How much energy is generally required to kill an elk with any given caliber? What is the cut off to stop shooting at an elk and expect it to die when hit in the heart and lungs?

I believe that 1,500 foot pounds of energy delivered at the target is traditionally considered minimal. I read this in P.O. Ackley's writings, but this was before the wide-spread use of modern controlled-expansion bullets.

Of course, folks have used 243 Winchesters and 30-30's and been successful - can only guess at the wounded game rate.

no minimum.....if the bullet punches deep enough to disrupt the plumbing the critter dies......the whole minimum energy thing becomes real stupid once you realize ppl kill the damn things with arrows......[bleep] up the plumbing and you have a dead elk.....

I'm no expert, but I've seen plenty of long range videos showing elk dropping in their tracks from the little 6.5x284.

Then again, they probably don't publish their wounded/lost footage.

If you are 3 miles from the truck, it's 20 below and uphill over talus slope to the truck, it takes a bunch of energy

I believe energy is irrelevant , you put a hole through both lungs and let the air out and they won't go far regardless of cal or energy.

This is one of those questions that has no answer- It's similar to asking "How much gas does it takes to get to the grocery store" without knowing where the person lives, what he drives or which grocery store he goes to.

I think its velocity not energy that is the key metric. You need enough to expand your bullet when it hits. If you carry enough velocity/energy to expand a hunting bullet you likely have enough for a broadside shot on most animals. Some bullets may require a little less but I would say a good bullet in a reasonable caliber at 2000fps should kill most things hit well.

I managed to drop a 650 lb, 11 yr old cow elk, with a 165 grain 30 cal Ballistic tip, at 175yds that left the muzzle at 2250 fps.

destroyed both lungs, cut the esophagus and blew up the upper half of its liver.

it was at a dead run and made it another 60 yds or so, and then collapsed.

don't think we were dealing with big energy figures there..

Good concept for centerfires but doesn't apply to 400-grain .50-caliber bullets from muzzleloaders at around 1500-1600 MV, with well under 1,000 ft.-lbs at reasonable ranges.

The well-placed shot is the key to it all, instead of worrying about "energy" start worrying about your marksmanship and hunting skills used to get close enough for a sure-thing clean shot. Bowhunters and flintlock shooters kill elk, but they know how to hunt and shoot.

As has been said on this thread:

Energy is a poor indicator of killing power.

The key is to punch about a 1/2" or larger hole through vital plumbing.

With spitzer type bullets, penetration is remarkably constant over a pretty broad operating range. If impact speed is in that range, it does not matter whether the bullet came from a 30-30 or a 300 RUM, the result will be essentially the same.

Most standard cup and core bullets need at least 2100 FPS at impact, and no more than 2800 FPS at impact. Partitions, for example, open at 1800 FPS and make about the same length wound channel to over 3200 FPS. Pay attention to keeping your bullet's impact speed within its design range, and you'll get pretty uniform results.

Use a standard bullet for a close in shot at 3000 FPS, and you're begging for problems.

More muzzle velocity does not get you deader critters. It gets you a longer, flatter trajectory.

I concur, its all about bullet construction and placement...energy smenergy.

You can't compare a bullet to an arrow. The mode of killing is totally different. An arrow cuts as it goes through and penetration is much more unless it hits a big bone.

An arrow lacks the energy of a bullet, but it has much more momentum because of it's much greater weight.

A bullet rips and tears as it goes through....

The amount of energy is a moot point, because energy numbers will not rate terminal performance. A better question to ask is "How much penetration is required and how large of a wound channel to effectively take an Elk"

dont shoot beyond your limitations, and use a suitable caliber.

thats how much energy is required.

The mode of killing is the same wheather arrow or bullet, they both kill by massive hemorage and or by taking out the cental nervous system. No magic

Harumph !!!!!!!!!!!!!

FC

yep, end result is the same, drop in blood pressure to the brain....arrow or bullet, interrupt blood flow to the brain and the critter dies......both get the exact same result just use different methods of propulsion to get there.....

The arrow cuts through the blood vessels and nerves. A bullet blasts it's way through. I heard of a guy who killed an elk with an arrow on a really lousy shot - he hit it in the lower leg. It bled out and he recovered it several miles away. I doubt you'd find most animals that badly hit with a bullet.

I've seen animals hit in the ham bleed out rather quickly when the femal artery is crushed by a bullet

Answer may depend upon whether you are going to shoot it in the eye/brain, through the gut, or somewhere in between. IMHO, placement is much more important than any specific fps or terminal ft. lbs.

As has been stated earlier, bullet construction is more important than energy figures. Deer season '09, I had a harder time killing a deer at 30 yards with a .308 loaded with 150 grain SSTs at 2800 fps at the muzzle, than I did killing a deer at 236 yards with a .30-30 loaded with 170 grain FPs at 2184 fps at the muzzle. There was a vast difference in the amount of energy at impact, but the .30-30 still made a through and through hole, with signs of expansion. The SST blew up on impact.

The following year proved a change of bullet in the .308 was all that was needed.

With Elk, it's important to choose a bullet that will drive in deep and break things. (cough, cough, TSX, cough) Elk are more demanding of bullet integrity than a Whitetail deer.

Femoral artery damage is one of the quickest ways for a human to die as well. Recent knife murder nearby here- guy was cut in the thigh, bled out before EMT's arrived. They figured less than 10 minutes.

Body only has about 5.5 to 6 liters of blood in total.. and it doesn't have to be bone dry to cut enough blood flow to the brain to shut the entire system down. So a good enough leak in the closed blood system, doesn't take very long... on deer or humans... or elk.

This is the exit in the off side rib cage of a 6X7 bull Elk from a 180 grain fired from a 300 win mag the impact energy was aproximately 2700 FPE. I am holding a loaded 300 win cartridge for size comparison




The is the exit in the same Bull Elk from a 500 JRH shooting a 440 grain wide meplat hard cast at about 950 FPS for a muzzle energy of 888 FPE

Again I am holding a loaded 300 win mag round for size comparison




The larger wound was caused by a round with about 1/3 of the amount of energy of the 300 win

Energy is a very poor indicator of lethality

Exactly

I would think Energy would play a big role in hydrostatic shock, but not so much in wound channel size.

Other considerations such as bullet construction, caliber, along with energy would be the determining factors on wound channel width and length (penetration).

Jm

So 80 gr 777 and a 300gr bullet will be good enough out of my .50 cal sidelock, (basically my deer load), for my first elk venture this year)?

JM-
Google hydrostatic shock and Dr. Fackler. That concept is pretty well debunked.

What bullet?

If you have enough accuracy to reliably hit vitals, you usually have enough energy to kill them.

its not the volts so much as the amps

The question should be more general than how much energy does it take to kill and elk. After all people have killed polar bears and tigers with 22lr so a 22lr should be able to kill an elk. The question you should ask is what is the recommended cartridges for elk hunting.

You don't get many opportunities at an elk so you should use a cartridge that maximizes you chances for success. You need to have penetration from what every angle you happen to see him and out to 300 yards or so. You also want something that will drop the elk relatively close to where its shot. Having it run 5 miles or more and dying in the brush is not a good thing.

The generally accepted best cartridge for elk is the 338 mag. It will do all that you need for elk. The general big game cartridges - 270, 308, 7mm mag, 3006, 300 win will do ok though it would be best if you use controlled expansion bullets for better penetration.

It depends on whether or not you have blue tape over your muzzle.

The 260 Rem with a TTSX or Partition is good for elk to 900 yards, and a 270 Wby is good a little farther. A 340 Wby is needed for ranges farther than that because it kicks more, so it hits harder.

don't tell that to the 10's of thousands of elk that have been killed with less.
elk aren't superior ironsided steel boned super animals. they are just really big deer. I've killed them with a variety of cartridges and calibers and bullet weights. from a 90 gr bullet moving fast to a 180 grain bullet moving slow. from a 25 caliber to a .30 cal and you know what? they all killed elk when hit in the right place, and they all died within feet of where I shot.
this question has been asked and asked and asked and asked.

if you're worried about energy, some states have a requirement, I don't remember what it is but something like 800 ft/lbs at 100 yards. and a minimum of 24 caliber. some guys use the 1000 ft lbs of energy at moment of impact as a reference. if the bullet doesn't go where it needs to, its a moot point. shoot something big enough to take down a big deer, and hit them in the vitals. nature will take care of the rest.

Do you know how that was determined?

Well said, jwp!

When you think about it - nothing - is what kills the elk.
As in - nothing - where tissue used to be.
In other words - the hole.
The hole should go through important organs.
Location of said hole - is very important.
The bigger around the hole is - the faster the animal dies.
And that's all I have to say about that.

A 22 will do it. In one ear and out the other.

I would say just enough energy to put a hole(preferably two) through the 'clockwork'- just like any other game animal.
Anything more than that is wasted out the other side.
JMO.

would hazard a guess the 30-06 is used more than any and is perfectly adequate hell prolly ideal as more can shoot it easier than a 338 Win Mag.....most the elk hunters i know top out at a 300 Win Mag, plenty use 30-06's, 308's, 270 Wins ect......my daughter carries a 7-08 and is far from under gunned.....

I don't know a lot of elk hunters personally ,but the ones I do prefer the 270 WCF and 30-06 to most other stuff.
I do know a fella that has had great luck with the 45-70 on the Wapiti. I guess that big ol slug flattens 'em!

How close does one have to be to achieve a pass-through, Scott?

Yeah...

I've never shot one, so I don't know. With a kid in college and the economy sucking wind, it may be awhile before I can.

In the meantime, I asked an elk that was part of a herd that resides in a high fence enclosure near where I hunt.

He didn't know, because he has never shot an elk either.

Your insane if you think that you can shoot any game animal at 900 yards! You will have to hit it and by the time you get to it it will be long gone.

Just like the man said -- location, location, location. Put a bullet deep enough into the lungs/heart, and eat elk. Energy is moot.

If you get to it, how could it be gone? Is it a pot-a-gold kind of thing?

With decent bullets, the product of energy and sectional density will give a good idea of penetrating destructiveness.
Bill St.Clair's muzzle energy computer is here:
http://billstclair.com/energy.html

Plug in your bullet weight, down range velocity, and bullet caliber and you will get the computations.
For example, a 45ACP with 230gr @800fps(muzzle) gives an E*SD of 53, and is not something you would want to shoot an elk with.
A 150gr 30/30 with a velocity of 1700fps(200yds) gives an E*SD =229, which would be about the absolute minimum,IMO, for sport hunting of elk. But the biggest you can shoot accurately is best.

A 300gr .375H&H downrange 200yds with velocity slowed to 2200 has an E*SD of 983!

A 270 gr .375 at 500yds with velocity of 1933fps still has an E*SD over 600.

It should wort to say 20 yards or so.

In reality it is somewhat surprising what a little bullet will do in just the right place. Through the spine just in front of the shoulder, in one ear and out the other. I have always felt bullet placement is far more important than a one pound bullet at 6,000 FPS.

SD is as moot as "energy". SD doesn't take into account,THE most important facet of comparison...projectile integrity/construction. As per SD,ALL boolits of like diameter/weight have identical values,which is the grandest of ruses in their relative abilities,when extrapolated to eachother.

Here is the ascending order of what controls terminal affects.

1) Placement
2) Projectile integrity
3) Headstamp

You boys and your Fluff.................

+1.........

1) Placement--covered by "accuracy"
2) Projectile integrity--covered by "decent bullets"
3) Headstamp--more than covered by caliber and velocity

What you're missing is that it still takes energy and penetration to kill. A perfect bullet hitting with perfect placement from a cartridge with your favorite headstamp won't kill if it's far enough downrange or loaded to such low velocity that it will fail to penetrate.
Taint fluff, just basic smarts.

Cite the distance with a given boolit,when they start to bounce off...instead of "stick".

Impact velocity/projectile construction,matters far more than "energy". An underhand toss of a grapefruit to your peabrain,might only straighten your crossed eyes...but an icepick in your ear with like velocity,will give you the cure. That despite your frilly grapefruit "energy" notion(s).

Smarts ain't your gig,if only obviously..................

I smell "delete".

Laffin'...............

Betcha that smell is your nigh frozen-brain trying to scramble around, warm up, and figure out WTF energy and sectional density mean.

I shoot too much,to let Fluffers and their fluff skew reality. It's entertainin' though!

"Energy" and "SD" are feel-good axioms,to satiate the clueless in their oblivious quest,to feign experience...less yanking a trigger and spilling blood.

Cracks me up................

An Ice-pick/fist with a combined mass of 4000gr and a velocity of 90fps, and a pick diameter of 0.15 would have an E*SD of 2855. Pretty good for penetration. The mass and small diameter provides an effective SD to overcome the relatively low velocity.

A rubber balloon of like dimension,would share that SD and lack the cure.

Love it when guys that don't shoot,pretend they do.

This is great!...............

Crying...

""Energy" and "SD" are feel-good axioms,to satiate the clueless in their oblivious quest,to feign experience...less yanking a trigger and spilling blood.

Cracks me up................"

I can see and hear the cracks. However, no good treatment is available for you, I fear.

Fantasy ain't a "treatment" for Reality sweetheart..............

That's why you should still be searchin' for a cure.

Been dealin' the cure from inception.

I'm afforded the luxury of not being forced to guess................

Nor to think overmuch

Don't take much reflection,to note how things met their maker.

What color is your Cough Silencer?................

Well now I'm puzzled. What is a cough silencer, and why is color important?

You've never not been puzzled and that's the allure of your Posting.

It's like NASCAR...you know the crash is coming,but never quite when............

Your imagination knows no bounds.

Nor, apparently, your self importance.

And to sum up all this energy stuff and other nonsense does not require high intelligence or political standing. What kills things are holes in the right place, don't make any difference how close, far away or how much your big gun recoils. Them holes is what does it.

About 3.5 lbs. or so. I don't know what everyone else has their trigger pull set at but that's mine.

Arrows kill them and yes putting holes in the right place. But when you miss the right spots, you need a bullet that will do lots of damage so you can still get the job done. Oherwise your having track soup for diner.

The use of SD or similar formula as an indicator of "Killing Power" took hold from the old African writers such a Pondoro Taylor. Taylor's forumla has validity because he was concerned with "solids" and how they performed in big game, primarily elephant..

Trying to switch the formula's to something as variable as a softpoint bullet is an exercise in futility and over complicates a situation where experience and common sense should rule...

Just seems like some where energy and mass count for something.

La-La Land perhaps,but in the Real World?

It's meaningless fluff................

I hear they're the same color as butt-out tools, which can make for some interesting juxtapositions.

with soft pointed bullets your SD figures are [bleep] after hitting the first inch of flesh.....SD figures are great whenfiguring out whats gonna happen to a bullet in flight or a solid once it hits IF it holds its shape.....means very lil once a soft point hits flesh....once flesh is hit bullet construction is 100 times more important than SD.....

A softpoint hitting flesh will change its velocity, it diameter and its mass, all rather quickly...Somebody going to need to be real speedy on a slide rule to keep up with the changing energy and SD figures so calculated...

And with premium bullets of the same construction in the same caliber, in normal big game calibers, the penetration and destructiveness will still be a function of SD and E.

If you choose low SD and low E, or think these make no difference in effectiveness, you're beyond argument.
People can drive poorly constructed bullets at such high velocities that they destruct on impact, but that is something most experienced shooters would strive to stay away from.

Reality is a great Fluff Remover..............

This will be great too.

Please cite as per your findings,from boolits fired in the firsthand on Critters,the relative lineal extrapolation ratios of expansion,as geared towards SD/Energy.

Then we'll get to penetration..................(grin)

It's pretty simple, really. If you take a monolithic .284 bullet, and print out drop and drift tables to 800 yards in a fairly large font, and do the same with a smaller diameter bullet of the same sectional density and then compare both of them to something like a 45/70 405 grain bullet fired at 2000 fps, you should have enough paper to start a fire to roast a weiner at lunch. Eating that weiner will give you enough energy to hunt a little longer.

Here's Chuck Hawk's take on SD:
The Sectional Density of Rifle Bullets

By Chuck Hawks



Sectional density (SD) is the numerical result of a calculation that compares a bullet's weight to its diameter. To calculate a bullet's sectional density divide the bullet's weight (in pounds) by its diameter (in inches), squared. The higher the SD number the better the SD, and the heavier a bullet is in proportion to its diameter.

SD is important because it has a significant effect on penetration. Other things being equal (like impact velocity, bullet design and material, etc.) the higher the SD number, the better the bullet's penetration. In other words, a skinny bullet of a given weight tends to penetrate better than a fat bullet of the same weight, because it concentrates the same force on a smaller area of the target. For example, if other factors are equal, a 150 grain .270 bullet will penetrate better than a 150 grain .35 caliber bullet.

Penetration is important because the bullet must get well inside an animal to disrupt the functioning of its vital organs. A bullet that fails to penetrate the fur, skin, muscle, and bone necessary to reach the vital organs is very unlikely to bring an animal down.

SD stays the same for all bullets of the same weight in the same caliber--shape does not affect SD. This information is important to remember when comparing rifle bullets.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much for firsthand accountings.

Laffin'.................

Curious here, being a pretty inexperienced hunter- Say you shoot a a 150 Barnes into a bear, and a 150 grain Ballistic Tip into another identical bear with identical placement, both out of a 270. Now, both these bullets have the same sectional density, would the wound channels be identical?

Fred

You apparently don't have enough sense to follow the obvious links regarding my "first-hand accountings". Not that that would change your fine opinion of yourself, or that logic would alter your reasoning. Go get yourself a slap on the back of congratulations, the flyswatter you'll need for the back-slap is probably in the kitchen.

So what does affect SD? He already said, and some of us know, that diameter compared to length is what determines SD so what something happens, such as entering the hide on the animal, the length vs diameter ratio is changed so SD has to change when this happens. Common sense.

O, who is Chuck Hawks?

No.

NBT's are amongst the best ways,to arrange Critters leaving the area under their own power.

If you like to track,NBT's is your Huckleberry................

You'd have to quote Jeff-O,to top the quoting of Hawks..................

Damn! This makes twice in one week we agree 100%. What is the world coming to.

An end!

Actually, having shot one or two critters with a Barnes, and one or two with Ballistic Tips, I kinda knew the answer before I asked the question. I was getting at the point that sectional density is not a good predictor of terminal bullet performance.
Fred

Somehow, even with the pain meds I knew that. If you didn't already know you would not have asked the question.

Some of us here do have IQs in double digits.

Party Pooper!

Hardly.

Never not interesting to hear how Do-nothin's "think" and more humorously,why................

Sounds like you've seen me shoot...

double digits? im jealous........you give me something to strive for Scott

Oh come on, even Oldwoman could score an eleven.

Sounds like he needs a GreyBull Sendero

Hope that gets me turd like status!

damn your generous.........must be the drugs......

I'm screwed.

I don't need no stinkin drugs to be this goofy!

Just took my second Percocet. The empty holess don't hurts at alls but the tongue is swellin and I iss havin a hard thime talkins.

Hurts like it is still in the bear trap too.

Only in binary!

OUCH! Great one. We both might become eligible for Turdlike status with that one.

And with a minus sign in front.....

Loaded question! A 105MM Howitzer will work...from 6 miles!!

Once more, Let's rephrase the question for simplicity.
1) Let's assume you have chosen the optimum bullet for your caliber, it will expand reliably to 1.3 X the caliber, never fragment, and always travel in a straight line.
2) your shot placement is perfect, such that straight line penetration will transect the great vessels at the top of the heart.

Is there a lower energy level at which a rapid kill (ie penetration to the vessels) is still almost guaranteed?

The answer is "it depends on the sectional density of your perfectly placed, perfectly composed projectile" and on the angle and necessary penetration depth. With all else being equal(ie ignore arguments on differently constructed bullets, since that is not your question, and assume the hits being in exactly the same place), the penetration will be a function of primarily two variables.

A 500 grain 12 ga shotgun slug with a KE of 1000FTLB at 125 yds with a diameter of 0.73 is not an adequate elk round, even for behind the shoulder shots. 950FPS and SD of 0.13. E*SD=134

A 160 gr .277 at 600 yds would have a similar KE, about 1000 Ft. Lbs. But would have a velocity of 1620fps and an SD of 0.3 The penetration for a behind the shoulder shot should be adequate.. E*SD=306

With comparable projectiles and shot placement, the penetration will be a function of two variables, E and SD. In simplest terms, penetration potential (PP)= Kf(E)* Kf(SD) where the Ks are different constants. The energy is obviously a function of the square of the velocity, and decreases rapidly downrange as velocity slows.

There are rounds (especially flat point solids)that will reliably penetrate from the hip thru the great vessels and out the front. You will find that these rounds have a high E*SD out further than you can likely shoot accurately in a hunting situation. Legal requirements may preclude the use of solids, but the general idea is still correct.

So, the answer to your question, is "it's a matter of opinion". I would not choose to attempt even a behind the shoulder shot on a big elk if the weapon in hand produced an E*SD less than 225 at that particular distance..

Know your limits.

Well I have failed again!

No nasty IM messages this morning.

Guess I will never reach Turd Like Status.