Fair question.......

Yes. They would have added extra safeguards against the consolidation of power in the central government.

What do you think they would have done Hawk in light of today's security concerns?

I doubt it. The only way it could come about today is for the current government to be overthrown. We would be starting from scratch as we did in the 18th century. It may have a little more pointed and direct language, so as not to be open to weird interpretations. just my 2 cents

Would they have considered Free Speech for non citizen combatants?

Would they have considered enemy terrorists as folks protected under their Constitution?

" Would The Founding Fathers Have Written It Different Today?"

Yes!

It would be so exceedingly wordy no one would be able to wade through it in 10 lifetimes

Fair answer?

You are precisely correct.

PS Bob, old friend, although I could read the title of your thread (and thus respond to it), that is the extent of it. I cannot read your posts, as you are on my ignore list. It's a shame, really, because it might have been interesting, but as I am a man guided by principle, you will remain on ignore, at least for the foreseeable future.

Archer...the point I'm trying to make is would the re-wording be more acclimated to coincide with the thoughts of the neocons or the "Band Of 8?"

I mean...sincerely think about this! My position is that the FF's would rather have a luncheon with me and understand my thoughts than the folks who think this country is doing it all wrong!

LMAO!!!!!!!

PS Bob, old friend, although I could read the title of your thread (and thus respond to it), that is the extent of it. I cannot read your posts, as you are on my ignore list.
________________________

Gee...hope I can fall asleep tonight!

You can bet the FF's would have the Crazy 8 on ignore.....

There is nothing wrong with keeping a good attitude and being positive. At some point one must be realistic though.

The Founding Fathers would be jailed and called terrorists today. That or they would go down in a ball of flame with Janet Reno commanding army tanks with FBI agents in them.

One thing they wouldn't do is give up their guns when the Oklahoma and Indiana National Guard came banging at the door under orders from a couple of corrupt local officials.

Who do you consider the "crazy eight"? I've heard this term bandied about along with the "ladies guild" for a long time. Exactly which Campfire folks are members according to y'all who use the terms?

I understand, Bob. Just trying to be funny (lame attempt though it were.)


Having read through much of what the FF's wrote leading up to and after the Declaration and Constitution (including BOR) I'd say they'd be more careful to say what they wanted said in more certain terms. Less able to be misconstrued or "restructured" to fit future agendas, that is. I think they'd be quite upset with the way things have turned out were they here now to witness for themselves. And I believe they'd break down and cry knowing it all neeeds done again so soon after the fact.

It's clear they wanted national government caged and tethered in DC. It's clear the people were to be in charge and not minute grouups of power hungry elites. It's clear individual liberty was to be the utmost in the thinking of all persons public and private. And it's clear we haven't done our job being ever watchful to safeguard the legacy they left for us and our posterity.

Seems to me it's all circling the drain mighty quickly now a days and we'll probalby have to do as they suggested sooner or later and cast of said government to start afresh. It's obvious we can't allow the dingleBarrys and Al Galores of the world to continue in power. Nor the RINOs or neo-cons (I dislike using that word). Everyone in politics these days seems bent on destruction in one directioin or another. It saddens me.

Also known as RPeeer's....those are the only aliases I know. Of course, I started both of 'em.

Congratulations, Stan. You've outdone yourself. Creativity and imaginativeness unparallelled.

Band of Bozos might work......

They would be given all constitutional rights but the legal process would be short and sweet and they would be able to say pretty much what they want until hung from a tree. I think that you are assuming that all things would be the same. For it to come about today this country would be torn apart and look nothing like it is now. If the prisoners from gitmo were taken back to the time of the founding fathers their demise would probably come rather quickly.

I doubt it ever crossed their minds, and if it had been suggested, would have been dismissed as absurdly ludicrous on it's face.

The circumstance the FF's did not forsee, was the progressive decadence and far reaching corruption our society has decended to, in the ensuing years since their noble sacrifices. Today we call this liberalism.

No document can prevent the implementation of tyranny by a government.

History has shown that there's only one way for a people to shake off their bonds.

It comes around every so often.

Exactly right?

Yep, and unlike the 18th Century, there is no where left to hide. That's what's gonna make it complicated and BAD.

Yep.

Man up and name names. Don't be afraid.

I response to your question Bob, I don't think so. But they were the big dogs at the time and lets face it, the problem was a long way away. The population of this country was relatively small, and they all shared a common "cause". While we at the fire seem to be fairly in touch with our roots, I'd guess that greed is the most common "cause" shared by Americans of date.

My family moved west after the war, to get away from the poverty created by the war itself and reconstruction. You are right. There is no place left to go. I have to laugh at people who talk about moving to Australia. He// they lost their guns way before us.

I have to think Crossfire is right about HR 45, for instance, being unenforceable. Unless they want to provoke a war. Your thoughts on it Powell?

Most people don't even know what's in the constitution. They're too concerned with getting to stay here after they entered illegally, getting their next batch of crack or meth or keeping their job in the "service economy". Oh well, I'll just go buy some more Chinese chit at Wal Mart and all will be fine.

I agree, and while politicians are by nature snakes, I don't think they're stupid. They found out in the Clinton years that you can mess with "ugly" guns a little, but when you threaten PaPa's ability to defend himself you'll be out of a job.

I was talking to a buddy of mine last night and all he could do was moan and groan about the economy and how as soon as the Chinamen pull their money, all is lost. I see a helluva lot of wealth that wasn't here when I was a kid. The money the politicians just gave away didn't disappear. It's still here. The trick is to either force the rich boys to reinvest in America or just take it the he// back. It wasn't the politicians to give away in the first place. I don't give a damm how many illegal aliens, non-taxpayers and goobermint cheese eaters voted ten times apiece to elect the sorry basstards.

My buddy was talking about how everybody should be hoarding their cash right now...as if most people don't have bills that take the whole paycheck every month. In the next breath he's telling me how he's buying an '06 F250 Crewcab 4x4 to replace the Chevy Heavy-Duty 3/4 ton 4x4 extended cab that he's giving his just-turned fourteen-year-old son. I'm sorry for all the people who've been pink-slipped, but I went to Sam's the other day and couldn't hardly get down the aisles for people buying like he//. I couldn't hardly get up to all the free sample carts they had out...

As guiding documents go, the original was just about perfect. There is no way that our Constitution could be duplicated today. I say we are damn lucky that they were able to do it at the time, and even then it was problematical as to whether it would be approved and implemented.

I hope you're right because if we learned anything, it's that even these "permanent" assault rifle bills can be overturned once we get our people back in power. The key is to keep the pressure on them. If anything, Obama may have effed up by making so many people first-time gun owners and especially first time assault rifle owners, that wouldn't have been had he not been so anti-gun. Those people are not going to want to give up what they just went to so much trouble and expense to acquire.

wow band of 8?????


can't recall prezactly

but here's how my memory sees it

Real Hawkeye

Bristoe

rroae (sp?)

don't know if mike762 was present and accounted for at that time or not, but he'd qualify

am thinkin ironbender may have been included but he was never real vocal (smart move on his part I suppose)

pretty sure Barak was included

myself of course

and I don't know who the other would be

I may have included some that shouldn't be on the list, and omitted others that should have

it basically came down to a very small minority that believed in the message Ron Paul espoused though the crowd wanted to ridicule the messenger far more than the message

they're a sophisticated bunch that have made good a good living under both Clinton and Bush and the money that has flowed freely with deficit spending and the liquidity it provided.

they're flag waving GOP members and mostly good guys, but they've lived so long under big government and a watered down Constitution that they have difficulty comprehending the vision our FF's had for this country.

imo the FF's worst fears have been realized tis amazing to me their foresight and predictive abilities.

like I said mostly good guys, but I'll make an exception for Stan, he's a prick of the old school variety at a real campfire he'd have been spittin teeth and crying long ago.

hope they are preparing for what's coming.

still ain't sorry I bought gold isaac, buying more all the time

IOW's you ain't seen nada yet, folks trying to pick or predict a bottom and this gig is just getting going. Or Obama will save the day, take your pick.

took survey this last week of 420 acres I have, was encouraged to find deer, wild turkey and even an old slow possum all edible.

hope it's never needed but I love insurance you pay for once that you can recreate upon and if necessary survive.

the band of 8, RPeers, ladies guild, bunch of whackos, no matter what you call it they called what's coming, have fun.

Good post.

I rarely even respond to the people who want to toss around that tired old nonsense anymore.

The accuracy of Ron Paul's economic predictions are smack dab in the face of virtually everyone in the world right now.

The DOW is in the tank, 2,000,000 people have lost their jobs in the past 4 months, the big banks have failed, and all the government can come up with to do about it is further debase our currency by a virtual doubling of the money supply,..on top of a current 10 trillion dollar debt.

Our system is kaput,...it's not coming back.

No one can say what the eventual outcome of it all will be,...but it's not going to be pleasant.

+1 to you both.

I guess it must be the "Crazy 9" now because in light of the mess right now you are sounding smarter every day.

No question if being written today the FF's would better address immigration and slavery.....look around and think about where the majority of our problems begin.

No way would they shrink our military presence around the globe as would RP and his merry band of code pinkers.

By the way, breaking news.....Daschle pulling out of consideration for a cabinet post!!!!

It wouldn't exist if the principals of the founding fathers had been adhered to.

,...and it's not going to exist much longer, anyway.

This country is far too broke to maintain it's empire.

Right. So the FF's that spent time in France begging for aid would have allowed the French to become German in the 40's.....


So, you being the sage you are and more qualified to predict the future than the FF's, are now predicting the end of American leadership? So, which broke and weakened country on the planet replaces us?

I think, had they a view of what has transpired since written it would be a more direct iron clad document than the one we now have. I believe they really wanted to keep it simple and protected in original form.

china

Just follow the manufacturing. You'll see who the emerging world powers are and why.

Yeah, 'cause folks like cheap crap that can kill their kids.

military presence around the world can be debated as to the merits or disadvantages of where and when.

what you can afford to do and what you can't isn't open for debate or do they not have history books in Texas?

"but ma I've got to have cable and a new F150. I'll find another job one of these days!" (number of zeros is all that separates the two thought processes)

I was certainly one of those who backed Ron Paul. Unfortunately, he couldn't swim against the MSM who alternately ignored and made fun of him. His ideas were and are sound. There were a whole lot more Campfire denizens than eight who supported Dr. Paul. Once Dr. Paul was out, I supported McCain as the lesser of two evils. McCain would not have made a good President, although IMO he was better than either Mitt Romney or Rudy Guliani, two other also-rans who at least had a shot at the top spot. I wonder if Obama's election was preferable to McCain's as we now have a clear enemy to fight...that is if he stays the path he followed as a Senator.

We need a good, conservative candidate to present to the American people in four. Jeb Bush ain't him.

Yep. As I recall, we outnumbered those who opposed him on The Fire.Same here.Absolutely. No more Bushes. Someone who shares Ron Paul's politics, but with perhaps more charisma.

Here's my vote. A really good guy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Poe

I think if the founding fathers could see where our country is going today they would shake their heads and simply say "we told you so."

Hey! Welcome back to the fridge! Hope you had a good trip.


Don't know if I made the band or not and caring is about as pointless as the moronic way the name is bandied about. I certainly supported Ron Paul and had a quote of his in my sig line area during the campaign.

I sometimes got involved in the pizzing that went on, but soon saw the futility of leading the blind through the scree slopes.

Oh, welcome back.

Yes. Article II would have the militia phrase removed, private property ownership would be added to the Bill of Rights, the general welfare phrase would be removed, the "all other powers" phrase would be strengthened, federal justice activities would be strictly limited, and there would be no lifetime appointments.

I agree they'd write it different today, to clearly state what they intended over 200 years ago.

Back in the 1700's when they wrote it, 90% of the citizens shared the same morals, values, and beliefs.

I won't claim to fully know what democrats believed in centuries ago, but it's safe to say they were not the communistic MF'ers that they have become today.

Unfortunately, BOTH parties became co opted by the "progressive" movement just after the turn of the 19th century. Our side had Teddy Roosevelt and Hoover, theirs had Woodrow Wilson and FDR. Things haven't been the same since.

True.

Or those with sattelites

Soviet Union
United States
France
Japan
China
United Kingdom
India
Israel
Iran

Woo Hoo, I made the cut. lol


If believing in sound fiscal policy, strict adherence to the Constitution and the FF's belief that the US should be non interventionists, I'll proudly wear that tin foil hat.


Now what should we call those who believe that we should allow the Federal Reserve to go unckecked or the people who believe it's our duty to rebuild Muslim countries hostile to the US or that lessening our freedoms and rights in the name of protection is to our benefit?

Sorry friends...in court for a bit!


The question truly is....if our FF's were around today, with pen in hands, would that wonderful document be vastly different?

Be honest! It's a nice cerebral exercise!

Depends on whether they themselves would have been corrupted by 200 years of our political system like so many of our politicians today.

That aside, there are so many principles in that document that stand the test of time- unfortunately people don't :-(

Too true! Nowadays everyone looks to government to solve their problems when it IS the problem. Creeping socialism. It started in 1900 and has been growing like a slow metasticizing cancer ever since. I think the patient is almost dead.

I guess the question is, would the FF's be sitting around dabbing quills in ink while tugging at their wigs and just appear as in an old Star Trek episode? If so, let's hope there's a Dr nearby....cause they ain't gonna believe how small this planet has gotten in 230 years.

Franklin will certainly find the ladies interesting....


(by the way, can you imagine how much smaller this joint is gonna be in another 230 years?)

tks for the welcome Mike.

I drug (according to the locals) and ice storm down with me, and then it was 60* when we went to fly out.

oh well I'm not high enough pay grade to complain bout weather, good to see the folks, take stock of the farms and collect some rent money from the farm leases.

isaac twas an interesting question,

for my money they would have been perhaps a bit more implicit in some terms.

2nd comes to mind, believe the thought process in those days is what self respecting man wouldn't have arms to draw upon should they be needed.

don't believe the FF's ideas and attitudes would be much different, but the expectations of todays populace and what is an expected role of government by that population has changed drastically.

the Constitution as written would be a great document to govern a country, too bad there's not one doing so.

In light of the present situation in the US, I am wondering if your founding fathers might not want to tighten up & clarify the language regarding a presidential candidate to be "natural born"...

Just sayin'...

John

I actually thought about your question for the last hour and I really can't come up with an answer(remember, I'm cerebrally challenged).


I do firmly believe they would be disgusted at what our country has become. Central banks, Federal Income taxes, less state rights, more government,....they'd probably shoot themselves in the head after seeing how far we've regressed.

I just wonder how small the bikinis will be in 200 years.

We'd be just as shocked as the FF's today......no telling what transmetrocybergendersex will be hanging out in 200 years.

From what I've read about Ben Franklin, I think he would wholeheartedly approve.

If we had what it takes to let the natural law of "Survival of the Fittest" work we would not be discussing this problem because all the non-productive people would be dead.

Unfortunately, we don't have the guts to let non-productive people die in the streets.

The FFs had no problem in that regard.

Feed the homeless to the hungry.

George

Sorry...had to play lawyer again...without pay...SOAB!

It is my belief the FF's would agree more with me today than those who profess to think they know what the FF's intended!

The FF's would have levelled half the world with nukes had they had the capability!

And, would Allah actually be a talking point with the big boys?

I would be willing to bet that the FF wouldn't spend one dime to rebuild anything outside of the USA that they destroyed.

Fair enough. But would they destroy it?

I think that Jefferson proved that with the Barbary Pirates.

Agreed. So why the puzzies?

The FF's knew exactly what they were doing and who they real enemy of the people would be.....

He!! they had first hand experience.

Problem is, the next several generations of the USA didn't listen to what they said.

Now we pay.......

Tony

If the FF's were alive today and governing, we wouldn't have to level anyone because there would be little to no animosity towards the US. The FF's were smart enough to keep from aiding France even though they saved our backsides, so they surely would have kept our nose out of the ME. That non interventionist policy of theirs served us well and would probably serve us just as well today.

Do Marines, Barbary Coast and Thomas Jefferson ring any bells?

Opps....guess not. I see it was discussed above. Carry on.

Hmmm...The FF education was backed in the real history of the world and how former and present people governed themselves...That education shaped their thinking to form the conclusions they arrived at. I don't think they would write it much differently as the abuses of power now compared to then are just wearing different clothes...The basic premises would still be intact...

That's one answer.

Or you tie them to a tree slap some bacon grease on them and let the bears have them. I suppose that would be cruel though.

Basic boat building / navigation courses,....and a Map of the Pacific would be a mite more compassionate than grease and trees.

........Asia's out there,....somewhere.

Go.

GTC

There is no doubt in my mind that the FF's would have leveled Saudi right after 9/11, no questions asked and regardless of the consequences to the oil supply. They then would've taken the dammed oil and given it to the American people until every jot and tittle that the A-rabs owed us for making us kill their people and level their hovels was paid. Then a little for interest. Sad would've been moldering in his grave already from Gulf War I with Iraq irrigated and growing corn among newly-built Wal Mart's and newly made lakes. It would be a vacation-destination rather than a desert hellhole. Iran would be too frickin' scared to do anything and probably would be welcoming Christians instead of persecuting them. The FF's would think nothing of nuking the whole dammed affair if the Russians or Chinese meddled.

Just think what it would be like if Jeff Davis was our President...

You'd win that bet, for sure.

That's phuggin classic. I love it!

I am still trying to figure out how anyone would think that the FF would be neocons. I guess it must be a lawyer thing.

isaac,

It's really not a fair question; as people of that high level of character are almost non-existent in American politics. And it's likely that the ratio is almost the same in society. Even some of our more intelligent people could not write a document as good as the Constitution. The morals and ethics of our nation have, for the most part; slid that far down the slope.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!