WRONG!!! losers and liars just pisss me off, archaeologists aren't lawyers... it's a 100% classic sex rock.

Kent

First 2 bit piece.

1. I'm an anthropologist. We studied the various laws in class. 2. On another forum a couple of years ago someone else said I didn't know what I was talking about. I asked a Kisatchie National Forest archaeologist friend just to make sure the law hadn't changed. She said I was right. 3. Call your nearest national or state forest and ask if you can go rock collecting in their forest. 4. If you don't want to do that, show a ranger the pretty rock you found in his or her forest. If he or she is a good guy/gal you'll get told to never do that again. If he or she is an a-hole, you'll get told to put your hands behind your back.

It's a felony and you will lose your gun rights. Don't take my word for it. Look it up yourself or make a call.

You said it, you qualify it, should be easy since you 'studied' it in class. Federal statute will suffice...

I bet you think picking up arrowheads is illegal also.

Maybe you can find the statistics for those federally prosecuted and federal rights lost from picking up rocks on public ground.

Oh, maybe when you find the correct answer, you can tell everyone how much rock you are allowed to take for personal use.

Kent

PS: In Louisiana it's even illegal to pick up pretty rocks or artifacts on private land unless you own the land or have permission from the landowner to do so. It's the "Unauthorized Excavation Act." Look it up if you don't believe me. "Excavation" means digging, but it also means simply picking it up and putting it in your pocket. Your state probably has a similar law.

I suggest you use my #4 and get back with us to tell us what happened.

Wrong! Forest service is Federal not State.

Try again.

Kent

I suggest you know the law before spouting off.

Try again.

Kent

Google 'public land rock collecting'. You'll find that some lands are open to rockhounds and some are not. You need to be sure of where you are. As an example, here's a BLM brochure on collecting in Nevada. Many rocks are ok to pick up, fossils and artifacts are off limits. NV ROCK COLLECTING

Here's an excerpt from an Idaho Public Land brochure:
ROCKHOUNDING ON PUBLIC LAND

Rockhounds are welcome to collect rocks and gemstones from most public land administered by the US Forest Service or the Bureau of Land Management, but there are some exceptions. Some lands are withdrawn or reserved for certain purposes such as national landmarks, outstanding natural areas, research areas, recreation sites, national historic sites, etc. Rockhounding is usually not permitted in these areas. Rockhounding on valid mining claims is not advised without the locator's consent because of legal problems which might arise between the locator and the collector. Additional information concerning public lands can be obtained from the Idaho Bureau of Land Management, 1387 South Vinnell Way, Boise, Idaho 83709, Telephone (208) 373-3890.

Louisiana has lots of peculiar laws . Judging just from you , I have to add that it has some peculiar people also .

Here's an interesting quote from Rock Chuck's link:

"Violations of regulations under the Federal Land Policy and
Management Act, the Native American Graves Protection and
Repatriation Act, the Archaeological Resources Protection Act,
state and federal wildlife law, and other laws may be punishable
by fines, imprisonment, and forfeiture of equipment and vehicles
used in commission of the crime."

And I must add, forfeiture of gun rights.

Well, if you are digging up graves to get rocks....

I'm not helping you with the answer, but there is a certain amount of rocks you can collect for personal use without a permit on FS.

Of course you can't substantiate anything you say... shades of Lee24.

You're also about as bright as an indian sex rock... just say'n.

Kent

Bla,bla,bla Give me a State or Federal Statute.

Laws and Reg's aside ... I'm MORE interested in the SEX ROCKS!

Uh ... How did they DO it ???




(snort)

Dude, "SEX ROCKS!" First words of a non-virgin.
Now "Rock sex", that happens real slow, when two rocks get together and get to pounding, then you get little rocks.

Indian Love Stone: just another effin' rock.

But I would not feel so all alone,
Everybody must get stoned.

B Dylan

indian sex stone.... just another F'n rock...

Kent

Geeeezzzz.. I read the entire thread waiting to say it was just another fuggin rock only to be beaten by some of you... C'mon, it isn't often an old phart like me can have a punch line early on.
Carry on....

Anyway, feels like Lee again.

1. I'm an anthropologist. We studied the various laws in class.

They taught you it was fine being wrong? Or you just misremember?

2. On another forum a couple of years ago someone else said I didn't know what I was talking about. I asked a Kisatchie National Forest archaeologist friend just to make sure the law hadn't changed. She said I was right.

Well Chit, there you go, an archaeologist said so...

3. Call your nearest national or state forest and ask if you can go rock collecting in their forest.

No need, I have direct connect numbers to the enforcement officers in the field.

4. If you don't want to do that, show a ranger the pretty rock you found in his or her forest. If he or she is a good guy/gal you'll get told to never do that again. If he or she is an a-hole, you'll get told to put your hands behind your back.

You actually wrote that with a straight face?

here's a little taste, though you need to do some research yourself.

It is Forest Service policy that the recreational use of metal detectors and the collection of rocks and mineral samples are allowed on the National Forests. Generally, most of the National Forests are open to recreational mineral and rock collecting, gold panning and prospecting using a metal detector. This low impact, casual activity usually does not require any authorization.

What the heck is it with liberals and arguing with lies. It's not so bad that you are mistaken, it's you have to argue that your lies are true, complete with detailed (fantacies) examples... puts into perspective all your other ramblings... nuff said.

Kent

Out in the hills of Northern New Mexico I came across a very nice slice of petrified Indian Bread probably many millennium old and probably priceless, but it could just be a rock. That's my new Tomcat for size comparision.

We are allowed 120 lbs of recreational rocks/minerals annually from federal lands (petrified wood, gold, picture jasper, agate, sunstone, obsidian, fossils, or just rock for the barbie, etc). We have a sh-tload of rock in Eastern Oregon, so no one really cares or would notice if one went missing. If one intends to exceed 120 lbs and enter into commercial ventures, he needs so permit up (File a claim). There is no one out there weighing us in and out though, so if one ventures out with less than a backhoe and dump truck, there is little to fear.

Obviously, we can not take rock from National Parks or Monuments, but it's a non issue for most BLM and Forest property. The obsidian in Yellowstone is pretty poor quality anyway.

I suspect the state regs are same same, but I've not bothered to look them up.

Picking up artifacts from federal land is a no no. Some locals were going to do the BLM a favor and drag late 30's Ford carcass out of a drainage. Since it's over 50 yrs old, it's protected by the Antiquities act.

I likely exeed my 120 lbs, as I'm a closet flintknapper. My property is laced with obsidian though, so I really only have to go as far as the wife's flower garden.

Pre-Historic Indians, invented "Sliced" Bread ??? ???

Anyway, your Tomcat's cool.

The biggie is the Federal Antiquities Act of 1906.

This was the first federal general historic preservation law. The act authorized the president to designate as national monuments "historic landmarks, historic and prehistoric structures, and other objects of historic or scientific interest" on federal lands. It also required permits for excavation on public lands and provided criminal penalties for unauthorized damage to or appropriation of objects of antiquity on those lands.

In other words, you casn be big-time fined or even be sent to prison for removing such objects. There have been some recent major federal court cases involving dinossaur bones, but taking Indian artifacts isn't taken lightly, either.

Native Americans are exempt from some of these laws, dependin on what's taken and what's done with the objects in question, just as they're exempt from laws against posessing eagle parts.

Many states also have similar laws about removing significant artifacts from state lands.

But this one does look like a classic Indian sex rock.

Yepper, it relates to artifacts which rocks aren't, as claimed by the archaeologist.

Also surface discovery is treated differently than excavation, both in enforcement and punitive action. Basically there is no punitive action on surface discovery beyond seizure of the artifact, get caught digging and crap will hit the fan.

We only have thousands of ruins in Az and finding stuff laying here is easy, mostly shards (trash piles). Many of the oldtimers were diggers around the depression era and it wasn't considered serious at that time, basically a misdemeanor with light fines and no jail. It stayed that way till the 70s and then more attention was put on it, as it should.

Picking up an arrowhead is 'not' punishable by law, confiscated, yes. picking up broken shards will result in a verbal warning.

Picking up rocks just means you're horny...

Kent

120#! I'm not picking up anything that weighs 120#. Most of the deer I shoot don't even weigh 120#. It has been my practice for a long time to pick up a rock wherever I go. I have boxes of them but I don't keep them in the attic. I'd post some pictures but from reading this thread it seems there is such a thing as "The Rock Police" or "Stone Troopers" and I'm already under surveillance from "You know who".

Alan

Artifacts found on private land in Missouri are not subject to state laws. If human remains are encountered you are required to notify law enforcement or natural resources. Unlawful to dig on federal or (state) land. Make sure all surface finds of stone artifacts occurs on private land where you have the owners permission. GW

I knew some diggers that were on a huge mound, half on private and half on FS. They used backhoes and unearthed hundreds of pots. They were watched by FS to see if they would cross the fence and knew it. That was before the prohibition on burials in private.

They made more than 100,000 on those pots. The incentive is there.

Kent

Against the law to dig on private land. How in the flying hell do you guys put in a foundation for a home? You just pour a basement on the surface and pound it in when it dries?

I was doing a pump/chlorination system up in Rainier National Park. The old building we were working in needed some foundation repair, the foundation was made of motored granite rocks.
The contractor doing the work had to bring in rock, the park wouldn't let him use any from inside the national park.
I was told by a park ranger that it's illegal to pick up/take rocks from inside the park.
On the same job a old rusted out oil tank was found buried next to one of the buildings. Before digging could start a drawing of the location of every plant had to be made, the plants were relocated to a green house so they could be put back in the very same spot they came from.

Ahhh, now we get to the truth. I'm a Democrat so everything I say is a lie, huh? Go forth to public land and pick up all the rocks, fossils and arrowheads you want. Just show them to the first ranger or game warden you see, ok?

Amazing what the question "ID this rock" can provoke.

Steve

you have the difficult to find "mano" of a "mano y metate".

IMHO, just my $.02, YMMV, Hope i didn't offend anyone, yadda yadda, yadda.

-tom

I pick up everything that looks like an artifact. What good does leaving it on the ground do? It's called civil disobedience. It's not friggin murder.

Dan

Should be OK to show it to the Game Warden, unless of course you didn't tag it, or its not within the "slot limit", or you werent wearing your orange when you picked it up...


Ingwe

Unfortunately artifacts are a hot button topic for greenies and especially archaeologists, as exhibited here. There is always someone say'n you broke a law just picking up a stick for firewood, or rock for a fire ring.

JuniorLee24, called you out in his first post inferring you broke the law with the excavating... for picking up a rock... You will lose your gun rights... idiot.

I've dealt with greenie archaeologists before and knew where he was going, I can't abide someone that straight up lies to propagandize their views... this isn't opinion.

I will bet he isn't a professional arch and just belongs to a club.

Kent

I called you a liberal, have no idea if you were a democrat, you could be a republican liberal for all I know... Lie, propagandize, greenie tendencies = LIBERAL.

I have seen a few of your other posts somewhere, mostly you attacked me on a political thread before, but hey that's your opinion and I really don't remember much but that you had a LIBERAL slant. LIBERAL = lies to propagandize their view and control others, Al Gore comes to mind.

This isn't opinion and you categorically state it's a felony to pick up a rock on public land, punishable by physical arrest and imprisonment and loss of 2A rights.

I simply ask again that since you brought up the subject of criminal action concerning the OP, you prove statute. Duck and dive all you want, change the subject to me, whatever... The onus is on you to prove your statements.

Try again.... just answer the foooking question.

Kent

Doesn't matter if it is an "Indian sex rock".

Indians had no problem using naturally-formed rocks that suited their momentary purpose.

If you like it and think it is interesting, keep it.

I've found some perfectly round stones that I seriously doubt an Indian ever laid eyes on, but are indistinguishable from grinding stones dug out of burial mounds. Unless a stone has tool marks on it, it is impossible to prove/disprove Indian use.

I am either sober today or my old timers has cleared with the help of Scotts proof reading abilities. Thanks Scott GW

One of the many Government geeks who had to approve my application to build a road across my land was the Government Archeologist.

If he had found any significant chips or shards The bulldozer would not now be moving dirt on my land.

Your tax dollars at work.

It's OUR forest, not "their's".

I feel a ... SC 375 H&H coming on...

Willie C. jr " I 'never' had sex with that rock"

Lee Sr would have been so proud.

Kent

Guess he's a liberal government worker... if he ignores it, maybe no one remembers his lies.

Probably has me on ignore now, the most hateful sound to a liar's ears is the truth... totally vile.

Kent

You guys that say it's not lawful to dig a mound or camp on your private land TALK too much... I was taught by my grandfather that this was OUR ranch, and we'd do whatever we were big enough to do on it.

As far as 'artifacts' on federal land. Well, they see "differences" in artifacts, and the way they are possesed. If you are a "Pothunter" and dig especially for some of the cermonial type pots that are in and around burial grounds, then you are looking at pen time.

If you are out on BLM hunting deer and you pick up a pottery shard or a point and put it in your pocket, then you may be looking at getting it taken away from you....But, then again, if they KNOW about it, you TALK TOO MUCH.

i don't think I would make it a practice to be digging in caves, rock shelters, or mounds on federal lands though. They may make an example of you.

Just take the damn thing.
If anybody complains, throw it at 'em

They both look like 'pet rocks' to me.

Nope, not on ignore. Not a government worker. Retired. Waiting on word from an Arizona horse's mouth. Is the other end of the horse at Kent R Powell; 2530 N. 62nd Street; Mesa, Arizona?

Looks like a "Pigeon" rock to me!

Nope, close but nice try... county has my info all messed up. anywho, my info has been all over the net with the different donations I've run. Big deal....

You know they charge like 40 bucks to run a search at man-on-mansearch.com

Sending me a donation?

Seems like you could have gotten a answer quick like, sounds like you are waiting because the answer you got was not what you wanted.

Kent

Oh... post my social security # and I'll be impressed... just say'n.

Kent

I'm a criminal worthy of prison. Recently, I was out looking for a suitable target and I spotted a free ranging rock across a draw. I immediately dropped to a sitting position and shot it. I removed a chip from the publicly owned rock so apparently I'm guilty of destruction of public property, destruction of an artifact (assuming someone can prove that an Indian observed the rock before I did), and polluting public land with lead and a copper alloy.

Well, damn... Lee jr will be posting your dirty panties shortly...

Kent

Darn, I was going to excavate this, take it home & rent it out...





or haul this out & restore it...



They are both in Death Valley, by the way...

Seems here like "Global Warming" must be trancending Politics, and Frying ALL of your partisan brains.

THIS dicourse has evolved into a heated discord that is NOTHING but a Tempest In A Tea Party.

Much Ado About Nothing!

A "rock" ??? ??? ???

I think I am in big trouble! Had to drive my big truck on a fresh gravelled public road today. 26 truck tires can pick up a lot of rock off public land. Anybody know where I report for euthanasia?

The reason he's a liberal is he wants to control others with propaganda and misrepresentation of the law. Unsolicited he accused the OP of breaking Federal law... yes, because of a rock, that he said was just a rock. 'HE' took umbrage at my setting the record straight and escalated his lies to try an intimidate me... like that would work.

Mini microcosm, that he is, of our socialist leaning society just in this thread. He can't find proof to refute my stance and bolster his, so he spends all day trying to dig up dirt on me personally, including going through all my posts and running a county/state search on my name. Only way he came up with the wrong address. Like all government idiots, they can't understand they have my info wrong so I quit trying to correct it.

I pegged him dead center and he wants to belittle me like I did him... what he doesn't realize is he did it to himself... He can't refute one thing I've said because it's the truth and that cuts deep.

I'm sick of people (government) thinking they can just lie to me about laws that effect us, even picking up a rock, and expect me to ignore it.

it's one thing to be mistaken... another to knowingly lie.

Kent

lol

For the record, the OP laughed out loud at him. I tire of people who are intent on conjuring up the details they don't know, just to parade their "expertise."

Steve

Well, here's my expertise and I'll let it rest for now.

There is a huge subculture of artifacts/antiquities, especially southwest pueblo as there are literally hundreds of thousands of sites, millions some say, just in the four corners region.

I have relatives and friends that own property with sites, from Anasazi, Salato to Hohokam. I know people that have dug illegally on public, been caught and paid the price.

When one polychrome pot can go for thousands, even tens of thousands if it has an effigy, obviously the incentive is there for robbing sites.

The incentive for abuse in the archaeology profession is strong also, for many it is a license to steal public property for their own gain, highgrading the best pots for black market sale is common. Reminds me of a politician. If nothing else the archs need to find things to justify their jobs and procure for paying museums. Taking from sites for benefit, even museums, even 'legally' is a travesty. Once disturbed a site will not go back to natural, whether you put the dirt back or not.

So there is an underground war so to speak, involving millions of dollars, whether selling or Federal sponsor dollars. laws enacted and in continual change.

So it's a big deal whether that is a rock or artifact in some minds and the federal government is one.

All joking aside, that is a rock, or at the most the discard of waste from the original rock used for something. If it was a grinding stone the edges would have been rounded from use, not sharp enough for a scraper.

Kent

KRP:

Many years ago, I wrote a series of investigative articles for the Tucson Citizen about illegal commercial looting of prehistoric sites that was occurring on public land in Arizona and New Mexico then.

There were some well-known-at-the-time people involved. The stuff they stole from the sites then usually wasn't sold by a looter to a collector. Instead it was a tax scam. Here's how it worked:

Let's say you were in the highest income tax bracket and I came to you with an offer you can't refuse.

I have a highly decorated Anasazi pot, a letter from a qualified, well-known artifact appraiser stating the pot is so rare that it is worth $150,000.00, and a letter from a respected museum's curator saying his facility would be happy to receive that pot.

Now that you know all this, I'm willing to sell you that pot for $10,000.00 -- in cash.

In most cases, the guys who bought such pots never saw them. They received only letters from curators thanking them for their generous donations.

The scam developed because the looters were digging up hundreds of
"rare" pots and there was (and probably still is) a limited market for high-end
artifacts. If they sold their stuff only to collectors they quickly would have flooded the market.

In truth, that pot probably was worth a lot less than $10,000.

I couldn't say it, but the appraisers must have been involved somehow. It was difficult to blame the curators of the museums for wanting the stuff for their facility's collection, but they also had to know where all the stuff they were getting was coming from.

My series resulted in Arizona Congressman Morris K. Udall rewriting the U.S. Antiquities Act with stiffer penalties for looting sites on federal land, and I won some press awards, but the people I wrote about were never prosecuted.

Bill Quimby

Bill, that's interesting and a good account of the transition of law.


Many looters were just good old boys, ranchers in the areas, all walks of life, including archaeologists. In the distant past it was poo pooed away as most were community stalwarts.

Some of the biggest collections I've seen are in generational ranch houses in central Az. Also, much of the farm land in SW Colorado i.e. DoveCreek, have huge ruins and is private, unreal some collections in old farm houses off of just one average ruin.

The joke in DoveCreek is that the monster ruin that was excavated and restored in Delores has only a few pots, what happened to all the high dollar ones. The museum can't come close to some collections that are in an old farmhouse taken from a small ruin. They all wink the eye.

I truly don't know anyone digging or buying anymore, not for many years, the penalties are too great as is the stigmatization. I would say you were a part of that transformation and did a good service.

Mesa was a hub of the market, plenty of good old boys, middlemen buyers and the end buyers were some of the top community leaders including judicial and political. Also many of the pots were shipped to Europe as there was a huge market over there.

I grew up with good old boys and had some in my family and worked with some in construction. I heard pot talk all the time, digging/buying/selling, I didn't want to be digging in a grave so never participated, though I have been present as others dug a ruin on private property when it was legal.

Hundreds of thousands of ruins have been looted legally or illegally, I see no difference whether it's a good old boy or our government. You can't find a ruin that is close to a road or easily seeable by scout plane, that hasn't been hit.

One of the greatest joys I get is finding a hidden ruin, untouched. I spend a minute or more and look around.

Why were they here, What was it that made it home, what did they laugh about, cry, this was their whole life, probably twenty miles was their life's range. So many questions, what happened to them? I absolutely get a spiritual feeling on a 1000 year old ruin. I'm someone that gets off the beaten trail. I find many.

Here's a small two roomer I found right under the Rim last year, always makes my day.











Makes you wonder...

Kent

That's coz they was democrats!

Dan

Has anyone thought this might be a bannerstone?



I had a chief from an Indian tribe in West Virginia tell me today that this is a bannerstone. Bannerstones were part of an atlatl, used to give weight and momentum when throwing the spear from the atlatl. He demonstrated one for me.

Most bannerstones you see are more ornamental than this. But, the tapered edge he said was to lock it in place on the shaft. Others were designed differently, and some were designed to adjust to different positions on the shaft.

I'm not totally sure, but he was very sure. I talked to him for about a hour, and he had some amazing insights into the tools his ancestors had and how they used them.

Steve

In New Mexico, we'd fine mano's and matate's. They work as a pair; the matate is the bigger rock on the ground, the mano was the one held in the hand. You'd grind stuff between them. We had a matched mano and matate in our yard (the mano was worn into the matate). They were quite common.

That sure looks like a mano, to me, but... hard to say on a computer screen.

No doubt about that. I'll still be looking for opinions -- it's nice when I can show it to someone in person.

Steve

I'm a Democrat so everything I say is a lie, huh?

Well yeah...you knew the job was dangerous when you took it,...