I don't like to post threads from other websites, but I hope that the administrators will understand the seriousness of the issue and allow me to do so:

http://www.africahunting.com/threads/new-usa-requirements-in-addition-to-the-form-4457.21576/

Apparently, the Obama administration, in response to the "fast and furious" debacle, has now come up with "new" means to combat crime....by writing ridiculous laws that are impossible to comply with. Passed in mid Feb and scheduled to take place on April 3rd, this will impact anyone traveling out of the country who hunts with a firearm. While they tout it as "free", it's impossible to comply with.....so EVERYONE will be unable to obey the law (for example, you have to "show" your gun to a CBP officer prior to leaving the country from your port of origin (for most of us, that Atlanta)....yet when you check your luggage, that's the last you see of it until it arrives in Joburg.
Some folks have even talked to CBP agents, and even they don't really understand it (see the thread).

The United STates just became the United Kingdom when it comes to flying with firearms! HOpefully anyone here headed to Africa this year will not end up in prison from our well intentioned "leaders"
.....what a bunch of stupid rat bastards!

Count me in.

I just spoke with a CBP agent this afternoon and she did not indicate that there was any problem. I just have to take my rifles, scopes, binoculars, etc to their office out side of Pittsburgh, fill out the forms, including S/Ns and good to go.

This too shall pass...I hope!

donsm70

I don't see how you can call them "stupid", they are accomplishing exactly what they intended.

Similar to firearm transfers and shipping "policies", they are limiting the mobility of firearms. It becomes much easier to confiscate materials that don't move.

I wonder if the new requirement reduces the value of my .375 H&H?

What garbage. Can't Congress get rid of this?

They're working on it as soon as they find they're balls first!

It becomes more important to find out what your PH/outfitter has available to rent...

Yup, Obama and Holder don't want anyone cutting in on their supplying guns to bad guys in other countries!

Boehner and McConnell have them in a lock box!

What is CBP?

Its customs. And form 4457 is not new, it is a form to show as proof that items (not just firearms) were purchased in the US, so you don't have to pay customs. You can do this anywhere, to show you own and took it with you and didn't pick it up overseas and are pretending you always owned it.

When are you going? The new rule doesn't take effect until April 3rd......hopefully, you will be back in the states before then; otherwise, the CBP can jail you and take your firearms and fine you.....

Did you even read the info in the link? Yes, form 4457 is not new, but now there are NEW rules in place that require more paperwork which is next to impossible to figure out (even some in Customs are saying they don't understand it....yet they are suppose to enforce it!). In addition, there are several countries that you are now not allowed to do "business" with......you are not allowed to take firearms to Zimbabwe, for example. The government may (or may not!) allow you to take your rifles to that country to hunt....it will be done on a case by case basis. Who makes these determinations? What happens when you spend a load of money for a hunt and all the sudden the Feds decided you can't take your firearms for political B.S.?
If you hunt Africa (or anywhere else in the world), the time to get off you collective asses is NOW and write your representatives to get this nonsense stopped! Otherwise, your prized firearms will just be sitting in you gun safe collecting DUST!!!

I got a email from my travel agent about this yesterday...

I fly to Turkey with a rifle tomorrow, but I will be back by April fools day, so no worries I'm hoping.

Let me know how that works when they take your gun, scope and Binos, jail and fine you, because you only filled out the customs form and did not comply with the UN small arms treaty exemption. Good luck.

Let's please keep this topic open with fresh information as it comes available. It could be a big deal, and anyone who travels to hunt may be affected. A friends is headed to Zim soon and is on pins and needles. Accurate information the best thing in this case, over and above political wrangling.

Here are a couple of links.

First, take the "quiz" here. Click on the blue "Take the Firearms in Checked Baggage Determination Quiz"

Take the quiz and you will be taken here.

You'll have to figure it out from there since this is where it gets messy.

OK, here's the messy part.

Electronic Code of Federal Regulations

e-CFR Data is current as of March 19, 2015

Title 22 → Chapter I → Subchapter M → Part 123 → §123.17

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Title 22: Foreign Relations
PART 123—LICENSES FOR THE EXPORT AND TEMPORARY IMPORT OF DEFENSE ARTICLES
§123.17 Exports of firearms, ammunition, and personal protective gear.

(a) Port Directors of U.S. Customs and Border Protection shall permit the export without a license of:

(1) Parts and components for USML Category I(a) firearms, except barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), or complete breech mechanisms, when the total value does not exceed $100 wholesale in any transaction, except to any of the countries or entities as provided in §126.1 of this subchapter;

(2) Parts, components, accessories, or attachments for USML Category I firearms, except barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames), complete breech mechanisms, or fully automatic firearms and parts and components for such firearms, when:

(i) The total value does not exceed $500 wholesale in any transaction;

(ii) The export is to Canada for end-use in Canada or return to the United States, or temporary import into the United States of Canadian-origin items and return to Canada for a Canadian citizen; and

(iii) The exporter makes a declaration via the Automated Export System, pursuant to §123.22(a) of this subchapter, and the exporter is eligible to export under this exemption, pursuant to §120.1(c) of this subchapter; or

(3) Parts, components, accessories, or attachments for USML Category I firearms, including fully automatic firearms and parts and components for such firearms, when:

(i) The total value does not exceed $500 wholesale in any transaction;

(ii) The export is to Canada for end-use by the Canadian Federal Government, a Canadian Provincial Government, or a Canadian Municipal Government; and

(iii) The exporter makes a declaration via the Automated Export System, pursuant to §123.22(a) of this subchapter, and the exporter is eligible to export under this exemption, pursuant to §120.1(c) of this subchapter.

(b) Port Directors of U.S. Customs and Border Protection shall permit the export without a license of nonautomatic firearms covered by Category I(a) of §121.1 of this subchapter if they were manufactured in or before 1898, or are replicas of such firearms.

(c) Port Directors of U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) shall permit U.S. persons to export temporarily from the United States without a license not more than three nonautomatic firearms in Category I(a) of §121.1 of this subchapter and not more than 1,000 cartridges therefor, provided that:

(1) The person declares the articles to a CBP officer upon each departure from the United States, presents the Internal Transaction Number from submission of the Electronic Export Information in the Automated Export System per §123.22 of this subchapter, and the articles are presented to the CBP officer for inspection;

(2) The firearms and accompanying ammunition to be exported is with the individual's baggage or effects, whether accompanied or unaccompanied (but not mailed); and

(3) The firearms and accompanying ammunition must be for that person's exclusive use and not for reexport or other transfer of ownership. The person must declare that it is his intention to return the article(s) on each return to the United States. The foregoing exemption is not applicable to the personnel referred to in §123.18 of this subchapter.

(d) Port Directors of U.S. Customs and Border Protection shall permit a foreign person to export without a license such firearms in Category I(a) of §121.1 of this subchapter and ammunition therefor as the foreign person brought into the United States under the provisions of 27 CFR 478.115(d). (The latter provision specifically excludes from the definition of importation the bringing into the United States of firearms and ammunition by certain foreign persons for specified purposes.)

(e) Port Directors of U.S. Customs and Border Protection shall permit U.S. persons to export without a license ammunition for nonautomatic firearms referred to in paragraph (a) of this section if the quantity does not exceed 1,000 cartridges (or rounds) in any shipment. The ammunition must also be for personal use and not for resale or other transfer of ownership. The foregoing exemption is also not applicable to the personnel referred to in §123.18.

(f) Port Directors of U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) shall permit U.S. persons to export temporarily from the United States without a license one set of body armor covered by U.S. Munitions List Category X(a)(1), which may include one helmet covered by U.S. Munitions List Category X(a)(6), or one set of chemical agent protective gear covered by U.S. Munitions List Category XIV(f)(4), which may include one additional filter canister, provided:

(1) The person declares the articles to a CBP officer upon each departure from the United States, presents the Internal Transaction Number from submission of the Electronic Export Information in the Automated Export System (AES) per §123.22 of this subchapter, and the articles are presented to the CBP officer for inspection;

(2) The body armor, which may include a helmet, or chemical agent protective gear, which may include one additional filter canister, to be exported is with the individual's baggage or effects, whether accompanied or unaccompanied (but not mailed); and

(3) The body armor, which may include a helmet, or chemical agent protective gear, which may include one additional filter canister, to be exported is for that person's exclusive use and not for reexport or other transfer of ownership. The person must declare it is his intention to return the article(s) to the United States at the end of tour, contract, or assignment for which the articles were temporarily exported.

(g) The license exemption set forth in paragraph (f) of this section is available for the temporary export of body armor or chemical agent protective gear for personal use to countries listed in §126.1 of this subchapter provided:

(1) The conditions in paragraph (f) of this section are met; and

(2) The person is affiliated with the U.S. Government traveling on official business or is traveling in support of a U.S. Government contract. The person shall present documentation to this effect, along with the Internal Transaction Number for the AES submission, to the CBP officer.

(h) The license exemption set forth in paragraph (f) of this section is available for the temporary export of body armor, which may include a helmet, or chemical agent protective gear, which may include one additional filter canister, for personal use to Iraq, provided the conditions in paragraph (f) are met, and the person is either affiliated with the U.S. Government traveling on official business or is traveling in support of a U.S. Government contract, or is traveling to Iraq under a direct authorization by the Government of Iraq and engaging in activities for, on behalf of, or at the request of, the Government of Iraq. The person shall present documentation to this effect, along with the Internal Transaction Number for the AES submission, to the CBP officer. Documentation regarding direct authorization from the Government of Iraq shall include an English translation.

(i) The license exemption set forth in paragraph (f) of this section is available for the temporary export of body armor, which may include a helmet, or chemical agent protective gear, which may include one additional filter canister, for personal use to Afghanistan, provided the conditions in paragraph (f) are met.

(j) If the articles temporarily exported pursuant to paragraphs (c) and (f) through (i) of this section are not returned to the United States, a detailed report must be submitted to the Office of Defense Trade Controls Compliance in accordance with the requirements of §127.12(c)(2) of this subchapter.

(k) To use the exemptions in this section, individuals are not required to be registered with the Department of State (the registration requirement is described in part 122 of this subchapter). All other entities must be registered and eligible, as provided in §§120.1(c) and (d) and part 122 of this subchapter.

[58 FR 39299, July 22, 1993, as amended at 64 FR 17534, Apr. 12, 1999; 70 FR 50962, Aug. 29, 2005; 71 FR 20541, Apr. 21, 2006; 74 FR 39213, Aug. 6, 2009; 77 FR 25867, May 2, 2012; 78 FR 40631, July 8, 2013]

I heard you can rent a hunting rifle from your PH . . .

I just received an "ALERT" from SCI with regard to this issue. It is something that we will have to follow. I guess I should not have taken the word of the CBP agent that I spoke with a week ago.

donsm70

You normally can, but somehow that is just not the same.

donsm70

You can take a taxi to a car rental outfit to rent a car to get you to the airport, so you don't need to own a car.

You can rent a seat on an airplane to get you to your destination, so you don't obviously don't need an airplane.

You can rent a room in a motel once you get there until your PH takes you to the hunting area, so you don't need to buy a house or apartment in some foreign country.

Geez, it's all working out.

However, after saving for years to purchase a rifle or two for just such an occasion, weeks or months on load development and practice, why would I want to leave my firearms at home so I can rent something I'm not familiar with simply because of bureaucratic bullşit implemented with no other purpose than to make it as difficult as possible to bring my own firearms?

Especially if one has the intention of returning several times or has already been there and has already planned a return trip with their own firearms.

For that matter, why don't we all just sell our firearms and rent those we want to use when we feel like going hunting or out for a target practice day? Great plan.

Well, I've hunted SA with the outfitters rifle, and Namibia with my rifle. I intend to hunt Namiba again this year with my rifle. If it doesn't work out, then I'll use the outfitters rifle again. I really want to use my own, but it will take nothing away from the experience if I don't. Namibia is a great place, and if it means hunting with the outfitters rifle then that's OK by me.

This BS law does piss me off though. Steve Turner at TWG has assured me if this does become enforceable this time, he will secure the "new" permit for me.

Yup.....Obama said he "wasn't going after our hunting rifles"....guess it's just semantics; he isn't actually "taking them", just keeping us from "using them".

Well put my money where my mouth is and wrote and called my congress woman and my senator Elise Stefanik and Kristen Gilliabrand . Elise got right back and Kristen sent me a form letter I didn't bother with Chuck shummer. He hates hunters and Gun owners, I urge everyone to do the same. I leave in Sept so I have Time. This law serves no purpose other then taking away from law abiding Hunters. Ps I had to drive 200 miles to get my 4457 I'm sure there are a lot of us out there

It wouldn't float my boat. I've never Safaried but I imagine half the fun of it is practicing with your chosen Safari rifle in the months leading up to said Safari.

I just received a return call from the Helena, MT BATF. I have posed the question regarding the new regulations and his advice was to take my 4457 forms that were filled out at the Kalispell, MT C&BP. He made reference to a form 57, not informed what this may be. He cautioned us to take all forms and other gear that we plan to take to RSA. This should take place this week and will post any information I may glean from C&BP. MTG

This is exactly my point. I have been working up hand loads and practicing with my .338 Win Mag, 9.3x62 and .416 Rigby for RSA Cape Buffalo and Namibia Plains Game most of the winter. I'm not going until July/August, so hopefully this crap will be resolved by then.

donsm70

It's another way the Govt knows what you have.

The latest:

ICE UNFREEZES RULE THAT AFFECTS HUNTERS GOING ABROAD . . . U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) appears to have started enforcing a three-year old regulation that could have a serious impact on the hunting community. Under a requirement that has not been enforced since it was imposed in 2012, Americans travelling overseas with a firearm must file paperwork using the government's Automated Export System (AES) to register the "temporary export" of any firearm. The problem, which NSSF was the first to flag back in 2012, is that individual hunters cannot become certified by AES in order to file the necessary paperwork and obtain the required documentation that Customs is now requiring at the port of departure. With no national security purpose underlying this long-dormant requirement, NSSF is working toward a repeal of the regulation and will discuss the major concerns with State Department officials during a meeting this week.

I certainly hope that the NSSF can get this nonsense reversed....I'm more than just a little disappointed with the NRA and their concern/handling of this issue.....I guess AR15s matter more than hunter's firearms nowadays.

Renting a rifle from your PH to hunt with is like taking a strange woman instead of your wife as a companion on a safari.


Oh wait! That didn't come out right!

I don't know how they are going to get this reversed any time soon, as this is the result of an Executive Order.

In the mean time, I guess folks will have to either (1) rely on a Customs Broker to complete the paperwork for you, or (2)sweet talk the CBP officer into manually entering the info into the computer database.

Don & all,
You are right, its not the same. However,I have not taken a firearm overseas in my last 6 trips. Too much hassle, expense and that gun sometimes is a boat anchor if you want to just play tourist after your hunt. Most firearms they give you are top shelf. Just ask. I have been handed rifles and shotguns I drool over in the advertising. Some places even let you use rifles and ammo for free, some ask you to pay for the ammo or buy it and leave what's left in the box. A few years back I learned (yes, the hard way) that taking a rifle and shotgun to a "hunter friendly" country ended up costing me more than the rifle had new and it's a nice rifle. Never again. More and more anti-gun, anti-hunter bull%#&* Just saying.
ODS

I have planned a trip to Quebec in May for bear.

Since this involves a rule change, I have called my congressman's office for help with this. Other hunters facing this problem should do likewise.

Moderator - I would like to suggest this be moved where it will get more exposure on the board.

These new requirements aren't just Africacentric. They affect and effect ALL hunting/sporting/target/competitive shooting firearms being temporarily taken out and back - period.

This includes just driving across the boarder to Canada and Mexico,

This needs maximum exposure and maximum actions and activity for anyone.

Actually, flying out of the UK with normal hunting firearms is relatively easy. In addition to your Firearm Certificate, the only Government paperwork at our end you need is a Temporary Export Permit from the Dept Trade and Industry if IIRC..When I applied for mine it was a couple of forms to fill in and the Permit came through in about 10 days..I even think it was free..

If your taking a firearm into Europe there is also a European Firearm Pass which again is a relatively painless process..

Hardest part is the Airline personnel which sometimes don't know (or claim not to know) the law/company rules but even they are usually not to difficult to deal with if you're clued up on the situation before flying..

I too have a Canadian bear hunt coming up in June. This certainly looks to be a PITA. I got my EIN and registered for AES Direct.

Of course filling out the form looks like it takes a Ph.D and one always has to worry that you will do it wrong and not find out until your at the border.

This is yet another hurdle where an official of some sort can either be ignorant of their own rules or interpret some detail against you when time is critical and your resources are far away at home causing you to miss out on a expensive hunt.

Can a guide in Canada even loan a rifle to a client?

Good question, you should phone RCMP Firearms, 1-800-731-4000 and ask what the policy is.

Foreigners, including Americans, are allowed to possess Canadian Possession and Acquisition Licences, IIRC, and the above people can assist with this, should you be interested.

Some US hunters actually just leave a rifle in Canada at a friend's or relative's place or with a trusted GO.....this is the best option, IMO.

Obama and his ilk are just vile, but, we have plenty of the same kind here in The Great White North.