Other than not wanting the criminal element to obtain guns from the United States, why should I care if Mexicans get guns here? Obviously they are breaking our "laws", but so what? A lot of those laws are, despite what some attorneys and scholars think, themselves obviously unconstitutional. That makes the laws invalid at best.

With the current porus situation of the border along with the cartels basically running things in large portions of our southern neighbor, we don't want bad guys having guns.

That said, if guns are good to have, and they are, according to most of us and according to our founders, then why are they not good for our fellow north americans to our south to have too? I don't advocate actively arming them which is contrary to their own laws, but there is something bad about them not having the freedom to go armed and protect themselves. Of course, their whole system of government is, IMO, their own business. That though, runs contrary to what a lot of people seemingly think, since they support the three wars we are currently involved in, in lands, far, far away from here or Mexico. But still, having arms is an American value, so why would we be so concerned about Mexicans being armed?

Again, with the caveat of the cartels.

The whole thing is about the elitism of gun control and ultimately, people control. You can call it communism, socialism, corporatism, fascism or whatever, but in the end, it is about the few controlling the many.

Thats sort of a funny post. I have a couple mining projects in Northern Sinaloa and while driving back to Phoenix and having to suffer through the northbound checks run by the Army and DEA, one of the Mexican engineers I had with me asked me "Why should I care if Americans get drugs?

We have yet to and never will address that side of the equation.

You should care, Cole, because the government wants you to care. They like a good follower. They'd much prefer you never consider the fact that the Mexican people would be better off if armed to the teeth and protected by a Second Amendment type of law. They want it to get bad enough that enough of we the people back them eliminating the 2A.

Look closely at the part of the quote that I didn't highlight and think about it... you're half way there my friend.

I've maintained for years that people who support government's "gun control" measures aren't thinking it through. It's not the gun that's the problem and even if it were, laws are not the solution. The only thing gained by the laws is in government's favor, their control is expanded. Their goal is achieved, victory is theirs. Next step, set their sights a little higher and progress foreword. Liberals and conservatives may support them and their step by step progress in different ways and for different reasons, but what does that matter from their perspective so long as the goals are achieved. It doesn't.



Because the government wants him to, that's why.
Same exact reason as above. No difference whatsoever. The government leads people by the nose and gains victory after victory. Small steps or large, what does it matter? It doesn't.

ps

It should be obvious that the government actually does NOT care if Amereicans get drugs and Mexicans get guns, they only pretend to because they want you to.

If the open border isn't proof the Gun Walker program certainly should be. Tons and tons of drugs walk across he border every year. And factions within our government see to it that guns walk the other direction. Everything pushes towards the goal. Elimination of the 2A. The "wars" are just posturing. They're pretending. And most of the nations people blindly follow along never thinking it through to obvious conclusion.

Project gunwalker has nothing to do with arming a populace for defence, only arming the cartel.

As far as supplying drugs to smokers, tokers and pokers, I won't give a chit about them using their choice as soon as no one gives a chit about me using my choice of gun on them when they violate my property or person. Until then the Authorities that restrict me with laws on said use take the responsibility to restrict them on theirs and the enforcement of the offense... i.e. laws...

Kent

If the Mexican citizenry became armed the place would perhaps change drastically. It would be rough at first, but odds are in the long run it would become a much better country to live in. and neighbor.

Very possibly GunWalker was exactly about that, given the numbers we are talking. I think most of us thought and still do mainly, that it was about discrediting the American Gun Owner and the 2nd Amendment. Specifically one would have thought the goal would be "Gun Show Loophole" legislation and/or another Assault Weapon Ban.

Many of us, including myself, have put the ATF as a whole down. We must remember though, that if it weren't for gutsy individual ATF personnel, we probably wouldn't know much about the agency itself doing this. So there are good agents who still believe in the American way of life and also truth, still within the agency. It would certainly be great if this agency survives this scandal, the good agents were to be put in charge of it, at the very top.

The Mexicans' problems aren't, at their very core, a lack of weaponry. The Mexicans don't have the collective will to free themselves and thus, they remain enslaved by one faction or another.

The 2nd Amendment in actuality, applies to Mexicans and every other human being on the face of the planet. This is because the 2nd Amendment and the Constitution itself, give, grant or bestow not one thing upon people. The Constitution simply acknowledges that people have an inherent right to defend themselves and that guns are a means to that end, therefore they cannot, lawfully, be restricted.

Everything else aside, that is a fantastic summation and one of the best I've ever read.

Well done, CY. Well done...

We don't care if law abiding Mexicans get guns.

But we SHOULD care when organized crime that regularly crosses the border into the US gets guns.

Rob Krentz.




Agent Terry.




Agent Zapata.

Not sure what you are saying, but gunwalker was about cartel operatives buying guns here and the supposed tracking, not Jaun from the village looking for defensive means or the Magnificent 7... possibly that's what you are saying.

Mexican culture has been repressive to the individual for over 200 years and from different entities... an uprising or even organized self protection will not happen there. Only individual actions that are self sacrificing at the same time.

Kent

Well, I haven't responded to this because I really have NO idea what Cole's getting at, either,......

Dittos on any possibility of a "Populist Revolution" making it much further then the nearest Tecate' warehouse,....and then staggering home with a bad hangover,.....

GTC

I was really only responding to Old Toot and Archer letting Cole's op stand away from the gunwalker incident.

Kent

"Gunwalker" is CLEARLY an attack,......on US.

That's plain to see.

GTC

Absolutely!!! and the agendas are many. The agents have agendas and some may be honorable, the Supervisors have agendas, the agency has agendas, Holder and Obama have agendas... Calderon has agendas. All using each other to forward their own ideals, multiple and fractured.

Kent

You're ignoring the disease and addressing a symptom.

"regularly crosses the border"

Try to stop them getting guns and you're playing the game government wants you to play. A game they know you'll never win.

Cure the disease.
Build a wall.
Symptoms eliminated.

"Build a wall."

Amen. But meanwhile, while the government refuses to secure the border or build a wall, it'd be DAM NICE if they'd stop arming the bad guys!!


krp & cross, I agree that gunwalker was intended as an attack on the US - specifically the 2nd Amendment. But it was an attack on the US that also didn't care about hundreds or thousands of corpses showing up south of the border. "Can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs", was the quote I think.

So I think it's also fully correct, or maybe even more correct, to also say that it was an attack on Mexico. That's how stupid and immoral they are, they didn't think that dead Mexican civilians, law enforcement and military mattered as long as they could use it to force more gun tracking laws down our throat.

Build 2 walls with 100 yds of no mans land between them, the northern most walled electrified. Then,,,,look for the tunnels and when found, gas them.

No gas.... bad schit.

Plenty of rattlers down that way, though... and snakes just LOVE burrows.

Gas to kill the rattlers, I guess?

Leave the rattlers alone... they have enough problems. Think about how convenient any tunnels might be for new den sites, though.... and havens for all manner of poisonous spiders....

Rattlesnakes have standards too....

The government realizes its constituents need and want drugs from mesico. They also realize their constituency wants cheap labor. The constiuency must have what they want.

Don't believe me? Take a little poll here at the fire and see whos for drug legalization.

Start a poll, Bear. Would be interesting.

A poll.

Legalization of hard drugs is a tough pill to swallow for 99%+.
Start with Mary Jane only.
Not decriminalized, complete legalization.
Withhold discussion for another thread (or just search archived threads).

Assume it's treated like booze with 21 age limit, contributing to delinquency of minors, DUI, etc.
Grow it, sell it, smoke it or stick it up your butt, whatever.

I'm curious what the consensus will be, too, Toot. I've no interest in pot but I'd plant hemp fields for fiber or fuel or whatever.

Not the hard stuff. Should have said just weed.

As an aside, there is no way possble the governments of Mexico and America are unaware of amount of pot being smuggled north across the border. With satellite capabilities I'm sure they know the whereabouts of every patch of pot in Mexico all the way down to 10' square. Mexico needs the money and America's govt wants the busts, gives their warriors something to do, keeps the courts busy, keeps the prisons full, and makes sure there's always headlines for the media.

I could see dingleBarry doing it.
I could see the Tea Party doing it.
Mexico will be pissed! but it's gonna happen and I'd say within 10 years.

GunWalker was a complete attack on the American people and their right to keep and bear arms at the very least. At worst it was simply arming the cartels for whatever reason. As I said in the OP and have said in numerous posts on this issue, with the number of arms involved in this fiasco, simple discredit of the 2nd Amendment seems a bit less likely, as just a few guns could do that, what with the media being owned by the people who have a vested interest in seeing us disarmed.

I made a clear distinction between Mexicans who would use the guns for legitimate purposes and those who would not.

This post is not all about GunWalker. It is about the whole issue of guns going across to Mexico and all the hand-wringing about it done by both governments and the MSM. The point I am making is that the guns going to Mexico, whether our government calls them legal or not, is not all a bad thing. While I tend to agree about 75% with krp about the psychology of Mexicans, they have had revolutions before. They just haven't followed up and kept the freedoms that were won.

What I am saying here is that as a country, we seem to accept meekly the MSM and Government line that guns in Mexico are BAD. I think a distinction needs to be made between guns in the hands of bad men and those in the hands of good, whether they be US citizens or Mexican ones.

I also think that we need to quit meekly accepting from the aforementioned sources and also the NRA that we need to do something about things that we have no real involvement in. It becomes clear that the main source of guns to the bad guys in Mexico is our own government. At least the main conduit from America to the Mexican bad guys. Even if dealers here and gunshows were a big source, it is not our problem. Our problem is the fact that our own government refuses to adequately maintain our border. The fact that a gun itself never did anybody harm seems lost here. I get tired of having to solve the world's problems at the expense of my rights. I can't get Sudafed without begging for it because some Meth-head might use it for making his dope. I can't buy a handgun across the state line without a bunch of rigamaroll because some dickweasel shot somebody one time. Anybody that thinks the average scumbag politician gives two cold shixts about whether we murder each other with guns or machetes or whatever, is mental. This is all about people control, and I for one do not accept people saying that I am responsible and my rights should be curtailed because somebody else did something wrong.

"the psychology of Mexicans, they have had revolutions before. They just haven't followed up and kept the freedoms that were won."

They've had repetitive bloodshed, chaos and VIOLENCE,....never a "Revolution" that worked.

It becomes clear that the main source of guns to the bad guys in Mexico is our own government.

Sorry,....but that is Horsechit.

GTC

How exactly is that "horsechit" Greg? Possibly an exaggeration in the overall source of guns, but not in the sense that our own government had to have been the main source as opposed to we, the average American people and the gun dealers which supply us. Please elaborate on your flame.

Possibly an exaggeration in the overall source of guns,

....precisely,.....you should head posts like this "painted with a broad brush".

GTC

Were I to guess I'd say most of Mexico's guns used by cartel are from places like China and Brazil. Probably a dozen other countries, at least, that would take the opportunity to send over a few shipping boxes full. Especially when paid in cash.

Wtf? Everybody knows the guns probably flow from China and elsewhere right into the Cartels. What can we do about that short of a blockade? This ain't about them, it's about us. We can effect our own government and our government is who is at fault here. You can figure that the GunWalker thing is like roaches. You turn the light on and see one and there are a hundred that you can't see.

IMO, you are picking at nits. We can bittch all we want about the Mexicans and their government, even the Cartels, but until we do something about our own government we are pisssing in the wind. I repeat, at the very best, this was a concerted effort by our own government to make gun owners look bad and with the end game being more gun control. It increasingly looks as if it were also or even more so, simply supplying the Cartels with weapons, for whatever reasons. Beyond that, lies only speculation.

Unless you think we are incapable of securing our southern border, which your past posts do not indicate, then the source of your irritation lies to your northeast and not so much, to your south. Please enlighten me as to where I am wrong.

Cole,...YOU HAVE completely MISSED THE POINTS that have been made (or we at least TRIED to make) , over and [bleep] OVER, for goddam years now about the PRIMARY source of firearms in Mexico, and at it's frontiers.

It is NOT the United States.

It's blacked out freighters in small bays and inlets,.....and the sources are the GLOBAL arms market.

"It becomes clear that the main source of guns to the bad guys in Mexico is our own government.".....THAT My friend is HORSECHIT

GTC

I find this thread confusing... perhaps I'm in a funk today or just stupid.

Kent

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-20048331-10391695.html

Some sorta' Angels Dancing on the Head of a Pin deal,.....I'm gonna' go back out in the shop now.

GTC

cross, I think he mis-stated what he meant.

I think he meant to say that between the US gun traffickers and the US government, the main source of guns is the US government.


Pretty much everybody except Obama and the libs agrees that the overall main source of guns is black market from central and south america (wonder how many trace back to Venezuala?), China, Africa, etc.

GREAT !

Let them keep this up,......it's the best damned thing we could have possibly asked for.

Thanks for posting it !

GTC

I'm going fishing for 4 days tomorrow.

Kent

Saying what one MEANS is a good way to avoid confusion, I'd suggest.

Like KRP,....I haven't been able to make any real sense out of WTF is the point.

Circular and somewhat confusing thread title, followed by circulat and VAGUE text,....Like going around one's azz to get to your elbow.

Then again,....maybe I'm just in a funk tot.

Later,

GTC

GTC

My point is that without doing something about our own government, bitching about Mexico or whomever is supplying them arms, is doing nothing. If they can come over with impunity, it doesn't matter where the arms come from.

The original intent of the thread was to illustrate that just like guns are not a crime problem, people are, guns are not the problem going to Mexico, governments that criminalize their legitimate ownership and penalize their righteous use in self-defense, are the problem. They are in essence, colluding with the criminals themselves. In the lesser sense, where the ATF and whoever ordered them to do so, are only trying to discredit us, the collusion is incidental, but in the greater sense, if they were supplying the Cartels with guns rather than scamming, the collusion is absolute and intentional.

It does matter that we don't say...

"It becomes clear that the main source of guns to the bad guys in Mexico is our own government."

That's the same as Janet, BO and crew saying 90% or guns come from the US... gives political currency to our enemies.

Kent

I think you got the gist of it. The thread isn't specifically about GunWalker, although that is part of it and it certainly isn't about the Chinese or whoever else is supplying weapons to the cartels. It's about we as a people accepting responsibility for stuff that is beyond our scope. Even if the guns were coming from here through the sources the ATF was trying to discredit, it's not the US gun owners fault. The Mexican government needs to do something about the criminals in their own country and our own government needs to secure the border. Our government needs to be pro-American and not trying to run fun and games on our own people and our beloved Constitution.

I've already covered that. I don't intend to do so again. Calhoun pretty much got it right. Between the legitimate US gun owner and the government, the government is the main source of guns to the Cartels.

When you come right down to it, the US government is the primary problem for the citizens of the USA.

Where's that stinking hope and change?!

Amen.

This thread has gone around it's azz,....to get to it's elbow

^

Let's just get this DERANGED , and counterproductive POS back up where it might be READ .

GTC

" I've already covered that. I don't intend to do so again. Calhoun pretty much got it right. Between the legitimate US gun owner and the government, the government is the main source of guns to the Cartels. "

"I don't intend to do so again."

Well, I'd suggest that you get ready for a serious chit rain for posting hat's either incoherant drivel,....or LIES.

"Between the legitimate US gun owner and the government, the government is the main source of guns to the Cartels."

WHAT in the HELL is THAT supposed to mean ?

Are you actually CLAIMING THAT as "Truth" ?

GTC

What exactly are you saying here? I didn't wish to resurrect this thread because at least one person, you, thinks that I was not clear in my meaning or grossly misinterpreted it. The only other answer is that you are purposely distorting things for whatever reason.

I don't know who the main source of guns for the cartels is. I should not have said it in that manner. The way I stated it above is pretty clear. Between the legitimate US gun owner and I'd include in that group gun dealers who have not been coerced by the US government, and the US government, meaning the ATF, the US Government is the larger source of guns to the Cartels. This is my opinion. With the GunWalker thing and also other possible ops that the government was running down there being talked about here daily, what other conclusion should I or anybody else draw? We here at the fire and I assumed you too, had already decided long ago that there was no significant gun trafficking going on as far as legitimate US gun owners and that it was all propaganda to discredit us. This was before GunWalker was even uncovered. Now that something like 2000 guns have gone across the border at the behest of the ATF, it seems to me that by that very act, the government is the main supplier when compared to us, the regular, legitimate US gun owner. Again, this would include legitimate gun dealers and also gunshows.

Now, I don't know how I can explain this in any greater depth or dissect it further. I also don't know what you consider a lie here. If you disagree, please state why for the audience if you feel the need. I can't fathom where anybody would disagree. I told you this in PM's and think it was all pretty evident right here. If I am not clear then evidently I have some communication problem that I cannot discern myself.

A Mexican friend of mine (same one who personally knew that rancher a bit ago who shot it out with the Cartels) who moved here to escape believes that most of the guns are coming from the US, hes seen the guns, and he knows the Mexican side of the Border very well.

I'd guess yer average Jose Bandido down there gets guns from wherever they can. But even for those guys it ain't like they can just walk into the local Cartel store to buy hardware. Even if some Cartel guys are bringing in foreign guns by the boatload, wouldn't necessarily mean Jose B. along the Border is gonna get one.

Local arrests of small-time gun smugglers here are regularly reported, on the scale of some guy paying two or three friends to go and buy AR's or some such. The point being that there's enough of a demand in Mexico that local miscreants can obviously turn a quick profit selling American guns at a considerable markup over retail.

Here's a look at the bridge at Roma, on the Rio Grande, just across from Cuidad Miguel Aleman. C. Miguel Aleman being where the head of the Cop investigating the jet ski murder was delivered (within easy walking distance of this bridge). That whole area across the river being under complete control of the Cartels.

So here it is; the Gateway to Hell, on a quiet Sunday morning just a couple of months ago. I watched people drive right on over from our side over to Mexico. Got cold, appraising stares from a couple of them, standing there with a camera the way I was. Also note the local just hanging out on the corner, watching.



If I was in the gun-running business, I expect I could have just driven right on over.

If there's a buck to be made, Americans are about like everybody else: somebody will do it. Which is exactly why the stuff that comes across that river is so well distributed that it is freely available to virtually every high school kid in America. We have a lot of guns in circulation, some of them are inevitably gonna go South.

OTOH, even if we stopped 'em all, would it make a whit of difference down there?

Naaah.

Birdwatcher

"evidently I have some communication problem that I cannot discern myself."

with THAT I would have to whole heartedly agree, and I doubt if you now even remember some of the chit you PMd me.

GTC

Largely stayed out of this one....

Amigos, es no bueno...

If I know CY, and I think I do, I'd hazard that his OP position had and has to do with Juan & Maria getting guns. "Why should I/we care if they get guns?".

Well, actually, we should. We should not only care, we should want the Juan & Maria types to get guns, just like we want the John & Mary types here in the U.S. to have, and have the right to, be able to do the same. Hell, at least maybe then Juan & Maria would have some chance against the cartelistas and corrupt Mexican police/army (wait... That's redundant...).

And, if I know crossfireoops, and I think I do, his position is that it damned sure ain't Juan & Maria that are getting guns, that "Gunwalker" aided and abetted, and that are carrying/using guns in Mexico and his AO. It is the cartelistas, it is the corrupt Mexican police/army (damn... Redundant again, sorry). We should damned sure not only not want them to get guns, but do everything possible to prevent it; instead of what is actually happening.

So, if I understand them both, both positions are right. We should not only care but also want for Juan & Maria to have guns, but not only care and not want, but do everything possible to keep, the cartels/MexPol-Army from getting guns.

The problem is that what is happening is the exact counter-opposite to what we should want, and it's being perpetrated by our own .gov.

Compound that with any clouding of the "gunwalker" situation with consideration of wanting/caring about Juan & Maria getting guns to at least have a chance, and VIOLA! You get this... You get the situation muddied, you get dilution of attention to the problem, you get significant disagreements where there'd otherwise be agreement, and the real issues get lost.

Now, either/both of you feel free to correct me if/where I'm wrong.

BTW - as far as the U.S. being the main source of guns to the cartels...

Absolute, unadulterated bullschit.

You show me where I can go pick up full-auto AKs, RPKs, etc., in the U.S., in quantity and regularly, and I'll kiss your ass.

Now, take a look at the nations to the South of Mexico where about a gazillion weapons of all stripes were essentially dumped during the Cold War, and at the completely unchecked shipping and air lanes between Mexico and both Central/South America and Asia, and the availability of serious firepower from those areas.... And tell me it's easier for FA/regulated firearms to come through distributors, dealers, shops, paperwork, modification, and transport from the U.S., vice simply being bartered and driven, shipped, flown, or walked in from those other locales.

As stated, ignoring that, and blaming US gives Hussein, Holder, Hitlery & Co political leverage against us, based and supported by falsehoods.

That schit, don't fly.

Crossfire, while I can appreciate some of the stuff you have gone through and are going through, both personally and generally you are totally in the wrong here.

I have explained over and over what I meant with this thread in general and also specifically pertaining to the part about where the guns come from. I have invited you over and over to express where your difference is with my position. Guns mainly from China or where ever else? Certainly. Probably the main source NOT our government. But between our government and the US people, the government certainly seems to be the offender here. You are also welcome to say how you think this could be made more clear.

As to PM's. Nothing I put in any of those PM's was something I am ashamed of or that is sensitive. They were just personal and reflected an attempt on my part, to keep this between us, man-to-man. You, if I understand one of your PM's or perhaps it was said here on one of your threads, have already mass-PM'ed your closest friends, my own PM's. Whether in part, edited or in their entirety, I have no idea. I will say yet again, I consider it highly unethical. When I get a PM, I keep it confidential. All that said, when I send somebody some such thing I realize there is always the possibility that others will not feel the same way. It is your property and you do with it (them) what you see fit. I am no longer in control of them. I personally have 8 PM's on this subject still in my Message Box here. This is three batches. There was another batch that I deleted because I didn't even want to open one of yours sent in response. So I deleted them before looking at it. Dishonor yourself by posting them, if that is what you wish. There is nothing in them that I said that matters. Nothing that threatened you or would creep anybody out. Just some anger and clarification. They were personal though. Do not take this as some sort of permission from me to post them. It isn't. You seem to think though that they are some sort of embarrassment or something that will prove your point somehow. They aren't.

On this subject...why post a callout thread and involve others in something that is between us? I asked you in one of the PM's unless I am mistaken, if you can't do something man to man? You brought this before the whole board when there was no need. This publicizes the issue that you were so concerned about in the first place. You also pulled this thread up again. It is three days old or so and never got much board-time in the first place, save for the issue that you and a couple of your friends took with my wording. All that bringing these things up does is further publicize what you think is an error. Of course, it was all cleared up very nearly when it was made and was not of great consequence anyway, other than what YOU made it.

There is a hypocrite and liar here and it is you, not me. I cannot at this point, believe that I actually defended you as long as I did. Despite all the things you have going on, a gentleman simply doesn't conduct himself this way. I tried repeatedly to settle this via PM without all this stupid drama. When it didn't settle it, I asked for your phone number thinking maybe a phone conversation could settle things. I even offered to PM you mine so you could call me.

In closing I will say this: My wife saw the threads and was astounded. She said as how maybe a year or more ago I was so worked up and moved by your threads about what was happening that I was ready to go down and stand by your side and help you out as it seemed you were nearly besieged by the cartels. It's just an example of how a person like me should pick their friends better and should have known better.

Indeed. I am in complete agreement and have always been. I made one mis-statement on this thread which I clarified. Average gun owners can't get those things and normal gun dealers don't deal in them. There are some at gunshows and through Class 3 dealers but they are so regulated that it would be stupid and not cost affective to arm cartel soldados with those. I am in complete sympathy with our border residents and also honest Mexicans across the border as to their plight in this crime infested area-hence my statement that you applauded early-on. I could go on but there is no need for further clarification.

Anybody that wants me to dissect this further for their own edification can feel free to PM me.

Exactly, Mil. weapons are available in all the countries of Latin/S. America. That from European countries too. The Mex. cartels have no problem buying arms,they have LOTS OF MONEY. They have no problems buying ingredients to make Meth. by the TON, to be used in their meth. factories. Not grams & ounces, that you see in the US.

"I cannot at this point, believe that I actually defended you as long as I did. Despite all the things you have going on, a gentleman simply doesn't conduct himself this way. I tried repeatedly to settle this via PM without all this stupid drama. When it didn't settle it, I asked for your phone number thinking maybe a phone conversation could settle things. I even offered to PM you mine so you could call me. "

So let's cancel the upcoming Golf and lunch thing.

GTC

""I cannot at this point, believe that I actually defended you as long as I did."

Jesus H.Christ on a [bleep]' POGO STICK.


I just bailed outta' my boots, after another 14 hour PRODUCTIVE day.....if you think I "Need" or "Want" protection, from you, or anybody else you are INDEED the little prick of a wanabe politician that all of your MOUTHY, and interminable confusing text has kinda' POINTED a bright light in your direction, anticipating confirmation.

This is GREAT,......not only has Janet from another planet been covering my six,......"Cole Younger" has been right there with it , or her, or WTF

Yo,...."Cole",......knowing that you've withdrawn your "Protection" is going resonate all through the Sonora Chihuahua tonight,....life here will never again seem as secure,....knowing you've jammed out.

"JAM TART",....that's a fine Canadian insult,....you wear it well.

GTC

Cross, you seem to be somehow fascinated with the PM's I sent you related to this. You took the liberty of sharing them with some of your friends and have also quoted liberally from them. You also have made several allusions to wanting to post them here for everybody to somehow judge. With your permission, I'll just post them myself, since you want to continue this. What do you say sport?

What exactly do you disagree with me on here. Be specific. You made reference to "ripping my head off and" the rest of it had to do with defecation. I believe you said you had not threatened me. That must mean that you think you will best me in some sort of debate. Let's go. Where is our disagreement here?

Aren't you going to get Oprah and Company up to speed first,....there well may be a buck in this,...all the drama,....

YOU are playing the Drama Queen here,...with this "PM" chit,.....I'd compare you to a Young Oldman1942,....at this point,....wit a fine soupcon of "Old Douche"

Go nuts,...and put up whatever cocks your pistol, bad azz.

GTC

You can't just say yes or no to the permission to post your PM's along with mine? I have three bunches pertaining to this issue and if you want both yours and mine posted, I will do so.

I am not the one keeping the ball rolling here. You are.

I consider you a coward. Speak plainly or shut up about it all. Where is your disagreement with what I said on this thread? I don't have all night. Drink some courage and post up. As to going nuts, you've already got that covered. You need to be checked for Dementia of some sort.

Post what your beef is exactly and specifically, with what I said. You said you would rip off my head and then something about defecation. I am here right now. I have a bit of time before bed. You evidently think you're going to best me in some sort of debate.

Give me permission and I'll post those three bunches of PM's. I don't have one that I deleted before I read.

State where we disagree and I will address it.

I tried dealing with you as a gentleman, but you wanted it on the boards. Here it is. Let's go.

Drink a big steaming hot cup of STFU,....and post WHATEVER JAZZES your goddam startle centers, you poor abused and misunderstood whatever the [bleep] it is you THINK you are.

I already SAID "Go Nuts"

crap,......this thing is going to get REAL interesting,.....but I'll only be able to "ATTACK" you once or twice a day,....seeing as how things are busy here,....

Yo, all,....."The return Of Hedda Hopper" coming up, pronto.

GTC

Gregg, classy as ever.

Brian.

lol How far into the bottle are you tonight? Are you incapable of normal conversation? Do I have your permission to post those PM's or not? Yes or no, not some bs. Once again, here is your chance to "rip my head off" in a debate. YOU are the bad asss here Cross. Here is your chance to prove how tough you are on the internet. You and me. I don't need any backup. I don't have all night.

The only reason why this whole "guns from the US getting into cartel hands" debate ever comes up, is because the media and the libs try and use it as political leverage against gun sales in our country. The cartel has a ton of cash and even if some of their weapons come from our country, they would get them anyway. This is what the anti-gun activists do. They throw the gun topic into an already highly flammable topic and get us to fight each other.

Outlaw, this is bit different. Somebody who I once called a friend, has called me out and called me vile names including a liar. Not just man to man, on a private message, but in public. I had no wish for this but it has been pushed by this person for several days now.

Let's roll. That is unless you are too inebriated. If so, just say so. Otherwise, let's speak plainly rather than in some drunken, idiotic, drivel. I tire of this and think it is very much you doing just about everything you have accused me of. Where are your guts Greg? Crack open another bottle and take a long pull. I'm sure if you look inside the whiskey, your courage will emerge.

"lol How far into the bottle are you tonight?"

Dodging and diverting,...yo , dil-weed you "Removed yourself from all the chit you posted,.....

now when I do that it's like GONE.

Maybe you have a "Special" filing method, that I'm to poor to afford.

POST the [bleep]' things, and quit actin'like Micheal Jackson waiting for Liz Taylor , in front of some Hollywood chithole.

I've gotta' be running by 0530,.....so will not be around to indulge your "Debate".....it's hardly "Fine Wine" more like "WHINE"

Poor misunderstood Cole,......life is so cruel and unforgiving.

GTC

lmao It is you who lack understanding. I don't give shixt what your personal schedule is tomorrow or what you are fantasizing that it is. Can you not say a simple yes or no? Everybody can then see how threatening and creepy my PM's to you were.

Once again, where are we in disagreement on what was said on this thread Greg? You call somebody a liar because they misstate something then clarify what they meant?

You are a miserable little cowardly game player.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Brian.

And YOU Se�or, are somebody RIGHT in the middle of having their mind [bleep] with......and if that's a "Game" one would have to conjecture that YOUR starting it was a 'Play those games, win those prizes."

"Everybody can then see how threatening and creepy my PM's to you were."

Do you have Loser1960 ghostwriting this chit for you ?

Put up WHATEVER you need to put up,....if you have it after removing yourself.

Can you scream like a B grade Horror Flick Heroine ?

Now would be the time.

Later,.....

GTC

Brian, I couldn't resist...

That's about what I thought Greg. You can't say something straight up, like a man. You have to reference games. I am not a game player. I'd translate your referencing whatever you're doing tomorrow to hanging out with Jefe Mojado and caging drinks in some saloon. Have a good time. You had your chance, first at discussion, then at honest debate. You weren't up to it. You had your chance to have the PM's posted for you. You would not provide a simple yes or no answer. Another failure. I'm sure after I head off to bed or to another forum, you'll reappear with a new supply of guts and attendant insults. Maybe even some veiled threats like you are good at. If there is anything or anybody creepy here, it is you.

Crossfireoops wrote: "POST the [bleep]' things"

Cole, i'd take that as a yes from Cross. If it was me that's how I would take it. Then again thats me.

Let me know if you see that as a yes too that way I can put a bag of popcorn in the microwave.

Kique

He posts here, doesn't he?

Brian.

Cole's "Closing Comments"