Well, I don't know if this is the correct spot for this post, but I didn't know where else to put it.

I am building a new home and am installing a 12'x12' concrete vault underground. There will be a vault door accessing it from an interior room that I will have set up as my office.

Here is where it gets good. I am going to put in a single station, 25 yard underground shooting range. It will be made of 36" concrete pipe. I have some ideas on how to build a bullet trap of sorts, but would like to get everyone's feedback. Again, it will be underground and besides the bullet trap, good old mother earth will not allow any stray bullets.

I'm using the round concrete pipe out of pure economical reasons. I wanted to use square concrete box culverts, but they are WAY too much money.

Give me some ideas on how to set up a pulley type target system. It won't see a lot of use, so an industrial grade exhaust fan should be enough I would think...I'm not going to be too worried about the lead either. If it builds up, I will remove it. I know that there is some inherent risk to this, but I will deal with it.

I am going to build a set of doors to seal the tunnel off from the vault when not being used. I thought that I would glue some foam egg crate stuff all around the inside of the tunnel for about the fist 8 feet or so. I think that will at least help cut down some of the noise...still definately going to use inner and outer ear protection!!

What do you think? It is too late to use anything other than the 36" concrete pipe, as it had to be intragal to the concrete vault. So that part is already in place. The rest is open to ideas though.

While I'm at it, what are your ideas on a 25 yard target set up? I was going to do 50 yards, but this is not gonna be cheap even at 25! The way I looked at it was that if I couldn't do a full 100 yard range, then a 50 yard range wouldn't really be worth the $$$ over 25 yards...let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Todd

Make sure it is venter real well as in positive air flow towards the target area. that will keep you safe from inhilation of lead fumes. The next thing is lighting on the target and a way to get into the trap to sift the scrap lead occasionaly a simple pully arangment will work to remove and replace targets .

Lighting will be provided from a narrow beam spot light mounted at the "mouth" of the tunnel. Since it is only 25 yards, I figure that will be fine.

I thought that I would use a simple grain bin aeriator at the target end of the tunnel...maybe set up a fan, besides the industrial exhaust vent at the shooting position.

Todd

Might check around and see if there would be a source for old truck from 18 wheelers. Could maybe use them as you shooting ally. Bolt them together through the sidewall and cover them up with dirt. Your so close to the reality of a hundred yard range that maybe you could sell the first born to come with the other 75 yards.

Ask Saeed over on www.accuratereloading.com about lighting and bullet traps etc. I believe his shooting lab has one that is 100m or so.

Brent

Keeping the water out is going to be one of your biggest issues.
But I would like to have one myself. Good luck.

Tarheel

Tarheel,
There won't be any water issues. It is set on a pretty good hill, and will be oriented to drain if there ever was any water that found its way in. Here in Montana we don't have to worry about that too much.

Todd

Ventilation will be your biggest challenge.

Our newest police station put an underground range in, it took them a year to get the ventilation right.

I've got one o'them.

I call it a "basement".

Well, I've thought about that and here is where I am.

A) It is just me, and maybe my wife shooting...not a lot of use

B) I don't have to deal with OSHA or any other regulatory bodies.

C) I am venting both the target end and the "shooting" end.

More ideas, please.

Todd

Well without knowing the set-up, I would consider an attic fan somehow installed to suck up air and blow it out through a duct, and at the same time creating low pressure to draw in clean ambient air at the same time through a second vent. It shouldn't be too expensive to incorporate such a simple system while building, but might be a pain after the fact if then decided it is needed.

Install the attic fan at the target end and clean air intake at the shooters end. Draw the fumes away from the shooter.

Wow - I've got a major case of envy. I've often dreamed of having an underground range to avoid noise in an urban area.

Barkoff,
This is pretty much what I was thinking. I was going to use a simple bin aeriator for the target end. A bin aeriator is kind of like an attice fan, and it can be powered or not. That, coupled with the fan/exhaust set up at the shooting end should be enough ventilation.

Todd

To provide air flow for an exhaust fan at the target outside air will probably be best at the shooting end of the tunnel. The air has to come from somewhere and since you are exhausting to the outside the air should be provided from the same source...check cfm ratings on the fan you will use.
Unburned powder will accumulate in the egg crate over time and you will eventually get a flash when it eventually ignites...might get intresting then. Friend of mine had this happen once using a sound deadening box outdoors...He said it "whoofed" and was an eyeopening experience.
I've toyed with the idea of installing a camera at the target on my outdoor range...might be feasible in your case if you want to go to the trouble although your range is shorter...
Sounds like a fun project you have going...

I had not thought of that. Although in a 36" diameter pipe, that would be a lot of shooting to get much accumulation. Most definately worth noting and watching for!!

I'm not sure about a camera, but I have thought about a semi-permanant chrony.

Also, the suggestion of a fresh air intake at the shooting end makes sense...I'll have to work on that. I had just planned on venting both ends.

Thanks,
Todd

Unburned powder build up is a real issue.I remember Rick Jamison discussing it relative to a baffled tube he was shooting through to deaden sound.Perhaps you could find a large piece of lightweight tubing of some kind that would fit just inside the concrete tube for several feet that you could pull out and clean occasionally,though if you will be firing from the room several feet away from the pipe,likely just vacuuming the floor would be all you need.
The bullet trap is easy.Get a sheet of the steel they use to cover road construction when they want to allow traffic over a section they are not working on,but haven't yet finished,set it at a 45 degree angle to deflect the bullets down into a foot or so of all purpose sand.Your local road dept. can probably hook you up with the steel plate,and even someone to cut it to size.
One full size plate,cut into three or four sections,laid down one behind the other ought to withstand just about anything you care to shoot.Filling in behind them with dirt ought to deaden pretty much all the impact noise.The steel might be a bit expesive to acquire and install ,but you won't likely ever have to replace it.

I'd be careful using a vacuum to pick up powder what with static electricity and all. Seems I recall somewhere about "woofing" happening while cleaning up explosive dust with said vacuum as well.

A simple swamp cooler fan ducted should be enough to force air in and out, and with a high-medium-low switch you could have a choice of the amount of air flow. The fan could be mounted in a box on the surface at the end of the tunnel just like it is on the roof, drawing air through the tunnel from a vent placed just outside the wall to avoid drawing air from the house out the tunnel. Especially in 30 below weather.

You might want to run some conduit in the same trench as the pipe so you can have lighting at the other end. Maybe this is already in the plans, as you're talking venting both ends.

Anyway, the ranges I've used that have lighting above the targets are much easier to use than those that try to floodlight the entire area. This could be worse if you're trying to shine a light down a pipe...I think you really don't want to see the pipe, just the target.

The swamp cooler and the lighting of the target end are both good ideas. I had thought about the "shadow" effect of lighting just the shooting end...kind of like looking down a funnel. I will definately change the lighting plans.

Todd

Here are some pictures of the early stages of the range.
First, the 12'x12' poured vault. The picture is a little deceptive, although it does seem a little small now that it is actually in progress!! That is a four foot opening for the Liberty vault door. The 36" culvert will be at bench level in one corner of the vault, and extend for 25 yards.

A couple pictures of the delivery. These things each weigh 4180lbs. I never would have guessed that they were that heavy!! Anyway, 36" inside diameter, and 8' long. I know this is gonna be loud, but I'm a little worried about just HOW loud!! Definately inner and outer ear protection!





Todd

Years ago an acquaintance built a 50 yard underground shooting range similar to what you are proposing. He excavated a trench, then installed 45 gallon drums, welded them together and cut an opening in the concrete cellar wall. Access to the targets was via an opening at the end of the garden.
Inside the cellar he had a mattress laying on the floor (for prone shooting) and at the end of the tube a piece of plywood with a hole to stick the muzzle through.
When a shot was fired the plywood cover would back about 6" into the cellar at the shooting end. Definitely noisy!
When his wife was home and upstairs watching TV he always gave her fair warning by hollering out "fire in the Hole" just before shooting.
Why she never threw the lot of out I never understood. Fun times!

Good for you Big sky. Waaaay too much fun! (making and owning and using). Please share progress reports and finished pics.

By the way if you berm that sucker with at least 48inches of good solid soil and it will double as a fallout shelter too.

Have you thought about running water into it? What kind of electricity are you routing to it?

StubbleDuck, yes this is a fun project and it is gonna pay off with YEARS of great fun and convienience.

I'm not sure what you mean about the water? I will not be plumbing it as a fallout shelter if that is what you mean. If you mean water getting into via seepage or ground water, that won't happen either. It will sit high on a hill in a virtual gravel pit...very dry with good drainage.

I am going to run power to it to supply both a light at the target end as well as a vent.

Todd

Very cool, I know a guy that has a 100 yard range in his basement. IIRC the pipe is only 2' dia, and he has a 'rabbit' on a wooden track that he pulls the target back and forth on.

Did you look into HDPE pipe? Its about half the price, you could have had a 50 yard range. Might have absorbed the sound better?

What I really wanted was 4'x6' concrete box culvert. At $385.00 per foot it became VERY clear VERY fast that this was not the way I was going to go!!

I came upon these 36" culverts at a concrete company here in Montana that supplies highway projects. The 10 lengths that I got were considered "culls" because there is some damage to the tongue end of the pipes. The manager of the yard gave them to me just to get rid of them!! I couldn't believe my good fortune! Talk about saving a bunch of money.

Todd

Nice snag! That stuff goes for about $100/lf.

Just being paranoid here, but the vent fan at each end also provides an easy entrance for bad guys - right into your vault. Perhaps some heavy rebar welded across the entrance in a 3-inch grid?

Other than that, envy blooms here as well.

Running water ..... as in tap water.

I understand that may not be a concern. And if the closest source was quite a ways away, cost could indeed be substantial.

But ground seepage looked highly unlikely from your pics.

BambiStew, dang nice snag!! I almost fell off my stool when the guy said he would give it to me for free. He even spent the better part of an hour loading it on the semi I hired. I would say I got pretty lucky!

RockyRaab, that is exactly what I was planning, tightly gridded, 3/4 inch rebar in the vent hole, although the vent will not be near big enough to get into.

I actually thought about making an "escape route" through the tunnel, and having a man-sized exit at the target end with some kind of latching mechanism that could only be operated from inside. Then I was going to build a tool shed or somthing over it. I think I will steer away from that direction though...

Todd

Why not still build your "escape route?" But leave it buried from the outside?

T'was me, I'd do exactly that but also have a shovel and fireman's ax or crowbar or whatever else I needed to pound through a piece of culvert or whatever served as the "hatch," unless you would actually use a hatch.

Leave yourself the option of that alternative way out in other words. What if someday you somehow lock yourself in? How would you get out?

There is soundproofing material available to line the culvert pipe with. Might be worth looking into.

This is a really good idea and one I have thought about a lot. Having worked at a range, I have some comments: Lead poisoning is a REAL issue. It's not the bullets, but rather the priming compounds. A thick angled steel plate will deflect ANYTHING down. You need to make a catch basin of some sort to catch the bullets and then you can lie on a creeper or furniture dolly and scoot down to clean them out when they get to be too many.

I would put the light and fan at the end of the tunnel. Have a stack coming up that is baffled and put the fan on it with a switch in the vault. If you line the pipes with anything to deaden sound it will become lead contaminated eventually. Make sure it's something you can replace or clean. You have to be careful not to infiltrate your house with the lead contamination.

We had to be tested every year- I think it was an OSHA requirement but in any case, you get the picture.

I too am build a vault but no shooting tunnel and a lot smaller door than your's. I found a door that is 80x30- takes up less of my vault space and much cheaper than what Liberty quoted me.

Dennis

WesJ, I was just thinking egg crate foam rubber. What did you have in mind? Where would I be able to research it a little?

dennisinaz, I know that OSHA makes a big deal out of the health issues. Besides venting at both ends, and creating a positive pressure situation so air flows into the tunnel and towards the target, what else could/should I do?

The Liberty door truely is expensive, but it is not much bigger than what you are using. The "clear" opening is actually 80x32, while the rough is 82x40. I mis-stated that it was a 48" opening earlier, but its only 40.

I have a VERY nice Liberty Presidential Model. It is the 50 cubic foot model and is beautiful!! I worked a trade out with a local Liberty dealer. I REALLY hate to get rid of the Presidential, but I couldn't believe how much the vault door is. The Presidential is their top of the line model, and the vault is quite a bit more money!!

Todd

I was quoted about $3200 or so for a Liberty vault door. I am going to get one from the guy in CA that sells them on Ebay. I think they run about $1500 or so for a 30x80. A really nice one with the Imron paint job is about $2200. I just couldn't see paying the Liberty price when they won't warranty them. Ft. Knox and Private Security Products will give you a full lifetime warranty on their doors. Liberty told me no warranty on vault DOORS- only the gunsafes.

I would try styrofoam baffles arranged and an angle to break of the sound. It would be easy to throw a coat of paint over and cheap enough to throw away when needed.

I think if you have some positive airflow down the tunnel it would be enough. I would not wear my shoes back into the house after being in that vault for fear of tracking lead everywhere.

Just my 2 cents

Todd
Any quarries in your neck of the woods? Old conveyor belts make great back stops and should help with noice.
If your air flow moves from the shooting position to the impact zone should help with the fumes and ejecta.
A pie in the sky suggestion. If your pipe sloops towards the inpact zone and there's drainage out of the impact box you could hose the pipe down and wash the ejecta out.
Putting a heavy plastic curtain across the shooter's end of the pipe will limit pollution and noice. Something similar to what warehouses have to keep cold in or out.
I'd bet that 10 feet of egg crate foam at the shooters end of the pipe would work and still be easy to remove and install.

Jim

Didn't read through all the posts, so apologize if this has been mentioned. I'd give Karl a call at Kampfeld Custom. He has an underground rifle range (100 yards if I'm not mistaken). He has access to the target area from outdoors IIRC. Very nice set-up for working loads, etc. Can't even hear it upstairs I'm told. If I were gonna build one for handgun shooting, I think I'd just go all the way so I could do both.

Good luck.

As short as yours is going to be, you might consider having just a little slope, maybe 1/4"/foot and then you could wash it out. dig a little well at the target end and fill with gravel as a dry well. You wouldn't need to wash it down very often, but it would hurt once a year or so. You might even use carpet scraps over styro and then just pitch the carpet in a dumpster once a year.

If you really want to quit it down, you can make a giant suppressor out of a 55 gal drum and put a 6" perforated pipe through the middle and fill the drum with something to deaden the sound. Maybe lathe turnings or something like that. This would really help with noise.

More pictures coming soon...

Todd

Those blocks are too cool, 25 yards may have you working to keep them straight, 100 could be a nightmare.

I am putting up a high wall building about 40' by 50' that will be on enough of a grade that there will be about a 7' foundation at the back. I thought I'd dig a room under the front and run the tunnel out the back. I figure it will be easier to pour concrete walls than use pipe.

For the time being I made a big silencer tube to set up with a bench that I shoot through, with the siding and deck work I do the nailers make more noise than this does.

A few more pictures...progress has been slowed just a bit, trying to wrap up the detached garage/men's crisis center. It will actually be more like a nice living room that you can park a car in when finished. It also has a fun bath room and a loft, so it could be used as a "mother in law" suite if need be.





I'll be gone with work for six weeks starting on the 13th. I'm gonna miss all of the progress on the house. Bad timing, but what do you do?

More to follow, but it could be awhile...

Todd

Todd:

Sounds like fun. My advice? Ditch the foam. I've seen the video of the station nightclub fire and it is NOT PRETTY.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire

Foam caught on fire and instantly choked the whole club in smoke. The ventilation fans you're describing are NOT UL listed for smoke exhaust. They will fail and your basement will fill with smoke....QUICKLY.

Everything else sounds awesome.

Todd,

You don't need to line the RCP with eggcrate foam. Just put some sort of noise barrier up on the wall you are shooting through and keep the shooting port as small as possible but still functional. The soil in which the RCP is buried will absord the sound the oinly noise will be from your vents to the outside. The insulated wall/shooting port will cut down but not eliminate the sound in your shooting room. You will still need hearing protection. How do I know this? I have a friend with a 100 yd underground range. You are lucky to be able to dig yours in. He had to blast rock to intall his and it is 72" CMP.

Saeed uses sand for his trap. Can't imagine where he gets that.

Mike

It's great you don't have to deal with OSHA, but how about
state regulatory agencies and county zoning commissions? Have
you checked out all that? Might be a good idea to get a lawyer
to do a thorough search, for a reasonable (and pre-negotiated)
fee.

Just sayin'....

Thank you everybody for your input and ideas! As I said earlier, I'm out of town for work until mid May, so no new pictures. A real bummer that I'm missing out on all the progress.

The egg crate foam inside the tube will be nixed. We are installing a 1500 cfm attic fan on the target end that will be switched in the vault. I just can't imagine that not being enough air exchange to keep things clear and healthy!?! Maybe I'm wrong?? We'll see I guess!!

Everything is on the legal up and up. I guess I kinda thought that there would be a few headaches in putting this in, but there were no legal issues at all. I'm putting in an acre pond/lake on the property as well. That is were all the headaches and regulatory BS raise their ugly heads!! It will be well worth it though to step out my door and be able to cast a fly line for my own trout!!

Once I get back home I will post more pictures. The pond should be started by then too.

Todd

Todd,

You are making me envious!

Terribly sorry...

Todd

Todd,

As ArkyPete says make sure that the flow of air is from the firing point to the target...

I would use a fan to suck air into the fault and then another fan to blow it it out at the target end...

I would also consider having an access point at the target end as well; it would obviously need to be lockable but putting decent steel doors shouldn't be difficult at this stage of the construction..

Regards,

Pete

I plan on buildng an underground shooting range near the city we are moving by, I will have it under my my shop/gun store, I plan on using multiplte sea contianers for the structure ,end to end 6-50foots will give me 300ft/and a 40foot cross way under the shop to work as an entrance and actually shooting bench area that way I have option of digging in other "lanes" if this idea catches on like I hope it will!

If you don't have any access to the far end, it might be hard on the knees crawling back and forth for lead mining expeditions once you start filling in your tunnel...

Government - they are idiots. I worked for the State of CA, what they thought was impossible most of us could do with a pen knofe.

Tag for future reading

Looks like your pipe provides access to your safe room. Your going to need a second safe door.