I just read in a thread below, the OP said he shot a "cull" kudu. HOW can you have a "cull" kudu in the "wilds" of Africa. Management animals are taken on high fenced private ranches. Is this what African safari hunting has become? The "hunts" I see on TV are the same, just like hunting a high fenced ranch in Texas. The only thing Africa has is black mambas, Big cats, elephants and baboons, I'll pass on those.

It's just not as pure as it was back in the old days, it seems to me.

Depends greatly upon where one hunts. Most reports posted are of RSA and Namibian game farms/ranches.

Due to population growth and expansion, "back in the old days" are sadly, in general a romantic memory. However, there are still many area's in various African countries that are raw and wild Africa. It will cost considerably more than the African game farm experience..... obviously.

It comes down to the type of hunt you want as was mentioned above. You match it to what you want.
In the good old days (if there is such a thing) opportunities for all did not exist as in today. Everything changes to allow more opportunities to a greater group to experience. This doesn't make it better, but times change.
I remember as a kid growing up in Texas you would see a photo of a 9 pointer in the paper and be envious. To those with a 10 pointer you would be besides yourself and green with envy. Now in Texas with the whitetail industry becoming litteraly an industry a 9 pointer doesn't bring quite the stir it once did. Now they have to have more than 14 points with a drop tine.
You can still get a free range hunt in east Texas for a basket rack 8 but we don't really want the good old days

In Africa game meat can be sold in supermarkets, and is the property of the landowner. I've culled a bunch of animals in Africa, all bound for the marketplace. Some were on high-fenced properties, but many were not. The animals chosen to be culled are sometimes excess females, but more often males with broken or misshapen horns that most safari hunters won't want as trophies.

The size of the fenced areas in much of Africa average much larger than in Texas, though there is some overlap. In most of Namibia and even parts of South Africa quite a few ranches are even free-range, with the only fences low barbed wire that can be easily crossed by wild animals. Half the kudu I've taken in South Africa (including my biggest kudu ever) were taken in unfenced country, and the other half were taken on ranches of at least 50 square miles.

Yeah, there are some small "ranches" in South Africa that are essentially put-and-take shooting zoos. But in Namibia the minimum area that can be fenced is 20 sqare miles, and then its usually done to protect animals they're trying to restore from predators. In 1999 I hunted a pair of ranches in Namibia that had 150 square miles of free-range hunting for warthog, haartebeest, kudu and gemsbok. One of the ranches had a 20-square-mile fenced area for species the country is trying to restore, such as eland, blue wildebeest and springbok.

There are also several countries with totally unfenced wild Africa going for hundreds of miles. Tanzania's Selous Game Reserve, for instance, is six times the size of Yellowstone Park.

No, Africa isn't a pure as it was back in the old days, but it sure as hell isn't Texas.

I have never hunted Texas. I never had the desire to shoot whitetail the size of my dog. I can hunt the bush behind my house and if I am lucky get a shot at the 14 point buck that lives there. The only fence I worry about is the one on the south end of my place that marks the north end of the adjoining property. I have been blessed oveer the years with some spectacular hunts in unspoiled wilderness here in Canada.

Lord willing I would like to go back to Africa with my family because it is as spectacular as anywhere I have been in the world. Every piece of rock, every blade of grass, flower and tree and every wild animal and bird is different than those I know.

When you drive 60 km without seeing any fence save and except stone krhaals built in the 1800's and the animals spook and run when you are a half mile accross the veldt from them, you can be forgiven if you reject the notion it is as if you were hunting Texas.

I hope you gain as much personal awareness during your Texas hunts.

Culling is to decrease excess wild animals on any property in any country. In the old days when there was no fencing natural disasters like droughts, fires and disease took care of excess animal numbers. Today fencing prohibits the free movement of animals in South Africa specifically and fire breaks limit casualties by fire. South African hunters mainly hunt female animals because they are cheaper and any left on quota can be offered to anyone else, like foreign hunters. If a visiting hunter wishes to take back skins of animals that were hunted by themselves then this is the way to do it. Most of this hunting is stopped by July because of pregnancy. Other male animals, like Mule Deer mentioned, with genetic defects or one horn broken can be hunted at some properties at reduced rates.


Yes things change over time and I would wager my bottom dollar things have changed on your side of the water also. Come to think of it, I used to be quite pure myself back in the old days.

Until you have experienced it your "thought" drops like a turd in the good old outhouse.

Stay home, then. Everything changes...

Well, While I agree with most on this thread, Please remember to go hunt in the real woods somewhere up north. We have enough hunters of Texas roots to take care of our "little" deer.
I have hunted in Masai land for buff and plains game. I have also hunted in SA on a high fenced ranch of 100 square miles. Enjoyed both tremendously. I just don't remember cornering a kudu against the fence and having the advantage. Just remember you hunt where you choose and how. When in Rome, you know.

+1

I was hunting cull Springbok in Damaraland last year which is 1.5 million hectares of unspoiled and unfenced wilderness. You can shoot cull animals in wild areas. I have also hunted on game farms in SA and never seen a game fence whilst hunting. Let alone cornered an animal.
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Buzzsaw

If you have the financial means you can take a safari to a country that will provide you a historical safari.

Be prepared to walk or ride a horse from where your ship will dock. It could take you a month or longer to get to your hunting block. Is this the good old days you are talking about. They made about 5 to 10 miles a day in there travels to the hunting grounds.

Let your PH know your exceptions to have the porters available to carry your luggage and safari gear. Water and food will have to be ported for everyone in your hunting party.

Even if Africa was highfenced, it is still a better value to me than a lot of Texas hunts. My dollar will go further.

Let me be very frank. Most local south african hunters see overseas hunters that visit our land as inferior hunters. Local hunters
dont need or use a ph, thus they see a hunter that does use a ph as a dependant hunter. A term that is somewhat deregatory. Mentioning kudu seems a bit silly. The kudu is one of the last free roaming game in Africa.

So, do I view foreighn hunters as inferior. No. Why? Becuase I have hunted with more than enough to know that it is not true. Still keep in mind that more than 90% of game taken in RSA and Namibia anualy, are taken by white local hunters. These hunters dont know 2 things about foreighn hunter and they dont care. This is their land and they do as they please on their farms, of which a free roaming kudu is still the top prize for most.

I suppose a lot of it depends on how one defines the "old" days.

After all, one could take up a sharpened stick and trot around barefoot in a loincloth most anywhere in Africa - or anywhere on the planet for that matter, and have a "pure" hunting experience.

Allen

I have hunted Texas multiple times including fence meat "hunts" in the Hill Country and some really fun nilgai spot and stalk hunts in Kenedy county.

I have also hunted dangerous game and plainsgame in Tanzania (once), Mozambique (once), and Zimbabwe (four times).

For me the "Golden Age" in Africa is now. It is MY time to hunt there. I savor every moment on safari.

There is no comparison to hunting in Texas. I have been in some wild and remote places in Africa that we never saw another human being. I have hunted in other places near villages that to me added to the experience. Like in the old books we would go to different villages and ask if they have heard leopard, seen any big buffalo tracks, etc.

I have seen just about every species indigenous to the areas I hunt. We have listened to the lion and hyena at night. I have been charged by elephants and buffalo. we have enjoyed seeing all the species of birds and insects. We are still amazed with the flora.

Africa is not for everybody. If being among big cats and elephants along with the other wonders of sub-sahara Africa does not interest you, save your money and go to Texas.

I have only been to Africa once. I have only been to Texas twice. I am not an expert on either place. All three experiences were different. Two were wonderful and one was terrible (first one in TX). If you don't want to go to Africa, fine. Hunt TX. If you want to visit Africa, I would do it. I plan on going back to both ! They are entirely different places and the hunting in each, pretty different.

I couldn't have said it any better...

I know it doesn't compare to Texas and if i could spend $25,000+++ on a hunting trip to Africa I would surely love the experience. If I could go, I would want to do it all, big 6.

One thing still bothers me, go back up these threads and look at the avitars. Medicine man has a very nice Gemsbock on the ground. Does that picture look like Africa, is the Medicine man dressed for a Safari??? somethings fishey there

Paul 375, nice pictures come to West Texas, I'll show you the same scenery, only mountain Lions though, no King of Beast here.

STOP, Wait a minute, I'm such a dick. I just posted a thread stating "we", all shooters must stick together to fight what is heading our way to try and stop us from doing what we love. And A__ hole me is bagging on Afarica and the people who hunt there. I'm such a hypocrite and I ask for your forgiveness.

how about it guys...it is Christmas ya know???!!!

Really. How would you want to judge anyone on his clothing? You wear what you are comfortable wearing. Medicman is one of the very respected participants on this forum.

You obviously have a very tainted view of hunting in Africa and if you can find a $ 25 000 dangerous 6 hunt anyhere in Africa I would be one of the first prospective takers.

How bout you put $ 5 000 up for a hunt so you can see what it's all about.

Even my safari outfit of shorts, knee high socks, pith helmet with leopard skin band, monocle and long stemmed pipe?

Buzzsaw,
Africa is a truly wonderful experiance, and somthing you should try. If finance is holding you back, then maybe think of a management hunt, and maybe go on a 2+1. I will put my hand on my heart and say that after you have got back from Africa , you will be planning your next trip. It gets in your blood.
Like every where in the world, you get good people and bad people. There are some PH's I would never use againg, and some that I have become great friends with and that stay with me when they visit the UK.
I have seen and hunted some wonderful parts over the years,Like Limpopo, Natal, Damaraland,Etosha, Bushmanland , all very different. To be walking in the bush with your rifle over your shoulder and come onto Ele's and Rhino, is incredable. Once came onto a Black Rhino in Limpopo. It had charged some Itialians the week before, and they had to climb a tree. The PH, said look for a tree you can climb...the only thing was, nothing was thicker than 2".
My best trip was last year in Namibia, and that was too see my kids take cull Springboks, and my oldest girl, 12 take a cull Kudu. That was very special for me the look on her face after she shot a Kudu with a .303!.
Texas, its a place I would truly love to visit. It looks a very stunning place.Also interested in the history , would love to visit the Alamo.
May take you up on that!
As for Africa, don't let it pass you by, start planning a trip!
Cheers,
Paul.

Yep, fully agree with you on that one Pieter!
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I put this through Google Translator and got this:

Google Translator - Sourgrapes to English

"I have never been to Africa, so I am high envious of those of you who have. Instead of sharing the experience vicariously with you, or planning my own trip there, I have chosen to chitt on your parade. Africa sucks. Your rifles suck. You all suck. If it ain't from Texas, then it ain't chitt. Because none of you go on 3 month safaris out of contact with the modern world and die of malaria or Blackwater fever, you are all puzzies. [bleep] your black mamba and the elephant you rode in on. Have a nice day."

LMAO Hatari......!

Jeff, you forget the other "whinne celebre" of the pocket T shirt crowd; if you don't DIY (pay to hunt), you ain't schitt...

actually ive been reading bout modern DIY African hunts lately can be done....as much as i want to hunt Africa and cant afford it even this route i wouldnt go.....the guy that does it, and has done it over 25 times in the rainforests of Cameroon is freaking nuts

I read about that dude in The Cameroons. That would be neat and still doable, the only issue are the bands of heavily armed poachers and militia out there.

absolutely neat but my French is sorely lacking.....that and the guy is a freaking top notch athlete for the amount of miles he would slog in that heat and humidity.....ild be dead the first day....add to teh fact you dont see the forest elephant and buffalo or even gorillas until bout the time they touch the end of the gun barrel and your ticker needs to be in top notch working order....im real glad he took the time to write down his experiences, its now one of my favorite books...

A-freaking-men to that! I've been there. Without outfitters, the PH's and especially the pygmy trackers, I'd still be there. Probably 6' under from stepping on a Black Forest Cobra (saw them) or ripped in two by a gorilla (saw them), or attacked and pummeled by a troop of [bleep] (considered dangerous by the pygmies.)

But I'm a wimp. After all, it's just like Texas, so I hear.

What is the name of the book & author that did the DIY Cameroon hunts?

Thanks in advance,

Allen

"Elephant, Buffalo & Bongo" by Reinald von Meurers......he also wrote a few chapters for Terry Cacek's "Solo Safari"

This past May, my wife and I went to the Eastern Cape Region of South Africa and hunted with KMG Hunting Safaris, owned by Marius Goosen. Let me tell you- that while there may be some fences, you will literally be on property much larger than that you've ever experienced in the United States, short of Alaska. Perhaps I was just lucky to be hunting with someone who could put me on such properties, but at one point, we were glassing on top of a ridge and my PH said, "There! Do you see the Gemsbok?" I looked at him as though he was screwing with me, as we literally could see to the horizon in ever direction and it was all the "farm's" property, with no animals in sight to my eye, even through 10x binoculars. I replied that I had no idea where he was talking about and he replied they were AT the horizon. Still on the property, of course.

This was no where near the end of the "farm" but let me tell you, fences don't mean a damn thing, except to keep those out who would rather help themselves to your land, including both two-legged and four-legged vermin. To those who claim hunting plains game in Africa is like hunting in a fenced-in farm, then I pity you for not vetting your outfitter better!

-John

Hi John,
The whole fence thing is a matter of perspective. Some properties are small (1000HA) and some as you state your experience are huge and the fences play no role at all. I took my wife for her first safari to a game farm in Mazabuka, Zambia, the place was huge, saw the fences at times but as long as they never play a role in the hunting what real cognitive difference does it make. I have seen the same animals in the same place's day after day after day in Zambia (Luangwa Valley), Botswana, CAR. those animals were obviously not fenced in.

Just perceptions are different.

Thanks for the reminder on the name. I agree it was one of my favorite reads. I especially thought his 460 Wby idea was brilliant with the heavy and light loads. He had a reduced chamber 460 cart made to hold a pistol cartridge insert? He wanted a real stopper for dg and a soft report for smaller game. Don't remember the details. He was/is a terrific planner.

Agree it was different than any Texas hunts I have seen

As the curtain prepares to close on my 58th year of hunting Texas whitetail and other specie, I feel blessed to have but one fourteen day period in Zimbabwe to compare the two. Hands down Texas is not near as large or have near the diversity of animals as even a small sliver of Africa AND believe it or not no where close to the number of miles of "high fence" as does Africa! Although I spend two or three weeks in the field during whitetail season it has been six long years since I have put one "on the wall". In that same period of time one trip to NWT put a Mtn Caribou/moose on the wall, Alaska a brown bear and Africa eight lovely creatures including sable and cape buffalo. So, trophy whitetail in Texas is just not the pushover many would have us believe. Cost, the six years of hunting whitetail about $50-$60K and the combined cost of the three wonderful "out of state" hunts about the same. So 11:0 the odds are with Africa, NWT and Alaska! But hey come on down to S. Texas we would love to have you visit.

"Let me be very frank. Most local south african hunters see overseas hunters that visit our land as inferior hunters. Local hunters dont need or use a ph, thus they see a hunter that does use a ph as a dependant hunter. A term that is somewhat deregatory. Mentioning kudu seems a bit silly. The kudu is one of the last free roaming game in Africa."

I was fortunate to have hunted many times without the assistance of a professional hunter on properties owned by friends in several South African provinces (as well as Botswana's Tuli Block) before South Africa passed what I prefer to call its "Outfitter Protection Act."

By law, foreigners now must be accompanied by licensed professional hunters and the government has set standards for the food, services, vehicles, and accommodations that are provided for us. Any friend who owns a farm and loans us a rifle, a baakie, and a farm employee to drive that baakie, and asks us to go out and collect venison for a braai would be subject to prosecution under that law -- and so would we if we did what he asked.

IMO, many local hunters in South Africa would have trouble hunting by themselves or with one or two South African friends in our Rocky Mountain West. They are not accustomed to our rugged terrain, high altitudes, vast wilderness areas, relative scarcity of game, and having other hunters in the same area. They also have grown used to others doing menial things for them, such as gathering firewood, setting up and tearing down camps, and gutting, packing out, and caring for their game.

As for kudu being one of the last free-roaming game animal in Africa, the poster obviously was talking about South Africa and not the many other countries on that continent. Unfortunately, not all kudu offered to foreign hunters are free-ranging in South Africa. A small industry has grown up that specializes in capturing, selling, and moving large antelopes (including kudu, eland, waterbuck, nyala, gemsbok, wildebeest, etc.), lion and rhino to hunting farms.

As for Africa being like Texas, it depends. Hunting of closely managed herds behind high fences is done mostly in South Africa, parts of Namibia, and on only a very few properties in Zambia and Zimbabwe. Game moves freely in the majority of the game fields of Namibia, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Tanzania, and nearly every other African country.

Bill Quimby

When I made the decision to go to South Africa, the outfitter asked me what I wanted from my trip. I told him I wanted to see the country and experience what South Africa was like. I wanted to meet the people, see the land, and hunt birds, mostly. When I made my two trips there, and I had the option of staying in a hunting lodge or staying with South Africans in their homes, guess which option I took? They are great folks, those South Africans.

I saw Northern Cape, Free State and Eastern Cape, I hunted rock pigeons, Egyptian geese, and guinea fowl. And I discovered plains game hunting that put a hurt on my body with many busted stalks. I've taken kudo, wildebeest, steinbok, duiker, impala and other great animals. I've seen puff adders up close, too. My clothes are tattered from acacia shrubs and I wear them today like a proud uniform.

Now I've been to Texas, too, and stayed with Texans in their homes, they're great people. I've hunted morning and white-winged doves, quail, whitetail deer, and feral hogs. I've seen a lot of rattlesnakes and stepped in cactus that hurt and shredded my boots.

Since I've been to both places, hunted as I did, experienced what I did, guess which one I want to go back and see again? Would I rather hunt a 6-7" steinbok or a 5x5 whitetail? No contest.

If you haven't been there, well, go or quit trolling.

Bill I am unsure of which province you are talking about, but certainly by definition a client is someone not normally residing within the boundaries of South Africa. If you have no desire to hunt a trophy animal or have any parts of that animal exported then you are merely hunting venison. As far as I am aware there is no harm in that...just do not shoot your driver by accident or otherwise!

I wish we could get rid of the few who do the hunting industry in South Africa plenty damage with put and take and other methods.

Pieter:

I hunted alone and sometimes with a friend -- but without a professional hunter -- on farms near Kimberley, Vaalwater, Alldays, Durban, and Taneen (sp?) in the 1980s. I was able to export any non-CITES animal I wanted to ship home.

Those wonderful experiences ended when what I call South Africa's "Outfitter Protection Act" was passed. I'm fairly certain it requires any foreigner who hunts anything -- and not just exportable trophies -- to possess a contract with a licensed outfitter and be accompanied by a PH at all times while hunting.

Also, as you know, any foreigner who possesses a firearm in South Africa without proper paperwork now is subject to prosecution. I believe anyone who loans us a rifle also risks prosecution.

Bill Quimby

Morning Bill

The 1980's were interesting years in our history. Yes it is a sad fact that a loaner rifle has to be used under the direct supervision of the person in whose name the rifle is licensed. There are some exceptions but it will take up way too much band width to discuss it.

Changes to our legislation many times are inspired by what happens in foreign countries. Warthogs used to be shipped together with all the other trophies. Now they are shipped in a separate crate so if there is a problem with the paperwork its only the warthog that gets sent back. A group of hunters used to ship their trophies in a single crate and that was stopped. Both because of restrictions by the USF&W. Warthog have never been CITES listed so you could have exported them direct but because of the new regulations that's part of history now.

I scanned through my Limpopo legislation documents and could not find anything that specifically stated any foreigner must be accompanied by an SA PH at all times. I may still be wrong, but if I had a ranch and you were visiting and I needed camp meat I would ask you to collect it and legally there would not be a problem if the firearms laws are adhered to. These firearm laws are appliccable to anyone, not just foreigners.

The Outfitter Protection Act as you refer to it would most likely be to reserve South African jobs for South Africans. This clearly states that nobody who is not a South African citizen, or who is not in possession of a working visa, may be paid for working in South Africa. We as outfitters cannot be protected by any act or law if we break any other law. I am sure you have similar acts but I am no specialist when it comes to US laws or history.

You hunted some of the most beautiful parts of the country. Tzaneen is home to Queen Modjaji, the Rain Queen, whom I believe is the only queen in the world who has wives.

Have you been back since then sir?

"Have you been back since then sir?"

Yes, many times. My last trip was in 2009. I visited friends in Waterkloof and Vaalwater en route to Namibia, where I helped a client with his memoirs. That trip was my 22nd to southern Africa.

I was 73 then and I travelled from Tucson to Johannesburg with only one brief stop for a plane change in Florida. If I ever return to your part of the world, I'll make certain to rest up in Miami, New York or Dallas, and again in London, Madrid or Frankfort when going down and coming back.

Bill Quimby

Back to the OP, just love dudes that espouse over crap they don't know schmitt about....give me a break.


maddog

Wow, good going. Hope to see you next time.