Home
Both Hemingway and Ruark immortalized their first safarii's in books that endure today. The Green Hills of Africa and Horn of the Hunter are two of my favorite books of any sort.

If you had the chance - and a time machine- which one would you have liked to have been on? Pre WWII Hemingway or post WWII Ruark?

I think I would pick to Ruark's safari over Hemingway's first. The post war had better transportation, and the game was still good. Some of the locals were still as they had been for eons, and others had enough of the 20th Century in them to be useful. It would be tough to past up spending 8 weeks or so with Hemingway, I must admit.

For those who have read both books, what do you think?
With Harry Selby and Ruark for sure, the pure innocence and humility of them both would make for a very relaxing yet educational trip, Ruark's appreciation for the game he took is refreshing, especially by today's standards,.

Hemingway had an arrogance to him, like so much of his success was some how owed him. For whom the bell tolls was a better read in my mind.
Hell,,, pre WWI!!! With Burnham!!!!!

Or even Selous!!!
If I go by the books, Ruark without question.
Ruark wins with me by a mile.
Ruark by a mile. Love his work but Hemingway just seems like he would be a mean drunk and not someone I would want to share a tent with for a couple months. Ruark on the other hand sounds like he would be fun to share a camp with
Ruark, although Martin and Osa Johnson back in the '20s and '30s would beat them both.

Martin and Osa Johnson

Originally Posted by hatari
Both Hemingway and Ruark immortalized their first safarii's in books that endure today. The Green Hills of Africa and Horn of the Hunter are two of my favorite books of any sort.

For those who have read both books, what do you think?


I admit, with due guilt, that I have not read Hemingway's account. I have, however, read Horn of the Hunter.

Ruark's account of his time with Selby makes me jealous every time I read it. I was likewise jealous when I read DocRocket's account of his first safari.

There is a certain "wonder" that the first timer will have to have. Both Ruark and DocRocket did a stellar job of wrapping words around that feeling.

Ruark's experience, however is from a time that I have always wished I could have lived.

I haven't read Hemmingway either; just excerpts of the book.

I have read Horn of the Hunter at least once a year since I was a teenager (maybe it is an average of those years). In fact, I am planning reading it next week on vacation.

Just civilized enough I could take it and much wilder than it is today. What a time.

KC
Originally Posted by hatari
If you had the chance - and a time machine- which one would you have liked to have been on? Pre WWII Hemingway or post WWII Ruark?


I know it's not what you asked, but I'd pick pre-WWI: with Teddy Roosevelt.
I can't imagine anything could top the Ruark/Selby trip.
Originally Posted by postoak
Ruark, although Martin and Osa Johnson back in the '20s and '30s would beat them both.

Martin and Osa Johnson



Bride of the Solomon's was too wild for me!
I would have had to fight Hemingway and may have got lucky and won. What would that have done to his legacy? I would say it be better with Ruark.
I would have liked to go to Africa with Elmer Keith. Ruark and Hemingway might be able to drink but it sure would be fun to see that tough little cowboy kick ass.
Almost everybody wanted Hemingway to like them. So I would go with Papa.

Ruark was mostly just a drunk by the sound of it, to the point that it killed him young, and even Selby had issues with him in later years. Ruark was too much of a Hemingway wannabe.

I think less of both books than those who have mentnioed them here - Green Hills of Africa I am not in a hurry to reread, with all the talk about literary gossip of forgotten writers from the 1930's, and Horn of the Hunter was a book about a man who wasn't much of a hunter beforehand, who went on a guided hunt to emulate Hemingway as far as I can tell, complete with gratuitous mentioning of his own war record to manly himself up etc.

I would rather go with Walter Bell, a man who must have been genuinely likable, to have gotten away with as much as he did. He was a true hunter and adventurer, on year long safaris into parts of Africa where white men didn't usually go.

A little perspective while we consider this question - remember Hemingway and Ruark were professional writers first and foremost, Hemingway of fiction and Ruark a magazine writer, and not big game hunters.
Ruark without a doubt. I was a victim as a young child of a Grandfather who passed Ruark on to me so I was biased early.

Later reading Hemingway I appreciated it but it couldn't displace Ruark.

The best part about Safaris of the day wasn't the amount of game and the price, it was the "gone to Africa" length of the Safari and the isolation from the modern world.

Reading Ruark Remembered really kind of pissed me off at him. Such a talent ended so early by drink (no teetotaler myself but all things in moderation!)
Of the two in the OP, Ruark by a mile based upon the accounts of their trip and for the reason Pugs just state - the "gone to Africa" for that length and that isolation.

Beyond those two? Bell. His hunts were extraordinary and during a time in which Africa was still largely sight-unseen.
Originally Posted by Pugs
Ruark without a doubt. I was a victim as a young child of a Grandfather who passed Ruark on to me so I was biased early.

Later reading Hemingway I appreciated it but it couldn't displace Ruark.

The best part about Safaris of the day wasn't the amount of game and the price, it was the "gone to Africa" length of the Safari and the isolation from the modern world.

Reading Ruark Remembered really kind of pissed me off at him. Such a talent ended so early by drink (no teetotaler myself but all things in moderation!)


Ruarks anecdotes in Horn of the Hunter really make it enjoyable. He talks of trip to Hawaii in which he and buddy went ahead, and his wife Virgina flew out days later. He spoke of how the women on her side of the family all had a strong resemblance to each other.

Ruark and his buddy got tanked up a lunch and were having a good time and headed over to the airport to meet Virginia's flight. In thoses days before TSA, planes unloaded on the tarmac, and you could go outside to meet them on the way in. The 1950's were also the Marilyn Monroe era of the platinum blonde, and unbeknownced to Ruark, Virginia went platinum before she flew out.

Ruark scanned the the passengers as the deplaned, and upon spotting someone with white hair that looked like his wife, he turned to his buddy and said "Oh cripes, Virginia has brought her mother!"

Then in camp, Virginia had the head guy, Juma, peroxide her roots once a week, which the staff never figured out. They figured Ruark was an old, old Bwana, otherwise why would he have such and old looking wife?
I always thought it was interesting that Hemingway was blunt in his admission of his hypercompetitive nature in Green Hills. He boldly tells of Phillip Percival admonishing him for envying his buddy Charles Thompson's trophies. That scolding seemed to have left an impression.

My reading leads me to believe that Ruark was a fun drunk and Hemingway was certainly more competitive and needed to hog the attention after a few. Either would have been a lifetime of stories.
Having lived for a short time in NYC, I appreciated Ruark's description of the NYC lifestyle. He called the group he ran with The Saloon Society. Since everyone in NYC lived in high rise small apartments, none were in a hurry after to work to go home and dit around so they went out drinking. Drinks starting at 5p right after work on the Lower East Side, dinner and drinks in Midtown, and nightcaps on the Upper West side, every day.

By age 35, his MD told him his liver was toast and he needed to make a big change, so he booked a three month safari. I think he wrote that he tood along three cases of gin and three bottles of vermouth. He liked his martinis dry.......

Harry Selby said Ruark was responsible for making him an alcoholic. I'm not sure whether he said that in jest, or was serious. I have read where Ruark invited Selby to NY, and Selby was more uncomfortable there than Ruark ever was in Africa.
Originally Posted by hatari
Having lived for a short time in NYC, I appreciated Ruark's description of the NYC lifestyle. He called the group he ran with The Saloon Society. Since everyone in NYC lived in high rise small apartments, none were in a hurry after to work to go home and dit around so they went out drinking. Drinks starting at 5p right after work on the Lower East Side, dinner and drinks in Midtown, and nightcaps on the Upper West side, every day.

By age 35, his MD told him his liver was toast and he needed to make a big change, so he booked a three month safari. I think he wrote that he tood along three cases of gin and three bottles of vermouth. He liked his martinis dry.......

Harry Selby said Ruark was responsible for making him an alcoholic. I'm not sure whether he said that in jest, or was serious. I have read where Ruark invited Selby to NY, and Selby was more uncomfortable there than Ruark ever was in Africa.


Here's Ruark about his martinis:

Originally Posted by Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter
“’What’ll it be? Dr. Ruark’s nutritious, delicious, character-molding martini, or one of those gin-and-nonsense things that children drink?” Gin-and-nonsense was Gordon’s elixir of life mixed with Rose’s lime juice or tonic. Harry and Virginia usually drank gin-and-nonsense. I am a martini man myself. Over six weeks we used up forty-six bottles of gin and a little less than half a bottle of vermouth. I like martinis dry.


Forty six bottles of gin... that's 34.5 liters (better than 9 gallons!), to a "little less than 1/2 a bottle of vermouth", so let's call that 350 ml. Basically a 100:1 ratio. Yeah, he liked them dry.
Ruark and Selby was by far the better read, but I would give anything to spend 8 weeks with Papa in pre war Africa.
Originally Posted by 4ager

Here's Ruark about his martinis:

Originally Posted by Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter
“’What’ll it be? Dr. Ruark’s nutritious, delicious, character-molding martini, or one of those gin-and-nonsense things that children drink?” Gin-and-nonsense was Gordon’s elixir of life mixed with Rose’s lime juice or tonic. Harry and Virginia usually drank gin-and-nonsense. I am a martini man myself. Over six weeks we used up forty-six bottles of gin and a little less than half a bottle of vermouth. I like martinis dry.


Forty six bottles of gin... that's 34.5 liters (better than 9 gallons!), to a "little less than 1/2 a bottle of vermouth", so let's call that 350 ml. Basically a 100:1 ratio. Yeah, he liked them dry.


You found it! I was going on memory. You gotta love "Gin-and-nonsense"

I love the part about the pre leopard hunt where Shelby bans him from gin, but offers him a beer. "Beer is food, it is not tipple" I use that line far too often to justify a cold one. smile
Originally Posted by 4ager

Originally Posted by Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter
“’What’ll it be? Dr. Ruark’s nutritious, delicious, character-molding martini, or one of those gin-and-nonsense things that children drink?” Gin-and-nonsense was Gordon’s elixir of life mixed with Rose’s lime juice or tonic. Harry and Virginia usually drank gin-and-nonsense. I am a martini man myself. Over six weeks we used up forty-six bottles of gin and a little less than half a bottle of vermouth. I like martinis dry.


Forty six bottles of gin... that's 34.5 liters (better than 9 gallons!), to a "little less than 1/2 a bottle of vermouth", so let's call that 350 ml. Basically a 100:1 ratio. Yeah, he liked them dry.


I tend to disregard the vermouth tally. As a dry martini man myself for many years, I've known a bottle of Noilly Pratt to last close to a decade before it required replenishment. The tale here is the gin. Forty-six bottles of gin consumed by 3 people in 42 days (which doesn't include whisky, or the beer they quaffed at lunchtimes) is, by even my bleary-eyed standards, fair heavy drinking!!

Nonetheless, if I could use my time machine to wrangle a tag-along invite on either Ruark's safari or Hemingway's, I'd probably choose Ruark's.

Ruark may have been a drunk, but by all accounts he was a convivial companion, so I think he'd have been good company at the dinner table and sipping drinks at the campfire after sundown. That characteristic alone would make Bob my choice over Wemedge. Ruark was well-educated in a rough sort of way, had "seen the elephant, and was making a good living as a writer in the years leading up to the HOTH safari, all of which speaks of a man who's BTDT. Yet he was an honest man by all accounts, not overly egotistical, not inclined to inflate claims about himself or make himself to be something he wasn't. He may have been a fledgling rifleman and big game hunter on his safari, but he was a lifelong bird hunter and wingshot, something I can identify with; most of the real bird hunters I know are damn fine company and true hunters. Ruark acknowledged his greenhorn status, and chose to learn from arguably one of the best PH's that ever was. All of which speaks to the concept that Ruark was a good man and a good, honest hunter.

If I'd joined ol' Bob and Harry (and Virginia, of course) on that trip I think I'd enjoy it enormously. I'd drink too much, I'd laugh immoderately, sleep in more than I should, and probably not collect the quality or quantity of trophies I could get hunting with Selby on my own because of socializing, but in the end I'd come home wonderfully relaxed & rested, and I'd have happy memories to warm my heart for the rest of my life.

The Big Three of 20th century American pre-war writers, Faulkner, Fitzgerald, and Hemingway, were all fairly hard drinkers themselves. I believe Hemingway was a terribly hard drinker, in no small part because he was self-medicating his lifelong struggle with the disease that eventually took his life: major depression.

I've read just about everything Hemingway ever wrote, both of the big biographies and multiple smaller ones, and it all paints a consistent picture of the man that isn't pretty. He was a vain and insecure man who put other people down to make himself look bigger, who belittled his friends and vilified anyone who criticized him. He could be hugely, malignantly competitive (as his tales from GHOA illustrate). Yet if he liked you, he could be kind, generous, affectionate, and a wonderfully engaging companion. If he admired you for something you could do that he wanted to take advantage of, he could be an incredible suck-up. But he was also a keen observer of life in general and humanity in particular, and hugely intelligent.

So I think that the Hemingway safari would be hugely different from the Ruark safari. Conversation around Hem's campfire would not be convivial or humorous: it would be erudite, challenging, illuminating. But there would be a lot of silence, and a good chance that there would be some sharp criticism of one's words, thoughts, or conduct if it crossed any of Ernie's "rules". In short, I think you'd find yourself walking on eggshells much of the time. Add to that the fact you'd have to put up with Pauline, who by all accounts had the temperament of a dyspeptic she-badger, and I'd have to guess that the Hemingway safari would be a miserable excuse for a vacation.

In contrast to my homecoming from the Ruark safari, I anticipate that if I could tough out the whole month with Ernest, Pauline, and Percival, I'd be bone-weary and emotionally frazzled by the end of it. I'd probably write a book about my month with Hemingway, which would be panned by the critics due to the enormous popularity of His Hemingwayness, and would die a bitter old man, alone, in the rain.
Originally Posted by hatari
Originally Posted by 4ager

Here's Ruark about his martinis:

Originally Posted by Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter
“’What’ll it be? Dr. Ruark’s nutritious, delicious, character-molding martini, or one of those gin-and-nonsense things that children drink?” Gin-and-nonsense was Gordon’s elixir of life mixed with Rose’s lime juice or tonic. Harry and Virginia usually drank gin-and-nonsense. I am a martini man myself. Over six weeks we used up forty-six bottles of gin and a little less than half a bottle of vermouth. I like martinis dry.


Forty six bottles of gin... that's 34.5 liters (better than 9 gallons!), to a "little less than 1/2 a bottle of vermouth", so let's call that 350 ml. Basically a 100:1 ratio. Yeah, he liked them dry.


You found it! I was going on memory. You gotta love "Gin-and-nonsense"

I love the part about the pre leopard hunt where Shelby bans him from gin, but offers him a beer. "Beer is food, it is not tipple" I use that line far too often to justify a cold one. smile


I cannot begin to tell you how many times I've read "Horn of the Hunter". There are many parts, and that is one of them, that stick in the mind.
I knew I'd like Ruark after reading the first couple of paragraphs of Horn of the Hunter. Harry asked Virginia or 'mem saab' how she was doing and the 'mem saab' replied something to the effect that she was "God D*mned tired of being in the bush, in the bouncy lorry, etc, "and wondering what she had gotten herself into. Not to mention her encounter with the 5 or so lions while she was in the jeep and Robert and Harry had the lioness 10' from them.

The chapter on tipping had me crying I was laughing so hard. Went Harry went to tell the staff, I felt like I was right there listening to him.
OK, so this has been up for a couple of days now and no one has taken the obligatory swipe at Capstick. Things are slipping.
Ha! Now there's a thread derailer if ever I saw one!

From everything I've read that Capstick wrote, and everything I've heard from people who knew him, Peter was a tremendously likable fellow and a great conversationalist, rancounteur, and a pretty decent hunter when hunting was the order of the day.

I'd still rather be on safari with Ruark & Company in 1950 than Hemingway in 1934 or Capstick in 1970.
I don't want to hijack my own thread, but I knew Peter and he was a great guy. He never claimed to be Percival or Selby (and wasn't), but just a guy who wanted to go to African and live in the bush and write about it.

We never talked about Hemingway's 1956 safari. True at First Light didn't do much for me. Seemed he worked to hard to make a story out of that trip, but I wished he'd made it a narrative.

Anybody for that one?
Well, if Capstick's added to the mix, without question, I'd choose him! True at First Light was about the SUCKIEST book I ever read on Africa.
The scotch drinker arrives! Got aquatinted with Peter over a glass of Dewer's in Reno at the Long Bar at the old MGM.

Problem is, back in the day the only scotch you got on safari would be J&B, Cutty Sark, and maybe..... Johnnie Walker.
Ya, u betcha! (no beer for me! frown )
So, if I read the trend right, the question has now expanded to include:

1) Hemingway's 1933 Green Hills of Africa safari with Philip Percival;
2) Ruark's 1950 Horn of the Hunter safari with Harry Selby;
3) Hemingway's 1953-54 True At First Light safari;
4) Unspecified date Death in the Whatever safari with Peter H. Capstick (somewhere in the late 60's, I'm guessing?).

For purposes of fun, hunting, and a rolicking good experience, I would pick, in order: 2-4-1-3.

For source material to write a book about the author, I'd pick 1-2-3-4.
Originally Posted by hatari


We never talked about Hemingway's 1956 safari. True at First Light didn't do much for me. Seemed he worked to hard to make a story out of that trip, but I wished he'd made it a narrative.



Well, as a fellow Hemingway aficionado, I have to say that I don't consider TAFL a Hemingway book. It was partially written shortly after the 1953-54 safari, then put aside while he wrote The Old Man and the Sea, then permanently put away shortly after that. Hem's health problems ruined him, from a writing standpoint, at that time and he never picked the manuscript up again.

His son Patrick, who was neither a writer nor a professional editor, then "edited" the manuscript and published it. It was a mess.

I bought the book when it was first published it and read it several times over. It seemed to me at the time that the passages/parts that were true to Hemingway's writing style and manner were very good, but they were mixed up willy-nilly with the nonsense that Patrick thought made a good tale. If you excerpt out that junk, you come up with a short but pretty good novella.

God save us from the well-intentioned editorial efforts of great writers' offspring...
Ok, if I have to pick it would be Hemingway's Green Hills Of Africa. To me there is still that innocence (for lack of a better word) of the time before WWII turned the world upside down. To think in a couple of years Papa would be reporting from the precursor in Spain.

I did enjoy Ruark, but for the moment it would still be Papa.
I loved to read both authors, but I wouldn't want to live next door to Hemingway, or travel with him. Men who go to bars to pick fights aren't my friends.

I don't care about them being alcoholics, some of my best friends fit that description. I was something of an alcofrolic myself when I was younger. But I never liked bullies.
Ruark by a mile.
I believe he is (was) my kind of people.
Originally Posted by Hogeye
I loved to read both authors, but I wouldn't want to live next door to Hemingway, or travel with him. Men who go to bars to pick fights aren't my friends.

I don't care about them being alcoholics, some of my best friends fit that description. I was something of an alcofrolic myself when I was younger. But I never liked bullies.


Kind of my thoughts. As much fun as it would of been to hang out with Earnie, I have to believe we'd of been rollin' in the mud before the end of a week.
Reading part of Green Hills last night. One passage gave me reason to consider Hemingway's first.

They were hunting rhino in the thick bush, and flushed out a cow and a young one, then found a bull rhino with smallish horn (by those standards).

They debated with Percival whether or not it was big enough, when it was pointed out "I 'd still have three on license" if he took it. Imaine that in today's world!

J A Hunter was charged as Game Warden in Kenya to wipe out all the rhino pestering the Kikuyu in one district because they were plentiful to the point of dangerous. All just 80 years ago.
Both authors give me a nostalgia fit. They shot game for leopard bait and camp meat that you and I would pay trophy fees for.
Truthfully, when it comes to Hemingway I prefer his Nick Adams short stories more than any of the novels.
Would have to be Ruark. Green Hills of Africa is the only hunting book I could not bring myself to finish reading and gave away. Something about "Papa" does not jive with me.
And it would have been a hoot to see Ruark's blond fall in love with Africa.
Definitely with Ruark, Selby, the memsaab, Juma, Kidogo and company.... I love Horn of the Hunter, even more each time I read it.


But it would've been fantastic to have witnessed Africa in the old days with Roosevelt, or better yet, Bell.
Originally Posted by DocRocket
Originally Posted by hatari


We never talked about Hemingway's 1956 safari. True at First Light didn't do much for me. Seemed he worked to hard to make a story out of that trip, but I wished he'd made it a narrative.



Well, as a fellow Hemingway aficionado, I have to say that I don't consider TAFL a Hemingway book. It was partially written shortly after the 1953-54 safari, then put aside while he wrote The Old Man and the Sea, then permanently put away shortly after that. Hem's health problems ruined him, from a writing standpoint, at that time and he never picked the manuscript up again.

His son Patrick, who was neither a writer nor a professional editor, then "edited" the manuscript and published it. It was a mess.

I bought the book when it was first published it and read it several times over. It seemed to me at the time that the passages/parts that were true to Hemingway's writing style and manner were very good, but they were mixed up willy-nilly with the nonsense that Patrick thought made a good tale. If you excerpt out that junk, you come up with a short but pretty good novella.

God save us from the well-intentioned editorial efforts of great writers' offspring...



I was going to make this exact point - Hemingway never finished True at First Light. He would be horrified (I was going to write 'mortified' but he is already dead) I am sure, that it was ever published.
It is like the ancient tapes of some John Lennon's half finished songs that Yoko Ono had in a bottom drawer for years.

In TAFL you can read passages that sound spot on and then others that need to be cut or tidied, or where he takes three goes at saying the same thing, and it really does read like a first draft that his son got ahold of and I don't think you can judge the man for it.
I would hazard a guess, that Hemingway may never have even read back what he had written.
For some reason I was never able to enjoy and admire Hemingway's writings. I guess it just goes to prove that no two eyes see things the same way. and no two brains interpret things the same. OTOH I have enjoyed most all of Ruark's prose immensely. Peter Capstick was a friend, and I likewise enjoyed his writings a great deal, particularly his earlier works. I learned early on to take Peter's writings with a handful of salt. His early mentor in Africa once told me that everything that Peter wrote in his books actually happened, but not necessarily exactly as Peter related it.

I suspect that accompanying Ruark or Capstick on a safari would have been a hoot - Hemingway not so much.
I'd go with Ruark in a heart beat

Okay, I cheated by bringing Teddy Roosevelt into it, but then somebody added Capstick!

Nobody else likes the idea of sharing an African safari with Teddy Roosevelt, Frederick Selous and R.J. Cunninghame? (Pugs, you of all people!)

There was a book, too, like the other guys: "African Game Trails" by Theodore Roosevelt.
Originally Posted by tjm10025

Nobody else likes the idea of sharing an African safari with Teddy Roosevelt, Frederick Selous and R.J. Cunninghame? (Pugs, you of all people!)


TR would have been interesting on safari, or pretty much any other time. He was so well read and such a wide range of experience that he would have been fascinating to talk with. He wasn't a good shot but he was much more the naturalist than any of the others and I'll bet his observations about the country and critters and itself would have been interesting.

He was a light drinker so at least we would have gotten up and on our way in the am in like Ruark and Hemingway at times. I suppose that wasn't such a big deal when your safari was months though!

Selous himself, would have been worth the price of the hunt, even if he wasn't there every day.

Really, now. Frederick Selous. And R.J. Cuninghame.

Although ... hell, I just thought of a potential deal killer. Selous, IIRC, was a virtual non-drinker. Practically tea-total. Don't know about Cuninghame.

Yeah, I guess it would have been pretty dull at night, around that campfire. wink
Originally Posted by hatari

They debated with Percival whether or not it was big enough, when it was pointed out "I 'd still have three on license" if he took it. Imaine that in today's world!


Great point, I hadn't considered that. With respect to rhino, that is a game species I had no desire to hunt until recently. I had only seen rhino in the zoo and on TV. But on my safari last September--during which I saw 7 black rhino in the wild--I was surprised to see how agile and graceful these creatures are in their own element. I would happily hunt rhino if I could, now! And the thought of having 3 or more on license? Holy schneikies!!

However, I still wouldn't care for the danger of sharing the bush with a large, belligerent, prehistoric-mannered beast that could turn on me without provocation... like Ernest Hemingway.
Ruark and Selby hands down.
© 24hourcampfire