though I named this topic African Myths. it should be explained that the last place these myths started was Africa. rather these myths are from salesman that have never set foot in Africa. I am proud to say that I have a handful of friends that are foreign to Africa of which 50% are probably from the US alone. I am fortunate to say that all of these friends are good people. my kind of people. no nonsense down to the wire lets get the job done with the least amount of who ha and hi-vife's. in short decent hard working God fearing folks.

what simply irritates me is the lies they are exposed to, and with which they confront you with when they bless you with their presence over here.

I will sum this up by simply explaining that foreign hunters are told that to be the best hunter you can be(for Africa) you have to have the uber killing cannon. this is Bulls$#@^&%T!!!
it seems to me hunters are being taken advantage of by salesman.
when talking about plains game my pet peeve is the so called:" big boned thick skinned animals" what the hell is that???

I recently red an article in a very celebrated American hunting mag. in this article the author states that from Gemsbuck and bigger ABSOLUTE MINIMUM is 338wm. BULLs@#$%T.

I have said this before and as a local hunter I will say it again, if you are a good hunter with a 30-06(in America) why in the world on plains game in Africa do you need anything bigger??? If you do whant to to spend anything do it on premium bullets, thats it.

I would put my money on a hunter that knows his 30-06 vs the hunter that has n new unproven untested 338 any day.

if you do know your 338 or 325 or 375 well that is a bonus but it is not the min requirement such as the salesman would let you to believe.

sorry for the rant, but I have just seen a good man been had again by this old African Myth that did not start in Africa.

as far as the local hunters the advice would be: 270, if you whant more: 30-06.

personally I use 308 for most of my hunts/culls and 300mag for Eland with 150 tsx. though my 308 has taken it 's fair share of eland with shelf ammo.

all I am saying is double check the so called expert advice, rather mind the advice from your PH.

Well, along the same line (almost), but I will toss in my 2 cents. I am planning my first trip to Africa (this October)and I made up my mind, not to take one of my rifles, but to rent from the PH. Many folks (& some friends) tell me not to do this. However, one friend (Tom) told me the following: Look to the big picture, it does not matter what rifle you use or what ammo you use, or if you hunt Springbok, or Cape Buffalo or Leopard. Just go and Hunt Africa. He says I will never forget the adventure.
So, when people see my photos and ask about the rifle, I will say it belonged to the PH.

That's what we did on a Canadian hunt. We wanted the baggage capacity saved for cape, horns, backstrap and tenderloins. I'm sure one could do all that and the guns, it just costs more.

It seemed a lot less trouble, although I would loved to have had my own gun, which is nicer than the one I used.

But the elk ended up just as dead...

DF

I agree with your personal decision 30mm, but am a firm believer in proving myself with the rifle I hunt. I am in no way questioniing the PH's calibre or platform choice, but rather my comfort level with the platform. I have a 12.5" LOP which makes most rifles too long in the wheel base for me. I really want the rifle to fit so that I can do my part.

Lt Dan makes a valid point that your normal hunting rifle is a good choice. I took a 338Winmag and a 3006. The win mag I loaded down so the trajectories of the two rifles were within a 1" path out to 400yds(proven by target). Neither rifle was wanting in the efficiency department. I took the 338 because it has been an old friend for thirty some years and is really just an extention of me when I want to shoot.

Too often the new rifle buyer does not do due diligence about need and performance level meeting. African animals have a physiological or more specifically anatomical difference when compared to NA game. Their vitals are typically further forward but blaming a calibre for the failure of the shot placement is far easier than taking personal responsibility.

I pooched the shot on a white tailed gnu and we followed him 5 miles before he laid down. I shot a killing shot on a moose body that did eventually kill the wildebeast. It hit the lower portion of both lungs rather than heart and lungs. I had done the research before the hunt, but in the excitement of my first African anmal, I had reverted to old habits.

Lt Dan is right. There is no need for wonder cannons on plains game.

30mm trusting your PH and his choices is the right first step. Have a great hunt.

I just got back from Africa. While there I used the PH's 375. I had my choice between that and a 308. I took the 375. Why? Not because I thought the 308 couldn't do the job but rather because the 375 had a good Leupold scope on it and the 308 had an inferior xxxxx scope on it. Plus, since I have never owned a 375 and this was the 100 th anniversary of it's development, I thought it would be cool to use it to hunt in 2012. My particular gun was loaded down some but it did do the job. I used and recommend ear protection also.

I figure my 270 Weatherby shooting 160g Partitions at 3150 fps will do fine for plains game. My 500 Jeffery will do for everything else.

One of the guys I hunted with in RSA in 2002 took a .270 Weatherby. It worked fine on a variety of plains game, including some of the supposedly super-tough ones.

There are a few American gun writers who don't promote the old super-tough plains game myth, and think a .30-06 is plenty. Of course, they've hunted with one a few times--or a .308 or 7x57....

I even heard tell of one idiot that went over with a spruced up .303 british...killed schitt with it too...or so the legend goes......

Just back and the 7x57, 8x57 and 358 Win worked. Imagine that...

http://www.huntingadventures.net/index.php?nav=gunsandammo

One of our own states it well:

"Of the caliber's I have seen used the 270, 7mm magnum, .30/06, the various .30 caliber magnums, .338's and the .375 H&H are about the most popular. The .300 Winchester magnum is without question the most popular rifle used on plains game by American hunters. I have never seen any of these cartridges fail to harvest game when they are hit correctly. I prefer to plan for the worst of circumstances, not the best when hunting, so I often times only bring my .375 H&H. Unlike hunting in the USA, when hunting in Africa for an impala you never know when the buffalo of your dreams will walk out in front of you. Or when hunting buffalo you might see that 60" kudu bull at 320 yards. You might need a bit more range then the .458 Winchester magnum you're carrying. I have learned over the years to stick with an all around caliber, because there are so many different species you're likely to run into. I have not yet found a cartridge I like better then either the .375 H&H or the .30/06. I know they are an old and boring pair, but they have served me and countless others very well for nearly 100 years now."

It is not a legend when you have participated in it. Them is just good memories, much like the leopard skin bikini briefs. You were on the development team for the Lee Metford were you not?"

I am fond of the old calibres too. I own 5 303 Br chambered rifles so I don't need hero shots to convince me. I only have one 7x57 and a 275 Rigby on order so it seems I need to pick up the pace. My 4 6.5x55 filled my metric desire until I bought my first 7x57.

Randy
wishing I had a bunch more trips in me to blood my old war horses in Africa. The 303 and 375 are the next two to make the trip.

Randy

I musta been doin' it all wrong all along...shot my first kudu with an 8x57...my 7x57 has made four trips over the pond, as did the .303
Sure...Ive also used a .300 Win, and of course a .375H&H...and did some culling with a .30-06, and even took a .22-250 last time with TSXs in it

I know you all are gonna hate this, but if I had to grab-n-go with one it would be the .30-06 and a premium 180 gr. bullet for everything.....

Dis one...

For PG, I wouldn't hesitate to do it all with a 7x57 loaded with 175gr. Nosler Partitions. Penetration seems to be on par with a 30-06, but without the extra felt recoil.

A couple I know went to Namibia a few years ago. He took his .30-06 with 180 Partitions, which of course worked fine, but talked her into letting him also take along her 7x57 as a back-up. She used it in Montana to hunt everything from pronghorn to elk, but was just going along as an observer in Africa. So he loaded up some 175 Partitions and brought it too.

Well, after a few days of going along, seeing all these nifty animals and eating them every night at dinner, all of a sudden she said she wanted gemsbok of her very own. So the PH got out Kevin Robertson's book and showed her where to shoot one, and they went hunting. The shot was just about 100 yards, and the gemsbok went down pretty much right there with one shot.

An example of one, to be sure, but backed up by a lot of other African animals killed neatly with the 7x57 over quite a few years.

While that is a fine wildebeest and a worthy enough gun, that statement above will not pass.

I own, you had the good sense to handle that rifle striktly with gloves, as a -06 should only ever be.

First time I went, I took a .300 Mag and a .375 H&H, the latter, "just because it was Africa". Something happened to the scope on the .300 and I ended up shooting everything with the .375. I could just as easily taken everything I shot with any cartridge in the .270/.30-06 class. Having scratched my itch, I sold the .375 not long after.

The second time I went, I took a .30-06 and a .338 Win Mag. I shot one animal (a waterbuck) with the .338, as the PH's son had never seen one and wanted to see what it would do. He then used it a couple of days in some culling that he was doing, even shooting an eland with it at an estimated 400 meters. Then, he went back to his .308 which he said was much more comfortable to shoot.

On the other hand, I've known a few born-in-Africa PH's who insist African game is tougher than similar-sized North American game. How do they know this? Not because they've hunted here, but because they've been told so by American hunters--who came over to hunt wildebeest, zebra, gemsbok etc., bringing .338's and 375's because THEY'D been told about the toughness of African game.

Of course, some PH's have hunted over. I just haven't run into any yet.

I would not rule that out completely. African plains game have evolved to cope with many high order predators that are not really found in North America or Europe. I suspect also that as many species of plains game are herd animals, if they are wounded in any way, their instinct is to run with the herd for protection, although the herd usually eventually pushes them out...

While I am not sure these factors amount to much if a plains game animal takes a well placed shot with an adequate calibre, I suspect things are not so clear cut when dealing with a poorly placed shot. For instance, I suspect a zebra may run a lot further with a poor shot than say a feral burro??

I certaintly can't prove this, and don't know of any scientific studies into the matter.

That said, I do agree a .270win or 30-06 with suitable bullets is more than adequate for most plains game in most circumstances..

Pete,

That's a common theory on the toughness of African game, and may have some validity. Especially since elk are herd animals and evolved in Asia with brown bears and wolves--and are considered among the toughest of North American game.

But unless somebody has experience with both elk and similar-sized African plains game, how is the comparison made?

Personally, I haven't found gemsbok, zebra and blue wildebeest any tougher than elk, and haven't found any of the 200-350 pound plains game any tougher than a big northern whitetail, especially during the rut. And I have seen pronghorns packing far more lead than springbok, impala, etc.

Also, caribou are herd animals and evolved with the same big Asian predators as the elk, but aren't particularly hard to kill. Moose aren't considered as tough as elk, despite their size, and the same can be said about eland compared to blue wildebeest. Kudu are considered "softer" than gemsbok, wildebeest and zebra, even though they're similar in size and are at least as much herd animals as gemsbok.

Which is why I'm very skeptical of theories, especially from people who haven't hunted a variety of animals on both continents.

I wish I could have gotten my rifles to So Africa when I went. I was taking an '06 and 7mm Mag. I used the PH's .243 and .375 to take an impala and warthog respectively.

We borrowed another guides '06 when our baggage finally arrived and fired 6 shots, one at a box and 5 at game. We took impala, kudu, gemsbok, blue wildebeest and zebra, one shot each.

I believe they were tough, but lung shots are deadly.

KC

Fost I have done exactly that on two separate safaris

One of the animals Ingwe took on one of those safaris was a zebra where the shot was somewhat more angling than he planned. The 175 pretty much went lengthwise--and worked.

And I've also taken a 7x57 on two safaris, though with somewhat lighter bullets of 156-160 grains of several makes. It worked fine on game up to kudu and wildebeest. Even dared using the 160 Sierra GameKing on several smaller animals, bup to warthog in size, and it worked very well.

JB,,
I was interested in your post that you have seen pronghorn take some lead.

I used to guide for them on the sly years ago, and I firmly believe they are one of the toughest critters on four feet for their size.

Our own JJ Hack is also of the opinion African animals are tougher and he's hunted and guided here in the States as well. I don't have enough experience to proffer an opinion on the subject, but I will add this, my uncle hunted Angola and Mozambique in the late sixties early seventies and took many animals including the Big Five. He used two rifles, both pre-64 70s in 270 and 458 and he only used the 458 on two animals elephant and buffalo. He took his lion and everything else with his 270 and old-style Winchester Silvertips.

On the other hand, I've related this before, but Craig Boddington who's hunted more than all of us combined, tells of the biggest kudu he passed because the only shot he gave him was a going away shot and [sic] all I had was a 3006. He goes on to say he would not have hesitated taking that Texas Heart Shot had he been using his 375. As for me, I can't afford many safaris, much less one hundred plus like Craig, but you'll never see me in the bush with anything smaller than a 300 and 180gr bullets. jorge

My last safari, probably ever, was shot with combo guns.

I took everything with either a 12ga/8X57JR cape gun or a 12/12/9,3X74R drilling, including enough francolin for some great "tasty-bits" around the fire.

The mild 8X57JR was deadly to 250 yards on wildebeest on down. I also used it to finish my partner's muffed shot on a big eland. His initial two gut shots and one placed well with the 8MM cape gun ended things.

To a large degree, I am in agreement. To me though, I'd insist on using a larger caliber and heavier bullet on some PG - Mt. Nyala, Bongo, Lord Derby Eland, and Roan all come to mind. That combo would be borderline on the more common Eland species and on Giraffe, as well, IMO.

I guess I should quit planning a PG safari, as I don't own a 30-06 - just a 9.3x62mm, with a couple more in the works.

Sarcasm noted but, quite the contrary, you should proceed in planning, full speed ahead. The 9.3x62 has to be considered one of the greatest African cartridges ever developed.

I had friend who guided in New Mexico and Colorado for mule deer, elk, sheep, bear, antelope and lion. He then sold his US businesses and started hunting in Zambia and after quite some time moved to Tanzania. He probably has more lion and leopard in the SCI book than any other PH ?

Just a lead in to a comment he one time made to me somewhat in jest, but he told me directily that it had some basis in fact.

His comment was that if an elk was as tough pound for pound as an impala you would have a hard time carrying an adequate rifle. His choice of rifles was a 300 WBY and a Brown Built 458.

I've only been to Africa 5 times and have not seen much proof of this but I did assist tracking one impala that left a huge majority of his lungs hanging in the brush behind him. We found him dead a little over 400 yards from the original hit.

Some critters are just tougher than others within a species.

jorge,

Craig passed on the rear-end shot on the kudu because he wasn't sure the .30-06 bullet would penetrate enough, not because of any conviction that African plains game is tougher.

Craig has written many times that he believes African plains game is NOT tougher than similar-sized American game. I can quote you the exact passages from his books if you want.

6MMWASP,

It's certainly true that some individual animals are tougher than others, and stuff happens now and then. I once shot a doe pronghorn through the near shoulder and front of both lungs with a bullet that expanded nicely, the range about 110 yards. (I know the bullet expanded because it ended up in the far shoulder.) It ran over a little rise after the shot, so I waited a minute or so before following, expecting to find it down within 50 yards or so.

Instead I saw the doe limping up a hill 1/4 of a mile away. I watched where it crossed the ridge, then stalked the area from another direction. The doe was bedded just over the ridge and still alive 45 minutes later, and got up and ran a couple hundred yards, even though blood was coming out its nose and mouth, as with any typical lung shot. That was really uncommon, but it happened.

I've shot a pile of impala both as trophies and during cull hunts, and seen a bunch more killed, with cartridges from the .270 Winchester to the .375 H&HG, in Namibia, Botswana, Tanzania and several parts of South Africa. While one went farther than expected with a good hit from a 7x57, it still traveled less than 100 yards before falling dead. It ran downhill, and some of its travel might have been rolling down the steep ravine after it died. That's as far as I've ever seen one go after a solid chest hit with any cartridge. Maybe Zambian impala are a lot tougher.

We have been back from a plains game hunt for one week. We took a Blue Wildebeest, one Oryx, and One Kudu all with a 3oo Win Mag shoot 180 gr partitions. The Wildebeest made about 400 years, the Oryx about 50 yards, the Kudu about 30. However, my son shot 2 Impalas and an Oryx with his bow. The Oryx went about a 100 yards. I expect bullet placement is the trick. However, in my limited experience, anything bigger than these might be nice to have a 375. We had a 7mm Rem Mag with us, but the PH was pretty solid on shooting the 300. However, he used a 308 on everything.

I dont have that much experience but do have an opion. . My perception is that there are general characteristics of breeds or species but also, as with humans, a great deal of individual variation may be found. "Toughness" or vitality may vary within a species, dependant on age, immediate environment, state of alertness, or genetic inheritance, much, perhaps, like in a soft, out-of-shape office clerk vs. An elite Special Forces individual. Maybe this is an analogy that cannot be made however. I'm not sure there is an analogous critter to the "soft" office worker but i would say that I've noticed as much variation to well placed slugs within a species as between species and that may include perhaps a hundred elk, deer (whitetail and mule-), caribou, antelope and PG (only eight of that number).

One can get impressions on a little experience. One of mine was that elk, gemsbok, and zebra might have similar "toughness" quotients. But I have seen whitetail toughness too while the occasional elk is just deflated at the shot -- "like a caribou".

Mule Deer

I bow to your experience, I didn't see what I saw. In South Africa.

Thanks for calling me a liar. Like you said it never happened

Outfitters are another bad example of perpetuating the myth. I have seen on more then a few websites "minimum calibers" for game animals. One in Namibia even stated we will not take you on a hunt for eland with anything smaller then a 300 Win mag with 180gr bullets.

Interesting theory on the toughness of American pronghorns.

I feel they are extremely easy to kill and have never witnessed any so called toughness from any the ones I have killed or witnessed. Even with less than perfect shot placement they seem to goes a little ways and bed down, easy to stalk up on and finish.

I have been hunting them in SD pretty much every year since 1979. Maybe Montana Pronghorns are tougher?

actually i agree with John on pronghorns......hit around the edges especially they will go a hell of alot farther than mule deer weighting twice as much on the average......dont have enough experience with elk to judge against them and havent been to Africa but hit a speed goat to far back and hit a mule deer to far back and you will usually be trailing the speed goat the farthest....

John, re-read my post, I don't believe I said African game was tougher, I just said I'm not qualified to proffer an opinion based on my limited experienc and I agree with Craig and you in that regard. The locus of my post was on caliber selection and I believe I stated exactly what you posted, that in that instance, the 06 was "not enough gun" and I agree, that is why at a minimum, I carry at least a 300 for Africa. jorge

I don't think it is whether or not an animal is tougher or not. Africa can be dry and dusty. A big hole means a bigger blood trail if it requires finding a wounded animal. This is what I read that "JJ" had to say. He suggests a 30 caliber minimum for a bigger blood trail where hurd animals run and it is dryer. His two choices were a 30-06 and a 375 HH. Both have similar trajectorys, so if you can shoot one, you can shoot another.

My kids have taught me more about what will work than all my years of what I thought I knew. I was never a big 308 Win fan probably because everyone had one. Everyone had one probably because they work. With a 308 my kids and even dad here shots oodle of stuff near and far with it. With that said I don't think we give credit to the bullets when talking calibers. A few on this subject have done that for validation which is how it should be. I have seen slow 125 gr bullets do better than normal speed150 gr bullets.
Sometimes bullets fail. How or why the fail may cause us to want to go with a bigger caliber to stack the odds in our favor. Trophy fees can do that for you. That was what drive my descision on what I used. But with kids you cant for bigger. The bullet is very important. When the XP3 bullet came out before our safari it proved flat shooting and accurate. We would be hunting the Eastern Cape and I knew shots might be longish. We harvested quite a few springbok but a shot at 80 yards on a blessbock did not work well. We spent almost 2 hours tracking and chasing that animal. During that time we thought my son shot low in the leg. Finally we got in position for an ambush shot at 385 yards and my son dropped him. The first shot was total bullet failure. The angle was from front into the shoulder. The damage was severe but the bullet never penetrated the chest cavity. It almost looked like the bullet blew up with the force going back outside based on the damage. It was like the bulet exited the way it came in. I had also brought along 168 TSX in case we got into something bigger and we used those the rest of the trip. The 80 yard shot was one of the closest shots we made. With my kids I didn't have the choice of a bigger cartridge, I had to choose a better bullet. They say sometimes things happen. I only let it happen once

It's not the continent they come from, its the development and species that matters.

I've never seen anything anywhere that takes more lead and shows no lethal reaction then mountain goat or moose. However they are not usually distance runners and typically lay up rather quickly.

Elk are distance travellers and soak up some lead as well. This gives them the toughness reputation that they deserve White tails are much like kudu they seem to have the least will to live of the normal species we hunt.

Now consider game that is like a mountain goat with the travel plans of elk that lives in big herds. This is why the reputation of African game exists. Wildebeest is every bit as tough and solid as a goat, travel like elk, and will stay with the herd all the while having spoor erased by the group. These factors make finding these animals difficult which adds fuel to the African game stereotype.

There is some physiology issues too. The thick thorn laden bush may have developed some more rubbery thick better sealing hides. I have given this a lot of thought. When you look at the thickness and texture of a raw skin from an African animal it is different for many species. It's defiantly different between kudu and gemsbok and wildebeest. Coincidence? Herd vs loaner?

Herd animals crash thru brush wildly running to stay with a group. Kudu ( white tails too) carefully and delicately pick and choose a path to find a place to hide. Kudu thin skin frail skeleton amazing agility. Wildebeest much thicker skin much heavier build, and not even in the agility game by comparison.

African game tougher? Well that's a broad statement. Certainly not all of it. American hunters will be exposed to the toughest PG species on there hunts and have other hunters in camp that are as well. So the amount if game seen killed in a ten day hunt could be a lifetime of experience for many.

This causes the opinion that it's tougher. Lots of solidly built game shot in a single trip. How many hunters see 30-40 big game shot in a ten day trip in America? It's not a blanket answer that covers all species on both continents.

How tough do you African hunters consider a barbary sheep to be?

In my opinion, the belief that African game is harder to kill comes from elderly gentlemen who think they have to buy a heavier caliber rifle for Africa, and either from lack of practice or recoil, flinch with it, wounding the game. Far better to just take whatever you use for deer or elk. For plains game, that is.

In my experience, shooting anything from an impala up to a gemsbok, Wildebeest, or kudu one time in the chest with a 180 grain Nosler Partition bullet from a .300 magnum produces a dead animal. Same for an elk.

I wanted to shoot a lion with a 180 grain Partition (legal in Zimbabwe). Lions only weigh about 450 pounds max. But my PH made me use a .375 to heart-lung it. I'm not sure it did any better than the .300 would have done. Following up a wounded one might have been a different matter.

I disagree with JJ Hack about using .30 caliber bullets at a minimum to leave a blood trail. After all, the difference between a .30 caliber and a 7mm is only .024 inches, which hardly seems to matter when compared with the organs and arteries of an animal weighing several hundred pounds.

IMHO African Game is not 'tougher' per se...just evolved in a predator rich environment.Basically to me this means they are more 'tightly wrapped'..
Kinda like the difference between whitetails a mule deer ( though my predator rich environment doesnt hold up on this end of the argument...)Whitetails are more tightly wrapped in my experience. The same behind the shoulder shot that will often put a mule deer down on the spot will just put a whitetail into warp drive. Granted, he will die just the same, and soon, but he will put as much real estate between him and you as he can before he succumbs.
Alot of African game Ive shot has done the same thing...with the exception of Impala...but as JB noted, there are exceptions to the exceptions....

It's about a 20% difference. Not just .024 examples:

Would you like a 20% raise?
Would you like to pay 20% more for food, gas, home, etc?
Would you like to miss the target by 20%
would you like to get 20% more fuel economy?

When you have had to look for hundreds of animals in a 20 year career there begins to evolve a commonality in some of the tracking jobs. One of these has been the 30 caliber diameter. If you're content with the success you have, then go with it. I on the other hand have had very diverse skill levels of people with me. I prefer to help my hunters to choose cartridges that have been known successful and have a track record of allowing us to quickly locate game. A kind of a base line to start with. Something like the idea that the 375HH is a minimum for DG.

I want my hunters hunting, not searching for game that they shot in the morning or the previous evening. I have to deal with hunters of every level, from kids to seniors, professional athletes to the handicapped. My resolution to this business is clearly different then the individual expert arriving to hunt. It's always the choice and the checkbook of the visiting hunter to take the advise of a professional or go forth with his personal choice and play the odds.

6MMWASP,

Where the hell did I call you a liar? I've read my post to you twice, and can't find it.

I'm sure you posted exactly what you saw. Aside from my experience with imapala being different, my point (perhaps not too well made) is that in hunting occasionally some animal acts far out of the norm when hit--like the pronghorn I shot, and the impala you cited. I was merelu suggesting that pronghorn might be as tough as impala--and providing an example.

Mule Deer,

I'll not argue with you, it would be foolish for me to do so. You a write for a living.

Your last comment ( Maybe Zambian impala are a lot tougher ) simply hit me wrong. I was simply stating what I saw in South Africa on my first hunt, you must have assumed Zambia as I did not say it happened there.

It appears that others read it the same way, remarking on the antelope you had shot. Tougher antelope in Montana than S.D.

Pronghorn aren't usually hard to kill--if you hit them right. That can be said about any of the animals we're discussing. But there are exceptions, which is all I was pointing out.

Plus, another definition of "tough" is how far animals will go when hit around the edges. I used to guide pronghorn hunters here in Montana and saw quite a bit of that, and pronghorn will go a long way after such hits, whether gutshot or with a leg broken--even if they're bleeding like crazy from a broken leg. The pronghorn guides I've hunted with in a few other states are pretty much of the same opinion, which parallels your friend's statement about "if impala were as big as elk."

Anybody?

Not being disrespectful JJHack, but i don't follow some of your logic. I guide hunters sometimes myself, probably around 100 or so over the years, mostly for the pure joy of hunting. I always suggest to bring something they can shoot accurately. Obviously it has to be an adequate cartridge and bullet combo for the intended game. For example, I'd much rather a guy show up mule deer hunting with a 7-08 that he can shoot well, than a 30-378 like some clown showed up with and proceeded to miss 23 times over the next 3 days. It seems to me a guy flinching while shooting a 300 mag would be looking for more wounded game than the same guy shooting a 180 gr partition through his '06. Maybe I'm missing something.

This is just a wildazz guess but I'd have a hard time imagining an oryx or wildebeast being able to carry more lead than a big bull elk.

Bar none, the toughest animal to kill is a 3 legged pronghorn.
Don't call me to help you with following one of these up. Too dangerous
I only have so much time and I don't have any to waste

of the many adjectives I would think of to describe pronghorn (and I freely admit I have never hunted them) "dangerous" would not be one of them....could you please explain?

AFTERUM: I think he was tongue in cheek....

Though JBs wife had one get after her one day, after soaking up a magazine full of .257s...properly placed ones at that...

I find that most guys that shoot bad with a big gun also shoot bad with about anything. Ego drives the choice for a big 30 but laziness in practicing is the real problem. Money wont make you a hunter and shooter.
If you practice enough you know your limits and will choose your armaments better.
For a large segment of hunters minimums make sense.
What makes more sense is to start with a good trigger and work up from there to find your limit

I have had to help guys that after a bad first shot at a four legged antelope ended up with me spending far too much effort on finishing a 3 legged antelope.
It's a humor for those that have been there done that. You wont forget the experience after a couple of these chases

The best trigger in the universe wouldn't have helped the idiot with his 30-378 on our hunt.

Those guns are an idiot magnet for sure

Tom,

I forgot to mention that one! It happened maybe 10-12 years ago, and here's about what we remember:

Eileen center-punched a good pronghorn buck just behind the shoulders with a 120-grain Nosler Partition started at about 2950 fps frrom her NULA .257 Roberts. He was harassing some does about 200 yards away, and at the shot trotted off a little ways. She expected him to fall, like they usually do, but instead he tried to come back to the does--which had run around in a little circle, then stopped, confused about where the shot came from.

The buck wandered up to one of the does and stuck his nose in her butt. He was quartering toward her at that point so she whacked him in the near shoulder. He staggered, but then stuck his nose up the butt of one of the does. Eileen shot him again broadside through the lungs (probably in about the same place as the first shot) and after that could see through her scope (per usual turned up to 10x) that a 1" stream of blood was pouring out his side. At that point he fell.

When she walked up to him he "charged," dragging himself along the ground for a couple yards while making hooking motions with his horns. At that point she shot him in the head, horns be damned, as she's never backed away from a charging animal.

We were hunting with our friend Casey Tillard on his ranch in central Wyoming and he still talks about the "iron-clad antelope." When we field-dressed the buck the chest cavity was just about completely dry.

99% of the time the first shot would have done the job within 10 seconds. Why didn't it? I dunno, except that it was the peak of the rut.

Well if you remember us telling you the story of a smallish Mule deer buck will and i got years ago...we called him " The Terminator" no amount of good killing seemed to work...for awhile

You could make a classy thong from that hide, if you were wondering..........

JB
Given what the pronghorn buck was engaged in, or atleast trying to be engaged in, perhaps a lot of his blood was not in his chest....mystery solved?

Having shot only eight African animals and 58 U.S. pronghorns my sample size is small. All eight African plains game animals (kudu, gemsbok, blue wildebeest, blesbok, zebra, three impalas) were one shot kills from a 300 WSM shooting 165 grain TTSX bullets. All but one were complete pass throughs; I recovered one bullet from a facing away blesbok that traveled from the left hindquarter and stopped at the neck. It weighed 145 grains.

The U.S. pronghorns were killed with a variety of calibers and bullets from .257 Roberts through 300 Magnum, bullet weights 80 to 180 grains of various manufacturers and types.

I had pronghorns that dropped on the spot, and a few that ran more than 200 yards with both lungs punctured.

There is no way to effectively compare the "toughness" of one animal to another, but in my limited experience you can't say one continent's animals are any tougher or softer than another.

The first pronghorn I killed was a three legged one. The fourth one was broken and twirled around as it ran. It came over a rise, running parallel to a dirt road, so we decided to chase it in our truck.

We clocked it at 35 mph on three legs. I got out and shot it offhand at (probably) 200 yards. The guide said it was 600 yards but that was an exaggeration.

think your wife and mine would get along......she shot her very first mule deer buck in 2010 after a very long time as a doe serial killer.....several of us watched the long stalk through our spotting scopes.....Darla pops up 50 yards from the buck and drills it through the heart.....it kind takes a few shaky steps so she drills him again......half mile off through the spotting scopes we can see blood pouring out the off side.....the buck staggers a few more steps and stopped with its front feet wide apart moments from just dropping.....buck looks at Darla, then looks up the coulee.....and when he glanced back at Darla the second time she put one in his brain pan via his nose.....

we haul arse to get down to her and asked her why in the hell she drilled it in the face for......she said he was still on his feet and it was almost dark and she wasnt gonna chase a wounded animal in the dark.....we just shook our heads and told her he was dead after the first shot.....think the only pieces bone of any size left of the skull were the bases the horns were attached to but it was an adjustable rack....make it any width yah wanted

rattler,

They would indeed get along!

Luckily (or not) Eileen's shot didn't split the top of the skull. But other than making it easier to sling the skull-cap over one of the rafters in the garage, what difference does it make?

I am sure we're all going to get together sometime--and have a great time. We need to get up to Woof Point sometime, since we haven't been there in three years.

McKinneyMike,

Different fluid system.

If and when I go, I will take my Kimber Montana 300WSM, likely with 168gr TTSX for plains game.

I will purchase a 308 for the kids to use.

JG, you don't need to follow my logic. You can use whatever you like, just like anyone else.

When I'm asked by potential hunters this is the reply I give. I have an answer based on 20 years of experience and first hand events. Whatever anyone chooses is up to them. For those that want guidance and ask,..... this is my opinion. Decent consistent blood trails start at .308 diameter and go up from there. Your mileage may vary based on your experiences.

FWIW, Barbary Sheep are native to Africa.

Also, I've found mastering the big bores has made me a better shooter of all calibres, especially the smaller ones ie. 30-06,308,338 etc.

I do believe condition of the animal prior to the shot can make a big difference. An animal in full rut or one agitated and full of adrenalin can often take a lot of hits. JMHO

You forgot, " an animal poorly hit the first time, can take a lot of hits to finish."

You forgot, " an animal poorly hit the first time, can take a lot of hits to finish." [/quote]

Agreed, but then I consider animals poorly shot to be agitated in the extreme.

I'm well aware of that. Being a "super tough" African animal and all......both myself and my son have shot several (10 or so) aoudad with his 7-08 and core lokt bullets. I was going to make this a point and you screwed it up!

Sorry. I never would have intentionally done that to a fellow Texan.

I just think we have to be careful about getting too negative with any rhetoric that might be used to keep someone from being able to "justify" buying a new rifle.

Just saying.

That was Great!! LMAO

ok seeing as I started this thread and I am an African hunter, I'll bite: What is a Barbary Sheep?

It's no joke. The Barbary sheep are native to the mountains of North africa. We have a large population of this species free range in West Texas. We call the Aoudad down here.

I guess I'm just backwards, I like big rifles. On my plains game hunt I took my 375 H&H and my 300 magnum, I took a springbok and a warthog with my 300 and zebra, kudu, steenbok and gemsbok with the 375. I like the 375 and on my next trip for Buff and plains game all I took is my 375.

My next trip will be with my 375 as my light rifle and my 458 as my heavy.

I hope to go to Africa in the next few years. Call me old school if you want, but my gun of choice for Plains Game would be a Ruger Hawkeye African in 9.3x62. I would think most PH's would approve?

You bet, the 9.3 will make them smile

If I ever had the wherewithal and the desire to hunt Africa, I daresay that I would do pretty much the same as Sharpsguy.

a 9.3 is a super calibre and talk about one gun doing it all , well mostly very good all tehe way up to buffalo , had a european client shoot his first buffalo at 60 yards with his 9.3 ( lung shot ) using a 280 grain that he had made or him in europe and a second just in case in the spine and that was it gameover....

Again it is where you put the bullet that counts , must remeber that ernst van abeslever ( spelling ) hunted for years with a 9.3 very effectively in Mozambique and other places just after the first world war to name one of the big hunting names,

A CALIBRE that has impressed in general for all the plains game and doing it properly is a 338 .... have had clients bring out a 338 / 375 and thats just amazing to see distance with hitting power...

A rifle i found that has all the power and not so much kick and is affordable across the board ( bass pro / cabelas and local gun shops) is the 416 ,, very imnpressive , seen dust fly on the other side of buffalo when they have been administered with a solid through the shoulder and elephant just drop when administered a headache remedy at 30 yards.

As they say the debate continues and hopefully it shall for years to come..

ET, I respect and admire both you and SG for your prowess with the Sharps and the cartridge. I know it will kill anything. That said, the recent incident of a PH killed by a buffalo after a fusilade of bullets, cured me of any possibility of hinting DG with a single shot weapon. jorge

Brother Jorge, I believe that if it is your time,it is your time and it wouldn't matter if you used a Browning M2 cal 50.

I ain't buying that.

As for rifles: in Africa my light is a .375 H&H and the heavy is a 458 Lott. There are many great calibres for hunting. These just happen to be the ones I choose. They cover the waterfront.

Tex, I have seen too much to believe otherwise. Every precaution one could take means absolutely nothing when Schithouse Luck attacks.

Use a bullet of sufficient wieght, SD and construction to get TWO holes. Then use the largest caliber that you can shoot well so that those holes are as big as possible. I also do not want to waste gobs of time on a Safari tracking animals or worse yet losing them and having to pay the trophy fee. Easy as that.

If the biggest thing you can shoot well is a 270, load it with heavy Barnes bullets, TSX or TTSX, and go forth. If you can shoot a 340 WBY well, then load it with good bullets and go hunting.

I am in the camp of African animals having somewhat tougher intestinal fortitude and physiology because there are so many more things there trying to eat them and many more thorns etc. Even if that was not the case, the herd issue and terrian combined with the high cost and rarity of a Safari makes me want to err on the side of bigger holes and TWO of them, every time. Smallest rifle I have ever taken and will ever take is a 300 Weatherby with 180gr TSX's.

I will aquiesce a little and state that I think some of the afircan animals being tougher idea comes form the fact that most African Animals carry thier critical gear further forward and lower than do most animals form here. This makes many hunters shooting "right behind the forleg or shoulder" think that the african animal is immeasurably tougher as it then runs a LONG ways with that not so lethal wound than would a deer that carris its lung right where the hunter aimed.

Well of course an animal is tougher if you don't hit them right and they run off. Early in life I was told how tough pheasants are, yada yada yada, till I figured out that if you put shot in from of them you can kill them with a 410 thou I thought then and still do now, Low base 20 ga and number 6 shot is plenty. Know were to put the bullet and wait for a good shot. It also helps a lot if you know how to shoot in the first place.

You have not shot many pheasants.....

Im pretty solid on the opinion that each case is a world of its own. Ive seen whitetails that didn't quit, but I just think they didn't know they were dead. Not tough. My limed experience gave me a gemsbok, shot running at 60yd. 7mmWSM, 160 TSX. Both shoulders, bullet impacted on bound so nearside humerus fractured and offside shoulder fractured. Should go down ,huh, well no. Strategic impact low in chest cavity, so blood loss not maximal. Animal went somewhat over 1/4 mi with 2broken legs, held itself up and ran with muscles only. Wasn't going a step further when we caught up, but required 2 finishers, hard quarter behind. PH didn't want it facing, Iagreed. Zebra stud , same 160TSX, 130 yd, in the triangle. Jumped 6 ft in air , darted 30yd and game over. PM, 2 1/2- 3" hole in heart, exit about 2" +/- Limited experience 2 toughies, different results. Hope I haven't over stepped

I am off to Zim in August for plains game and buffalo. My rifles will be a .338 Win and a .416 Rem, both loaded down a bit to make more tolerable recoil. While a 30-06 and 375 H&H can be a perfect pairing (one I took on my first trip to South Africa), this time I am going for a little more bullet weight.

Sounds like two good choices to me.

I used a 9,3X74R and a 416 each time, and a cape gun in 8X57JR on one, also.

The 338 is a great all around choice, and in a pinch it will do for buffalo. Nobody really cares, and it does work.

Friend of mine is the head Game Ranger and PH at the Sandveld nature reserve in the N-west. they were out working the ever present jackal problem when they came acros a ill baffalo cow. killed it with one shot to the head with a 308 and 150grn Sierra gameking.

I think that the tougher African game is beside the point. The main reason for using a bigger gun when on safari is the importance of Dead Right There. First, your paying for the game you shoot whether you wound and lose the game or not. Second, how often will you go to Africa on safari? Not many times for most of us and do you want to have to pass up a shot because it's marginal given the gun you have or do you want to have enought gun so that you won't have to pass up on a great animal. Lastly, lots of the animals are in herds that make it hard to track a specific wounded animal. Better off shooting the biggest gun that you can accurately shoot then something that is just capable.

" .338 Win and a .416 Rem, both loaded down a bit to make more tolerable recoil. While a 30-06 and 375 H&H can be a perfect pairing (one I took on my first trip to South Africa), this time I am going for a little more bullet weight."

great choice , both guns admirable and just the right guns to do the job... for plainsgame and buff ,,, good luck and have a blast

I just bought my first 1903 Springfield last week and dusted off my reloading manuals to look at .30-06 loads. I read in one manual that Craig Boddington took his .30-06 to Africa because Teddy Roosevelt did. He killed countless numbers of game with it and as Boddington said, he didn't have the bullets we do now. I'm not going to Africa, but I'd bring my Sako .30-06 with me because it shoots well and I know I can get ammo for it just about anywhere.

I saw a video Peter Capstick did where a client went with him to shoot a leopard. He had brought with him a .30 - 06. Capstick offered him his .375 H&H which the guy gladly accepted. Well, he blew the kitty out of the tree. I don't know if the cat was any more dead. I'd have "06'd" him without a lot of thought on it.

"Who are you calling a kitty?"



This was, when I mentioned Ingwe...

Dude...I hate seeing them from that angle...flashbacks....

Actually his ears aren't laid back, so he's coming to 'play'....

Takes more man than me to "play" with a leopard. Karl Stumpfe comes to mind...

I do doubt that there are to many pictures anywhere in the world from an angle like that in a serious leopard charge...

ingwe, excellent observation, exactly what I saw first when I looked at that photo. There is a huge difference in the entire expression between that leopard and one with the intent to harm.

Once you have seen their "intent to do harm" expression few predators or animals period have a more intimidating look. Only wolves and even coyotes come to mind with an expression that makes you pucker up the same way.

Not many animals have the control over the expressions they display. Bears for example don't have the same intimidating look when aggressive as a leopard or the canines. Nothing covers the first 50 yards of ground faster then a leopard either.

Well put! I can't argue with one word.

And they emit sounds that are not of this world....

Except the " chuffing" one often hears during a charge...as my pard put it, " it will chill your schitt...."

It's been said before,,,,

" When you're in amongst'em , there's no such thing as too much gun !"

Who can remember the recoil of a rifle shot at game. This includes offensive as well as defensive shooting. I remember seeing the sights raise off target momentarily, but never recoil impulse.

It is important to shoot enough beforehand that the anticipation of recoil does not negatively influence the trigger break.

Randy

PS a charging bear does telegrah his intent. I have never faced a leopard, but the pucker power is there when a big bear comes at you to take you down.

Don't tell all the ones I shot with a 7x57 and a 160NP at 2750 fps that they were shot with an inferior rifle. It'll hurt their feelings!

You pays your money, you takes your chances. Hunt with a slingshot if you want to, just be prepared for the greater possibility of less than optimal results.

Actually I have. I remember the recoil and recovering from the recoil the first time I fired my (at the time) light 300 Wby. Not super light, but it was an older pf M70 with the factory stock and tiny pad. I mean the gun didn't hurt me, and I fire it without issue at the range with a t-shirt and putting many rounds through it, but I distinctly remember the crack, the push and coming back down to see the elk in the scope. This could be, because I make a very conscious effort to relax, breath deeply, and focus, trying my hardest to put the adrenaline rush on hold.

The first shot you ever took with this rifle was at a game animal? No sighting in or checking the zero or practicing with it first? Where to begin here....... sigh

Since 1889, no-one could guess the hundreds of thousands of truck loads of game taken with a .303. The problem with old cartridges, is that the young hunters don't know that the animals never changed but the cartridges actually got better. A .303 in 2012 is still a very decent cartridge for 98% of the worlds game, especially if you can hunt, and Tom, I heard you hunt good.

An animal gut shot with a 375 dies slower than one double lunged with an equivalent .308 bullet. A minor flinch will easily move a shot enough to miss vitals. You may not be consciously thinking about recoil while shooting, but your brain remembers. Take a large caliber, but only if you shoot it well.

"But only if you shoot it well"

THAT being the key, combined with a good bullet that will exit, being the be all end all solution right there.

Like I said a couple of pages ago, the Biggest that you can SHOOT WELL, with a deep penetrating premuim bullet. Again, it ain't hard and certainly is not 11 pages worth of ballistic gack worth of hard.

If you are recoil sesitive take a 30/06 with 165gr TTSX's and fill out your whole lineup excepting the biggest four of dangerous game. Why do we make something that is so easy, seem so hard and complicated?

"Why do we make something that is so easy, seem so hard and complicated?"

If it weren't for 20 page threads about calibers and bullets, what else would hunters argue about? :>)