We have had several rattlesnake bite victims in the ICU over the past couple of weeks. The patients have been in very serious condition when they got to the hospital. Our physicians have told us that there are multiple snake bits victims hospitalized across the city, including Children's Hospital and the Univ. of Alabama. We had yet another admission for snake bites this past week. I am really curious as to why the sudden rise in admissions for snake related injury.

I was relaying this same info to Jim the other say when he told me that he had been seeing a lot of snakes on the roadways as he traveled to and from work. He said that some he had seen in the road were as big as a mans arm circumference!

Have any of you guys seen an inordinate ammount of snakes this year? Also, have any of you heard of a rise in snake bites? I am curious to know if there is a rise in the aggression of snakes as well as the population itself.

I found a picture on the net of a finger that looked strikingly similar to the patients arms/hands that I have seen in the hospital recently. It will give you an idea of how severe these bites can be.

http://www.helenair.com/articles/2008/05/25/top/80na_080525_rattlesnakes.txt

Good grief. I never realized that the bite of a rattler produced that kind of skin degradation.

I've not seen one of our timber rattlers this year and only a few black snakes up here my way.

Maybe the rattlers were Clemson fans!!

IIRC, one effect of even nonfatal amounts of viper venom is spontaneous sloughing of skin and muscle. I've never seen it and hope that I never do!

The skin wll literally rot from the inside out. By the time you see the outer damage, the muscle and subcutaneous layers of skin are dying or dead. The skin will begin to slough off. Its awful and awfully painful. Its just shocking to me to see so many people with bites. Of the two we had in ICU last week, one was a male who worked for the power co reading meters, the other was a female who worked for a concrete company who literally picked the damn snake up on a dare from a male co-worker.

I have not seen a poisonous snake all summer , now having said that I will probably walk out the door & step on one.

Mike

LOL..... Maby so!

This is actually a little late for snakes to be this aggressive. Normally late July early August is when they get really aggressive. I had always heard that the dog days of summer was the time of year to be vary wary of snakes in the south. What I can't stand is to see them when I am bowhunting. I killed 2 water moccasins on my way to my stand one afternoon a few years ago. I never made it to my stand. After the 2nd one I decide to head back to the truck. I didn't want to run into any in the dark.

they are moving out of the area because of the storms that are coming to destroy new orleans, they can sense those things months in advance.

It's an election year!
The no-legged snakes are following their two legged cousins out to meet the electorate.

Jim

we had a somewhat compressed snake-bite season this year but the overall number of cases (human and animal) pretty much ended up average. I only had one de-gloving injury to deal with, the rest had no serious sloughing.

it matters a lot which body part gets bit.

From what I recall of my snake lore, they shed their skins around this time of year, which makes them hyper agressive. I don't like poisonous snakes, and usually kill all that I see, especially after seeing the results of two friends who got bitten, one an innocent mistake while cleaning out a sprinkler head receptacle by a pygmy rattler, the other a piece of foolishness such as you described while trying to capture a copperhead to give to the herpetology center at the zoo. Caught the critter OK, but during transport, it got out of the gunny sack and things got interesting. The results were not so pretty; swelling and pain, followed by sloughing skin and permanent scarring. My rule is keep your distance, and CCI shot cartridges are great inventions. I use mine often.

Middle west Texas has always had it's share of shaky tails. There was a nest under the hunting 5th wheel last years. A little gas convinced them to come within 20 gauge distance. I popped the head off a Copperhead that same trip. Oddly it was a very cool morning and we was content to let me put the blade of my knife over his head without putting up any struggle. I used a stick to pin 'em down, but a finger would have worked as well.

Three years ago a GPS caught a rattler bite to the sinus cavity (one fang only) while chasing quail. He blew out a copious amount of blood. He never exhibited any symptoms, so we assume it was either a dry bite or the venom was only in the cavity and came out with the blood.

I'm not going to be flip about this, but no I have not seen many snakes at all this summmer. Other than one Coral Snake down in Florida last month, I don't stick my hands in places I can't see or pick the dam things up. On the other hand I will not shoot one just because either.

I will. A poisonous one, anyway. If you leave them to their own devices around your place, sooner or later a dog or a loved one will get bit. I would rather be proactive and save the ensuing pain and anguish for all concerned.

Very interesting.

Seems kinda early but may be the beginning of migration back to densights. Early spring and late fall are always the most active seasons for hibernating herps. (In the south, though, many don't need to hibernate and only go into a couple months brumation.)

Late august is usually the hottest part of the year. It is here anyway. When it's hot most herps hide out in cool spots during the day and come out only at night. Another thing to consider is this is an important time of the year, gaining weight before hibernation is mandatory. If winter is coming early they'll be all the more eager to find food.

Lots more snakes here than usual.

This time of year, the northern snakes are getting ready to mate and go into hybrination, many are sheding as well, that makes them very bad tempered, and aggressive. I don't know about the rattlers in the Southern part of the country, I have lived most of my life in the drier areas. The snakes are a lot differeant in size and temper up here. Do yours go underground to winter? if so, are the storms haveing an effect? Around here you try to avoid rock cliffs or outcrops this time of year unless you want to find snakes.

Thanks guys, I just came in from my garden and I spent half of my time looking to make sure there weren't any snakes around. I know they are good but I don't like surprises.

This is the first year since we moved to the farm 15 years ago that I haven't seen a snake of any kind. Fine with me.

"This time of year, the northern snakes are getting ready to mate and go into hybrination,"

???

So far as I know all North American snakes that hibernate do their breeding in the early spring. However in the south where the season is longer some egg layers double clutch. That means a second breeding season in mid-summmer. All North American pit vipers are live bearers and breed at most once per year, some every other year, and some even less often than that. (timber rattler for inistance often only reproduce every 3 to 6 years).

When I lived in North FL the snakes never really hibernated, they'd just find a deep hole for a few hours until the temperature warmed up, and then would sun near the hole. The coldest it ever got for the 18 years I lived down there was in the 20's, but only for a few hours at a time. Even on the coldest days it would get up into the high 30's low 40's in the afternoon. I've killed many a moccasin or rattler while hunting in December in FL.

In TN it's totally different. They seem to den up in late fall, and stay that way until early spring. Of course it gets a great deal colder here than it ever did in FL. I haven't seen near the amount of snakes in general since we moved 19 months ago, but I'm sure that will change the more I get out to hunt.

I talked to a friend of mine who works at another local hospital. She told me that they had 4 snake bites admitted in the last 6 or 8 weeks. Maby its a locale thing???? I dunno. I just cant remember ever seeing as many patients in with venomous snake bites in my whole career. When we get these folks in, they get the antivenom, which can cause some seroius heart issues. If the bite was bad enough, with a large amt of injected venom, the patient can have serious respiratoty and cardiac issues. Some are neurotoxic while others are hemotoxic....and dont ask me which are which cause I dont have a clue. I do know that the ER docs treat according to the suspected type venom.
Thank God I have never been bitten...I would die from an MI before I ever made it to the hospital all the while screaming like little girl!!!! Im MORTIFIED of snakes and mice.

The best prevention to ever getting snake bit is to pass the Bar. Professional courtesy.

Now this I do believe.
g

More Copperheads this year and we've seen some Rattlers it's weird one oldtimer told us it was because of the rain,i dunno but all i see get a free bullet hoe baseball bat shovel or whatever i can use to seperate the head from the body.with the Weather approaching the Gulf Coast i'm sure some of yall Northerners will be coming down for your jobs or helping out and may run into a Coral snake remember this saying and it'll help you out"Red touch Yellow,kill a fellow Red touch Black good for Jack." the latter is a harmless water snake the former is the strongest venom we have in Bama.

Interesting that you should post this. I dreamed about snakes last night... It's the first time in a looooong time (actually, I can't remember the last time) that I've dreamed about snakes.

There was also a tarantula-type spider in my dream as well.

Penny

In the link to the pictures and article by NurseKat, unless I read it wrong, the deadliest symptoms are occuring in Arizona, and were from bites from the Mohave ratler.

From what I have read, the Mohave rattler has the most toxic venom of all the rattlers, a combination of both hemotoxic and neurotoxic venom. That could be the reason for the sever reactions and deaths, because those bites were from the Mohave rattler.

In venom toxecity charts I have seen, the Mohave rates as having about the 10th deadliest venom of any snake in the world. Actually, it appears to be tied with the Cobra and Coral Snake if there is a contest for the snake with the most toxic venom.

I don't have an explanation for why it appears more people are being bitten by the Mohave than other rattlers common to that area, unless Mohave rattlers are more common than the other snakes.

Two friends were camping out one night, when all of the sudden one of them jumps up screaming,

"A SNAKE JUST BIT ME ON THE BUTT!!".

The other friend said, "don't worry, I am going to town to find a doctor, I will be right back!".

So he goes to town, and finally finds a doctor.

"Doctor!! My friend just got bit by a snake!!!" the friend says.

"It's ok", the doctor says, "all you have to do is suck the poison out.".

The friend says thank you, and runs back to the camp site.

The injured friends asks, "WHAT DID THE DOCTOR SAY? WHAT DID HE SAY?"


The other friend replies, "the doctor said your gonna die!"

The bites we have seen have just caused the tissue sloughing and necrosis, in addition to severe pain. We have not seen a fatality yet. Most likely in part to use of the antivenom. The site that I posted was interesting to me because of the similarity of the tissue damage from the bites. I dont have have a clue about the snakes the article referenced but the bite damage is very similar to what we are seeing here.

Several years ago, I met Ross Allen, who processed snake venom at his place in Florida. He had been bitten several times and I asked him what was the worst bite he ever had.

He showed me his thumb, which was shriveled up smaller than the first joint on his little finger. He said that one, from a Cotton Mouth. There were photos on a bulletin board showing various bites. They were similiar to the one in your link. Some were on arms, and can you imigine an arm bursting and swelling up like that finger?

I don't think there are Mojave rattlers in Alabama, probably only Eastern Diamond backs and Timber Rattlers and Cane Breaks. Some say that the venom from Timber Rattlers and Cane Breaks is more toxic than that of the Eastern Diamond Back.
All are bad news if you are bitten, but I have read that the Mojave has the most toxic venom

My one friend who got it in the finger by the Pygmy Rattlesnake sloughed a bunch of tissue and lost range of motion in his pinky, where the bite occurred. The other had his forearm swell up the size of 5 pound tube of hamburger, lost alot of tissue, and had nerve damage. It was pretty ugly. I don't play where venomous snakes are concerned. I've shot more moccasins and Canebrake Rattlesnakes than I care to count, and don't regret any of them. The largest snake I've killed was a 6' Eastern Diamondback. Man, you talk about the shivers, it was one BIG snake. It took three CCI shot cartridges from a .45 Colt to settle his hash.

We had a fellow named Maynard Cox who lived in Green Cove Springs, which was 5 miles from where I lived in Orange Park, and he is one of the world's foremost experts on North American venomous snakes. He's been bit a lot, and has developed somewhat of an immunity to rattlesnake venom. He's a funny kind of guy, but everyone calls him when they've got a snake problem. He'd make a good Fundamentalist Preacher, 'cause he handles those snakes like a pro.

Kat some of my club members (in NE MS) swear there are a lot more snakes this year. A good many of them are now carrying .410 single shot pistols when they go in the woods. I personally have not seen any more than normal but then I do not go looking for them.

The number of snakes could be up because we have not a very cold winter in several years. We have also been dry for the last 3 years. The farmers tell me field mice numbers are up also.

So as prey numbers increase so do predators.

NurseKat, back in wildlife biology classes, we were taught that predator/prey populations were cyclic, and that population increases of snakes follows close behind population increases of rodents. I wonder if you're seeing more rodent borne diseases like Hantaan Virus? We had a mild Winter followed by a mild Summer with a good amount of rain, crops were good, and critters are everywhere. Lots of deer, turkeys, rabbits, squirrels... I don't know about Alabama, but I imagine you'd have much the same. I just read some study on bear attacks out West blaming a bad crop of pinion nuts for bears coming down from the mountains and attacking people. There's got to be a link somewhere. I'd bet your rattlers are somehow responding to a food source's dynamics.

there are two mohave rattlers....the regular mohaves and mohave greens....mohave greens are the really deadly ones...they are a specific location of mohave's.....the west coasts southern pacific rattler is also particularly nasty....actually the prairie rattlers we have here are pretty toxic drop for drop but dont produce much.....

mohaves are the most toxic rattler IN THE US.....once you get south of the border rattlers climb in toxicity and they get pretty good sized where most of the really toxic ones in the states are small to midlin.....

they are no where close to the top ten most toxic unless your looking at a condensed list specifically done to put them on it....cobra species range in toxicity from that of a copperhead(actually fairly close to harmless when compared to front fanged venomous snakes, antivenin is rarely needed to save a life with a copperhead bite, just to slow down tissue damage which isnt much compared to most of their buzz tailed cousins) to that of being pretty close to a sure thing your going to die quick with no treatment.....infact king cobra venom isnt all that toxic....most rattlers in the US have stronger venom drop for drop....however none of our snakes can compete with the volume produced by a 12-18 foot king cobra....king cobras kill yah by the quantity not the quality of their venom....US coral snakes are nowhere near the top 10 either....hell MOST of the land based top 10 live in Austrailia followed by Africa than Asia.....dont believe a single New World snake species cracks the top 15.........if your going by groups such as "rattlers" "cobras" "coral snakes" "mambas" ect than you can get rattlers in the top 10 but if yah go by individual species yah cant do it.....only rattler in the top 20 in subQ injections(most likely type of bite) is the tiger rattler from a lil bit of south central Arizona but mostly in Mexico.....mohave greens are around the high 20's low 30's on the list..........

Interesting, thanks Sheridan.

You up at the lake?

nope calling for rain and actually believed it so we came home.....have a paying carpeting job to do anyway......cant get down the Dog Creek Road if it rains so i figured i might aswell earn a couple hundred bucks instead......saw some decent speed goats on the way back to town on the Willow Creek Road but nothing huge....

Right on.

That gumbo gets greasy!

Rattler, the list I saw did group some different snakes togather.

The top of the list was the Inland, or Small Scaled Tiapan, in Australia. In order of toxicity, Australia had about the top seven, including the Brown Snake, Tiger Snake, another type of Tiapan, and some others. One of the Sea Snakes was included in this list of of snakes with highly toxic venom.

As for as your statement that a Cobra kills by quantity, not quality, I am not in a position to argue with you on that. It would stand to reason that a large quantity of a mild venom would kill you just as dead as a small quantity very toxic venom.

On the list I mentioned, and I found it on the internet, I can't remember where, some snakes were in groups with others, based on the toxicity of their venom. The Mohave and Coral snake and some species of Cobra, the King Cobra I think, but I don't remember for sure, came in at about tenth place. What I mean is, these three snakes, and there might have been others, had venom, on a drop for drop basis, of about the same toxicity level.

The study was not based on quantity, but quality. I don't remember the exact method the study was made, but it had to do with the smallest amount of venom tested to kill 50 percent of the labatory mice the venom was injected in.

The Inland, or small scale Tiapan was first by far, but one interesting statement was that there had not been any reported deaths from this snake, although there were deaths from the Tiger snake and others that tested less toxic than the Tiapan.

There was some question that perhaps venom acted differently in people than it did on lab mice. What I mean is, while a paticular venom might be very deadly to a mouse, it would not be as deadly, or it could be more deadly, to a human as a paticular venom from another snake, so the toxicity rating might be different from mice as it is for humans.

In the area where I live, Georgia, the Timber Rattler is the most common, although rarely seen, and further south, the Eastern Diamond back and a sub-species of the Timber Rattler, the Cane Break rattlers are found. Although the venom of the Eastern Diamondback is rated more toxic than either the Timber rattler or Cane Break, some studies show that there is a higher percentage of deaths from the latter two than from the Eastern Diamond Back.

From first hand accounts I have read, the Western Diamond back venom must be very toxic, going by all the tissue damage the bite causes.

It surprised me than the finger Ross Allen showed me, and stated that this was the worst bite he had experienced, was from a Cotton Mouth bite, because he had been bitten by snakes with much more toxic venom than the Cotton Mouth.

The Cotton Mouth is another one we run into occasionally in this area, and quite often further south.

Do you have any training in the study of venomous snakes? I don't have any training, medical or otherwise but I have an interest in learning about them. I read everything I can find about venomous snakes and venomous snake bites.

Probably should point out that while snake bites on the rise, walleye bite on the drop.

I have a hunting lease in Tennessee. I put in approx 20 food plots, trim shooting lanes, and hang stands this time of year. Would you believe it is against the law to kill a rattler or any snake in Tennessee? Also, illegal to kill albino deer. Very strange.

In the case of snakes, the triple S theory works in Michigan.

Shoot, shovel, shut up!

You know Sassy, the more I see of you here, the more I'm becoming impressed.

Where did you hear about the triple S theory?

Good one................ *laughin'*

We live on a farm and used to raise sheep. Neighbor explained the theory to me about dogs running sheep. Never had a dog problem after that!

Yeah, I hear that the SSS theory has been put to good use on wolves.

You have to be careful where you "shovel" em' though, because some of them have chips embedded in them and can be tracked right to the burial sight by the Fish and Wildlife people.

A couple of loggers shot a mountain lion once in CT (where the F&G say they don't exist) and threw it in a nearby lake.

A couple of days later, a game warden showed up where they were working and started asking some questions.

He couldn't be specific about what he was looking for, because the F&G Dept. did not want the public to know that they were trying to re-introduce lions in the area to help control the deer herd.

His telemetry data was telling him that the dead cougar was in the area, but without the help of the loggers, he never found it.

I guess the moral of this story is that you can still employ the SSS theory, but because of the technology that's out there today, you just gotta be a little more careful on how you do it.

Good thought. I'll think about that the next time I shoot a snake. But I'm sure not checking it for a chip. ROFL

Don't have sheep anymore so have to worry about the dogs.

I don't believe it used to unless there was mitigating circumstances. Now it sounds like something is going on that is producing more toxic reactions.

From the article:
Scientists and toxicologists can take guesses at what�s behind the spike in extreme symptoms, but no one yet knows what�s going on. Some say it could be a change in snake venom, a change in the snakes themselves, or something altogether different.

��This is a brand new phenomenon,�� said Jeffrey Brent, clinical professor of medicine at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center. ��It should spur a considerable amount of research in the area.��

Brent said he hadn�t seen the extreme symptoms in patients until last year, when there were five. ��They came pretty darn close to dying,�� he said. ��They were extremely, extremely sick.��

I'd guess this "phenomenon" is caused by the deterioration of the human immune system rather than a change in the animal injecting the venom.

take it you havent actually looked at many snake bites......that kind of degradation is pretty common in most viper bites......especially if it was a bad bite or yah waited to long to get help.....snake venom dissolves tissue some species worse than others, less so with the cobra type species as most prey heavily on snakes and lizards, species that prey heavily on mammals tend to be heavy on the tissue dissolver venoms, those that prey on birds, snakes, fish and the like rely heavily on the neurotoxins that stop the heart and lungs quick, though this is very rough generalities, most snakes carry a cocktail of 3 or more kinds in various proportions.....hell the venom of some can dissolve bone if left unattended for a couple days.....

about the only "harmless" front fanged venomous snake in the US would be to take a bite from a copperhead in the hand.....tissue damage tends to be localized and antivenin is almost never needed to save your life though they do use it to slow tissue damage......though if yah took a hit from a big one to the forearm and the venom got injected deep in the muscle or god forbid directly into a vein or artery you will be much worse off....with the larger rattlers a bite to the hand can cause issues for the whole arm and even shoulder area even if you get to help quick the venom is designed to kill and dissolve tissue quick....

who ever thinks this is a "new symptom" needs to pick up a book on venomous snakes form the 60's and look at the pics.....the bites would look pretty much the same as now.....the "new" issues are much more likely to be due to ppls immune systems being much weaker than in the past in our modern western nation or the simple fact snake bite may be on the rise in certain areas due to new developments being put into traditional snake habitats and the docs in these areas are inexperienced with dealing with snake bites.....treating snake bites well is a very specialized procedure, as much art as science and few doctors get enough practice to be damn good at it.....its much more complicated than just pumping a bite victim full of antivenin.....

I'd say that is a good guess and maybe both going on for whatever reason.

^This stupid little bastard just pushed his luck here,...right at sundown ( how fitting)

Gracey has panned out to be the perfect home place canine unit.
Heelers are pretty infamous for just diving in and "Goin' for it"

.............she hangs back and barks,.....with a rather alarming note.

Last one she rousted it was late,...and dark,.....I thought it would be coyotes,....Nope,....a fair sized Diamondback,.....

Not wanting to leave her alone, while I went and exchanged the 12 Ga. #4 for the pistola pictured, ....I just used the big gun,,,,,combed and scrubbed snake parts outta' hair, beard and Mustache for the following 2 days

This li'l creep was copping major "I'll bite you" attitudes, Gracey hung back and listened to my advisory,.......I explained that I'd Handle it,.....she sat, cocked her head, and watched....

Wierd deal,....given that we live in wierd times,.....I had to shoot this damn thing about 5-6 times ( one usually does the trick).........it's cooling it's jets, in the freezer, as I type.

we may be in the age of the snake,......( 2 leggeds) ?

anyone for a snakecickle

Strange,......it kept moving, and striking,...far more than what one would expect,....usual like.

dunno' if that relates to this thread title, or not.....
Damned aggressive snake,....even in dying.

Honey, why on earth did you put it in the freezer???? Did you warn the wife it was in there??????????? (Im assuming your married...forgive me if Im wrong.) Finding a snake in my freezer would ellicit a scream from me that would shake the foundation of the house!!

No Ma'm, ( married?)....haven't been for a while,...

.......if I'm going to have this critter for breakfast, a coupla' hours of sub-zero will help , in terms of hassle free hide removwal.

May I send you this somewhat damaged hide,....busy right now,.......HMmmm, mebbe just leave it in the freezer....?

Rattlesnake sauteed in garlic butter,....eggs and good toast
....breakfast of champions.

GTC

reptiles nervous system is pretty primitive.......quite often the rest of the body aint aware its dead yet and the nerons keep firing.....not to mention the brain on one is a pretty small target.....rest of the head can be mangled up the brain may still be mostly fine....keep your hands away from the head end of a venomous snake, dead or not.....there can stil be venom in or on the fangs and if yah get stuck with one, while it aint as bad as a full on bit from a live one, there is a good chance yah aint going to enjoy the experiance...would guess the snake is between 2 and 5 years depending on how much it has gotten to eat in its life....more food=more growth.....hell i wouldnt mind the hide........