Poor people are poor because they are lazy and stupid. Equal opportunity does not guarantee equal outcome. I'm sick and tired of politicians and lots of other people ranting about helping the "under-priviledged". They made their bed so let them lie in it. I don't believe that they are poor because of their environment or because they had a bad start in a bad situatuon or because they have had bad luck. I make my own luck and I think that most people also make their "luck". That includes people who have not paid their dues, have not invested in their future and who have made one bad decision after another. We reap what we sew.

So I'm not interested in helping the "under-priviledged" or investing any tax dollars in any effort to improve their situation. I work and pay taxes and I deserve to reap the rewards of that effort. They are lazy and stupid and they derserve to reap the just rewards of their lack of effort.

Am I the only one who knows any poor yet hardworking folks? Not too long ago I fit the profile.

Lazy and stupid, Huh. My stepfather lost his left arm at the age of 16 in a hunting accident. He went on to work as a mechanic, and could tear down a motor faster than I can with both arms. At age 50 he tore his rotator cuff and had some nerve damage in his right shoulder. He was doing pretty well at the time. The medical bills piled up and he lost his house before he was found to be disabled. Now tell me was he lazy or stupid or both.

"This ought to generate some discussion"

I think it has....

I don't think folks without cash flow are lazy or stupid at all. Folks fall on hard times.

I will say I meet a lot of folks that want better, but don't like the idea of moving to other states or separating themselves from family for short amounts of time. I've always found that silly. My ol' man (who saw plenty of hard times) always said "go where the money's at."


Travis

KC: "This ought to generate some discussion"
-------------------------------------------

Hopefully, it may also generate some thouhgtfulness- or at least a little compassion. I understand your concerns, but I do balk at your "name calling" and use of such a "broad brush" in deriding all the "poor".

Mark 14:7,
'For you have the poor with you always,
and whensoever you will you may do them good ...'

Dueteronomy 15:11,
'You shall freely open your hand to your brother
to your needy and poor in your land.'

Sounds like a good idea to me ...
-------------------------------

I believe in helping others. I just want to do it on my own terms.

And I agree with the sentiments of the others who replied -

KC,
Noting many discussions and posts from some of the folks around here, I have no trouble believing you will get many to agree with your comments. I'm just not one of them.

As said, too broad of brush. True for some, yes. But bad things do happen to good people, we probably all have friends or relatives that fit that bill at one time or another.

Narrow it down to those who don't WANT to work, and I'll agree with you.

I think if there was a way to kick all the deadbeats out of the system there would be more for the deserving people. But no one wants to make the call because then the lawsuits began due to the interpretation of the law by those who profit by such a system.

I know plenty of folks that don't have much money, but are wealthy in ways that your tiny little mind could not possibly imagine.

pointed reply, edblues, but very nicely put.

Very few people would be unwilling to help somebody who is truly in need. For any number of reasons, good people just get stuck in the mud sometimes. The problem is with the people who "play" the system, with no intention of actually doing anything but munch on the government cheese. Now, the powers that be are fully aware of these types, and also aware that they know how to vote. It is nothing but a power grab, and they are using our money to do it. I don't think government "help" ends up tiding people over during a tough stretch. I think a large percentage use the help as their main source of income. I overheard a woman at a social services office demanding her "paycheck". Uhhh.... check, yes - paycheck? No. The solution? Start investing some bucks in the system for enforcement/oversight, and PAY the social workers enough to attract competent, schooled people. For all the hype about how important those workers are, they are usually very poorly compensated. This leads to the good ones eventually looking for another line of work, and the bad ones staying, but not caring, or open to corruption.Unfortunately, once the under - privileged vote, they have accomplished the goal of the politician.

I would have totally disagreed with you 4 years ago. But since then I've moved from Seattle to Atlanta and wow, what a culture shock. A lot of what you say is correct, Ive never seen so many poor lazy people feeding off the system as I have since I moved to the south. However, like a lot of other posters have said, people do fall on hard times. But, those with a hard work ethic, half a brain, and some drive usually can make it OK... But damn, there area some lazy SOB's here in the south. Way, WAy more then back home...

There are good points to be made on both sides.. And I've seen both sides..

'Nuff said on my part..

there are all kinds of people, lazy, stupid, smart, hard working, etc.. you can apply "rich" or "poor" to any or all of the above.

Gonna generate discussion alright, probably not what you were after however

EVERYBODY is just a couple bad breaks from a kenmore box under an overpass... Some folks that are poor are the lazy a$$ entitlement babies and some have it thrust upon them...

Be safe and poor sux but doesn't necessarily mean lazy..

Patty

Lots of times it's generational. Those families that possess the ethics that bring success, and pass them along to their offspring, do well. It's things like saving with discipline, always having an income stream, being reliable and dependable, willing to learn new things.

Lots of kids are just not raised with that ethic, and the only models they have are folks who live in public housing, spend their money as soon as they get it, and try to exploit the system to get the things they need.

There's really no helping folks like that, and they don't last long in a free society, because in a free society government is not available for exploitation, and if you don't have an income stream, you're starving on the street, and your life is short and painful. That's a powerful motivator for success right there, but it no longer applies so much.

I think what he means are the chronically poor, the ones that start out that way, and never change.
I have had some rough times, but I never thought of myself as 'one of the poor', even when my financial status at the time would have qualified me.
I am certainly not poor now.

I know poor people who are poor by choice: Case in point, the parents of some of the 5th graders I taught in the city. When I'd try to tell the kids to work hard and do well in school so they could get a good job someday, they'd reply: "Why? My mom stays home all day and just has to pick up a check on the first!"

Then there are people who by no fault of their own are poor. Case in point, a lot of the guys I know who work in the HVAC field right now. Hard-working guys who are being laid off left and right because work has declined. They will work again, to be sure, but for the time being their fortunes have declined and I'm always conscious that I'm just a bad month away from joining them.

When I worked in the junkyard I wasn't poor, but I took that job because I knew it would always be work and I was willing to work hard to keep my family above water. I'd do it again in a heartbeat despite the physical toll it took on me.

What your post stated was a poorly thought-out rant based on emotions, not reality. Sorry to bust you like that but the "working poor" are very real and one bad choice or unplanned pregnancy/etc. can really make someone's ability to make their own "luck" infinitely harder.

He should have been putting away, as permanent investment principle, at least 10% of his income over his entire working life. You make your life-style match only 90% of your income in order to do that. That's a starter. Not saying someone's stupid for not doing that. Could be that no one ever impressed upon them the idea of disciplined savings and conservative investment from an early age.

I agree more with this above statement. I'm not impoverished by any means, but I don't have allot extra and I worry about retirement even though its sometime down the road. I've been on my own since I've been 17, put myself through college, have A+ credit, but if I were to loose my job or had a medical emergency things could turn around real quick.

To many people in this day and age are lazy and think they deserve everything handed to them. Same goes with minorities (not all of them), they have more opportunities than the vast majority of people, but still dwell on what happened to their great great grandparents. GET OVER IT and do something with your life.

It took 2 years to go through the process of getting on disability. My moms was the only income and with the medical bills the savings quickly went away. The majority of all foreclosures in this country are from disability. The costs of meeting your deductable and paying 20% of a medical bill will eat up savings and investments rather quickly. The 2 years back pay from Social Security didn't make up the difference.

This is just sort of an aside but has anyone besides me noticed that when good folks fall on hard times, as sometimes happens, they are too proud, stubborn, hard headed or what ever to ask for help. Kills their soul to admit they have to have some help. They are the ones that sneak in the back door of the food bank and leave with their coat over their face holding just what they have to have to get by.

OTOH those who are cronic govt. cheese eaters are first in line talking on their cell phones and pushing a wheelbarow.

BCR

There's a big difference between "stupid" and possessing a skill that's not needed here(because the job was exported or left on a battlefield).

KC, I think you'd make a great welcoming committee for our vets that are going to come home in the next year or two just to find few jobs and possible assorted health problems. I've got no issue with draining the bathwater, but take the baby out first.

There are lazy people everywhere,not just in one particular geographic area. It is, however, easier to live without good shelter or fuel in some areas with warmer weather.

Being poor is frerquently not a matter of money. I know quite a few people who would quickly become poor again if you threw huge amounts of money at them. You could give them a check for a million dollars today and come back in two years to find them broke with nothing to show for the million they spent.

People from all walks of life fall on hard times. Some will pick themselves up, especially if they get a helping hand from someone else. Some will be arrogantly aggressively poor and adopt being a deserving victim as a lifestyle. Some wil be grateful for the help and some will resent the help and criticize the people who tried to help them because they did not give them enough.

It is very difficult and inaccurate to try to paint all causes of poverty with the same brush. That is the main reason it is impossible to eliminate poverty by simple measures such as throwing other peoples's money at it.

Doesn't sound like you'd do very well with a bad luck streak...

You need to take innate intelligence into account. There are lots of folks who work hard, and have great character but are poor because they are performing at the limits of their intelligence. A guy with an IQ of 90 can work hiss azz off to the limit of his ability and still not get anywhere. What about him?

Got hurt on the job in 2001. Doctors, a whole bunch of Doctors all said NO Work. WC insurance company said "We don't want to pay" and so they didn't. Fought the whole mess, all the time in chronic back and leg pain with spasms that would put me on my face on the ground, for five and a half years. Four and a half with no income. Thank God we had no debt going it to the mess and we came out with no debt but was hard.

So, am I a lazy piece of dodo because I got hurt and was prohibited from working?

BTW, I average around 60 hours a week now and still live in pain 24/7. Am I still lazy?

It's not intelligence. You raise a kid with an 80 IQ to understand self-discipline (save at least 10% of what comes in as conservative investment capital, and don't spend more than you have after the bills are paid), and he will do just fine if he has a good work ethic. People aren't taught to save anymore.

How many of these people do you know Hawk? I�ve got a bunch in the low level positions who are great people but how much are they supposed to be able to save when it takes everything they are capable of making to eat and pay the rent?

You can�t judge these people according to your own experience because they simply can�t think like that.

Sometimes it's just having the balls to take a chance.

I believe if you pay into the system, no matter how small, you should reap the benefits, but if you are one of the welfare folks that are pumping out kids, "YA GET NOTHIN" Les

there is a huge difference between people who are dealing with what might be called "situational" poverty....caused by external events, and those who are mired in generational, cultural poverty.


very few people begrudge a helping hand to the first group, but most Americans are heartily sick of the second.


and it isn't racial, its cultural. Blacks who adopt middle class values move out of poverty, whites who adopt the "values" of the underclass sink into poverty.

Yep, and some of them like to live that way.

Lots of good points made in this thread, hopefully we have been blessed with the wisdom and compassion to recognize the better points and ignore the others. Poverty is only one step away for anyone. Financial security normally comes after taking many steps down a long difficult road. Often we are assisted by others on that journey. Inturn we are indebted to assist others who are attempting to achieve financial security.

Sometimes I wonder who the "stupid" people really are. 'Us' that spend our lives working or 'Them' that don't.

Unfortunately, my parents only offered the 'Morality' choice so off to work I go...

If you're going to save, you better find something besides cash to store your assets away in,...and the alternatives are getting fewer by the day.

A lot of good comments here. I'll keep mine short. I don't have a problem helping those who can't, but I DAMN sure have a problem helping those who WON'T!!!!

Okay using most of the threads "ruler" for success... Madoff is rich because he was a nice guy. Good people are rich and lazy folk poor. I have the opinion that when you find what you are supposed to do do it! I would rather be a little light in a dark hall way that may help someone than a chandolier in a whore house.

Those who hate together skate together.

My buddy Clyde, as a B-24 pilot in England, married an English lady. When she came to America, she championed the poor � la the finest libiot bias.

But her attitude did a dramatic one-eighty when she worked in a big-city hospital � not in the South, by the way.

prostrate8:

Yes, I would make a good welcoming committee for vets returning from the middle east. I would tell them my own story and encourage them to follow a similar path. I would encourage them to work hard and steady and work smart. I would encourage them live within their income and to save for the future. I would encourage them to use the G.I. Bill to get an education or learn a valuable skill.

I came from humble beginnings but I pulled myself up by my own bootstraps and made a comfortable life for myself and my family. My family was not poor because we all worked hard and steady. We never lacked for the necessities, but we couldn't afford any luxuries, such as jeans without patches in the knees or being able to afford the cost of a movie. We couldn't afford to buy a burger at McDonalds, but we never went hungry. My father had a bad back and had to sleep in a hospital bed but that didn't stop him from working and he didn't claim disability.

I was not a great student in high school, but I stayed in school and graduated when lots of my friends were dropping out. The only job I could get was on the tire lot at Sears and it paid $2.50/hour. I developed plan to improve my situation and that plan included going to college on the G.I. Bill. I joined the US Marine Corps and fought in Viet Nam.

I came back from Viet Nam in 1971, welcomed at the airport by a bunch of screaming hippies calling me a baby killer. The only skills that I had learned from the military was how to kill people who were trying to kill me, so the best job I could get paid $1.80/hour. Remember that I was earning $2.50/hour before I joined up. I could have easily sunk into dispair and depression but I was determined to give my life plan my best shot.

I got married and we had a daughter shortly after getting out of the service. Those were the best and worst decisions that I have made. The best because my wife and children have made my life wonderful. The worst because they were a financial burden that made the next few years very hard financially. Yes, the government helped me through college with the G.I. Bill. I earned it in the jungles of Viet Nam.

I worked full time and went to college full time simultaneously. I worked construction as a common laborer and sustained my share of injuries, missing body parts and parts that don't work and chronic pain. But I didn't whine about it and even though I could have claimed disability, I maintained my self respect and continued to work.

It takes at least eight years of combined education and OJT just to become eligible to take the test to become a licensed architect. I paid my dues and in 1981, I sucessfully passed the test and got my license.

Since then, my wife and I have both worked, lived within our income and saved. In those early years, we were like most young couples. Our combined incomes didn't amount to much, but every month we managed to save something. Some times it was just $25, but we always put something away. We bought a house and it took twenty-five years to pay off the mortgage. But now we are debt free and we have an adequate income for the rest of our lives. We are not wealthy but we can afford the luxuries of going to the movies and buying a burger at McDonalds.

There are lots of people who think that the world owes them a living, that they deserve it without earning it. I don't agree with that. We get what we earn, we sleep in the beds that we make for ourselves. Lots of people earn their poverty through bad decisions ann/or lack of effort.

Some just don't have the innate ability to change things even if they do get some good breaks. And that's the way things are. That's reality. Equal opportunity does not guarantee equal outcome.

People in the U.S. all have at least the same opportunities that I had and many have taken advantage of those opportunities, but many others have not and they whine about how things ought to be. Things are the way that we make them. I'm not sympathetic with those who make their lives miserable. We must ensure that everyone continues to have the opportunity to change their own lives. But we should not try to change their lives for them. They have to do it themselves. We can't do it for them and expect to be successful.

Very well said sir.

Considering that 500,000 people a month have lost their jobs for the past 4 months in a row, there will soon be a lot of people to point the finger at and feel superior to.

I don't plan on doing so,...because I fully expect to be one of them before this whole economic mess plays out.

I heard this AM that the gal (the SINGLE gal) that had the 8 babies, plus her already prior 6 kids (those being below the age of 7 years of age, +/-) is asking for 2 mil for any and all interviews. She had fertility treatments to have these additional 8 children..........go figure, I can't, except that it will allow her future governmental, monetary assistance.

She has no job, no way now to ever have a job and we will end up payin' the price as taxpayers, not only for all of her current hospital bills, but likely now and for forever for her and hers. This does not take into account many other health care and employment issues likely to be brought on by her either uncaring or inability to pass on any type of "work ethic" ideology to her 14 children.

Sure, seems like rather an extreme example, but is it really? Multiply this gal X's tens of thousands of others just like her with only 2 or 3 kids......... crazy expensive plus being the worst of all examples to those children that will soon be standin' in line with their hands out as well.......why wouldn't they?

We won't legislate anything to do with the above example (the birth part)....not that we can't, we just won't. So with one comes the other. It is true that there will be a certain % of those born into the aforementioned situations that will thrive and become hard working stiffs just like many of the rest of us, but sadly, they will be far and few between. Some here have stated that they fit this earlier profile and have floated to the top in spite of the odds.......great, this is more than hopeful and encouraging, but by far, in the minority. I somewhat fit this profile as well, booted out of the house at 16, finished HS on my own, joined the USMC, attended college on the GI Bill, graduated and started my LEO career directly thereafter. Nothing immortal, superhuman nor different than many here, but definitely different than some others.

We all make choices, be they derived from our individual upbringings or from some gene some of us have that others lack.......who knows? Perhaps a combination of lack of both. But I would suggest, barring issues directly related to the inability of make the most simplistic of life's decisions of which survival is right there at the top, not planning ahead for times such as these and actually then setting aside for such, is that individuals failings, one for which many of the rest of us must reach deeper into our own pockets for.

Do I hate these people.....no. Do I feel sorry for them.........again, no. Do I wish they'd made better decisions when perhaps they could have when times were better.........yep. Are there more of them then there are me.......not sure, but seems there's a lot more people in a big hurt than others are.

Given similar backgrounds and all other things being essentially equal up to the age of 16 or so, what outside factors or forces then influences us enough individually to become more responsible to ourselves and our own as opposed to that "other" group?

Nope.....I surely don't like my good, hard earned $ being spent after bad, but that isn't going to change until we reduce the amount of "bad" enough to motivate the "others" to seek training that already exists in order to enhance their lives to a point hopefully well above what our governmental handouts provide.....IMHO.

I'm not talkin' about the many thousands of people who have just lost their jobs due to the economy who have worked for 20 years at the same place. I'm speaking of those that choose not to work for their own reasons. For if it weren't for these people in particular, our financial woes would likely be far less, if at all.

YMMV...............

You're a real hard ass..so I guess all those people back in the thirties who grew up poor, who went on to win WWII and become "the greatest generation" were just lazy and dumb?

School isn't for everybody, many in the past made their way in the trades, today working in the trades, if you are lucky keeps you one step up from poor.

People say we don't need unions anymore? You are why we need unions still. If you owned a buisness I would feel sorry for your employees.

CWG:

I got just the kind of discussion that I was after. I take a position on an issue. Someone else takes another position and we have a rousing debate. Maybe I'm right. Maybe I'm right only for me. That's how we make decisions in a democratic replublic.

I'm just glad you ain't the one making decisions.

Barkoff:

Am I a "hard ass"? Maybe. Maybe I can just look reality in the eye and see it for what it is.

Many of those people who grew up poor during the Great Depression (including my parents) went on to make something of themselves through hard work and determination. Many remained mired in self denial and continue to claim that they are "deserving victims".

I have seen both bad and good from the unions. They have a function to perform as watch dogs over potentially exploitive employers and many union training programs offer opportunities to gain valuable skills that offer people another way to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. But unions also need oversight and control from the government. Unions can be just as exploitive as employers and they can place overwhelming burdens on employers that eventually result in the ruination of those companies. Many of the unions use seniority as the only way for assigning jobs and this minimizes personal creativity and motivation. If you want to squash Yankee Ingenuity, all you have to do is reward those who don't demonstrate motivation or creativity.

Thank you for your service. I hope the G.I. Bill continues to give the very deserving vets an opportunity to get a leg up on the competition in the competitive work force. I too worked full time during school days. I was extremely lucky to have tuition payed for, but the rest was up to me. I can't say I agree with your very narrow viewpoint, but as you say that's part of living with our responsibilities and freedoms.

Barkoff:

In a democratic republic, we all participate in decision making and hopefully we can reach concensus that results in the most benefit for the most people and minimizes negative outcomes.

Yeah, like minty classic Colt and S&W revolvers, and pre-64 Winchester rifles.

Well I didn't read all of this but enough to know that KC needs help.

There is a difference between poor and broke. Many of us will be broke in our life time but not poor. Poverty is a state of mind. Most poor people think poor so they are poor no matter how much money you give them. I see that all the time with the welfare queens. No matter if they found a good man who had money these welfare queens would be still be poor because they think poor.

The welfare system creates poor thinking as well as lazy and stupid. Let evolution work end welfare will end as we know it. The strong will survive and the weak will parish and who needed the weak any way,

prostrate8:

Thank you for your kind sentiment. It was an honor to serve. I'm glad that our country finally seems to have realized that our young men and women who today are carrying the banner of freedom deserve our respect and gratitude. We must all remember that freedom is not free. I also hope that the G.I. Bill remains a continuing program that offers those who have served an opportunity for success and I'm willing to pay my fare share of taxes towards that effort.

I'm not entirely sure that I totally agree with the narrow view point for which I have been a proponent in this discussion, but it has generated a lively debate. Many other participants in this discussion have raised the valid point that there are many genuine exceptions. But the difficulty is in determining who will genuinely and lastingly benefit from help. I like the old motto of some aid organizations that state "We offer a hand up, not a hand out".

I'm surprised so many people jumped KC's ass. I mostly agree. I don't want to pay for these welfare programs. Injured, hurt, can't work is one thing. Outta work, no life 6 kids and a check in the mail; I don't want to pay for those folks either. In my college sociology class we read a book about a 5th generation welfare mom, that's the pos I don't want to pay for, and I think that's what KC's alluding to.

Wook

magnumb:

You make some valid points. There are now millions, and probably soon to be many more millions of hard working, reliable, skilled workers out of work through no fault of their own. So a real important question is, how do we turn things around and ensure that these people have the opportunity to succeed as a result of their hard work and determination? It seems that congress is very actively engaged in the debate that hopefully will answer that question. I just hope that the economic stimulus program which should result from that debate, offers opportunity to those who will take advantage of it and avoids rewarding those who won't.

Semper Fi.

I understand what you're saying. I also disagree in several areas. First, regardless of how bad a lot of people are, we just spent a huge amount of money in "bailouts" much of which went to executives who didn't need the money by any measurement. I would like to see a comparison of how much we spend on welfare compared to that. Especially I would like to see how much we spend on corporate welfare figured in. I also think that regardless of their best efforts, some people will still remain poor. This is despite ingrained ethics, saving habits, race, skills, education or intelligence.

I have long thought that the guys who sit down at the Dairy Queen drinking coffee every day and bemoaning the negros on welfare are just pawns in a game that the rich (insert government because they're one in the same) play to keep us all stupid and in line while they rake in the vast majority of the world's wealth and most of us either work or lay around griping about those poorer than us.

And as others have said, money is not everything. There are riches in this world that the wealthy never glimpse and never will.

KC, Still waiting for you to answer my questions.

Scott F:

No, you are not lazy. As you stated, you work 60 hours/week. That's not lazy. You have overcome adversity and are to be applauded for your effort.

You said that you were "prohibited from working". The last time I looked this was a free country. Was someone going to put you in jail if you worked. I'm not aware that doctors have law enforcement responsibility. Apparently you have free choice and now choose to work in spite of the "prohibition".

However, I wonder how many others do not have your determination and just lay around griping about their miserable situation and expect the rest of us to support them?

I know what you mean,I hate them lazy good for nuthins. Shoot,I get up everyday at 10:00 and head on down the Costco for some free samples.Then I stand out on the freeway offramp and hold up my cardboard sign.Heck, thats alot of work running around and bending over to pick up change that hits the ground. Then I have to hang out by by mailbox and wait for my foodstamps and welfare check. I'm so tuckered out, thatI usualy have to take a nap before I head back to the Costco for dinner handouts.Ummm free samples is good eaten.

I was prohibited from work as the Doctors would not sign a release to go to work and when they finally did, after five and a half years the restrictions were so strict no one in their right mind would hire me.

I had to change states and forge a note to get into trucking school. Not proud of having to lie but it is what it took to go to work.

I don't disagree with the basic premise of what you are saying (as I interpret it anyway). The opportunity exists for all of us when we are young to do just about anything. Some choose to show up for school, do well through effort and keeping priorities in line, and thus maintain their options. They know where they want to go, plan for it and execute the plan. Some choose goals based on money, others based on a particular desire or passion. Others choose not to put the effort in to achieve a particular place in life. Very few truly don't have the opportunity. It bothers me when our government suggests we need give certain groups "opportunity" when in reality they have merely chosen to not take advantage of existing opportunity.
Not having money does not mean someone is "poor" in life though. I know people with very little money but they have very "rich" lives and vice versa.

As I suggested earlier, it will be up to each individual, so suddenly and unexpectedly inconvenienced, to either take part in a retraining programs, hit the sidewalk for whatever can tide them over....... or simply do nothing at all. This would again all be determined by what is "in" us to do.

Again.....my circumstances are the same as others in some cases and different in many others. Retired at 53, my pension is reasonable, but not enough to have put all my eggs in that one basket. Made little $ for 2/3 of my 30 years, but my wife worked full time as well. We invested what we could afford in between the usual house payments, Dr. bills, our kids major involvement with sports and the necessities of the raising of those 2 children through their growing years. Nothing remarkable, in that regard, I suppose.

What we DID do however, without any assistance from either family nor government intervention, was to make investments that weren't too out of line with what we thought we could afford, but that coincided with the occasional yearly raises we had come to somewhat count on. 'Course, this meant doing somewhat without, but not enough not to enjoy a full family life, plus some extra perks along the way (a boat, traveling, a few firearms, etc.). We both started out at $550 per month, before taxes. Not a lot, but neither was food nor gas then. One thing led to another and as fortune and good luck would have it, the stock market went nuts for a few years there and all was GTG......for those that chose that route.

I expect that we all have some magic figure in our heads of what we need to acquire to be able to both retire on and to live out the rest of our lives without much need to look over our shoulders. Due to some very fortunate investments and their subsequent reinvestments, we/I reached that age at 42. However, my kids were about to start college, medical insurance was solely through my employment (my wife then had a commission only job), so I decided to continue working until I reached my 30 years (in 2004) so that I received a pension, albeit, nothing outstanding, to help buffer any UNEXPECTED economic downturns. Guess what.......here we are today. Not something I really wanted to do, but I felt it prudent to do so.

My wife continues to work, albeit, a bit less than full time, the kids are grown and out on their own, my bank accounts/investments have put us back to where we were approximately 10 years ago, but in the interim, I've purchased 4 other homes that I rent out and even though I don't make anything off of them each month, I'm building some equity.....not alot these days, but a bird in the hand.......

So.......not much income initially for either of us. No real frills nor did we complain about the lack thereof. Took what we could afford and made the best decisions that we could, without benefit of experienced and expensive professionals. Lucky.......you bet, but as in huntin' and fishin', luck counts. If one lives hand to mouth without regard for what may happen in the future, it's hard to argue that he/she/they don't deserve exactly what they get.......sans any catastrophic event, which certainly does and can occur.

My son is 28 now and has owned his own home since age 20. He also owns his own business and employs 5 other guys and he is, by all accounts, both happy and financially secure, not necessarily do these always blend nicely, but in his case, it would seem as if it does. My daughter, on the other hand, hasn't a pot to pee in. She is also quite happy, yet is happy whether or not she's broke or has a few $ in her pocket. She works, but doesn't really care if she employed or not. We've never "spoiled" either my son or daughter, but have tried to be as generous as possible without goin' over "that" line (which is undoubtedly different for each parent). She's a loving daughter, respectful to all, my best fishin' partner as is my son in regards to my huntin' partner. I love them both dearly and we don't play favorites. I do describe them as my son being able to turn $10 into a $100 and my daughter takin' that same $10 and turnin' it into a CD (and unfortunately, I don't mean a certificate of deposit)....... It is what it is, for whatever reasons, none that I can readily explain.

These are our biological children (we've now been married almost 33 years), they've been raised essentially the same and have both obviously witnessed our work ethic.

People are different, with different ideas on what's important and what's not....at least to them as individuals. But what we have allowed as a nation, is not only the opportunity to succeed as individuals, but more obviously and unfortunately, the opportunity to fail as individuals by not trying at all or making a concerted effort to be productive and then allowing this group to be rescued from themselves at the cost of all others who have taken the exact opposite path or approach.

I don't have the answers, but I do know that throwin' $ at those that can't appreciate it for what it's worth............not necessarily a great template for their/our future.......IMHO.

If it were necessary for me to go back to work tomorrow, I would gladly do so. Who knows, it may just come to that as the bottom has yet to be reached as far as our economy goes. Due to 3 back surgeries since my retirement, no doubt my prior job would be out of the question. But I could assure you, I would be employed sooner than later and I wouldn't be so set on receiving my last salary amount that I wouldn't take a job paying less. I see this as also a huge problem in our society today..........if I can't work and make this much OR if I can't make what I made at my last job, I'm not working. Somehow, we've done this to ourselves and it didn't start yesterday. To continue on just "handin' it out", is obviously not the answer. Yet, we continue to do so and somehow find more $ all the time to supplement this craziness.

I don't believe that any able bodied person can feel better at the end of the day having been paid for doing absolutely nothing, but then again, perhaps my "vision" is blurred.

YMMV.

I don't have a problem with that, rather your statement that anyone who ends up poor, is dumb and lazy. If you want to sugar coat it now, that's fine, maybe you should have sugar coated your original statement.

You now go on and explain about those who were poor and then picked themselves up, well you original statement made no such concession.





Your original statement comes straight from the Rush Limbaugh book of "I made it and you didn't,, so I have no time" If you want to soften it and and explain it with a bit more thought, that's swell.

By the way, I have been employed at my job for 22 years, I am good at what I do. This crash has me in a bad way, so I have to pull money out of my 401K to survive. Will I find steadier employment before my savings and 401K give out, I don't know, it is bleak out there. As I look for employement the unemployment ranks swell.

If I don't find work in time that will pay enough to pay the mortgage? Well I guess that will put me too in the category of the dumb and lazy.

You have no compassion, OK.
You don't want government to extend unemployment, OK.
You want to believe that those who are in a bad situation put themselves there and deserve no helping hand, OK

But if you are going to put your hard line views out there, don't then try to play them down when they draw a negative response from those who don't totally buy into "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" Rush Limbaugh as "all knowing".


I am no fan of those who sit on their ass and collect with no effort, but where we differ is that I don't assume all who end up poor, fit that description.

I do not like my tax dollars supporting people who refuse to work and would not my seeing something like the wpa for infastructure for anyone drawing a check.

But some of the hardest working people I know barely make above minumum wage. I don't know what keeps them from better paying jobs but I feel it is more of a cultural and lack of education thing.

Not all gray matter is created the same, regardless of the feel good Oprah chants.

I know plenty of employed folks that strike me as stupid and lazy. In fact, quite a few have made amazing amounts of money considering how little they seem to bring to the table.

Life ain't fare, and there are plenty of decent people that seem to just get surved a sheet sandwhich day in and day out. There are others that strike me as useless at best or evil at worst who seem to have no end of champaigne and caviar.

Some how inspite of having been very fortunate in the breaks life has thrown me I see myself as no better than the man at the top or the bottom.

What I see is a broken system, one that has taken away the need to work for many, and when folks fall into that well, it's little wonder they can't climb out. Taking away the need for one to work breaks the spirit of a man.

That was my point earlier about intelligence. Plenty of people with double digit IQ�s who are hard working upstanding folks. Others like to pontificate on the intertubes.

Most (not all) poor people who are poor for an extended period of time get their not because they are lazy (there are some) or because they are dumb (there are some) they get there because they repeatidly make bad decisions. I'm sure you've seen them.

Well, I know a lot of hard-working people that don't make bank....and are struggling to make ends meet. And I know a lot of lazy people that like to drive around a market parking lot for an hour looking for the closest parking spot to the door.....and they drive nice cars and have boats they never use.

Poorest people I have met, in my travels, have been the happiest. Richest people....well....sorta miserable and lazy....sorta fat and out of touch with their bodies....sorta the type that don't have any hobbies outside of chasing a simple $mooch....whilst life is passing them by, lightening speed.

Me? I'd rather pick chit with the chickens for pennies and war wounds on my hands than trade in my sense of self for a million $moochies selling horse chit to the masses or making sure they are comfortable. Guess that is why I'll always be poor and working with animals....but it's my gig and I am good at it.

Priorities...and choices. I suspect balance is key. Be damned, though.....balance has never really been my strong suit<grin>...

Prolly gonna be some bad times that lay ahead. Some are gonna sink....some are donna dance....and some may sink before they sing. Me? I'll do what I've always done. I'll do what I need to do to survive.

Good job, HoundGirl. Enjoyed reading that.

It's a dandy discussion topic you've brought up here KC...I'd be proud to discuss it at length with ya again over a real campfire...maybe in Raton again soon...The first exception I can think of in your topic would be Job but there were extenuating circumstances there for sure...

Wasn't it said not to judge a man 'til you walk a mile in his shoes???


Means a lot!!!

Steve, you nailed it. So true........

STATEMENT MADE BY THE LATE DR. ADRIAN ROGERS OF BELLEVUE BAPTIST CHURCH, MEMPHIS , TENNESSEE :

YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE THE POOR INTO FREEDOM BY LEGISLATING THE WEALTHY OUT OF FREEDOM. WHAT ONE PERSON RECEIVES WITHOUT WORKING FOR, ANOTHER PERSON MUST WORK FOR WITHOUT RECEIVING.

THE GOVERNMENT CANNOT GIVE TO ANYBODY ANYTHING THAT THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT FIRST TAKE FROM SOMEBODY ELSE. WHEN HALF OF THE PEOPLE GET THE IDEA THAT THEY DO NOT HAVE TO WORK BECAUSE THE OTHER HALF IS GOING TO TAKE CARE OF THEM, AND WHEN THE OTHER HALF GETS THE IDEA THAT IT DOES NO GOOD TO WORK BECAUSE SOMEBODY ELSE IS GOING TO GET WHAT THEY WORK FOR, THAT MY DEAR FRIEND, IS ABOUT THE END OF ANY NATION.

YOU CANNOT MULTIPLY WEALTH BY DIVIDING IT.

A brilliant statement if there ever was one.

Yep.

I have known many very successful people, and in almost every case their success has come from some combination of smarts, hard work, risk taking and delayed gratification. However, it is also true that most of them have been fortunate to catch a break along the way, even if it was just growing up in an intact middle class family or finding a mentor. Although it can be done, it is damned hard to pull yourself up from the bottom of the heap.

Means you're a mile away and you have his shoes.

I am also frustrated with the welfare system, let me explain

either way the poor are going to cost taxpayers money,the problem as I see it is that we are not getting a good return on our investment in the welfare programs.
the money can be spent two different ways,
1)we can spend money to feed,clothe,shelter,and educate those that are less fortunate and turn them into productive citizens.
2)we can spend money to pursue,arrest,prosecute,and incarcerate the same people and still have a bunch of useless thugs after spending all that money.
#2 is the current program we are running,but that is because of corruption,fraud,and greed.
if the money we spend on welfare were spent properly and the system actually helped people with a Hand UP not a Hand OUT we would be in a better place.
Unfortunately the Democrats think welfare should be a projects to the penthouse program and anybody that disagrees with them is a racist.
in a country as great as our's no child should live in the street or go to bed hungry and we don't need to spend more money to prevent that we need a reform of the current system with oversite to stop fraud and corruption and get a better return on our investment.

As I see it, giving anybody a check for doing nothing perpetuates the practice of doing nothing for a check. I wouldn't have a problem with entitlement programs if the individuals receiving it were required to work HARD to get it. No more morbidly obese welfare recipients, no more unemployment checks, you want my money, you get to work, and work hard, for it. Giving folks who have fallen on hard times a hand is a good thing, as long as they EARN it. As I see it there are plenty of areas of the work force that could be filled with gov't paid workers looking to better themselves. Some would hate it and work to better themselves, others would hate/accept it but not have the ambition/ability to move out of it - win-win situation for both the taxpayer and the recipient. My guess is that it would also do a great deal of good for the crime rate in many areas as well. Tough to get too excited about breaking the law after 12 hours of picking weeds in a beet field.

ranger1, you do realize that the unemployment money is yours, it comes out of your check every pay period. tis why, when you go on unemployment for extended periods, it runs out. Imagine the companies that get to keep your money if you switch jobs. It's yours, you worked for it and use it if you have too, you would be a fool not to.

Les, that's not correct. Unemployment is an insurance fund that employers pay into with a tax. The source I checked said that there are just three states that also require some minimal employee contribution.

Paul

Colorado is one of them. It shows up on my pay voucher, I'll have to look and tell you what the title is. Here in Colorado, you don't get what the feds set as unemployment, you get what you have paid in. Also what the unemployment told me when I was discharged a few years ago. You don't believe that the company is paying that themselves do you? Les

Interesting. As it turns out, Colorado is the only state where I've drawn unemployment, and it was too long ago to remember the details. Still, I doubt you can say that the money belongs to the employee, or the employer for that matter. It probably stays with the fund, as that's the whole basis behind insurance - it's a pool. There are some use-it-or-lose-it benefits out there, but I don't think unemployment is one of them.

Paul