Wow... this is going to cause a fecal matter storm of Bibilical proportions


U.S. Military Weapons Inscribed With Secret 'Jesus' Bible Codes
Pentagon Supplier for Rifle Sights Says It Has 'Always' Added New

Testament References
By JOSEPH RHEE, TAHMAN BRADLEY and BRIAN ROSS
Jan. 18, 2010 �


Coded references to New Testament Bible passages about Jesus Christ are inscribed on high-powered rifle sights provided to the United States military by a Michigan company, an ABC News investigation has found.

The sights are used by U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the training of Iraqi and Afghan soldiers. The maker of the sights, Trijicon, has a $660 million multi-year contract to provide up to 800,000 sights to the Marine Corps, and additional contracts to provide sights to the U.S. Army.

U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn up in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarked on a religious "Crusade" in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents.

One of the citations on the gun sights, 2COR4:6, is an apparent reference to Second Corinthians 4:6 of the New Testament, which reads: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

Other references include citations from the books of Revelation, Matthew and John dealing with Jesus as "the light of the world." John 8:12, referred to on the gun sights as JN8:12, reads, "Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Trijicon confirmed to ABCNews.com that it adds the biblical codes to the sights sold to the U.S. military. Tom Munson, director of sales and marketing for Trijicon, which is based in Wixom, Michigan, said the inscriptions "have always been there" and said there was nothing wrong or illegal with adding them. Munson said the issue was being raised by a group that is "not Christian." The company has said the practice began under its founder, Glyn Bindon, a devout Christian from South Africa who was killed in a 2003 plane crash.


'It violates the Constitution'
The company's vision is described on its Web site: "Guided by our values, we endeavor to have our products used wherever precision aiming solutions are required to protect individual freedom."
"We believe that America is great when its people are good," says the Web site. "This goodness has been based on Biblical standards throughout our history, and we will strive to follow those morals."

Spokespeople for the U.S. Army and the Marine Corps both said their services were unaware of the biblical markings. They said officials were discussing what steps, if any, to take in the wake of the ABCNews.com report. It is not known how many Trijicon sights are currently in use by the U.S. military.

The biblical references appear in the same type font and size as the model numbers on the company's Advanced Combat Optical Guides, called the ACOG.

A photo on a Department of Defense Web site shows Iraqi soldiers being trained by U.S. troops with a rifle equipped with the bible-coded sights.

"It's wrong, it violates the Constitution, it violates a number of federal laws," said Michael "Mikey" Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group that seeks to preserve the separation of church and state in the military.


'Firearms of Jesus Christ'
"It allows the Mujahedeen, the Taliban, al Qaeda and the insurrectionists and jihadists to claim they're being shot by Jesus rifles," he said.
Weinstein, an attorney and former Air Force officer, said many members of his group who currently serve in the military have complained about the markings on the sights. He also claims they've told him that commanders have referred to weapons with the sights as "spiritually transformed firearm[s] of Jesus Christ."

He said coded biblical inscriptions play into the hands of "those who are calling this a Crusade."

According to a government contracting watchdog group, fedspending.org, Trijicon had more than $100 million in government contracts in fiscal year 2008. The Michigan company won a $33 million Pentagon contract in July, 2009 for a new machine gun optic, according to Defense Industry Daily. The company's earnings from the U.S. military jumped significantly after 2005, when it won a $660 million long-term contract to supply the Marine Corps with sights.

"This is probably the best example of violation of the separation of church and state in this country," said Weinstein. "It's literally pushing fundamentalist Christianity at the point of a gun against the people that we're fighting. We're emboldening an enemy."


Copyright � 2010 ABC News Internet Ventures

I beat you to it!

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...JN8_12_The_Conspiracy_Theory#Post3691884

I vote for DE33:11 and DE33:29 .

Probably lose the mil contract over it.
They could have been subtler.

I have no problem with it being there. Why it's news is beyond me - particularly when compared to what else has happened in the last 2 weeks.

Let's hope they don't lose the contract.

Personally, I think Trijicon makes the best 3 dot night sights available, I won't have anything else on my handguns.

I don't have any personal experience with the ACOG, but I hear it is outstanding, as well.

Good, maybe they'll have an overstock sale. JK

Anything to help the enemy, I guess.

This plays right into Bin Ladens hands. Some people are looking forward to Armageddon, anyway.

Might review the Sepoy mutiny in India when the British ALLIES mutinied based solely on the rumor that the cartridges were greased with pork fat.

Seems like a reasonable parallel.

As a business decision, they should furnish the equipment as specified, without the editorial comment, or let someone else compete to make the product.

Sycamore

My guess too..The issue of religion is a powder keg in Afghanistan, so this seems beyond dumb...

Not too bothered what the bad guys think over there, but its the sort of stupid thing that get blown out of all proportion and is used as propaganda by the enemy to sway otherwise neutral or friendly locals to the Taliban cause..

Given these sights are also used by the Afghan National Army, I wonder what can of worms its openning there?? if you think its not important remember the Indian Mutiny in the 1850's which in part was caused by the Sepoys believing the cartridges the British issued were greased with pig and cow fat..

How long before I am not allowed to have "RC" on my dog tags?

Completely different issue!

Agreed,Pete.

Although I don't (personally) have a problem with Trijicon's actions,I can certainly see how this could be a problem for us over there.

"....said Weinstein. "It's literally pushing fundamentalist Christianity at the point of a gun ..."

I always wonder what the term, "fundamentalist Christianity" means to people that are upset over some contentious issue. I will be the first to say there are some pretty obnoxious behaviors done "in the name of Christianity".... but I also believe than "the opposition" views anyone who doesn't believes that, all world religions <or no religion> are just as valid and in most cases far more "progressive" and "inclusive" than those nasty fundamentalists are...

My position is that someone who believes in everything really believes in nothing... I have Trijicons on a Kahr and a Dan Wesson 1911... just decided I need a set for the FNP 9.

The ACOG is too rich for my blood at the moment... but if they do lose their contract over this and need to sell some of those off at a significantly reduced price... I'd likely step up and give them some more of my business...

If people are pizzed they got shot with a bible verse on the scope - how long before they are pizzed they got shot by someone with a religion on their chest?

Ain't saying it's right or wrong - but I've seen enough of lefty politics and can generally guess where it will head.

The funny thing is that the separation of church and state law is suppose to keep the state out of the church not the other way around.

The point is, you're not supposed to put RC on THEIR dog tags!

How about a nice advert for Halliburton, or Jimmy Swaggart Institute on your issue MRAP?

The US bought those sights according to Mil-Spec, not to include any editorial content.


Sycamore

The people that don't like it don't need to use them let them go back to iron sights and ghost rings. Whoops ghost rings may be spiritual?

I see no problem with them using whatever numbering scheme they want to track production lots.

Honestly, if they've always done it, it's been there since before the contract was awarded. I say much ado about nothing.

I'd like to see where in the Constitution it says no religious references are allowed....

Think about it, the Constitution must allow all religious references. To do otherwise, like prohibit all references, would be to establish a single religion, Atheism.

Everyone who's ever read the Bill of Rights knows it says "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." It doesn't say seperation of church and state anywhere.

That it is!

"It's literally pushing fundamentalist Christianity at the point of a gun ..."

And yet it was so subtle, that no one had a clue it was on there.


"Spokespeople for the U.S. Army and the Marine Corps both said their services were unaware of the biblical markings.

To be honest, that aspect of this saga is a none-issue. If these sights were only for use in the US by a peace time army, I'd be sitting having a chuckle at the stupidity of it all.

However thats not the context of how these sights will be used and any bad feeling generated amung the locals, the police and the ANA could end up costing American (and British) lives...

Its for the exactly the same reasons that British Commanders banned our troops wearing "offensive" T-Shirts in theatre..
It only takes one local to feel insulted and keep quite about an EOD or ambush location, and it will cost lives...

Of course if everyone shut their mouth about it - they wouldn't ever know about the verse to begin with...

I still truly wonder how this story warranted "an ABC News investigation". You know if the scopes had anything supporting allah printed on them there would be no comments at all from the MSM. I'm glad I'm retired 'cause I'd sure find the negativity of this article very disheartening.

We aren't on a Crusade? And it's not about oil and preserving a British empire's holding(Kuwait).
What was I thinking?

2 Samuel 22:35 "He trains my hands for battle; my arms can bend a bow of bronze."

The question must be asked, has anyone that has been shot with one complained?

This has been on ACOG for some time and is as far as I'm concerned a nonissue. The muzzies were mad before 9/11 and as far as I can perceive they will continue to be PO'ed until all the Western world converts.

Those who live in America, the Great Satan, are infidels no matter what we shoot them with and that is according the muzies.

It certainly does nothing advantageous. Mushashi was right, when he said "do no unnecessary thing."

On a side note, check out NSN 9925-01-353-8791.

I just did a price check from Optics Planet on the ACOG... $1149.00... anyone with first hand experience with one of these on an AR?

+1. Typical politically correct BS.

The only thing I'll say is why risk it. Dick around and get your contract yanked and then what are going to be putting on some rifles....tasco's?

Yep.

anyone read the home page of hodgdon powder ?

referance's to god there...
i am not offended, kinda happy american companys publicly state their beliefs.

god bless america !
in god we trust !

just for a start ...

where else in gooberment is the name god found ?
company logo's ?
sayings ?

let's start a list.

you go trijicon !

I was a paratrooper with the 82nd back in the day and anything that would help me stay alive in a combat zone is an asset. I don't care what writing it had on it. I don't think the solders will care either. It will be a travesty if the military takes the sights away from the people who need them the most because of a politically motivated stunt.
D

+1

Yep...Besides, that phrase isn't in the Constitution.

It supposedly originated from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802.

The Supreme Court quoted it from the Bench in 1878.

In 1947, a number of cases in the Supreme Court began to incorporate it into law based on the quote in 1878, to the extent now that most believe the phrase is directly from the Constitution.

PS. I had to look up the dates.

One of the sparks of the Sepoy Rebellion in India was the rumor amongst the Hindu and Muslim troops that the paper cartridges used in the British Enfield rifles were greased with either pork or beef fat. I hope there is no futher parallel here.

Are the Bible verse numbers only on the military contract versions, or were they there on the civilian models, and the models the troops were buying with their own money?

BW beat me to it. Around here, many reservists bought their own before they went over. How's that work if the military yanks them?

On another note, the people who ran with this at ABC need to be hung for treason. this isn't the same as faking a story about GWs military record. They know making this a big story is probably going to get kids killed. God save their souls.

Do you suppose this is something that can be fixed with a little bench grinder-fu?

- Tom

maybe Weinstein would prefer "made in china" on the sites helping to preserve his freedom.

maybe someone should explain to Mushashi, and you, that Trijicon might think this action is necessary.

There's no bible verses on the ACOGs, just numbers of verses embedded in the SN's, all of them light related (on an optic, get it?) They've always been there, at least for many years and there's one on mine (doesn't offend me though I'm not relgious). PS: to whoever asked ACOG's are awesome on AR's once you get the both-eyes-open method down.

BTW our ties to the Crusades always makes a convenient whipping boy excuse, but really what they hate most about us is our decadence, especially as manifested and spread by enticing technology which is the gateway drug. That's the *real* threat, and don't think that they don't know it.

Welcome to bizarre-o-world..

So what who cares as long as it kills the enemy....

So if some Saudi prince bought this company and decided to put some etchings from the Koran on the sights, ya'll would be totally fine with it?

i am not a stock holder in either parties endevor to sale thier wares.

I'd probably care as usual that some foreign company was producing them, and try to buy American instead, but a Saudi company wouldn't particularly bother me (I think China's a bigger threat in the big picture, economically and militarily, but I don't get overly worked up about that either).

Besides, they aren't quotes, just numbered references to quotes, and the quotes themselves are entirely harmless, referring cutely to passages talking about light (as in e.m. waves). So, no I wouldn't mind.

Think it through.
What military hardware do we get from Saudi Arabia?

Watched a documentary the other day called Constantine's Sword regarding religion in the u.s. air force. But, more than that it examines the history of Christianity and the role of religion in war fare.

this is just another example of how the entire country has to " be concerned" about what might bother the political left, the so called "politically correct", atheists... or just any old plain 'pain in the ass" individual with a big mouth that needs to get public attention..

My response would be 'if you don't like it Weinstein, then go and join your fellow anti American, anti Christian buddies in Al Quida'

I have never considered a Trijicon scope in the past, but based on this, it will be on the top of my list for the next time I need to upgrade optics.

I don't shove religion or belief in God down people's throats, but why in the heck are we supposed to have the anti Christian Views of Atheists crammed down our throats?

Based on this, I think Trijicon would be awarded MORE contracts to provide sighting systems for our soldiers in uniform!

Pete,

what in the world can our soldiers do that DOESN'T PISS OFF THESE MUSLIMS....

They piss in their pants and scream jihad, when any westerner comes to their country and brings anything that can be referred as having any christian reference.

at the same time, Muslims come to our countries and the entire population is suppose to bend over backwards to cater to their religion.

Personally, I believe in treating them and respecting their religion, in the exact same fashion as they treat and respect ours..

They don't want Islam pissed on, then don't piss on Christianity.
Other wise, I think Muslims should be treated like they treat Christians in their country.

In their countries, mere possession of a bible can mean the individual can have their hand amputated or have their life taken.

So we ought to make laws stating the mere possession of the Koran can cause the individual to have his hand amputated or his life taken.

Apply their rules to our society's attitudes toward them. See how they like it.

When they complain, we can justify it, by say we are just following your guy's lead.

It would sure clean all the Muslims out of Europe and North America real quick.

Muslim countries are the ones who are 'making it about the oil' when they decide to sell it to only countries who cater to their demands.

I say the west either needs to do one of two things about it..
put energy and resources 100% into alternative power sources...
or secondly, just take the damn stuff.

The west needs to counter apply the Islamic's worlds attitudes right back into their laps.
and all it would be doing is just adopting the Islamic view points and putting it right back in their laps, and then we can see how tolerant they are of being on the receiving end of their BS..

When we've come to the point of worrying about making our enemies mad or offending them by what we have on our weapons that are meant to kill them, I'd say we're screwed.

I'ma an Atheist and I could care less. I have a number of Trijicon sights. I buy them because they work.

But I can see the concern for propaganda for the Islamic world. 'Crusade' is frequently used to whip up anti-American sentiment. I know that some of you believe we are in a war against Islam, but when you are in an Islamic country and trying to gain support from the locals, wearing your religion ( a foreign one) on your sleeve is probably not helping win the 'hearts and minds'.

I wonder what people would be saying if there were verses from the Koran printed on military equipment provided by a contractor?

There it is, "hearts and minds".

You know its only a quirk of fate you were born in the US of A.

Had things beeen a little different, you could have been one of those towel heads screaming about Islam and attacking Christianity and everything none Muslim...

Somehow I think you would have fitted right in!

Just goes to show, God is on his side

"Military officials said the citations don't violate the ban and they won't stop using the telescoping sights, which allow troops to pinpoint the enemy day or night."

That's good enough for me!!

Where did you find that quote? Got a link???

Makes me think of the guy with the 03 sniper rifle in "Saving Private Ryan" as he quoted the bible as he did his work.

dont see an issue......not like a verse is printed on the side of the thing......they use a code of their choosing in the serial number and sounds like they have from day one.....if there was an issue because of it it should have been brought up long before now.....i say carry on and i dont set foot in a church if i can help it......

I conducted a search and pulled up 85 hits.The article was originally written by the AP.

Heres a link to the AP article on Yahoo news.

Exactly. We are either there to help the locals an fight terrorists, or we are there as conquerers. If the former, we have to form a relationship with the locals. If the latter, it doesn't matter.

Which is it?

I must congratulate Trijicon on their fine products and their commitment to a higher standard. I really don't care what the nay-sayers have to say.

are the scopes only issued to persons who indicate they are christians?
there are a considerable number of other faiths represented in the US military family.
A brotherhood of arms who apparently cares only for those of one specific faith doesnt sound very representative to me.
I dont think i would much care for being a Jewish 0311 and having anothers religious views shoved into my face everytime i looked thru my issued optic.
perhaps we should just stop allowing anyone but born again christians to serve...
thats gonna cut down on the number of interpreters a bit, huh?

quite obvious by this bigoted crowd that they wouldnt want to share a fighting hole with anyone other than a white republican pro-life [bleep] hating bible beater.
or that none have ever had thier life in anything resembling a combat zone anyway.
But, since I have served i can have an opinion. i dont think that i would much care for a service provider preaching thier own personal beliefs on me while i am fighting.
I guess its just lucky trijicons not a pro OBAMA group. I wonder if the company who provides spoons for the chow hall were to emblazen the silverware with cherokee spiritual symbols if everone would be as approving?

A spokesman for U.S. Central Command, which manages military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, said the sights don't violate the ban on proselytizing because there's no effort to distribute the equipment beyond the U.S. troops who use them.

"This situation is not unlike the situation with U.S. currency," said the spokesman, Air Force Maj. John Redfield. "Are we going to stop using money because the bills have 'In God We Trust' on them? As long as the sights meet the combat needs of troops, they'll continue to be used."

oo rah.

'In God We Trust' is an ambiguous reference.
verses from one specific text of one specific religion is NOT the same.
What if Humvee tires had "Bhagavad Gita (Chapter IV-7)*" embossed in the sidewalls?


*Yada yada hi dharmasya
Glanir bhavati bharata
Abhyutthanam adharmasya
Tadatmanam srjamy aham
(Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion--at that time I descend Myself.)

What if they had "inna godda davida embossed on them?


I am OK with the Trijicon etchings because they are from the Christian Bible. I have no problem acknowledging that my God is the one true God and a jealous God. I'm rigid that way.

I don't hate those that believe otherwise.

Feel free to render your own biases as you see fit.

That's just dumb...

Does this mean our snipers have tp take the scopes off of their rifles because they have "cross" hair reticles?

Let's hear it for Major Redfield. Common sense and good judgement at its finest.

Good to hear that!!!

I liked the article because they called the AR a "Jesus Rifle" as it sounds much better than "evil black rifle." Now there is a PC name we can use!

Could you imagine any one complaining in WWII if the M1 Garand came with "Adolph's Little Gift" engraved on the receiver?

Quite frankly I feel the more militiant muslims we flush out of the woodwork and kill today will make for less we have to kill in the future. Western thought and Islam will never co-exist.

Of course, you would have refused to use such an optic?

Article Three of the Bill of Rights allows freedom of religion, speech and right to assemble. Nowhere does it state that a Christian does not have the right to express themselves. Americans are free to worship or not, as they choose. Always seems it's the people this Bill of Rights originally tried to defend are the ones trying to take away that right.
And to those who "served" (Ringworm), you are thanked and appreciated for that service but not granted rights others do not have. Implying that service grants rights or enables one to disagree with and over rule others carries no weight. Get your head out of your rectum for a brief period and you may realize that many served, as I did, long before you came along.
How can anyone be offended by JN8:12 inscripted on something? You are searching desperately for something to be offended by. Trijicon just earned my optics business.

+1

Good for Trijicon. no great for Trijicon

I doubt seriously that the Iraqis or Afghans give a [bleep] about the cryptic message on the rifle sights we are giving them. We have been giving both local and national government officials hundreds of millions of dollars to rent the peace for almost ten years. "In god we trust" is truly a universal phrase.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/21406.html

I have two commercial Trijicon scopes. One a 1X4 the other a 2.5X10 both Accupoints, both with Bible verses. One Old Testament one New Testament. I think I might go get another one.

Brown wins.. the military doesn't bail on Trijicon... it's a good night.

The new slogan (Invest in God buy Trijicon).

The local blue tribe was Pissing and moaning about this today. My take is you don't like it take it off your battle rifle and use the irons. Not my choice but have at it your life in the balance not mine.

This is a candidate for "Dumbest post ever on the Campfire" award.

bwhahahah

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the separation of church and state was only a prohibition against the establishment of a state religion, i.e. a requirement that office holders or property holders belong to a religion. This separation had been an issue in colonial America, because it barred folks like Baptists and Quakers and such from participating in politics. Way too often this concept has been lately corrupted into a freedom from religion, or a proscription of religious practice in public. This is the antithesis of the Founding Fathers' intent.

If an Army contractor wants to put "secret Jesus codes" on its sights, and the Army wants to accept the sights, that's not a breach of the constitution-- not its letter nor its intent.

If the DOD doesn't want this sort of thing to happen, they need to specify it in the contracts. If it is not in the specifications, then they have no recourse except to eat the scopes. My guess is that the military either does not care, or is quietly supportive.

#1 no. i would not refuse a lawful order.
#2 i was taught to engage targets out to 500 yards w/ iron sights, thank you, so i dont NEED one.
#3 i dont practice a religion therfore it wouldnt make a bit of difference to me. But there are good people, fine Americans who serve in the military BUT who dont happen to be born again christians. i dont think its right to push your little zombie jesus sect on them.

but then again i do my own thinking, so your gonna have a hard time grasping the overall concept.
go pray on it.

Reading between the lines here, I think you resent (resented) serving with Christians.

I guess if you make it sound like all the white republican pro-life [bleep] hating Bible beater's resent you, rather than have any sort of compassion, than you feel a little less guilty about your own prejudice.

What's the issue with having a Bible verse annotation on a piece of equipment? No one's making you read the actual verse.

Maybe, rather than having scrawl some letters and numbers on a piece of equipment, you'll just take comfort in knowing that the white republican pro-life [bleep] hating Bible beaters are praying for you.

The issue is really very simply defined:

1. The Constitution was intended to prohibit the establishment of a national religion. Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance) wrote on this extensively indicating that the establishment of religion ultimately requires the choosing of a particular denomination of Christianity as happened in Europe. Madison and the Founders recognized that the morality of this nation was based on the Bible (sufficient citations have been given in other threads to irrefutably prove this to honest people). In case no one noticed yet, our morals and laws are not based on the Koran. So firstly the Constitution was intended to prevent the establishment of denominational Christianity.

Secondly it was intended to provide freedom of worship and private religious faith. The establishment of Christianity would preclude other faith expressions.

2. The Constitution was never intended to separate the nation from Biblical morality, for it was founded upon Biblical morality ... again...(sufficient citations have been given in other threads to irrefutably prove this to honest people).

3. The early institutions portray (such as the ten commandments in courtrooms, Supreme Court case decisions referencing the Bible, money inscriptions, days of prayer and fasting, political addresses in Congress and public) a close relationship to the Scripture.

While because of a general recognition of this truth the question has seldom been presented to the courts, yet we find that in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, it was decided that, Christianity, general Christianity, is, and always has been, a part of the common law� not Christianity with an established church� but Christianity with liberty of conscience to all men.
United States Supreme Court (February 29, 1892), in the case of Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 US 457-458, 465-471, 36 L ed 226, Justice Josiah Brewer rendered the high court�s decision:


4. The Bible itself does not make any denominational statements as it is not a denominational book. The principles of the NT (NT is the authoritative revelation for faith and practice) show faith as voluntary, but morality indispensable. Our Founders took the same position.

5. The position of Trijicon is in harmony with the Constitution, the Bible, our Laws, our historical character and culture, and our religious freedoms.

6. The early Colonials in the battle of Springfield at one point ran out paper wadding for their muskets and a local church donated their hymnals for the paper, with the pastoral instructions to the troops to "give 'em Watts, boys." Our country was founded upon pointing Scripture at those who would obstruct our freedoms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Springfield_(1780)

[i]On April 18, 1775 John Adams and John Hancock were at the home of Rev. Jonas Clarke, a Lexington pastor and militia leader. That same night Paul Revere arrived to warn them of the approaching Redcoats. The next morning British Major Pitcairn shouted to an assembled regiment of Minutemen; "Disperse, ye villains, lay down your arms in the name of George the Sovereign King of England." The immediate response of Rev. Jonas Clarke or one of his company was:

"We recognize no Sovereign but God and no King but Jesus."[/i]

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ!" Patrick Henry

* The issue with Trijicon is only an issue because we have either: forgotten our history, ignored our history, never knew our history, or are opposed to our historical understandings of the relationship of Church and State.

im not a born again christian, hell dont think i classify as a christian in any stretch of the imagination most days, i flat out hate those that try to force their religion on me......HOWEVER i fail to see how using a [bleep] biblical referance in a damn serial number is forcing anything on me cause short of the [bleep] thing getting stolen i aint paying attention to the serial number, ain like the whole damn outer casing is inscribed with versus or that they pop up in your vision when yah look through the damn thing......some ppl are way to sensitive on this sorta thing, grow a thicker hide and get over it.....

I,m having a hard time grasping how you continue to post stupid, just plain dumb replies. You state that your capacity to engage a target out to 500 yards equals that of another using optics. Meet one of your buddies tonight around 10:00, go out back and engage targets up to 500 yards. You will of course be using iron sites and he will be using thermal imaging/thermal contrasting optics. Bet a can of suds on each target but stop at 24; hate to see your buddy have to carry home more than his weapon and a case of beer! Now see if YOU can catch up with the overall concept. Just as the inscriptions refer, YOU should start seeing a small light!

Further evidence of how f'd up all these people in the middle east, and politically correct liberals are...

Very well researched and stated.
This country has been blessed by the grace of God, not by the hard work or feeble attempts of it's citizens. As the minority denying God increases, those same blessings decrease. History and the Bible show specifically what happens to a country when that occurs. Christians are not the minority but The Silent Majority. That should be considered by all!

I would be willing to bet if the SN referenced a verse from the Koran nothing would be said from these Liberal Carrot-sucker.

You would probably hear a loud squeal from those defending their right to do that. ACLU would post a threat to sue anyone protesting that right! But since poor old Ringworm doesn't practice a religion, "it wouldn't make a bit of difference" to him.

There are two distinct groups of US military in Afghanistan at this moment.

ISAF =hugging and kissing everyone
OEF = get to have all the fun

Both use Trijicon optics and I still do not see how their reference to a religious quote in their part numbers is an issue? I would understand if the quote was on there or even if the reference number was easily visible but neither are the case so who gives a [bleep]?

BTW, this story is now 23 years old....ABC just felt compelled to recycle it. As if the freaking jihadi you shoot cares what's written on your ACOG.....or gets close enough to read it.

As a Christian, If you were a soldier and you found a reference to the Koran or some other religious book on a bit of GI kit, how you feel about that?

man i didnt think chrisianity was doing so poorly that they needed to advertise to guys in combat.
If your jesus is really the ticket i would think that the need to secret bible verses on combat soldiers equipment wouldnt be nessasary.
sorry to hear about the drop in popularity guys. i will try to me more sympathetic. Maybe some of those miricles would bring some more sheep to the slaughter, i mean flock.

heres a couple of things that you could do to increase membership.
explain were all that dang water got to after the flood.
cure childhood lukima.
lower membership fee. i mean 10%??? really? in this economy?
quit trying to convince EVERYONE that your god is the GOD and all the other gods are the devil.

once again i fail to see how a manufacture choosing to run his serial numbers in this way forces anything on anyone......to think it does is flat idiotic.....once again this is the opinion of a non-christian......to get wrapped up in it tells me yah either have no life, or no problems in yours to have the time to beotch about it......i aint for forcing beliefs on others but fail to see how a coded serial number does just that.....

I have a pistol with a swastika on it, should I throw it away?

Unlike the issued optic we are discussing ...
I didnt pay for it your pistol the taxs of my labor, so no, i dont expect you to throw it away.
A Jewish person who is having thier tax dollars used to promote christianity would likely not agree with the tactic.
Anyone who cant understand that is an idiot or so filled up w/ the wholey casper they cast see st8.

you really that insecure with your beliefs that you cant tolerate a [bleep] serial number? something the company has done from day one and not just special for the US military?

Hey guys, we are not fully understanding poor old Ringworms thinking process! I think he may have either stumbled onto something or fell backwards into it. Sounds like what he is saying may imply (by using his rationing) that if a weapon with such a sight is recovered by the Jihad, they would refuse to use it because of the Biblical annotation cast onto it. That would serve to better protect our troops (Trijicon may have planned this all along!). Golly gee Ringworm, thanks for lifting us to this higher level of thought. By the way, your responses seem to imply your future is pretty securely established.

Be American, Stay American, Die American, NO MORE PC period.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvp3zAPraF4

Gunsights' biblical references concern US and UK forces

Coded references to biblical passages are inscribed on gunsights widely used by the US and British military in Iraq and Afghanistan, it has emerged.

The markings include "2COR4:6" and "JN8:12", relating to verses in the books of II Corinthians and John.

Trijicon, the US-based manufacturer, was founded by a devout Christian, and says it runs to "Biblical standards".

But military officials in the US and UK have expressed concern over the way the markings will be perceived.

The company had been adding the references to its sights for many years, but the issue surfaced only recently when soldiers complained to an advocacy group, an ABC News investigation found.

Raised lettering

Versions of Trijicon's Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight (Acog) are used by the US Special Operations Forces, the US Marine Corps and the US Army.

Britain's Ministry of Defence has just ordered 480 Acog sights for use on its new Sharpshooter rifles - to be used by troops in Afghanistan. Other versions of the Acog sight are "widely in service", the ministry says.

The inscriptions are subtle and appear in raised lettering at the end of the stock number.

John 8:12 reads: "When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, 'I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

The nod to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians, found on the company's Reflex sight, references the text: "For God, who said, 'Let light shine out of darkness,' made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ."

An MoD spokesman told the BBC the ministry appreciated the biblical references could cause offence and was talking to its supplier, but was "not aware at the time of purchase that these markings had any broader significance".

'Propaganda tool'

The US Defense Department is a major customer of Trijicon's, signing deals for $66m (�40.3m) of the company's products in 2009 alone.

The US Marine Corps told the BBC they were "concerned with how this may be perceived" and were meeting with the company to "discuss future sight procurements".

The US Army said it was looking into any potential policy violation.

The issue has been thrust into the spotlight by the US Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF) - an advocacy group that seeks to preserve the separation of church and state in the military.

On 14 January, the MRFF received an e-mail, purportedly from a Muslim US Army infantryman, complaining about the markings.

"Many soldiers know of them and are very confused as to why they are there and what it is supposed to mean."

The email adds: "Everyone is worried that if they were captured in combat that the enemy would use the Bible quotes against them in captivity or some other form of propaganda."

MRFF president Mikey Weinstein says the inscriptions could give the Taliban and other enemy forces a propaganda tool.

"I don't have to wonder for a nanosecond how the American public would react if citations from the Koran were being inscribed onto these US armed forces gunsights instead of New Testament citations," he said.

A Trijicon spokesman told the BBC the company "has been working to provide America's military men and women with high quality, innovative sighting systems for the weapons they use".

"Our effort is simple and straightforward: to help our servicemen and women win the war on terror and come home safe to their families.

"As part of our faith and our belief in service to our country, Trijicon has put scripture references on our products for more than two decades.

"As long as we have men and women in danger, we will continue to do everything we can to provide them with both state-of-the-art technology and the never-ending support and prayers of a grateful nation," the spokesman added.

The company states on its website: "We believe that America is great when its people are good. This goodness has been based on biblical standards throughout our history and we will strive to follow those morals."

So it seems that the story has been brought to the fore again by an American soldier, a Muslim, who objects, just in the same way people here would objct if a reference to the Koran appeared.

Personally, I don'nt care if there was a religious ref or an advert for Micky D's on the scopes, it really doesn't bother me..

What does bother me, as I stated in an earlier post, is this could be a propaganda own goal for our Forces in the Middle East and our Allies the ANA and Afghan Police. It is that aspect and that aspect alone which I have issues over.

You can at least appreciate the Biblical references to "light" being used though right?

I think that it will really suck if Trijicon loses the contract over this.
Yeah, I can appreciate Pete E's point of view, as he does make some good arguements-on the other hand, I cannot help but think that this thing is being blown out of proportion.
JMO.

when you start worrying about offending the delicate sensibilities of people who bomb mosques and murder their fellow Muslims by the thousands, you've already lost.


the failure of the West to take pride in and defend the symbols of its own civilization is seen as weakness by our adversaries. Get over it.

I have to agree.
If we don't even have the gumption to stand up for our own values or even symbols of our values, what makes us think we have the guts to win the war??
???

Let the market sort it out.

In my opinion, Bible references on government-issued gear is a no-no. I wouldn't personally throw a conniption if my duty rifle was so equipped but it would disturb me- same as if it had quotes from ANY religion on it.

So, let the market sort it out... deny them the contracts and I bet the references will go away pronto. Or, someone else will provide a gunsite with no references.

Letting the market sort it out isn't the same as denying the contracts.

Seems to me, denying the contracts because the makers are Christian and express it, is religious discrimination.....

Very well stated.

Screw those Muslim murdering jackasses as well as the whining Weinstein.I'm disgusted with political correctness and the morons who continue to perpetrate their ignorant theories on the citizens of this nation.

Well look at his posts JO is a religion basher that just couldn't let that one go.

what ever happened to ridiculing and humiliating your enemies and the spoils of war?

A spokesman for U.S. Central Command, which manages military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, said the sights don't violate the ban on proselytizing because there's no effort to distribute the equipment beyond the U.S. troops who use them.

What is it about this statement don't you understand.

I have no problem with them putting the references on their product. That's their business.

I do have a problem with government-issue gear having Bible (or Koran... or Buddhist... or...) references on it. That's a clear violation of seperation of church and state.

(I mean if the rifle the government gives you has religious references stamped on it, how is that NOT the government favoring a religion? Fair question.)

As I said, there's a simple solution. Apply the Constitution fairly (government shall not favor a religion), tell Trijicon that, and let them decide if their religous principals are worth the millions of dollars to them, or not.

Let's put this in broader terms. The government buys all kinds of equipment, from cars to desks to computers.

Would it be proper if you, as a government employee, had to log on to a government-issue computer that automatically put Bible references on the screen? Or, you had to sit at a desk with Bible references molded into the top? Nope, it would not.

This is the same, exact, thing.

Too funny. I'm not pushing anything on anyone nor is the Army. Go cry in your milk.

so you also object to your tax dollars being used to procure:
NSN 9925-01-353-8791
Nomenclature: BOOK,HOLY KORAN

If I'm understanding this right, they ARE pushing it on soldiers.

Can a soldier turn down the rifle they are issued?

First, there is no verse inscribed on the sight.

same question to you...
so you also object to your tax dollars being used to procure:
NSN 9925-01-353-8791
Nomenclature: BOOK,HOLY KORAN

You can create all the ficticious scenarios that you like.The facts still stand.


Military officials said "the citations don't violate the ban and they won't stop using the telescoping sights, which allow troops to pinpoint the enemy day or night."

No, I don't, because those Korans are not issued to troops. They are given to troops who ask for them, in the same way that the military will provide a Bible.

I would object, mightily, if each soldier was required to carry a Bible or Koran.

If you were apprised of the information I posted previously you would realize how bogus all your points are.

The real question is whether you have a problem with America...who we are...and who you are...

Are you truly American in perspective? If so you would have no problem with this.

The Koran has no relationship to our constitution and the Bible does.

It's not a rifle, it's an optic. To the soldiers it was just a number. No one knew what it was until some douche decided to stir the pot. Is the serial # even visible?

Arguing this is pointless.

Thunderstick,

You need to stick to facts. You are letting emotion rule you. The fact is, government-issue gear that a person has no choice about carrying should not favor a religion. ANY religion.

Show me where in the Constitution it says that the government can favor a religion. 'Cause I can show you where it says it cannot:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

It's essentially part of the weapon, as issued.

Well, it's not just a number anymore, is it?

Amazing how you "conservatives" are so willing to ignore the constitution when it suits your Bible-thumping tendancies...

Yep.
I respect JO's right to practice/believe how ever he see's fit, but I not quite sure I understand why he gets so offended at anything remotely resembling Christianity in this country?
??

The military also has a long-standing tradition of having chaplains who use the Bible among the troops ... but we do not have a history of Muftis, Mullahs, Sanghas, Rabbis, Shamans, etc...yet??

Bullshit.
Nothing in the consitution prohibits a military contractor from putting itsy, bitsy numbering on weapons used by our troops in combat.
Get off your high-horse, Mr. Olsen.

or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

There is no law requiring Bible verses on rifles but you would wish to violate the right of a company's free exercise of religion

Have you ever considered interpreting the Constitution within the original context of Founders? or considered reading subsequent precedent for interpretation?
Consider thinking within the historical context of America and outside the ACLU box...because they were not even around then.

Any interpretation of the first part which violates the second part of the phrase is a typical bogus liberal interpretation.

No, I don't think he has,Thunderstick.
I wish ol Jeff would give it a try, he might learn something...

"Military officials said the citations don't violate the ban and they won't stop using the telescoping sights, which allow troops to pinpoint the enemy day or night."

A spokesman for U.S. Central Command, which manages military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, said "the sights don't violate the ban on proselytizing because there's no effort to distribute the equipment beyond the U.S. troops who use them."


At this point it appears that you're whining.

No high horse, Tim.

But step aside from the emotions here and look at this rationally.

Could Colt forge Bible references onto government-issue M16 lowers which troops are then compelled to carry? Would that be OK? Are Americans out there pushing the Bible at the point of an M16, with it forged right into the metal?!

How about the other examples I mentioned (computer screens, desktops, etc). Would that be OK?

Honestly. Answer those questions.

If you think that'd be OK, then we just flat disagree and it's probably not worth debating because we are so far off.

If those are NOT OK from your point of view, then please explain how this is different.

Thanks.

Care to point out the part of the constitution that it is at odds with?

I said a prayer once before going into battle as a US Marine. I did it with the vast majority of my battalion. Whoop-de-freaking-do.

Separation of church and state is a myth that is nowhere to be found in the Constitution of the United States of America. Deal with it.

I have no problem with those examples you list, Jeff.
Now, if it were the Armed forces or some other government agency were mandating that anyone practice a certain religion, or read the bible, or rest on the Sabbath, I think that would be violating someone's civil rights-you may think that my examples and your listed examples are only different in magnitude, but I flat won't buy it.

I firmly, 100%, believe that this country was founded on CHRISTIAN principles, and the systemic attack by the ACLU and others on those values are doing this country grave harm.

I do agree, I don't think I can have a rational debate with you on this Jeff, as we are on opposite ends of this arguement, obviously.
However, no disrespect intended, as I hope you are aware!

Carry on.

Thunder, it'd be easier to "speak" with you if you'd use normal print and fonts.

First of all, what "military officials" say about "telescoping sights" (uh... no) is not relevant. Since when do military officials decide matters of Constitutionality?? More to the point... since when do we WANT military officials deciding matters of constitutionality?

Second of all, there are two issues with the proselytizing. While it may be that we aren't issueing these to foriegners who might be offended, we ARE issueing them to Americans, and that's point one. The second issue is that whether we are giving them to others isn't really relevant; we are making war on others, with government-issued rifles with Bible references stamped on them.

If government money is being spent on something, it needs to be religion-neutral. Period.

Of course I'm aware Tim! No worries.

OK, so let me make sure I'm understanding you.

You are saying that in your view, it'd be fine for government employees, to be forced to use government-issued equipment and supplies, with Bible references stamped/printed/molded into them... and you don't see that as a clear violation of the Constitutional seperation of church and state?

By the way, NEBassman posted some great quotes from the Founders showing that they very clearly intended the State to be religion-neutral.

With all due respect, ya'll have got your Bible goggles on.

I know this pisses you guys off but try and be rational about it! THINK.

Jeff O, 340Boy has a valid point in that the markings were not mandated by Congress through legislation to be there. If Congress had passed legislation requiring biblical passages to be on the scopes then the government would likely be "respecting an establishment of religion" and there might be a problem, but Congress didn't.

This is not like the words "Under God" that Congress added to the pledge of allegiance through legislation during the McCarthy era which is questionable.

Whether of not the these added "codes" on the scopes are a PR problem or not is up to the military to decide. Personally I feel Trijicon should have been up front about it with the military and then moved forward from there.

They aren't forcing anyone to read the bible verses obscurely referenced in a supplier's method of serializing their wares.

What's next - remove the 4,2 and 0 off a clock because at 4:20 it's a reference to pot culture? Surely something we don't want in the armed forces.

That grouping (like any) of numbers only has bible references if you ascribe them to it. Trijicon does, some military members may but until someone pointed it out - to a VAST majority of people it was just the serial number.

There is no "power" or symbolism applied to the numbers unless a person does it for themselves.

You can either see it as a number/letter grouping or a Bible verse - or your sister's bra size - it's what you attribute to it. Much like the swastika means something to the neo Nazis - it means something entirely different to a Buddhist.

Anyone that cries over it and has issue with it - that's because they are ascribing something to it - themselves. No one has forced them to ascribe biblical meanings to that particular word/number group other than themselves. They have a sandy vagina and should look into seeing the medic.

Sorry, doesn't pass the smell test.

Type "2COR4:6" into Google and see what you get. I just did. It is CLEARLY a Bible reference.

Google has pre-conceived notions based on a programmers algorithm.

IF this is so damn obvious - why did it take a "Special Investigation" for you to figure it out? For anyone to figure it out?

Jeff - you are barely one step above Maser as far as useful. Please don't lose your spot.

teal,

Be rational about this.

Government-procured, taxpayer-funded items should be religion-neutral. This is obvious on the face of it.

And on a RIFLE, for Pete's sake, this is extra-true.

You guys are coming at this from an emotional place. Apply some critical thought to it. This is NOT a hard one.

so what? you think computers with arabic keyboards can do that? do you really fall for the faux outrage thing that the murderers put on for the benefit of liberals? Oh, yes....let me wipe these baby brains off my screen so I can type an outraged email about freaking bible references I can't even read on my enemy's weapons.

Jesus wept.

It seems to me that you are the emotional one. You've ascribed "feeling" to a grouping of letters and numbers. Even if I said "2 Corinthians" what exactly is that? It isn't religion, it's not faith - it's a number and word - that's all. It's only when you apply it to something (like a Bible) that it can become the other things.

I don't see the Saudis bitching about taking our money that says "In GOD we trust" on it. Sorry, I really don't think that having some letters and numbers that refer to a biblical verse on the scope is going to make terrorists want to kill us EVEN MORE.

If I were Trijicon, I'd immediately change the model numbers of my scopes. "Oh, you want the Jo(hn) 3:16 scope??. Sure, no problem!" Maybe the government can find some nice scopes in China that don't offend them.

only some kind of religious fanatic would

a)a go to the trouble to read the encrypted bible reference

b)know what it signified

c)go to the trouble to go look it up, or

d)give a rat's ass about it after doing so


and to try to use it as some kind of excuse or explanation for jihadis or say it creates terrorists is beyond absurd.

I hear that they want reticles changed to "X's" cause it looks like a cross, as is...

Doesn't Arabic and whatever they speak in Afghanistan(Pashu?) read from right to left?
If so, and assuming the natives read from right to left- how would those verses mean anything at all??

No change necessary on Jeff's guns - that's how he mounts em

I'm wondering if we should only send soldiers who are atheists to fight the radical Muslims.

Weren't these rifles paid with dollar bills that say "In God we trust"? Think any Afghani's are turning down American greenbacks because of that? How about Iraqi's?

fburgtx beat me to this thought. Sorry.

To Jeff O.
First of all, I usually stay out of arguments like this but this time I'll make an exception.

I'm guesing that you are paid in American dollars and spend every one of them. If so, you are a HIPOCRIT!

To say you have a problem with the military issuing a sight with reference to a bible verse, but yet are more than willing to spend US money with "In God We Trust" written on it!
I'll bet you have some of it in your pocket right now. Must be a miserable life having to carry it around.

once again, its a [bleep] serial number......if thats all it takes to get your panties in a wad, especially something that was obtuse enough to take YEARS to notice your living a pretty pathetic life.....

Tim,

I really do hope its being blown out of all proportion..From the perspective of it being a potential propaganda tool for our enemy's in Afghanistan, that ball is now in play and ball is in the enemy's court so we shall have to wait and see what if anything they do with this...

I shall leave others to argue the various PC / religious issues involved as that doesn't interest me, only the possible implications to our Troops,

Regards,

Peter

I have no problem with Trijicon at all. As a matter of fact, I personaly like what they are doing.
What I do have a problem with is people who condemn Trijicon and the Military for any reference to Christianity, but have no problem spending US dollars. They do have a choice.

I did not write the large font post.

As a private company they can write whatever the &$!# they want on their sights....if some libtard doesn't like it they don't need to buy it. Simple really...but that assumes a liberal ever had an f'in clue.

Go Trijicon!

Pete, those are valid concerns, certainly. And, I believe you are right, the damage is already done, most likely.

I personally think that whoever broke this story should be strung up by their thumbs!

I don't think our enemies care what is written on our optics, cloths, guns, whatever.
They hate us because we are a Christian nation! Always have and always will!
And I have no problem with that.

You boys obviously don't understand.. Jeff O joined the military in his younger days and understands the military.. otherwise he wouldn't be running his mouth about it..

Berret or not, the Girlscouts ain't military.....

what you zealots fail to understand is that there are very good human beings who practice religions other than christianity serving for your pittiful ass's. they dont deserve to be preached to.
your complete in ability to understand another persons point of view shows your immaturity.
either that or you just highball bigots who think the world revolves around jesus.
wake up. as soon as humans have been given the right to choose between christ and and anything else (including nothing) they have chosen the latter.
your obviously scrambling to maintain some hold on the demographics but only seem to be able to slip further and further behind, in the US and globably christ is slipping into 4th at a rapid rate.
perhaps you should quit swinging the snakes around long enough to find out why that is.

couldnt be your message?
must be the delivery.
i must confess...
with the tactics you "christians" show here im not sure i'd buy dollar bills for a dime from you.

Numbers of atheists, agnostics, humanists, deists are up from 14.3 million in 1990 to 34.2 million in 2008, representing a proportionate increase from 8% of the total in 1990 to 15% in 2008.

86% of American adults identified as Christians in 1990 and 76% in 2008.
The challenge to Christianity in the U.S. does not come from other religions but rather from a rejection of all forms of organized religion.


You need an add campaign..

JESUS... THE OTHER WHITE GOD!!!

He needs a fresh new image...

Worm, I served and damned recent so get of your phuggen high horse. No one is being preached to. I am far from a zealot. Non practiceing Catholic is probably the term.

No one I served with had the least issue with Christian services being announced or with non-christian. Calling people to prayer is a hell lot more preaching than letters engraved on a pieve of equipment that no one's noticed for YEARS.

We both shut our holes and respected what the other had going on. Considering I worked with Muslims everyday for 3 years, I think I woulda noticed some issues, were it there.

I'm buying Trijicon from now on.

Again, I have previously shown from a Supreme Court decision that we as a country were founded on the Christian principles of morality and freedom. The Koran for example, does not allow for freedom of religion. Those were the basis of the secular tenets in the Constitution. Our Founders plainly told us this (I gave quotes previously). There is no conflict between the morality which formed a document and the proper interpretation and application of it. When I draft a business document there is no religious language in it, but the document is intended to convey the good business morality of Christianity--provide things honest in the sight of all men.



This was already explained. A state is not to establish religion--which would preclude religious freedom and would require the selection of one particular Christian denomination as well. However there is no doubt that the Founders pointed to Bible as the basis for taking this position. If the Bible was the basis upon which the Constitutional principles were founded, how can you conclude that the Founders were separating the State from the Bible?

Have you thought about the inherent illogic of this position?


---------------------------------------------------------
The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.

President John Adams

The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XIII, p. 292-294. In a letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813

---------------------------------------------------------
In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity

President John Quincy Adams

John Quincy Adams, An Oration Delivered Before the Inhabitants of the Town of Newburyport at Their Request on the Sixty-First Anniversary of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1837 (Newburyport: Charles Whipple, 1837), pp. 5-6.


-----------------------------------------------------------
Elias Boudinot


PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; SIGNED THE PEACE TREATY TO END THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION; FIRST ATTORNEY ADMITTED TO THE U. S. SUPREME COURT BAR; FRAMER OF THE BILL OF RIGHTS; DIRECTOR OF THE U. S. MINT

Let us enter on this important business under the idea that we are Christians on whom the eyes of the world are now turned� [L]et us earnestly call and beseech Him, for Christ�s sake, to preside in our councils. . . . We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, Whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning . . . in order to open the meeting with prayer


Elias Boudinot, The Life, Public Services, Addresses, and Letters of Elias Boudinot, J. J. Boudinot, editor (Boston: Houghton, Mifflin & Co., 1896), Vol. I, pp. 19, 21, speech in the First Provincial Congress of New Jersey.
----------------------------------------------------------

John Dickinson

SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA; GOVERNOR OF DELAWARE; GENERAL IN THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION

[Governments] caould not give the rights essential to happiness� We claim them from a higher source: from the King of kings, and Lord of all the earth.

John Dickinson, The Political Writings of John Dickinson (Wilmington: Bonsal and Niles, 1801), Vol. I, pp. 111-112.

-----------------------------------------------------------


Benjamin Franklin


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION; DIPLOMAT; PRINTER; SCIENTIST; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see


Benjamin Franklin, Works of Benjamin Franklin, John Bigelow, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam�s Sons, 1904), p. 185, to Ezra Stiles, March 9, 1790.

------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Henry


REVOLUTIONARY GENERAL; LEGISLATOR; �THE VOICE OF LIBERTY�; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA

Being a Christian� is a character which I prize far above all this world has or can boast. ...

The Bible� is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed. ...

Righteousness alone can exalt America as a nation. Whoever thou art, remember this; and in thy sphere practice virtue thyself, and encourage it in others.

------------------------------------------------------


John Jay

PRESIDENT OF CONGRESS; DIPLOMAT; AUTHOR OF THE FEDERALIST PAPERS; ORIGINAL CHIEF JUSTICE OF THE U. S. SUPREME COURT; GOVERNOR OF NEW YORKProvidence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation, to select and prefer Christians for their rulers


William Jay, The Life of John Jay (New York: J. & J. Harper, 1833), Vol. II, p. 376, to John Murray Jr. on October 12, 1816

-------------------------------------------------------

Thomas Jefferson


SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; DIPLOMAT; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA; SECRETARY OF STATE; THIRD PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.64

The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.65

I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.66

I am a real Christian � that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.67


James McHenry

REVOLUTIONARY OFFICER; SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; RATIFIER OF THE U. S. CONSTITUTION; SECRETARY OF WAR UNDER PRESIDENTS GEORGE WASHINGTON AND JOHN ADAMS

[P]ublic utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. Without the Bible, in vain do we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions.


Bernard C. Steiner, One Hundred and Ten Years of Bible Society Work in Maryland, 1810-1920 (Maryland Bible Society, 1921), p. 14.
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In summary there are no logical liberals, for were they logical thinkers they would not be liberal. To be a liberal is to be either truly or wilfully ignorant.

I bet if you offered Ring, a stack of Greenbacks, he wouldn't feel "preached to, Teal.

Ringworm,
Why do guys like you feel like Christians have to hide their faith in a closet whenever an Atheist/Agnostic/etc. is around??? If you don't like it, that's fine. Simply ignore it.

Wanna know something?? I'm agnostic (ok, I occasionally lean towards Deism) . I also went to a Baptist university. I understood what the score was when I got there. Occasionally, a person or two would try to preach at me, but for the most part, I lived my life and they lived theirs. I didn't expect them to conform to me. I was able to respect the fact that they were a Christian university and they respected my religious freedom.

I find it funny that lots of liberal folks, who like to go on and on about how interesting other cultures are and how their religious beliefs are soooo fascinating, constantly feel the need to piss on what they consider the "white-bread" Christian beliefs of the majority of the folks in this country. Despite what some think, there is an "American" culture, and it just so happens to incorporate many aspects of the Christian faith.

As for spending money with "In god we trust" written on it, no I do not have a realistic choice. It's what I get paid with. Put it to a vote, and I won't vote to put "god" on my money.

If a company wants to make literature or figurines with big bible verses on it, that's fine. But when they feel they have to be sneaky about it, that's despicable.

I hope Trijicon goes belly up. What they did is unacceptable. What if somebody snuck verses from another religion onto office furniture they buy? If I wanted a bible verse on my equipment, I would put it there, and wouldn't care if another guy did it. But I don't want it there, and sneaking it on is wrong.

44henry

It is somewhat dishonest and disingenuous.

Neither the increase or decrease of religious numbers change truth one iota, just like neither the increase or decrease of members of PETA, the ACLU, the Fascists, or the Communists increases or decreases the rightness of their tenets.


The one irrefutable truth is that the principles of Christian morality established unparalled growth and prosperity in this nation. Why we would we even consider acknowledging that other world religions have equal credibility unless we wanted to live at the standard which their religion lowered them to....

If you don't want to live like them, then don't believe like them.

Adopting their beliefs and world perspectives will inevitably make us like them. Is this what we really want???

Hardly hidden when it is clearly posted on their website and has been a long-established practice.

� Morality
We believe that America is great when its people are good. This goodness has been based on biblical standards throughout our history and we will strive to follow those morals.


It sounds like the liberals are just late again in discovering truth that was never hidden...

Right on Trijicon....too bad the government purchasing agent with his grade school education was unable to read and use the ability to reason and come to the conclusion that there has always been Bible references on the sights. Oh well I'll take two of three. God Bless Trijicon and the USA.

+1

Don't go making sense.

i agree there is plenty of ppl of other religions that are good ppl.....still fail to see how a [bleep] serial number is being preached to though.....

you want something to be pissed off about, ive got 3 sets of great grandparents buried with in 30 miles of here, both my grandfathers buried locally, i was born, raised and with the exception of 6 months when i was 18 lived my entire life here yet last week i was called an immigrant.....pissed me the [bleep] off.....

Bottom line.................the ONLY people this is 'important' to, are America's enemies. That means foreign AND domestic.
[bleep] 'em, ya know?

I don't understand why have these Bible references on the sight could gather anyone's panties in a wad.

If Trijicon wants to put these on there fine! No one is forcing the govt to buy them and if they stop the only one that they will be hurting are the men and women in uniform. If there is anyone to be mad at it is ABC and their pc hate all things American attitude.

If Hadji has Koran garbage on his AK will that cause our troops more concern or drive them to atrocities? And like I've asked before has any rag head that has been shot with an ACOG voiced a complaint about this "secret scripture?"


Despite all that our "leaders" have said this IS a war against Islam and us.

Wow, 18 pages of a tempest in a teapot. Trijicon put Bible references on their products. No one noticed until very recently. Seems like someone had too much time on their hands. Does the Bible reference compromise quality or utility of the items in question? If not, quit whining and continue to use them.
Don't like it? Don't buy one. The troops don't care as long as it works.

I'm not thumping any bible. I'm just pointing how stupid this argument is. Par you're running with it.

Can't argue that

just read that a Saudi court, composed of Wahabbinist "clerics" has sentenced a 13 year old girl to 90 lashes for bringing a camera phone to school.


every time I see one of those stories, I have to shake my head at the incredibly naive suckers in the West who buy into the boo-hoo stories about the delicate sensitivities of the Muslims.

news flash.....a culture that flogs 13 year old girls, mercy kills their older sister, stones adultresses to death and hangs homosexuals does not...repeat does not....get all twisted in a knot about frat boy pranks at abu Gharib.

it is simply manipulation of the west, using our own excessive empathy against us. this ACOG crap is just more of the same.

Here's a picture of the "in your face" preaching worm and o are worried about. I can see how a Jew or another non christian would get upset while laying next to the guy holding the rifle.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...nscribed_thousands_rifle_scopes_wit.html

unbelievable.....a culture ashamed of itself is doomed

I've never served (skipped a generation apparently), and I don't "practice" a religion. I believe in seperation of church and state (lower case intentional). But I do have a son in Iraq, and I doubt very seriously this tempest in a teapot means shidt to him or his peers.

Charlie

It's funny that the "enlightened libtards" didn't chit their pants before the AP report. The fact they even think they have a clue now is priceless.

ARMY SNIPERS GET THANK-YOU LETTER FROM JESUS

AMERICAN and British soldiers who take down Taleban fighters with a single shot have received thank you letters from Jesus, it emerged last night.


They also get a mug

The Son of God has written to each of the trained killers to congratulate them on their skill in wiping out muslims cleanly and efficiently from up to 1500 yards away.

The Prince of Peace said: "There are few things more satisfying to me than a well-executed kill shot by an English-speaking Christian, using state-of-the-art technology.

"As I said to my beloved apostles as we rested in the Garden of Gethsemane 'get thyself into a nice, comfortable position with thy rifle butt nestling in thy shoulder before taking aim methodically and letting out a long, slow, deep breath as you squeeze the trigger'.

"And when we see the halo of blood erupting from the back of the non-believer's skull, do we not also see the glory of My Father?"

Coalition snipers have enjoyed increased success since being issued with new rifle scopes that have a little pair of bright red horns painted on the end so that they can be positioned over the soon-to-be-exploding head of their Muslim target.

Nathan Muir, chief executive of manufacturers The Psychopath Corporation, said: "We also include a biblical code on the side of the scope. I saw Pulp Fiction a few years ago and the bit with Samuel L Jackson quoting Ezekial while holding an enormous hand gun gave me a very powerful erection."

Jesus added: "Many congratulations to you and I hope you continue to kill as many human beings as you possibly can before you die."

I'm a troop and I DO care!

I wonder what else is secretly printed on my equipment that I don't know about? Maybe I am drinking out of a canteen supporting PETA and don't know it yet.

44henry

If it isn't a hard one, answer my [bleep] question.

You owe me some Crown Royal. It's on my keyboard now....

I'm sorry, I didn't see a question for me?

On the same page...just want my kid back with his sons and wife, duck hunting, fishing, barbques, etc. Lottsa' talk bout sacrifice, few here actually experience it. Sorry but serial #'s don't mean shidt to me, politics don't really mean shidt to me either, letters from Christ don't mean shidt either. lol

Best friend just named his first son after my oldest son, I just want my son back whole as whole can be...Carry on and respectfully YMMV.

Charlie

Steve_NO, any thoughts as to why things like that happen in Muslim countries? Is is because of the "wholesale marriage of church and state" in Muslim countries? Puritanical religious beliefs being enforced on the entire populace by the authority of the state? It makes me believe that the "wall of separation between church and state" that Thomas Jefferson wrote about in his letter was very good idea. This "wall of separation" is an idea that is completely unthinkable in Muslim world and is part of what makes us better than them because our system of government does not endorse nor prohibit any specific religious views. Under our government freedom allows a diversity of religious beliefs that can flourish or perish on their own merits without being propped up or killed by the state. Just the opposite happens in Muslim countries where the "wholesale marriage of the church and state" occurs. Puritanical beliefs are propped up and religious freedom for everyone is curtailed and diminished under the authority of a state theocracy.

As far as the scopes go, not a big deal IMO. As far as I know our government didn't ask for those markings on the scopes or know about until it was reported in the media. It would be a completely different discussion if this had occurred otherwise.

Trijicon can put whatever they want on their scopes. They don't force people to buy them. Most troops I have known would be glad to know that there is a Bible verse on their scope and would likely have the book available to look it up in either with them or not far off.

I don't own a Trijicon scope but will rectify that situation shortly....probably with several. My eyes aren't as young as they used to be and Trijicon is the easiest to focus and clearest scope I have tried in years. I hope that they come with a Bible verse and wish that I could specify which one. I sort of like Luke 22:36 among others.

thinks like that happen in Saudi Arabia because they have ceded their "justice" system to a bunch of medieval Wahabbinist psychos, whose "religion" is a death cult.


the western educated Saud family doesn't buy into that crap, but it's the blackmail they pay to stay in power.

Exactly! The "justice" system is an integral part of government and this is what happens when church and state have become inseparable.

Just look at the history of religion when it has been inseperable from the state, lots of oppression and little freedom.

I like Trijicon scopes and would love to own one for my AR15, and I don't personally care about the religious beliefs of the manufacturer. I've owned 5 Kahr pistols if anyone doubts I'll buy a product made by religious wackos of whatever stripe.

Nor do I care about offending our enemies, except to the extent that it endangers our troops.

The fact that we come from Christian roots is not being challenged, nor is the fact that fundamentalist Islam is obviously a far inferior "platform" for a free nation.

What I do care about is the government willfully procuring items literally stamped with ANY religion's mark, then forcing government employees to use those items. That's unConstitutional. Those employees CANNOT just "don't buy one then!" as some keep saying.

Examples are soooo easy. How about helmets with a star of David molded into them. That ok? Buddha on your body armor? Koran on your crackers? This is all fine with you guys because hey- it's fine to spend public money on religiously-branded gear that the troops are compelled to use . Right?

Christ in a cracker, some of you are obtuse!

not really, some will see the govt. as obtuse or the company as obtuse (not likely as retooling for a gov. contract should be inherent in the RFP or RFB)...and the beat goes on.............mean while the troops implementing "policy" will keep at it victorious or failed. And the victorious POLS will tell "us" who failed while shirking any accountibility..............

Charlie

Check out the headstones at Arlington,, if you are concerned about such stuff.

If the equipment I'm issued is high-quality and enables me to kill the enemies of my country more efficiently while not causing confusion as to which side I'm on, you can engrave the entire Communist Manifesto on it for all I care. Bible references on my scope? Great! Koran Krackers for dinner? No sweat. Buddha Body Armor? As long as it stops bullets I'm fine with it (and my current physique makes it oddly appropriate).

When I wore the uniform, I didn't spend sleepless nights worrying about the religious/political affiliations the manufacturers of my equipment had, I just wanted it to work. Only internet commandos with too much time on their hands worry about that [bleep].

The stars, or the crosses?

That's one way to get the "God" off the currency. Money laundering, athiest-style?

Just wait until someone reads that there is actually reference to God on our own currency that purchases these ACOGs! Ooops, cat's out of the bag.

really diagree with you on occassoin Sam


nice to see we can agree on this


hope you had a great hunt and didn't catch the....... (grin)



quite a tempest in this little teapot


but my fave was the worm chastisin you guys about how you make your point......now THAT was funny

about what i figured.
no surprise. if christians had the ability to think logicaly they would have dropped the whole "wizard in the clouds" scam a 2000 years ago.
AT least 7-10% of people are comming to thier senses every fed years.
Weird how christians are not converting to other religions. they are dumping the idea of GOD all together. You guys really burn people on the idea of religion.
ever stop to wonder why?
every year 1000's of people of varied faiths convert it Islam and 1000's of people turn from jesus to nothing.
And you dolts cant figure out why.
the message hasnt changed.
its you friggin idiots.
your delivery of the message is making people sick of christ.
you dont get that?

The truth does little good if it is obscured with sugar-coating, smokescreens, falsehoods, or changed in any way. There is no doubt that it needs to be properly presented but the message must remain the same or it is a message without value. The perception of truth by the masses is irrelevant to the truth itself.

There are two dangerous extremes to be avoided--creating an abusive and corrupt religious system that is supported by the State or creating a corrupt and abusive completely secular state which cannot be held accountable by true religion and moral values.

Part of your rant says if we (Christians) were smart we would drop religion as a scam.

Then you say that the message hasn't changed, its us driving people away, alluding to the fact that we are incorrectly delivering the message which exists.

You contradict yourself in your attempt to give the virtual finger to both God, and Christians.

Anyway, sorry you feel that way.

Hope you see things differently one day.


BTW, thousands of Koreans and Chinese and Brazilians are taking up Christianity every year. Just an FYI.

Blah blah

I must admit I steared clear of this post..... I get really tired of all the "stuff" that get rehashed everytime.

However, I have no poblem with it on the scope... It is not "in your face" and no one is "pushing it down your throat"... after all how manys years has this been on there and no one even knew.

I must commend them for taking a stand.... Of course if their stand was against and not for most of the people on here who have been complaining about it would be all for it...

I have never even looked at one of their scopes.... All of this hoopla makes me want to go buy one.

I hope Trijicon finds a way to micro-laser etch the inscrption on their products in an area that's hidden from view.

I agree with Steve NO, bunch of flamin liberals making much to do about nuthin...

I wonder if I can get my next ACOG with a large Knight's Templar Cross on it?!!

I think laser sights should emit a cross rather than a dot...


nice truck, BTW.

Since New Zealand is the most socialist nation in that hemisphere and PC is their bible,why would this suprise anyone.These morons,like the left wingers in England,will wait until their nation is overun with Muslins before they come to the realization that it's too late to confront the enemy that is now within their borders.

I remember back in the 80's when the Kiwis refused to let our nuclear powered ships port in New Zealand. We had to mark off NZ from all CANUKAUSNZ releasable classified documents. That was our retribution, "you don't let our ships in, we don't share Intel with you."

The Kiwis have always been a bit crunchy and left leaning.

Muslims Angry Over U.S. Military 'Jesus' Rifles

Thursday, January 21, 2010

AP/Defense Dept.

Combat rifle sights used by U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan carry secret references to Bible verses.

Muslim groups reacted angrily Wednesday after it emerged that the U.S. military is using combat rifle sights inscribed with coded Biblical references.

Army officials have said they will investigate whether a Michigan defense contractor violated federal procurement rules by stamping references to Bible verses on the gun sights used by American forces to kill enemy fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations on Wednesday said the continued use of the sights with the religious references would send a negative message to the Muslim world.

"The use of military equipment with hidden Bible references sends the false message to Muslims worldwide that we are at war with Islam," said CAIR Legal Counsel Nadhira Al-Khalili. "In addition, these sights are a potential recruiting tool for anti-American forces, endanger our troops and alienate our Muslim allies. They should we withdrawn as soon as logistically possible."

The Marine Corps, another major customer of the telescoping sights that allow troops to pinpoint targets day or night, says service acquisition officials plan to meet with Trijicon to discuss future purchases of the company's gear.

"If determined to be true, this is clearly inappropriate and we are looking into possible remedies," Commander Darryn James, a Pentagon spokesman, told AFP.

The references have stoked concerns by a watch dog group about whether the inscriptions break a government rule that bars proselytizing by American troops. But military officials said the citations don't violate the ban and they won't stop using the tens of thousands of telescoping sights that have already been bought.

The codes were used as "part of our faith and our belief in service to our country," Trijicon said.

"As long as we have men and women in danger, we will continue to do everything we can to provide them with both state-of-the-art technology and the never-ending support and prayers of a grateful nation," a company spokesman said on condition of anonymity.

Trijicon said it has been longstanding company practice to put the Scripture citations on the equipment. Tom Munson, Trijicon's director of sales and marketing, said the company has never received any complaints until now.

"We don't publicize this," Munson said in a recent interview. "It's not something we make a big deal out of. But when asked, we say, 'Yes, it's there.'"

The inscriptions are subtle and appear in raised lettering at the end of the stock number. Trijicon's rifle sights use tritium, a radioactive form of hydrogen, to create light and help shooters hit what they're aiming for.

Markings on the Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight, which is standard issue to U.S. special operations forces, include "JN8:12," a reference to John 8:12: "Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, 'I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life,'" according to the King James version of the Bible.

The Trijicon Reflex sight is stamped with 2COR4:6, a reference to part of the second letter of Paul to the Corinthians: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ," the King James version reads.

Photos posted on a Defense Department Web site show Iraqi forces training with rifles equipped with the inscribed sights.

The Defense Department is a major customer of Trijicon's. In 2009 alone, the Marine Corps signed deals worth $66 million for the company's products. Trijicon's scopes and optical devices for guns range in cost from a few hundred dollars to $13,000, according to the company's Web site.

Mikey Weinstein, president of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, says the Trijicon sights could give the Taliban and other enemy forces a propaganda tool: that American troops are Christian crusaders invading Muslim countries.

"I don't have to wonder for a nanosecond how the American public would react if citations from the Quran were being inscribed onto these U.S. armed forces gun sights instead of New Testament citations," Weinstein said. The foundation is a nonprofit organization opposed to religious favoritism within the military.

Weinstein said he has received complaints about the Scripture citations from active-duty and retired members of the military. He said he couldn't identify them because they fear retaliation.

A spokesman for U.S. Central Command, which manages military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, said the sights don't violate the ban on proselytizing because there's no effort to distribute the equipment beyond the U.S. troops who use them.

"This situation is not unlike the situation with U.S. currency," said the spokesman, Air Force Maj. John Redfield. "Are we going to stop using money because the bills have 'In God We Trust' on them? As long as the sights meet the combat needs of troops, they'll continue to be used."

Capt. Geraldine Carey, a Marine Corps spokeswoman, said Tuesday in an e-mailed statement that "we are aware of the issue and are concerned with how this may be perceived." Carey said Marine Corps acquisition officials plan to meet with Trijicon to discuss future buys of the company's sights. The statement did not say what the nature of those discussions would be.

Gary Tallman, an Army spokesman, said the service was not aware of the markings. But Army acquisition experts will determine if Trijicon violated any procurement regulations, he said.

Munson, Trijicon's sales director, said the practice of putting Bible references on the sites began nearly 30 years ago by Trijicon's founder, Glyn Bindon, who was killed in a plane crash in 2003. His son Stephen, Trijicon's president, has continued the practice.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

"The use of military equipment with hidden Bible references sends the false message to Muslims worldwide that we are at war with Islam"

Not all Muslims are terrorist, but all terrorist are Muslim.

Naturally this brings the ragheads out of the woodwork. Screw 'em. What have they done to rein in the extremists? Answer...nothing.

Maybe they could just inscribe one of these on it



That's the symbol of St. James the Moor Slayer.

This was Weinstein's intent all along,to inflame the Muslims in order to further his left wing agenda.His tactics completely disregard the additional danger he places upon our military.His demented belief that his short stint as a JAG gives him some special privlege to wage his hateful campaign to force religion from all facets of our military.But I wouldn't expect such a radical Christian hating moron to be concerned about anybody but himself.

Go out and get one Sako, you won't be disappointed. They make a good product.

Funny thing, up until a few weeks ago they didn't know and it didn't hurt em. Now all of a sudden it hurts cause someone told them it's suppose to hurt...

[bleep] liberals.

War is politics in its crudest form. Can you really win a war by "winning the hearts and minds of the people"? From my study of history this never works. My question is, why go so far out of your way in trying to implement a broken policy. THe real question that needs to be addressed is, How are the people of Iraq and Afghanistan treated by the American Soldiers/ Governemnt? That is what matters, not some hidden scripture on a rifle scope. Ask the Japanese and the Germans about how to win hearts and minds. That all comes about at the negotiation table for peace. Hope that Im not being repetative, but I didn't have time to read 23 pages of post.

That's right, you can't negotiate with your enemy until he knows he is beaten. One atomic bomb wasn't enough for Japan, they wanted to continue to fight after the first one.

If they start canceling contracts, they'll have to make do with inferior scopes. The ACOG is the standard agaist which all others are measured. Only thing wrong with an ACOG in my opinion...very expensive!

'Twas fun while it lasted.......


Fox report........

�Render therefore to Caesar that which is Caesar's and to God those things which are God's�

Now you got it!

Bless you.

While this has a nice symetry to it, I can't abide by the last part.

A secular state is held accountable by the Rule of Law. It categorically should NOT be held accountable to religion, true or otherwise.

Now, the moral values of a religion can certainly be codified into law, and in fact that's what has happened.

I bet all the Jews and Non Christians in service will be so happy.

Won't speak for them, but I personally would prefer to NOT have someone else's religious references stamped into my duty rifle optic.

What Christians just don't get is that they'd [bleep] their [bleep]' PANTS if it was some OTHER religion that was being constantly pimped....... and had legions of people trying to cram it into places it doesn't belong like school and courthouses...

Constantly pimped? you're delusional.

Jeff,
Are you sure you don't work for the ACLU or something?

I seriously doubt if the average Christian on this site would give a rat's ass if they were handed a rifle or scope with some cryptic serialization linked to Yahweh or Zeus or Buddha or Thor. Most of us would be like "Cool, how it's shoot?"

You see, Christians aren't as insecure as Atheists and Muslims.

There it is.

Wonder if anyone thinks the references make them any more deadly? Use what works the best, and don't worry about a couple letters and numbers. Heck, they could stamp it with 6-6-6 for all I care, as long as it's the best equipment we can give to our fighting men.

From Foxnews: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,583566,00.html

Company to Remove Bible References From Combat Rifles

WASHINGTON � A Michigan defense contractor will voluntarily stop stamping references to Bible verses on combat rifle sights made for the U.S. military, a major buyer of the company's gear.

In a statement released Thursday, Trijicon of Wixom, Mich., says it is also providing to the armed forces free of charge modification kits to remove the Scripture citations from the telescoping sights already in use.

AWESOME! This is what should happen! I love my country!

And as I said before, I serve right now, I am not an "internet commando", and I had an ACOG when I was in Iraq last year. (Actually, my M4 in the arms room right now also has one.) I am proud my country is removing these bible verses. Liberal? No, just freedom loving!

You see, when I defend my country, I defend your right to practice the religion you choose. I DO NOT fight for your HOLY BOOK. I fight for the US Constitution.

Now I wonder if I should tell Trijicon about all the chairs my brother-in-law's company sold them with Koran verses printed on the plastic seat under the foam and fabric? Naw, what they don't know doesn't hurt, right? Shhhh! It will be our secret!

44henry

I heard that tabasco has hindu text written on the label of the MRE minibottles.

If you look close the words can clearly be seen.
10,000X magnification

There is an idea for Trijicon, they could code their scopes with with amendments from the Bill of Rights! They could start with the 2ND:RTBA.

38 religious symbols approved for placement on government-issued grave markers.

http://www.cem.va.gov/hm/hmemb.asp

You're right. Plus, Christian bashing is 'in'. God forbid (can I still say that?) mohammedans get that treatment. You'd have a CAIR sposored fatwa on your tail.