I suppose you all knew this but everybody seems to be out of M1 carbine ammo.

I guess everybody figured out that the M1 carbine is the best self-defense weapon for the civilian/state militiaman.

Heck, I think I'm late to the game. Darn it!!!!!

Strange pricing, too.

It was in Sportsman Warehouse about a year ago, before ammunition disappeared.

Soft point 30 Carbine ammunition was about twice the price of FMJ. But 30 Carbine softpoint bullets cost exactly the same as FMJ bullets.

Bruce

Natchez Shooter's Supply and Cabela's have had it in stock on a regular basis. Its not there every day, but often enough.
I believe the last I got from Natchez was about $18 a box/50.

I've got a couple of cases of these.

I think if I decide to buy an M1 carbine this fall I'll buy ammo first. No sense in having a rifle without ammo.

The CMP, over the past few years, has released tens of thousands of surplus M1 carbines. The price of magazines and of ammunition sky rocketed at the beginning of this recent release. (I actually heard about it here, on 24HrCampfire. Thanks!)

Add to that, the recent bubble in arms and ammunition sales that began last November and is just now starting to slow down. I think that ammunition is starting to catch up to demand.

If you are former military or belong to a shooting club and shoot at any level of competition, you might want to check the following source. And yes, they don't ship quickly.

http://www.thecmp.org/ammosales.htm

AGUILLA .30 CALIBER AMMUNITION
438A

Aguilla .30 Carbine Ammunition (Ordership time estimated at 120-190 days)
$155

NLU 438A - 500 rounds. Manufactured by Aguila. .30 carbine. 110 grain. FMJ. Copper jacketed, brass case, boxer primed, non-corrosive.
Shipping & Handling per case $8.95. S&H to Alaska or Hawaii $16.95 per case. NOTE - Order ship time estimated at 120-180 days..


Chuck

I dunno if I'd call the carbine the best self defense weapon by a LONG shot.... We've shot a lot of hogs with them and have never been impressed, I'd take a light short AR ANY day over that 30 carbine round. And I"ve been much more impressed with my carry kimber on hogs, 45 acp.

I've shot a carbine all the way to 200 yards a LOT in practice matches and such, just ain't much of anything IMHO.

That being said I've hunted deer with a 32-20 the last year and been happy, its an antique but its far from what I'd call the ideal deer round even though I took 2 deer and a javelina with it.

Jeff

I've owned several and it's a marginal round for a rifle in an exceptional platform. In a pistol, within its limitations, it is outstanding.

30 Carbine ammo is cheaper than a lot of other calibers. Easier to find too.

hadn't thought of pistol, that could "change" things a tad. Still a weak round overall.

It's in the .357 Magnum class.

I wasn't thinking self-defense in the four-legged animal kingdom but self-defense in the two-legged kingdom. Having used a full size M-16 and a full size M-1 carbine and I like the M-1 better because it was always with you. The M-16 was a bigger rifle and heavier and one had a tendency to lay the M-16 against a tree or leave it in the vehicle rather than having it with you when you needed it. One could just lay the M-1 carbine across one's back and the little rifle would just stay there until needed.

Rear area troops need a self-defense weapon that frees the hands and yet is always available. The full size M-16 did not fit that need well at all. Civilians have the same needs as rear area troops, hands free and their self-defense weapon always available, the M1 carbine fits that role better than any AR type rifle.

I agree.

From:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_6_47/ai_74033105/pg_2/

The M1 Carbine For SELF-DEFENSE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT

Guns Magazine, June, 2001 by Charles Karwan

Probably the most authoritative account of the effectiveness of the M1 carbine in real combat comes from the superb book Shots Fired In Anger by John George. George served as a company grade officer in World War II in the famous Merrill's Marauders, operating behind Japanese lines. George was a highly experienced and successful service rifle competitor, shooter and hunter before the war, so all of his writing is from the perspective of someone highly knowledgeable about guns.

The M1 carbine was his primary weapon in the Marauders. The light weight of the carbine and its ammunition made it ideal for troops like the Marauders that carried all their supplies and equipment with them and were re-supplied by airdrops. His book covers several instances where he personally used or observed M1 carbines employed with great effect.

George reports, "The M1 carbine turned out to be the ace weapon of the war, as far as I am concerned. It was light and handy, powerful, and reasonably accurate ... The cartridge was powerful enough to penetrate several thicknesses of helmet, and to perforate the plates of the Japanese bulletproof vest, which would only be dented by .45 auto slugs. It was flat shooting enough to have practical accuracy at more than 200 yards ... For many types of offensive fighting, such as sneak raids and infiltration tactics, it was often superior even to the M1 (Garand), penetration being the only point of difference."

Seems like history has been re-written. I talked to lots of WWII vets, including my Dad and Uncles. Almost to a man, if they had an opinion, it was a negative one on the Carbine. Most liked the Thompson, with the caveat that it was heavy. Some liked the Grease Gun.

My Uncle carried one at D-Day and in the Belgium Bulge. He shot at some of our own men with it when they tried to hijack his truck presumably to sell on the Black Market.

go to

www.odcmp.com

m1 .30 carbine ammo is $155/500 rounds. it's aguila, but it's good stuff, and the mexican manufacturers are not afraid of putting powder in a bullet. bad news is it takes 6 mos. to get a shipment in. 110 grain fmj, but i like it.

doesn't do much for big 300 lb hogs, but works ok on the smaller ones.

-tom

No, just a different author with a different mission.

As for using ball ammo, compare 9mm ball v. 9 mm JHPs.

The same applied to the 30 carbine. Soft point bullets, made to expand at MV of 1900 fps, have proven the M1 to be a fine defense weapon.

Inside of 50 yards, what you have is a combat accurate, fast shooting 357 mag.

Not a bad tool at all.

BMT

The M1 Carbine is really a magnum pistol round in carbine drag. It is underpowered when compared to real rifle rounds. If it were a pistol its 110 grain HP at 1900 fps would generate "Ultimate Manstopper" headlines. It requires softpoint or hollowpoints to be effective.

Or maybe just a different theater. The typical Japanese soldier was 5'-3" and 117-lbs.

Excellent point.

Interesting points.

357 mag has never been powerful IMHO. Its bottom line for me personally.

We shot all our hogs with 110 JHPS, I'd never waste shooting somethign witha FMJ in a carbine round.

As to carry on the person at all times, hell if I"m carrying an M1 carbine on a sling I'd jsut as soon have an M4 type light AR on a sling any day. To carry on a person at any time, the 45 acp does just fine, works fine on 2 legged vermin to well over 100 yards accuracy wise and has what I need for power.

As to good uses in combat, a couple of folks I know and respect from the Korean "conflict" said that the chinese came in waves and that you'd shoot and knock one down with a carbine only to have them get right back up again. And that the 45 was a better killer, but they had to be closer. And that they did find that the insulated clothing of the chinese to be enough to stop the carbine bullet.

As to penetrating further than a garand bullet, thats a joke IMHO and especially compared to the black tipped AP rounds.

Jeff is Right.

But, the weapon is designed as a DEFENSIVE weapon for truck drivers as a substitute for the 1911 (which nobody could hit anything with).

In the short range DEFENSIVE role its a great gun.

Under 25 yards with soft point ammo, it is a fine and EXTREMELY RELIABLE weapon.

It is NOT a Garand. It should not be compared to a Garand.

It is, what it is.

A light, handy, reliable, defensive and short range tool.

BMT

Frozen clothing and the 30 Carbine:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot36.htm

...
It seems that it was rumored that the North Korean Commies wore thick clothing and that in the freezing rain, the outside, which was wet, froze.

It was then said that the .30 Carbine would not penetrate this frozen clothing, but would bounce off like an over-cooked string bean hitting an anvil.
...
Well, I don't have any authentic North Korean Army clothing from that time period, but I do have some cotton terry cloth towels. So, I did the following.

First, I folded the towel three times, making it 8 layers thick.

Is this the same thickness as the clothing worn by the Commies?

I don't know, but it looked like a good winter thickness to me.

I then wet it down really well and wrung out some of the water.

I left it pretty soaked so that it would freeze well.
Frozen Clothing And The Box O' Truth

I live in Southeast Texas, and we don't see a lot of freezing weather here, but I do have a freezer.

So, I laid it on a tray and put it in the freezer for about a week and froze it good and solid.

I took it out of the freezer and placed it in a cooler to transport it to the range without it thawing out.

We then went to the range and set it up in front of the Waterbox O' Truth.

I used some clamps to hold it in front of the gallons of water.
The frozen material was a little over one inch thick.
...
I then fired a round of standard .30 Carbine Ball into the frozen towel.

We went down range and were amazed that not only had it easily gone through the frozen material, but had penetrated 7 gallons of water.

That is approximately 42 inches of water.

That means about 21 inches of ballistic gelatin or human flesh.

Since 12 inches is considered to be the minimum required penetration to reach vital organs, this round penetrated almost twice as far as needed.

....

Lessons learned:
1. If anyone shot at a North Korean Commie and he didn't go down, it was because they missed him. Because frozen clothing sure won't slow down a .30 Carbine.

2. The old warhorse, the .45 ACP Ball, isn't exactly "weak" in the penetration category either.

3. I don't know how this rumor got started, but it looks like it was completely false.

4. The .30 Carbine, as we have noted before, is highly underrated in many categories.

5. Shooting stuff is fun.

From:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.30%20carbine

.30 carbine

From Doctor Roberts: "The best ammunition choices for the M1 Carbine are the Remington 110 gr JSP (R30CAR) and the Corbon 110 gr JHP DPX loading using the all copper Barnes X bullet. The Remington load has an average velocity of 1864 f/s, expands to around .54� to .58� and penetrates 13� to 16� whether in bare gelatin, through automobile windshields, or Level IIIa body armor. This is comparable intermediate barrier performance to many good .223 loads. Likewise, the Corbon DPX load penetrates 18.9" and expands to 0.56" in bare gelatin. The Winchester 110 gr JSP also works reasonably well, but has a bit smaller permanent wound channel compared to the Remington or Corbon DPX load. In addition, the new Speer 110 gr Gold Dot carbine load appears very promising based on the factory test data released at SHOT 2009"




New data shows that the 110gr Speer Gold Dot bonded soft point load is also a very effective performer. Penetration is in the 16-17" range through most of the FBI barrier test with near perfect expansion. Velocity at 10ft averages right at 2000fps.

First... if the carbine is useful at 25 yards and under, then anyone that can't hit anything at 25 with a 45 should have no business with any weapon. Heck a human target at 100 yards is easy enough given some practice.

Second, I never said the clothing was frozen, IMHO frozen would be much easier to penetrate that flexible balled up insulated material. I'll also go you that I"ve seen this Master Sergeant shoot now since the late 80s... it wasn't the nut behind the butt, lets just say that much

Third, I'll take field data every last time. You can do all the testing you want, but that means very little in the real world often. My real world was full of pigs and 110 JHP WW ammo. Shot from around 10 yards out to about 65 or so, I"d take my Kimber 45 every last time. ANd the rest of the folks I've talked to agree.

Fourth, the carbine is a neat little great rifle to dink around with. But IMHO there are still much better choices for self defense. That being said I've packed that carbine a time or two on trips as a trunk gun, why, I have no clue other than I also know that location of shot placement is key over and above everything else.

Fifth, I've never been a light fast club member, 230 grains at 800 fps always impressed me more.

Exactly. The idea of it bouncing off clothing is absurd. What happened was that they wore many layers of this fluffy clothing, and it made the soldiers look twice as thick as they really were. Soldier shot at enemy soldier, saw the puff of dust kick up off clothes, it was a glancing shot, soldier (feeling the pain from the shot) goes down, realizes he's not badly wounded, gets up again.

When is the Speer Gold Dot supposed to hit the market?

You can order M1 carbine ammo here.

All of the ammo I've bought from them has been very good.

All too often people forget that the little carbine was a replacement for a handgun�it�s a Carbine, not a rifle. In an urban environment, with fighting at short ranges the Carbine could be nearly ideal. As for the cartridge, most FMJ cartridges tend to suck. Stoke a Carbine with a 110 JHP like the Winchester factory load, or a the 110 grain X bullet load from Cor-Bon, and predictably, it becomes a whole new animal, with power outstripping a .357 magnum. Now add in that the M1 Carbine could hold its own with the AK in the reliability department and now the little carbine begins to rise to the top. For defense of my neighborhood, I�ll take an X bullet loaded M1 Carbine over any AR. Sure, the AR an accuracy edge, but the Carbine is a much more reliable weapon, and certainly accurate enough for anything you�re likely to encounter. And inside 100 yards, I�m betting a 110 grain X bullet from a .30 carbine will do more soft tissue damage than any 5.56 FMJ.

Whoa, there's your problem. You shouldn't be using high velocity lightweight JHP's with little sectional density on something like a pig; results are rather predictable on this one. The bullet is going to open up and essentially rip itself apart when going through tough swine flesh. If you want to kill hogs with a .30 Carbine, the 110 SP does the job just fine when you place your shots with care. A hog's muscle tissue is far thicker and more dense than a humans. Lightweight bullets that would perform very well against two legged threats would be completely insufficient for a hog.

I used to carry my Carbine as "backup" when we went on knife hunts; never failed me and tended to be about perfect for the job. Never mind carrying a low recoil 5.5lb rifle that shoots fast when it counts.

God Love the Box-Of-Truth

Our experiences with the JHP is that they didn't open up like a normal HP bullet, and as such, didn't kill all that quickly. More like my 32-20.

As to carbine vs pistol, at what folks are considering carbine ranges, I'm just as happy with my 1911, if I wanted to carry the length and weight of the carbine it would be a short AR, and as to the inference of the AR not being as reliable, thats only an issue if you don't know what you are doing with it as far as I can tell.

I have NOT shot a pig with a soft point, so you may be right on there, maybe the hide/shields etc plugged the HP part and that was an issue. I do know this, a pig shot with a 30 carbine HP bullet dies about as fast as when I shoot em in the ribs with my 22 lr MK2 and HPs... which is fast enough for me by all means, but then again what would I want to pack that carbine for when my MK2 is good to 50 yards easy...

I suspect some of this will boil down to personal preference really.

And its a shame we lost the lease that was full of pigs since the 80s, there went my prime test ground because we could shoot 3-7 or so pigs every other weekend if we wanted to...

I have killed a number of feral dogs and hogs with the .30 Carbine 110 SP bullet. I much prefer a .44 Mag 270 grain over the 110 .30 bullet, but it will do the job.

Georgia Arms is back in stock with their 110 SP, at $25/50 rounds.

Recently purchased a Ruger single action in 30 carbine as it had several hundred bullets, brass, dies & primers with it. Was low on rifle ammo and having hard time finding it. So took the package deal to get the reloading components. Buddy who shoots same is loading the cartridges for me. Looking forward to shooting the handgun. Appears to have approx same power as a 357.

M1 carbine is a fun gun even if it is short on the power side. GW

wear your muffs when you touch that off. .30 Carbine Ruger SA is the LOUDEST handgun out there.

I would bet so seeing as how the round was designed to work in an 18" barrel. I would imagine not all the powder is burned in a pistol length barrel. But heck I'm no expert and could be wrong.

If you don't need the same ammunition to work in both the Carbine and the Ruger, just load the pistol cartridges using 32-20 data.

Bruce

I'm at a distinct disadvantage in evaluating the debate here, some truths evident on both sides, or all three sides, such as it is. Part of the problem is my experience disagrees with much of what's written here. Not saying your experience is a load of hooey, but then, neither is mine.

Subject being M1 carbine ammo availability: Is available if you look for it, mostly Ball production. That ain't a bad thing necessarily because it minimizes the probability or perhaps I should say possibility of F-T-Feed. To tell the truth, I've never had one, in the M1 carbine, M16, CAR15, M3 or M14. Darn ol' milspec rifles always worked for me. I don't personally know a soul that ever had a malfunction in an M16 in combat. A guess on my part, but I've probably fired more rounds from the -16 than 99.9% of the members here...if not all.

Side bar(s)

Accuracy isn't the domain of the M1 but the one I owned some years ago was good for 9 out of 10 on a 10" steel at 100 meters offhand, factory or hand loads. I never tried that with the M16 but it was good for M.O.D. a fair bit further. That particular target standard is a good bit smaller than an average Japanese BTW.

Carry: Never carried an M4, but probably don't want to. Probably would get the food processor hung up on something. Or whatever all that crap is they mount on them these days. They are heavy. Difference between the -16 and M1 is a wash to me. The carbine is lighter, but the -16 has a handle. Neither is a burden to carry, both are easy to bring to bear and ballistics are not arguably different inside 100 meters. Now I have seen each put down an NVA with a butt stroke and there is no discernible difference in result. Same result with the other end.

Other comparisons: Apples to apples, the Carbine is not a Garand, a -14, -16, or a standard issue 1911. It is what it is. I shall not exhort the merits or demerits of any. Well, maybe except the 1911. It is without fault and if you can't hit somebody at 25 yards with one, get yourself a handicapped parking decal.

Penetration: I've seen two scenarios with .22 caliber rounds that put a question to relative importance of this subject in the Man vs. Man role. One was a mature elephant that went down to a single round from a M16 (brain shot) a few miles east of the A Shau Valley. I've also noticed a failure of people to stop penetration of the round with their bodies. The other is my penchant for shooting hogs with .22 CB Shorts. The conundrum is this: If they (CBs) will reliably suffice in this application, what is the significance of the discussion on penetration, frozen clothes or drug crazed zombies? I'm not implying bigger is wrong, but how much deader are hogs or whatever after they've been so addressed? Granted I am going for CNS shots and picking my circumstances, but so far as terminal ballistics are concerned, the question stands.

Terminal Ballistics: If your litmus is FPE, stop reading here. If you give credence to more complex analysis such as wound channels and such there comes a point where one has to acknowledge FMJ and Soft Point exhibit different characteristics. Awareness of that should, by all reasonable accounts, govern how you use them. I would debate, vigorously, that M1 carbine ball is more destructive than it's counterpart in the M16. I've seen a lot of creatures and people die from the -16, none took a second shot to dispatch. Those that I've seen close after the fact had rather nasty wounds, usually on the off side. For clarification I am speaking of the ammo used in the Vietnam era, not today's long slow torpedoes from fast twist barrels. (A mistake in my opinion)

All of this is my long winded way of saying it really doesn't matter what you use so long as you use in well. Know your gun and load gents, use what you like and don't worry too much about what the Jones are up to. Shoot small.

DD, nice summary!

Anyone else see this taken from the Wisconsin Cartridge.com site ..... http://www.wisconsincartridge.com/productcart/pc/wiscartridge1-attention.pdf
under their notice regarding product availability?

I think everybody is stocking up for the inevitable civil/revolutionary war that is coming.

I need a 38 snubnose a buddy gave me 500 rds of 38 Special. He also gave me 500 rds of 380 but I gave it to a friend that had to 380's to feed.

I remember reading a quote from a GI in the Europe in World War 2. He said that he shot a German 8 times with the M1 Carbine and that the German still lived long enough to shoot him.

That said, my father carried a carbine during World War 2. And my Uncle deer hunted in Michigan with one.

Chuck

Is he the governor of California?

I guess when bang-flop fails, it can be most embarrassing.

(Obviously, he may not have hit the German as many times as he thought. Or the German could have been on go-pills. Or, any number of other possibilities.)

Chuck

Just kidding, I've heard humans on adrenalin do some super human feats so this would be possible, that's why 50 cal tac rifles were born and now they can clobber them to a kilometer no problemo. LOL