USN or USAF? by Bob Norris
Bob Norris is a former Naval aviator who also did a 3 year exchange tour
flying the F-15 Eagle. He is now an accomplished author of entertaining
books about US Naval Aviation including "Check Six" and "Fly-Off". In
response to a letter from an aspiring fighter pilot on which military
academy to attend, Bob replied with the following:


12 Feb 04

Young Man,

Congratulations on your selection to both the Naval and Air Force Academies.
Your goal of becoming a fighter pilot is impressive and a fine way to serve
your country. As you requested, I'd be happy to share some insight into
which service would be the best choice. Each service has a distinctly
different culture. You need to ask yourself "Which one am I more likely to
thrive in?"

USAF Snapshot: The USAF is exceptionally well organized and well run. Their
training programs are terrific. All pilots are groomed to meet high
standards for knowledge and professionalism. Their aircraft are top-notch
and extremely well maintained. Their facilities are excellent. Their
enlisted personnel are the brightest and the best trained. The USAF is
homogenous and macro. No matter where you go, you'll know what to expect,
what is expected of you, and you'll be given the training & tools you need
to meet those expectations. You will never be put in a situation over your
head. Over a 20-year career, you will be home for most important family
events. Your Mom would want you to be an Air Force pilot...so would your
wife. Your Dad would want your sister to marry one.

Navy Snapshot: Aviators are part of the Navy, but so are Black shoes
(surface warfare) and bubble heads (submariners). Furthermore, the Navy is
split into two distinctly different Fleets (West and East Coast). The Navy
is heterogeneous and micro. Your squadron is your home; it may be great,
average, or awful. A squadron can go from one extreme to the other before
you know it. You will spend months preparing for cruise and months on
cruise. The quality of the aircraft varies directly with the availability of
parts. Senior Navy enlisted are salt of the earth; you'll be proud if you
earn their respect. Junior enlisted vary from terrific to the troubled kid
the judge made join the service. You will be given the opportunity to lead
these people during your career; you will be humbled and get your hands
dirty. The quality of your training will vary and sometimes you will be over
your head. You will miss many important family events. There will be long
stretches of tedious duty aboard ship. You will fly in very bad weather
and/or at night and you will be scared many times. You will fly with legends
in the Navy and they will kick your ass until you become a lethal force. And
some days - when the scheduling Gods have smiled upon you - your jet will
catapult into a glorious morning over a far-away sea and you will be
drop-jawed that someone would pay you to do it. The hottest girl in the bar
wants to meet the Naval Aviator. That bar is in Singapore.

Bottom line, son, if you gotta ask...pack warm & good luck in
Colorado.

Banzai
____________________________________________________________

OK, you boys play nice!

I don't know but its been said.

Air Force wings are made of lead.

I don't know but I been told.

Navy wings are made of Gold.

I think I've read that at least 20 times and each time I do it makes me laugh.

priceless!

That's also true between the difference between the Army and the Marine Corps, from what I've been told.

How many of you guys know that the tax home of a active duty Naval officer is his ship at all times. A active duty Naval officer never has a land based tax home.

There's a lot of truth in those descriptions.

I have always got a kick out of that little tune.

Um no. You can't list a ship as a legal residence nor do I know any officer that only lives on the ship. It's far too depressing. Always remember that going to sea is like going to jail with the possibility of drowning.

Now the smart ones of us pick a tax free one. Mine was Florida and Washington.

Pugs is, of course, correct. Matters not if you're Air Force or Navy or on a ship or on an island off Alaska, your tax home is what you chose at some point in your military career, but it is a state. And as Pugs noted, the smart guys go with Florida or Texas as soon as they get a chance to be stationed there.

=============

Don't disregard the fact that DD knows and works for a accountant,man!! Far superior to a Holiday Inn Express stay!

Having ignored the advice of a 19 yr Airedale, 1 yr machine gunner/mechanic on a gunboat in Vietnam uncle by marriage and skipping the Navy and joining the Army....

Only to be assigned to Task Force 118, Joint Task Force Middle East and getting stuck on frigates and destroyers for months at a time in the Persian Gulf and training all up and down the Eastern US from Puerto Rico to Norfolk and after jumping out of various AF aircraft while in flight my advice to the boy would be join the Peace Corps!


Just kidding of course!

Army Aviation is where it's at.

Low and slow, 1st in last out!

Cav Scouts lead the way.


Mike

He forgot to say that the kid would be launched from a ship at night. If he doesn't get it off the deck right, or has a mechanical failure, the ship just might run his azz over. He would fly over open ocean, often in gale conditions. Find a fuel plane in the dark. Fly his mission. Find a fuel bird in the dark again. Find something that is relatively the size of a postage stamp, at night, and land on it.

Girls like Naval aviators because they got those big rocks hangin'

Of course we always had a midrats slider and autodog afterwards. I never wish I'd done anything else.

Pugs is right. I would estimate 90%+ of Naval Aviators are Florida residents (flight school starts in Pensacola, FL) for their Naval careers. State tax free. Ever wonder why the absentee ballots of Escambia county FL were such a big deal a couple of elections ago?

Here's what I want to know as far as naval aviation. Since WW2 we've only fought these little piss ant contries. What if we get in a big one, with China or Russia or both. What is the protocol if the ship is emissions silent? Darken ship, no radar emissions.

Like if there is a high threat of facing P-1B Shchuka-B/ SSN-1 Scrubber missles.

We practice (or used to practice anyway) EMCON ops all the time. It was not unusual to be EMCON for days at time.

Well like everything else with the government that has changed to. At one time the tax home or domicile of a Navy officer was a Navy ship. I checked with IRS regulation and it appears that is no longer true. Sorry.

Crap, even I can't keep up with the tax laws they change so fast. [bleep] computers!!!!!

Don't forget to tell him about living on board ship for months at a time with thousands of other horny dudes and, so I've heard from reliable sources, having to wear a chastity belt backwards while your bunkmate is spooning you.

Meanwhile, as an Air Force pilot, he would stay in nice hotels and get his own room with hot and cold running massage girls.

If I need close air support on the ground I'm callin' the Marines first. Yeah, we got planes too!

Um, no. They belong to the Navy, same as the Corps. Ever seen the wings on a Marine Aviator? Those are ours too. And as far as our civilian counterparts in the Air Force, just take a look at their refueling configuration and ours. We have a PROBE, they have a "hole" jorge

Seems to me, back in the day, when I was on the Blue Crew of SSBN 640, the ship was our legal residence, and this allowed us to deduct our rent, utilities, etc. when the other crew had the boat. I don't recall the exact details but it was a pretty good deal at the time.

Yeah I know they get trained and qualified as Naval Aviator's to start with, but Marine Aviation is primarily equipped, organized and trained for the support of the Fleet Marine Force in landing and other ground operations. All that other naval stuff is a secondary mission. I think Coast Guard pilots wear the Naval wings too.

Plus all Marine officers go to the Basic School, of which a good part is small unit tactics. They have at least an idea of what the guys on the ground may be doing. Nothing wrong at all with the naval guys (or AF), but being able to call someone that has a better idea of what the grunts are doing goes a long way.

Now, how about those AF combat air controller's? I started in the artillery as a forward observer and got to watch some of them in action. Pretty impressive....almost like they were conducting an orchestra!

USAF helo's use a probe.

If the Navy had big bad ass bombers, they'd use a boom as well.

Refueling a B-52 with a "probe"? Grab a snickers bar, you're gonna be a while.

I'm going to the Navy/Air Farce game in Colorado at the end of the month with about 5 of my old Naval Academy room mates. If you watch the game, we'll be the ones in the stands with the 20 foot funnel balloon launcher shooting water bombs at the zoomies

I was gonna play nice and not post this...... aw [bleep] it.

Way to go Navy!!!!!

Fighter jets almost sent after errant Navy drone
Lolita C. Baldor / Associated Press
Washington -- The U.S. military almost launched fighter jets and discussed a possible shoot-down when an errant Navy drone briefly veered into restricted airspace near the nation's capital last month, a senior military official said Thursday.

The incident underscores safety concerns with unmanned aircraft as defense officials campaign to use them more often during natural disasters and for homeland security.

Navy Adm. James Winnefeld Jr., head of Northern Command, said Thursday that the August mishap could hamper the Pentagon's push to have the Federal Aviation Administration ease procedures for drone use by the military in domestic skies.

"It certainly doesn't help our case any time there's a UAV (unmanned aerial vehicle) that wanders around a little bit outside of its controlled airspace," said Winnefeld, who also is commander of the U.S. North American Aerospace Defense Command. "We realize the responsibility on our part to include the technical capability and proper procedures. We'd just like to be able to get at it quicker."

Currently drones are used for patrols and surveillance along the nation's southern border, and sometimes at the northern border. But the military wants to use them more during hurricanes and other disasters to evaluate damage or target rescue efforts.

The FAA has been working for some time on new regulations governing the use of drones, but has yet to complete them. And the August incident brought one of the FAA's key concerns to bear -- the prospect that remote operators can lose communications with the aircraft.

Drones routinely operate in war zones, such as Iraq and Afghanistan, where there is much less business jet or small plane traffic. FAA officials say there is a greater danger of collisions with such smaller aircraft in the U.S., particularly when drones are flying at lower altitudes away from large cities and airports, in areas where planes aren't required to have transponders or collision warning systems.

In such cases, according to the FAA, it is more important for pilots to be able to see each other and take action.

Winnefeld said he agrees with the need for airspace safety, but maintains there is great demand for the drones.

Detroit News

And the reason the AF gets away with using a probe is due to the precision flying ability of AF pilots. Squids can't stay still long enough to take on gas so the hose on the drogue gives them a little extra flexability to move around......

That there's funny, I don't care who you be!

Back in the days of my youth I was rather fond of air support provided by Intruders. They were Jarhead driven as I recall, this up in the I Corps region.

OTOH, there was a couple of zealots from MAG-13 out of Chu Lai who put in a strike one day on a large bunker complex near Tien Phuoc, this being near about far enough from Chu Lai that their landing gear was retracted in their Phantoms. Lead rolled in, the crew exited via ejection seats and there followed one of the most colossal explosions I've witnessed.

We had two choppers shot up around the complex before the Jarheads arrived and took no fire after. I thought they were, like, really patriotic and dedicated, if not mildly insane. At the club that night amidst drunken revelry they admitted they'd had a hydraulic failure. Still, they put ord on the target despite the adversity.

As a former grunt, I know God invented gravity so aviators would at least have some degree of certainty where their Ordinance would eventually end up!

A few more points gents all in the "spirit" of course: The Navy owns every single Marine Airframe as well as the spare parts train. Of course Marines fly them, but they are Navy trained all the way and of course they do their own trainig as well. Now as to the probe/hole issue, don't know much about those big bombers, but even the USAF fighters have "holes"

Now see, that's what I'm talking about right there. You put those poor Navy guys on board a ship for months at a time showering and bunking in very close proximity with other guys and they eventually start fixating on the "holes" of of innocent Air Force men.

I'm thinking that's why they dress the Navy enlisted guys up in those crackerjack outfits.

Closest thing to drag...

LMFAO!

dang near as good as Beat the Penguin



to a man, THANK YOU


not only for your service, but your humor as well

That's why they have Marines on board...

Sheep are WAY to obvious...


USAF all the way

Sad,how very very sad when a service with virtually no history makes fun of one with over 200 years of traditions.

All I know is it's

Drink like a sailor
Swear like a sailor
Fight like a sailor
Screw like a sailor

All for a reason. Never hear an airman brag about all the snapper his bus driver's uniform got.....

Then again - the crackerjack is like superman's cape - ladies dig it. First liberty away from basic I had women pass me their number as I walked with my wife. Was freaking weird.

Hey, you guys started it with the scarf and "holes" stuff.

Just keep in mind, we've got the most nukes.

I always heard that each of the boomers was considered the 6th largest nuclear power in the world.

Perhaps, but that's probably because no Airman wears his uniform to go get laid. We live where we get stationed, CONUS or overseas, so we generally wear civilian clothes off base on nights and weekends.

In all seriousness though, this stuff is all in good fun. I doubt anyone in this thread has anything but respect for the other services. Hell, my little brother is retiring from the Navy in Norfolk end of this year after 20. Me and my siblings have 37 years of service in the AF, Navy, Marines and Army and that doesn't even count my father's 4 years as a Marine.

Dude - I was stationed on Lackland and San Angelo for a short period - I didn't wear my uni anywhere as I was sick of being different and on a non-naval base Different gets saluted. Drove me nuts.

I'm sure that's true but that's because after #1 #2, #3 and #4, the other powers are pretty limited.

As of 2006, the Air Force had roughly 3000 operational strategic nukes, the Navy 2000. Another 500 tactical nukes broke up between the Air Force and Navy and maybe the Army still maintains some tactical nukes.

You haven't lived until you pass a Pershing or GLCM on the autobahn and really don't know if one's live.... Showing my age on that one, I know.

Edit: Live as in carrying, they never actually had the warhead mounted.

I understand.

After my son graduated from high school, he entered the Marine Corps and I gave him no end of crap about it. He, of course, responded in kind. Eventually though the kid wised up, got his degree and became an officer...in the Air Force of course.

Absolutely. It's fun and we'll never give an inch and we've always got each others back.

Well, except for the blackshoe Navy, they're busy stabbing each other in the back.

You don't know what being different is until you wear Army bandsmen dress blues.

I got saluted once on an Army base. I was wearing my peacoat and whites. Dunno what about that screams "officer" but.... yet when I was walking with a Brit Captain, I had to chew people out every 10 feet for not saluting an officer. Different get's saluted unless it's the Queen's different.

I did an enlistment in the Navy and other than basic, I was never on a Naval base.

I doubt I would know what a Brit Capitan would look like.

A Army dress blue uniform for bandsman had gold braid going down the pant leg, gold braid going across the chest, and gold shoulder boards. IIRC our dress hats did not have scrambled eggs but were trimmed in gold. This was followed by a white shirt with black tie and patent leather shoes. We were allowed to wear battle ribbons and awards but no rank insignia. We looked like little Mexican generals.

Heck, even young freshly minted officers would salute and say sir. I guess they weren't taking any chances.

Yeah - what sucks about being an O-1 - you salute EVERYONE.

This is a bit off topic and start a fight. Since there is so many ex service men on here.
My daughter approached me yesterday about joining the service. She has one year behind her in college, with medical as her major.
She actually mentioned it as a career. She asked me what I thought? She does want to travel but also do something in the medical field if she joins.Navy seemed to be a first choice.

After reading the comments here, I would sure hate to have her on a ship. She is a strong willed, tough minded woman. Grew up in a hunting and fishing family.

Looking for pros and cons with Navy VS Air force. Also what she could do to further her medical experience in the service?

Well first finish her collage and get her medical degree. In twelve years than she can figure out what to do.

I think with a medical degree and a commission branch of service doesn't really matter but I could be wrong.

Or a land based Navy aircraft..........


Casey

The military is always looking for medical professionals of all sorts. Have her talk to an officer recruiter for the service of her choice and could be eligible for a full scholarship all the way through followed by what can be a very interesting career.

I have friend I went through flight school with who got out as an 0-3. Fooled around with some civilian jobs and decided she wanted to be a vet (at age 35!) The Army picked her up and gave her a full scholarship to Oklahoma and paid her a stipend while in school. In school she a 2nd lt then promoted to first Lt then Captain during her internship. When she finished her internship promoted to Major (1st to major total time like 8 months!). She's now in Belgium doing all the vet work for the working dogs within a few hundred miles and for the dependents pets. She's damn happy with her choice.

Yeah, but nobody knows where the Navy's are.

I bet she never thought of this. She originally wanted to be a vet. She has been brought up grooming and showing dogs. It was just the last two years she decided she might want to be a mid wife or similar.

I guess I am finding out more and more about each branch. The army was not considered but it adds another option.

I have heard of horror stories about the recruiting.I want to make sure if my daughter takes this leap, it's done right. I feel like I am going to be wading into a lot of used car salesman.

My recruiter never lied to me about a thing. Maybe because he knew I wasn't BS-ing him. Talk to an officer recruiter and also see about an ROTC scholarship of some sort.

Had a friend who had the Navy cover her nursing degree at Marquette University. That's 32k a year.

Not 100% sure, but I'm betting all three services have openings for Vets too.

If she doesn't fancy that now, all three will have various trades that involve working directly with dogs...

However, if she just likes being around animals, that brings us back to the Marines!

There are also reserve programs for the Air Force and Navy for medical professionals, where they give you a signing bonus and/or college tuition assistance in exchange for your commitment. When me and my wife were dating, the Navy courted her for almost a year, offering her an O-2 rank and a nice signing bonus to be a reservist on their pathology team.

Navy vs. Air Force. This thread reminded me of a cartoon I saw a while back. I couldn�t find the actual cartoon, but picture all these guys in the same massive storm with thunder, lightning, and torrential rain and your imagination will do the rest.

An Army GI with a 40lb pack on his back & rifle in hand stands in the mud with torrential rain pouring down, looking thoroughly miserable, and says, "This sucks."

An Army Airborne Ranger having jumped from an airplane and then having marched 15 miles with a 50 lb. pack plus his weapon, stands knee deep in mud from the same storm says with a smile, "I like the way this sucks!"

A Special Forces soldier lies in the mud, weapon in hand, after swimming 3 miles to shore, crawling through a swamp and marching 25 miles at night past enemy positions says with a grin, (while biting the head off a snake) "I wish it would suck more....."

An Air Force fighter pilot flying over the battlefield looks down at the storm below and says: "Looks like it sucks down there!"

An Air Force sergeant, as he jumps up from his recliner in the barracks day-room with a look of horror on his face (the torrential rain storm outside is visible through the barracks window), stares at the static on the TV screen and exclaims, "Oh no, the cable's out! This sucks!"

It's all good, except Black Shoes, Pork Chops and P-3 Maggots..

jorge

i forwarded some of the comments from people that spent time in branches of the services other than air force to a recently retired air force major friend of mine:
the following was his response to me:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, heard it all before. The writer clearly does not understand Joint Doctrine. Love to have the discussion with him, because I'll bury him with facts about how things really work.

I understand how and why the Corps jealously guards its air power in a joint environment. I have had many discussions, both in an academic and operational environment about this with my Marine comrades. However, at the end of the day, air power belongs to the Joint Forces Air Component Commander (JFACC), and as the JFACC I'll bloody well tell you what you're going to do with your airplanes. Yes, as a matter of doctrine and operational necessity, I'll grant the Marines a degree of latitude with their air power.

Bottom line: I don't care who is writing the check, as JFACC, I control the airspace. Only in the most rare circumstances is the JFACC any one else than an Air Force officer.

BTW, ask the Marine and Navy aviators who they get their gas from when they're over Afghanistan. I'll guarantee you it ain't from Marine tankers. Then ask them who actually provides most of the close air support, and also ask if they'd prefer an A-10 or an F-18 when the stuff hits the fan.

I recall the old saying about how the services speak the same language but think differently. Take the simple saying "secure the building"

Tell that to the army and they park an Abrams tank out front, build two watch towers and set an all night watch.

Tell it to the Marines and they dig in fighting positions, set up multiple .50 cal positions with interlocking fields of fire and mine all the approaches

Tell it to the Navy and we would turn out the lights, set the Petty Officer of the watch, lock the doors and go home.

Tell that to the USAF and they get a two year lease with an option to buy.

JFACC is indeed the king in a joint environment and the ATO rules the Air...BUT, when/IF a host country is nice enough to allow us the time and effort to pre-stage tankers, logistics, golf courses and O' Clubs the AF needs in order to start operations, but when the [bleep], the first thing the NCC asks is "where are the carriers." During the first Gulf War and Saddam went over the wire into Kuwait, the Kitty Hawk was there within 18 hrs pretty much daring the Iraquis to violate Saudi Airspace and within a week, two more Carriers were there with air power.

Further, if one were to count the number of times Naval Aviation was employed since WWII through today and compare it to AF use, well, it ain't even in the same universe. Or take a look at kill ratios in Vietnam. As to the A-10 vs FA/18, hey, I HATE the Hornet so no skin of my nose there, but the reality is the AF HATES the A-10 and the CAS mission and the F-22 validates that. Besides, my mother can land on a 10K runway.... jorge

? In multiple places I've been the JFACC has been other than USAF, in fact on one it was a Brit Jaguar guy.

There's lots of tanking from other than USAF tankers out there. Brit VC-10's and there's a heck of lot of Marine C-130's giving gas, especially to Harriers and Helo's. Tanking off a C-130 in a Prowler is a pain in the ass.. Pull up, put the flaps and slats rto 20 degrees and quickly pull the flaps/slat circuit breaker so you get the flaps to slide aft, giving you extra wing area but before the slats come out or the flaps go down increasing your drag count.

LOL, I like that.

Well now,I'm not sure of this story and I haven't run it past Snopes, so if it's wrong let me know. Being an Army aviator I really don't have a dog in the fight so I'll tell it like I heard it.

Due to the "First come, first serve" clause and the fact that the Navy came to be long before the Air Force, and because the Navy sailed to distant lands and made port amidst exotic women with strange customs,it was the Navy what invented the condom with use of a sheep's bladder.

Sometime later and due to similar needs, the Air Force improved the invention by removing it from the sheep first.

And while I'm at it I'll relate another unverified story that has a ring of truth to it.

LITTLE KNOWN TIDBIT OF NAVAL HISTORY...
The U. S. S.. Constitution (Old Ironsides), as a combat vessel, carried 48,600 gallons of fresh water for her crew of 475 officers and men. This was sufficient to last six months of sustained operations at sea. She carried no evaporators (i.e. fresh water distillers).

However, let it be noted that according to her ship's log, "On July 27, 1798, the U.S.S. Constitution sailed from Boston with a full complement of 475 officers and men, 48,600 gallons of fresh water, 7,400 cannon shot, 11,600 pounds of black powder and 79,400 gallons of rum."

Her mission: "To destroy and harass English shipping."
Making Jamaica on 6 October, she took on 826 pounds of flour and 68,300 gallons of rum.

Then she headed for the Azores , arriving there 12 November.. She provisioned with 550 pounds of beef and 64,300 gallons of Portuguese wine.

On 18 November, she set sail for England . In the ensuing days she defeated five British men-of-war and captured and scuttled 12 English merchant ships, salvaging only the rum aboard each.

By 26 January, her powder and shot were exhausted. Nevertheless, although unarmed she made a night raid up the Firth of Clyde in Scotland . Her landing party captured a whisky distillery and transferred 40,000 gallons of single malt Scotchaboard by dawn. Then she headed home.
The U. S. S. Constitution arrived in Boston on 20 February 1799, with no cannon shot, no food, no powder,no rum, no wine,no whisky, and 38,600 gallons of water.

GO NAVY!

We can frame these kind of arguments to benefit either service, we both know that.

The Air Force flew nearly 60% of the sorties in Desert Storm, despite only having 50% of the assets and shot down 90% of the air to air kills in the war. Nevermind that we also supplied the overwhelming majority of supplies and equipment to the theater.

And even the fact that we flew the majority of sorties is misleading, as the tonnage we dropped on ground units with our F-111's, B-52's and B-1's dwarfed the tonnage dropped by the Navy.

The Air Force was also the first to drop bombs in Desert Storm, because we had the only asset that could be trusted to get in undetected and take out major C3 sites before they knew what was coming.

The fact is Naval Aviation is not as efficient as the Air Force. You simply cannot turn your aircraft around off a carrier as fast as we can and in a war with a real enemy, you have to hold back more assets than we do, for CAP.



I sincerely doubt this one, but again, it's how we frame the statement. Are we talking combat sorties since WWII? Because there is no way the Navy leads that one.

You simply can't count the occasional skirmish with a Banana Republic like two Libyan Mig-23's and compare those to Major wars.

USAF flew the overwhelming majority of missions in the Berlin Airlift.
USAF flew the overwhelming majority of sorties in Vietnam.
USAF flew the majority of sorties in Desert Storm.
USAF flew the overwhelming majority of sorties in the Korean War.
USAF has flown the overwhelming majority of combat sorties since WWII.

USAF also, through SAC, made sure the Cold War was kept cold while we were playing in those other wars.

Lots of powder blue Kool-Aid there Foxbat.

I'm relaxing on vacation in Rhode Island and don't want to get into but I will point out, if you want to get technical, that the first weapons fired during ODS were US Army Apaches shooting up radar sites.

The Navy and the USAF have very different versions of air to air. The USAF throws lots of fighters up on CAP and the Navy simply escorts the strikers in and out. The USAF wrote the Air Tasking Order and made damn sure that they were going to be where the air to air action happened. The USN had two opportunities, maybe three, In one n F/A-18 shot down both his attackers then went on and hit his ground target. In the second, the VF-84 Tomcats were called off so a Saudi Eagle (flown by a Saudi Prince) could get his kills.

As far as strike cycles, those missions flown by B-2's from Missouri or B-52's from Louisiana half way around the world are not exactly high-cycle.

The USAF is now sending newly winged pilots direct to Predators. I'm sure they'll be giving them Air Medals for it next.

I know the ex-Navy guys can land a 727 a lot better.

Your "turnaround" statement is way off the mark. When we held war games (and in Lybia for example) our turnaround mission sortie was considerably faster. As far as hldong back assets for CAP, depends on the mission of course and just one carrier on station severely limits that as does the "one deep" endurance of the flight deck crews and one carrier can become vulnerable but then again we can just withdraw. Everything else you said is spot on. Once a conflict starts, of course one would expect the AF to run the "air show" after all it is the AF. What I was referring to is the amount of time Naval Aviation was called upon in a national crisis. Check the USN/USAF kill ratio in Vietnam Vs MiGs, not nessesarily a "Banana Republic."

When I was involved in the "money wars" in the Pentagon, we used to compare what the AF spent on Wheelus AFB and building the USS Saratoga. We all know where Wheelus is and how much we used it as compared to the many times the Saratoga was employed in the national interest. Bottom line is Naval Aviation is a tactical enterprise with a totally different mindset than the AF as a whole. Here's another huge philosophical difference between the two: The Air Force mentality and doctrine is guided by a huge library of SOPs and Regulations and if it is NOT found in any of their Pubs well you CAN'T do it. The Navy (and USMC) has one rather thin bool called 3710 and if it NOT in there, well then feel free to do it. It's a huge difference--not to mention that issue regarding tailhooks....

There was some small arms fire by some Army Airborne units, even before that, but let's stick to the subject at hand.

This was a very misleading claim.



As to the B-2's, not really relevant is it?
You don't fly 60% of the sorties with 50% of the assets unless you are more efficient. Not sure how that can be spun any other way.

A coupls of more thoughts while I think of them; In terms of the Cold War and SAC, totally apples and oranges. Naval Aviation had ZERO role in the TRIAD, we didn't need to, we had SSBNs. More on turnaround times, during El Dorado Canyon (Lybia) in 86, the AF was forced to fly their F-111s all the way from the UK, requiring many tedious, air-crew tiring tanking missions while the Navy with two carriers on scene flew continuous "Flex deck" operations with about a 15-20 turnaround time, no issues there. When I was CHief OF Staff and the Navy Training Wing in Pensacola where we also emply AF Training assets, I was given the opportunity to fly and instruct on the AF's T-1. I lasted ONE flight. The rigid checklist intensive training was too much for thsis old aviator. In the Navy when you show up to your first Squadron as a Lt (jg) or even as an Ensign (0-1) it's not long before you are given the "keys" and over the horizon you go. Contrast that with the AF where it takes years to attain the latitude and flexibility we give our nuggett aviators. Like I said, totally different mindset. Not nessesarily better, but out of nessesity a lot more flexible and totally less corporate. jorge

jorge - that attitude is prevalent in the enlisted jobs as well. Once thing that really shocked me - I mean flat out shocked me, was how much like children the AF treated their folks.

In the Navy - you graduate boot, you're a sailor and respected by your "elder" enlisted until proven otherwise. Didn't seem to be the case in the other branches (Marines we the same as Navy tho) with the AF being the worse.

Sure you can. 50% of the assets when yo add in the Brits, Saudis, French etc that were part of the ATO, plus when you add all of the other than "green ink" combat sorties? When the Navy runs Flex Deck, there is just no faster turn around. Trust me on that. Speaking of B-2s, there ain't w whole lot of things more exciting than flying that hog in full Zone FIve Burner at 500 FEET with Terrain Following engaged. Forget the rush, just watching the FUEL TOTALIZER gauge is enough to give anybody a woody.

Teal: The AF is a hugely professional and smooth organization but it is just to rigid and top heavy (at least in my experience) for this old Navy puke. jorge

That doesn't explain how USAF flew 60% of the sorties with 50% of the assets.

I'm not sure I see where you're going with the "amount of time...called upon.."? If USAF flew the majority of combat sorties since WWII, then what "amount of time" are we talking about? Cuban Missiles crisis? That was USAF F-101's that discovered the canisters and site prep. Libya? We were there with you. Vietnam, Korea? We already know the sortie share. Berlin? USAF. How many SR-71, U-2 flights over enemy territory during the Cold War? How about Berlin for lunch flights? Etc., Etc.

When it's all hashed out, you just can't claim we weren't in the same universe for combat time or sorties, the numbers aren't there.

You're correct of course on kill ratios in Nam. USAF screwed the pooch on the tactics of Air Combat heading into Vietnam, but I wasn't arguing that. We still flew a hell of a lot more combat sorties in Vietnam so obviously I wasn't calling that a Banana Republic.

I love you guys, but don't crap on me. I was there in Desert Storm working 12/12's targeting missions and sweating my ass off in an NBC suit and hoping Saddam didn't lose him mind and send a Scud my way. We're everything we all joke about, but we also took our jobs real serious.

Teal, my friend. I've mentioned to you before, you were on an AF training base, the mother of Air Force training bases. The difference between Lackland and Goodfellow and the REAL Air Force is night and day.

It's too bad you didn't do a tour in USAFE, you would have seen a very different Air Force than you saw.

Foxbat - I'm talking San Angelo and DLI, where one would EXPECT there to be a short leash on everyone. It was above and beyond what I would have expected. I'm also talking about Lackland where people have already been in the AF for 2.5 years and aren't even on Lackland proper but the annex.

You had senior AF people who had been away and back treating other AF people who had been in 2+ years like they were a recruit fresh off the bus and this was in the SCIF, not the parade ground. It wasn't just one or 2 people either.


I saw it to an extent in the USA too but once a guy had his beret - he was okay. Little weird that I wasn't allowed to talk to them or hang out with them prior to them winning there beret with flash but I don't know - that's an Army thing.

From my friends still in - it's changed some at DLI, perhaps it was a CO thing but the annex sure wasn't. Hell I was treated better by the AF folks than they treated their own. There was a huge culture of "who's got the largest c*ck".

Not crapping on you at all and if I gave that impression I apologize. Naval Air can't compete with AF's volume of sorties, no way, but that DEsert Storm Figure is deceiving but that's not the issue. What I was referring to was the number of times Navy Carriers responded to international crises during the post WWII era. Of course the AF flew more once the crap hit the fan. Like I said, two totally different missions, but take it from someone who was heavily involved in sorties flown vs turnaround time, the carrier Flex Deck has no equal. But in that regard where the AF has it all over a carrier is in SUSTAINABILITY. We are limited to the endurance of the flight deck crew (we Have only ONE Air Boss for example) and we can usually go for about 44-48 hrs before we just drop dead whereas the AF can go virtually forever from an unopposed Airfield.

San Angelo is Goodfellow AFB. It's an ATC (training base) just like Lackland. The Air Force is (was) huge, our ATC bases were training bases alone. Sure you had some real world missions on a few of them, like Lackland but where you worked had originally been controlled out by ESC Kelly AFB next store, until BRAC killed it. Lackland got it by default.

Even though some units are real on those bases, they were still ATC Command bases and a base reflects the MAJCOM they are. ATC bases are regimented, stiff, unflexible and run by douchebags that failed at their original AFSC and went to ATC where they could bully recruits and trainees.

I did my Reserve duty next door at Kelly AFB for 4 years. I despised even going to Lackland to shop. I would have rather been stationed at a remote in Shemya Alaska than at Lackland.

I went to Lackland to go home (lived on base - backed up against the fence towards whatever it's called that fixes the big cargo planes these days) and to buy liquor. That was it.

It's all good, Jorge. Like I've said before, I got nothing but respect for you guys, but I'm going to defend my boys as well.

We used to have good pizzing matches like this on mids all the time. The pilot thing died down when Chief Kostek asked an AF guy to land on a carrier - at night in heavy seas.

Medina annex used to be very laid back, but that was when it was under Kelly AFB control. If I am guessing right, you were there after 1994? And thus it probably changed a lot when Lackland took over control of the annex. When it was ESC, it had good people and autonomy as it was it's own MAJCOM. When the AF reorganized, it lost it's MAJCOM status and with the technical closure of Kelly as an individual base, it fell under the evil eye of Sauron, err.. Lackland AKA Air Training Command.

See...that just proves he passed his psych eval.

I'll tell you another fun story in my otherwise dull career. I was at the Dallas Safari Club convention with another Navy buddy of mine and Pugs. We were still Active Duty so we were there in our Mess Dress and as guests of some good people there. Well General Yeager is a fixture there and one of my heroes so we just had to meet him at the Bar. Naturally it didn't take long for the bantering to commence and the Good General was giving it to us right and left about all of his noteworthy accomplishments and yucking it up. Well it was time for a re-attack whereupon I asked the good General "say General how many traps you got?" "what's that?, none you say???, well sir, you can have my autograph if you wish"! We had a great time, took some pictures of all of us together and we still say hello every year at Dallas..

For the most part the Annex was incredibly lax - I left there in 06 tho. It just seemed like the AF got crapped on by their own people the most for really stupid things. Like reflective belts on their PT gear - while those of us in the Navy wore whatever we wanted as PT wasn't considered part of our duty/watch and we were expected to do it as homework - so to speak.

We had our limits as well. In all of our NATO exercises we usually went 3-4 days 12/12's. We would invariably surge on the last day and all die from a nuke or chem/conv attack. But in reality, after all those sorties by day 3-4 we were dead, physically, from exercise attrition, mentally and running low on aircraft that were 100% operational. Course we had RF-4C's which were high maintenance and we didn't have the benefit of the reserves we would allegedly get in the real thing.

Course we weren't supposed to survive past 3-4 days anyways... We were the shock absorbers until the Cavalry arrived from CONUS.

See, that's training command crap. Dear lord... There is no such thing as PT on real Air Force bases. I played racquetball at lunch or went golfing on Friday afternoons or played pickup tackle football (against regs but who cared) on the weekends, but it had nothing to do with someone telling me to do it and we certainly never wore reflectors or PT gear.

Very cool. "Traps" I assume that's carrier landings? Yeager is a good man.

Rolling pert good...

I would prefer a hot single ship LZ at night to night carrier ops.

Jorge I totally agree with this statement.."rigid and top heavy" an understatement IMO especially in SEA in 69 - 70...AKA too many chiefs and no indians.I know it probably isn't that bad now because all branches are much more professional than in those days.

My whole experience was in ground attack/support and nothing else so I can't speak for the "Fast Mover" guys.Our mission was solely linked to who could get to the fight the quickest and save lives...our best buds were many carrier based A1's and cobra gunships...didn't make a dam difference to the guys on the ground about aircraft branch of service as long as there was ordinance being put on target.

We had a very fast turn around to rearm and refuel to get back in the fight..as fast as carrier ops I don't know but really apples and oranges....We all did our job and were proud of what we did...that I think was the bottom line..interservice rivilary always a fun topic but at the end of the day we're all on the same team.......FLEM

Both the Swabbies and the Zoomies did right by us but I liked how easy it wuz to sell "genuine" gunshot.bloodstained VC battle flags to the Air Farce remfs at Pleiku Made enuff to get the whole platoon drunker than skunks

Didn't loose a minutes sleep over it..Did ya..

Nope!! However, most of us had periodic hospitalizations to repair leakage and would often stay overnite at Air Force and/or Navy bases travelling back to unit and the hospitality extended by both services to the groundpounders was absolutely without flaw or peer. It did appear however that we were looked at as if we wuz knuckle dragging trogdolytes

Great video and about covers it, except I didn't need to hear the editorail comments from that female Air Traffic Controller with NO CLUE as to what it takes to fly in that crap.

That female butterbar drove me nuts and not in a good way. She knew she was on TV the whole time and that's why you saw what you did...

It's bad enough to put up with the "Plat LSOs(Pilot, Landing Aid Television) in the ready room without getting critiqued by some female with no clue about why some poor sap trying to land at night on a pitching deck should have done better. STFU and get me a sandwich...jorge