You know what's funny about 24HCF bible thumpers is, is that they'll start a thread about which of them baby jesus loves the most, but willfully ignore blatant racism and racist posts.

C'mon, fellas, you know the song...

Jesus loves the little children
All the children of the world
Red and yellow, black & white
They are precious in His sight
Jesus loves the little children of the world

What Would Jesus Do?

You guys got the T-shirt. And the bumper sticker.

Wabigoon, Happy Camper, Et al.?

Playin with fire you are !

And it is the same dumb pricks every time.

I still cant believe that the little children that get killed before they get exposed to some Christian dont get to go to heaven.


I just cant believe that.

I’ve never read a mean spirited Happy Camper post. Maybe I missed one? He’s passionate about what he believes and likes to discuss it and share the word of God as he sees it without any brow beating of those that disagree. I can’t find any fault in that. His morals and political views don’t seem to be what’s wrong with the West today. I’d argue that even if in jest someone embracing a “Highway to Hell” mentality towards life is the root cause of more societal problems in the world.

He is a flat out liar though.

Hahaha!


Well....besides that of course.

I’ve never read or heard anything that says that they do. I’m not aware of many or any that believe that. Some of the Bible’s teachings are hard to understand or believe but so is evolution and that some creature could evolve an eye and all of the nerve endings, cells, bio chemistry, and brain capacity to translate it all at once into vision or independently over time with no one part serving a useful purpose until the rest of it was developed. As one example of what’s sold as modern science that’s also hard to believe.

If the Bible sounds difficult to believe so does some Big bang theory that somehow out of nothing at all everything just sort of happens, a universe appears out of absolutely nothing and then from bacteria in a sea somehow eyesight and everything else developed and from fish with gills they developed lungs not needed for the ocean walked onto solid ground evolved into apes and then people. That sounds crazy too.

Try this:

https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/maternalinfanthealth/infantmortality.htm

That is just in the US but it happens around the world.

Seeing how the CDC has handled Covid and that they consider firearms a public health issue I think there’s a lot of politics and agenda involved with the CDC. I have no reason to not believe that statistic but I’m not following the point of it.

Try these then:


https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality

https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality

Don’t worry. You can’t believe it because it’s not true.
If there is a true God who loves all His children, it simply cannot be true.

I'm not a hugely religious person but was raised in church. I seem to remember that children up to the age of accountability are saved. Onve they pass that age they are not unless they believe, are baptized, and then live a good life. Dont jump all over me if Im wrong now as its been a long time.




What Lemming says makes a lot of sense, both theories are hard to believe. When I was in HS, my science teacher was also a minister at our church. Our church always taught the creation theory of course but he made a lot of sense when he talked about both theories being correct in that God did create life but then evolution also take place throughout the years. Millions of years. Basically God created evolution also.

Infant mortality? People were blessed with free will and I wouldn’t want it any other way. Unfortunately part of the deal with free will is is an imperfect world. If a creator gave us free will but in exchange for living a certain way we lived forever, we’re guaranteed great wealth, and never had heartache or loss that wouldn’t really be free will. IMO rather you believe in God or not the Bible lays out a pretty good foundation on how to live a long and happy life. It’s an imperfect world and there will always be exceptions and heartbreak but to have it any other way would mean not having free will. Just my opinion as I see it. As mentioned above Christian teachings are a leap in faith but so is what passes for science when claiming out of nothing an explosion “Big Bang” happened and created a universe that lead to bacteria turning in to humans.

I didn't realise that there was a chapter of "exemptions" covering infants, people with severe mental impairment or those in general that get killed off in accidents before finding god. Given the benefit of any doubt?

That mirrors my own background. I personally believe that up to the age of accountability all kids are saved under the grace of God as biblical teachings are all about free choice be it with consequences. Children by definition aren’t old enough to make choices with a maturity or a full understanding.

I also was taught and believe that there is some evolution. Yorkshire Terrier’s or beef cattle didn’t magically appear, they were selectively breed for by people and in the same way evolution breeds in or out some traits. At the same time IMO it takes a big jump in what passes as science to explain how a universe came into existence from nothing at all or how or why bacteria in an ocean would develop lungs from gills or all of the independent features needed for eyesight all at once or over time independently when each feature would be useless until the rest were in place. At the end of the day all of it’s a leap of faith and difficult to understand.

Probably old timers too that haven't been exposed to Christianity.

Especially in the Olden Days.

I wonder how many Celts, Etruscans, and even...............Eskimos passed before they could here the Word?

Challenge Jim to an ear pull and he'll tell ya bout Eskimos.

And who gets first pick: god, Allah or any one of the others

Muslim teachings as a whole haven’t advanced humanity a whole lot so I’d reckon that the Christian faith gets more right and would be more inline with what a creator would want for humanity. As we drift further into a non Christian and more secular West we as a people and culture IMO aren’t headed into a better world.

Serious question….With respect….. why would you believe … or even be concerned that that is a biblical teaching?


I don’t believe children younger than their age of accountability “go anywhere but to the outstretched arms of Jesus.”

I can see where he gets it...young children haven't been "saved" according to the rabid proselytisers, and until they have "accepted" they are screwed.

But point that out to them and watch them back-peddle.

Well, sadly, you are likely right….. that is why one cannot rely on hearsay, say so or the “general consensus of society.”

One must mostly do his own investigation and make up his own mind. It quite dangerous to listen “others,” they can give all kinds of bad advice and lies.

Like they say, “do your own research.”


Edit to add: makes me smile! Make’em backpedal….. I enjoy watching some folks backpedal as well!

Nor should you believe that!

Whoever “taught” you that is a dumbass.

Ah yes……! Simple and well said!

So an infant born into a staunch Muslim family will get taken up by a Christian god in the event they die before reaching a minimum age requirement. Wouldn't god figure that that infant would likely have developed to follow Islam as well? Wouldn't that be a preemptive violation of free will?


Also if someone murders their infant haven't they then guaranteed the infant a place in heaven under the minimum age exemption clause? And if the murdering parent repents their sins and asks for forgiveness and accepts Jesus as their savior, aren't they also going to go to heaven? Sounds like a win win situation.

As evidenced by all your posts regarding religion you aren’t interested in hearing or learning, you’re only interested in arguing.

But...he is correct.

As usual you’re wrong.

The downunder atheist tag team thing is super cute though. 😂

As usual...you are wrong.

I'm listening, so tell me where I am wrong or going astray. I haven't seen any facts come my way to increase my learning yet. Responses so far don't stack up to any real scrutiny - there's far too many logical holes.

Argument is one way of sorting fact from fiction. If something is true, it should stand up to arguments. Nobody argues over the existence of the Sun, Moon or stars....the existence of a God or gods is arguable.

The issue I have is not God's existence, rather I am irritated by arseholes pushing their version on others without regard to anything but their own wants.

That tells me all I need to know about their belief.

Its false doctrine taught by men, not God.

A fair point.

Don't believe it, because its not true. But as a "preachy bible thumper," I suspect an explanation in this thread would probably neither be welcome nor understood.

It's amazing how many people have fallen for a sockpuppet troll that arrived on the scene last year playing a religous persona.
Happy Camper......
Gotta be some old member playing the role.

All his BS stories of near death experiences and the hand of god rescuing him at the last moment.
What's he got 3 or 4 of them NDE hand of god saved him stories???

All his BS professional knowledge schit.
Captain Cut and paste everything....
From Bible stuff to Guns and Ammo...

His strip mall preacher anderson vids didnt work out well for him.

So he moved onto old guffer preacher vids.
Trying to shift and appease to older people who cling to his post.

Some of you guys are really aloof and gullible beleiving This HC sockpuppet troll.

Do any of you see any of us going after anyone else for their religous faith on here???

It's cause we know HC is a poser and has been caught in so many lies and BS on here.

Some of you need to wake up and realize HC is trolling your beliefs and faith for his own sick little kicks..

(Copy and paste)

'The Bible teaches is that God does not hold young children to be guilty of sin. Or, to be more specific, God’s word teaches that young children, when they die will not be lost; instead they will be in heaven with the saints. Jesus said concerning young children, “to such belongs the Kingdom of heaven.'

Jehovas witness told me that.

Good on you, Jim.

Youre right. They do if they die before the age of accountability.

Its why King David straightened up his act and got right with God after having lived astray for a good while. He wanted to see his son from Bathsheba in Heaven.

I can’t recall a single incident in the Bible where Jesus approached a non-believer to try and bring him into the fold, so I don’t either.

I don’t mock God, ever. I understand the doubt but I also can’t imagine how everything that was written thousands of years ago being so spot on, especially revelations. I do know that I better figure it out.

Negative, not even close in fact. People who are not interested in learning something fall into the "don't cast your pearls before the swine" scenario. Plenty of people have a desire to learn, so don't waste time on those who have zero interest. Pretty simple.

It takes a great leap of faith to believe the stars, sun, moon, etc came into existence by anything other than God Almighty. Spending any time at all outdoors, paying attention, makes me shake my head at this simple minded fallacy.

Interesting point, but I would have chose a different religion than Islamic, simply because Christians and Islamics worship the same God. I believe the Bible will confirm that about our half brothers and sisters.

I wouldn’t either. But mainline Christian doctrine (not including Catholics) holds that infants that die — the sick, the aborted, victims of anything — and children under the age “of understanding” which varies for each, and only God knows, go to heaven to be in the presence of their Lord, Jesus Christ.

God is perfect in His justice.

The liberals want to kill GOD. And for one reason. To eliminate the Nature’s GOD and Natural Law argument from governing. Your rights will not be GOD given but you will be given privileges by man .What you will have is government by moral relativism.

And 1/2 of the conservatives will push for it.

As far as understanding the Bible.
It was written in ancient times, to ancient people, with ancient symbols. It is also written in many different literary styles. Most will read it with a modern western perspective and not fully understand what it says.

I wonder what she looks like with no clothes on ??

kwg

JSTUART, don’t judge the Sender by the mailman.

Would the woman at the well meet your criteria?

I agree with this. The problem is with certain men who want to define God in their own terms and tell me what God wants. As if they had the mental capacity to perfectly understand a God capable of Creation.

Do you think all the disciples were believers? There were many people that believed in God. Just not that many that believed Jesus was the son of God.

The God I worship is a just and loving God. I don't understand everything, of course, but I trust him. He offered me grace and forgiveness when I deserved destruction. If this question is your only stumbling block, then I think you're on a good path. Lots of stuff is written on this topic. Most seem to say that the kids will be ok. I'll trust God on this one.

Your statement about Christians and Islamic worshiping the same God cannot be backed up by the Bible.

You can certainly believe that way, but you would be believing a falsehood.

This is some funny A$$ crazy S hit right here.

but really, it's all total BS...made up stories to extort money from people so they can be told what they want to hear.

Right on George.

Good point, though perhaps Wabi gets a pass. I've never seen him return the vitriol he receives. Too often our faith does not show in how we live our lives. Shame on us for that. Jesus was very specific about how we were to treat our neighbors. I'd not want my defense to be: "But Father, I hated all the right people".

I am going to guess that through the centuries the "Christian" religion has terrorized and murdered more than the Moslems. Christianity left Jesus in the dust almost 2000 years ago and then killed those who would bring him back.

I have a question. At what age and day does a person become accountable?

Yeah but Jehovas are just plain weird.

Lol, do you know how to get Jehovas to quit knocking on your door?


Just answer the door in your underwear and they'll never bother you again.

They believed, but needed some “tweaking”. He knew what was in their hearts, so knew there was something to work with. A belief in God was the beginning.

“Don’t cast your pearls before swine”, pretty much says it all.

For the record I've never seen Wabbi being preachy.

He posts religious music but he's passionate about his beliefs so he makes a post, lots of people here make posts about what they're passionate about.

Jag makes religious post once in awhile, big deal he's passionate about it.

Now HappyButtBanger is another story, he's one of those arrogant ignorant Christians you just want to kick in the nuts.

The only thing HC can do is yell about God to you, he's incapable of being able to show you.

How do you figure?

God judges the heart, and therefore who enters the Kingdom. What else is there to understand?

Scoot over and save me a seat B....


My biggest fear is that these people are right, and when I get to hell, it will be full of them...

Well, there were two spots on either side of Jesus when he was crucified. One spot was occupied by the one who was told by Jesus..”… today you will be with me in paradise…”

The other spot was occupied by one who cursed and rejected God until he died.

Consider carefully….

I think you misunderstood. If they do all that, they should be golden. What the hell do they need Jesus for?

Who is worthy?

Actually it doesn't. We know how these items came into existence.

What we don't know is how the Big Bang was initiated in the first place. The very theory itself says we can never know. The Big Bang theory does not preclude its initiation by a Creator.

What is a leap of faith, though, is all the subsequent events in the book of Genesis. There is no evidence that they occurred and in most cases substantial evidence that they didn't.

"If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.: John 15 18-19

I don't talk much about my religion

I believe in a higher power, mainly because there are questions that man cannot answer.

But however you want to frame that higher power, I'm convinced that power doesn't give two schits about what happens on this planet or any other one for that matter.

Its how the world makes sense to me. I find I don't have to think much about it at all when I keep that perspective on things.

It does require faith that's for sure. No evidence? Surely you jest.

Psalm 19

1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.
5 It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
6 It rises at one end of the heavens
and makes its circuit to the other;
nothing is deprived of its warmth.

The singularity("big bang") is the creation of something(stars, sun, moon) AND time AND space itself from nothing. That defies science because all of science is based on physics which is causal.

The explanation has to be some meta physical cause because the singularity creates the physical. The Kalam cosmological argument is a meta physical argument for the existence of God(there are other arguments as well). So there is MORE evidence for God being the first cause than not.

Believe/don’t believe….personal decision and I respect either. I also detest either side pushing their views on others that clearly don’t believe the same way.

Same as vax, masks, marijuana etc….

That's called deism. It is a worn and tried belief and defies the evidence we do have. The evidence points to a caring God.

Define "pushing". Just talking about ones religion is not "pushing".

What was it that God did when he cast his son before us?

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Were we, apart from him, more worthy than swine? "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jerimiah 17:9 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." Jesus didn't come to pick the good ones. Without him, there are none of us that aren't fireworthy. "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." I don't know any farmer that considers his swine that low.

Maybe Jesus meant something by "that which is holy" and "your pearls" other than the gospel.

I said evidence, not declarations by some Bronze Age tribe. Something in the Bible does not qualify as evidence for truth for the Bible. It is circular reasoning.

Incidentally the sun does not move across the sky as the psalm implies. The earth rotates. God knows the difference.

The explanation for creation is not scientific so a bronze age tribe has as much insight into the origin of the universe as we do.

Wow, her vocal range almost covers a whole octave.

When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for[b] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.

Its plain to see His words were correct in telling us about fools.

Its plain to see from your posts on the fire that you are one.

No vaccine used in the US is FDA approved, and yet you get your own children to act as lab rats.

You see Biden trying to destroy this, your country, and you stupidly give your kids for him to destroy too.

THIS! exactly. It is human instinct to believe in a higher power. if not, then any OTHER Human could claim to be a higher power (Hitler, Manson, Jones). The only thing organized religions do is prey on that instinct by making up a bunch of S Hit and charge money to tell the story. that's it. It's all fabricated ornaments on a tree. the more ornaments on the tree, the more money they get. Everything other than "There is a higher power" is all made up crap.

But in those times, people thought it did. Perhaps God knew that (the writing of the Psalms) was not the time or place for lessons on astronomy.

Macro evolution is the theory (and its just that, theory that has become a dogma — its own religions) that is not scientific and is one of the biggest lies perpetuated on mankind.

Reading Thomas Paine did it for me. It seems many of the founding fathers felt that way as well.

genocide, natural disasters, plague, disease - caring God ?

Well, color me curious…. What “subsequent events” have not only “no evidence” that they occurred, but further, there exists “substantial evidence that they didn’t.”

Inquiring minds want to know…..

what "evidence" does anyone have of god ? aside from the bull S hit they make up, or had forced down their throat from the time they could understand language?

one of the most basic premises behind religion is you HAVE GOT to get to the when they're young. This is even written in the bible somewhere...

Take a 2 year old and preach "jesus loves me" to it and "god is good, god is great" for 10 years, throw in some cookies and kool aid and you got them hooked for life. do the same thing to a 40 year old who's been educated but never heard of jesus...not so much. The more you learn about the world and science, the harder it is to swallow all this crap.

most bible thumpers quote the bible and play fast and loose with the text. When it suits their purposes, they treat it like the literally perfect word of god, and, in a peculiar twist of logic, they quote the Bible itself to back up their claim...circular logic.

You just defined 90% of the problem believers face trying to convert nonbelievers, way too much “talk” and no actions. Let your actions be your witness. Talk is cheap.

Saying that god created the universe doesn't really solve any mystery. Because the next logical question simply becomes okay then how was god created? That explanation doesn't answer a question it just exchanges it for another one. You speak of simple minded fallacies because someone believes the universe came from nothing but can't seem to see that similarity of believing that a god capable of creating the universe from nothing apparently came from nothing himself. What's the difference?

Schitt, you did it now.

Just another in a long line of your retarded attempts at being relevant. Seems like you'd eventually find a subject you know something about. Congrats on trying though.

IndyCA has a propensity for proving he's a mind numb clownshow no matter the subject. He's proven it over and over again.

Their big words did not do much for them. They are bones in the grave. Pfft.

You presume to know what is best. You think our purpose is to live pain free. You think the goal of life is hedonism. It is not. Hedonism and prosperity perverts the human condition and always has. Look at America right now. I dumpster fire caused by good times and weak men.

If evil is your evidence then the counter evidence is the good in the world. He offers Love, caring, charity, joy, compassion. These are the things that make life meaningful. Things don't make life meaningful. The greatest evidence of His caring is His Son as a sacrifice. God uses suffering to bring us closer to Him.

This is called the "Problem of Evil". Theological answers to it have been had for centuries. They are called Theodicies.

False. They are the complete opposite. It is a myth that Islam is an Abrahamic religion.

That question you came up with has already been answered as well.

Revelation 1:8 ESV
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

that will be the most messed up thing I will read all week.

That is because you think what is important is not important. You think pleasure is lifes goal.

It takes a great deal of something called stupid to think an explosion of gasses caused life, dna, rna, a structured universe rather than intelligent design.

The Truth has a way of coming out.

I don't believe that either Jim, that's some messed up thinking

Do you know KWFA personally or are you just making presumptions about him based on him being a deist?

I'll

Id be more afraid of being there with Hussein, Biteme, Hillary and Piglosi.

It's in proverbs. It doesn't matter if you believe what I believe. We'll all find out when we die.

No. Its not human instinct. HE made man in HIS image, iow, with a spirit. That spirit has innate knowlegde, a conscience, a clue, until its buried so deep in corruption and sin its soul has forgotten about it.

Its true we can look around at the universe and see His greatness and its why many appreciate it much more than many who are lost and much prefer the great structures composed by mortal men.

No composition by man can hold a candle to wind through the trees and rolling thunder in the mountains or any other of His compositions.

what I think is important is that a book full of contradictions and errors is not inspired by the word of God but of man, and is subject to his weakness of interpretation, thus making men make proclamations about random suffering as the acts of a benevolent power.

But I get it, we both believe what we choose to believe for the world to make sense.I won't change you any more than you'll change me. Peace.

Were you paying attention. He made claims about why God would allow evil in the world. Read the thread.

You choose to see "contradictions", and you choose to ignore the enormous amount of evidence in the world around us. The evidence is overwhelming for the existence of God.

I can't change anyone. That is not my job, nor is it within my ability. My job is to simply speak the truth.

I'll put this up.

no arguments on the existence of a God. One that actually cares about what we do here on earth is the issue.

Sure a lot of experts on something they have never read. Start with the gospels. Read Proverbs. Get into the epistles. Might give you a new look.

That's a lot of reading, bro. I cheated and just watched the movie.

Never a mean spirited Crappy Hamper post???
Laughing, obviously you've missed several.
By the way, isn't telling other people they are going to he'll because they don't accept his BS mean spiritrd?

Yep.

Legitimate question. One that MANY people have. But Christianity has never taught that God doesn't allow bad things to happen. Nor has Christianity ever taught that God doesn’t allow bad things to happen to good people, nor has Christianity ever taught that God doesn’t allow bad things to happen to innocent children.

Apostle Peter didn’t doubt God’s love, nor did he doubt God’s existence, even though he saw much pain and suffering in the world...even though he experienced much pain and suffering himself. Peter’s faith wasn’t tethered to the imaginary God who doesn’t allow bad things to happen to good people. That wasn’t his God.

And if people have lost faith in God because of evil in the world, if people have lost faith in God because of the pain and suffering in the world...or their own pain and suffering...maybe they can realize that the men and women who brought us the story of Jesus saw pain and suffering that we can’t imagine, and many of them experienced pain and suffering that we can’t imagine, and yet they believed.

They saw the worst thing imaginable happen to the best person they’d ever known...who was completely innocent of any wrongdoing at all, ever...and yet they believed anyway. Because their faith wasn’t in the imaginary God that never allows bad things to happen to good people. Their faith was in the God that was introduced to them by Jesus.

It is truly wonderful being holier-than-thou and there so many of ya gathered here.

That would be a tall order. The more we learn about how big the universe is, how far away far away things are, and how small we are, and how many more billions of stars and hundreds of billions planets there are just in this galaxy, and the billions of other galaxies... A God would have to be pretty powerful to keep track of us. Do you think he could be? Or is that too much?

I don't even know where to get started on terror, wars, and murder committed by nominal Christian churches and sanctioned by their highest authorities. Heretics were burned, holy land crusades pillaged and completely slaughtered entire cities, Constantinople a Christian city was sacked and pillaged by a Catholic army, the inquisitions burned untold numbers, there were wars between Protestants and Catholics that went on for years and years, the holy Puritans seeking refuge turned around and burned and hanged witches. The much revered John Calvin had Michael Servetus burned for challenging his theology. I've left out most of the ''Christian'' atrocities. Our founding fathers got a head start on the much hated communists when they divorced government and religion. They were students of history and while they probably didn't have a lot of first hand knowledge of the evils of Islam or Hinduism they full well knew the evil that would occur if ''Christianity'' was allowed to insert itself into ruling the country.

I guess you're getting what they intended all along.

There it is.

The irony in this post is rich.

‘The Church’ has certainly reared its ugly head in the ways that you’ve described for at least 1400 years of its history. It’s despicable. I think Jesus’ ekklesia accomplished quite a bit of original good for the first 300 years of its history. Anyway, the Israelites did quite a bit of mass killings of the Canaanites under Moses and Joshua when they completely and utterly destroyed them and their cities. And the Israelites did quite a bit of mass killings when the Amalekites were annihilated by Saul, and they didn’t spare anything that breathed...men, women, children, infants...they even killed the oxen, sheep, camels, and donkeys. And the Israelites did quite a bit of mass killings when eleven tribes of Israel had all but wiped out the tribe of Benjamin...they slaughtered the Benjaminite men, women, and children...except for 600 men who had been hiding in a cave. There is historical violence and darkness in the traditions of both the Church ‘and’ the ancient Israelites.

We can see star formation happening, gravity, interstellar dust and gas clouds.

Not knowing whether the universe is cyclic, a part of a greater system, a one off quantum fluctuation or something not yet understood, doesn't take faith.

Research is not a conclusion, it's a work in progress. Not having all the answers is not faith.

Claiming to have answers based on what is written in old scrolls is faith.

They are different versions of God.

Different versions of a god maybe, but there's only one God.

1 Corinthians 8:6
New International Version
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

You are right about the annihilation of the Canaanites in battles such as Jericho and Ai. Also other battles. Even more so in that day as it is now I'm sure you wouldn't leave an enemy behind you and after all they were taking the land and planning to keep it on orders from God. Wouldn't be a good idea to move in amongst a population that wanted you dead (American Indians for us).The Benjaminite massacre might be instructive for us in this country. It wasn't so much that all the Benjaminites were guilty of rape and murder not to mention sodomy but they gave cover to and protected those of their tribe that were guilty. It seems the Lord had enough of that and ordered the massacre. We as a nation may see a terrible punishment given to us not so much for the fact that we are all guilty but we have stood by and allowed unbelievable depravity to be called normal.

Many will be eternally punished, some will not. Not sure what type of "terrible punishment" you're referring to?

Destruction of the nation as far as self governing republic, maybe over run by a hostile power. Sort of like what is starting to take place already. It will be surprising how fast the country can disintegrate and become a shiethole like Haiti. We could easily see the day when a occupying power moves in and takes over under the auspices of maybe the UN. And rule us under the barrel of a rifle and concentration camps for the recalcitrant. You do know a lot of that happened in somewhat civilized Christian countries in the last 8 or 9 decades. Plenty of people still alive that saw it.

The USA is not mentioned in the book of Revelation that's for sure. It's all a means to an end, and God is sovereign. I'm not worried about it. You either believe God's promises or you don't. I choose to believe.

There is only one God. He sent his son Jesus to die on the cross for our salvation. There is no other under Heaven whereby salvation is given. Not Allah, not Buddha, nor any other.

The Bible says that EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. This will include ALL of us.

John 3:16

Amen from the back row!

The God that people believe in differs between religions and believers. Whether an actual God exists has not been proven, therefore belief is a matter of faith....and why we have countless versions of God.

The USA can be destroyed in the warmup to the Revelation finale. Millions upon millions of lives and many nations have been destroyed since Jesus left. We aren't special and we aren't Israel. You are right not to worry about it. There isn't much you can do about it.

My God lives, all the other so called gods are stone cold dead.

I plan on being raptured before the real bad stuff starts.

That is your belief. Which you are entitled to hold, but it's not something that has been established as fact. Which is why we call it a matter of, not science, not philosophy, but faith.

Logic has no place in a religion discussion.

You are scientifically illiterate if you think it does not take faith to believe in those alternatives. There is NO science which describes how physics(time,space,matter) was created. None.

"cyclic" - no science which supports a cycle.
"part of a greater system" and "one off quantum fluctuation" - that's just word bullshit showing you don't know what you are talking about

Some day we'll see, won't we?

Along with people who belong to the 2000+ other religions on earth, yeah, we will.

Faith is what it is. But there are a lot of people capable of having faith that choose not to believe in your particular God for whatever reason.

Like I said, some day we'll see who's right, won't we?

Probably not, but whatever makes you feel good.....

Oh but we will, whether anyone likes it or not.

Yes, sir!!!!!!

You have faith that "we will" but that's far from a known truth.

You might just fade away. We know what you believe, but that believing is faith.

It sure looks that way.

It's not me who is scientifically illiterate. Your remark demonstrates the very thing you falsely accuse me of. A Hint: faith is a belief held without the support of evidence. Science gathers and tests evidence. Two opposing principles. Faith allows multiple unsupported beliefs. Science must base its explanations on evidence, testing and review.

Widen your reading.

Once more, there is a Gift, that can be accepted, or not.

It's a personal choice.

Conviction based on evidence is not a choice. The evidence is either sufficient for a conviction or its not. When it's not, yet a belief is held, we call it faith.

Check the Catlick way. Children are born free of original sin. Baptized early on as infants to double the coverage. And I think murder was a cardinal sin. No getting away with that one.

It should probably be more related to "mental competency" rather than just age. Unfortunately there are people who have mental impairment, for any number of reasons and at any stage of their life. If there is a "get into heaven free" for children under a certain age, surely a loving god would also include those without the mental capacity to make proper decisions into heaven as well. The Romans used to keep the disabled (physical or mental) as objects for amusement but Christianity did introduce compassion towards them.

I agree. Jesus thought highly of faith. So did His Apostles and the others who were close to Him. To me, faith is simply confidence that God already did what He said He did, and that God is who He reveals Himself to be in the New Testament, and that He will do everything He’s promised. For me, faith is ultimately a response to God. It’s a belief based on what I consider to be a reality. For me, it’s absolute confidence and absolute trust built on my personal and subjective experience and my personal and subjective evidence.

But my faith...and my salvation...aren’t dependent upon supplying “proof” of the unprovable to those who are unbelievers. It's all by faith, nothing else. And I have no problem with those who see things otherwise. For me, my faith is absolutely and unequivocally reliable and efficacious.

I know Catholics who have moved away from faith - the baptism seems to have worn off. None of them remember the act of having been baptised - were too young at the time to recall I think. But the ones who organised it usually remember.

Cardinal and even mortal sins can be forgiven by repentance. I think you'll find that murder is a mortal sin.

You don't have to be smart to be good and and you don't have to be stupid to be bad.

but you gotta be tough if you gonna be dumb

Not if you vote Democrat.

Science shows us proof events do not occur randomly and are based on intelligent design. Its the crutch so called intelligent people use to justify denying the value of faith.

Muslims have faith, Hindus have faith, Jews, Christian's, etc, have Faith, yet cannot agree amongst themselves on truth.....so much for the reliability or efficacy of Faith.

Take heart. The age at which God imputes guild is twenty. Prior to that they are innocent in His judgment.

For those who want to challenge this I will gladly post lots of Scripture to support it.

Lol...that's because fools listen to other fools ..not God.

They answered the hell outta those questions during the
Inquisition.

Yes, please list. Does this include innocence for those with mental impairments irrespective of age?

As has been said before, you fab up your own definition of “faith” and then go on to build a thesis on a falsehood. Childish actually.

Your definition of faith is not found in the Bible.

Yet again, you are wrong.

This always cracks me up. The "disbelievers" looking to others to be convinced and the "believers" trying to convince them with someone else's words.

I use the standard definition of faith. A word that is used as a blanket term in common usage, trust, confidence, etc...which allows equivocation.

It is you who defines faith in a way that suits your needs. Faith is not the same as confidence or trust built on experience and evidence.

This distinction has been explained time and time again, to no avail. You just assert your own poorly defined version. Never offering a precise definition.

I'm afraid the tribulation has already started and the rapture idea is a fairly recent invention. If that's the ace your counting on I'm thinking it might be a good idea to check your hole card. As for time, what is time to a creator at the center of the universe? It now looks like the 7 day creation was eons. A 7 year tribulation could be and has been centuries. How much more and how bad is anyone's guess.

You said it more politely than I would've.

Interesting that you aussies are so godless.

Bravo

You have some very interesting and unsupported interpretations of scripture IMO. The rapture is supported by scripture, and I believe the Bible in it's entirety, period. God's wrath is explicitly for the non-believer, not the believer. I know that it hasn’t yet started because Scripture says that we will be with the Lord before the antichrist establishes a covenant with Israel that starts the clock ticking for this time of God’s wrath (Dan. 9:27; 2 Thess. 2:3-8)

I Thessalonians 4 (regarding the rapture of the church)
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



You're right about God's timing though, as it has nothing to do with ours.

2 Peter 3:8 New International Version
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Where does Penn State come into all of that?

Until you actually search, you will never see the evidence. Until you see dope heads and drunks become Christian and make a 180 with their life, you'll never understand. These were people that weren't raised to sing the cute songs and memorize scriptures in Sunday school. If this isn't evidence enough I don't know what is.

We need to hit rock bottom, and the 'See The Light."

I don't know that we will ''see the light'' but we are surely headed for rock bottom. I don't quite understand the rush but I understand arithmetic and we are headed for disaster.

I've "searched" and I don't see it. dope heads..hmm, probably not a lot to lose and see a paycheck or a handout, they will say and do almost anything. same with drunks- a moment of clarity? a helping hand? something for free, probably and most likely, or about to die and scared out of their wits. That's the typical story, yeah I've spent a lot of hours in Southern Baptist revival tents and heard all the death bed convert stories to fill a barge. Dope heads and drunks converting don't help your case for a caring "god". And no, that's not near evidence enough. You need to do better than that.

Where are your bible quotes to back that up? You use the Bible to prove the Bible...unbelievable.

No proof, No evidence. Just mumbo jumbo about the "blood of the Lamb" and a "close personal relationship with christ"...what a crock of S hit. what does that even mean?

It means that you are terribly lost and not likely to understand until you open your heart, shut your mouth and set aside your ignorant pride.

If you don’t know what “a close personal relationship” is then you have serious issues.

Dude, I understand that you feel the way that you do; MANY people likely feel the way that you do. And you very likely have good reasons for feeling the way that you do, just as others do who share your sentiments.

Imagine a conversation between Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins...and the Apostle Peter. The New Atheists would start out with their blistering critique of the Bible’s Old Testament and highlight God’s genocidal directives to the Jews to go into a land a kill everybody and everything in it, then they’d go on and on about the dangers of religion and they’d cite all of the atrocities carried out in the name of religion throughout history and especially Christian atrocities.

But...the foundation of the Christian faith is not a cleverly cobbled together group of manuscripts that we call the Bible.

Let’s hear how Apostle Peter might respond...“Fellas, I’m very familiar with the history of my people, and I’ve never questioned it because of how I was raised. But none of that...nothing you’ve said has anything to do with my decision to follow Jesus. Y’all reference the inadequacy of my reasoning, so let me explain my reasoning...I only have one reason. When Jesus was arrested, I ran...and when asked if I knew Him, I lied. And when the Romans crucified Him, He died. And at that time, I was like y’all...I had no faith. I didn’t know what to believe. I had no reason to believe, because I didn’t know what to believe. I’d just spent 3 years of my life following what turned out to be a false prophet, and I had a price on my head.”

“And then He came, and there He was...very much alive. I can’t really argue with anything you’ve said, but I’d like to clarify one thing...my reason for believing isn’t something that I’ve heard or read or had read to me. I believe what I believe because of what I saw...I watched Him die, I know exactly where He was buried, but God raised Him...and I saw Him, and I saw Him more than once. That’s the reason...that’s the only reason...for my faith and my hope.”

And that is the reason for my hope as well.

Just as Jesus did when he answered satan's temptations.....with scripture.

It amazes me how many atheists we have on a sportsman’s Internet forum. Seems to be somewhat of a regional thing. We put on a dove hunt every year that brings in about 30 hunters. We have a BBQ feast at lunchtime where every head bows for a prayer of appreciation. I can’t imagine it being any other way. I pity many of the folks on here, and I hope their hearts change at some point.

Some can see.

Some can see when shown.

Some can never see, especially those whose eyes HE covered in scales.


You make me oh so happy.
Im so glad to "see",
I wont have to deal with you in eternity.

And just as we do with satans minions like strikeu.

Strikeu is so cool. Hes going to do what the Saddusees and Pharasees couldnt do. Hes going to overcome the Word. He has the powa.

And people wonder why so many want nothing to do with organized religion.

Science begins with assumptions. For example, it assumes we exist. It goes on from there with other assumptions, but that example is sufficient. Therefore it is all based on a set of assumptions, and some scientists assumptions vary from others.

Not wanting anything to do with organized religions is a far cry from denying God exists.

I don’t fault anyone that has a problem with “organized religions”. Religions are man’s invention, anything that “man” has created WILL be corrupted!

Science begins with observations. That we exist can be observed experienced and tested.

Perhaps we see the problems with religion and faith more clearly. Each theology claiming that their version is correct and all the others wrong....which must surely ring alarm bells?

Anxiously waiting a response.

I'm not the judge.

You sure sounded like the judge about a week ago.

I'm a PSU grad. I don't like what happened any more than anyone else. These kids that are there have nothing to do with what happened in the past. And as far as I'm concerned Joe got a bad rap. He was a good man and had his players in his heart. Others can think what they want.

It pains me to see the hate towards PSU these days.

Yea, that's what I thought. Gooo PSU

Once upon a time, there was a place called Limbo. That's where all the unbaptized dead babies went.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo#Modern_era

No fugging way, Limbo my azz. Our lord is a forgiving being. He accepts us all at the time of our deaths.

Of coarse pleasure is life's goal.

That is why I wake up in the morning and stroke my wife's hair. That is why I grin and laugh when my grandkids walk in the door. That is why I have a boat and a couple dozen fishing poles and box upon box of tackle to share with kids and grandkids.

And that is why most go to church and pray to their chosen God, for the pleasure.

These things flood our brains with endorphins, which is the very definition of pleasure.

If you live in America today,, and are not enjoying Heaven right now on this Earth, you are doing something wrong.

Enjoy the pleasures life offers. There will not be another chance.

It is good that God has evolved since that time? No?

I'm not saying that I agree with it, just that it is/was Catholic teaching. I never understood it, either.

You are saying that God evolved since the 1400s? No newer chapters in the bible for 1400 years by then. What evidence is there that God evolved then?

So you're going to use the bible as a reference for using the bible to support the bible. In other words you have no independent evidence that can rationally explain your belief. It's like the Hindu woman who believed that the earth was a giant disk on the back of a cosmic turtle. When asked what the turtle was standing on, she said "Oh, it's turtles turtles turtles all the way down".

Science does not show us evidence of intelligent design - quite the contrary.

No, he doesn't "accept everyone at the time of our deaths"

Matthew 7:13-14
New International Version
The Narrow and Wide Gates
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

I thought you were referring to something of eternal importance, not football. PSU shouldn't be allowed to play football now, or ever again, IMO. Never.

There is nothing new under the sun
Ecc 1:9

How, why, and when we exist is not found in science, yet the answer is so easy, even a child often knows. Particularly a child who also knows God.

Yep, your opinion. Good thing you aren't the ruler of all eh

As to this IDC what the bible says, he is not turning away anyone that is thru no fault of their own not up to speed.

Think what you like, I disagree

And for the record I think you are Okay JG

No rational evidence to support anything IN the bible either.

It is all Dogma: "Believe it because I told you so". That's the way this works.

No independent thought allowed. No questions. Don't even THINK about trying to figure out all the fast and loose catch phrases, they're meant to keep you confused.

Read this, sit here and listen to this, now go do this. Go get more people in here because here's the BEST PART:

They all owe me 10% of their entire existence for me telling you all these BS stories.

Understood UP, thank you.

No problem Skank....nothing personal.

It ain't just been Catholics that have said the young people don't go to heaven if they haven't been exposed by a certain age.

I think it's a man made scare tactic.

No way would God turn folks away like that......no way.

Anybody who sees things the way they do probably has good reason to see things the way they do. If I were raised the way that you were raised and/or experienced what you've experienced, it’s very possible that I would see things the way that you do.

How do you know how I was raised?

I spent 3 days a week in a southern Baptist Church until I Joined the Navy when I was 22. I was baptized at 7 years old. I have more time in revival services than in a car. I never missed a sunday service since I was in Diapers. I got jesus shoved down my throat every day of my fugging life. I know what the Bibe teaches, I memorized scriptures for every sunday school class I went to.

In the immortal words of Bono- "I still haven't found what I'm looking for" (David Howell Evans said, "Bono, nobody listens to the lyrics")

I wish, with all my being, that the Bible's teachings were true.

I wish there was a Loving, Caring God who listened to prayer and answered it. I wish there was a God who did all the things that Sunday school taught.

But No matter how much believing the Dogma you do, or trusting, or witnessing you do, it doesn't make sense.

No matter how much baptizing you do, or praying, or bible study, or how many good deeds you do, it doesn't make sense.

the god that I believe in (and yes even earlier in this thread-I said I believe in a higher power) is not the one that The First Baptist Church XYZ professes.

There's a Higher power. That's IT. End of story. All this other crap that gets hung on that tree is just decorations made up by people who want to make a profit from the belief in a higher power.

Sir, I have no idea how you were raised. My point was/is that you probably have good reason for feeling the way that you do about these things. And ‘if’ I’d experienced everything the way that you have, it’s very possible that I’d feel the way that you do too.

The big takeaway I get is "feel."

There's a whole lotta "feel" and very little fact in discussions about religion.

It's always been that way, and it always will.

Pretty sad story actually. Here's to hoping you find peace.

I believe ya’. And I can relate in my own way.

My faith is mine. And I see things the way that I do. To heck with bein’ told what you’re ‘supposed’ to believe just because it’s part of some set of principles laid down as being incontrovertibly true by other men in authoritative positions (like Pope’s and Archbishop’s and other ecumenical patriarch‘s and such). Same goes for formal catechisms, creeds, and confessions. I’ll draw my own conclusions in these matters, rather than have em’ dictated to me by someone else.

.

Yep, the Dover school case showed the failure of Intelligent design.

Children only know what they are taught.

Not disagreeing with ya’. But in this case, “seeing things the way you do” could just as easily have been the words used instead of “feeling the way you do.”

There are certainly charlatans involved in Christianity, and they are driven by greed and self-centeredness.

But with nearly 2.4 billion people professing Christianity worldwide, do you think it’s possible that there’s more to it than just what you’ve mentioned above...? Do you think the early 1st century followers of Jesus, those who were literally closest to Him, had it right...?

I myself am not a fan of organized religion.

If that’s your “big takeaway” then it’s no wonder that you’re as confused as you are. Instead of honestly reading what antlers wrote you picked one word to focus on and twisted it to mean something altogether different from the point he was making, same as strikeu did previously. It’s precisely why intelligent debate is virtually impossible with atheists, they’re intellectually dishonest….or they’re intellectually incapable, probably a little of both.

you know how you can tell if a church is "doing well"? by how much money they have. Ask any church Pastor, even the Pastors who either get paid nothing or very little, the way they know how well the church is doing is the bank account. How much they can buy or spend. if you're a member of any church congregation and especially if you're on one of the "committees" and you don't agree, you're lying.

New parking lot, new fellowship hall, new robes for the choir, new sound system. It's Money. It's always Money. There's a "proper tithing" sermon once a quarter, just to make the congregation feel that much more guilty for not over-giving. It is supposed to "further the Kingdom of god" total BS because it never leaves the church building. Preacher needs a raise, Music director needs a raise, we have to hire someone to do this, or that. A church is one of the greediest bunch of vultures I have ever seen.

Agreed, prayers for you Strikeu. We only go so far

I decided long ago that my monthly gift would be to Saint Judes hospital. I don't care what happens after that. If I die and go away that's okay. More for my kids.

So, you're saying numbers make the theology true?

strikeu, much of what you say about the church nowadays is true. And MANY people share your sentiments.

But there are many people who are drawn to the simple message that God loves people so much that He sent Jesus, His own Son, to pave the way to a relationship with them. This simple message is freeing to them because they feel a need for, and understand grace. And they feel a need for, and understand forgiveness. And this simple message is freeing to them because they don’t hold the perspective or the value system or the way it is-ness that’s represented by much of the church nowadays.

No. Not at all. I’m saying those numbers are representative of the possibility of something other than ‘just’ what strikeu referred to as being the driving force behind the Christian faith.

God evolves continuously, as the Priesthood recognizes the need for evolution.

About 2100 years ago the stick was thrown away and replaced with the carrot, and God evolved into Jesus.

A few centuries later along come Constantine and the Council of Nicaea. God again evolved rapidly.

God evolved with.Luther, and again with every fork and branch of Protestant Churches across the globe.

Do you pray to the same God who directed the burning of witches across the entirety of Europe? The same God who directed his Preists to burn 1000s upon 1000s (possibly millions) alive across Mexico, Spain, and Italy.

Heck, God has evolved just in the last thirty years. Sodomites are now welcomed into his house.

Who are you praying to? Are sodomites not welcomed into your house? What has this world become?

That’s a pretty BROAD assumption about “how well a church is doing”. The church we attend is one of the few churches that I have attended where I have NEVER witnessed them passing the collection plate. It’s a beautiful church with a wonderful membership that does tremendous good throughout our community. The very first time we attended a service there I immediately felt the presence of God there. Unfortunately not all the churches that I’ve worshiped at can say the same. In fact a few of the churches I’ve been to I doubt that God even knew they existed for they only served themselves. The church we now attend rejoices in the fellowship, love, education and service to others that I believe would please the Lord greatly. We cannot help but to leave there feeling refreshed, hopeful and thankful. It’s a beautiful church set just off the bay with expansive views in a beautiful and peaceful setting, it’s been around for a long time and thankfully it continues to thrive! Their youth ministry is what first caught our attention. Our son and then our daughter went to the youth group there and loved it. The summer camps that they run are always filled to capacity with middle and high school students. They spend the week water skiing, swimming, learning and strengthening their relationship with the Lord. It’s as good a youth program as I’ve ever seen and if I ever hit the lottery they’d be getting a big chunk.

Once again…..Our church has NEVER taken collection, never passed the collection plate, never asked for money! There is a drop box by the doors for those so inclined but there’s no high pressure sales tricks like I’ve unfortunately witnessed at other churches. We focus on our Lord and Savior and leave the idolatry of money to others.

That’s a really good charity Skankhunt42. I don’t know of a better or more worthwhile charity than St. Jude Children's Research Hospital.

Raise your hand if your viewpoint has been changed.

strikeu;
Good afternoon sir, I hope the day down south is a tad less blustery than we're getting up here on our side of the medicine line and that all who matter in your world are well.

With respect, I'll offer a different barometer or measure of how a church might be doing "well".

Church, done right, should have a greater positive impact on the community and targeted parts of the world as a group than would be possible as individuals.

As examples, the church I was involved in for years had a program where we'd help folks move - pickups, trailers, strong backs sort of thing. We had a community pantry program for those who needed some assistance in that area.

For awhile we operated a free small drop in cafe where hot beverages, sandwiches and baked goods - plus a warm and dry place for awhile, was available.

We raised the money to buy the land and put up a building in the Philippines for a small medical clinic, then bought the supplies and supplemented the staff payroll. A typhoon wiped it all away after about a decade, but the reports we had back were that it had a positive net benefit to the locals.

Yes there were salaries and building expenses for the local building, but they were kept well within reason - something I can speak to because when I was on the board I was asked to be treasurer and thus knew where every dime went - well and came from for that matter.

If a group or church define success or doing well by a financial number or even by the number of folks who show up there, I'd have to respectfully suggest they're unclear on the concept, you know?

None of this says your experience is wrong in any way, shape or form however sir, it's merely to say that there can be better or better said, more positive results from church if the will is there to do so.

Do many churches miss that goal by a wide margin or are they as I've suggested "unclear on the concept"? Surely.

That doesn't mean they all have to be or can't strive to make a meaningful difference to the lives of those around them - I believe anyways sir.

Hopefully that made some sense, all the best and good luck on your remaining hunts this fall.

Dwayne

Churches love people like you. you're so freaking naïve, you're a church's wet dream. you're like an alcoholic in a liquor store on payday. keep doing what you're doing my man, you're storing up riches in Heaven.

AcesNeights, that sounds like a pretty special congregation that y’all belong to.

I used to attend a church in South Oklahoma City. The first time I ever went there, I was zoomin’ around on my VTX 1800 on a late Saturday afternoon...having no intention of goin’ to church...and I saw their sign out front that said “Services Tonight at 6 pm”. I looked at my watch, it was 5:50 pm...and I swear I just felt pulled to go...so I whipped into the parkin’ lot, and went in, wearin’ my shorts and tank top and tennis shoes. From the get-go, to say I was “blown away” woulda been an understatement. At the end of the service, they passed around some wicker baskets for a collection...and the pastor said, “if you’re an adult, and you’re in need of food or shelter or clothing, if you see some money in that basket that would help you meet that need, please feel free to reach in there and take it.” That resonated with me. I was floored. I continued to go to that church for the remainder of my time in Oklahoma. The services were edifying and uplifting, and the content was helpful and relevant; the communication was engaging and the setting was appealing. I felt the presence of God in that particular church more than in all of the other brick and mortar churches that I’d ever been to put together...!

And that pastor said the same thing about that collection, every single time, at the end of the service when a collection was being taken. I’d never experienced anything like that before at a church, nor have I experienced anything like that since, at a church.

Sodomites welcome in my house? Fugg no! They might prey upon my grand children.

Who do I pray to? When I get down on my knees and beg the wife for ............................................ permission to buy a firearm in a new cartridge designation......does that count?

Contemplating the possibility that we may be mistaken about our cherished beliefs can be a difficult thing to do.

Yep and laughing at your last post on this thread. lol

Give it to the kids, how can you go wrong?

Who do you beg to to stick it in her azz?

Don't forget the Shriners Hospitals for Children.
https://lovetotherescue.org

Speaking of sodomites, until now I had.not known you are one. But hey it's your fantasy.

And that is about the kindest thing I could say about one who pretends to be a man while disparaging a man s wife.

Does your interpretation of God actually listen to prayers submitted by those of your displayed moral proclivities?

Keep it simple folks, Jesus loved us first, love Him back.

can you please explain who jesus is? without using the now debunked bible?

NO!

What about those people before Jesus, gods and religions made an appearance?

Some of us have to hit rock bottom, then ask for Help.

That sounds like the kind of church and pastor that I could appreciate. I also want to add that I appreciate your insight and opinions when these religious threads pop up. Your thoughts almost always mirror mine and the way in which you’re able to convey them is refreshing. Thanks for your contributions Antlers, you’re one of the good ones. 👍

Thanks little buddy but the truth is you don’t have the slightest clue.

And Hindus, Buddhists, free thinkers, etc.......

Help in what form and from whom, that is the question. Doctors, Lawyers, Mechanics, offer their own form of help.....which people get for a fee.

I don't know for sure, do you?

I am guessing you are atheist. I am not, atheism doesn't make sense to me. But you are absolutely right about contemplating that we might be mistaken about cherished beliefs being difficult. I had to come to admit to myself that Christianity and Jesus had been hijacked and the bible tampered with. They couldn't write him out or throw away his teachings but they brought some writings in to ''explain'' him and annul the law and the prophets.

His closest followers who were with Him during His ministry on earth believed Him to be the Messiah, the Son of God, who had come to save the people. And they believed this before ‘the Bible’ ever existed.

I believe the Gospel. But I don’t believe the Gospel because it’s in the Bible. I believe the Gospel was included in the Bible because it (the Gospel) is reliable and accurate. I believe the Gospel is reliable and accurate because of who wrote it and when they wrote it. But I don’t believe it because the Bible tells me so, this has nothing to do with the Bible. I believe it because Matthew who was an eyewitness tells me so and wrote about it separately and believed it; Mark who knew eyewitnesses wrote about it separately and believed it; Luke who thoroughly investigated these things wrote about it separately and believed it; Peter who was an eyewitness wrote about it separately and believed it; John who was an eyewitness wrote about it separately and believed it; and James (the brother of Jesus) who didn’t follow Jesus during His earthly ministry, who showed up late to the game, who shows up after the resurrection and becomes a leader in the Jerusalem church, believed his brother died and was buried and rose from the dead, and referred to his brother as his Lord, and he wrote about it separately and believed it...and that’s why I believe it.

Antlers, are you available as a guest speaker ?

laffin’

Thank you Sir for bringing some class and God's intended message. Yes there are crooked churches, pastors etc. However, these are people. The same as you and me. Some good, some bad but the word of God is true. Don't follow the people, follow the word.

That's all people do nowadays, no moral compass anymore.

Pretty much the idea that there is evidence that Christ was Who He said He was. Paul told the Corinthians that we were of all people to be most pitied if Christ is not risen from the dead.

There is an unfortunate reality that most people in the church don’t understand that evidence is the reasoning behind their faith rather than their personal experience; Objective reality verses their subjective personal experience.

My favorite expression is " The mystery of faith"
I am a believer, and see evidence all around.
Humans don't have the capability to assess the existence of our maker, and the more they use " hard, cold facts" to explain our existence the more we go down that rabbit hole.
Quantum physics , scares mainstream science and really flips the linear ,time/ space thinking up side down . Oddly, this is never included in " rational" big bang style thinking.
Faith is mysterious, and is meant to be.. it is yours to choose.
Thumping a Bible is disrespectful to our good book, in my book.

I am with you on that line, my problem is there are many, many that do not have that capability while at the same time understand completely what is expected and what should be done - and anything that deviates from that is ignorance on someone elses part.

The anti Christian presentation on these threads is a good example of post modern argument. The presenter deconstructs the reasoning behind the position while never discussing or debating the substance.

It’s the same approach that progressives have been using for a few decades. The post modernist will continue to tear down no matter the response because there is typically no interest in the subject. No matter the subject each rebuttal is simply another opportunity for deconstruction. The deconstruction is directly or indirectly aimed at an important pillar of culture and society.

Interesting thought. By Bible thumping are you speaking about the emotional personal experience approach that many Christians default to as opposed to reasoning and evidence in things related to the faith?

Looking thru comments here it is no different than the liberal bias in our world today. You are labeled a Bible thumper if you say anything at all. Congrats to the tolerant ones. Sarcasm icon needed.

Unless someone at some point comes up with another option, It's either intelligent design or multiverse theory (infinite universes) in that laws of physics in our universe favor life down to the minute detail, including the mass of sub-atomic particles. So either there is a creator with a design or the universe itself has fulfilled that role.

I'm a believer in evolution with a decent amount of science under my belt during my education and even evolution points to intelligent design in my mind. It doesn't make sense for random particles to become more orderly to me. Biologists often seem to be athiests by default. Physicists seem to have more believers in a higher power, though that belief doesn't appear to be mainstream. There are a couple of good books on God and science by physicists out there.

A belief that requires a great amount of faith in my opinion is Atheism. Saying, "I don't know if there is a God" or "I believe there is a God" requires less faith to me than saying "there is absolutely no God."

Wrong again....

Hebrews 13:8
New International Version
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever

How can you even believe that quote?

Jesus Christ did not even exist until about 2100 years ago. Nor did the Holy Ghost.

If there is any mention of a Holy Trinity in the OT, it was never mentioned in any class I took.

The book of Hebrews is interesting in this regard in that it paints a picture of Jesus transcending time and talks about how Jesus justified those that came before Him on a human time line. To the point that it mentions a character known as "the King of Righteousness" and "the Prince of Piece" that randomly shows up in Genesis and upon encountering Him, Abraham and Lott (I believe) stop what they're doing and have communion with Him (an offering of bread and wine).

Hebrews is also one of the many reasons I believe the seven actual days of creation theory to be unbiblical. As it says something along the lines of on the seventh day, God rested, therefor enter His rest (i.e. the seventh day is ongoing). I think we as humans really miss it regarding prophecy, theology and judgment in that we think in a finite, linear timeline and God resides in the infinite. I also think this is one of the reasons as to why Christ, who came to Earth as a human, is the bridge to God the Father. It's not a punishment from God that we have to go that route. It's for reasons including that humans short circuit when faced with the infinite.

I don't think it's known as to whom wrote Hebrews, but whomever it was had a good grasp of the concept of God and space and time and God residing outside of our space and time.

All something to think about.

State sponsored school/university?

Did you try Wiki or Snopes?

Probably attended a Libertard University.

I am curious… how did you come to the “understanding” that Jesus didn’t exist until “about 2100 years ago. Nor did the Holy Ghost.”

Jesus was the Fourth Man in the fire with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

Maybe. Or maybe just any old angel? Gabriel?

Do you think Nebuchadnezzar received salvation? I suspect he did. Also Pontius Pilate. Maybe even Judas.

As with many, it is between God, and the man.

Actually Presbyterian.

Enlighten me.

You are always handy with a biblical quote. Surely YOU can find mention of Christ or the Holy Spirit in the OT if such exists.

There are many places in the Old Testament where the Holy Spirit is referenced. A few examples:

https://biblehub.com/isaiah/63-10.htm
https://biblehub.com/psalms/51-11.htm
https://biblehub.com/genesis/1-2.htm
https://biblehub.com/isaiah/11-2.htm

The Old Testament is about Jesus. After His resurrection, Jesus explained to His disciples that He is the central figure in the Old Testament:

https://biblehub.com/luke/24-27.htm

We have words attributed to Jesus, not by Jesus himself.

Yep, organized religion derailed by the vipers, false jews. They are the ones in organized religion who accepted thr satanic controlled govt plan into accepting the 501c3 deal to not tax churches if they wouldnt tell about the satanic suckers in govt like Biteme, Zero, Piglosi, etc rather than taking to the supreme court and depending on the Constitution to keep them tax free.

So, churches gave up the right to discuss the correct path their congregation should take regarding supporting politicians who have us in the pickle we are in.

Clue: false jews like the Pharasees and Sadducees who were the religious pukes of the day who turned on Jesus.

....they joined the Southern Empire (Judah, Benjamin) who called themselves Jews and worked as scribes (and wrote themselves into the kingdom as jews) and worked themselves into positions of power AND INTO THE PREISTHOOD.

Humm, kind of like our modern USA where most all politicians had to be members of Christian religions in our early history, and now the false jews have also worked their way into positions of importance (soros, Rockefeller, Gates, Zuckerberg, Bezos...).

Yeah, the Inquisition was the fault of false Jews. 🙄

I do not see any OT quotes in that drivel, and certainly nothing to show recognition of the Holy Trinity prior to Christ's death.

Thanks AS.

Reading these verses, I have to disagree. The Spirit of God as mentioned in the OT in several places is a far different thing than is "The Holy Spirit" defined as a separate entity and separate member of a "Holy Trinity" by most Christians today.

The OT God is by definition a Jealous God. He did not share his throne with anyone.

To claim otherwise would be heresy and as likely to get one stoned as would harvesting wheat on a Saturday.

Where is he who speaks in biblical phrases?

That jealous isnt the kind we mean.

I can be an uncle, a father, a son, a brother.

Robert can be called, Robert, Bo, Rob, ect.

"God in three persons."

Lots of copying and pasting of bible verses, biblical memes, back and forth of who is going to burn hotter in hell-fire, but no one addressed my question from back on page 1.

As a Christian, are you offended by some of the behaviors and racist posts on the campfire, or not?

Seriously.

I have black friends who love hunting and fishing, vote republican and are true conservatives. Are they not deserving of a place at your campfire?

I ask again, what would Jesus do?

He who denies Christ speaks of drivel. Ha. Too Freaking Funny.

My answer explained much to you, regardless of what you wanted it to. The truths from Him and believers doesnt satisfy you or the Whore of Babylon. I dont make men see who HE has made blind with scales on their eyes.

Well, I don't know if offended is the right word, but painting an issue with such a broad brush is downright ignorant, and wrong. There are good folks and bad folks of every race and color no doubt. We have a heart problem in America nowadays, a human condition problem. Jesus would tell us to love the sinner and hate the sin IMO.

So, you can not find any mention of a triumvirate godhead in the OT either?

You could have just said so. A lot less typing.

There are many places in the Old Testament where the Holy Spirit is referenced. A few examples:

“Holy Spirit” ~ Isaiah 63:10
“Holy Spirit” ~ Psalms 51:11
“Spirit of God” ~ Genesis 1:2
“Spirit of the Lord” ~ Isaiah 11:2

The Old Testament is about Jesus. After His resurrection, Jesus explained to His disciples that He is the central figure in the Old Testament:

“And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.” ~ Jesus (Luke 24:27)

There are several descriptives of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, just as there are several descriptives of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament. The types of descriptives of the Holy Spirit in both are the same types of descriptives. The Holy Spirit of the OT and the Holy Spirit of the NT are one and the same. There was no mention by you of the “Holy Trinity” in your post above that I initially responded to. You simply mentioned whether “Christ or the Holy Spirit” could be found in the Old Testament; they clearly can be and are.

The doctrine of the Trinity was revealed in the New Testament, and there’s no explicit mention of that doctrine in the Old Testament.

Not as a separate entity though. Triune theology goes beyond holy spirit as an aspect of God.

I can't understand the trinity doctrine.

Jaguar: Over in the other discussion you mentioned the Blood Moon Tetrad, and God's covenant with the U.S. and I asked for more information. I've never heard of either. I also made note that both the Jehovah Witnesses and LDS both claimed to me that they had replaced Israel in the covenant to which I replied in the negative to them. What about the Tetrad and the Covenant if you would explain them please?

They are descriptions of your relationships and social roles, father, son, uncle....not your physical makeup in a single body.

If you’re on a continuous search to be offended, you’ll likely always find what you’re looking for. Personally, I don’t get too “offended” by much of nothing. I do find back stabbing, lying, cheating and screwin’ people over offensive, but not “behaviors and racist posts on the Campfire.” WWJ really do...? He'd likely surprise us. That's what He always did with those who hung around Him enough to think they knew what He would do. I think He'd likely say, first and foremost, "I love you, and I understand your struggles, and I’m here for you.”

What’s it mean to be a Presbyterian?

Upon what basis can a person be defined as such?

So, please tell me what you are getting at. What is significant in your failure to find a reference….or a verse…. or?….in the Old Testament that mentions “Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit” … if that is indeed what you are looking for…. Seems so….

Why is that significant?

I see some insight in Wabigoon’s post.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all have differing relationships… both within themselves and also with us….they each have differing roles.

Of course, it is just downright silly to infer that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are made up “in a single body.”

Actually, I don't think I've ever "Thumped", a Bible.

We don't have our physical parts wandering off doing things of their own volition. Saying that there are different aspects to God, which is not contradictory, is not the same as saying that there are three autonomous personages rolled into one, a Triune God. Which is not supported in the OT.

We keep spitting hairs.

You don’t need ancient textual props when your Messiah comes back to life from the dead. The centerpiece of the apostles’ preaching is not the Old Testament — it’s the resurrection of Jesus.

Modern textual criticism ignores the necessity for the Christian to interpret the OT in light of the NT.

Modernist Presbyterians and the mainline in general were particularly guilty of this deconstructionism.

In the beginning, our faith was an event-based faith. But since then it has become text-based. Because of this, as the Bible goes, so goes the faith of most Christians. That’s unfortunate and unnecessary. Apostle Paul said something different. He said as the resurrection goes, so goes our faith. (1 Cor. 15:17).

Have you read the creeds of the Church and studied their history?

I'm a simple man, Faith in the Lord Jesus is my Salvation.

I know you well enough to k ow that you recognize the internal contradiction of what you just said…

I believe that Christianity hangs much more on history of actual events like you do, but also that to that end the God who raised His Son from the dead could hand down a reliable written account of those historical events.

Who is Jesus? Was He created by God the Father? A man who was struck holy by God to serve a purpose on earth? What makes Him worthy of your faith?

Asking these genuinely not rhetorically.

i think you know.

I’m not advocating for theological change. This is purely methodological. I believe the first-century approach is best. I believe the first-century apologetic is best. And adjusting our approach isn’t a new idea. The Apostle Paul said, “I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.”

I think I agree but flesh that out.

What do you mean exactly?

For the first 300 years of Christianity, the debate centered on an event, not on a book.

I understand that but your comments in this thread have demonstrated how they’re connected; when attempting to point to the authority of the former we utilize the latter.

When is the line between them crossed? It’s messy.

But I agree we often seem to worship the word without recognizing it as a means to knowing and worshipping the Word.

In Matthew, it is WRITTEN that they worshipped the Lord.
Nobody worshipped the manuscripts.
I follow His command to teach and to preach His gospel/ good news/ message, as that is central to God's command before He left for heaven.

Then water baptism is the first step of obedience to the new believer who has already received the gift of everlasting life.
Lastly, "
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you..."
That's The complete teachings of Christ that He commissioned them to teach to new believers for all future generations.
The way we know this is by the circulation of letters, missionary journeys and the other books to every land. Paul the Apostle began doing this shortly after the dispersion.

Conclusion of the book of Matthew:
"And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

What are we to teach all nations? Verse 19
This is what they were supposed to teach all nations ( as are we.)

Conclusion of Mark:

" And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."