Source

New video shows BART officer shooting Hayward man in the back
By Sean Maher
Oakland Tribune
Posted: 01/04/2009 10:10:58 PM PST

OAKLAND � A BART police officer struggling to handcuff a 22-year-old man, stood up over the facedown Hayward resident and fired a single shot into his back while a handful of officers watched, a video taken by a train passenger apparently shows.

The attorney for the family of Oscar Grant III, fatally shot by an unidentified BART officer early New Year's Day, said Sunday he plans to file a $25 million lawsuit against the department and asked prosecutors to consider filing murder charges against the officer.

The shooting occurred shortly before 2 a.m. Thursday after five officers responded to the Fruitvale station to reports of a fight on a train, officials said, though they have not confirmed whether Grant was involved in the fight.

The new video, obtained by television station KTVU, shows two officers restraining a struggling suspect. While the man is lying face down on the ground, one officer appears to be seen pulling out a gun and firing a single shot into his back.

Civil rights attorney John Burris, known for his work in several high-profile cases involving police abuse and corruption, said at a Sunday news conference that the shooting was "the most unconscionable shooting" he has ever seen. He said that the Alameda County district attorney should consider filing charges of second degree murder or manslaughter against the officer.

"I've drafted a notice of claim against BART for $25 million I plan to submit officially," Burris said, adding that the officer had violated Grant's civil rights and caused his wrongful death.

The Police Department is in the early stages of a thorough investigation, BART police Chief Gary Gee said Sunday at a news conference. He declined to discuss many details, as doing so "before all the facts are in could compromise individual recollections and do disservice to the truth and the answers we're all seeking."

BART police are cooperating fully with a parallel investigation by the Alameda County district attorney's office, Gee said.

Gee declined to identify the officer but said he is a two-year BART police veteran. The officer was given drug and alcohol tests before being sent home on administrative leave Thursday, Gee said.

The last BART officer-involved shooting occurred in May 2001, Gee said.

Mario Pangelina Jr., whose sister had a 4-year-old daughter with Grant, said he was on the same train as Grant that night, but on a different car. He said he saw Grant's interactions with police immediately before the shooting.

"First, an officer grabbed Oscar by the neck and pushed him against the wall," Pangelina said. "Oscar didn't fight him, but he didn't go down either. He was like, 'What did I do?' Then another officer came up with his Taser and held it right in his face. Oscar said, 'Please don't shoot me, please don't Taser me, I have a daughter,' over and over again, real fast, and he sat down."

Grant was the only man in a small group sitting against the wall who was not handcuffed, Burris said, so officers grabbed him away from the wall and pressed him belly-down onto the ground.

"One officer was kneeling over his neck and head, and another standing over him," Burris said. "He was not kicking, and one officer was pulling on his arm. The standing officer pulled out his weapon and, within moments, fired the gun into Mr. Grant's back."

Burris said the bullet went through Grant's lower back and ricocheted off the ground up into his lungs, killing him.

BART's 206 sworn officers attend the same academies and training programs as city police and sheriff's deputies. According to BART's Web site, its requirements go beyond state guidelines, as every officer applicant must have completed at least a year of college.

Police have one video of the incident in evidence, different from the video that local media have released, and the quality of that video makes it hard to reach a sure conclusion, Gee said.

"It's not clear to me why the officer felt he needed to shoot. I don't know, and from my perspective it doesn't matter," Burris said.

Two authorities on police use of deadly force, both former law enforcement officers, said the newly discovered tape leaves unanswered questions.

"Strictly on the basis of this video, it is impossible to determine whether the shooting was justified because the officer who fired the shot might have seen some imminent threat to his or others' lives that the camera does not detect at that distance, angle and resolution," said Michael Scott, a University of Wisconsin law professor, former police chief in Florida and co-author of "Deadly Force: What We Know."

Scott said he watched the video several times. If there was a threat, he wrote in an e-mail to the Times, it "would most likely have to be a firearm or other weapon in the possession of Mr. Grant. However, if it turns out that Mr. Grant had no such weapon, it is awfully difficult to imagine what might have justified the use of deadly force."

Curtis J. Cope agreed that the tape doesn't show enough to draw clear conclusions.

"There are so many things we don't know," said Cope, a former 30-year law enforcement officer who has conducted police training and provides expert testimony in police procedure cases. "We certainly don't know the reason why they decided to put him prone on the ground. We don't know what reactions were taking place, what orders were being given and whether or not he is then complying or not complying. ... You need to look at every possible angle of it. Those angles all take time."

Grant was a butcher at popular Oakland grocery store Farmer Joe's and a loving father, family members said Sunday.

"He was so happy with his daughter," said Lita Gomez, sister to the mother of Grant's child. "You could see he was just so happy when he looked at her. Now, he's not going to be there for kindergarten. He's not going to be there for her prom. He's not going to be there for her wedding. She was robbed of that."

Family members erected a memorial for Grant outside the Fruitvale BART station Saturday night, where they said they plan to continue honoring his memory for 10 days.

A public funeral service is planned for 11 a.m. Wednesday at Palma Ceia Baptist Church, 28605 Ruus Road in Hayward, family members said.

Gee asked anyone with information on the shooting to call BART investigators at 877-679-7000, ext. 7040, or the Alameda County district attorney's office at 510-272-6222.

Even given the sound-byte nature of the video presented on TV, it certainly looked bad for the Officer.

One theory had it that he reached for his taser and drew and fired his gun instead. Believable if you've ever been in the chaotic situation of breaking up a fight with several participants.

In our city we have a young Officer currently facing criminal charges on account of he ran a red light at high speed (w/out lights or siren IIRC)while responding to a shoplifting call, got in a collision, and struck and killed his fellow Officer and friend who was working an accident scene at that same intersection. Maybe like here, a moment's wrong decision with major and tragic consequences.

Maybe the dead guy had weed or a weapon or something on him and didn't want to get searched.

Anyhow, four other Officers potentially criminally liable, numerous witnesses. I would guess the facts of the case oughtta come out pretty quick.

Birdwatcher

Over/under on this at 10 pages...............

Over...unfortunately.

Nothing good can come out of traveling on public transportation at 2am.

As luck would have it there are still another 6 billion plus out there so we aren't running short.

Probably going for the taser and grabbed his gun like birdwatcher implied.... Maybe it is not such a good ideal after all to make tasers shaped with a grip like a gun...

Should have had private cops there, hell should have just let them fight, who cares if they kill each other, I don't.

The over is only 10 pages?
OH hell thats gotta be a sure thing, I'll take the over.

Opened this thread thinkin Bart finally got tasered. Need to find articles about drug crazed code writters who go off the deep end...................................................

I can't see it going that far but who knows. This is the third time it's been posted. ebd and barkoff brought it out a couple days ago.

I hope it's not against the rules here to post a link to the video: Liveleak.com has a couple of versions
I'm astounded. With this many officers around, I don't see why this one felt the need to shoot. Surely he only meant to tase (Taser?). It really does look bad. I hope there's some legitimate reason.

This poor guy must be emotionally devastated. I can't imagine....

I was trying to deliver a load to some Chinese food distributor in LA one time. Some other trucker had the gate blocked and wouldn't move. He was already ticked off at the receiver, so he wasn't in the mood for me to tell him to move. Words were exchanged between me and this belligerent driver - he wound up moving, unblocking the gate, but not before he called the cops. When they arrived, I was breaking the seal on the trailer with a screwdriver. Two cops got out of the car - the driver with his hand on his pistol (still holstered), saying "Put the weapon down!" I was like "Whoa Dude - what weapon?" It really scared me.

I'm pushing ....

In my book the cop is innocent until tried and convicted by a jury of his peers........

The End

Yeah, but did you watch the video?

I hope it's like Birdwatcher said

BTW nemesis - this is for you

looks like a cop is going to have a new cell mate for life called bubba,, if he makes it for any length on time. shoot a defensless kid, in the back, while being beat by a bunch of cops....
yep, bungholio is gonna ride him hard in prison... hope HE get's what he deserves....

let's see how long that "i have a gun and a badge" attitude last's in there...

Well, just hope his peers don't post on the Campfire then, cause he's done already in some books.

We are all at risk in a society that thinks it's ok to have a gigantic force of militarized men (established in law as a class above the rest of us), at the beck and call of the state, walking around amongst us with the authority to violently handle any citizen they choose. This murder victim could have been any of us non-members of the police culture.

Over -- All cops bad

Under -- ALL COPS GOOD

I SAID OVER--ALL COPS BAD

UNDER YOU LIBERAL ANARCHIST PIG--ALL COPS GOOD

(and so on).

BMT

That says it all. If this was a case of mistaking a Glock for a stun gun, there is no better argument for cops not having two gun-like weapons (one lethal and one deemed non-lethal) on them as standard equipment.

Disarm the police and arm all the citizens. That'll fix it.

My guess is that the cop will be cleared of any criminal charges. He will, in all likelihood lose his job and maybe his certification. I still believe that this was the result of violating rule number 3 as opposed to an act of malice.

Whew... Brother Bart... you stay safe... I had the same thought 300 winmag did..."Don't tase me <whoa! crap...no no no...Bang> bro.... you bonehead... thud

Humor aside... horrible story... sure hope it was mistake in weapon choice. What happens if other people are holding onto someone when they get tased?

How many good things are done every day. And the bad ones get all the attention. Not that it may have been right or wrong, but geez....

The LEO has gotten death threats since this happened,he has moved twice.

Barak,

I think you should just taze Bart, bro...

Don't disarm them. Just fire them. Let the folks solve most of the crime problem, like they used to in this nation. Terrorist attack, or something similar? Call out the local militia.

When, in 1859, John Brown and gang raided Harper's Ferry Armory, held hostages, and generally raised hell, it was the local militia, not the police, who responded. Regular folks, volunteers with their own weapons.

When there was no emergency, these folks were bakers, shoe makers, farmers, etc., not patrolling around (at tax payers' expense) looking for someone to rough up .

Is it just me, or can anyone discern what the heck happened in that video???

It looked as though the tape was off when the shot was fired....Which cop in the video did the shooting?

It was the cop who was near the victim's feet while victim was down. He attempted to reach for his gun, then decided against it, then stood up, reached for it, drew it, aimed and fired into the center of the victim's lower back, execution style.

There were two videos on the site I looked at. One turned away during the shooting but the other showed it. The officer who shot immediately puts his hands up to his face in what looks to me like an �oh my God� kind of gesture. It doesn�t look to me like it was deliberate but damn, what a terrible mistake to make if that�s indeed what it was.

Who could have ever known that mistake could be made? I mean, after all, two holstered guns, one on the right, the other on the left, one is lethal, the other is not. Who could have predicted that a cop could draw the wrong one under stress?

Hawk, if you look at both videos, you will see him stand up and point the gun/taser at the victim. The other officers release him at the same time. Looks like he thought he was going to tase him, since the other officers relaxed their grips. Sad story all the way around. From the looks of the second video, the guy really knew he screwed up.


Clyde

Yes, I agree. It likely was an accident. Very tragic, but very predictable in retrospect. Tasers should look and feel nothing at all like a gun.

Agreed


Clyde

They're citizens just like us, he is entitled to due process just like the rest of us, if he is guilty he should be punished just like the rest of us.


Mike

P.S. It's amazing too me how people want to hit the lottery just because of what will probably prove to be a tragic error.

You don't deserve $25 Million for it.

Mike

Gee willikers ma'am............. I just don't know what to say.

You might feel differently about that if it was your son, brother, daughter, or wife killed in a similar fashion. There's a certain finality to it. That policeman took everything that kid had, or ever will have. He took a child's father. It's the biggest crime there is.

I'm not anti-police, but when someone, cop or not, makes a mistake like THAT, there needs to be consequences, and painful ones. Hell... why in God's name would he even have thought it necessary to TAZE a guy handcuffed lying on his belly??? Just to hear him scream?

Yep. That would have been the only possible motivation, yet had he done so, and no one videotaped it, the cops would have simply reported that he was not obeying commands to their liking, that it was perfectly consistent with department policy, and that would have been the end of it.

PS Wasn't Unforgiven a great flick?

Wondered if anyone would catch that quote. Yes, it was a great flick! I'd like to watch it again, come to think... I did rent "the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" over the Xmas break. That was cool.

I have both on DVD. Come to think of it, I think I'll watch Unforgiven tonight, too.

Don't forget that we're looking to make our bones by shooting somebody. I don't want to stop at just looking for someone to rough up.

George

Whatever happened with that female officer who shot that nutter out of the tree a few years back? Wasn�t she thinking she had her taser when she shot him in the azz?

I know you mean to reference me, because I remember saying something about making bones, but I don't believe that the context was such as to implicate all police officers. The way I remember it, I had said that "I suspect that some cops are looking to make their bones in situation like the one then in question," i.e., what they perceive as an armed confrontation with a bad guy.

"Making ones bones" in this context means earning a reputation among ones peers as an elite example of their profession because they defeated a bad guy in a gunfight. In organized crime, it means earning that status by offing someone, but it is common practice to make use of slang terms in a different context from which they originated.

PS Were I dealing with some other cops on this site, I wouldn't even be attempting to reason with them on this point.

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This isn't the 1800's, you can't get the majority of folks to volunteer for crap. I live in an area that in other then the bigger communities the fire dept. is volunteer.

It's difficult to find enough people who can physically do fire work, to assist in putting their neighbors house out if it catches fire, let alone military type duties.

The local militia, are you going to be a member? You can't even make a decision involving an armed subject pointing a weapon at people. How in the world, could you make a life or death decisions involving the lives of others, to include those other militia members and citizens around you?

You might be able to shoot, but you darn sure can't make critical decisions or lead. Have you ever been a team player, involving any activity other then being a student or taking care of yourself? Have you ever been a member of an athletic team, such as football, basketball or baseball, or any other team activity that other people relied upon you?

I know that you've never served in the military, i don't know what you think a trained militia is? It's a trained organized military unit made up of citizen volunters. Who have to follow the orders of those appointed to lead them. It's not a free for all, of do what you want, when you want to operation.

It's so funny, you talk about life in the 1800's, why don't you go live somewhere without electricity, sewer and phone service, cars and a whole host of technical things. Build your own home from lumber you sawed by hand from trees you fell etc. Raise and grow your own food. You had to come on this site and ask how to skin a deer, cause some guide has always done it for you.

You talk so much schit Hawkeye, how many people grew up on this site with maids and house cleaners like you did. Now your talking about life in the 1800's.

Our Govt. has had LE representives around for years, including the 1800's in such things as elected sheriff's, town marshall's, constables, and US marshall's.

So how are you going to do this citizen police Hawkeye? You going to issue everyone in town a Motorola and hideaway lights for their car or mount a dashlight or light bar on their cars. Then have the whole town respond to 911 calls for emergencies. This of which the majority have no clue of what to do when they arrive at the scene or how to follow up on the incident.

As i've stated before you have no clue as to truly what goes on in LE. It's just easy for you to talk trash about it here. Why don't you get involved in a reserve LE program in your community, either with a PD or SO. Get out there on the street and truly and honestly see what happens.

yeah, tase the guy when down and subdued...
yep, gotta love the cops... a badge and a gun.... i am better than you, you listen to me punk, i'm better than you...
and nh k9, it's that comment right there, just eggin it on, that makes most of us belive there are more bad and dirty cops than good...
so when does a cop do good, that's not reported ??

they do good ?
oh, when they let you off with a warning instead of a ticket ?
come to the scene of a crime, AFTER it's happened ?

i know, tase the cat out of the tree, instead of climbing up and bringing it back down to the crying little girl....

that's what cops have come to represent now in today's society to many..


bad cop, no donut....

Why is that the only thing you ever post anymore, Hunter? It's getting monotonous. Your posts used to be a lot more interesting.

Likewise, if it were others I wouldn't try to offer a look from a different perspective.

Maybe it's because I don't work in a large metropolitan PD but it's not seen like that around here. One of my Dept. members got involved in a shoot. Nobody thinks of him as "elite". All we see is what a pain in the balls it was prior to the AG clearing him. He went through hell for months before the decision came down.

Many here complain of an "us vs. them" mentality that is, apparently, the fault of LEOs. Making statements like the one quoted in this thread and (whether made without thought or not) the prior one are accomplishing the same thing.

You stated that to be proved false that no cop that ever me that description would have to exist. Following that logic, I could make damn near any statement I wanted about the general public and hold onto that viewpoint. You wouldn't brand me as one of "those LEOs" if I did that? Really?

George

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"In organized crime, it means earning that status by offing someone"

Be careful George, Hawkeyes mind has slipped into his Tony Sopranno character.

You obviously haven't been involved in some of the exchanges between TRH and I. No problem.

I've said a dozen times, I have no tolerance for dirty/bad cops and have arrested and been involved in investigations of the same. If you want to believe that I fit the "bad cop" stereotype, go ahead.

George

that's fine, i haven't been around long enough to know that.
i appologize....

No apology needed, it's only the 'net.

But, acknowleged as I can see how that would come off with no prior knowledge of the last thread.

George

NH K9 (George),

Is there ever a reason why an LEO would legally/ethically TAZE a person lying on their belly handcuffed?

I keep coming back to that. I can't even see a justification for him using his Taser, if indeed that was what he thought he was doing.

I can't wait to hear this.

That comment wasn't NHK9. He borrowed it from another poster on a different thread.

not to poke the monkey anymore, but me too....

My question is - lets assume it was a case of mistaken identity on the weapon.

Wouldn't he notice the pistol's sights aren't the same as his tazer - more importantly the weight difference? No way a tazer and service piece would weigh the same (not any that I ever picked up but I am guessing here)

Guy pulls a weapon - tazer or not and 2 (I believe) other cops don't notice it isn't a tazer but a pistol?

Are we even sure the officer mentioned is issued a tazer?

My apologies as I missed this when Jeff posted it.

I didn't watch the video and most likely won't. I wouldn't utilize a Taser on a subject who was handcuffed and on his stomach. Is it legal? I can't answer that question for every state. Hell, it varies from situation to situation.

I would have a hard time justifying to myself, let alone my boss, why I took such an action. That's me, other have different tools in their bag. I wouldn't carry a Taser if offered one, though.

George

Lets say a female officer weighing in at 100 lbs has a subject cuffed. Lets say it's a man weighing in excess of 200 lbs and he decides he's done cooperating and decides he's going to make his bones by kicking this little chick's azz. Would she be justified in tazing him, assuming she didn't have 10 yrs experience in ju jitsu?

I'd have to ask how a 100lb female cuffed a 200lb bad ass but is incapable of getting out of the way of his flailing feet.

Ain't saying tazers don't have their place - just that it would seem to me that they are becoming a crutch for some officers/departments.

I guess that's what I was getting at with the "different tools" comment. I just didn't want to get into specifics as I've already been held accountable locally for a reference almost exactly like yours.

George

Sometimes guys don't realize that things are bad until the last 'cuff snaps shut. They realize things are real at that point. I've had numerous guys start to fight when the realized they were going for the ride.

George

I'm tempted to call that a cop out.

teal,

Many times people are nice and cooperative until they realize they are going to jail. Any cop who's been on the street long enough has dealt with people just like that.

I understand that, just don't see how (in his particular instance) how an officer couldn't get away from someone kicking at them.

What happens when you shut off the tazer and the guy goes ballistic again? You can't let it run till you get him in a cell.

Somewhere there has to be some SOP for a guy (seeing as we have had LEO for hundreds of years before tazers) who won't cooperate.

Yep, 10 pages was a very safe over................

Oh, no problem.

the female cop in my example is real and her bacon was saved by several motorists driving by. It was pre taser era and she didnt have the strength or skills to save her own azz. Seems most people don't hate cops after all or they would have just stepped back and watched the azz kicking.

I guess I don't know what you want to hear. A Taser use is just another use of force. Whether it is legal or not is dependent on the situation. The fact is, most likely it's going to be ruled legal. If a guy is on his stomach, compliant, with a bunch of cops standing around him and he gets lit and the cops start laughing, I'm betting he gets charged. If there are two cops and the guy is on his stomach in handcuffs and is still trying to get up to fight, it's most likely going to be ruled as justified.

Again, these are all just "what ifs".

I, personally, would not utilize a Taser on a subject in handcuffs. I wouldn't use it regardless of where they were if the hooks were on. Again, that's me and my skill set. I can't, and won't, make that decision for everybody everywhere.

George

I worked the bar scene long enough to see it in person several times - NEVER, not ONCE was a tazer involved. Including when a certain D1 Big 10 defensive linemen got froggy.

Just saying that in this instance with 3 officers there how they would need to use a tazer on the guy is beyond me - no one is superman and if 3 of your officers can't subdue a person who appears to be of average build - without a tazer, you might want to re-evaluate their training regimine some.

I been forcibly subdued by the best (Seals in a training exercise where it was my specific job to resist as much as possible - best damned 8 hours of my hitch - lots of fun that night being an indig rable rouser - 50 cals, helos, mortar sims, full auto fire, gas and flash bang grenades, rocks being tossed) and no tazer was used so I find it hard to see where it should have been in this particular situation.

I am sure there will be a trial and everyone will get their day - but were I a juror I would have a damned hard time discounting the video I watched.

The tazer runs for 5 seconds but can be shut off before that. It can also be re-engaged.

You hang on for dear life and wait for backup.

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I post on other threads on this site also.

If you wouldn't say stupid things, that you know nothing about, such as why LEO's do this or that. I wouldn't respond, to the thread. I am not going to sit here, and let you put out things that are so incorrect, that it's silly. Such as some LEO's get a woody, because they can shoot someone.

I don't care if you don't like the police, i don't like every LEO or organization that i am familiar with either. I resigned from one, that i felt the admin. was wrong in how it treated it's employee's and the citizens within the community.

I don't care if your uncle rode a moped in Maryland. You yourselve have never been involved in the day to day activity of an LE organization. All i am suggesting is that you go out and truly experience what goes on in the streets and how things are handled.

*** The officer in this situation made a very grave mistake, i don't believe it was intentional. This just like all the people in the US who make mistakes with automobiles and people are killed. If the courts decide that this officer, should be tried then so be it.

I honestly can't begin to explain why they couldn't finish the job without the taser in this instance.

I still operate without a Taser and, Chief willing, always will. I also operated solo for a long time, with backup at least 25 minutes away if it came at all.

SOP is easy: use the amount of force that is reasonable and necessary to gain compliance. Stuff the guy in the rear of the cruiser and drive to CJ. If the guy fights after he's in 'cuffs then you do what you need to secure him. If he wants to kick at the cruiser it can always be fixed. If you hit the brakes while they're laying down, they fall into the space between the seat and cage. They don't accomoplish much there.

George

We'll disagree on this one.

EVERY time I pull the trigger, it's intentional. Can't fathom it being otherwise.

My respect for you has increased by one notch. That puts you at notch number one.

I want to know how y'all are watching the video. I get nothing but an error.

George

Well, you're being a condescending bastid today, aren'tcha?

+1

Yeah - you may notice I don't participate in threads like this much but this one struck me.

We are still operating on the assumption he grabbed his service weapon by mistake. Does anyone know if he was even issued a tazer? If not - there is about 0 excuse that a guy could even start with.

If so - what kind and how does he not know it isn't a tazer when looking right down the sights? How does he not notice a weight difference in his hand?

I don't buy 100% the argument he was in high stress - some sure, but high? He was kneeling on the back of a guy, in cuffs with 2 other cops there to help - that shouldn't be all that stressful for a person. I understand coming down off something but from what I see - there was no chase or anything before the arrest.

Dunno - ain't bashing, just wondering and you bet any jury would be wondering the same dang things.

Oh, come on. That's a joke. Ok, I should have put a smilie on it.

I only have 3 showing

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Years ago it was called a sap. One hit and it was lights out. Now the damage to the brain or deaths caused by a sap, was much higher then Tasers.

Q: - do tazers have safetys? I assume he had to take the weapon off safe to discharge it.

Yeah - I know what they are - officers still use batons? As you can tell - I only talk to cops on a good light - De Pere Sgt. and I BS-ed over fishing - these topics don't come up much at the river in -8 degree windchill weather.

Yes, most still have batons. Most that I know carry expandables.

Batons have their own issues. You don't aim for the head, but during a fight schit happens. Same result as a sap.

Public perception of batons isn't great either. Even if a guy's fighting with everything he's got, it doesn't look good if the cops sticking him.

George

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I should of explained. I don't think the intent was to use the Glock, the officer probably did intend to use the Tazer, but not the Glock, that part was unintentional.

Assuming he is issued a tazer. NH K9 isn't so it is fair to ask the question of if he was even issued one.

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That's why it's so important to verbalize when using a baton, with such commands as, "get back or don't resist". This to let the public hear, that your giving commands while using an expandible tire iron.

BS. If you can't tell the difference between one or the other, and don't verify what you have, you have no business with either. Either that officer is unbelievably stupid, or it was intentional, and NO ONE in the former category to the degree necessary to get to that point, would have gotten to that point.

We'll disagree on that one.

Little late by then...........

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I haven't seen the video, i truly don't know if a Taser was on the LEO person or only a sidearm. If he shot the person on the ground, then he must answer for that. Let the criminal & civil courts in the community where it occured decide upon the justice.

Yeah, but I think part of the problem with the cattle prods is the ease with which they can be used consequence-free. This is a formula for abuse and disrespect for the public you're meant to serve. It turns that relationship on its head, in fact.

In the old day, when you had a choice of using your persuasion skills, the stick, or the gun, most cops honed their persuasion skills (or their skills in non-violently controlling a situation) to a very fine point so as to avoid needing to take that huge step of using a baton, for which they'd better have had a damned good reason. But now, with the Taser, it's such an easy and consequence-free device to use on the public (It's use always seems to get that seal of approval of being deemed consistent with department policy) that it's used first, rather than as a last resort.

The result is a police force with very little respect for the public they're meant to serve, since they see everyone they come in contact with as someone who, given the slightest provocation, they can have writhing in pain on the ground with the full approval and support of their superiors, absent any legal consequences. It's like having a compliance button.

Teal,
Tasers have an on off lever that you must turn on first before pulling the trigger. Tasers are significantly lighter than Glocks, or any other duty weapon. Many departments have a policy that has officers carry Tasers on the opposite side to minimize the chance of an officer grabbing the wrong one by mistake. There are two taser designs, one that has a handle more like a Glock, and the other with a handle significantly shorter.

Thanks for the info - I am seriously wondering how then a person could mistake one for another. Aren't they usually yellow as well?

See, we can find common ground .

I was taught by the "old school". You made every attempt to talk people into 'cuffs. If that didn't work, you convinced them that you would end the fight quickly and violently if it came to that. If that didn't work, you backed up #2. That was the way it had to be because we were often alone. Most times, option 1 was the way to go.

The Taser, and similar tools, take away from some of that and I see people on the street that make me shudder.

George

Clean shoot. Clearly self-defense!

I'll take the over,now!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
No it isn't. Your verbalizing the entire time to the subject, when the subject increases their force to the point that you use a baton, your still verbalizing. Your giving verbal commands through it all until the subject complies. If you've got any questions you can call the folks at ASP in Appleton, WI. 1-800-236-6243.

Well at least they aren't claiming the guy went Vince Foster and committed suicide by shooting himself in the back...

Yeah, that's about par for the course for you, Isaac.

Ok that puts you up to notch number eight.

You're a [bleep] idiot.

Where do you dream this crap up? In the crapper? Because it sure isn't in any of the literature on policing or police history.

NK K9,

In the video the suspect is lying on his belly surrounded by 3-4 officers. He's not flopping around or kicking. The shooter stands up, TAKES AIM for a second or so, and shoots.

The situation was a little chaotic, but there had to have been a half-dozen officers in sight, and the guy who got shot was subdued and prostrate on the ground.

Does that sound like a fair description of the video to all of you?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Persuasion skills, conflict resolution etc. Is still taught in many academies and inservice training across the country. One of the better is a program called verbal judo, that i've attended years ago and did a refresher a couple of years ago.

I think if you got involved in a reserve program Hawkeye, you'ld see that citizen/police contact isn't all based upon negative. LE spends alot of time verbally working through situations with the public. What do you have to loose, other then gaining experience and knowledge.

Back in the 60's and 70's LE used alot more force then they do today. Alot of the reason that the systems today are present, is due to eliminating some of the items that were used as less then lethal years ago. If you don't think so watch some film of the riots in Birmingham and other SE cities at the time. Physical force was used in the 70's to include saps, flashlights, sap gloves.

I remember holding a steering wheel in the 70's when riding with a deputy who was a family friend, enroute to fight in progress at a tavern, while the deputy was pulling on his sap gloves. But where i grew up in the PNW, the parties normally fighting were loggers and it was punch or be punched, they didn't respond to verbal commands well.

Of course. That's the way it happened.

You were there?

Or, is that your interpretation?

Simply put, this is a LONG way from over, and I've already given my interpretation of what I think, but it's simply that. Fact, it ain't. Nor is anyone else's interpretation.

Jeff,

Given that, I'm not sure why a Taser would be deployed. Again, I'm assuming he used his sidearm by mistake. Why six cops couldn't deal with a prone suspect is beyond me, but I wasn't one scene.

If it turns out the sidearms was deployed intentionally, that's an entirely different ball game. If the suspect was handcuffed behind his back, his hands should have been in view. Seems like an imminent use of deadly force would be difficult given the description.

George

Unlike the situation on the other thread, this one has a video tape of the event in question.

Prior to the President's Commission on Law Enforcement (PCLE) in 1967 the Police carried 3' riot batons and used them freely. Mouthing off to a cop often led to you spitting out teeth after you woke up. The earlier you go back in our policing history to the first official police force the more brutal the police were. To get "arrested" in the 1800's was often a death sentence. Even after the PCLE, the Police were brutal. Hell, growing up we didn't dare say a bad word to a cop. You'd get a stop over on side street on the way to jail for an attitude adjustment. Just in the last two decades has civil litigation forced departments to address the brutality issue, ergo, the development of less-than-lethal alternatives such as the taser.

Hawkeye doesn't know a GD thing about the police or policing.

Breaking news!!!!..the officer was awarded a medal for doing his job..the suspect was found to have commtted several violent crimes and was in posession of crack cocaine,... dude resisted and died..way to go blue. At least that is the way it should shake out..I am sick of this lawsuit happy arse grabbn liberal preachn give me sumthn for free or I is gonna sue you world. Our forefathers are turning in their graves.. Simply just shoot every criminal dead in the back better yet public hangings are cheaper..crime will halt abruptly..If our constitution can be bent to allow rights to illegals and those whom do not work and pop babies out like ciggarette butts it can bend to protect the rights of those whom protect us. Go to your local crime spree hood purchase a throwdown and shoot the crapper that sold it to you..Reckon that might work? Sorry for the vent I was just robbed. Actually I ain't sorry so if you don't like it kiss off your the problem. The dude resisted he broke the law, he is dead. You think he was a good guy yeah right.

Hope you drive the speed limit cuz 5 over will get you 6 under with your way of thinking.

OVER-- THIS COP WAS ESPECIALLY BAD

UNDER--Tragic Mistake by a good Cop

We'll send flowers to your wife the next time you're stopped for speeding.........................

Everyone having video cameras in their pockets sure is changing things, in this case and in other ways too, and this is just the beginning...

I'd rather a .45 in my pocket, but if you wanna carry a video camera, well, have at it.

Whatever Obamites.

Definitely Under.

Sure it sucks if he was a upstanding American citizen.. NOT..As mentioned there is no shortage of these types living on our checks and stealing from our pockets litterally but if you want to protect them thats your biz.,,his loved ones whom feel the loss and sorrow maybe should have provided a little more home training..Or would you like to see resisting arrest made legal?

BTW I don't speed ever No Sheet. I am the guy in the long bed diesel f250 that doesn't give a rats arse if you want to go around me and my rig at mach 9..We are all friends here it just sucks that most likely some justice came about by divine intervention and you guys don't rejoice, I feel for the LEO.

Try again.

Obamite?

Dude, you're clueless.

I carry a .40 myself (if actually carrying in a pocket), but a .45 will do in a pinch I guess also <G>.

I meant, most cell phones are also video camera's, VA. This video in question was from a cell phone.

I'm beginning to feel for him too - because he realizes he's made a tragic mistake.

So Clueless yep thats me. Its a shame the other fine gents against the wall weren't stacked on top of their buddy. Complete pass threw woulda been nice..see I know quantity and quality.

amx, thanks for the link. That one opened.

After watching the video, I don't believe the transition to sidearm was deliberate. I know most of you already settled that, but I hadn't until now. With another officer in the position he was, I don't think he would have fired.

I also can't see why he would have been going to Taser. They didn't have complete control, but it wasn't a drag-out either.

I feel for both parties and families.

George

Now, the question is what will happen to the guy? He needs to go to jail not just be fired. Hey, it was a mistake. He shouldn't get a murder rap, but it was at least negligent homocide and quite possibly manslaughter. There really is no excuse for mistaking a handgun for a TASER.

I'm assuming that will be for a Grand Jury to decide.

Well I for one am glad tasers have the look and feel of a sidearm. If they were just a square box with a button on the face who knows how many innocent tv sets would be tasered or how many criminals would be blasted by radio waves from garage door openers...

In all reality it does seem he grabbed the wrong weapon. It also seems no weapon at all was called for by that point in time. Bad call... times 2. And he's gonna pay for it. It'll ruin his life. But not as much as that little girl or other family. And certainly not as much as the victim...

headlines:
Tough guy who doesn't know right hand from left tries tasering an already-subdued suspect. Suspect shot and killed. Manslaughter charges imminent. Film at eleven.

No wonder - everybody saw this when it happened http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROn_9302UHg

Rodny King should have obeyed the order to stay down while the officers were beating him with those night sticks.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Didn't all the LAPD officers in that case receive Fed. prison time for violation of civil rights, besides loosing their jobs?

Absolutely.

That's why I won't carry a double-action revolver or semiauto or any other gun that has a trigger without a break-dawn.

Competing with them? Plinking with them? Hunting with them? Absolutely, no problem. But if I ever have a gun pointed at another human being with my finger on the trigger, I want to know precisely where the point in the trigger pull is where the next tenth of a millimeter will fire the gun. I imagine that without a break-dawn it would be altogether too easy to try to stage the trigger and accidentally go just a bit too far, especially when suffused with adrenalin.

If I were a judge and some defense lawyer tried a "My client didn't intend to fire the gun, Your Honor, it just went off accidentally," I think I'd see if I could get that lawyer horsewhipped.

There is such a thing as an accidental (not negligent) discharge--I had one happen once when I dropped the bolt on a gun whose firing pin had just broken--but nobody is ever hurt by one, because the muzzle is always pointed in a safe direction when it happens!

Right?

If not, as far as I'm concerned, that's criminal negligence.

Strick9, I'm sorry, but you are an azzhole with this attitude.
The police must answer to the same ;egal standards as the rest of us citizens.

You remind me of a saying of my father's.

1. Speak softly and carry a big stick.

2. If that doesn't work, speak loudly and wave your big stick.

3. If that doesn't work, shut up and use your big stick.

Barak,

If I'm ever unfortunate enough to be stuck as an FTO again, I'm using that.

George

"1. Speak softly and carry a big stick.

2. If that doesn't work, speak loudly and wave your big stick.

3. If that doesn't work, shut up and use your big stick."



I like that. It reminds me of a self-defense instructor I knew. He always said, "if you can't talk your way out of a fight walk away. If you can't walk away, run. If you can't run away you hit first and you hit HARD!"

I think these are both good advice.

Dono what an FTO is, but my father is full of memorable sayings. Another one: "'"Vengeance is mine," saith the Lord.' But sometimes...we get to watch."

Yep.

PS Have to disagree with you on the double action revolver, though. It is about the ideal solution for the very concern you stated, because it requires a relatively long trigger stroke under resistance to fire it in the double action mode, and you have no business starting the pull if you do not intend to fire it that very instant.

I'm going to share that with my classes Barak, if you don't mind.

Sorry, Field Training Officer.

George

Doubt I'll read the whole thread, so this might have been addressed, I believe these were BART officers.

Sure--it isn't even mine.

This is easily going OVER because all COPS ARE BAD

Nope, you gravy sucking anarchist, its gonna die out UNDER because all COPS ARE GOOD

Depends on how many posts per page you run - this is only page 3 for me - rarely does anything (even hot chick threads) run 10 pages for me.

This is page 15 for me.

Pulling a double-action trigger without staging it isn't particularly conducive to accuracy. As long as your trigger finger is actually moving, the geometry of the combination of your hand and the gun is changing, which means the barrel is unavoidably waggling around. That doesn't have to be true if your muscles are merely increasing pressure on the trigger but not actually moving it.

At arm's-length range there's no reason to stage; but if the guy is running away dragging my daughter, I'm going to want all the accuracy I can get so as to pot him but not my daughter. I'd want to stage the trigger, make one final check while I tune my aim to ensure that he hasn't dropped my daughter in order to run faster, and then squeeze off the shot. Wouldn't want to accidentally over-stage into a premature shot and then discover I shouldn't have taken it.

Admittedly, this is getting into some pretty esoteric stuff. I don't mean to disrespect anybody else's personal choice in carry guns or to claim that my own is objectively best: just to mention that I agree with you about intentionality, and my agreement is what has driven me to make the choice I've made.

What exactly do you carry?

As for double action revolvers not being accurate in the double action mode, I can quickly hit steel plates the size of human heads fifteen yards away like clockwork, and I'm no competition champion either. There are no physical properties of a double action trigger pull that makes it inherently inaccurate. It's as accurate as the shooter is practiced.

rabble rouser!

Usually a Glock 17. Occasionally a Star BM, which is a 1911-style SA.


As I said, I'm not interested in disrespecting anyone else's choice. If it's just me that can't hit the side of a barn with an unstaged DA, fine.

This, is precisely correct.

Page 8 for me. Look, I'm enthralled by this stuff, so I've printscreened stills of some of the video. There's probably a better way to capture the stuff frame by frame, but I don't know it. For better or worse, I'm posting what I've got so far.










[img]http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm452/amx1165/Project11-1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm452/amx1165/Project12.png[/img]

[img]http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm452/amx1165/Project13.png[/img]

[img]http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm452/amx1165/Project14.png[/img]

And these are the officers just after the shooting
[img]http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm452/amx1165/Project5.png[/img]

So just fire single action.

And thanx for the opening to allow me to post this pic . . . .



BMT

The best shooters I used to compete against never staged their triggers, shot double action only. But then again what did they know.

One was the first in the country to ever shoot a perfect 600-60x in PPC. Someone should tell him to stage his trigger, he'd shoot better.

Can anyone tell from my pics if any of these officers are carrying anything like a Taser?

Of Course . . . .

BMT

This is precisely correct.

Everyone knows that the police make mistakes.i'm sure i've upset my share of lawyers french fry salesman shrimp boat captains and what have you i never whipped out my Glock and backshot any of them.If i were on a jury i'd have no choice but to see this officer off to Holman and a date with the needle supposedly a more humane way than 'Bama's Yellow Mama.

Six rounds in seven seconds from the holster, one handed, doesn't lend time to stage............................................

If the sights are shifting either your grip is wrong or your using way too much finger on the trigger.

If you follow the training routine described in Ed McGivern's Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, you will develop a non-staged double action trigger stroke and become very accurate and fast in your double action revolver shooting.

Shooting DA is an acquired skill. Those who can do it well can shoot as good as anyone but it takes practice. I wore a raging blister into a leathery callous learning how before I could even begin to approach my level of competency with a 1911. Now, I can beat my armed officers (Glock 23�s) at the monthly qualifications with my DA-only 2� M-64. My boss is an old retired cop from IL and he�s right there with me with his M-10.

Over-Its already at 8 on the first day and besides ALL COPS ARE BAD.

UNDER, teh thread has already been hijacked into a pistol technique discussion. That is because ALL COPS ARE GOOD

Only in your dreams.............................................

Like sayin all lawyers are honest.

Very nice!

Duuude . . . .

I are a lawyer, and I would NEVER, EVER go that far.

BMT

Thanx.

One of the good parts about getting older--I can afford to go to ThunderRanch.

That's me a Clint at "Revolver" school.

BMT

Clint Smith?

Yep.

It was very thoughtful of him to move into my state, and set up shop a few miles down the road from one of my buds -- a bud that my wife likes and respects to boot.

It all worked out soooooo well. . . . .

BMT

I can. In this case not intentional as in the Officer manifestly wasn't paying full attention to what is right hand was doing.

Long known fact; when ya ain't concentrating on doing something your body reverts to what is popularly termed "muscle memory". A remarkable faculty. It allows us to walk down the street while thinking of something else, or even drive a manual transmission car whithout thinking about that either.


This is why we practice, to build in a sequence of physical motions into our subconscious. But there's a flip side....

Have you never locked yourself out of your house or car while holding an object in your hand that FELT like your keys? Closed the door before you thought about it? Said "Oh damn!" the moment the door locked behind you? Same thing.

This is precisely why some PD's dictate carrying the tazer on the opposite side, so that an arm intitially directed to grab "tazer" doesn't grab "pistol" instead while the owner's full attention is directed elsewhere.

As for pulling the trigger, I'm wondering if the guy hadn't been practicing at home, drawing and dry firing, putting THAT into his muscle memory..

(Dry firing for practice to me is a completely idiotic endeavor. It plants the concept of pulling the trigger without consequences in the muscle memory. I once unthinkingly blew a hole in my wall in that very manner )

Regardless, I'd also like to know if that was a standard 5.5 lb Glock trigger. Any handgun I'd use for serious business would need at least an 8lb trigger and up (preferably 12)... PRECISELY because lighter triggers can be pulled unthinkingly under stress or surprise.

Birdwatcher

Ya don't look that old, I wouldn't put you a day past........................................................ 60



Think I remember a case about a computer programmer who left happy hour one day, ran a red light on the way home and killed a woman plus her two kids. Happened a few years back down by Detroit. Must make all computer programmers drunkin murderers.

Well spit! I'd logged out already. Now I guess I gotta take back my litter. I can't help it if The_Real_Hawkeye wants to leave in his "".

Prolly be tomorrow before anybody wants to help me analyze the BART cops anyway. Personally, I don't think any of them were carrying Tasers, but I need some informed input.

What was his time on the "El Presidente'?" Was it a stock gun or had there been trigger work done on it?

If I'm calling the drill by the wrong name, I'm referring to 3 targets at 15 yds, 2 rounds into each target, reload, then 2 more rounds into each target.

Can't understand why so much energy into something we don't know anything about. Why not wait for the officer's dept. or lawyer to make a statement, then we'll know his side of the story, if he thought he was reaching for a taser, if he had a taser.

Tragic accident, I don't think anyone really thinks at this point he meant to execute a kid in front of a train load of witness's. Whether he got flustered, or is plain stupid, he is going to have to pay along with the city.

Over-All cops are bad and this needs to be discussed ad infinitum

Under-All cops are good and thats why they train at ThunderRanch.

Even - All cops are neither bad nor good, they just are.

Lao Tsu

Dry firing is essential for proper trigger control. I agree, though, that it should not be incorporated with a draw and fire type drill, unless, you would be shooting in that scenario anyway. IOW, a training exercise that incorporates as much realism as possible minus the ammunition. ALL competition shooters, pistol and rifle, incorporate dry-firing in their training regimen. Just plain static dry firing, holding a proper stance and focusing on keeping the front sight from moving. No draw and fire...just pulling the trigger.

Among gun nuts there are two types regarding negligent discharges:

Those who admit having had at least one (or more) negligent discharges, and

liars.

His time on the "El Presidente?"

Jeff Cooper recommended frequent dry fire practice from the holster.

Also, you will have to call me a liar, because since I first picked up a real firearm in the 1970s till this day, I have never had a gun go off in my hand that I didn't intend to go off.

Things I learned in this thread:

1.) You must stage the trigger on your double action revolver in order to shoot accurately.

2.) Dry firing should not be done.

3.) Dry firing can be done, but never from the holster.

4.) TRH just jinxed himself.

Travis

Don't Tase me Dude!!

Just shoot me in the back.

Bart officers don't seem to have the same qualifications as regular city cops correct?

If this was indeed a mistake it is still murder.
If it was intentional, it's heinous murder

Dude, that's gotta be hard on your leg.

BMT

I'm assuming this pertains to me. I put my energy into it because I can. You gotta remember - ordinarily I live in a truck 24/7 and don't get the chance to tear apart something so profound. I like doing that kind of stuff, but alas, I never have the opportunity.

I see your point though, and appreciate the diplomatic manner in which you made it. But what the heck - nobody was hurt, and maybe there'll be one or two people who'll be interested in my pics later on.

For now however, it seems as if I'm infringing on a private conversation between friends in which I'm not qualified to participate in. I know nothing about Thunder Ranch; Clint Smith; Glocks (sounds like a bird of some kind to me); double action triggers; etc., etc., etc.

Although I did just learn that

The thread's no longer interesting to me, and so I'll leave it alone for a while.

BTW, if you were addressing me - Putting the little arrows and text on the stills was easy. The hard part was trying to enlarge the actual shooting enough to tell what the shooter is doing without making them so blurry as to be indeterminable. I think I failed in that regard, but I still enjoyed the process.

When the feces hits the fan you do what you practice or train. I trained police officers with the most modern methodology available; everything we have learned about police shootings. One example is an officer was killed because he failed to reload; he was picking up his spent brass because that's what they had to do at the range after every cylinder was fired and ejected. I feel sorry for the innocent person you draw on under stress. His/her fate will be the same as this person you all have convicted this officer for killing.

With regard to the negligent discharge; you don't seem to have any problem living a delusional existence - live with that too.

Glad I took the over on this one.

Well, you're a better man than I. I've had one accidental discharge that I don't see as negligent (the one I mentioned where the firing pin broke), and one negligent discharge (well, two, actually) where a 308 semiauto rifle that I knew had slamfire problems fired an unexpected three-round burst with recoil lofting the third round over the backstop. I should have known better than to fire that rifle with more than one round in the magazine until I had addressed the slamfire problem.

Aside from those, none so far.

Well, stay prepared. I ain't gonna say it can't happen, but I've yet to see anyone who handles firearms A LOT not have an AD.

What's your best time drawing and firing, putting two rounds on each target at 15 yards, reload, and put two more rounds on each target utilizing the McGivern/Cooper methodology?

All the more reason to observe Rule Two religiously.

Yep. Agreed. It was murder even if the killing was unintentional if the cop forced the victim into a helpless position without justification. If placing him under arrest (placing him in a helpless state) was not actually justified, the cop is 100% responsible for whatever happens to him while in that helpless condition. Just like if I were to forcibly grab someone and place him on the edge of a precipice. If a gust of wind then blew that person off, and he fell to his death, that would be murder.

Even if the arrest was warranted, but drawing a weapon on him while helpless was not, the cop is 100% responsible for any harm that comes to him while doing that unwarranted and highly dangerous act. Therefore, (assuming his defense is that he thought it was a stun gun) if it is determined that stunning him while cuffed was not justified, his death by handgun constitutes murder.

I'd tell you to complain to the man himself, but he can no longer hear you.

I don't recall my time in the El Presidente stage. Only time I get timed in shooting is when I'm in a match, and the only thing I care about then is where I place, not my individual time per stage.

PS I have extensively drilled using the method described by McGivern (for revolver) in his book Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, and I have extensively drilled using the method described by Cooper (for 1911s) in his book To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth. Are you suggesting they gave bad advice in these regards?

I do not doubt it. Extreme speed and accuracy using a non-staged double action (revolver) stroke is not a rare thing, when the shooter is willing to put the time into developing the skill.

I was originally trained in this skill back in 1980 by a retired Deputy Sheriff who reminded one (in both appearance and personality) of the late great Bill Jordan. I had just taken the police entrance exam, scoring in the high 90s. Never owned, let alone shot, a handgun before, and didn't want to go in cold, so I hired this man (also an NRA certified defensive handgun instructor) to instruct me. He had me use his own two inch Combat Masterpiece .38 Special for the lessons. That's when I first learned to appreciate the virtues of the Smith & Wesson double action revolver.

Twas an indoor NRA-PPC match, B-27R targets. You could cover the 30 shots on his targets with a $.50 piece.

The officer resigned according to this.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/18426590/detail.html#-

Fox News reports on violent protests of this incident. Here's video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TMgyRsxKH4

Now I'm conflicted. I don't know whether to be surprised, happy or frustrated that you have made an accurate post!

Aren't all of my assertions accurate?

You're obviously a man of some integrity, though, if you can bring yourself to admit it.

I don't think it's your first. Just the been a long time!

You're such a kidder.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I don't believe any of the LEO's on this site agreed that the incident was correct. We did explain the technical operation of a Taser along with it's application. This along with other less then deadly use of force equipment, along with use of force application. So before you pat yourself on the back that your the only one who thought this shooting was wrong, your wrong.

If they are advocating drawing and aiming and dry firing, yes, that's bad advice. Court-mandated training says draw and fire less than 20% of the time. That was the national average on police shootings when a weapon was drawn when that court ruling came down. I suspect it's less now but I have no proof.

You're building muscle-memory (for lack of a better term) to pull the trigger when you pull your weapon, IF, you are pulling the trigger every time you draw. If you build into that training a 1:4 ratio of shoot-don't shoot then you're fine.

If you ever shoot someone, and the defense finds out that's how you train, all your protestations of doing it for accuracy's sake will fall on deaf ears. The state's attorney will put you in jail and the plaintiff's attorney will win the law suit.

From the holster is the only way we shoot the first round. Why wouldn't you? Muscle memory? So now because of muscle memory, every time I draw my weapon I pull the trigger?

I guess that explains all those holes around my lock-box next to the bed.

LMAO

Travis

'Dood,

This interests me. The other Sgt. is in charge of the firearms program, but I still have input. If you have the cites on this handy, would you ship them to me. If you don't want to PM, I'll give you my email.

George

Seeeeeeeeee . . . . . .

I told you so.

Its the tenth page because ALL COPS ARE BAD

It only went over because of your insistence on keeping this stupid argument running. What're trying to make Kahuna or something?

ALL COPS GOOD--Deal wtih it.

BMT

The only thing that matters in Florida is justification.

OK.

It's your freedom and your money.

Never scene a bunch of cops with guns drawn in a felony stop?

There's a thread on here where Jennifer Anniston held a turd at gun point until the police arrived.

LMOA my azz...

Diasagree.

After speaking with Judges, DAs, Defense attorneys and LEOs over the years on thing stands out:

A CLEAN SHOOT IS A CLEAN SHOOT.

All that other stuff (handloads, practice, training logs, etc.) are for questionable shoots.

Just my 2 cents.

BMT

You are precisely correct.

Yes, I have seen a bunch of LEO's with their gun's drawn. The same guys that practice from the holster shooting all the time.

My previous post was a little rude. I want to be sure I'm understanding you correctly.

If a person (LEO or private citizen) draws his weapon and shoots a person that "shoot" will either be justified, or not. End of story.

If a guy is shooting well from the "high ready", or "low ready" but sucks on his first round out of the holster. He can shoot all the rounds he freakin' pleases from the holster in order to bring up his shooting skills. Correct?

If you are saying a court order exists concerning LEO's that's fine. I've never heard of it, but I have no reason to not believe you. But I read your post to mean it's a bad idea to practice firing from the holster in general. In which case, I respectfully disagree.

Travis

I won't quibble with that.

But many shoots aren't clean shoots and often hinge on perceptions. I don't know the ratio but the fact is not all shoots are clean shoots and I trained our guys to make sure that, if possible all shoots were clean shoots, or, if not clean, they had the training to back them up in court.

Adhere to case law and play it safe.

That is precisely correct.

You are precisely correct, to an extent .

A clean shoot can be ruled "clean" by the investigating agencies, but you can still lose your azz due to the circumstances of that "clean" shoot in a civil case.

Meeting training requirements via case law puts up extra barriers and decreases dollar signs. Low-light shooting being one good example.

George

Just reading Yahoo news about the rioting in Oakland, and came up with this gem.

I think these may qualify as some of the stupider words ever written.

"............. others think the officer had mistakenly his handgun for a stun gun.

"If he was under stress he would not be able to distinguish between a Taser and his firearm," said Bruce Siddle, founder of PPCT Management Systems, an Illinois company that trains law-enforcement officers in use-of-force."

Go figger,

GTC

In Florida, if it's a good shoot from a criminal law perspective, you are shielded from civil suit on the matter.

Yeah, I'd say that qualifies as a pretty stupid statement. Nevertheless, they should not design a stun gun that resembles in looks, feel, and operation, a policeman's sidearm.

No, of course it's not a bad idea to practice from the holster. My numbers may be a little off, but the "average" gun fight occurs between individuals that are about 6 feet apart, lasts less than 3 seconds and something like 2.3 shots are fired. You can bet if you're not drawn you better be proficient in drawing and firing and in a hurry.

The point I'm trying to get across is simply this; you need to practice drawing and covering a threat too. The fastest draw in the world is to have your gun in high-ready, agreed? There are many situations that are threatening enough to draw a firearm, even brandish it to back a threat down, but do not reach the level of imminent serious bodily injury or death. Thus, you are covering the threat, BUT, not shooting.

The courts were addressing the police in that training decision, but as more and more civilians carry firearms they too will be expected to be justified in their actions. I can't teach a use of force class on this forum, but I hope I got my point across in that rambling paragraph.

Interesting. Are you applying the above to only civilians or does LE fall under this at the State level as well?

It also does nothing as far as the 4th Am. issue at the Federal level.

George

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Many states no longer keep on file regarding LEO's the actual score that an LEO received during range qualifacation. The only information kept at an agency or submitted to POST is pass/fail, which many states is 70% on a fifty round qualifacation.

The reason is less info. to feed the sharks during a trial. Dep. Smith shoots 100% all the time, yet during a shooting situation a couple of rounds go astray and injure or kill someone else, it'll come into question. Regarding a shooting situation, there's two sides of the coin. You maybe criminally cleared, but a civil suit can still be brought.

Unless you're this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLnmvseCseI&NR=1

Yep.

It went to Pass/Fail.

If Dep. Smith shoots 100% how did he possibly miss and hit my client??

That wouldn't help LE at all in the seizure (4th) issue.

That I don't know.

That's what I was thinking as well.

George

All the attorneys on the board are PM'ing each other, saying, "Buncha fuggin amateurs."

No, I was simply thinking it to myself . . . . .

BMT

I've never claimed to be a lawyer and realize, outside of issues like DWI, etc., that I can't run in that realm.

What I am is an expert in what keeps me from getting my azz sued off .

My one career goal is to keep my name off of a Supreme Court decision.

George

SAFETY TIP! Leave Bob Lunduns wife alone.

Hawkeye, You up around Tallahassee? We always take the hounds up around Lake Talquin.

Will be up there in about 3 weeks

Hoot

Just a couple of hours from there, but won't have any time till after February.

I remember a friend of mine telling me about a slain officer who failed to take his safety off and interpreted this as his gun being jammed. He then proceeded to eject all of his rounds. Fear and adrenalin, it can override a whole lot of training.

Sounds more like he wasn't trained or was trained incorrectly. When I transitioned to a .45, the course hammered that into me...DROP THE THUMB SAFETY ON THE WAY OUT OF THE HOLSTER. I did the exact same thing the slain officer did in a controlled environment; I ejected every round because I thought I had a malfunction. I learned though. I had a 1000 round 1-week transition course. I had blood-blisters and scrapes and cuts all over both hands.

But I could make that .45 do what it was built to do.

You WILL do what you were trained to do especially when adrenalin starts pumping.

OK. Just gotta jump in here now, late to the party.

LEOs. Please confirm that the difference between a Glock and a Taser in a situation like this is:

1) A taser is carried on the opposite side of the firearm. I take it that its in a crossdraw holster.

2) A Taser is considerably lighter weight than a Polymer pistol with a full Magazine.

3) A taser must first be turned on. A Glock you just need to pull the trigger.

4) A taser has a Yellow Muzzle??


5) In a situation like BART, would you sometimes carry just a Taser and at other times just a Sidearm? Another thing came to mind: If you worked 2 jobs; One a Security Gaurd where you could carry a sidearm(with or without a taser), the other job in a position where you don't carry but have a Taser, wouldn't it be essential that the taser always remain as a crossdraw weapon??

There's been considerable discussion on having a Taser design that is significantly different than a sidearm, but it seems there are a lot of significant differences in the design and carry modes. I understand the issues of stress and muscle memory makes people do crazy things, but is there anything ELSE that could be done to add more differentiation between the two?

Very good post 'Dude. That is likely where the civil suit will lead, to the "Failure to Train" on behalf of the department. The "deep pockets" of the agency can't be reached by the officers actions alone.

It's clear that the subject posed some kind of threat to the officer. Otherwise the officer wouldn't have thought he needed to clear leather with either a taser or a Glock.....right?


Regular folks like us might not be able to ascertain the threat a guy laying on the ground could pose because we aren't highly trained officers of the law. I'm just thankful the cop got the drop on the subject before things got ugly.

I'm assuming your'e trolling.

Nope. It's called sarcasm.

Okay. Thought I'd missed something.

Two of the biggest reasons for lawsuits against an agency as you well know are, failure to train and failure to dismiss due to poor perfomance or unlawful type actions.

1. In my Dept it's mandatory carry opposite of your firearm

2. My taser weighs considerably less. I can't fathom the two being mistaken.

3. Yup

4. No. Depends on the type of cartridge being used.

5. Just a taser would not be an option for a sworn officer. as for 2 different jobs, consistency to your training would be the key.

So I'm curious, does anyone think this officer did exactly what he intended?

Yep.

Sure, he probably went to work that day and said "I'm gonna shoot the first guy in handcuffs I see, 'cause I really hate this job and I've always wanted to see what prison looks like from the inside.".

Good question.

So given three scenarios..


1. Officer in the heat of the moment made a terrible mistake.

2. This officer should have never been given the job because he is just too stupid and not equipped to handle the job.

3. This officer decided, screw it, I'm going to pop this guy, and I don't give a damn who sees it or the repercussions afterward.

You're going with 3?

I'm taking either one or two until I hear more facts. I did hear that this officer had been accused of excessive force in the past, but still, deliberate murder for really no reason? I can't make that leap just yet.

There is option #4. I'm not saying it was that was but it could have been something like this.

4. It's just a no account n***er. There will be no repercussions.

And my cop buddies will back me up on the story (Good thing there aren't any video cameras recording this).

I can. From what I saw, the hesitation, the reach-recoil-reach-draw-AIM-FIRE looked plenty deliberate. In my mind, and in my eyes, he WANTED to shoot that guy. Maybe just for a split second, but that's all it took. He did what he WANTED to do, and the repercussions are going to destroy him (as they should).

Never said it was smart, or that he might not regret it (now), but to me, it looked like he deliberately shot that guy.

Of course, YMMV, and as I said, that's just my impression.

I think both of those fall under #3

Another not to bright statement,
again,


go figger
GTC

I can. From what I saw, the hesitation, the reach-recoil-reach-draw-AIM-FIRE looked plenty deliberate. In my mind, and in my eyes, he WANTED to shoot that guy. Maybe just for a split second, but that's all it took. He did what he WANTED to do, and the repercussions are going to destroy him (as they should).

Never said it was smart, or that he might not regret it (now), but to me, it looked like he deliberately shot that guy.

Of course, YMMV, and as I said, that's just my impression. [/quote]

Haven't really seen any good footage yet, but agree that is how it appears.

I don't know, there is always this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnCnqOQSQ8E

From the "my gun writer can beat up your gun writer" dept....

William Ewart Fairbairn, survivor of thirty years and more than 200 violent encounters on the mean streets of Shanghai, later to become the Founding Father of Spec Ops, and author of the epochal tome "Shooting to Live", IIRC makes no mention of the practice...

...tho he otherwise does pretty much cover all the topics that would much later be debated endlessly over this side of the pond by a host of lesser scribes beginining about 25 years after the fact.

With respect to gun writers and dry-firing, the story persists that Bill Jordan, late in his career, by accident mortally wounded a fellow BP Officer on the other side of a wall.

Massad Ayoob relates a similar tragic story of an elderly gentleman who was fond of dry firing his .45 at the TV, who fatally shot his wife inadvertently through the wall behind the TV.

I believe it was the good Colonel Cooper who did allow that every Police Station in America has a bullet hole or two in it, or maybe Ayoob wrote that I forget.

Along those lines, Skeeter Skelton related the tale of a young BP Officer, fond of drawing and dry-firing his service revolver, who blew a whole in his Commander's locker one day.

Sooo.... If the good Colonel DID recommend the practice, that'd make three areas me and him disagree, along with scout scopes and one's dignity being worth the taking of a life (re: carjackings).

I brought up the question of dry firing on account of how the way the Officer in that video unthinkingly drew, aimed briefly and then squeezed was exactly reminiscent of a guy who had done that a 100 times to his TV set.

I'll allow that the one dry trigger pull out of four unholsterings method mentioned above probably has merit, especially given the Koppel statistic that about 95% of the time merely drawing a defensive firearm is enough to deter a threat. Hence, we are statistically far more likely to draw and NOT fire than the alternative.

Trust me, if one has been going...

....draw-"click", draw-"click", draw-"click", draw-"click", draw-"click", draw-"click"...

....enough times over and over, that is exactly what one will do under stress except that a draw-"BANG" will follow.

With regards to trigger staging etc etc.... if it DOES ever go down for me it'll most likely happen just as it did back in 1930's Shanghai as per Fairbairn.... within 10 feet, in the dark, outcome decided within two seconds.

I've been shooting my revolver enough years I can stage pretty well if needed, can operate it easily by feel, and can make middle-of-torso hits pretty fast out past 15 yards so.

That will have to do I guess.

And when I did have my own ND, like others here, it was rule number two that avoided possibly tragic consequences.

Birdwatcher

Media now reports that BART police carry Sigs, not Glocks. I first thought the relatively light trigger on a Glock might have predisposed to an unintended discharge but now I don't know. Aren't all Sigs either DA/SA or DAO? What is the lightest trigger pull that could have existed on that pistol at that time? That of course doesn't address all the other issues, such as: Was he following approved procedure by putting the suspect at gun point at that time, etc?

Yeah, but that's only to be expected when you let ladies become cops.

In regards to the shooting I will only say that you cannot remove the dumbphuck chromosome through training. The flip side is, you cannot instill the dumbphuck chromosome through training.

"Golly judge, I'd just gotten so accustomed to pulling the trigger when I cleared leather that I always shoot when under stress."

You also, cannot fire a person (these days) based on the notion that you think he is a dumbphuck.

Travis

Question is, if she popped the perp in the head, would it be a case of murder?

Only the hypothetical jury could determine that.

Again, dumbphuck.

Travis

if you can't tell your phazer set to stun,.....

...from the one set to disintgrate,....

ya' need beamed up to the mother ship for some re-training.

cryin' out loud,.....

GTC

Murder requires malice, but malice requirement can be satisfied with reckless conduct, so maybe, if she was being reckless.

None dood, none at all...

Travis

Travis

I dumped my last post. I apologize. It was bad form for me to do that.

Well I guess that would have to qualify as such.

It's fine dood.

Your post is a good reminder why I don't get involved in these threads anyway.


Travis.

Ain't that the truth, nothing ever changes except that we never get the same bat.

Have a little faith man! A little dumphuck resides within all of us... hence them silly preflight checklists pilots commonly go through....



One could only wish the dp chromosome were that consistent in expression....,

.....but certain training methods can make that particular instance described above a lot more likely... from the sound of it, yours fer example....

Birdwatcher

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Where do you come up with this schit? Again your lack of experience and knowledge of LE is telling. Women LEO's do a fine job. Why don't you make that comment to TLEE reference to his daughter?

Are you pissed because you didn't get hired as an LEO? Even though you continue to throw up your 90% score. How many agencies did you apply to, one? Did you apply to another agency?

I think your pissed at cops, because you didn't get selected. What's wrong is this the one thing that Mommy & Daddy couldn't fix for you.

I am just damn glad that you didn't get selected, that way some other officer wouldn't of got killed due to your ignorance. Maybe someone, knew and saw that LE wasn't the place for you.

Not reading you. Switch to channel three.

The fun will really occur when TRH actually tries to unload his positions in a courtroom, in front of a judge and jury. His attention gathering is on safe, harmless ground here.

He has some pant's pissing days ahead of him if he thinks his silliness will fly in the hallowed walls of real life courtrooms!

Yes. I can see it now. "Your honor. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I submit that this entire proceeding is unconstitutional. I've exhaustively searched my CATO Institute pocket edition of the US Constitution, and I find no mention of stop signs, nor the requirement that anyone stop at them, in that document. Therefore, I call for an immediate dismissal of the state's traffic violation case against my client."

OH...I can see it too!!

So you admit to the attention gathering and safe ground here knowing you wouldn't even attempt that nonsense in an arena of your colleagues who'd seek your committment to a facilty for special folks?

Why don't you read what i posted, do you have issues with truth and reality?

You're a funny man, Isaac. I appreciate the comic relief you so reliably provide here at The Fire.

The real life education will begin when he leaves the school house. It's dog eat dog, among the lawyers, judges, etc. that i see. It's not all love and kindness between them. It's gentle and friendly here.

Actually, your comic relief makes your perceived comedy of mine pale in comparison!

It was a quick and easy cross-examine,Hawkeye!

I hope what I'm posting is of help for you.

I find all of your posts helpful, Isaac. I can always use a laugh.

Ahhhh....the dreams of a layman who thinks and wishes to be!

Hawkeye, you're amazingly myopic.

You have the distasteful ability to ignore reality and ignore the experiences and advice of people who live, and function, successfully, in that reality.

It's not an admirable trait.

Is it training to cover both a suspect AND your partner with a drawn firearm while a suspect is on the ground being cuffed.

Even without the ol' "squeezing the trigger without really paying attention" thing.....

Does your a Cop really want to be covered by the of muzzle their partner's gun?

If you ARE holding a gun on the suspect while he is on the ground being cuffed by your partner and they start to struggle, is your handgun gonna be your first recourse?

...or are you probably going to have to put it away again before you can help?

Whats state of the art Cop procedure here?

Birdwatcher




If you are

Oops! I put this in the wrong place the first time.

State of the art procedure here is to put her in a "closet". Somewhere she won't get anyone killed. She's probably a detective now, that's usually the division where you dump the "Street Survival" flunkies. Maybe DARE or something like that. Ain't many female cops (by percentage)and the jurisdictions are very reluctant to get rid of them.

You know I always take your advice to heart, dude. You've always looked out for my best interests, and don't imagine for one moment that I don't appreciate that fact.

You don't usually resort to sarcasm, but, I must say, it's a refreshing change.

You don't usually resort to sarcasm, but, I must say, it's a refreshing change
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


And, it's understandable. I don't know if he and I could be law partners but I'd sure open up an Italian restaurant with him!

He'd still want some FF's theme though... like, Jefferson Puttanesca!

No. I told you. My restaurant's name is going to be Ristorante Primi Padri.

Then they'll think it's about the Pope!

Hey Hawk, I bought a new bike today.

Motorcycle or the kind you peddle?

Really? Is that what he's called in Italy?

Peddle kind. I've been a bike rider all my life. I know you ride one so I though you might like to know. Ike got my old one, and it's time to start getting in shape for next hurricane season. I may start a new thread to see who the serious bike guys are.

I don't speak Italian but do a little Spanish, which is simular. Sounds like "Big Daddy's Grill" to me.

Cool. What kind? "Mountain bike" or racer style?

I'm starting a thread...not that this one couldn't use a hijack!

It was my attempt at "first fathers," which is as close as I know how to get to Founding Fathers in Italian.

Ok, I researched it, and it should be Ristorante Padri Fondatori or maybe just Ristorante Fondatori.

Hawkeye,

No matter what is written here I've never wished you harm. If I ever said something that you interpreted as such I apologize. I don't harbor any real ill will toward you, and I certainly don't want you to fall on hard times or to be hurt physically.

I always thought some deadly force should be used on Bart. But then again, he really ain't that bad of a guy....grin

Nobody EVER thought that at the Fruitvale BART station at 2 AM.

Sycamore

'joe,

You feelin' ok?

No posts since last night at 7? Has it finally stopped? Or do they just take weekends off?

Finally, The last page.

This was clearly an anti Hispanic choot

that oughta' be good for 2-3 more pages,

joo teen thees founy, ....joos joo wait

GTC

They?

I don't care,....That's funny.

Damn good point, too,...."They" ?

GTC

EES dem damn Gringos,....dem

no sey "They',....say "Dem"

Deeg?

GTC

You know, all the Quotemasters artists and their cronies.

Tells me nothing.

So, just ry another Lawyer joke. . . . .

BMT

No we actually Don't "Know"

please illuminate.

GTC

Damn near below the belt,....still a fair shot.

GTC

Are y'all really this wrapped up in each other that you didn't even notice this?:




designs is spelled wrong though.

Jeez, Man,....cool your jets a bit,

this place is mostly a brawl,....and damn few "Wrapped Up" thet I can see.

who are you, ....anyhoo,....Mr Feelgood, or What?

GTC

I guess it looks too real.

I'm going to bed.

Yup.

GTC

You got that right!

I guess it's only Friday nights y'all take off. Good nite.

"I guess it looks too real."


Damn right it does,....I'm seriously thinkin' of makin' a "Midnight Run" over to the fringe of those Oakland riots, and sellin' off some scrap iron.

Ya' DO have to wonder how many entrepaneurs ( SP?) loaded up trunks and beds,....headed out to feed this trend?

Oakland, .....for those not communicating with friends there, is having a fairly major twist off, at this time.

Media blackout, in place,.....re: same.

Oh Well,

GTC

You could always refrain from reading "our" posts. That is an option. You're welcome.

Aw, c'mon,....let's get a fast ride and go sell some really scrappy guns into the riot,.....

Just kiddin' here.

GTFC

Throw some gas on the fire!

Golly! I never thought of that. Duh! It makes too much sense though.





I'm betting everybody else gets the "Sly like a Fox" report even if y'all are too wrapped up. It looks real, don't it crossfireoops? I don't know nothing about any riots. Who's rioting?