... although at least they can spell.

well hell, i never claimed i could spell

Can any African Medics or any MDs chime in here...in the US with on or two exceptions, our venomous snakes are hemotoxic, and our protocals are a loose dressing and transport...then antivenom as needed. An Aussie medic I'm friends with says they use wide occlusive bands on bites there due to the probability of a neuotoxic venom....what are the first aid protocals in on the Dark Continent...and lets be adults and skip the "John..he said you were gonna die" jokes please.

I blame it all on your teachers. for example, they forgot to tell their students about the the letter U or where it should go in words such as colour and humour etc.

I'm not a doctor but in Africa, we have three treatments.

tightish bandage from the site of the wound to the trunk and back to the extremity of the limb and try to get the patient to hospital.

OR

Electric shock.

OR

Sit the patient up, put his head between his legs and tell him to kiss his arse, or if he's American, his ass, goodbye.

First ID your snake....

Right there is the crux of the issue as Africa has such a wide diversity of venomous snakes.

Even the apparently simple idea of washing the wound with soap and water is some what controversial, as one school of thought thinks it removes excess venom to prevent it possibly entering the body via the wounds, where as others say leave the venom as Doctors at the hospital can swab it and use it to determine the species and therefore the treatment...

I forgot to mention snake ID and should haver mentioned it but as for washing the wound with soap and water...... not very likely to have the facilities in the bush but I guess an antisceptic wipe wouldn't do any harm.... probably wouldn't do much good either... but worth a try if you have time.

nah, i think our way is correct

however can you tell me how in the hell the Brits and Canucks get "Leftenant" out of Lieutenant and the Canucks get "aboot" out of about....

best one though is the wife and i went to a wild game dinner up in Regina, Saskatchewan Canada and one of our buddies up there is a Scotsman born and bred who moved to Canada as an adult.....he kept telling my wife they some times have "bar" at these dinners.....my wife, a hunter herself, could not figure out what in the hell he was talking about....took me 15 minute to decipher he was saying "bear"

And New Zealand. None there either.

Got a few in Oz though. The top 10 in the world are all from there. Very primative though, no hypodermic fangs. They are concave and shorter than modern period snakes.

IIRC, the black mamba, along with others such as the many-banded krait, were often referred to as two-step snakes during the Vietnam war. While the two steps may have been a myth to keep the GI's alert, I don't think it was far off. According to a Marine buddy of mine, the methods of dispatching varied when you crawled upon one, but did not always make use of a firearm as it could compromise your location.

actually they be hypodermic, they just dont fold......your lil death adder over there has some monstrous fangs given they wont fold like a rattlers or other viper....a half meter death adder has the same size fangs as a 3 meter mamba....

as for all of the top 10, depends how yah define the top 10 which is a whole argument unto itself per drop including sea snakes that happen to be in your waters as well as most of Southeast Asia yeah yah got all of them.....just land living snakes and i think your down to 7 of 10.....per number of deaths i dont think yah have any

Snake toxitity is graded on a scale whereby the central point is the Indian Cobra at "1". All snakes are graded as less toxic, or more toxic.

The most toxic US snake according to the head toxicologist at Taronga Park Zoo, who graciously provided lectures on the subject to SCI, is the diamond back rattlesnake which has a rating of .9. He is also more deadly because he has longer fangs and is able to pump in volumes of venom, intensifying the danger.

The worst of the Aussie mongrels is the Inland Taipan, also called the Fierce Snake. It has a rating of 49. Almost 50 times more toxic that the Indian Cobra.

Nasty stuff. Because of Australia's isolation, the snakes are very primative and have not evolved as other world snakes, especially in the fangs which are much shorter than many new world snakes and are not hypodermic.

So said the number 1 expert in the country. We did not break the conversation down into individual snakes other than the species we were most likely to encounter which was the browns and blacks, of which a King Brown, also known as a Mulga snake, is actually a Black snake so Anti venom for a brown snake, will not work.

The other surprise during the lectures was that Anti Nenom does not cure you of snake bite, it only deactivates it. Another snake bite can reactivate the original venom.

Becuase of the severity of the venom, the short fangs often only pierce your jeans and venom can sometimes be seen running down your pants leg. This also means that any scratch is still a snake bite. Any skin broken is also classified as a bite as it doesn't take much of a drop to do the job.

Although Mamba's were discussed by comparrison, my concentration was obviously towards local fauna so I cannot add more to it.

drop for drop of venom you guys have some truly nasty customers down there.....your inland taipan that you mention is the most toxic land dwelling snake by quite aways.....but its also out of however you want to rank the top 10 snakes prolly the least likely for you to get bit by cause they live in some real remote country....far more likely to get bit by the king brown cause it lives around some of your cities...

i dont view your snakes as primitive, atleast not any more primitive than a cobra or a mamba.....physiologically are they more primitive than our rattlesnakes? yeah but their venom is as highly evolved as any other venomous snake species....our rattlesnakes are considered the most highly evolved snakes but if yah ask any keeper they are dumb as a rock compared to king cobras which technically are a more primitive snake....

drop for drop our diamondback rattlers dont have that toxic of venom compared to some of our smaller species....the lil 4 foot prairie ratters we have around here in the frozen north are more toxic, southern pacific and mohave greens are more toxic yet.....but like your king browns our diamondbacks live in areas with more ppl and are a big enough snake though they dont rank high drop for drop, they are packing a whole lot of drops in that big head of a 6 foot plus snake.....

Correct.

http://australianmuseum.net.au/Fangs-of-deadly-venomous-snakes

The snake that is most likely to kill is generally regarded as the Coastal Taipan. I don't think anyone has survived a bite without antivenene. But those who have kept both the Coastal Taipan and Black Mamba say the Mamba is the more dangerous to keep due to being faster and larger, in other words, greater chance of being bitten.

Most of the research I have done would indicate the black mamba bite would be comparable to the Australian mainland Tiger snake, maybe up to a 75% chance the bite will be fatal without anti venene. The Death Adders are at 50%. But the Mamba would be far more dangerous.

I use to keep reptiles, both lizards and snakes but only Tiger snake and Red Bellied Black snake.

if i had the chance to keep venomous, those and your death adders would be high on my list, beautiful snakes.....

You don't know the half of it. Most of us don't know the difference between to, too and two. We don't know the difference between then and than. We don't know the difference between bring and take, come and go, came and went, brought and took, ad infinitum. If you don't believe me, just peruse a few internet forums.

I think there have been a couple of bites form the Inland Taipan but nothing happen....of course that could mean the next 98 fully envenomate:D

As a side note, the fellow who first set out to get venom from the Coastal Taipan (back in the 1950s I think) to produce anti venene was bitten and died. But he managed to get the snake back to the laboratory.

The boomslang is interesting. There was a herpetologist Karl Schmidt who wrote a book in 1957, from memory Living Reptiles of the World and he died from a juvenile Boomslang bite as the book was released. I got the book as a Christmas present in 1960 when I was only 12. Apparently the Boomslang venom is extremely slow to act and there are virtually no symptoms for a couple of days and this resulted in people in Africa thinking it was not dangerous.

When it comes to comparing pit vipers and vipers to elapids I think if anti venene was available I would prefer to take a hit from a deadly elapid. Actually a good bite from a big Eastern Diamondback or Gaboon would be bad even if without venom:D

Keeping even a skink in Australia now needs a license, in fact the general setup for keeping reptiles is like our gun laws.

With the Red Belly, I don't think anyone has died from one but a friend of mine took a hit and was in and out of hospital for a bout 3 months, lots of kidney problem. I use to treat them in a bit of relaxed manner but not after that.

that sucks.....used to chat with a guy down your way that did venom research bout 9 years ago or so...Tim something.....Nass? Nais?, cant remember now, guy was bout half nuts but entertaining as hell to chat with.....came over here and visited another keeper down in Texas, used to have a pic of him handling a big ol' Texas bullsnake, had it tailed just like when he handles taipans and such in the venom lab....was funny as hell given the snake was completely harmless....

heres the Montana variety in a 2.5 gallon bucket

Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry is probably the main venom bloke here. He also has a forum

http://www.venomdoc.com/forums/

ive talked with him aswell.....nice bloke, was real interested with a study he did on some of the oddball rear-fangeds like the Hydrodynastes i was keeping at the time, 6 or so years ago....from what lil i talked to him seems like a down to earth guy that i would love a day to sit and BS snakes with...

Tim wasnt any big name guy, just the main guy in charge of the snakes at the lab he worked at i happened to cross paths with on the net a ways back....

His latest thing has been monitors having venom and in particular the Komodo. I think his forum with the Venom forum at the bottom has a lot.

We have some good monitors in Australia and 2 bigger ones.

looking back it seems kinda odd not looking for the venom in monitors, especially given they were looking at the komodo's saliva to start with years ago for the bacteria it contains aswell....

one of my must do hunts someday is after water buffalo down there, give me a chance to look for all things scaley aswell.......the wife isnt to impressed with that idea....she yells at me for diving for a racer or bullsnake.....in 7 years she hasnt broken me of the habit from the previous 17 of chasing them.....

I know what you mean

Of course where you shoot the water buffalo is also home to our big scaly special. There was a move by the Northern Territory gov't to give out a limited number of permits each year to shoot crocs on a "pay for trophy" basis but it never got through, the federal gov't would not approve.

If you're not an American and you choose to take him to a hospital, make sure you have enough garse (fuel) in your vehicle.

i dont know of any test that would be quick enough to be of help to test the venom......going to take a seriously specialized laboratory as far as i know, and time means tissue death with hemotoxic venom and you may only have hours with a neurotoxic....and its not a simple thing as some rattlers have primarily neurotoxic venom and there are cobras and other elapids(cobras, mambas, kraits, sea snakes and any Aussie front fanged snake are elapids as well as our coral snakes) that have primarily hemotoxic type venoms.....

in the US at the moment identification isnt important past was it a viper(rattler, cottonmouth or copperhead) or a coral snake, though if you were bit by a coral snake at this moment your kinda [bleep] as there is no coral snake antivenin in the US at the moment, none is currently being manufactured and the old stock pile of the last stuff hit its expiration date this last fall....at the moment all viper bites are covered under Cro-Fab though it works better for some species than others....however depending where your at it might be important to know if it was a mohave green or southern pacific as then the doc can be prepared for the neurological symptoms....

in other countries your prolly best off killing the snake and taking it with you to the hospital....

Not garse my friend, petrol or diesel.

I'm learning.

OK, according to this: http://www.census.gov/population/www/popclockus.html I just have another 304,446,238 to go.

Plus of course, the illegals

Black Mamba Question - was performed by Santana wasn't it? "Got a Black Mamba Question...."

That made me laugh.

Interesting thread. Snakes don't especially bother me; I have handled a 12 foot python, but steer clear of the poisonous kinds.

One year in Eastern California I found a cooperative subject, a Sidewinder. Interesting critters as some have horns on their heads like little dragons. Famous of course for their sidewinding locomotion.





Supposedly as Rattlers go, they are the least dangerous. Please Excuse my photo of a photo, as these were taken BD (before digital). The yellow stripe in the second photo is the center stripe on the remote road I was on, near Death Valley - it gives some scale of the little guy.

alright then, i spoke to the vet not more that 30min ago.

i told him about the whole forum debate. he found it amusing. he said that he still uses this method(electricity). since we are not too far from the Botswana border he is the vet for a couple of cattle farmers to the south of Botswana. he told me he knows of a guy that was bitten by a black mamba in botswana and on the way to the hospital(which is quite a long distance) the driver kept prodding the guy. and low and behold he is a alive and well today.


he went further and said:" i have it in black and white that this works"

Did a search on this and found lots of articles that discounted any shock effect, but found a couple of interesting ones-
http://venomshock.wikidot.com/
http://www.echotech.org/technical/az/aztext/azch11di.htm#Elec
http://www.nytimes.com/1986/08/05/science/the-doctor-s-world-new-shock-therapy-for-snakebites.html
http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=388961

I know how to settle this once and for all. I need a volunteer to provoke a black mamba into striking. I understand this will not be difficult. After the mamba strikes we will shock the piss out of the victim, and then monitor his vital signs for recovery. Should he recover, then I will provisionally endorse the shock treatment. Should he expire, then we have evidence that this is an old wives tale. Anyone know where to find Maser.

hatari.......as i have stated before one of the "what ifs" in the whole equation is mambas are capable of giving a dry bite and given how fast the venom works i wouldnt sit around waiting for symptoms to appear before applying the electricity......so inorder for it to be a valid test i suggest you get the mamba good and pissed off and let it bite Maser a couple times before shocking the hell out of him.....in the interest of science ofcourse

In this scenario, which is the victim? Will the mamba need to be shocked to save him?

chit, didnt think of that......might classify as animal abuse......referring to the snake ofcourse......

hey hatari, good idea. so this is your suggestion, not to bad. seeing as it is your suggestion then go a head and get yourself bitten by a mamba, plenty of cattle prods in the vicinity of mambas. go a head the locals await!

In the event of a recovery, should you not let the snake bite again, this time do not administer electricity, and then see what happens.

I've seen Mambas every time I have been to Africa. They never bother us since we have seen them first and act appropriately, meaning leaving the animal alone and not mess with it.
jc

I will need to observe to ensure the scientific method is observed. You are welcome to participate if Maser is unavailable.

Hello all, I have been reading this thread and have found it highly entertaining. I know that it is an old thread... seven years old, but I do have some of the answers that you were asking about.

Between 2007 and 2011 a team of Italian researchers published a series of papers in highly respected publications concerning their research on the effects of direct current (DC) on snake venom. They found that the Metalloproteinaise enzymes in the venom were torn apart at the metallic bonds due to the action of the direct current. These bonds seem to be destroyed before protein of normal tissue are negatively effected by the electricity.

The research papers are:

Inactivation of Phospholipase A2 and Metalloproteinase from Crotalus atrox Venom by Direct Current--J BIOCHEM MOLECULAR TOXICOLOGY Volume 21, Number 1, 2007

Structural Modification of Proteins by Direct Electric Current from Low Voltage - J BIOCHEM MOLECULAR TOXICOLOGY Volume 23, Number 5, 2009

Inhibition of Hemorragic Snake Venom Components: Old and New Approaches --Toxins 2010, 2, 417-427; doi:10.3390/toxins2040417

Accelerated removal of deamidated proteins and endogenous electric fields: possible implications --Gen. Physiol. Biophys. (2010), 29, 302–308

Inactivation of Crotalus atrox Venom Hemorrhagic Activity by Direct Current Exposure Using Hens’ Egg Assay--J BIOCHEM MOLECULAR TOXICOLOGY Volume 25, Number 6, 2011



For those of you who are scientifically minded, I suggest that you access the papers, or at least read the abstracts available on the web. They are interesting reading.

These researchers were able to prove very precisely and credibly that it does work. So the question is why did some of the other "Studies" not show positive results? Several of the studies used mice, rats and other small animals which are natural prey for snakes and it was shown to be impossible to get a localised action of the venom in these test subjects. Once the venom was injected, the animals began to be digested and die. It is interesting to note that Ron Guderian did some work at his alma mater around the same time as the other studies, but he shocked the venom first and then injected it into the mice. The mice all survived, showing that the venom had been deactivated.

One other issue was that some of the studies used high powered stun guns, some of which were tasers. Some of the higher powered stun guns produce both DC and AC, which does not have the same action on the venom as DC. Also it seems that higher powered stun guns (above 80Kv) don't work at neutralizing the venom like the lower voltage devices. We are not sure yet why this is, and more research could be done to investigate this. The Italian studies used 12 volts DC with success. The high voltage just assists in penetrating deep into the tissues to tear apart the venom.

There is a vet in Colorado who heard from a local farmer that using a cattle prod was successful against rattler bites on their dogs and cows. He started to use a TASER and a high powered stun gun, but found that he didn't have success. The customer suggested that he use a "Hot Shot" cattle prod instead, and immediately he started seeing the same results on his animals.

I have been talking with people who have used this treatment for years and collecting accounts when I could. The things that I and others have found to work are, low powered stun guns below 75Kv, cattle prods, electric fences, ignition systems from small gasoline engines, some car ignition systems (can be dangerous voltages), TENS units and surprisingly even tractor and car batteries with some people. Things that don't work are high powered stun guns, TASERS etc.

A friend of mine, Ron Guderian, who was one of the missionary doctors who pioneered this treatment started up a government endorsed treatment program in the hospital Vosandes in Quito Equador in 1982 where close to 600 were treated in a 10 year period (none were dry bites, all had pain and swelling). This treatment program showed that mortality went down to zero with people treated with electric shock, and morbidity was almost eliminated. They did comparisons with those who refused any treatment and those who only received antivenin. It was clear that the shocking of the bites had a drastic effect on the recovery time and the final outcome of the patient. The program is still continuing.

This treatment is now supported in Italy with medical claims by manufacturers of devices.

It has been found by doctors since the 80s that this method works for stings of wasps and bees, it stops the necrosis of brown recluse spiders and other necrotic spiders (TENS units work really well for this) and scorpion stings. There have been anecdotal evidence of it working on many other things even on jelly fish stings, infected dog bites, and some neurotoxins from plants. There is lots of room for further research and testing in this area and there is still lots that we don't know, but we do know enough to say that when you get bitten by a snake or spider, giving it a good shock with a cattle prod can help greatly and won't do any damage.

It is important that if you use a small engine ignition system, that you use a ground contact so that the shock can travel deep into the tissue and actually flow not just give a light zap, otherwise the shock will not be as effective.

Hope that helps to answer your questions and perhaps even saves a life one day.

Cheers from OZ,
Tim.

welcome to this campfire, sir

Welcome, Tim.




I got a chcukle out of my original responses to the thread. I had a better sense of humor 7 years ago.

Interesting. I did not know of testing that was very successful. When this idea of shocking the bite came out, I knew a couple of Docs that said , if you can catch me ,maybe you can shock me. I will keep a cattle prod in my truck. Might be handy for several situations. Thanks for posting.

Thanks for the greetings guys! One other thing worthy of mention is that it works best the quicker you treat the bite. Over 3 hours from the time of the bite you will have too much damage and the venom has spread too much to make the treatment really effective. Usually 6 to 8 one second shocks are sufficient at the bite site to neutralise the venom. There is lots of other info at venomshock.wikidot.com it also gives sources of modified stun guns etc.

Welcome and thanks for some really cool information.

Not a black Mamba but I had to remove him from a ground blind before daylight while photographing some deer in south Texas.

Most snake encounters have the element of exaggeration added to them to some lesser or greater degree.

I remember some people on an African hunt forum beating up a report of an aggressive black mamba attack.
Turns out the snake was encountered and persistently pursued all the way to a hiding hole, where they began
to touch/physically interfere with the creature..eventually BM gave the irritant a serious dose of what they asked for. RIP.

I don't see the bullet hole in that snake.

You sir are correct. I had a camera and a sidearm with me but I did not want to scare the deer away. I ran him out of the blind and he crawled into a rat/rabbit hole about 20 feet from the blind so after I got my photos for the morning I went back to camp and got a shovel and dug him out. Let's just say that was his last sunrise!

It was our first day in the bush, Namibia,June,2007. We were hunting gems buck on the first day of a14 day hunt. Dirk Rohrmann, thePH was driving his old cut down Land Rover. My wife Carol was riding shotgun and Manual,the tracker and I were in the high seats. We had stalked and looked over many gems buck, but nothing I wanted to take. Dirk suggested we move to another area also known for big Bulls.it was chilly early in that,but when the sun comes up the temperature becomes very pleasant. As we went down the 2trackLwas struck as how similar Namibia is to South Texas. All of a sudden there is a whap on the driver's side door and Dirk yells out the "f" word. I am looking around to see what happened and all I see is the grass move. I asked Dirk what happened and he told me a black mamba was sunning itself by the2 track and we had run over it's tail. It reared up and struck at the Rover and hit the door denting it about 6 inches from Dirk's arm. After a few minutes to calm down and realize how lucky we were, the hunt went on. That is the dangerous snake adventure I have ever had and I hope it is the last. Porsche73

Hunting buddy had a run in with a couple and he said it really gets you thinking when the PH and trackers get seriously freaked out!

Old thread or not a very interesting read, both entertaining and informative.

I find an intersting bit of humor in this research, done in italy.

It is kind of like insect repellent research on the north pole in the middle of winter.

How many seriously venomous snakes live in Italy? Not a criticism at all, just my twisted look at the topic!

A snake dented the door.... lmfao.

Are you allowed to shoot a black mamba?

The DC electric info has been around as long as I recall. DC stun guns many years ago I was reading too.

I dunno, but I"d rather take the shock and see if it works than KNOW I'm about to die. YMMV.

I"ve read quite a bit of positive info on it. Even to the point of killing the poison of wasps etc.... not that I need a shock for a minor sting... but the way scorpions are starting to work on my system.... thought I'd eventually be immune to their pain but its going the other way.. of course I probably don't get hit by a scorpion more than 8 or so times a year.

Full on hell yeah! Just don't miss! Those SOBs are mean and fast. When I'm in Africa on every safari I always bring along a 12 gauge pump gun. I love to hunt sand grouse. Go thru 4 boxes of #6 in a few days. But, I always have that sucker loaded with some shells and it in the rack on the truck for my mamba phobia. I will post a bunch of cool pics as soon as I can figure out posting pics here. Years ago I almost stepped on 2!!! Mating puff adders. Would have been fatal to be bit. 20km from camp,(bet no anti venom) they would have just set me up under a cool tree and started fighting over my gear. 2 257 Weatherby mag 115 gr. Trophy Bonded Bearclaw at point blank(2 inches) killed them.

PAs are primarily an ambush species so bites normally involve careless humans running into them while the snake is
minding its own business.

After already spotting the mating pair why the big need to kill them? paranoia I gather.




Many venomous snake bites in Africa don't result in actual death. Deaths numbers (drawn from health centre data)
is in the area of 7000+ p.a.

..but actual venomous bites (drawn from health centre data) number above 300,000 p.a.

estimated unreported bites and deaths are a few times greater than those figures.

source: 2011 March issue of journal Toxicon.

additional: http://zoobase.toxinology.net/Exotic%20Snake%20Protocols/ESBP-Bitis-arietans.pdf

Snake venom toxicology studies take place in modern lab facilities with lab animals as test subjects,
neither of which (or the range of scientific staff) being required to be in Africa.

Venom samples can and do also come from not just the wild, but Zoos and private reptile parks.
A range of venom study centres in one country alone can each hold a constant inventory of
venoms from a wide variety of both native and non-native global species.
Its logistically much easier to milk captivity snakes every fortnight or so, than just constantly
trying to rely on capture and milking in the wild.

If you have the required captivity snakes in the same city, state or country as the venom study centres
all the better.

I think if I ever get bit by Jake No Shoulders I would want to try a nickle's worth of direct current along with what ever else the doctors advised.

Wanted their skins. Nice and pretty. On my wall now.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...96239/how-to-post-your-photos#Post696239

I have heard they have a difficult time finding volunteers despite offering up to $25 US for participants

My wife tried to sign me up, but alas I was really busy on her honey do list shortly afterwards

Why kill them? So that they are good snakes.

PH sent me this pic a couple days after I left.

Maybe it's the stories but I know I am very cautious of where I step, what I walk or ride under and just my surroundings in general. I am just fine with the notion of them fleeing the area to escape contact with me but I'll still be vigilant about my surroundings. My home turf has it's fair share of rattlers and copperheads and I am the same way here at home.