None of this surprised me, but given how you guys talk, it might surprise some of you?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31199889/

Excerpt:

"The story of today�s deficits starts in January 2001, as President Bill Clinton was leaving office. The Congressional Budget Office estimated then that the government would run an average annual surplus of more than $800 billion a year from 2009 to 2012. Today, the government is expected to run a $1.2 trillion annual deficit in those years.

You can think of that roughly $2 trillion swing as coming from four broad categories: the business cycle, President George W. Bush�s policies, policies from the Bush years that are scheduled to expire but that Mr. Obama has chosen to extend, and new policies proposed by Mr. Obama.

The first category � the business cycle � accounts for 37 percent of the $2 trillion swing. It�s a reflection of the fact that both the 2001 recession and the current one reduced tax revenue, required more spending on safety-net programs and changed economists� assumptions about how much in taxes the government would collect in future years.

Wall Street bailout
About 33 percent of the swing stems from new legislation signed by Mr. Bush. That legislation, like his tax cuts and the Medicare prescription drug benefit, not only continue to cost the government but have also increased interest payments on the national debt.

Mr. Obama�s main contribution to the deficit is his extension of several Bush policies, like the Iraq war and tax cuts for households making less than $250,000. Such policies � together with the Wall Street bailout, which was signed by Mr. Bush and supported by Mr. Obama � account for 20 percent of the swing.

About 7 percent comes from the stimulus bill that Mr. Obama signed in February. And only 3 percent comes from Mr. Obama�s agenda on health care, education, energy and other areas.

If the analysis is extended further into the future, well beyond 2012, the Obama agenda accounts for only a slightly higher share of the projected deficits. "

Jeff, you forgot to include this excerpt.

The second is that Mr. Obama does not have a realistic plan for eliminating the deficit, despite what his advisers have suggested.

and this one.

The solution, though, is no mystery. It will involve some combination of tax increases and spending cuts. And it won�t be limited to pay-as-you-go rules, tax increases on somebody else, or a crackdown on waste, fraud and abuse. Your taxes will probably go up, and some government programs you favor will become less generous.

Yep! No doubt.

Just thought it was interesting. Around here, Obama is routinely vilefied for running this huge deficit... most of which, is actually Bush's deficit.

-jeff

The fact that you get your information from PMSNBC explains a lot, although it's not surprising.

And this one...

"Mr. Obama�s main contribution to the deficit is his extension of several Bush policies, like the Iraq war and tax cuts for households making less than $250,000. Such policies � together with the Wall Street bailout, which was signed by Mr. Bush and supported by Mr. Obama � account for 20 percent of the swing.

About 7 percent comes from the stimulus bill that Mr. Obama signed in February. And only 3 percent comes from Mr. Obama�s agenda on health care, education, energy and other areas"

Well of course, It is Bush's fault. How long are ya gonna hang on to that excuse?

Easy to leave little things like that out when you're a TROLL. Kinda like paying taxes for the dumbacraps...OOPPSS I forgot.

Old saying: Consider the source.

MSNBC via JeffO. Trolling at its finest.

dftft

All reported on MSNBC . Oh yeah they have some credibility. 2010 is coming and there is going to be one serious housecleaning.

Dumbass +P+.......

Yep.

DFTFT.

JO=Dumbazz +P+.........

Gotta love that part......................

DFTFT..........

Bush also was responsible for the Reichstag fire, the sinking of the Andrea Doria, the breakup of Marilyn Monroe and Joe Dimaggio and Hurricane Hazel. He is also an enabler....if Bush f*&%ed up the economy, Obama will finish the job for sure, put MORE troops in Afganistan....etc., etc.,

Of course - Obama voted for Bush's last budget as well.

"The Jeff O brain deficit" EXTREME

Jeff O,

Come out of the closet..

The biggest threat isn't even the deficit. It's the administration running roughshod over bankruptcy laws and private industry.

If you have the kind of money to invest - big dollars, why in the hell would you ever buy bonds in a company if the gov can simply negate your investment without any challenge?

Today's bond auction shows that - interest rates are climbing because the risk is, climbs much more and we'll really see some crying.

Last years being Bush's, the one Obama voted for as a Senator.

4x increase. Amazing, but this moron want's us to believe it is all Bush's.

Andrew;

DFTFT.

How's the fishing up there where you're presumed dead?

The whole, complete, entire U.S banking system is a FRAUD. But I haven't enough skin on my fingers to go into that here........

Haven't been fishing in weeks. Lousy weather. Cold and rain.

Been running RC trucks with the runt, pretty addictive.

How are things in Virginia?



(BTW - that's the mental midgets at MSNBC with the graphic, and we are supposed to take them serious on economic matters?)

I can hear Jeff google imaging Virginia now to see why this is wrong....

You guys had some fun with this! That's cool.

Point is, it's routine around here to trumpet the '09 deficit as if it's Obama's. It's not, mostly.

I'm not even gonna touch the straw men and crap you guys barfed up. I don't like the current course any more than any of you do- but let us be realistic about where the current course came from.

........." let us be Realistic"

well, that's a damned ODD comment to make at this point in your verbal diarhea case History.

GTC

A rather lame way to justify your obama vote isn't cutting it. Everyone sees it for the crap it is.

BTW Obama voted for all the TARP and bail-out spending during the previous administration, so he gets his share of that, too.

JeffO-

Pray tell, where is all the promised change then?

Jeff,

I stay out of the Jeff bashing but this was a backdoor trolling effort of the first order. While true Bush was no fiscal conservative - have you gandered/pondered the budget and associated implications of Obama? He cried long and hard about Bush'e spending. Under current budget conditions, Obama will make Bush look like Mother Theresa.

There is no way the US can sustain its current spending on the Obama "change" project. It is a telling factoid that Obama - and everyone else with a brain - knows the budget situation - whatever its source - and he doubles/triples the expected deficit on 20 years worth of pent up Democrat spending projects. A. you can't print your way out of that mess, B. how long do you think the world will keep buying a devlaued America, C. taxation is the only means of maintaining any resemblence of this former country.

I work for the governement as a mid-level manager in one of the larger regulatory agencies (Dept of Interior). The increase in scope and reach of government in the past 4-5 months has been incredible - and quite subtle to the American people. All under the guise of the Federal gov will rescue the situation. Some improvements likley need to occur in some areas of State gov but do we really need more environmental laws in the name of global warming? Or government ownership of private entities? As much as I hate CEO compensation - do you really want your government weighing in on how much individuals make?

I'll be real curious how the American people react when they realize the government bailout for "them" will cost them in less take-home pay. Or possibly the "rich" will pay for it. It si a fairly simple principle - don't spend more than you make. Hard choices need made, especially on the social program side of the house. I don't care what flavor someone is - R, D, or I, show me someone with the cajones to change the social welfare in this country. It can't be sustained..........

However this mess manifests itself - higher taxes, bankrupt country, foreign ownership - I'll don't want to hear anyone that voted for Obama bitch about anything. You wanted change, you're going to get it. I hope we survive.

BS.........the fed fiscal year starts October 1 . From that point for extra spending Bush basically had TARP , which he signed and the Democratic controlled congress gleefully passed. TARP was authorized for about 700 b , of which Bush spent HALF . Enter 'bammy on Jan. 20 . He spends the rest of TARP..350 B . Then immediately the stimulous...800 B or so . Then this spring another 420 B of extra discretionary spending.

That brings your boy up to nearly 1.5 Trillion of ill advised wild spending in barely 6 months . Now he is on to maybe 600 B for a govt. takeover of health care , but wait , he will have his carbon tax to pay for that......which will suck any remaining wind out of the economy .


Like it or not this is now 'bammy's deficit , and 'bammy's economy .

Hey Jeff_O (short for Obama),

As you can see by the responses to the latest Obama drivel you have puked on the Campfire, your credibility here is currently lower than the proverbial whale schit!

What your hero does or does not do regarding our nation's current fiscal crisis is irrelevant, since everyone knows (except you) that it's the Congress that controls the purse strings in this country NOT THE PRESIDENT!

So, why don't you focus on some of the things that your hero is actually responsible for, like appointing people like far left liberal Sotomayor to the Supreme Court and selecting Cabinet officers like the avowed anti-gunner Eric Holder and partial birth abortion sympathizer Kathleen Sebelius?

If your objective here is to continously rile up Campfire members with your inane attempts to defend the indefensible, then why don't you address "realistic" issues such as these....................huh?

DFTFT.................................

LMAO.. Well that source is the first indication as to the probable truth factor..


Nice try, JeffO... But even YOU can do better than that...

10802 posts and still ain't learned nothing...(and counting)

Bush didn�t do us any favors, but why do you insist on living in the past? Bush is ancient history now. The real issue is �what are we going to do now.� Obama is accelerating the profligate ways of his predecessor rather than going back to the simple concepts of bygone eras that governments, like individuals, should live within their means. Viewed in that light, a continuation of the Bush policies would have been an improvement over the current administration!

and he kidnapped the Lindbergh baby, don't forget that

Bush also was responsible for the burning of Rome...

+1 tzone. That's why I don't respond to this Jeff O loser.

+1

True, but keep in mind that the President does have the power to veto pork laden spending bills instead of signing them. Unfortunately we have not had a President with balls to tell Congress no since Reagan was in office. I seriously doubt Obama will ever veto a single spending bill put before him.

He probably won't, and we'll have good reason to blame him for what HE'S [bleep] up, at some point in the future.

People here are so anti-Obama that they distort the facts with, for example, regards to this year's deficit. We'll have plenty of reason, I would guess, to be mad at him later- for stuff he actually DID.

Then again, we'd be singing the same song if it were McCain.

First off I'm no Obama supporter don't trust him at all.

But Jeff you need to get your information from reliable sources like these...LMAO

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...&topic=0&Search=true#Post3084121

Nice edit Jeff, I was going to say "touche" to your Reagan deficit comment but........

it's gone.

IMO the only real way to fix the current deficit mess is going to be by raising taxes and making huge cuts in spending, unfortunately neither party has the political will to do that.

You're a [bleep] idiot. No one made Obama sign the stimulus bill. Not one ounce of that Stimulus Bill was Bush's.

As to the budget, if he did what he said he would do when he was running, he would have not signed any money going to Iraq and was under no obligation to continue Bush programs or add his own. He signed it, it's his.

But you're too busy trying to justify being a dumbf@ck voting for the guy, that you're ignoring every wrong he is doing. Please go play in traffic, you add nothing to this site or to the country. Just a shallow little realtor who has no idea what patriotism is, because you've never done or sacrificed anything, but tend to your own little superficial world.

JO seems to forget that the President can only sign legislation into law only what Congress gives him. Congress controls the purse stringts of this country not the President and who controlled Congress in the last six years of Bush's Administration, Nancy Polosi, Harry Ried and company and they are Democraps if memory serves me right. So who's to blame for the large dificiet, it's the party that controls Congress.

Smartest thing I've heard you say in a while. Well, ever actually. Maybe there's still hope.....grins

Obama just hasn't had time to spend it yet.
Picture of Congressional Budget Office estimates says it all as to what's on the charge card...

NYT showing its impartiality once again. Sure, let's compare completed spending of Bush, vs. completed spending of Obama who's only been in office 4 months...that's fair...

Actually Republicans held the majority in Congress until November of 2006, it does however seem like Pelosi and Reid have been in charge for an eternity.

FB - yep that's the really scary one. You can just see the money you have shrinking. Good time to turn money into tangibles...

Jeff,

You really are a typical brainwashed Oregon liberal troll.

One of the million reasons I left that state and moved to Washington. The atmosphere is cleaner here.

You want to start laughing consider that the ass clown we have running this country said if we didn't bale out Detroit we would have unemployement rates of 8%, has anyone checked the rate lately, its over 9%. If you get a chance watch two seconds of either Pelosi, or Frank. Honestly I would not let these two [bleep] heads flip my burger.

Oh yeah and dont forget the liberal fugs also think Bush took down the world trade towers and busted the dikes down in New Orleans. Glad that certain people aligne themselves with the Jerry Springer crowd. Get your news from MTV JO? Talk about credibility....

Not the "change" that what was promised. Not the "change" that I believe in.

Can we change congress in 2010? Yes we can!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am remembering that Obama put the wars on the official budget, whereas Bush kept them off. No? Anyone have any idea of what the chart above would look like with that added in? Or is it already?

With Bush's history of signing stimulus bills, I hardly think you guys are justified in pretending that a Republican prez wouldn't have signed some sort of stimulus bill. No?

Funny how everyone else around here can talk politics all [bleep] day long, as long as you toe the conservative party line. I point out some simple facts- such as Bush's culpability for this recession, or that the bulk of this deficit is due to a simple continuation of Bush's FUBAR mess... and get flamed as a troll. I call BS.

If you guys can't handle someone pointing this stuff out without a meltdown, then that speaks to the weakness of your position.

BOTH parties have been spending money like it didn't matter, since Reagan. Obama will be as guilty as any of them. WILL BE. At this point, all he's done is grab the wheel of a car that Bush had careening off a cliff, and try to get it out of the skid.

Sorry that that's true, I know it chaps some asses around here.

From the extremely liberal Heritage Foundation:

"Presidents Bush and Obama share responsibility for the FY 2009 budget deficit that overlaps their administrations, before President Obama assumes full budgetary responsibility beginning in FY 2010."

Look at the chart above and mark my words. By 2012, Hussein will be claiming to have cut the deficit to less than half what it was.

It's politics, not recovery.

BTW, I didn't read where anyone in this thread discounted Bush having a hand in the problem. Just that Obama is like Bush on steroids when it comes to federal spending.

Are you saying that Bush spent just as much on stimulus spending as Obama? Which even if true, would be skewed since Bush was president for 8 years and Obama only 4 months.

Jeff,
according to this Heritage Foundation article, the #'s during the Bush years of that graph do include the war spending, there's no difference in accounting there that I can tell. Also according to the original Washington Post article, all the numbers came from CBO.

From the article:

Are you done calling names, and ready to have a more reasonable discussion, FB?

There is no doubt that Obama is setting himself to break GW Bush's record. It took Bush 8 years to double the national debt, adding $5 trillion. Obama looks to do that is his first 3 years.

But the fact remains that even with a Republican Congress, Bush ran up the national debt by Trillions, and we went from a budget surplus for a deficit.

The problem has been that recent Republicans have cut taxes without cutting spending (typically increasing spending - just on things conservatives like, such as defense). But there's a limited amount of money in the treasury.

The problem is probably beyond all control at this point. As things stand, within a few years the majority of the budget will be spent to pay interest on the national debt. The US is borrowing money from countries like China to pay its way. The rest of the world is looking for a replacement for the dollar as reserve currency, and when that happens, it is going to get ugly.

Meanwhile, individual liberties in the US are under constant attack, whether in the name of fighting terrorism, or to push a social agenda.

Unless there is a radical change, which is highly unlikely, the US as most of us have known it is doomed to become a 2nd world power or worse. Hyperinflation? Bankrupt state governments? At the very least, the elimination of social programs that will leave million with nothing, and those people who have nothing to lose are very dangerous. Like it or not, welfare capitalism kept people vested in the system and with enough to lose that the riots and revolutions of Europe and Asia were avoided.

Just watch. When the rioting starts in the big cities, when unemployment exceeds depression levels, there'll be calls for troops. It will be egged on by 'conservatives' The liberals will use this as an excuse to restrict guns, and both side will call for restriction on speech and other right 'for the duration of the emergency', which will of course, never end.

Ya' know something Jeff-O (short for Obama) if you weren't so [bleep] stupid you would have probably figured out by now that doesn't really matter anymore if you are right or wrong.

Most of us here just think you are an azzhole that's all!

He still hasn't learned that starting paragraphs with "Correct me if I'm wrong....." probably isn't going to go his way. Too stupid to know when people are calling him a [bleep], Muslim voter.....

Conservatives will just think it's the end times, and walk around all blissed out with their faces upturned... grin...

(couldn't resist)

Look, I share everyone's frustration. I hate both the Dem's and the Repub's for their utter dishonesty and lack of balls. Politicians, I mean.

What drives me even more nuts is dishonest partisanship. Let's kick Bush's butt for what he did wrong. Soon enough, we'll be able to start whipping on Obama HONESTLY. And I'll be right there joining in. But it's just a simple fact that most of Obama's policy so far is either a continuation of Bush's, or is an attempt to deal with a mess that, at a minimum, Bush let fester.

And, if McCain had been elected, the policies would be for all intents playing out the same so far, and the apologists here would be lining up to defend them. That's what I mean by dishonest partisanship.

.......................................................

2muchgun, my stupidity, and I'll admit to it straight up, is a continuing hope that there's a chance of having a polite debate around here.

With (insert childish insults here) like Nemesis, VAnimrod, and yourself here flinging mud, it is, indeed stupid to think such a thing is possible.

Guilty as charged- but YOU guys should be embarrassed for acting like complete, total (insert childish insults here)!

There may be some here who are blinded by your great wall of bullschit, but I don't fall neatly into that category. Nor do any of my friends here. You continually fabricate posts with no other objective in mind other than to stir the pot and/or see your name in lights. You then repeatedly hide behind your false cloak of cordiality and expect others to sympathize. Sociopaths don't amuse me. Here, so I know you understand......

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

Sad, but that scenario just might come to fruition in the near future.

When you voted for obama you shot yourself in the foot,and stabbed most Camfire members in the back,and you continue to drag this crap up and then expect the members to be polite to you,you must enjoy all the verbal abuse cause your still hanging around, and how any true American could vote an anti gun muslim to be an American President is simply amazing,I just don't get it.... and it seems you don't either!!

Bob,

Jeff O is not a troll. He has some wrong-headed ideas, but he is respectful and sincere. He is many times better than those who continually slam him.

Also, there are WAY more loonely liberals in WA State than in Oregon. It's always been that way..............

[/quote]
Jeff O is not a troll. He has some wrong-headed ideas, but he is respectful and sincere. He is many times better than those who continually slam him. [/quote]

Troll? Maybe not. Wrong-headed? Absofuckinlutely. Respectful and sincere? If you're dumb enough to buy it. Better? NOT!

Get a clue, Blaine.....

dftft.

Bingo!

Jeff_O had special insight as to the magic muslim's real thoughts on the 2A.

He rolled the dice to assuage his white guilt, plain and simple. Just had to show his gay liberal friends how open minded he is.

2muchgun,

Honest question.

How well would YOU do if every attempt you made to have a polite conversation got slimed by relentless namecalling and attacks?

I do my best. I'm not perfect. I take shots at my tormentors when they are being particularly stupid (like VAnimrod, grin).

But for what it's worth coming from me, what Blaine says is true. I am making a good faith effort to have a decent conversation among adults here. And I absorb an incredible amount of crap in the process, mostly without responding in kind.

I have my limit, and I may just reach it. If you really feel that this place would be better off without me, just keep it up and eventually I'll just say screw this and go away. And you can sit here and agree with each other. And that would be better? That would be more interesting? That would make for a better forum?

I think not, but perhaps what you guys want is just a bunch of guys nodding their heads.

I've already given the jackazz more time than i alotted for him in 2009. Seems others don't need me to formulate the truth anyway. He made his own bed, and members here with a brain know it.

You got tomorrow night off, I hope?

JO,

It does no good to try and talk to these guys-



Life is short and I'm going fishing. Arguing on the internet is like...

There's that sociopath thing shinin' through again.

Truth is Jeff, you bring everything upon yourself. Everyone knows that but you. First, it's a shout from the mountain tops, then it's a cry for sympathy. The amazing part, to me anyway, is that you continue to do it, learning nothing from your mistakes in the process. That tells me you must like it......

Me, Sean, and Mac.......

At least I can now say I'm the monkey in the middle........

Though, at least I'm the good looking one............

I reckon that stone likeness in the back would have to depict Steelhead, then..........................

Negative. The damn white shirts ordered me in. The world is so unfair.

What the hell's with the weiners on the desks?

I'll be the ape furthest away from the stone dongs.

They don't have Viagra?

That sucks, man. I'll hoist a few in your honor........

One on the left is the JO signature series. For realtors who sit on their ass all day.....

I used to think as you do ... that Jeff_O was just a guy with some different philosophical views I couldn't get behind, and that folks piled on him too much for it. But here of late he has prolifically started threads deliberately worded to poke a thumb in the eye of folks' beliefs. They go beyond a simple desire to explore an issue. He's crossed the line to trolling in that regard and basically gets exactly what he is asking for ... to deny it is willful ignorance. I won't call him names but I did put him on ignore and don't read his crap anymore.

Well, let's see now..........Jeff_O (short for Obama).

You've already been called a dumb [bleep], liberal, Obama loving, baby killing, stupid, azzhole, troll.

Dang it man, we're trying our best here, but exactly what will it take to make you, as you say........ "go away?"

You dipschit......

2much, here's how you are wrong.

I didn't post this thread for attention, or because I'm a sociopath.

I posted it because it's a simple fact that this year's deficit is NOT because Obama came in and went nuts. Bush has major culpability, but you'd never know it around HERE because, by and large, folks are in lock-step.

I'm not dying to see my name in lights, as you put it. Instead, I'm calling BS.

Furthermore, and to Blaine's point, you and "your friends" are the masters of the self-fulfilling prophesy. You want to be able to accuse me of posting crappy threads? Well then... Just show up, be an azz, and viola! Crappy thread. You have it down pat. How... special for you and "your friends".

Which leads naturally to the next point. WHO has made this about themself? Why, YOU did! I just posted a topic for discussion. You showed up and made sure it was all about YOU, and "your friends". Meanwhile, you add nothing. No light, all heat. Vypical (another shot at VA, just can't help it).

So 2muchgun... You stunk the place up, made it all about you and "your friends". Mission accomplished. Bully for you.

Don't let the door hit you in the azz on the way out!

I'm thinkin' that YOU are the only one here who sees it that way.

YOU voted for OBAMA. Live with it. Quit trying to justify it. Isn't that what this whole thread was about from the get-go?

You got the floor, 2much. You showed up... made a stink... Derailed a thread that some of us were enjoying... made it all about YOU...

You stumbled on stage at the bar and grabbed the microphone. The band has stopped playing. It's your moment. Go for it! Sing, man, sing!

Blaine-
You must have a different definition of troll than I do. Were I to daily plop down amid a group of predomininantly conservative men and women with esteem for traditional American values and spin around like a rain-bird sprinkler spewing a urine shower of offensive "progressive thought" in their faces, a negative response is guaranteed, predictable, and I believe in JO's case hoped for. That's pure trolling, no matter how "respectfully" it is delivered. If he respected the folks here he's take it somewhere else, (but then he wouldn't be able to offend anyone, hook them, and play them awhile for the way they protest the urine shower).

Give JO some credit for all the effort he has put forth to achieve the utter lack of respect he currently enjoys, he really does deserve it!

Tease...

You still here azzhat?

Well, hey, thanks. Seems to me I'm not the only one here calling you a retard though. Why single me out? But hell, I'll take the credit. Thanks again........

I double dog dare you....

+3......

You know this guy Jeff_O (short for Obama) is like dog schit on the bottom of your shoe..........no matter how much you try to scrape it off, the smell just seems to linger on and on!

Blaine
Yeah I know what you mean... Like this response from the respectful one...

"Paul, you are punk. Flat out. Whine all you want. You said it, not me. For those wondering WTF, Paul told me "You are a load your mother should have swallowed!" because I DARED suggest that I'd rather tote a 30-06 than a .223 deer hunting. In my world, a man does not say something like that to another man. His little punk world is apparantly different. The punk Paul Walukewitz in his little punk world."

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...&topic=0&Search=true#Post3070039

And you must realize there is something more to this. Paul said the same thing to JO a while before. A long while before. When jumped about it because JO was saying all sorts of stuff about how utterly tasteless it was, etc, Paul apologized. JO sniveled for a very long time over the comment.

Then he uses the same cheap shot but has not had the decency to apologize, as Paul did. The sniveling about Paul's use of the same comment was pitiful, but deserved. That is until he used it back.

At this point I pity JO more than anything else. He is clearly clueless afield and needs to demonstrate it on a regular basis.

He is clearly clueless at the bench and is so desperate to demonstrate he posts pictures that must be staged for stupidity... And lacks the sense to shut-up and learn when the obvious is revealed.

He does not bring out the best here and he has shown deterioration, not growth. Sad when pity is the best most muster.

So I am missing the "respectful" you speak of.
art

I just reread the post and particularly the quote and see it was changed. Edited without specifying the edit... Making it look like JO did not indeed simply reply in kind after much time...

Worse than tacky...

Now I see the original post is toast and the one I posted a response... My mistake on the accusation of wrong-doing. It was based on thinking the search was complete and I jumped the gun a bit. Sorry about that to all readers.
art

I see JO asking honest questions and offering honest opinions. I have always thought that NOTHING is so sacred that it is exempt for being questioned. I usually find that a belittling and condescending reply to an honest question is usually evidence of a lack of ideas on the part of the questionee. Yes, some questions are frustrating in their ignorance--like most of the attacks against Christianity I see here--however, they are not hard to answer and refute their premise.

I think most of Jeff's questions and opinions against convervative values are the same way. They may be frustrating, but it is not hard to answer the question and refute the premise. However, when the fist thing out of someone's virtual mouth is "Jeff you suck so snd so's c--k," and such responses are the norm for that person, then the conservative side loses--especially when there is NEVER any requirement for someone to comment on the post anyway.

My position remains unchanged. If a person cannot engage JO in a respectful manner, the he/she needs to STFU and let someone with a clue how to respond handle it. There is NO excuse for following ANYONE around and posting belittling BS.

Nicely said Blaine.

I'd sooner share a fire with Jeff then all his detractors combined.

Honesty is obvious to anyone with a clue... as are mean-spirited [bleep].

Agreed.

I don't always agree with what Jeff posts, but he has every right to his opinion.
I have gotten impatient with him a time or two, but he has let it slide after I have apologized.

Can't ask more than that of a guy, really.

Just give him advice Blaine....see how respectful he really is.

Some may seem so shallow as to join a pile on.

There may be a reason for the pile on.

Lotsa members here, yet only a few routinely annoy folks....

In my opinion, you epitomize the worst of the campfire. You're vulgar, rude, narcissistic and frankly one of the most unpleasant people I've ever run across in make believe land(internet).

I know there's a good person in there somewhere Nemesis, I just wish you'd let him come out.

Blaine, gotta hand it to you, you have some real class.

Jeff,maybe it's time to stop starting threads that you know will fan the flames,I'm sure you know what I'm talking about,the campfire really isn't interested in hearing how great your new POTUS is,you tend to post things that your sure will get some hateful responses from certain members,your just as much to blame as the "name callers".....just sayin!

Exactly..........

Blaine
Just to be straight on your response; You think Jeff should use the same low class comment as he was handed, and apologized to for, but without the apology?

Just asking because I think you dodged it once...
art

Art,

Not responding isn't dodging. Your three consecutive posts, when taken together, didn't exactly paint a clear picture of what you were trying to say.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I did look at the link and saw some conflcit, but it didn't seem to support the case you were making. So I decided to look deeper until I saw there were 77 pages--and I have my preferences set for 35 posts per page. It's not worth wading through all that to find what I have seen time and again here on the Campfire.

So I just decided to be polite and not say anything to you.

However, now that you have stated it again, I will say this. When someone initiates a "low class" comment, they get the reply they deserve. I imagine it went something like this..........

Jeff O said something that DARED challenge a sacred Campfire belief. Others disagreed, but JO argued his case well enough that the usual suspects start in with the name calling. Jeff replied in kind. They got what they deserved.

I have been through this same schitt myself, and I just don't tolerate the disrespect anymore. JO has been very helpful in showing me who is disrespectful by nature.

Jeff would have to stop starting threads and posting all together to avoid that. There are several regular posters here who are such losers that they follow Jeff around and post schitty things solely for the purpose of trying to "get him." Such people are beneath contempt, and THEY are the ones that need to quit posting, not Jeff.

Blaine
Unfortunately, the key post was deleted in which Jeff said "Paul was a load his mother should have swallowed."

Please tell me how that is appropriate under any circumstances.

At this point he has not apologized, even when the lack of supporting factors are noted.

Other details exist, but none excuse the comment.

We disagree entirely in our opinions of Jeff and that is likely where the differences exist. He is anything except a source of reliable information. He is one of the few here I would not go out of my way to meet... and would actually avoid.
art

It's just not worth the effort.


I'll make you look silly,..you'll fire back,..



In the end we'll both look like a couple of jackazzes.

So does that mean you can't piss very far or .................you just don't wanna try?


PS
I'm just funnin' with ya' man.

[/quote]

Jeff would have to stop starting threads and posting all together to avoid that. [/quote]

Hey, now there's an idea......

Understatement of the year, right there......

Did you actually read this, Blaine? Are you to tell me Ackleyfan is not correct? JO knew in advance that starting a post in support of Obama's supposed lack of spending would be pouring gas on the fire. Yet he chose to do it anyway. Nobody made him, he did it all by himself. He does this schit all the time. Open your eyes, man......

Art I read through this whole thread and didn't find an apology from Paul to Jeff anywhere. But I did find some more insults...

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...l+Walukewicz&topic=0&Search=true


jc

Nor have you seen the PM's.

Well if you insult someone publicly opolagize publicly it takes all the guess work out of it.

You might want to send Paul a PM and remind him of that. Course lots of folks are insulting JO in public.

joe
You are also missing the sniveling at great length done because the insult was so serious to one of them...

Regardless, the comment should never have come from either side and the lessons were obviously not learned the first time. The second use of the insult, based on the lessons from the first use are what destroyed any hope of Jeff ever gaining credibility with me.

Clearly, he is as concerned about that as I am with him. Which is 100% fair.

Coupled with the obvious skills and experience displayed and the penchant for stirring... I read Troll all over his posts.
art

Yep, lets say hypothetically that I called Brad a sawed off [bleep], I wouldn't expect him to quote it again and again.

JO is a victim to the nth degree, it certainly explains his voting.

That's been my position from the git.

Blaine-
Two years ago, probably. Time to catch up, my friend. Lately he is 100% divisive pot stirrer.

If you left your garage door open at night and predictably somebody stole all your stuff, we would blame the crooks. If it was still happening two years later and the crooks were lining up in front of your house waiting for you to go to bed, who would we blame?

JO gets predictable results and we must conclude that he intends to get them at this point because he changes nothing. He's been on the internet since 1991 and knows exactly what he is doing. He is a troll.

Good LORD.

I stepped away from this thread because it wasn't going anywhere and it seemed like time to let it go. I had NO IDEA all this was going on.

Sitka Deer, you are misrepresenting the events around Paul's post to such a degree that I can only conclude you are lying intentionally.

Here's what happened.

On this thread:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...l+Walukewicz&topic=0&Search=true

Paul said to me, "You are a load your mother should have swallowed". I, along with several other people (not YOU, though, Art) found this incredibly offensive. I told him so. I initiated a PM with him to try and sort it out. He was completely uninterested in any kind of apology, not even privatly. Let me say this again. Paul DID NOT apologize, not publically, and not privatly. I still have that PM thread.

Then a month or so ago, the 7-08 thread had degenerated to the point that I just went with it and decided to have some fun hitting some of my tormentors back. I wrote a limerick to this effect:

"There once was a punk named Paul Walukewitz,
who said something vile to me, and here it is:
He said, "you are a load, your mother should have swallowed..."
So I'm throwing him on the fire with these other [bleep]!"

Sitka Deer, anyone capable of reading can see that I'm not saying that about his mom. Instead, I dragged HIS BEHAVIOR out into the light, to whack him upside the head with it. What's wrong with that?! HE SAID IT! Not me.

What was funny at the time, Sitka, was that you first lambasted me because you thought I was making that vile statement... then when it was pointed out that they were Paul's words, you backpedaled so hard you just about jumped your chain! And NOW, you seem to have forgotten all that and you misrepresented the whole thing AGAIN.

And since you seem to be accusing me of I'm not sure what with respect to editing posts, you do realize there's a very short time window in which a post can be edited, right? I could no more edit one of those posts now than I could jump over the moon. I don't like typo's in my posts, and I don't like it when I say something in a way that isn't clear. I routinely edit posts after I re-read them. But it happens AT THE TIME. That's the only way it CAN happen, Art.

Finally as to whether I'm a troll. Is this thread- the Obama deficit or whatever it's called, provocative? Of course it is. So?! There's also some real truth to it. 2/3 of the posts on this section of the 'fire are provocative political posts. I post something pointing out that it's not proper to call the current deficit the Obama deficit, and I'm trolling, when any number of folks could make the opposite contention (which isn't even TRUE, but who's counting apparantly) and that's not trolling?

This will mean squat coming from me, but Blaine has it about right. The general pattern is that I say something that challenges one of the sacred cows of the Campfire... I do a decent job of making my case... and the more clear it is that whoa, he's actually CORRECT... the more the usual suspects show up to try and derail the whole thing with insults and completely off-topic bullshit. Like on this thread!

That punk Paul Walukewitz is a classic example. On a thread about using a .223 for deer, I said I'd rather use a 30-06. I gave my reasons, good ones as far as I'm concerned... and Paul said THAT to me?! WTF? And now I'm the bad guy?

And by the way, what he said to me is completely unacceptable in the realm of adult discourse, and I will continue to call him what he is, a punk, anytime there's reason for his name to cross my lips. You don't say something like about someone's mother. Period. He's a punk.

Whatever. Nothing I can say or do will change a thing. I am evil incarnate, I want to destroy America, and because I:

-would choose another color than blue for my muzzle tape;
-would prefer a larger caliber than .223 for deer;
-choose a bullet that behaves differently than a TSX;
-consider 7-08 and .308 to be essentially the same damn thing;
-hunt with a loaded chamber, usually;
-voted for Obama because I really didn't think McCain was president material...

I am the devil incarnate. So be it. At this point, I don't even care anymore. You guys win. Hooray for you.

Didn't say you would destroy America, this place though, you been working pretty well at that.

The bile that some of you spew is, indeed, caustic to this place.

That you spew it at me is incidental.

Open wide.......

There are 3 people that "catch the bile". You, Liar and Maser.

That's 3 people out of almost 22,000. So what's more likely, that 3 of you are right and 21,997 are the problem or the other way around?

If I had a child that got into a lot of trouble, got kicked out of 5 schools and basically couldn't just get along with the group, I am guessing the problem isn't the group or the school.

I don't agree with all the name calling but some of the jabs are quite funny,but I understand why it's happening,most of us here are very serious about the future of hunting and firearms and the well being of our country,that some have entrusted to a marxist muslim,so when a certain poster throws gas on the fire some of the members fire back with insults,and will likely continue if a certain poster continues to stir the pot, so if it's wrong to call names than it's wrong to stir the pot....just sayin!

The name calling is annoying, but I can take it.

But it gets it bit silly to then turn around and blame ME for ruining the place, doesn't it?

If you took this thread, and removed the off-topic and mean-spirited posts by Sitka Deer, Steelhead, 2muchgun, CastandBlast, and the others of that sort, what would be left?

Why... a fairly civil, decent discussion about the deficit, and where to apportion blame for it.

Imagine that! :-)

... and to expound on that a little...

I have to give credit where it's due.

Steelhead, that punk Walukewitz, Castandblast, 2muchgun, Calvin, VAnimrod, and so on are the absolute masters of coming in, completely destroying a thread, then turning around and blaming someone else for it.

In every case, when a thread goes to crap that they are involved in, if you removed their "contribution", what would be left would be a perfectly good thread.

And yet, they manage to turn it around such that they portray themselves as some sort of "victim". A victim of... ME!?

I'm sorry, but that's just FUNNY right on the face of it.

Laffin', as they like to say.

The answer to that is NOTHING, Jeff. There would be NOTHING left of this thread. Not "......a fairly civil, decent discussion......"

Go back and read the first couple pages. It was never a civil discusssion about anything. NOBODY wanted to hear your schit right from the get-go. The thread never "went to crap". It started out crap and remains crap.

By the way, you left a lot of people in which you annoy the living schit out of off the list.......

Pretty much sums up Jeff....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4nQB3V10i8

Not destroying a thread, just idiotic threads they you get going Jeff Olsen. Consider it a Public Service, something you know nothing of.

I see I'm on the short list of people who "persecute" Jeff O.

It must suck to have people who actually do stuff in the outdoors questioning your wild ass guesses and theories. I've had you pegged as an idiot from the beginning, and many others have come to the same conclusion. Congratulations on being the biggest idiot on a forum of over 20k members. It's probably your biggest "accomplishment".

Lucky for you I'm getting ready to start a 100 day fishing season next friday, so you'll have 100 days to run your mouth about things you know nothing about. I'm sure some of the boys around here will keep you in check though.

Damn Jeff, I almost feel sorry for you...

WHY do you post here?

One sentence would suffice,.....

WHY?

GTC

When you start a thread with "The Obama Deficit?" not so much..." and don't expect to get flame sprayed you are either delusional or a complete idiot. I think you enjoy stiring the pot.

Just sayin.

He's trolling for Man Love..

I'm certain Brad will be along shortly to supply it.

I just don't see it that way. I see JO getting predictable results from a relatively small group of posters--say a couple dozen out of 22,000. These guys actually look for JO to post and then do their best to destroy the thread. I'm not talking an ocassional snide comment here and there, I am talking about a pattern of behavior that makes these normally decent fellows look like nothing but a gang of Internet loudmouths who don't like to be questioned and are easily offended.

I suppose if JO was the only guy to be the recipient of such behavior, I could find fault with him. However, I've seen this sort of thing happen to others.

What I cannot understand is why these guys just can't ignore JO--or whoever else happens to be the object of their wrath. After all, the ULTIMATE insult is to completely ignore those you don't like. Ignoring them means you car so little about their existence that what they post is not even woth a look.

Plain and simple, JO wants to be the center of attention and he'll do whatever he has to do to achieve it. Pitiful actually.

Then wouldn't the best way to "get him" be to ignore him?

You can't because he posts everywhere and all the time.. If he would scale back and just post when he has something constructive, things might be different. But then he can't be the center of attention.

You don't try to prove you are a moron every day and neither do I. Why should he?

It does not matter how much or where he posts if you ignore him. It's not like he is with you in person yelling in your ear. All you have to do is put him on ignore and then never toggle the link. Additionally, you never open a thread he starts.

I do this sort of thing with those I have on ignore all the time. Life is too short to be continually spun up by someone I despise, whether my despising them is justified or not.

What's Blaine saying toltec?

I think it's all pretty funny. Both sides.

Cheap 'entertainment'.

Don't really give a [bleep] one way or the other about crap people post on the internet. Figure out who to learn from and ignore the rest. Simple.

Wonder what Christ would say?

Christ wouldn't be sitting on his ass trying to type in the first place.

I hope he didn't get arrested this weekend. Last I heard he fell off the wagon in Butte. This was yesterday evening.
Poor bastid wants to get in trouble.

There's a Judas behind every tree......

Would a tire fire accomplish that?

Blaine
I have to admit Jeff is the first and only person I seriously considered putting on ignore. But he is the wreck you just have to open your eyes for. You know it is coming, just like slo-mo reruns, but you have to watch anyway.

The problem comes in when he starts dispensing his own advice contrary to valid stuff already on the table. The litany of idiocy is amazing and it will not even slow down, let alone stop. Even on the HS vs Micky thread he did not get the difference in mounting scopes between his and the pictures and tried to restart the flames there...

Few come close to his post output and none match the obvious lack of value in the posts.
YMMV
art

I'm sure something was burning, but it probably wasn't tires.

Unless of course he was partying with Edgar and Romulus....(grin)

Well Blaine, been watching JO trying to stir up the scope-mounting schitt all over again in the middle of an HS Precision vs. MacMillan thread today and doing his best to take it off topic and pour the gas to it. He's making the case that he's a troll with no help from anyone. You gonna give him another pass?

I'm sure its my fault...(grins)

Or he was awakened by the Asperger's.....

They did have three-quarters of a bottle left...last I heard anyway...get whiskey-drunk...grin

LMA0. Good guess, but it was Blaine strappin' one on......

Gonna take some spinning to make it appear so, doesn't mean it won't be tried! (Grins)

Art,

This isn't about the validity of JOs advice or the quality of his ideas. I have no issue with people attacking his ideas.

I, and I have always been this way, think it is beyond contemptable to REPEATEDLY resort to personal insults when one runs out of ideas.

I also think it is simple common sense to ignore those we despise...................

My sister thought the same, shame she's burning in hell.

Sure you can jeff because obama already has you bent over!

I'm not stirring anything up on that HS thread.

I was surprised to see Hawks scopes mounted (in some cases) all the way back. Seems like a gentleman would have mentioned that, when he was participating in the " discussion" on scope mounting. He quite pointedly did not.

Sitka Deer, what you are saying might have some validity if the positions I've taken on these issues weren't both supported by facts, and generally in the majority around here. For instance:

-over 70% of the Campfire hunts with a round in the chamber;

-the vast majority of folks here also prefer to hunt deer with a cartridge bigger than .223;

-scientists say deer see blue well;

-most here agree that 7-08 and .308 are functional equivelants for normal hunting;

And so on. I am hardly spouting nonsense. In fact, the opposite case could made.

Truth is, there's some folks here who can't deal with being disagreed with. It's just simple. And God help a guy, like myself, who is willing to stick to his guns and demonstrate that, in fact, a valid case can be made that is contrary to what a few of the more... aggressive members have staked out as their little pet dogmas.

Finally, Art, you are one of the biggest hypocrites I've ever had the displeasure of interacting with. It was downright absurd when you were a "moderator"; now its just comical. The thing with that punk Paul Walukewitz is just the latest example, though it's an egregious one.

What Blaine says is true. The thread I started a few days ago, on the phuggin' Classified forum of all places, is a great example. I'm just trying to get a quick price-check on some scopes I'm thinking of selling, and GeoW and 2MuchGun show up, start calling names and acting about 5 years old, and totally screw the thread up. Just laughable. Just HOW is that ok?

You can't make this [bleep] up.

First off, he ain't "my boy." Second, without sounding like someone who is easily offended, tell me how the comment:

"Surprised to see how far back many of those scopes are mounted."

is trolling?

I am not aware of the thread about scope mounting where there must have been a lot of drama. However, my suspicion is the "gang" didn't like JO's comments, and so they did their best to personally attack him to get him to shut up, but as usual they failed. Am I close here?

Regardless, JOs' comment on the HS vs McMillan thread was likely an attempted humorous reference to the optics argument. If one of the politically acceptable Campfire members had made such a reference, you'd probably think the comment was funny.

Almost surreal...

almost?

Looks like a pass to me Blaine. Being unaware of the original optics debacle would indeed make it tough to see why only a troll would want to flare it up again in the middle of a thread about stocks and ruin that thread too.

Maybe he's not "your boy" and I'll take that comment back, but I do wonder why you apply a different standard to his behavior. Hatred for those who call him names?

No you can't. We need a topic where professional victims can post...and talk amongst themselves.

I just spent 30 minutes reading this whole thread and this was the best and funniest dam part about it!!! TFF

Again.

If I'm going to dig in and defend a position, then it's a defensible position.

EVERY TIME I've taken on the folks on this forum who thrive on the negativity and mayhem, it's been a perfectly defensible position, and I've made my case in a generally reasonable fashion.

The stuff I posted above are perfectly good examples. Art is trying to tear me a new one, getting all weepy and tragic about how I'm such a trainwreck. And yet, all I did was defend perfectly reasonable opinions.

In the process, I humiliated Steelhead, TryMe, etc. When you do THAT, you then better be ready to have them, and their little wannabe's like Castandblast, nipping at your heels forevermore.

And so, they are. And so, it goes.

And yet, I defy any of them to make a case as to why I'm such a dunce for thinking that a 7-08 and .308 do the same damn thing practically speaking... or that a 30-06 is a better general-purpose deer cartridge... etc. They couldn't then, they can't now, and it drives the nuckin' futz, so they've fallen back on a campaign of relentless ankle-biting.

It's also kind of funny how 2muchgun and GeoW got all silent when the example of them trashing that thread on the Classifieds came up.

FACT: there's about a dozen guys here, give or take, who can't handle a disagreement. They are in league with each other, they are relentless, and they are extremely disrespectful to the very idea of a discussion forum.

Another fact: they can kiss my HWA.

FACT...You are a pathetic moron that craves attention...
Dispute that dickhead...

You are [bleep] whacked.

Did you know that's it's no-fair that we collude? What's next? No more hunting and ass chasing trips?

I've never disagreed with him about using the 223 for deer, I've disagreed with him never using one for such.

Blue tape, that one don't need explaining.

He's never used a TSX but expounds well on its ills.

Guess he don't pay attention to other that have different opinions then me that I don't 'attack' because they are based on EXPERIENCE.

Jeff Olsen is the perfect democrat. No doubt about it.

Blaine, the scope mounting thing was that Sitka Deer got all weepy and tragic about how I prefer to mount my scopes- which is generally a bit further back that it seems most people prefer.

Simple as that. I made, and make, no claim that my way of mounting a scope is "right". Just that it is right for ME. But for Art, this was grounds for, again, name calling and generally calling my entire character as a human being into question.

And most of the current crop of guys were right there, doing just what they are doing now.

A pattern of behavior? Oh, yeah...

Yeah yeah...What about ass chasing?

Get a room [bleep].

We need to do a road trip ass hunt, Texas to Montana to Oregon. Maybe we can breed the stupid out of them.......

Then take your toys and go home...

I'm fixed but...I'll fake it...

Fine, I'll make the tricycle motors.

Except that,

Using (say) a 30-06 over a .223 for deer has demonstratable real-world advantages that most of us prefer. And that's all I've ever said. Use what you want. Not complicated, but some would like to make it so...


And, deer see blue so I'll use something else on my rifle, since my blacktail hunting is at very close range. Not complicated, but some would like to make it so...

And, the day I feel I want or need max penetration, I'll load a TSX. And in fact, I've done just THAT, the last two elk seasons for at least one rifle. But most of the time, that kind of penetration isn't necessary for what I'm hunting so I choose to compromise my bullets choice in a different direction. Not complicated, but some would like to make it so...

Anything else you'd like shot down, Skippy? Not complicated shooting 'em down, but some would like to make it so...

Still gotta wonder when you're rubbing yourself with feces, watching Obama nation and contemplating slicing an ear off with a razor do you ever catch yourself for a moment and say 'Wow, I'm really [bleep] up?"

Blaine
Catching on to the victimhood yet? Notice the arguments are changed to make them appear rational... Nowhere does Jeff mention pages of posts begging TryMe to post his 7-08 load... Though it was posted repeatedly. Notice how he makes it sound like the argument was about a 7-08 versus 308 argument, which is not what it was about. In a nutshell, speaking of someone's noggin, it was about getting high-centered on a rational load, claiming it unreasonable for the 7-08 and an unreasonable load for the 308 and all the while guessing from posts and arguing against many that had actually shot the loads.

Hot chambers is not the issue when someone claims the hot chamber is every bit as safe AND that THEY CANNOT BE SUCCESSFUL WITHOUT IT.

Lots of dead deer with 223 pictures. The argument was never what most wanted, liked nor used. It was about one claiming it could/should not be done.

Deer see blue well... That is not the argument... It was how he claimed the blue tape on a muzzle would scare them away... Yet there is plenty of evidence showing deer dead despite blue tape and cold 223 chambers at the same time!

It is not the argument contorted and perverted to its most Milquetoast status. It is about someone incapable of mounting his own scopes giving advice aggressively.

The scope location is what Jeff challenged on shorter eye relief scopes. On a model Seven with a Conquest claiming lots of eye relief he showed a photo of his scope mounted ALL the way back and even a picture of himself holding the mounted rifle... It tells everything... Oh, yes, he was trolling with the scope comment...
art

This is crazy...For at least ONE rifle?
COMPROMISE bullet choice when TSX's are the standard?
This is like Bizarro world...

Blaine
Here is the photo as posted by Jeff showing his combination... Please defend the mounting job. Note the relationship of the raised bolt handle, shroud and scope. Oh, the ear lobe recoil pad massage is special, too.

Do I need to mention how many times he made noise about how great his scopes are? What about the comment that scopes all have black rings around the image and you have to live with it? Or how the black ring reduces parallax because it forces your head to stay centered...

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/2904382/page/2/fpart/149

And this is not by way of inviting you to join a Jeff Bash Fest... I think you got a very wrong impression of Jeff and that is all from here...
art

Bullet choice is about compromises.

No it ain't...It's about killing critters and you apparently don't get it... I've spilled alot of blood via Barnes bullets. Seen abunch of dead critters that succumbed to them too....You?

Oh, this is too easy.

TryMe built an entire thesis on the existance of a load- one that is completely "out to lunch" when compared against any loading manual I've ever seen- to include the one printed by the powder manufacturer.

Then, when asked for the specifics of his load, he got all squirrely and started talking in gibberish and posting pictures of trees and salmon and so on. Well, I want to know, when I've been engaged with someone for 30 pages of internet gack- what's your powder charge? OAL? And why, pray tell, is this question suddenly so taboo?

Since over 70% of the Campfire agrees with my position about hunting with a round in the chamber, I'll leave it at that, your distortions notwithstanding. Could I kill a deer with cold chamber? Probably. Would it cost me some of the deer that I've killed? YES. Categorically, yes.

I never, ever, ever said that you can't kill deer with a .223. That would be stupid. I've killed two deer with a .22LR, for Pete's sake! I simply have said, over and over, that I'll use something else, and said why. Again, the vast majority of folks agree with my position so I'll leave it at that.

Deer see blue... well, they do. I hunt deer at bowhunting ranges; just the nature of how and where I hunt them. I'll choose a different color, SINCE THEY MAKE OTHER COLORS!! It isn't complicated... unless you are trying to make a big internet stink out of it. Oh wait... you and yours, ARE trying to make big internet stinks whenever possible. My bad.

As to scope mounting, that's just you being wierd, Art. All I've ever claimed is that my scopes are mounted correctly FOR ME. And they are. I could care less about how others mount theirs, and I would NEVER presume to call someone names and cast aspersions on their very character as a human over it.

As you did, Art.

Over and over, the same pattern: a few guys have their pet dogmas. Someone DARES peep up and say, uh... I'd do that another way. And all hell breaks loose. Most guys either don't peep up, or just vanish once the [bleep]-flinging starts. I don't. If my position is reasonable, I'll defend it. And that drives you guys NUTS. And since I've essentially beaten your (collectively speaking) butts a few times, you have grudges, and so now I cannot even post a question about scope value without someone showing up and ruining the thread.

You should be ashamed, Art. You really should. Steelhead, Bart, VAnimrod... those guys are just wired that way, they can't help it. You are acting like this by choice.

Next

Blaine can choose to defend or not defend that mounting job, as he chooses.

But I'll take issue with the very premise of this post- that a guy can't mount a scope where it suits him without some internet blowhard (you, Art) jumping him over it. Especially when you've never even laid eyes or hands on that particular scope (which is an odd duck) much less mounted one.

That scope is exactly where it needs to be, to work right for me. How it works for you, on a computer screen thousands of miles away, is not relevant to ANYTHING. Unless, of course, you have an agenda- which you do- of trying to knock me any chance you get.

As to the black around the image comment, I rebutted that very clearly and you completely failed to address the reality I proved. Your position is not logically coherant, and I showed that. You can squeel about it, continue to say how stupid I am, but the fact remains you dodged the whole issue in most cowardly fashion.

So again, Art, what is so wrong about me mounting a scope where it works best for me?

By the way, I was shooting long range twice last week (twice more than you, I'd guess, correct me if I'm wrong)... and guess what Art? The "black around the image" DOES help keep a guy centered behind the scope, thus minimizing the potential for parallax problems, with a non-AO scope. If you choose to mention this again, please be specific as to how I'm wrong here. Hint: you won't.

Forgot to mention the above were from 'cold' chambers.

*** You are ignoring this user ***

First and only, but arguing with clueless morons just tickles him and wastes my time.

Two dinks killed in an area where guys get 6 deer tags, and the success rate is over 60%, and people pay thousands of dollars to hunt because the hunting is so good, and the animals are so clueless. Yawn.

Show us the pic of the buck that saw you and you DIDN'T shoot.

By the way- where I hunt in Eastern Oregon or when I hunted in Colorado I'd wear blue without a second thought. And I've said that before. For most hunting, it probably doesn't matter. Hell, it probably don't matter even where I hunt. But why use blue, when there's black right next to it on the shelf?

Or, you've been confronted with your own BS and can't see a way out, so it's on to the name calling and ankle-biting.

Predictable, and characteristic for the breed.

Bye, Art. I will never, ever come after YOU. Will you make the same promise? If so, then we will never, ever have a problem again.

By the way, read another article today detailing how this year's deficit is primarily a BUSH deficit.

But... let's just ignore that. It's too... what.. provocative?

'Cold' chambers

Cold







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"Since over 70% of the Campfire agrees with my position about hunting with a round in the chamber, I'll leave it at that, your distortions notwithstanding."

Was there a poll?

Am curious about something - you keep saying that this particular scope was an odd duck. That "others didn't have their hands on it" so who exactly do you know at the Zeiss skunkworks that got you such a custom creation? Why is it you are so quick to KNOW that absolutely no one has had a scope like the one you have? Must be a custom one-off scope. Didn't realize real estate sold so well.



Also guessing that since Art has been known to carve a stock or 2 from the blank - he might just know a little something about proper rifle set up.

And finally - are dink eyes different than hog eyes? Is there some evolutionary change in the deer that has them ignoring blue - until they get big enough (according to your standards)? I didn't realize antler growth affected the rods and cones of the blacktail.

Yes.

Link?

Loving how Alaska is easy hunting for someone who has never been, course spouting out her ass is a common trend.

If soothsaying only paid in gold....



Jeff, which "some" are mounted "way far back"?

Teal,

That 1.8-5.5 Conquest is almost 1.5" longer than my 3.5x10 Conquest. Or a Leupold 4.5x10. It's a long scope. And, while the eye relief is more or less fixed, it has a clear "sweet spot". And, where it's mounted puts it right in that sweet spot- FOR ME. Not saying it's right for anyone else; in fact it probably is wrong. So? What's the problem here?

... and no, real estate does NOT pay that well... grin...

DAMN! SH---Not that I ever doubted BUT you really did unload 2 into the Halibut. No wonder Gators always kick my Gamecock azzzzzzz.

Nice!

Guess the flood of guys flocking down to Oregon from Alaska to hunt our 14% buck tag will kick my ass, eh?

Or wait.. the flood of guys goes from other states TO Alaska... my bad...

Nice

Who the [bleep] would want to go to Oregon, that's funny right there.

My problem is you keep claiming that your scope is different than what anyone else had. Just wondering why you think your particular Zeiss was the only one in existence. I mean you sure seem positive no one else has 1.8-5.5 conquest.

Several of the scopes you pictured in that HS thread are mounted as far back, or nearly so, as the rings will allow them.

Which is what caught me a raft of [bleep]- some from you.

Which ones?

Because black tape and black rings in the scope get you this:



Ass shot deer.

http://newsbusters.org/polls/who-responsible-exploding-budget-deficit-30172

Why should Art be ashamed of having a fully functional BS detector?
I'll tell you how I'm wired...And Scott...And most here that ignore your idiocy Jeff...I'm wired to hunt and kill to feed my family and to enjoy what God has provided me... You are wired to talk...Pure and simple..The problem is that you are a hard headed jerk that ignores facts and questions that you don't like...Since you like statistics...I'll bet that 99% of the Campfire thinks you are full of hot air and Field and Stream knowledge....First hand ain't your deal apparently...

By the way Bart, if Chuck is still around he's catching 62grs of TSX right in the face.

Guys flock to Alaska because it is a new and exciting experience. I'm blessed to be able to do almost on a daily basis what guys like you dream about.

We do have good deer hunting, but the big ones (just like in your area) must be worked for and skill must be involved. You would crap your pants attempting one of our mountains. Guaranteed. We also don't have many guys like you to bring down the success rate. If it's so easy, come on up and show us your skills. It would be very very humbling for you. (I can't believe all of your other hunting experiences haven't humbled you yet)

Jeff, you obviously have some sort of [bleep] disorder to keep doing what you are doing. Maybe some day you'll finally "make it" and be accepted by guys who do what you try so hard to do. Keep trying......

Bart -

Don't denigrate F&S - it's more like this:

None of YOU do.

And Sitka Deer doesn't.

But I do, and I mounted it in the perfect place for me. I would expect you to do the same- mount it where it works best for you. And I would hope that you put as much care and thought into where that position is, as I do. And I would expect that if someone who didn't own that scope or have your rifle in his hands or LIVE IN YOUR BODY tried to tell you you were sub-human for mounting it that way...

That you'd defend yourself from that. No?

I think Chuck has been turned into chili....Larry is still around though....He watched me clear cedar trees...Smart deer that Larry...

Well, if a gunsmith claimed as you do about the mounting of the scope and then talks about optical issues and also claims to know what a good fitting rifle feels like because he was once fitted for a shotgun, I wouldn't pay him to do an FFL transfer, much less take his advice on what I wanted to know. That's the thing.

How do you know, I mean absolutely know that none of us have experience with that scope?

Then Larry is getting one right in the caboose (aka JO rim job)....

Here's the other thing.

Usually when someone posts that they can't handle it here and are going to step away from the fire, there is a long list of people coming out to tell them to "hang in there", "things change" etc.

You've mentioned leaving - not one person asked you to stay. Not one person has publicly mentioned that they wanted you here. In fact I haven't seen any really come to your aid to defend your position. (some like Blaine have tried to defend you but not your positions)

It's what's not being said round here that is the loudest for me.

Perhaps you might think on that - realize you aren't as dead right as you want to believe you are.

22k members and you are claiming it's being run by about 8. If you were so damn correct, those 22k would be able to easily shout down those 8. It isn't happening because you aren't as right as you think you are.

I hope its not one without the mag box....the [bleep]' crosshairs could be in an X for all I know.


I got lots of schitt around here, some don't have barrels or scopes..

Don't get that tarnish out of that white metal with steel wool and oil either...

Brad wants Jeff...

Yeah? Cool.

Tonight I fed my family blacktail backstrap, and peas and strawberries and a salad from the garden.

Funny thing, the backstrap was from my buck from TWO years ago. It got buried under all the meat I put in the freezer last hunting season.

So I can relate to feeding your family like that.

How much of a family are you feeding, Bart? We are just 4, two daughters 11 and 14. You have wife, kids?

Why do you ask Jeff? Be honest now...I wouldn't want to think that you are taking a cheap shot at me...

All I know is the wrong person got the brain tumor.

You can damn skippy that

Nice. It's posts like that that show who you really are although you try to act all sweet and righteous afterwards.

You don't fool me or most others.

You gotta have a brain before a tumor can find it. He's safe.

I've seen the freezer. Damn thing is packed to the gills -

I don't know what a gunsmith would say about where I mounted that scope. I don't care, though I'd be curious. I know that rifle. It's on it's second barrel, I've killed most of my deer with it. I know where I want the scope. How hard is that? You think I didn't slide that scope around before I put the top ring on?

I don't absolutely know if any of the guys currently here on this thread have experience with that scope. I am guessing they do not, since we've been talking about it a bunch lately and nobody has said boo about it. Correct me if I'm wrong.

What the hell, Bart? You brought up being wired to feeding your family and accused me of lacking the... wiring... to feed mine. Just responding to your mention of family.

I guess, I assumed you had one from what you said..? If not, my bad... I guess.

I think you did take a shot at me... I think you are a coward for not being truthful. When you take the high road,(your high road) it just verifies for everyone that knows you and me what kind of a person you are. I've said that you are hard headed but I'm gonna revise that...You are a scared little man that knows little and spews alot... You are dangerous to the Campfire...

Dude... seriously... I will admit that you seem like a hard person to be married to, so I had my doubts, but you hammered me about feeding my family! What the hell! If your family is so taboo, keep mine out of it!

Quote me....Show me where I "hammered" you? Your problem is that you weren't hammered enough throughout your life...And if you were,you weren't smart enough to take heed...

I apply the same standard to everyone. All I have seen is a gang of posters following JO around and pissing on his threads. That just isn't justified, period. To be honest, I am surprised that you defend it.

All I see JO do is state his opinions and ideas--albeit politically incorrect ones for the Campfire, and then respond in kind when he is attacked. It is the same crap I have seen on the Campfire and Shooters before it for the last 12 years.

How DARE you!!!!!!!!!

The post won't come up. I'll make a point to watch and see if my opinion changes.

Regardless, even if he is what you say, isn't it still better to just ignore him?

Blaine
Popped right up for me...

I now have Jeff on ignore... The first and only poster I have ever even considered putting on ignore. At first I thought he was naive and extremely inexperienced, but then it changed to outright stupid and now I have to think he is stupid, extremely inexperienced and trolling.

So stupid in fact I cannot even consider discussing anything with him. His version of the "sweet spot" in his scope is indefensible. It is not usable by any normal shape human. The black ring and the parallax control features are breath-taking.

Your blessing is not being sought by me; your decision is your own, but the idea of jumping into a fray to defend a troll should be something you consider carefully.

I have swapped many PMs with Jeff and tried to explain various obvious things to him... He does not take advice, at all.

And he salts his food heavily before he even tastes it...

I believe it was Astor that took prospective hirees, up and coming employees and managers to lunch just to watch how they ate. Rash decision makers with stubborn streaks always salt their food before tasting it, or so Astor said.
art

Still can't beat the enjoyment of watching a Christian go to bat for an abortion loving, gun grabbing voting, atheist idiot.

You can't make this [bleep] up.

Yeah Scott,

Apparently plenty of those "Christians" also voted for that [bleep] devil (who has the "qualities" you describe) that is sitting in the White House right now also.

Some people just like defending stuff ya' know how that is don't you?

A mean dog bites a kid and they defend the dog.

Some punk kills a cop and they defend the punk.

Our resident dufus, Jeff_O (short for Obama) initiates threads on the Fire for no reason other than to provoke controversy and Blaine defends the troll.......

Hard to figure ain't it?

Nothing you'd want to hear nor absorb into that lump of meat on your shoulders, but it's already been said by a couple of us.




That's the problem right there...........We don't care that your curious.




That's been tried as well, some 20,000 times and you've still proven your ability to keep yacking.

You're like a puss-filled boil on this forum that needs to be popped and had I been a moderator here, I'd have pulled the trigger on ya over a year ago.

You're wrong on every topic that you attempt to discuss, simply because you lack the knowledge, experience, or ability to learn from others who are much better versed on the subject matter.
When real, solid information is presented, you immediately discount that to go on your rant of poor me.

Your grasp of economics is only rivaled by your understanding of stock fitting and scope placement. Your list of achievements falling short of the average fry cook are staggering, but that won't stop you from being the self-proclaimed expert on any subject matter at hand you choose to invite yourself in on.

Jeff, it is stupid schit like that....you claim to take the high road, and just want to get along with everybody.

I have a hard time believing that someone is this stupid, but seeing is believing.

Maybe Paul was right.

Is Blaine the dude that brags about shooting 1k and then gut shoots his deer? How does that work?

It appears he only takes the high road when the low road meets an obstacle.

So Bart says something about you and the fact that you talk rather than do and that's a shot at your family how?

On the other hand, you blatantly take shots at Bart's family and then cover it with some ridiculous implication that you don't know his situation.

Where's Blaine. Defend that Bullshiat.

Everyone knows exactly what you are, what your positions are and where you stand. Your mealy mouthed sycophantic whining is an irritant to everyone on the campfire.

Wading in on Bart's family clearly demonstrates exactly what you are all about. All of your sniveling about others comments and the implication that you're so above all of that are epitomized by your bringing Bart's family into it. I suspect there are more than a few who would love to meet you in person.

Jeff O is just a guy trolling for dudes on the 'net...

Yes it's provocative but the problem is that it's unnecessarily so.

Because first, it sets up a straw man argument that it's *this* year's deficit that is the focus of concern, as opposed to the massive upcoming spending that we are *fully committed to*. We've swiped the card already. At the same time it fails to account that Obama's been in office only 5 months when making the comparison, so excluding the spending that we're fully committed to but which has not yet been executed is clearly not a fair comparison. The spending we are committed to is unprecedented by any measure. It's pure, transparent sophistry to ignore the that spending, even if using the White House's numbers instead of CBO numbers.

In fact, Obama has been criticized for the delayed spending by both sides - ie. if the spending is for emergency stimulation of the economy in this recession, then why is it that the bulk of the expenditures aren't made until the following years (that goes against the definition of "stimulus" and starts looking more like "subsidies" or "pork"). The delay in the massive spending also plays against the hysterical "emergency" nature of the bills' push through congress.

Oh, and of course the health care overhaul is on the horizon now too for Obama, and isn't accounted for in the projected spending. I think everyone knows that one's not going to be cheap, either...

I couldn't stomach reading the entire thread so looked to see where it had gone. Not sure what has been said up to this point but this post is a very good one for me to have landed on. Well put Steve.

This may have already been said also and apologies if that's the case but; I think whatever blame Bush et al (and there's been a Democratic congress sitting there for awhile remember) can shoulder is in giving Obama et al the opportunity to pull off this fiscal travesty.

I don't know how many of you know who Jim Marshall is but he made one of the most infamous plays in NFL history when he picked up a 49ers (Marshall was a Viking) fumble and raced 66 yards into...the wrong endzone. If you want to believe Bush dropped the ball, fine, go ahead. Obama his picked up this fumble and is racing in the wrong direction and the consequences could be much more catastrophic than giving up a safety in a football game.

guyandrifle,

I won't argue your conclusion- that Obama has picked up Bush's fumble and is running with it. That's completely reasonable way to look at it.

My guess is, we'll have plenty to blame Obama for when it's all said and done. And while THIS year's budget isn't particularly attributable to him, by the same logic, he'll be accountable for the 2012 budget- when he's handing the wheel off to his successor.

My point is, in 2012 when he's handing it off, Obama will certainly get the blame for whatever state the economy is in, as well as for that budget. The gentleman of the Campfire will not be blaming whoever is coming in, just a few months into their term, especially if the incoming prez is a Republican.

That is the purpose of this thread. Everywhere I turned everyone around here was calling this deficit this year an Obama thing. Mostly, it isn't. Mostly, it's a Bush thing.

mtnman1, with all the work you did quoting ME, you conveniently neglected to quote Bart's original post on the subject. Coincidence? Kind of doubt that.

Bart said:

"I'll tell you how I'm wired...And Scott...And most here that ignore your idiocy Jeff...I'm wired to hunt and kill to feed my family and to enjoy what God has provided me..."

The obvious implication being that I'm not wired to hunt and kill and feed my family. Which is incorrect. So the dude wants to talk about feeding our families, I obliged him.

Keep in mind, I put some guy called Bart185 on "ignore" about 18 months ago. And I only started really trying to participate in the Hunters Campfire a few months ago... at which point I noticed this guy Bro Bart or whatever it is. Took a while to connect 'em, because this new Bart guy was trying, it seemed, to be a lot less of an azzhole than Bart185 had been.

Long story short, I don't know squat about the guy. He says I'm not wired to feed my family, I'll fire right back that I have a full freezer of meat THAT I KILLED, that we ate dinner based on our garden and my hunting last night, and oh by the way BART... how big a family YOU feeding? That's fair. If it caused him to poop his pants, well, that's what he gets for bringing my family into this and saying I'm not wired to feed them.

Kind of curious how Scott (Steelhead) does feeding HIS family, too. Him, I know damn well to be divorced... so Bart's statement is just stoopid right on the face of it.

Jeff, I enjoy tugging on Bart as much as anyone but you will never see me cross that line you are tripping over. You flat [bleep] know you went after Bart using his family. You should have your azz banned for bringing family into the fight. Continue to play stupid.... it works for you.

no, it isn't. not even close. the trillion dollar porculus, and the other bastard progeny whelped by Obama out of Queen Nancy's troops, are his and his alone. As are the unprecedented deficits, each larger than any on Bush's watch, stretching out for a decade into the future.

Wouldn't it be nice, for you, if you were right and could defend your position logically, politely, and so on?

Thing is, you cannot.

That scope is mounted PERFECTLY for me. With my head on the stock where it naturally wants to be, my eye is exactly in the sweet spot of that scope- maximum field of view, full image, and in the most forgiving part of the eye box.

It was mounted satisfactorily for another Campfire member who has shouldered that rifle, though I'm going to have him do it again under more controlled circumstances and then ask him to report back more specifically what he sees.

That's MY defense, Art. You'd like to call that indefensible, but the reality is, you chose to be a rude azzhole to someone about where they mounted a scope, from thousands of miles away... with a model of scope you've never so much as seen... on a stock you were obviously not intimatly familiar with... and a shooter who's body you do not inhabit.

So who's position is indefensible, here, Art?

As to the black around the image, I've boxed you in on this one before, and it's easy enough to do, so I'll do it again:

A Leupold scope is variable eye relief; it shortens as the power goes up.

Therefore, there are two, and two only, things that a guy could do if his goal is to NEVER see any black around the image.

1. Chase the image forward, moving the head forward on the stock, as magnification goes up.

2. Put their head in the one spot where, for example, a 2.5x8 BARELY will give full field of view at all magnifications.

Those are the ONLY WAYS to never see black around the image with a Leupold 2.5x8. Anyone with a Leupold 2.5x8 can play along here, and I encourage them to do so. And so, Art, here's the problem with what you are saying.


If you use method #1, you are NOT maintaining anything approximating a consistant cheek weld. You are chasing all up and down the stock.

If you use method #2, which would be to have a consistant cheek weld way far forward in the one spot where you get full field at all power settings, then you have completely compromised the low-power eye box of your Leupold. Try it and see, dear reader. Put your head in that one spot where, just barely, you get a full field, no black, at full power, and it stays full as you crank the scope DOWN.

Now not how "squirrely" the eye box is. You are at the far forward edge of the eye box envelope. Now, scoot your head back a bit on the stock, and note how suddenly you've got a generous, gorgeous, forgiving eye box (at low power). That generous eyebox is a big part of the reason to even own a Leupold scope!!

So which is it you are advocating, Art? That folks slide their cheek up and down the stock with magnification, or that they compromise the low-power eyebox of their scope dramatically? Those are your ONLY choices, if you are "never going to see black around the image" as you say.

Finally, as to the black around the image helping keep a guy's head centered behind the scope. This is just a comment, by me, of one small nice thing about maintaining a consistant cheek weld and letting the image get some black around it- it's very easy to stay centered behind the scope. A nice little bonus.

For ME, since I'm only crankin' it up at long ranges, I find that the black helps me stay consistantly centered, and thus minimize parallax on my non-AO scopes. I do this all the time, Art. I did it twice last week- shooting out to 600+ yards with the 2.5x8 on my 30-06, for example. I challenge you to do the following: pull your head out of the dark brown place it resides, put a Leupold on full power, move your head back a bit to get some black around the image, and then report back to me how I'm wrong.

Hint: you won't be able to any more now than you could earlier, and so you will resort to name-calling and accusing me of being a food-salter or some such nonsense.

Your game is weak, Art. Your tragic tone, is really quite comical viewed from a bit of distance.

Of course, since BART is the one who first brought family into it, by your logic he should be banned?



The dude wanted to talk about feeding families- two things I'm real proud of. My family, and my ability to feed them. So when I move the conversation forward by describing how I fed mine, and asked how he fed his (that HE brought up), it's MY fault?

That's ridiculous.

I might have used too many words for you in the last post. Let's narrow it down a little.... ok?



Anyone that has been on the fire within the last year knows about Bart's situation, are you claiming you didnt? You took a cheap shot at Bart and his family. I didnt see Bart make any shot towards your family.

When you can express how Bart's comment is in any way an insult to your family or about your family relationship we'll have something to talk about... Until then my comments stand. To cap it off, now you're bringin' Steely's personals into it... Bottom line, you are a sniveling little man, who tries to play the wounded whimpering dolt when you feel everyone's "piling on" but are quite happy to use the very same behavior you whimper about whenever it suits you.

I've yet to see you offer advice or anything else of value since you arrived and what you do spew forth is recognized by all as pure garbage. With all that, you want to argue with folks that have been doing this stuff their whole lives. Most have forgotten more than you'll ever know and it generally comes from experience rather than speculation.

Why don't you just take your bullshiat somewhere else. I think everyone at the fire is tired of listening to your crap.

He didn't make any cracks about your wife or kids, and you brought his into the converstion.

Really shows the person you are. I make a crack every now and then ok most times I post, but not about anyone's family. That is sacred ground that shouldn't be walked on, and you stomped all over it.

BTW, on every Leupold I've EVER owned, I'v never had trouble seeing full view on all ranges of the power spectrum. EVER!

He said that I wasn't wired to feed my family. How is that not bringing family into it? And how is it so evil to then ask him what he fed HIS family, considering I'd just FED my family with the fruits of my labors that very night?

The double standard here is shocking. As another example...

I take it, you guys agree with me, then, that Paul Walukewitz is a punk for saying:

"You are a load your mother should have swallowed!"

By your logic, he should be banned for saying that? Yeah?

Jeff O has a decent point about Bush and the Republican Congress owning up to their share of the deficit. Funding the Medicare prescription drug program and the Iraq war solely through deficit spending was not responsible. My guess is that there would still be a Republican majority in Congress today if they hadn't spent money like drunken sailors while they controlled the House, Senate, and White house through 2006. IMO the lack of fiscal responsibility and discipline is one of the primary reasons for the Republican majority downfall. Democrats didn't win because they had better ideas, they won because Republicans failed to be fiscally responsible like they promised they would be. The problem I see facing us is that Obama and company are going to make Republicans look like amateurs by comparison when it comes to running up red ink. The CBO projection numbers are what they are.

As usual JO is changing the playing filed to suit himself. JO claimed Bart was insulting his family - obviously untrue. Now he wants to switch to Bart allegedly criticizing JO's ability to provide and that's not correct either. Bart just mentioned his own capabilities, leaving conclusions to the reader, but JO leaps in to be a victim.

Wonder what he'll change next?

We need a place for professional victims to post.

Sure, if you're ok with it I'm ok with it.

For a guy that can't spell... that Walukewitz guy sure is one smart fella...

*** You are ignoring this user ***

Bad thing happened when I toggled the post... I nearly choked on my coffee. So I will have to stop doing that. Read a paragraph or two and it actually made me laugh that he thinks I would care enough to respond.

Unfathomable stupidity like that should hurt...

Once again, always a victim. He wasn't insulting your family. I'm not sticking up for Bart, he can do that on his own quite well, but I won't stand for the that schit you're trying to pull.

I'd say something to him too if he insulted your family, espically your kids, but he didn't. He's smarter than that.

I'm glad you caught some of the shrapnel of what I was saying but you still didn't quite catch the brunt of it. Obama didn't just pick up something dropped by someone else, he's RUNNING AWAY with it. That's not some minor nuance to be overlooked but rather the point many are already so incensed over. The spending of THIS administration is demonstrably and measurably unprecedented. Why would anyone want to wait 'til 2012 to cry wolf? How late in someone's draw bringing up their gun to you do you wait to shoot? After you've already taken a couple to the chest seems a pretty impotent time to start having issues with the person doing the shooting.

What Obama is doing now is just that, what OBAMA is doing NOW.

With respect to what Bart said,

I take great pride in my family.

I take great pride in how I FEED my family. We own 16 acres, we have a flock of over 20 chickens, we have a garden of almost an acre, we buck up and buy organics when we can, and the ONLY red meat my kids eat, is what I kill.

And this has been true for their whole lives.

So, if some internet idiot takes a shot at my abilitly to feed my family, they just lobbed me a patsy serve... and they can expect it to come back their way, harder.

And if that person for some reason DOESN'T want to talk about how we feed our families... what in the hell are they doing bringing it up in an internet pissing match?

Bart was stupid, and you guys defending him are being even stupider trying to turn this into something it ain't.

But, what he's doing now is based on Bush's "policies", and based on the mess Bush left behind.

ANY president coming it, would have had to continue the TARP bailouts that Bush initiated.

Given that our last Repub prez was not shy about signing stimulus bills, I have to think McCain would have likewise put forth some sort of stimulus package.. or signed one that was put on his desk.

So again, I'm not contesting that Obama is likely to spend money like a drunken sailor; that's what they've all done, since Reagan. I'm just contesting the notion that this year's deficit is solely, or even mostly, attributable to Obama. It isn't. Let's just be fair about this, then we'll be fair about bashing the guy for what IS his own fault <g>. There should be plenty of that.

Even the Heritage Foundation had to say that this year's deficit was something shared by Bush and Obama.

Hidden truths,

The Birth of Jeff_O

Bart never mentioned your family... You know exactly what you were sayin' when you brought up Bart's family. You're a whinin' biatch.

Go the [bleep] away...

You took an obvious shot at Bart.. Everybody knows that.

70% of this forum thinks your the biggest idiot on here... Does that make it right? (grin)

Look, I get where you are coming from if your specific point of contention is that ALL of this is Obama and NONE of this is about Bush. Granted, there are some that try to sell that and if you were expressly trying to rebutt that then so be it. However, this notion that if Obama isn't completely to blame he is completely innocent (and I'm talking about the right here/right now) just doesn't hold up under scrutiny. The numbers are just too large. There are many MANY Republican "conservatives" that were nothing short of enraged at much of Bush's spending habits. Bush spending wasn't like some dark secret, it was an enormous wedge between him and a very large chunk of his party.

Now, having said that, there isn't a single one of those critics I cited that thinks for one second that a Bush deficit outlook would have the kind of red ink on it Obama's does, and they'd be right. Take a good look at this and get back to us. Don't just kneejerk it either. It's not complementary towards Bush and isn't meant to be but when you put the Obama numbers up it's simply shocking.

http://blog.heritage.org/2009/03/24/bush-deficit-vs-obama-deficit-in-pictures/

Guy, love the analogy.



It's the easiest thing in the world, to attack conservatives by beating the paper-mache Bush figure, and its as popular here as in the streets of our enemies. But they should realize, that few conservatives hold Bush as a model conservative, especially regarding spending issues. Only in one area - steadfastness against terrorism - is Bush really beloved by me and many conservatives.

Hell, he started out with a slap in the face to conservatives - remember his bid to introduce "compassionate conservatism", as if conservatives until then had been lacking in compassion. That played right along with an unfortunate stereotype of his own team for his own personal gain, and even worse that trick doesn't work against libs (or radical Islam, as Obama will learn). Of course it didn't work, and helped to solidy the stereotype just as it simultaneously set him and other conservatives up for the usual oxymoron-themed jokes.

Still, though Bush isn't really very conservative in most areas and spent way too much, Obama makes him look fiscally conservative by comparison, and I hate to see misleading interpretations of the figures, even if its in defense of the "compassionate conservative".

So once more the damning graph and I'll bow out:

Remember, though, that even the Heritage Foundation says that this year's budget is a shared responsibility between Bush and Obamam. That had to have them choking, but it's just the truth.

To the extent that the budget in the next couple years is bloated due to the wars, TARP, and the various bailouts made necessary by events that transpired IN BUSH's TERM, I think it's at least arguable that Bush bears some responsibility for that, too.

You guys haven't known me very long. I'm an equal-opportunity politician basher <G>. I bashed Clinton, I bashed Bush, I thought Reagan was the antichrist for ballooning the deficit (to what... 200 billion? That sure looks good now!).

Anyway, just because I voted for Obama doesn't mean I won't be bashing him too. His socialized medicine scares crap out of me, though I have to agree with him- what we have going now is a total disaster in many ways, too.

The only reason I started this thread was, yes, to be somewhat provocative. What was I hoping to provoke? Some acknowledgement around here by certain people that this ISN'T properly described as the Obama deficit. He did not just take office, and suddenly spend so much money that he put us in a trillion-dollar hole this year. BUSH did that, basically.

As predicted, and as before, you can't logically rebut anything I said so you just call names.

That scope can't be mounted perfectly if you are getting the black ring - that's the point.

Jeff - we all know you took a shot at Bart's family situation and he didn't even come close to doing that to yours.

Be a man and admit it - you are wrong - even if you don't admit it for the 1000 other BS things you posted - admit you were wrong to go after Bart's situation like that.

That graph would mean something if the National Debt didn't jump from $5.7 Trillion to over $11 Trillion on Bush's watch.

Yeah Obama is an idiotic, free spending, wishful thinking liberal but lets be honest, he took his cue from Bush.


Dems, Republicans, one legged French whores,.....I can't tell the difference between any of 'em.

Let's be real honest, Obama took nothing from Bush. He is a free spending, pinko socialist and would be regardless of his predecessor.

What are you trying to say here rrroae? At a glance it almost appears like having someone witness a murder gives him a pass for going out and taking part in a massacre. It's hard to imagine that was really your intent but look back at your post and I'm sure you could see where it could be taken like that. How could any "cue" by Bush somehow be spun into making the rampant spending by Obama any less outrageous?

Look at the numbers.

Compare the percentage increase in spending from Clinton to Bush and then from Bush to Obama's projected totals.

Then maybe we can look at how Bush doubled the size of the Dept of Ed(most worthless Dept there is), pushed Medicare spending thru the roof, formed another redundant intelligence agency(DHS), rebuilt Muslim countries and compare that to Obama's wet dreams(La La land). If you take the partisanship out of the equation, you'll see they're all slimy, corrupt, incompetent politicians who are liars and thieves. Bush can kiss my azz just like Obama can.



They all need a good roshambo right in the nuts.

There seems to have been a miscommunication. This isn't about giving Bush a pass on anything or, in a more general sense, politicians. We have similar points of view in fact on that matter.

No, the point is you can be roshamboed by a girlscout or you can be roshamboed by Godzilla. It isn't that your nuts won't hurt, they will, but rather how much damage are we talking about one vs the other?

Put simply, anything Bush can screw up Obama can screw up lots LOTS worse and there's more than a little evidence (already, and we're WAY early in this) that he's well on his way to doing just that.

Nail on the head.

you can stop right there.....that graph means a great deal. It means that Obama's deficit in year one...which will grow as the parasites feast, will be about what Bush's was in his whole second term. And Obama's next year will be bigger. And in the rosiest of projections, we won't see a budget deficit as small as Bush's worst one for the foreseeable future, if ever.
If you don't grasp the significance of that difference, you BDS must still be active.

Gack, gack, gack..... you took a shot, everyone here but you saw it. Stop the spin game and admit you did it, you might even want to offer an apology. Be a man or continue to play a victim!

At least you can find a use for a one legged French whore.

I've looked at these pics about 100 times. Got to say I've hunted and fished in a bunch of places to include Alaska, Canada and South America and felt fairly good about my history until I saw your pics. I'm really envious of your hunts.

David

Poor kids will never know what a good beef steak is like. Also, buying organic is a huge waste of money.

Reminds me of my aunt and uncle that live in Portland. Nice people but misinformed by all the liberal media and other crazes over there.

We should all be thankful we're not from Oregon and be very sympathetic, although it would be nice if he was more open minded to learning from people that know better. A person would at least hope a fellow hunter would have pro-hunter views.

One screwed up place, you can't even pump your own gas.

What the graph shows me is the precise time Bush declared war on terrorism and the axis of evil. Wars aren't won by not spending.

The frightening thing is the muslim that was elected that now holds the office of POTUS, most likely unconstitutionally, a member of one of the most dangerous axis of evil in the world today and one of our most bitter enemys ever.

And to face the realization that millions of Americans supported this impostor.

I'm not sure hitler had it so good!

Maybe this is another pot-shot at Olsen as he calls it, I don't know but one thing I try to refrain from doing is getting into drawn out arguments with minorities and/or idiots. I do not understand them and they do not understand me so it's just a waste of both our time.

g

lol

I liked that.

The highest standard of health care in the world is a total disaster? I can't wait for Canadian/European style rationing.

You are wrong...You are so [bleep] wrong...Don't EVER assume anything about what I post means something different than the WORDS!!! I will tell you to your face EXACTLY what I mean and I did...
Is it really possible that this can be true? Who here didn't know that Rick changed my handle? I posted a thank you to him right after he did it....
I'm a little confused here...Jeff...Are you really that stupid or do you think that the rest of the regulars are stupid enough to believe you?

You are a LIAR....The worst kind of LIAR...You believe your own lies...I could go on but I'm beating a dead horse...

Think it's the latter...

I'm kinda embarrassed for him really...

I'll drink horse piss before I accept an apology from that pathological liar....

I really could care less who's deficit it is or who's fault it is.
But that Bush's Fault crap is starting to ware pretty damn thin.
Especially since Obama all most double the deficit with his out of control spending in less than a year. Even a moron knows when you are this deep in a hole you got to quit digging. Obama is obviously not a complete moron so I can only assume he is bent on destroying this country. The damn economy is has gone in sh..house and his answer is to spend more money not just more money but more money at a accelerated pace. The only jobs he has created are government jobs which count for nothing being that they only cost the tax payer more of their hard earned money.
But he has manged to kill lots of jobs in the private sector.
And he hasn't even gotten started yet taxes on the wealthy and corporations, Socialized health care will kill even more job. In the mean time government will be growing larger increasing the burden on the tax payers. And as if that wasn't bad enough Obama and his treasonous pack of scumbags,are devaluing our dollar and our products by leaps and bounds ever day. And some of you think Bush left us in a hell of a mess, You ani't seen nothing yet.
Obama, his ilk are domestic terrorists and enemies of the Republic and it's people.

Pat

Budweiser would be close enough...

Well, I wouldnt go out and stock up on horse piss as I suspect the village idiot will never man up and admit it.

Just watched an old video 2003 on Fox news Where Bush cried out that we needed to get a hold on Fannie May an Freddie concerning mortgages to those whom could not possibly maintain payment, but alas the Dem Congress shut down that idea. Funny thing was the Fox news had the bottom scroll running, at the bottom of the broadcast screen, a prompt on N Koreas Nuke program and made mention of stopping it..Little Too late!!

Obongo is just the icing on the death of the American cake.

No things will get very bad but it's gonna take more than a scrawny tyrannical closet muslem kill my country.

Pat

Yep. +P level dumbphucks like JO are the extra required. And we've got a serious overabundance of those.

This can only be portrayed as dumping more gas on the fire!!

I see JO has captained yet another Train Wreck.

Quite a portfolio he has........

JO, you know I've never come down on you too much, at least not like most of the people here, especially the ones who got sore arms from pattin' their own backs. Not my style whatsoever, and I have even stuck up for you once or twice. Except for the [bleep] penguin thread. But you're makin' it harder to do so day by day. Ain't meanin' to jump on the mean spirited bandwagon or nothin', but I'm convinced, finally, that you are a loser. Your voting for Bammy wasn't it, even though to me that showed you were dumb, but your actions and dialog since have proved you in the wrong. Even though I'd write of the Democrate stuff as just different opinions, the intentional flaming is uncalled for, and is very telling!! It wasn't the usual bellyachers who said so, that had any influence on my opinion either, it was just you !!!!

Prediction:

He'll bail on this discussion for the time being because too many nails have been hit squarely on the head. He'll then return in a couple days with some lame third grade response for all the big meanies here and claim he's been "busy" Outdoors cutting firewood in a deep ditch and shooting his infamously scoped model 7 "longrange".......sound about right?

That he's a douche of High Order is a given.

That he's EASILY attained his "fame" is The Obvious.......

And to think, JeffO taking the high road as far as mothers are concerned......

Some have witnessed the perpetual victim and his contradictions; the walking/typing azzhat.

Bart.

You brought up how you and SH are so wired to feed your family, and I am not.

If feeding your family is something you are so damn sensitive about, my advice to you would be to NOT try and whack someone else with it! Especially if that someone (me) is very proud of their family, and how they feed them. Because if YOU bring it up, which you did, that's a concept I'm more than willing to explore, being as how I actually have a family, and feed them very well.

If you are gonna get your panties in a wad over the concept of who's better at feeding their family, then don't accuse the other guy of not being wired to feed his family. Simpatico.

It ain't complicated, but some would like to make it so... Specially those having a conniption over an insult that THEY DELIVERED. You insulted ME over my ability to feed my family, you disingeneous idiot!

And yes, I probably will go shooting long-range later today. Just like i did twice last week. I'm for thinking that's three times more than most of the guys bashing me here! I probably will take my .358. And the way I mount my scopes will continue to work great for ME, which is the only person I've ever said it works great for, and the only person who matters. Seeing as how they are my rifles and all.

Damn, what a mess

Yep.

Go back to Reagan, for that matter.

All I'm saying is, let's be honest and fair about this deficit. We'll have plenty to bash Obama over, in the fullness of time. Right now, he's the guy who got to take over the boat going over the waterfall. It would have been, quite literally, IMPOSSIBLE practically speaking for him to not go through with TARP... it would be impossible to not fund the wars... it would be nearly impossible to not have put forth some sort of "stimulus"; that's what they all do these days... a large part of this deficit is something he had no control over, practically speaking.

On the medical stuff, I give the guy props for trying, and I'll reserve judgement until it's clear what he's trying to do. As a middle-aged man who's had some interactions with the medical world, and the insurance companies, I can say somewhat conclusively that what we have, is FUBAR. And I sure seem to remember reading somewhere, several years ago, that on a per-dollar basis our health care system is very inefficient. So, is socializing it the answer? I doubt it. But since it's already somewhat socialized due to the fact that we don't let people die in the street (and we all pay for that), I'm willing to at least take a look at what Obama, the insurance industry, and the medical industry can come up with.

Sorry you feel that way, Jacques.

Bart's whole reason for coming to this thread wasn't to talk about what the thread is nominally about. It was to take shots at me. That's patently obvious.

When he clearly implied that he was wired better than me to feed his family, it hit a nerve. I don't know squat about him or his family, but I do know about me and MY family, and I'll put my "wiring" to feed my family, against ANYONE's.

So for him to try and whack me with that one, was like lobbing an underhand serve to Federer. It's coming right back atcha... harder. Look out.

If Bart has family issues, I don't know them. I suspected he was weak on that front, since he's such a grumpy, abrasive guy. For him to try to make an issue of who was better wired to feed their family seemed stupid, to me, at the time. And worth some feeling out. Which is all I did- go back and look. I asked him about his family. He blew up. That's MY fault, now? This guy shows up on my thread about the economy, starts bashing me, says I'm not wired as well as he is to feed his family, then blows up when I take issue with that and politely ask about his family, that apparantly he's all sensitive about?

Jacques, you can be as mad at me as you want, but to be mad over THIS, is a little silly IMHO.

Finally, if you think I'm bad, I can only imagine what you must think of Paul Walukewitz for what he said. Maybe you should make a public pronouncement about him, too...?

Obama, you need to get to the range as much as you can. But stop at a gunsmith and have someone who KNOWS what they are doing mount that scope for you...might be able to cut down on the range time.

All right Bart, I'm taking this straight to the source.

Tell me how you didn't mention family first. Tell me how the direct quote, from you below, isn't a clear implication that I'm not wired to feed my family. I added the bold to help you understand what you said.

C'mon now. Use your words.

Read that Jeff! It doesn't mention YOUR family in there at all. It mentions HIS.

...and you continue to take shots... Everything about you is completely transparent to everyone here.

You've whined and whimpered about how you always take the high road and yet you continue to take shots at Bart. You know flat out you are wrong but you'd rather argue all around the issue than man up.

Bottom line, you should just leave but cain't read sign no matter how blatant and the 'fire really does enjoy the comic relief you provide.

Ain't you guys tired of conversin' with the village idiot yet? Had my fill........

He (JO)reminds me of my ex wife, couldn't stfu if he wanted to. Steve

I think someone should start up a poll in the campfire to see if we can work our fire like a democracy..........

Send him packing or let him stay.

I know he'd have a boot to his ass in my camp in short order. A lot can be said by the company a man keeps, or in this case, doesn't........There's an obvious trend of the topshelf folks who can't stand him. That should be obvious enough, even before he opens his mouth, or displays his scope-mounting skills.

Scott, you said it right.......The wrong guy got the brain tumor.

Dude... work on your reading comprehension.

He is saying he's wired to feed his family, and I'm not.

That's as obvious as can be. Read it:

Bart said:

"I'll tell you how I'm wired...And Scott...And most here that ignore your idiocy Jeff...I'm wired to hunt and kill to feed my family and to enjoy what God has provided me... You are wired to talk...Pure and simple"

If he's so sensitive about talking about how one is wired to feed their family, then he shouldn't come to a thead about the economy, and take a shot using THAT as his barb... at someone who, it so happens, actually IS wired to feed his family!

I am proud of my family, and proud of how I've fed them, both literally and metaphorically.

Literally speaking, my wife and I have worked our tails off and spent tons of extra money over the years, to insure that what goes into our bodies, especially the kids, is real food that is of high quality. Why? FAMILY. You should see the garden my wife is working in, right now as I type, and where I was just working. It's about 3/4 of an acre. We CARVED it out of the frikkin' jungle, digging stumps with our bare hands sometimes, and I ain't exagerating! I put a pic at the bottom of this post. That's just a small part of the garden, around the greenhouse there.

Metaphorically speaking, I worked two jobs to pay our property off early, and even though I've been cash-poor many times, I have never TOUCHED the roughly $400k of equity sitting there. Why? FAMILY. I have under $10k in debt, and that's in vehicles that I am WAY above water on. Not gonna make myself a debt slave. Why? FAMILY. I drove my daughter to a charter school the last two years, an hour commute. Why? FAMILY. My wife and I have had our rough stretches, like anyone who's been together 20+ years, but through thick and thin, leaving never ocurred to me. WHY? FAMILY.

So if Bart, or anyone here, takes a shot at me implying that they are wired to feed their family and I'm not, it's coming right back at you. I am PROUD of my family, and damn proud of how I've "fed" them!!! And if you are dumb enough, as Bart apparantly is, to take that shot when "family" is some sort of gaping wound that shall not be spoken of for you... then you are just an idiot. And if that describes Bart, then so be it. He took the first swings at me, then whined like a little girl when I just returned his serve.

Typical, for the breed. Show up, disrupt a thread, and if I throw your crap back at you, I'M the bad guy.

What this is all about, what idiots like you and your voting practices can never understand, is the government running industries and businesses or intervening make schit FUBAR. It has no money, we have no money and now your satisfied with "trying". Its bad enough you vote for idiotic experiments, just wish you'd all use your own coin to pay for them since they're so damn great.

System wouldn't be broke if people paid their way, and people won't die in the streets, either.

Curious to know your savior's solution. Betting with more of someone else's non-existent money...wonder what our "Bush" deficit will be up to then.

Holy Schit....

He didn't say you weren't wired to feed the family - he said you were wired to talk. Didn't say they were mutually exclusive.

Glad you like the healthy food, carved it out of the jungle huh? Hope you didn't get lost back there.

Jeff,
You talk about your equity, just got back from the grocery store, noticed that bread is approaching four dollars a loaf. Canned goods, vegetables, this time last year were around .20 to .25 cents a can. Every can purchased today was over a dollar. Dog food, last year .30 cents a can, now .70 cents a can. It goes on and on and on.

What I am saying here is your equity and mine for that matter in what's ours, what we've worked for is diminished by about the same percentage as the value of the dollar as compared to a year ago.

You know as well as I whose fault it is, no doubt about it.

Remember the black girl that was so happy because of no more worry about a car payment or a house payment. She was right. What the muslim is taking from me and you he is giving to those not willing to go it on their own.

Man, wake up. You're bouncing around in here like a blind queer at a weenie roast. Think about it before you say anymore to defend your magic negro. He is an enemy to your country, plain and simple.

g

You seriously need to find a hobby outside Al Gore's invention.

3499

3500!

Hey, GW, with your campaign platform, how about me, isaac, and Steve_NO for the SCOTUS. Hell, PLEASE throw denton in there, too.

Damn----where you shopping and what kind of bread you buying??

You guys need some Bunny Bread there. Bunny bread is organic right? I mean it's made by bunnies. I think!

Maybe it's made by those chicks from The Girls Next Door! They certainly have a way of making things rise!...

I know some chicks that make ice cream. No cones, only cups. Cost is rising on that too, so if you order more than one serving, they put it in one cup.

I know some gals in Tampa who sell roadside hot dogs in thongs. Buns are optional.

Who wants a hot dog in a thong?....

JO, if you find yourself in a hole, then quit digging. You're whole reply me is just exactly the kind of thing I was trying to tell you about. Read it yourself, then ask yourself, from the outside looking in sort of perspective, if it didn't sound sort of "Beechy", and wasn't just intended to just stir up some more crap.

BTW, another helpful pointer for you maybe, if you were capable of taking advice at least is, "Never argue with a fool, passersby won't be able to tell the difference".

now that's funny! bunny funny!

note to self---make sure gals selling dogs do not have them in their thong.

As I mentioned earlier, he doesn't take advice, for if he did, we wouldn't still be seeing him on this forum.

What!!! I'd pay extra for that, well at least helping to get them outa there!!!

Hey Jeff_O (short for Obama)...........

Hehehe, knew that was coming. I have to have sugar free bread that is approaching $4 a loaf I guess my point was that the stuff was $1.99 a loaf less than a year ago.... Also, I make a little go a long way, maybe one slice a day with breakfast.

g

I knew that----Be well!

Like the G flag!

Thanks, and a good time to fly the Gadsden flag it is!

g

While we are running polls, how about one asking how many people think that kind of statements is out of bounds for anyone to make?

Just saying...

Again...You are a liar...You are the one that needs to work on your reading comprehension skills...
I said EXACTLY what I intended to say and it had nothing to do with your family.

You are the perfect example of how liberals keep saying the same lie over and over again...Your repetitiveness don't fly here on the Campfire because we see you for what you really are...
It's sad and funny at the same time to watch you meltdown on this topic...
I thought that this turd of a topic was crusted over but you kicked it and it smells again...Good job Jeff...You are getting alot of attention...Too bad you don't care what kind of attention that you receive....

Lighten up Francis...I told Bristoe to chew on the business end of a pistol once...That ain't nuth'n....

Oh, so you get your panties in a wad when someone talks about your lack of familial relationships, but it is okay to wish a brain tumor upon someone...?

Yup---In fact, in the South I'm seeing more and more G flags flying without Old Glory over top. We both know what that means.

When did I get my "panties" in a wad?
I didn't react to his idiocy...Just ask him if he was taking a cheap shot at me...I got really thick skin there Slick...

So what are the boundaries? For example, is it okay to wish upon somebody that their wife go out and bring back an STD? To me, that would be out of bounds...

"Slick" and "Francis". With such rapier wit, I bet that you were a finalist on "Yo' Momma" on MTV...

Let your conscious be your guide... You seem to have a problem with my Stripes reference...Would it make you feel better if I used a smiley?

I don't have an issue with you. Just asking...

What is "YO MOMMA" on MTV?

Actually, it is pretty funny:

www.mtv.com/ontv/dyn/yo_momma/series.jhtml

think he meant Obama MOMMA...MTV would be Money TV!

Ain't this just fugg'n dandy! Jeff_O, what was you said about family values?...

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=126&sid=6843209

OK call me an idiot (and I am sure you will) but what in the hell is that? I will never drink from a coffee cup again!!

Do accept my apologies, for that was out of line and uncalled for.........

I suppose I should have simply referred to an old analogy that I think of often when seeing Jeff's name pop up on the board.
Tis something along the lines of a person not worth the powder it'd take to blow'em to hell, but don't quote me on that.

I'm not the one that has issus with the comprehension. I'm not going to play the quote Bart game with you. I know what HE said. I can read. You are a typical Liberal, puss and your making up things that wern't said.

Is this 2nd_ Amendment guy the new moderator or what?