but if you can't do basic math, who gets the blame?

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A similar experiment at some college/university showed very few knew who the Vice Prez is..

Our LIBERAL education system - at it's best...

90%!!!???

WOW!

Guess homo high has other priorities...

If you can read this, thank a teacher.
If you can read this in English, thank a soldier.

Seriously now; schools continue to fail and yet they ask for more and more money. Many students are English learners who are in this country illegally, which skews the numbers significantly.

Methinks parents are the only ones responsible to ensure their kids learn. Unfortunately school is looked upon as 6 period daycare center for kids.

Dad spent lots of time with me and if he didn't know how to do something he found someone that did to help teach me. It's also on the person being taught. I don't care if your 15 or 50, if you aren't grasping something ask.

our oldest came to us asking for help on her algebra math about 10 days ago cause she didnt understand it......no problem the wife and had no issues with calculus when we were in school....i knew i was gonna have to refresh my memory so i took her book to read and look at the examples since i havent had to use fractions and cubed and square roots in algebra since i had a math class nearly 10 years ago.....could not find a single [bleep] example in the book, not to mention every chapter was a jumble of a whole lot of chit and had no rhyme or reason to it.....WTF? the entire text book was questions with nothing showing a kid how to do something if they get stuck outside of the classroom.....we finally had to go online and after bout a 5 minute refresher course the wife and i were able to explain how to do them to Kate....

couple days ago we bump into a math teacher from the high school and ask her what she thought about the text books.....she shook her head and said the problem is not the text books, the real problem is the tests they are required to give to meet the No Child Left Behind standards.....the tests teach on everything at every grade level....teachers CAN NOT focus on algebra, have the students get it down, move on to trig, have the students get it down and move on to calc.....they are teaching algebra one day, trig the next and often the lessons have nothing in common...teachers are having to fly through it to cover enough chit that the majority of the students have a shot in hell of passing the guberment tests.....cant teach them in away to give them a solid foundation.....the guberment aint letting that happen.....

cant believe how far our school, which has some damn good math teachers, same ones i had for the most part 10 years ago, and they cant teach kids math.....it aint all the teachers fault, alot of this lies at the feet of the idiots in DC

Scott - very well said. Thank you for posting it. Best, John

Regardless of who is at fault here, and the list of candidates is very long........
Regardless, the tax payer is getting short shrift, and is being forced to pour money down a sewer to support teacher unions.

Blame a teacher's union if Johnny can't read. The unions keep the unqualified teachers in class rooms, and they specify which text books. No Child Left Behind was an attempt, however lame, to fix the problem that teachers and their unions caused.

Only person responsible for my kid is me. Seems lots of folks bitch about government in their life but expect them to be the ones responsible for teaching my kid and ensuring they are in fact learning.

That falls on the parent, period.

part of the problem being Steelie, i aint a teacher.....i make a damn fine student but always come up short trying to teach someone something i know....for one i dont have the patients.....so i send my stepdaughters to a school i know has damn fine math teachers, how do i know this? cause they taught me....but .gov has changed the rules so [bleep] much in less than 10 years the damn good teachers cant teach the kids for chit....not a private school around that i could send her to even if i had the money.....

The above based on your years of parenting, of course...

Not saying you're not partially correct, of course. But in today's world, where both parents tend to be working outside the home, as a necessity there's a reliance on schools to do what they're supposed to do: educate your child.

Scott

P.S. Sam, apparently you and I are in agreement. Is this another case of my not thinking ??

I actually agree with Scott to an extent. When I stand before God, He ain't gonna start talking about how the Teacher's Union should've raised my kids better.

The problem with kids today goes way beyond the schools and the problems with schools goes way beyond the Teacher's Union or NCLB. "Teacher's Union" should just be called "NEA" because none of the others have any power or any affect on anything whatsoever.

Is the NEA a dipshit outfit? Certainly. Without it though, the administrators would just completely control the schools and you wouldn't want that. If you could boil the problem down to one issue, it would be administration. You can't boil it down to that though.

NCLB was rammed through by a Republican President with the full backing of a Republican Congress. It was based on ideas set forth by arch-Republican, Ronald Reagan. If you want to blame anybody individually for kids not knowing who the Vice President is, you should blame Ronald Reagan. The Reagan Report came out when he was President and said too much emphasis was being put on subjects other than the three R's. NCLB is an outgrowth of that.

Actually, I don't know why people still cite NCLB. I didn't like it to begin with, but it did raise achievement in core classes. You have to give it up somewhat, for that. The Dems seem to be doing everything in their power to reverse that trend, even though Teddy Kennedy actually was the power behind NCLB.

I know that school or no school, I am the one ultimately responsible for my child and their education. I know that the community of which I'm a part, is ultimately responsible for the schools. I do all that I can to affect the local schools positively. It seems like all we can do is get assclowns elected to school boards though. And Kansas has some of the best schools in the country.

unlike most i am very keyed into the local schools.....not only cause my daughters are there but i cover the school board meetings for the paper(after 7 years of doing this i actually understand how schools work better than some school board members, which frankly scares the chit out of me).....our current math curriculum is a direct result of NCLB....before no NCLB you started with algebra as a freshman and hit calculus as a senior if you want it....yes some students never got that far but those that wanted to understand math got the basics done solidly before advancing up....alot of time was spent on the components....now because the NCLB requirements and the tests that have come out of it, your freshman student needs to understand simple to complex algebra, trig and even pre calc their first year of high school....how in the hell do you spend the right amount of time teaching a kid what they need to know if you have to try to get them to understand everything so that maybe, just maybe they can pass that .gov test that the administrators have to worry about.....from what i see with NCLB only the real smart kids are gonna get anything out of it, anyone else is gonna be taught to the lowest denominator...

was NCLB a good thing for the schools thatw ere doing a chitty job? sure it was....but for those schools that were producing students that knew their chit and realized some kids aint gonna learn for the simple fact their parents dont give a [bleep] its been a horrible piece of legislation....

NCLB is nonsensical because eventually, all schools will be "on improvement". There were versions of the same thing already on the books in every state I'm familiar with though, before NCLB went national. Nationalized curriculum is the goal and NCLB was a huge jump in that direction. If not nationalized, then you've got some state bs to deal with. I'm a Republican but...the Republicans talk a good game when it comes to local control, but they really are big government too. I'm talking at either the Federal or State levels. Then, if you do have local control, nine times out of ten, you've got idiots on the school board who are too stupid to have that control. Personally, I want local control, but there are problems with it.

NCLB doesn't mandate curriculum. It mandates results. To get the desired results, you have to teach certain things. So the Feds finally figured out they could go through the back door and accomplish exactly what they wanted while preserving the appearance of "allowing" for local control. Some of us said that, but like usual, it didn't matter. Things like this are why I am no longer a member of the local school board and also why the current members hate my guts.

In the end, it is your school board that okayed curriculum, most likely chosen by "experts" who talked the administration into it and who themselves then coerced the teachers into recommending it to the board. What you see as a reporter in the boardroom is nothing but window-dressing. The real meetings are held in secret and probably involve less than half the board. That's where your trouble is, with the administration and a couple of board members who run the show. The rest of the board just want their retarded kid on the honor roll and to be Homecoming King or whatever. They are not just whores, but cheap ones.

Schools have to teach all the courses and feed at least two meals a day and teach courses to cover "Date Rape" and "Sexual Harassment". They have to insure that no one is being bullied that they all have equal access to all facets of school life and that not one single one is left behind. If the child's IQ is 70 or if it's 170 they take the same test and the school is accountable for their success or failure. The school provides Free transportation to and from school and after school practices and provides adult (teacher) supervision. All of our teachers are "Highly Qualified" meaning that in addition to a teaching certification, History Teachers have a Degree in History, Math Teachers have a Degree in Math, and so on..... Not only do schools have to insure the child's safety at school, the child has to "feel" safe as well. To a lot of kids, being at school is ten times better than being at home.

Still, being a teacher is such an easy job, anybody can do it! There is a shortage of teachers, so I know that teachers are not contributing to the unemployment rate!

Alan

Last night I was helping my 13 year old find the vertex and graph absolute value equations. I think she'll do alright.

I'm pretty stewpit. Your are kidding aren't you? I assume sarcasm targeting what the status quo has been saying for years...

Actually I just read today where there are now a glut of teachers.

its a small town, it aint window dressing, not to mention they have no committees and its pretty easy to tell if they are making desisions that arent based on what info they get at the meetings.....aint to hard to figure out when the superintendent has his coffee on a daily basis and how much sugar he puts in it if i want....not to mention most the current board aint smart enough to be that sneaky, atleast more than once..

currently the school board has a bunch of idiots on it, mainly cause the smart ppl got tired of the idiots, its getting to the point the wife is thinking bout running for it to up the average IQ.....but push comes to shove our administrators are pretty good, and have done a damn good job....there is only one of them that i dont know that well, the rest are locals or at the very least have been in the area a couple decades...the current superintendent is a long time family friend and was my teacher at one point in high school is he an outstanding administrator? no but he is a good one that truly has the best interests of the school and community in mind......

my girls are quite bright but from what i have seen they aint gonna get half the education i did and its due to changes that were kick started by NCLB....i hate english, but have no problems writing cause i had a damn good teacher, had damn good math teachers, had damn good science teachers....all this on one of the poorest indian reservations....the problem now is that teachers must focus a hell of alot of their time on students that do not want to be in class and who have parents that dont care how their kids do....before the teachers could teach those that wanted an education and give those that were interested in one a damn fine one....now they spend most there time focusing on those that aint gonna ever see the inside of a college classroom and the bright kids are left hanging in the wind....

depends on subject, try finding science or music teachers....its near impossible....

My wife is a music teacher and has been trying to get into the public system in Des Moines. That has been impossible for many years. I suppose different areas are, well, different.

could be come to Montana, she would be hired damn quick i bet.....do know this year was a bit different as some other states were laying off teachers due to lack of funds while Montana, due to a balanced budget at the state level, wasnt hurting financially and was hiring teachers....the local district had an aweful lot of applicants from Arizona this year, actually this was the first year in over a decade where they had a full staff hired the first day of school with teachers that were qualified to teach the respective classes....most the time they cant find someone to hire....

On my first search I found 364 Teaching Jobs available right now (November 13). That means that 364 classrooms in Texas are without a full time qualified teacher. That does include administrators as well, so what ever number there are of those then subtract that from the classroom and add it to the "School without a Principal" column.

For the last two years we (GISD) has been paying $8000 sign on bonus over two years for Math and Spanish teachers. (oh yeah, and $2000 stipend over base pay as well).

There was some sarcasm in my post. I suppose I should be more sincere more of the time. I know one High School Administrator who said, "To Hell with this" and went back into the classroom and I know another one who wishes she could (or would) do the same. It would sure make things more pleasant around my house.

Alan

I tend to agree. I always thought my parents were tougher on me as it related to learning than my teachers. Although, I did have good teachers who cared. My sister is a teacher and all 3 of her boys are on average 3 classes ahead of the rest. That is 100% to her credit and the time she devotes to making them work and learn overtime as my parents did with the 4 of us. Her oldest just took his SAT and posted a near perfect score. Only missed 6 math questions and a few more critical reading questions. He's retaking the test, which says something in of itself. My other sisters kids both made it through tough colleges with the help of scholastic awards, which led to funding. Yup were it not for my parents not sure where any of us would have wound up.

I am however, in favor of higher pay grades for the teachers who care. My sister receives thank you letters from parents all the time for their kids progress in class and desire to learn more at home. But yet she only takes home about $800 every 2 weeks. And that's with a Masters in Education. There's something wrong with this picture

when I pay a large amount of money to the government, to pay for schools, I expect to get some return on investment.
My kids are grown and on their own, I still pay the taxes, and for my money, I get illiterates moving into the work place.
No wonder we can't compete globally anymore. Our workers have no education.

As an administrator (and conservative) in the "liberal" public school system, here is my $0.02 worth. . .

First of all, if I had 35 hrs/wk to teach students writing, reading, science, math, social studies, and computer skills the job would -- and often does -- get done very effectively. However, much of that 35 hrs/wk is spent by teachers serving as surrogate parents helping many students meet basic needs and learn to overcome the environments their "real" parents have created for them. Nevertheless, I know this is a part of my job, I embrace it, and I spend countless hours trying to understand ways of dealing with it.

There are teacher shortages in many parts of the country -- just as there might be a surplus in many northern states. Regardless, there is a shortage of qualified teachers everywhere. One of the primary reasons for this is that teaching has become a fall-back profession for many. This is not to say that there aren't great teachers who have come from different fields (particularly the military and business worlds). Generally speaking -- and unfortunately -- the teaching profession no longer carries the respect it did many decades ago. Educators of all levels must bear the responsibility for this change. We must also assume the lead in changing this attitude.

As for NCLB, it is the grandest absurdity one could imagine. The premise may be noble, but it is an exercise in futility. I am still waiting for our government to hold every dental clinic, hospital, and medical clinic to the same expectations. Our educational system needs to focus on preparing kids for their individual futures which may include something other than a 4yr college. Maybe many of these kids that are under-performing in college, would have been better served if they had received some real-world vocational training instead?

I will be the first to agree that many improvements are needed in many of our nation's public schools. Some believe that the answer will be found in charter schools (i.e. -- public-funded private schools). My limited experience with charter schools would prove that solution laughable at best. The quickest solution, and one that will never be attempted, is to hold parents jointly accountable with the schools for the successes and failures of students. Tie all types of welfare payments and benefits into student performance for a start. Require diplomas for drivers licenses and sufferage. Make education and community/military service a real requirement for juvenile offenders. . .

I could go on and on. . .

I don't need to suck a crank to tell you I wouldn't like it, perhaps you are different.

Both parents working is just another sham. Sure, if both parents want to drive a new car, 52" color tv yadda yadda. People can blame everyone else if they choose.

Sure you give the state lots of money Sam but I'd make damn sure they were giving it back. It shouldn't be a surprise to a parent if their kids can't read in the 11th grade or do math.

The only one responsible for my family is ME. Apparently lots of conservatives on here expect the government teach their kids everything. Fine, but trust and verify.

Scott, parenting is absolutely like nothing you've ever done, period. I'm not saying you'd be a horrible dad. Actually,in many ways I think quite the opposite would be true.

As for the homoerotic reference - why do you always go there? Are you familiar with the quote "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"?



Or a roof overhead, food on the table, and enough $$ in the bank to not be a burden on society or your kids when you're old. Again, basing your argument solely on your experience is spurious. Not everyone lives life a la Steelhead. To categorize two income families as a sham is insulting a huge chunk of humanity.



Well, here we're in complete agreement. "'Trust' but verify". It's our job to make sure that the educators are doing their job. It is our job to make sure that our kids do their job. It should not be our job to teach calculus, trigonometry, English grammar, chemistry, biology, U.S. history, foreign language, physics and computer science.

Scott

My father, who has been a teacher and/or an administrator in the public school system, in the public university system, in the DOD school system overseas, and retired as a headmaster of a private school, and was elected to two terms on our local borad of education while owning a private business, (whew!), says virtually the same thing as you........

Casey

As to the first two paragraphs. Great. But that is not my experience and I can almost guarantee that I am way more experienced than you from the top to the bottom where the public schools are concerned.

As to the third, what is the answer then? Separating the children when they are in kindergarten like the Japs do? I am competitive and so are my kids. I did very well in grad school. Still, I can't be that hard, and I don't think that's a bad thing. Most of the impetus for NCLB came from the attitude that we are actually behind other countries. Other countries cheat on the testing and misreport their results. IMO, our country seems to be more honest, after a fashion. I would have to go into greater detail than I want to here to explain my thoughts on this. My own kids are way ahead of where I was at their age, with about the same level of intellectual ability. This is the norm for Kansas.

http://www.uschamber.com/icw/reportcard/default

I don't really understand what you're complaining about. If your kids are being educated commensurately with the rest of your state, it looks like Montana is doing pretty well. The return on your investment ain't so hot though. I'd talk to some of your buddies about that. Administrators tend to be very slick and very good at self-promotion.

Kids are really easy to teach if you make it fun for them. And it doesn't require much time, either.

Had my daughter doing plenty more than just basic math before she started school. She could count change better at 5 years old than any of the local convience shop clerks can. I tested one a couple days ago. Love doing this to them, maybe I'm just being mean:) Total was 5.37, I gave her a 10 spot. I deliberately waited until she punched it in and the change due was on the screen, then handed her 2 quarters and 2 pennies. Instant tail spin. IMO anyone with a HS diploma should immediatley know the answer without even having to think. She looked at the screen, then at the 52 cents, then at the ten dollar bill then back at me, then looked at each again. She had to reach for a calculator. Even after punching in the numbers and hitting = I could tell it didn't soak in. She didn't have a clue. Not even the first clue. Pathetic. My daughter knew the answer to that before even starting school and this girl graduated 2 years ago, 3 years older than my daughter. I know her dad, he's a bright man. I know all her teachers, they're bright people. We're out in the boonies, small school where kids get plenty of individual attention. What's wrong? She's not stupid. Her parents are far from stupid. What's wrong?

My daughter is prepping for college to become a nurse. That girl will spend her life behind that counter and never understand why. Probably never even occur to her to think about the question let alone ask, let alone again seek the answer. Pathetic.

Again, what's wrong is big business and the administration. It rankles big business persons to put ANY money in something they aren't getting a return on. I'm not sure our system of education being taxpayer funded is a good thing, but its what we've got. Most politicians are either bought and paid for by the big boys are are the big boys themselves. They HATE paying for our kids' education in the form of the public schools. Kansas, for instance, spends very little, relatively, on education, yet we are consistently one of the top-ranking states in achievement. What does our legislature do? Stay the course? Do what is working? Hell no, they make education pay for nearly all the cuts to make up for the shortfalls due to the recession.

Almost any time you have budget cuts, administration will cut teaching positions. Time and again educational research has shown that there is a direct correlation between class size and student achievement. There is simply no time for individual assistance if the class size gets too big. And I don't care what administrators say, paraprofessionals aren't teachers.

and then we can get into exactly WHAT kids are being taught: Political correctness, liberal world view, marxist economic theory, animal rights, twisted and distorted American and world History........
and what they are NOT being taught: Math, English grammer, English literature, why America became the greatest Country in the history of mankind...........

You can't have everything. With the intensive emphasis on Reading, Writing and Arithmetic, things get shoved to the wayside. There are only so many hours in the day and emphasizing the aforementioned gets Joe Biden no air time. On the other side of the coin, preparing future communists that know not to pray in school, tote guns, slaughter bambi and make fun of [bleep], takes a lot of time too. No future engineers in the latter group. Only crazed Muslim Psychiatrists or people raised by villages of idiots.

Yep, Cole. I believe ya.

We decided before our little boy was born he'll be home schooled for at least the first few years. Even if we start him in school in the 4th or so, we'll have him through the home school cirriculum 6th grade level. He already counts well and is learning the alphabet, coming along nicely for not even 3 yet. His grandma keeps saying he's too smart for his own good. He's too smart for HER own good, I can agree with that She's the least bright of his 4 grandparents. His vocabulary in the last 2 or 3 months has really taken off. Surprising even me! I think he'll do well. And I'll be doing my best to see to it.

He understands his countiing well enough to know who won the ball game (a little jab for JeffO from the huckin' fippy thread)

Cole, i know other school boards can be a PITA as far as doing something in secret....one of the school boards north of me for awhile was doing board meetings on a school bus driving around town and keeping parents out of the meetings cause the law just stated that board meetings had to be held on school property.....didnt say they had to be held in a school building....that law has now changed...i have just been speaking bout the one local school board, not school boards in general...

and yes i believe you should separate the kids.....advance the smart kids as fast as they can handle, and do more one on one time with the kids that are having problems getting the stuff in a different setting(this kinda thing my school was doing before NCLB)....i aint saying kick them to the curb but there isnt any reason to hold back the kids that can handle it....hell due to a disagreement with an english teacher and the need to rearrange my class schedule i completely skipped pre-calc and dove right into calc with no problems and i am far from the sharpest tack in the drawer...

from what i have seen NCLB has actually hurt our district.....given the school is bout 80% indian there have always been challenges just due to various social-economic issues and even cultural issues....the school administration was constantly looking for ways to improve things before NCLB....now they have to spend a whole hell of alot of money on various testing and even had to hire an administrator JUST to deal with the paperwork....money woulda been better spent on other things...

the biggest reason NCLB will never even half way work here is because a significant portion of the student body has parents that could give a chit if their student is even attending school and because of that our school has yet to actually meet AYP goals....due to some loopholes given some schools our district has met some lowered benchmarks and been safe from the more severe problems other schools that have not met AYP for several years in a row but pretty soon that loophole will be gone too and the district is gonna get penalized for chit they cant really do anything about...

I didn't realize it at the time, but the little elementary school and the middle school that I attended provided an excellent basic education,..the high school, not so much.

Looking back, it's a damn shame that the kids who received such a good education through the first 8 grades there had to be saddled with that sorry high school.

It's not much of an exagerration to say that there was nothing being taught past the 8th grade. Fortunately, by then you had enough to function pretty well if you had worked at it.