"But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy has ever made...was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit and spoke from God." - 2 Peter 1:20-21

Do you believe Scripture is perfect truth? Or do you believe it just contains some general principles and guidelines that can be adapted for every age, culture or situation? Do you believe Scripture is the written Word of God? Or do you believe that Scripture is the words of men that were shaped by prejudices concerning culture and different views all through the ages and should be adapted to the modern age? Do you believe scripture is our authority for faith and practice? Or do you believe each person should do what they feel is right?

Here is the bottom line on the truth of the scripture. It is either complete, perfect truth, applicable for all times, or it is all a lie. There is no in between. There is no such thing as partial truth or relative truth. The decision you make as to the nature of the scripture will shape everything else that you believe about God, about Jesus, about life, and about morality.

rfth.org

It's a book. Written long ago, and translated many times to fit whomever was translating.
Books were taken out of the Scripture and added as the victors saw fit.

Better stay away from the shellfish then and make sure not to poke fun at any old bald guys.

Amen

LOL.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...9/Re_Why_I_m_not_a_Christian#Post5570449

It is true.

Yes, it has been translated and re-written many times, with books included and excluded as translators chose, but the core is the same.

Read "God's Secretaries; The Making of the King James Bible" by Adam Nicholson to get a feel for how that version was created. Explains a lot!

Our generation has the benefit of more, and more accurate translations of the historical documents that have been included and those excluded than any other age, and the list keeps growing.

The message is the same and the results are the same.

Ed

Agreed, it is still The Great Light.

My Bible tells me that "All scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." And how this works in my life, when I get myself out of the way and place my reliance on God and His Word, confirms the absolute Truth of that passage, which by the way is 2nd Timothy 3:16.

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

"Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights." - Jonah 1:17

"And he went up from thence unto Bethel, and as he was going up that way, there came forth little children of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; Go up, thou bald head.
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood and tare forty and two children of them." - Second Kings 2:23-24

Ahem.

Neighbor,statements like this:

"Here is the bottom line on the truth of the scripture. It is either complete, perfect truth, applicable for all times, or it is all a lie. There is no in between."

are wrong.Not because they may turn folks off , but because you are in error.You are making claims for scripture that scripture doesn't make for itself.

The "complete,perfect truth " is Jesus Himself.Even Paul says we can't know all the truth in this life.

Those portions of the OT which are CLEARLY written as myth-albeit "myths of a different kind" [C.S. Lewis] contain TRUTH which may only be transmitted by analogy because of our limited ability to understand- are not true in the same sense the gospel accounts are true.

The bible is useful for believers.You make it an object of ridicule for non-believers with your blanket , erroneous statements.

The WORD is a Person that cannot be contained in a book.

Bootsfishing,

If the Scripture is Truth, why do the women in church have short hair?

If the Scripture is Truth, why do people in church teach God's Flood in Noah's time didn't cover all the high hills under the whole heaven?

If the Scripture is Truth, why do the men in church have long hair?

If the Scripture is Truth, why don't the men in church lift their hands when they pray?

If the Scripture is Truth, why do people in church pray long prayers?

If the Scripture is Truth, why do women in church dress immodestly?

If the Scripture is Truth, why do people in church teach the earth is millions or billions of years old?

If the Scripture is Truth, why do people in church teach Jesus changed His mind?

Not Ahem, but Amen.

That flawed people resist the Truth of scripture makes it no less the Truth or people no less flawed.

while scripture was divinely inspired the book is written by men, put together by men and further translated by men and men are fallible....

i do my best in living my life how i think i should and i dont beat my head against the wall about the interpretation of the entire book....

Preach it, brother!

I personally believe the Bible was written by men who believe they where inspired by God and since men wrote it and men interpreted it, then it is about 50/50 truth. If you believe 100% it is truth , then this is all that should matter to you and if you don't believe then lets just hope you are right when you go under.

This could be a very interesting thread especially when you throw this into the equation. Talk about making ones head spin.

King James Version
New International Version
Revised Standard Version
The Living Bible
New Living Translation
World English Bible
New King James Version
New International Readers Editions
American Standard Version
New American Standard Version
Young's Literal Translation
Plain English Bible
New English Bible
Amplified Bible
Basic English Bible
Translator's NT
20th Century Bible
Modern King James Version
The Message
New Jerusalem Bible
Hebrew Names Version of World English Bible
Contemporary English Version
English Version for the Death
Good News Version
New Century Version
New Revised Standard Version
J. B. Phillips New Testament, modern English

And there's a new one suppose to released (may be out by now) this month. Common English Bible

I just don't see any reason for discussing religion on this, or any other forum.
Those that believe, believe. Those that don't, don't.

No amount of acrimonious or mean spirited discourse is going to change anyone's mind, no matter which direction they lean.

What I believe is pretty much my own damn business. I don't need validation or approval from anyone but God.

It's been changed a lot by men with an agenda.

I'm a freethinker, a believer in spiritual self reliance. Therefore, I follow no manuscript written by dead guys over 2,000 years old. I follow no book written by dead or alive guys or gals of modern times either.

I do use books and manuscripts to stimulate the old thinking juices.

I'm not a follower. Certainly not in the last 30 years.

My last word on this concerning the OP.

just as with my views Derby, no one gives a [bleep] what you believe or don't believe. Or why.

Except for the gospel according to Schr�dinger.

And THAT is the truth.

You have said it much better than I.

Thanks, Gene!

Ed

Matthew 16:23

"Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."

If it's true that the scripture you speak of (Biblical) is the inerrant truth then there is a problem.

The problem is in the varying and conflicting stories inherent in the work.

Look no further than comparing the Biblical order of how things were supposed have happened in the beginning.

One need only look as far as Genesis Verses 1 and 2 to see how much differ (and in a major way) in the order that things were supposed to have happened on the earth.

That, one would think, would be a pretty important event and one where disagreement shouldn't be seen in an "error-free" manuscript.

Not only does that order differ within the Bible - it bears absolutely no resemblance to the proven fossil record.

None of these facts will bother the true believer in the slightest - of course.

matthew 10:12

"As you enter a house, wish it peace. If the house is worthy, let your peace come upon it; if not, let your peace return to you. Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words�go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet."

Who told you that?

Sycamore

For the Record, Brian. Biblical inerrancy as represented in the US press is very limited. This is from the USCCB website regarding a formal theological discussion between the Southern baptist Convention and Roman Catholics.

Inerrancy: The conviction that the Bible is "without error" in what it affirms. But there are different interpretations of what this actually means.

For Southern Baptists, inerrancy means that the original biblical text was composed precisely as God inspired it and intended it to be because of God's superintendence: not just the thought comes from God, but every word with every inflection, every verse and line, and every tense of the verb, every number of the noun, and every little particle are regarded as coming from God. Scripture is "God-breathed," and God does not breathe falsehood, so the text is faithful and true in all it affirms, including the miracle accounts, the attributed authors, and the historical narratives. The 1978 and 1982 Chicago statements on biblical inerrancy are representative of this doctrine.

For Roman Catholics, inerrancy is understood as a consequence of biblical inspiration; it has to do more with the truth of the Bible as a whole than with any theory of verbal inerrancy. Vatican II says that "the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching firmly, faithfully, and without error that truth which God wanted put into the sacred writings for the sake of our salvation" (Dei Verbum 11). What is important is the qualification of "that truth" with "for the sake of our salvation."

BMT

You are typical of the "elite intellectuals" who parrot the same nonsensical objections to the bible.Why are they nonsense?Because :

To become a "believer" , Christians ask you to accept the hardest "fact",first.Namely,

A Man lived , was killed , rose from the dead to resume His rule over the universe for eternity.

I'll take it for granted that - given the nature of this forum - you have seen critters die.Maybe you have watched humans die.You have seen the "light" go out of their eyes.You accept death as irreversable.

The Bible claims it is NOT.And you criticize it on the basis of a "flawed" chronology , not because of its' fantastic claim.

You really should try some original thinking instead of so much reading.If you are going to consign yourself to Hell , at least do it for a MANLY reason , not some wimpy ideas you picked up from somebody else.

WELL ?

hit and run trolling today I guess.

Not the one you addressed with the WELL question but I belive I can provide you an answer that will suit:

ICor 1: 21-23 (RSV)

21.For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
22.For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom,
23.but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles.

If he does respond , it will be to say that our posts are not worth a response.Typical secular liberal agenda-driven B.S.

It is impossible to have a rational discussion with BCB or DD.

Best you can hope for is to shut 'em up for awhile.

So, Gene, when are we going to have another gathering around a real campfire and discuss this world and the next?

Ed

Yep,James. The CENTRAL question for the ages and the "intellectuals" avoid it like the plague.

I'd sure enjoy that,Ed.I've got a little combination dove hunt and road trip that's gonna keep me gone for the next ten days.Maybe we can make something work , somewhere.

Good intentions aside... starting this thread in this section of the Campfire was a really bad idea. I'd like to suggest the OP consider moving it to the "other section".

The lost will strain themselves to avoid the light. As God said come by faith, to do otherwise is to lean on your own understanding. He will let your own mind, your meditation, your contemplation form your own snare or pitfall. Some see by their own eyes, others by the Light.

"I'd like to suggest the OP consider moving it to the "other section"."

You should know that THAT won't work.It's SECRET , you see.

I have noticed most people that like to crow about how intelligent they are are usually the opposite, or at best, very insecure about it-makes me think Brian has a chip on his shoulder about his smarts, or lack of same?
I have also noticed that BC likes to ridicule people of faith and gloat when something bad happens happen to someone, especially a Christian.
Kind of a pity, really, as he seems like he could otherwise be a decent human being.

If only people could practice this line of thinking on politics...

If that were true, one would assume the same would go for you?

So rattler, how do you reconcile the fact that your standard of how a good life should be lived is probably very different from God's standard? When you stand before him at the judgement, which person's standard will be the most relevant? For these reasons alone it would seem that understanding the interpretation of the book is most critical, no?

I don't know that I have ever made any claims to being more intelligent than the average guy around here. If I ever did - I certainly shouldn't have. But I must ask - why is it "parroting" when I give the reasons for my non-belief - but it's not parroting - when 2000 year old stories are brought out as examples - time and again - to debate scientific consensus?

I find it interesting that people who believe a 2000 year old collection of stories would then take me to task for not having "Manly" thoughts of my own (I'm still confused by that choice of words) and then go on to say that I don't have thoughts of my own. Belief in the Bible is certainly not an "original" thought - at least to my way of thinking.

I don't know that I have ever ridiculed anyone for having beliefs that differ from my own - if I did, I shouldn't have. I do know very well that my own beliefs have been ridiculed by Biblical believers time and time again on this forum - but that's OK - I've learned to accept that as being one of the more typical responses from Christians.

I know for a fact, that no one on this forum could ever prove one example of where I "gloated" about something bad happening to anyone on this list - Christian or otherwise.I'm not that kind of person. The record of my writings on this forum are all preserved for anyone who would like to try and dispute this.

On this forum, I did once ponder the question - that if one prayed for a tornado to change course when it was moving towards a person's house - if said person could then be blamed if God heard the prayer and directed the storm into the path of his neighbors house. But, as I don't believe in God, or prayer, it was merely pondering the thought process behind the belief.

For those who find strength and comfort in their religious beliefs - good for you. I am happy for you.

Personally though - I'm not wired that way.

But I do believe Mark Twain had it right when he once wrote:

"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also. I would not interfere with any one's religion, either to strengthen it or to weaken it. I am not able to believe one's religion can affect his hereafter one way or the other, no matter what that religion may be. But it may easily be a great comfort to him in this life--hence it is a valuable possession to him."

- Mark Twain, a Biography

dont preach that anyone should live their life like me.....have made the choice i figure is right and its what im betting on.....

what i have noticed is most those wrapped up in the fine print seem to miss the bigger picture.....if every "t" needs crossed and every "i" dotted im pretty well [bleep]....i just try and do right by ppl, have a chat with the guy upstairs now and then and keep it simple....if that aint good enough for him so be it but its what im going with....

The sad part is you believe that statement.

This is just the most recent version:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5569608/1

Ridicule is what comes across.

What you may or may not intend is irrelevant.

BMT

I find it interesting that an "infallible" church - can now be absolved totally- for what it taught for millennia - that the earth was the center of the universe and that the sun revolved around the earth..

If it was ever wrong - even once - then that church is not infallible.

Correct?

Ridiculing again?

I'd say "Reasoning".

The point of the Bible if it has one at all, is that man is incapable of crossing Ts and dotting Is the way that God demands.

The essence of true Christianity is the grace of God in His offering of Christ. His Son was fully man and fully God, and was offered for the sins of His people.

Of course to get there you have to believe that you're incapable of earning God's favor through work of your own.

Whatever you believe concerning the nature of Scripture is a moot point if you believe in the sufficiency of Christ and His work.

Of course the opposite is true, too. You can believe all the "right" things about Scriptures and still miss your own sinfulness and your resulting need of a Savior. There are just as many pharisees running around these days as there were in NT times...

Remember the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism.

Ironically it was the great Catholic Augustine whose two quotes I think bookend a healthy ecclesiology (doctrine of the church):

First, "The Church may be a whore, but she is still my mother," and second, "One cannot have God as his Father if he does not have the Church as his mother".

Those two quotes, IMHO, give a balanced perspective on the fact that the Church (Universal; not just the RC but the whole thing) is on the one hand an institution made up of human beings and on the other it is one instituted by Christ and supported by the work of the Holy Spirit.

BC,

Who said anything about an "infallible" church?

Brian: You lie to yourself.

You hurt the feelings of people her INTENTIONALLY.

There is no good reason for it.

Deal with it.

If you would like to reason, Look into Eugeneics (the "applied science or the bio-social movement which advocates the use of practices aimed at improving the genetic composition of a population").

Just stop showing up here FOR THE PURPOSE OF HURTING PEOPLE.

BMT

Brian , let me try from THIS angle:

If I were to evaluate a belief system , I would try and find its' "core" ;that one thing that more than anything else separates it from all similar or competing belief systems.

To use Islam as an example , I could focus on the fantastic claim that martyrs for the faith get 72 virgins upon their entry into heaven.That would be a dis-service to my own intellect and to the "faith".

Instead,honesty would compel me to consider the likelihood that God brought forth a prophet in the 6th century that [more or less] plagiarized the writings of an ancient religion,Judaism and wrote a book ,by himself, that was in and of itself "holy".THAT is the "core" of Islam as I see it.That would be my starting point in any debate.

Not 72 virgins.

The crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is the "core" of the Christian belief system.BCR quoted a passage of scripture earlier that bears that out.That "core" cannot be dis-proven using science , since - by its' nature - it would happen only one time.

That "core" must be accepted , or rejected ,on other than scientific grounds.

Until it is accepted,no other question matters.

Once it is accepted , no other question matters.

Ridiculing AND deflecting. The subject here is whether Scripture is infallible, not the Church. The Church is made up of people hence, by its' nature, is fallible.

The WORD is infallible, the Scriptures teach us the truth of God's love and purpose for us.

The Scriptures can be taken from context and proven to contradict itself, just as any doctorine can, just as we can take each others' words and twist them around.

How each of us lives is our responsiblity, not anothers'. We Christians are charged with spreading the message, but are not held accountable for anothers behavior, for each and every one of us is given that same "free will" to choose to have God in our lives or not.

It is not my responsibility to make sure that anyone accepts God, just that they have been exposed to HIS message, either through testifying or through my walk.
It is also not my reponsibility to make another have the same relationship with HIM as I do. Again, it comes down to free will.
I am also admonished to not judge another. I can use my judgement with whom and where I associate with non-believers, but not hold their non-belief against them for that is NOT my place to do so.

I find it interesting that non-believers feel it necessary to ridicule anothers' beliefs, using any and all "empirical thinking" to prove their point that there is no basis for said belief.

We Christians should not fall into that same behavior, for God may not be finished with them, much less us.

Just my $0.02

Ed

John 5:39 "You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me."

Christians, Non-Christians, and self proclaimed free thinking intellectuals will always debate and argue over the validity or interpretations of Scripture. This has been going on since the very first words were ever placed on papyrus, stone, or the hearts of men. What does it mean? Is it truth? Is it myth? What is it!?

Jesus addressed that when He came across two religious scholars that were doing just that! Exactly what many do on here, around campfires, in Churches, or at Universities. I think what He did here was brilliant and is widely supported throughout the rest of the Scripture. He basically said, "Knock it off! You're missing the WHOLE point! It's ALL about ME!"

The ENTIRETY of Scripture is about having a relationship with our God, Jesus. That's it! No more, no less!

One poster asked the question, (I'm paraphrasing here) "If that's what you believe then how do you think your account before Him is going to go?" I would propose that it doesn't matter because it all comes down to one simple question.

Matthew 7:21 �Not everyone who says to me, �Lord, Lord,� will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, �Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?� 23 Then I will tell them plainly, �I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!�

Do you KNOW Him?

John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

The word "know" in each of these passages comes from the same word used in other places throughout the Bible in the context of a man "knowing" a woman, or his wife. It's an intimate almost carnal knowledge of another being.

This is why Jesus was frustrated with people trying to "interpret" Scripture. They were missing the whole point. HIM!

Now, for some curveballs

Your relationship with Him will be very different than my relationship with Him.

1 Corinthians 10:23-33

23 �I have the right to do anything,� you say�but not everything is beneficial. �I have the right to do anything��but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.

25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, �The earth is the Lord�s, and everything in it.�[f]

27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, �This has been offered in sacrifice,� then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. 29 I am referring to the other person�s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another�s conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God� 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved."

The Bible tells us that for Christians our conscience is guided by the Holy Spirit. What the Holy Spirit convicts one man of, He may not convict another of the same thing, but instead actually let him be at peace. So, essentially what may not be ok for one person (eating red meat for example) MIGHT be ok for you!

Don't take me wrong, the Holy Spirit will never guide us outside of the principles laid out in the written Word.

My point is, two fold. Non-believers and Christians alike struggle with the Bible because in their minds it is supposed to be the LAW. The way believers and followers are supposed to behave. While this is true, it's also misleading.

Romans 8:1-11

1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God�s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

Simply, we don't live according to the LAW anymore, because Jesus freed us from it by paying the toll for breaking it. Death in our place. Now, we live by following the Holy Spirit, who speaks to our conscience.

Ok, that should address the Biblical debates on whether the Bible is truth or not. It's irrelevant because it's ALL about Jesus who (John 14:6) just happens to BE the very element of Truth. Follow Him and you won't be off of the truth.

Next post will address translations, inspiration, and the fallibility of man.

That's a spurious claim at best. It's more likely a ludicrous claim.

Show me excerpts of my writings where I have gone out of my way to hurt people. Show me just a handful of examples - if you can find any.

I have beliefs - I share them.

The purpose of my postings is to provoke debate. I enjoy it.

From this I learn.

To surmise that my intent is to hurt people when I debate matters of faith would presuppose that those who debate me are out to hurt me - a claim that would - of course - be as ridiculous and unfounded as your own present claim is.

I hope the truth of this post doesn't hurt your feelings.

that is basically my point....i am not and can not get wrapped up in the intricacies of what every phrase in the book means, when you do you often miss the forest because of the trees....

you hit basically what i believe....there is nothing wrong with studying the Bible, just dont loose sight of the bigger picture while doing so....

stated earlier that i believe the book was written by man, also believe it was written in a way individuals from centuries ago could understand....because of my belief in this it isnt hard to make the book match up with science....read Genisis and change the meaning of the word "day" and all the sudden you have a story that aint far from current scientific beliefs are with some literary license....

thats my beliefs anyway.....when broken down the rules in science are just Gods rules that we have discovered....because of this and my belief that the bible isnt gods literal word i dont read anything there that rules out evolution....i just view that there was someone behind the scenes guiding it.....

I just did.

You refuse to believe it.

This is normal. If you placed any value upon our beliefs, you would realize this.

As you place no value upon religion -- and generally despise it -- you cannot fathom that it is hurtful.

BMT

Translating anything is not easy. It's actually darn near impossible. Anybody that has studied another language can think of things that just do not translate into English very well. If you go literal you miss the nuances therein. If you go for the nuances then you miss the particulars.

For example, take the word "word". In the English language I can give you my spoken word, as in an oath. Or I can give you my written word as in these insanely long posts of mine. I can also be talking about a specific word like "dog" or "cat".

In Greek you actually have different words for the word "word". LOL Say THAT five times fast! "Logos" refers to written words like the Bible. Whereas "Rhema" refers to spoken word.

Another example is the word "Love". In English you can fall in love with a woman, which is very different than the fact that you love your brother, which is also different than your love of ice cold beer. But in Greek, there are different words for each of these. "Eros" being the root of erotic is exactly what you think it is (heLLOOOO wifey!) Where "Phileo" is the kind of love you'd have for the other guys sitting around your campfire. Think Philadelphia the "City of Brotherly Love".

So, the reason we have SO many different translations of the Bible is because there are SO many different ways to translate one language into another. There are very literal translations that go almost word for word with original codex like the New American Standard Version. They are great for certain types of study but they DO tend to miss out on some of the cultural nuances of the ancient cultures. So, they have less literal translations like the New International Version which capture a bit better those cultural nuances but miss out on the literal meanings of specific words.

Even English has some of this. I can say the phrase "That's stupid!" And depending on who I'm talking to, my relationship with them, and what subculture I'm a part of, it can mean very different things. It can mean that one is lacking in intelligence or it can mean something is funny. Even the word "funny" can mean different things for us.

For a true Bible scholar, getting your hands on as many English versions as you can will really paint a beautiful overall tapestry of what the originals were saying. The more we learn about the ancients the better our understanding of their languages and nuances therin get and this too leads to newer translations. However, when you DO get them all together they are indeed saying the very same things, just differently.

This brings up a problem though. People suck. You know this, I know this, we all know this and guess what!? You are people! One of the big problems people run into when using Scripture is that we have a tendency to take one verse, or one version and run with that portion to make a complete doctrine or way of life from. This very practice is what gives the Church it's many denominations. It's also what makes Christians our own worst enemies as we engage in these massive debates online, in public, or at our Churches. We denigrate others for their understanding and go out of our ways to establish ourselves as having the TRUE understanding of the Bible or that passage. *See previous post!*

The best way to prevent that is to take the Bible as a WHOLE. Instead of nickpicking your way through it.

For example, there are two verses in Proverbs that are back to back. The first one tells us NOT to correct a fool in his folly, but the next one tells us that we SHOULD correct a fool in his folly? Did the Bible just contradict itself? Yes, and no! If you take just a portion then it would seem that it does. But if you take the whole, we learn in Ecclesiastes that there is a time for everything and everything has its time. There is a time and place to correct the fool, and there is also a time and place when you're just wasting your time so don't bother. When taken as a whole, the Bible NEVER contradicts itself. I would add that if you take all the English versions and read them all, you'll find that to be the case even among versions.

The Holy Spirit lead over 40 different authors to put to paper 66 different books over a span of 4000 years, and they never contradict themselves. Pretty impressive!

I hope this addresses some of the things put forward in this thread.

If you follow a Church, you'll embarrass yourself and the Church. If you follow the Scripture, you'll embarrass yourself and the Church. If you follow Jesus, don't worry, He's got ya covered for when you embarrass yourself!

People suck, and we're all people. Jesus on the other hand is Perfect. Follow Him, get to KNOW Him, and you'll be just fine. No matter what my judgmental attitude throws at ya!

HAJ,

Thank you for taking the time to post that. (Insert sincerity icon here)

I am constantly amazed at the depth of knowledge here at the 'fire and am constantly pleased at how many here are also are believers.

Thank you again,

Ed

FWIW You need not be concerned you will hurt my "feelings".I lost 'em in a divorce.

Ditto hommie! Ditto!

It seems I learn something new everyday on here. It's why I like it so much!

Catholic means universal. The Roman Church IS the universal Church.

That ain't all you lost!

This says it all. That is the core, Jesus's crucifiction and resurrection plus his divinity.

DD, dude go back over your Religious history amigo. The Universal aka Catholic (NOT the Roman Catholic) Church started splitting long before the Roman Catholic Church decided to make that claim.

Just because you call yourself universal or Catholic doesn't make it so.

This is why I myself a very devote Protestant very truly considers Steve Timm, a very devote Catholic, my Christian brother.

I do have some very deep and serious disagreements with the Catholic doctrine, but as per my initial post in this thread, it's ALL about a relationship on an intimate level with Jesus. I truly believe Steve has that, as do many Catholics, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Baptists, etc etc....

You will know them by their fruit....

Or, as C.S. Lewis put it...

"He's either a Liar, a Lunatic, or Lord"

Exactly.
And I choose to call Him "Lord".

AMEN.

Actually - you didn't produce a single example of my going out of my way to hurt someone's feelings. I was once a Christian - for many decades - I am now a Scientific Pantheist.

Your claim I despise religion - is dead wrong.

I have a religion. It's called Scientific Pantheism - in fact - it is so important to me - that I feature a link to it on the bottom of every post I write.

Just because it is not YOUR religion - doesn't mean it isn't centrally important to me.

If I were a tender-hearted sort - I could claim (as you seem to) that everyone who rejects my own faith is intentionally trying to be hurtful to me by rejecting what I believe. But - of course that would be hog-wash.

Gave you the link, try it in Black and White.



There is NO GOOD REASON to post such an item, except hurtful provocation.

How about this: I post of picture of your daughter in a compromising position, and claim that you are raping her?

That's what you did here.

Take a subject known to be dear to someone (Religion) and post something absurd about it.

BMT

What I find so difficult to understand is how anyone could not believe in God.

With the many requests for prayer as has been submitted on this forum alone, and the miracles that occured because of these prayers, it just doesn't make sense to me that someone, anyone, does not believe in God, regardless of their intellectual leval.

Christian people have seen miracles happen here, and also in their on personnal lives, and these miracles could have only come from the hand of God. As far as the scriptures being true or not, I believe they are completely true, from the first word in Genesis to the last word in Revelation. It has to be, or else the Scriptures as we know them would not have lasted as long as they have.

I don't quote scripture very much, but I think there is one verse that is appropriate for this thread, and for some of the others of this nature which have shown their heads in recent months.

This passage is from somewhere in Psalms and goes like this:

"In his heart, the fool says, 'there is no God.'"

1234567,

I would propose that for some, they lack the ability to believe in Him.

Romans tells us that we are "without excuse" in not seeing the works of God. But it goes on to say that those that chose not to see, He has "given over to a base mind."

Other parts of the Bible refer to this process as the "hardening of the heart."

When this takes place, they simply cannot believe as their mind and heart get in the way.

It's sad, but it happens, and the only one that can break through that or heal that is Jesus Himself.

I would also propose that He never gives up on that either. The problem is the more they reject Him the harder it is (for THEM) to accept Him. It gets to a point where they just lack the ability.

You can't lose anything if it was REALLY yours.That's the true test of ownership.By that measure , we own not much.

"The whole world is the garment of the Lord.Reject it and receive it back as a gift from God." [upanishad]

There is alot to learn by provoking.....

Exodus 23:21
Beware of him, and obey his voice, PROVOKE him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name [is] in him.

Numbers 14:11
And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people PROVOKE me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

Deuteronomy 4:25
When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt [yourselves], and make a graven image, [or] the likeness of any [thing], and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to PROVOKE him to anger:

Deuteronomy 9:18
And I fell down before the LORD, as at the first, forty days and forty nights: I did neither eat bread, nor drink water, because of all your sins which ye sinned, in doing wickedly in the sight of the LORD, to PROVOKE him to anger.

Deuteronomy 31:20
For when I shall have brought them into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and PROVOKE me, and break my covenant.

Deuteronomy 31:29
For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt [yourselves], and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to PROVOKE him to anger through the work of your hands.

Deuteronomy 32:21
They have moved me to jealousy with [that which is] not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with [those which are] not a people; I will PROVOKE them to anger with a foolish nation.

1 Kings 14:9
But hast done evil above all that were before thee: for thou hast gone and made thee other gods, and molten images, to PROVOKE me to anger, and hast cast me behind thy back:

1 Kings 16:2
Forasmuch as I exalted thee out of the dust, and made thee prince over my people Israel; and thou hast walked in the way of Jeroboam, and hast made my people Israel to sin, to PROVOKE me to anger with their sins;

1 Kings 16:26
For he walked in all the way of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, and in his sin wherewith he made Israel to sin, to PROVOKE the LORD God of Israel to anger with their vanities.

1 Kings 16:33
And Ahab made a grove; and Ahab did more to PROVOKE the LORD God of Israel to anger than all the kings of Israel that were before him.

2 Kings 17:11
And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as [did] the heathen whom the LORD carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to PROVOKE the LORD to anger:

2 Kings 17:17
And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to PROVOKE him to anger.

2 Kings 21:6
And he made his son pass through the fire, and observed times, and used enchantments, and dealt with familiar spirits and wizards: he wrought much wickedness in the sight of the LORD, to PROVOKE [him] to anger.

2 Kings 22:17
Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might PROVOKE me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.

2 Kings 23:19
And all the houses also of the high places that [were] in the cities of Samaria, which the kings of Israel had made to PROVOKE [the LORD] to anger, Josiah took away, and did to them according to all the acts that he had done in Bethel.

2 Chronicles 33:6
And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to PROVOKE him to anger.

2 Chronicles 34:25
Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might PROVOKE me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be poured out upon this place, and shall not be quenched.

Job 12:6
The tabernacles of robbers prosper, and they that PROVOKE God are secure; into whose hand God bringeth [abundantly].

Psalms 78:40
How oft did they PROVOKE him in the wilderness, [and] grieve him in the desert!

Isaiah 3:8
For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen: because their tongue and their doings [are] against the LORD, to PROVOKE the eyes of his glory.

Jeremiah 7:18
The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead [their] dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may PROVOKE me to anger.

Jeremiah 7:19
Do they PROVOKE me to anger? saith the LORD: [do they] not [provoke] themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

Jeremiah 11:17
For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to PROVOKE me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

Jeremiah 25:6
And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and PROVOKE me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.

Jeremiah 25:7
Yet ye have not hearkened unto me, saith the LORD; that ye might PROVOKE me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt.

Jeremiah 32:29
And the Chaldeans, that fight against this city, shall come and set fire on this city, and burn it with the houses, upon whose roofs they have offered incense unto Baal, and poured out drink offerings unto other gods, to PROVOKE me to anger.

Jeremiah 32:32
Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to PROVOKE me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Jeremiah 44:3
Because of their wickedness which they have committed to PROVOKE me to anger, in that they went to burn incense, [and] to serve other gods, whom they knew not, [neither] they, ye, nor your fathers.

Jeremiah 44:8
In that ye PROVOKE me unto wrath with the works of your hands, burning incense unto other gods in the land of Egypt, whither ye be gone to dwell, that ye might cut yourselves off, and that ye might be a curse and a reproach among all the nations of the earth?

Ezekiel 8:17
Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen [this], O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have returned to PROVOKE me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose.

Ezekiel 16:26
Thou hast also committed fornication with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy whoredoms, to PROVOKE me to anger.

Luke 11:53
And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge [him] vehemently, and to PROVOKE him to speak of many things:

Romans 10:19
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will PROVOKE you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Romans 11:11
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to PROVOKE them to jealousy.

Romans 11:14
If by any means I may PROVOKE to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

1 Corinthians 10:22
Do we PROVOKE the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

Ephesians 6:4
And, ye fathers, PROVOKE not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Colossians 3:21
Fathers, PROVOKE not your children [to anger], lest they be discouraged.

Hebrews 3:16
For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider one another to PROVOKE unto love and to good works:

Judith 8:14
For ye cannot find the depth of the heart of man, neither can ye perceive the things that he thinketh: then how can ye search out God, that hath made all these things, and know his mind, or comprehend his purpose? Nay, my brethren, PROVOKE not the Lord our God to anger.

Judith 11:11
And now, that my lord be not defeated and frustrate of his purpose, even death is now fallen upon them, and their sin hath overtaken them, wherewith they will PROVOKE their God to anger whensoever they shall do that which is not fit to be done:

Ecclesiasticus 4:2
Make not an hungry soul sorrowful; neither PROVOKE a man in his distress.

1 Maccabees 6:34
And to the end they might PROVOKE the elephants to fight, they shewed them the blood of grapes and mulberries.

1 Maccabees 15:40
So Cendebeus came to Jamnia and began to PROVOKE the people and to invade Judea, and to take the people prisoners, and slay them.

I think that post just PROVOKED me to go to bed now

Sorry, it was my first attempt at a filibuster

Condensed it for you......

Yes. Prior to the 1990's, there was no extra-biblical evidence for the existence of Israel's King David. Then, it was found.

Up until the Reformation the only Christian game in town was the Roman Church period. There was no other Christian Church. When a Christian sect appeared they were destroyed or made to see the light. With the Reformation the Roman Church begin to call itself the Roman Catholic Church to distinguish itself from the "protestant".

While the Church (Roman Catholic Church) has made overtures to getting along with the Protestant denominations and even with the Orthodox Christian Churches make no mistake about it the Roman Catholic Church still considers itself the universal Church.

It's nice and good that individual members of different denominations can get along with each other at least in this country. There was a time though when that wasn't the case and it wasn't all that long ago, back when I was a kid.

No good reason?

How about exposing the hypocrisy of a church that claims - to this day - to be infallible - while still promoting beliefs that caused the excommunication, the imprisonment, the torture and the even the deaths of many people who chose to speak out against the hypocrisy. And today - it still continues.

If that makes you sad - tough luck - suck it up - the truth hurts - no doubt.

Damn, it's almost like you guys are arguing religion or sumptin' silly like that!

Yup, and for a very good reason. The RCC was all powerful and very jealous of that power. To get involved, or even be accused of being involved, with any other religion was a fast track to the torture chambers and stake.

The inquisition didn't end with the reformation, either. The last person to be executed by them was a Spanish school teacher who was garrotted in the mid 1800's for teaching something they didn't agree with.

Thank you for proving my point.

BMT

I believe there is a God.

I believe Jesus was God's son who came to earth to die for my sins.

I believe he arose on the 3rd day.

After that I'm not so sure of much else in the Bible, nor do I believe it is really important. In my 53 years I've seen WAY too many preachers and religous leaders twist the Bible to suit themselves to not believe others have not been doing it for centuries.

10-4. The lost are lost. Let the dead bury the dead.

BC, you may have read the Bible and gone to church, but I sincerely doubt you were ever a Christian.

Well God bless you, (and hug a jack too)

So you don't adhere to their truth claims concerning the Historical faith, but yet you do adhere to their claims to represent the whole of the tradition?

Pardon me, but that seems intellectually lazy on the face of it, downright oxymoronic when I look closely at that assertion coming from you.

Just because a group of people claim to be the universal Church doesn't make it so any more than my claim to be Richard Nixon makes it so.

The Eastern Orthodox Church is not part of the Roman Catholic Chuch, and yet they are (at least according to Reformed Presybyterian teaching) part of the Universal Church, as are the many branches of Protestantism and... gulp... even the anabaptists. Just because the Bishop of Rome claims something to be true does not make it so.

Huh?

What about Eastern Orthodoxy, from which the Bishop of Rome split?

The Roman Church has thought itself to have a corner on the grace of God in Christ for nearly a thousand years, but it never has.

Thanks be to God.

Where did you get that?

BMT

Were not those baptized in other Christian sects said to be going to eternal damnation?

I understand this is said to have changed and broadened under Vatican II, but was that not a teaching of the exclusivity of the Roman Catholic Chuch since around the time of the Schism?

Gettin' on the slippery slope toward criticizing the RC church.That's frowned on here.

We can make fun of Baptists if you want to .Nobody minds that .

Not even us Baptists.

Ok cool I got a good one for you:

Who don't the Jews recognize? Jesus

Who don't the Protestants recognize? The Pope

Who don't the Baptists recognize? Each other in a liquor store!

...or...

Why don't Baptists believe in having sex standing up?

Because it may lead to dancing!

Anybody got any good Presbyterian jokes? I'd love to hear 'em...

NO

Such has never been the teaching of Catholicism.

Canon 1258 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law provides:

"It is illicit for the faithful to assist at or participate in any way in non-Catholic religious functions.
For a serious reason requiring, in case of doubt, the Bishop's approval, passive or merely material presence at non-Catholic funerals, weddings and similar occasions because of holding a civil office or as a courtesy can be tolerated, provided there is no danger of perversion or scandal."

This was deleted with the 1983 Cannon.

Still, it is a INTERNAL rule for Catholics, and had no effect on others.

There is no "damnantion" for 1,000 years.

There is 1700 years of ecumenical councils seeking unity, however. Begins with Nicea in 325.

BMT

Why? If you don't mind, please elaborate.

Maybe I'm missing the point here. After all, I'm not too bright.

So many folks simply love to degrade God, simply because they want to be cute and smart.

Then, I look at Karen. My wife of 47 years was literally at Death's Door five days ago. She suffered a horrible, debilitating stroke; I saw it and it was a crushing blow. I've seen death, I've caused death to happen ... Karen was well on her way to death.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Then our Catholic friends, literally hundreds of them, and I got down upon our knees and prayed for Karen. "Lord, we ask you to spare her life, we are humble in asking for her to survive ... and maybe even thrive."

Dang, over the next three days I got almost no sleep and was by her hospital bed constantly. I almost wore out my carnelian agate Rosary.

Three days ago, it was obvious that she would probably survive. She could only identify about 20% of figures on a recognition test (bird, barn, boy, etc), but she was alive. Hey, in whatever condition, I'll take it!!!!

The next day, she scored 90% on a similar test.

She was released from the hospital yesterday.

She may hesitate in her speech a little and sometimes her words are a little wrong (who doesn't do that?) BUT Karen is pretty-much back and I am on my knees before our God.

He heard, he listened and he answered.

Yup, any time I have any little doubts about God or Holy Scripture, all I need to do is look at my lovely wife. Praise God, Karen is with us and alive.

Nothing cutesy or challenging or different ... Left to our own devices with nobody to impress, most of us have deep faith in a higher power, God. Honestly, the athiest, who believes only that belief and faith are fruitless, must be very alone and sad.

To me and to most of us here, life is about laughter and love; that is TRUTH.

GOD IS LOVE and I see Him in Karen. Simply looking at Karen brings tears of happiness to my eyes.

May God Bless All of You,

Steve

So those who were not baptized outside the RC were taught to have the possibility of salvation outside of that insitution?

If that is the case I owe the RC an apology. Because of its teachings on the sacraments I've always understood this to be their teachings.

I must apologize to you as well for the mistatement. I hope you'll forgive me.

I am SO happy to hear that your wife is recovering!

Regards,

The Inquisition is still with us. I think it's the Office of Religious Faith or some such. Obviously, they do not do the torture chamber bit or burn heretics and witches at the stake any more but they do the excommunication bit.

Steve,
Seeing prayer answered before your eyes is a soul searing thing. You are never the same, though HE is!

I'm so glad to hear that Karen is improving. Prayers continue from here.

Ed

Absolutely!

We are all friends here.

Over the years, I have heard of several "less than perfect" baptisms that the Church has recognized.

My favorite being a clandestine lay baptism, at night, in the kitchen sink, at the request of the Mother of the child.

It seems Dad had hidden his dislike of religion all the way the marriage ceremony at HIS church.

Later, the child sought to join the Catholic Church, disclosed his baptism circumstances, and was amazed to learn it was valid.

I understand that the news brought tears to the eyes of his Aunt who participated in the Clandestine Event at the request of her sister (his Mom).

BMT

Steve, I'm happy the Karen is making a speedy recovery. May it remain so.

From your Pagan friend.

God Bless both of you

I usually avoid these discussions for a couple of reasons:

1, I greatly respect folks of strong convictions and the moral code to stand by those convictions.

2, To be frank, I am somewhat envious of the comfort many folks find in their faith, and I would not deny anyone that comfort.

But I do have to disagree on this "core issue". The issue mentioned is simply that which separates the three branches which have grown from the root Abraham planted.

The real core to Christianity, and most any other religion is the belief in an eternal soul. Which, by the way, many Christian churches teach is not eternal at all, except through Christ's salvation.

For any person who might believe that we totally and completely cease to exist when electrical activity within the brain ceases......belief in the validity of Christ becomes a rather moot point.

I'm confused , Mr. Idaho , as to why you quoted the last half of my post , when the first half of it made the point you dis agree with .

"that one thing that more than anything else separates it from all similar or competing belief systems."

The belief in an eternal soul is common to many religions other than the three you mention.

The "core" of Christianity is the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.That's not just my opinion.

Read the Creed.

Friends,

In the last few days, I've done a great deal of soul-searching. For some reason this got down to an examination of two factors: Faith and Knowledge.

Given a choice between Knowledge and Faith in Our Precious Lord ...

I would chose FAITH.

I would always chose FAITH.

And sinking to my knees in worship of God, in whom I have all the FAITH in the World ... well, that defines me as one of His Own and it is what brings breath to me every morning. Faith is what drives my LOVE.

GOD IS LOVE and I see Living-Faith whenever I see Karen's face.

God Bless All Of You,

Steve

I will not criticize your religion, nor any other man's.

My point was, simply, without any belief in any form of "life after death" all discussion of religion becomes meaningless.

Discussion of Hindu vs Buddha vs Apollo vs Zeus vs Allah vs Christ must be predicated upon some form of afterlife.

Idaho_Shooter,



You will not critcize, you will just show yor ignorance. You, like so many who think they know something, need to read the Bible and you will discover a sect of Jews who did NOT believe in life after death. They called themselves Sadducees.

"On that day some Sadducees (who says there is no resurrection) came to Him and questioned Him.". Mtthew 22:23

Praise The Lord for prayers answered for Karen

Ringman,

I will not protest my ignorance. Please enlighten me.

Tell me more of these Sadducees.

Could there be a Heaven with no souls to populate it?

Could there be a Hell with no souls to populate it?

Could there be any eternity with no soul?

Could there be any god with no soul?

Can there be any religion which has no belief in a soul?

Praise the Lord that He has brought Karen back to health,as you have gone through this valley your Faith has been increased and strengthened,we can all praise the lord for that answer to prayer,HE has answered quickly ,decisivly,
which has bolstered the faith of many .PTL

I rest my case! A man of God indeed!

Honored to call you my brother Steve, and thrilled to continue to hear of Karens further recovery.

You both are an inspiration to many of us here.

I have to respectfully disagree with your opening statement. The Early Roman Church really didn't come into being until roughly 100 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus. Until that time even the Christian gatherings within Rome were fractured. Many of the early writings speak to this, and even some of the Books of the Bible itself were letters from the Apostle Paul to these fractured Churches in an attempt to bring them under a unified theology.

The famous portion of his letter to the church at Corinth addressed this in the well known passages about the Body of Christ. He was instructing them that the Body would have many members but is still one Body.

Even when the Roman Church stated to gain a foothold and assert itself, there was still the Greek Church, African Church, and so on.

So, historically speaking, those early years were tumultuous to say the least. The Roman church was NOT the only game in town.

Also, as some have pointed out here, there was a schism in the Church long before the Protestant Reformation. That schism is when the Roman Catholic Church assumed it name in order to distinguish itself from the Byzantine Church. There were two popes, two Churches claiming to be the true Catholic (universal) Church.

A funny song brings a jovial mirth to that time period that I am sure you are familiar with. "Istanbul was Constantinople".

An interesting fact that is seldom looked at, is that the man who started the Protestant Revolution did so by placing his 99 edicts on the front door of a Church building that was a part of yet another break from the Roman Catholic Church, the Church of England.

You ARE correct though that the Roman Catholic Church does still maintain that they are the true Catholic (universal) Church but only in a historical sense. The Roman Catholic leadership and Evangelical (Protestant) Leadership got together in the 1990's to sign what is now known as the ECT (Evangelicals and Catholics together) agreement in an attempt to bring both parties back together as an actual universal Church. It's an amazing document, as it does acknowledge the differences in Scriptural interpretations between the parties, and even calls those differences irreconcilable. Us protestants can be a stubborn bunch

I encourage all Christians, both Catholic and Protestant alike to take a look at the ECT. It was beautifully done and in my mind should be maintained as one of the great historical documents of our histories.

An excerpt from that document:



The signers of the ECT:



Link to the ECT

Friends,

A little more on my recent realization about knowledge and faith is in order.

One of my last goals in life is to write a book about the early-Church. Included will be coverage of the Apostolic-Fathers, folks like Clement of Rome, who learned "The Way" by studying under Saint Paul, Saint Paul and Saint John. Saint Plycarp, Saint Ignatius of Antioch, Saint Justin Martyr and Saint Irenaeus of Lyons will also play greatly in the book.

Perhaps the book will include early Christian pilgrims like Egeria (her writing is a delight) and possibly the deeply mysterious Pilgrim of Bordeaux.

I have studied the times and the characters who figure greatly in the early-Church for many decades.

During my Darling Karen's crisis, I came to realize that all the booklearning in the world doesn't mean spit ... it all comes down to simple, deep and pre FAITH.

I've never heard of a "Leap of Knowledge." But a "Leap of Faith" is something that we all MUST do when we choose to be one of His followers. And I'm becoming more and more of the belief that the greater the Leap of Faith, the more Our Lord appreciates our Faith in Him.

Many times in Our Lord's time of teaching here on earth, He said "Your FAITH has saved you." He never says, "Your knowledge has saved you."

When we stand in front of Him to be judged, it will be our FAITH in Him, our Love of Him that will be judged.

It is our FAITH as Christians that defines us, not our knowledge.

Many, many times I've watched ancient ladies in the pews of our Catholic church. It literally hurts them to kneel, but they do it gladly. And they stay in that position, adoring Our Lord and recounting the many wonderful times in His life by praying one of the Mysteries of the Rosary (every day of the week is different). Praying the Rosary is all about Him and these devout, Jesus-loving old ladies receive the greatest of pleasure in adoring Jesus by praying the Rosary.

Those of us who have spent many, many decades in the pursuit of knowledge should be humbled by such a display of pure and simple FAITH.

Before Karen's crisis I considered knowledge and faith to be pretty-much equal. Today, I am very much of the opinion that FAITH trumps all.

"Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen, and have believed." Jesus' immortal statement is the classic definition of FAITH.

My Brothers, we are all struggling through this lifetime, all trying to do our best to Love Our Lord. May we all eventually attain a state of total and unquestioning FAITH in Our Lord ... at that moment, we will be ready to be judged by him.

Here's hoping that we all make it.

The Lord Be With You,

Steve

+1

Very true. If one doesn't believe, it is just a book.
Faith, a gift, comes first.

Pete

Plinker,

Thank you for that gift.

That was sorely needed this morning.

Ed

I became a Christian and was baptized at a Baptist church in the mid eighties.
I joined the Catholic Church in 97 and learned that my original baptism was considered perfectly acceptable by The Church.
I have never had any of my Catholic friends tell me I wasn't saved until I joined their church, FWIW.

That, my friend, is because you have the gift of faith. Not all of us do...while I deeply respect your faith and the faith of others and consider the defense of the right to believe as one wishes as a sacred trust, I am not a praying man, not a believer. How? Why?
Responding to those questions and commenting on the quoted idea is a slippery slope, often leading to arguments which are impossible to resolve because faith and belief in a deity is, at its heart, not rational (that is NOT the same thing as saying that the belief is wrong....just that common rational argument won't work to prove it's validity).
How could anyone not believe in God? Why not?
It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Respectfully,
Pete

I appreciate your comments(and respect), Pete.
A far cry from BC and others that feel the need to treat believers with mockery and scorn.

Pete,

Thank you for your reply. I hear and understand what you are saying and your reasoning for it and greatly appreciate your thoughtful response!

I walked the same path as not only a person with no faith, but a believer that faith itself was somehow delusional. Then, for reasons that were (then) unknown and unfathomable to me, I began to see what people of faith were talking about and living.
The next step was the realization that there WAS a god, indeed THE GOD, and that there was a possibility of a personal relationship with Him. There was (and still is) an indescribable feeling when that happened, and I'm sure that others can describe it much better than I, but it was not solicited by me.

The only way I can describe my transformation is that of a blind man who begins seeing black and white images, then color images, then 3D color with THX.

The amazement still continues, hence my rhetorical question "how can someone NOT believe...?)

I know that there are non-believers, and that it is "not rational" to believe in a deity, but then there are things in the "rational" world that are accepted when they are mere theories, theories that are constantly challenged and disproven, yet GOD and faith are challenged every day and cannot be disproven.
I have heard the adage "you can't disprove a negative", but that does not apply here, and the reason is, there IS proof of faiths' validity, of God's existence, and of His responses to our faith.

I know that I cannot convince you, that we can discuss, argue, and go around and around in circles, because,you have to see it for yourself. It is there.

I wish with all my heart that you COULD see.

Respectfully,

Ed

Steve, I'd be HIGHLY interested in such a book. I simply adore the histories of the hero's and fathers of our faith.

HAJ,
The works of St. Augustine make for fascinating reading.
I also am going to give DZ's list there a closer look.

and we all know how accurate translations, re-translations, followed by more re-translations are.

You are a fine gentleman, PeteD. If you don't mind, I would like to pray for a change in your heart and mind that would lead to your being saved. I'd very much like to spend eternity with good folks like you.

Idaho_Shooter,



Read God's Word.

Dr. Kindell, who has two earned doctrates and one honorary doctrates, used to be a very enthusiastic antaganist of Christianity. After a thorough examination became a Christian. He stated one time, "There would be a whole lot more serious Christians if there were a whole lot more serious skeptics."

If you don't investigate for yourself, you are what Jesus refers to as the blind leading the blind.

Easy to say - I guess.
But until you can show where I treat "believers" (and I am a believer myself - it's just that in my case my religion is different than yours) with "mockery and scorn" I'm going to call bullsh*t on your accusation.

It's very easy to know mockery and scorn however - try being a Scientific Pantheist in a predominantly Christian society - if you were one - as I am - then you could really appreciate the truth behind those words. It's probably the same for anyone who's non Judeo-Christian in many areas of our society.

I was introduced to Augustine's writing while in a State college. I was going through the honors class "Foundations in Western Thought." Basically, how western culture came to be. Of course we all know that much of it came out of the Judeo-Christian and Greco-Roman principles and values. So, naturally one of the things we were assigned to read was Augustine. I was hooked! Fascinating reading is an understatement my friend!

I really love the writings of C.S. Lewis. As the literary chairman of Oxford University he had a really deep grasp on logic and linear thinking. His ability to use common everyday sense to logically prove to himself that God is real, and the Bible is true, is astounding.

..... and it makes ya feel smart if you can understand what he's saying! The man sure doesn't write on a 12th grade level!

Cool HAJ! I am a big C.S. Lewis fan, also.
"Mere Christianity" is one of my all time favorite works.

How can it NOT be!?

Would you want to have everlasting life, Pete?

I think it is very fitting that this discussion comes on the heels of another of God's miracles.

This miracle I am speaking of is the recent illness suffered by Dogzapper's wife, and her subsequent complete recovery. But, there are millions of others. This one just stands out because it is so recent. Not the most recent, because there have been other miracles from God that we are unaware of, in my and my families' life, and in other peoples lives as well.

For you skeptics, you might want to go back and re-read this entire thread. There is a lesson to be learned here, a lesson that can affect where you will spend eternity.

There was a point in my life, up until a few years ago that I believed in God.

Now, there is a point where I KNOW, without a doubt in this world that God lives and is real. There is a difference in believing and knowing, and you have to 'know' before you can experience this feeling. It is entirely different from just believing. That is not meant to belittle believing, because with most people, believing comes first, then comes knowing.

I am 71 years old now. Thinking back, as best as I can remember, I was about 4 or 5 years when I first heard about God. I might have been younger. But one thing I do remember is that I did not doubt God's existance then, nor do I doubt God's existance now, 60 something years later. If God has the power to come into the mind of a 4 or 5 year old kid and convinces that kid that God is indeed real, how can anyone doubt it at any age? It justs does not make any sense to me that anyone can doubt God's existance.

For you skeptics who have posted, I hope and pray that someday you will experience this feeling, and the feeling deep down that you know without a doubt that God lives.

I know this is strange coming from me but you are right. There are many Jewish sects that do not believe in life after death or at least are agnostic concerning life after death.

Yup, it took, plus or minus, 100 years for the Roman Christian Church to develop into a power house. The Great Schism split the Roman Christian Church into the Orthodox Christian Church (Eastern) and the Roman Latin Church (Western).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism

The Roman Latin Church was the only game in town in Western and Northern Europe after the Great Schism. That was what I meant. I keep forgetting not everybody has my background. Sorry.

I can't say that we have the same background but we sure do read the same history books..... I think.

Only game in town in Western and Northern Europe after the Great Schism and up to the Church of England, which predates the Protestant Revolution. Now, THAT I would agree with....

Still, gotta love guys like Gutenberg......

story i've always heard was that the old line Anglicans were more catholic than the Catholics.

Scripture is a story handed down over the generations to give man something to measure his life with. Key word is a story.

.............And IF those stories happened to be true events?

Still waiting for anyone to dis-prove any Scripture within the Bible with hard core evidence. Hasn`t happen yet!

Feelings and opinions as it relates to disbelief, is not hard evidence.

Are you kidding me?

The approximately 6000 year old earth found in the Bible and the order of creation (which is different in Genesis VS 1 & 2 interesting enough - both can't be right) have been absolutely, positively, and totally dis-proven with a huge amount of scientific data in multiple fields of scholarship.

The fossil record totally disproves the Biblical account.

Not that this will change the minds of those who wish to willfully dismiss virtually all scientific consensus so they can believe what was written.

The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The order of events known from science is closer to being the opposite. If you are doubtful, please re-read Genesis 1:1-2:3

[/quote]

I enjoy the Noah's Arc story. (stress on story)

The earth was covered with water?? Fresh or Salt? Where did Noah put the fish? Fresh or salt? Get it? The earth has always had the same amount of water in/on or above it. Where did the extra water come from to cover the earth and where did it go after the flood receded? Fresh or Salt water?

A story to measure our lives with... A Story.

Amen my Brother, Amen.

Belief vs. Faith

If Jesus was at the edge of the Grand Canyon proclaiming be could cross pushing a wheelbarrow supported solely by a �� cable stretched across the Grand Canyon, many of us would believe He could do it, after all, He is the son of God, and perfect and capable of anything.

You would display faith by getting in the wheelbarrow.

I'd feel better about that scenario if Jesus said he could cross with a loaded wheelbarrow.

George

Why?

It was a joke, I guess I should have used a smiley thing.

All I'm saying is that if the Son of God says he can push a wheelbarrow across, without mentioning a load....who am I to jump in and push his limits.

George

1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. before the big bang 3Then God said, �Let there be light�; and there was light. (big bang) 4God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

6Then God said, �Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.� 7God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. (atmosphere formed)

9Then God said, �Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear�; and it was so. 10God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good. 11Then God said, �Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them�; and it was so.

(plant life)

12The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good. 13There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

14Then God said, �Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth�; and it was so. 16God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. 17God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. 19There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

20Then God said, �Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.� 21God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 22God blessed them, saying, �Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.� 23There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24Then God said, �Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind�; and it was so. 25God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

26Then God said, �Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.� 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28God blessed them; and God said to them, �Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.� 29Then God said, �Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food�; and it was so. 31God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (mankind formed last)

Much of this matches theoretical physics (such as the emptiness prior to the Big Bang).

Much of it matches known biology.

"Conflict" with "known" facts is a tough stretch since we have no witnessed to interview.

BMT

And on the 8th day he created the Huskers!


Story.... Plain and simple


Adam and Eve is another nice story.

It is amazing that the ones who do not believe in God spend more time and effort trying to disprove Him than the believers do in giving reasons why they accept Him.

I am at a complete loss how people can believe that we evolved from rock slime, and are a cosmic accident when one can just walk outside and see a very small portion of the incredibly intricate splendor of nature. Then consider how fascinatingly well every part of nature fits in its niche�no, we�re not an cosmic accident and the Bible is not a collection of fictional stories.

I look at it this way. Prophecy is something meant for a future time. Peoples experiences and interpretations change over time.

So, lets say John on Patomos saw the end times as a literal vision. Could he say what he saw outside his own experiences. Could he describe a helicopter as a manned aircraft, or would he see it as a locust. Would he see a nuclear detonation as what it is, or would he describe it as a falling star.


Then if the mechanics were given to him, how would people over the ages intemperate what he said since it is completely outside their reference.

So what he said centuries ago we are just now being able to understand.

This discussion would be a study that would take years.The best thing would be to study the complete history of what we call scripture.My only warning is that it will take you the rest of your life.You will end up with many very different Bibles.You will get very confused often.You will stop making a lot of blanket statements.Our understanding is limited.We have precious little information to go by.

...........Ok! Who invented the very science which man studies?

So while science may appear to be very conflictive with the Genesis accounts, is it really?

Remember that while carbon 14 dating is the normal way of testing for age on how old materials are, is it possible that the earth is much younger than what the man made method of carbon 14 dating shows?

I understand why the Bible conflicts with science and the problems with reconciliation.

Nevertheless, Biblical Scripture regardless of how it is interpreted, cannot be disproved. One can always argue, but one cannot disprove the Bible.

Besides, how old the earth is, how old the universe is etc, is not the determining factor for the forgiveness of sin or personal salvation.

Maybe it is not in God`s plan for man to reconcile science with Genesis.

God had to have a way of letting those who leaned on their own understanding to be led astray.

No conflict there.Read the first two sentences of Genesis.Now study the word we translate "was" is this correct.How about "became"does this fit better.

jdm953,

So the we could say Adam and Eve "became" naked? It does not work when you try to add to God's Word. Trying to accomodate long ages with the Scripture does not work.

Science is what we know, not what we speculate about. There is nothing in science that conflicts with Scripture. There is a lot of conjecture, mascarading as science, which some scientists try to push on the public as science. The problem the conjecturers have is there are thousands of Ph.D. level scientists who show with science the problems with an old universe and earth. With an electrom mass spetrometer carbon 14 has been found in ALL samples of coal, ALL samples of fosils and ALL diamonds. One could argue contamination with the first two, but contaminating a diamond is imposible.

One of the lecturers I listened to, a Ph.D in chemistry, shows how oil cannot take a long time make. If there is not enough preasure and heat it wont start the chain reaction. If there is enough it happens fast. Try to explain the geodatic presure of oil with a millions of years old deposit. It is not going to happen. The presure would have disipated many thousands of years ago.

I wrote an essay showing lots of this type of info. It is about twenty pages long. If anyone wants to read it I will send it to them in a private message.

kinda what i was getting at in an earlier post, if yah look as the Bible as inspired by god and not the literal word from god as a whole....with only a lil literary license it does not ignore science.....only things that MAY ignore science are the miracles told in the Bible and quite frankly they just dont match current known science...or in some cases do but cant figure out how the ancients woulda done them without modern technology.....

Coupla things if you don't mind a skeptic chiming in again.
One - this set of arguments has made its way on to the slippery slope that I mentioned earlier. It is as if this set of details has been scripted, the responses on both sides are predictable and commonplace - no new ground to be had in a very old argument.

About the RC church being infallible as mentioned earlier. Not true....the "church" has never claimed infalliblity. The notion comes from church doctrine regarding the Pope. It is the Catholic belief that the Pope is infallible when speaking "ex cathedra" on matters of faith and morals. He ain't considered infallible about anything else.
About timelines:

I have always dated the beginning of the Protestant Revolution with the publication of Martin Luther's 95 (or 99) theses at the University of Wittenberg in 1518.
Henry the VIII established the Church of England with his Act of Supremacy in 1534. So...I do not see the "predate" idea as correct, unless there is a date later than Luther's challenge to doctrine.

About belief and lack of.....one cannot disprove the existence of God. Cannot.
But....one cannot prove it either. That's what I mentioned before when I wrote that normal means will not work in the argument - because faith is the basis.
What I have said to others in discussions such as this is "Look at what you are asking me to believe." List the qualities of God - difficult for me to accept. That's what I meant when I wrote that belief doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It does, however, make a great deal of sense to the many devout folk posting in this thread.


Language is important. Using the "rock slime" image introduces very negative connotations in to the idea. (Who wants to be associated with slime?). The idea is that we evolved from a single cell somewhere in the primordial sea.
That the Universe is incredibly intricate is very true and that intricacy could just as well be used to support the accident of nature viewpoint. With all those billions upon billions of stars and planets and whatever else....all those possiblities. If you have a vast number of experiments, it is likely that sooner or later there will be a success.
And things do fit together fascinatingly well - even Chaos theory - is that fit proof of an all powerful, all knowing, omnipresent mind? Or do we see what helps us believe?
Pete

I tend to forget the Church of England but they certainly rebelled so they would have to be considered the first "protestant" church.

"The religious settlement that eventually emerged in the reign of Elizabeth I gave the Church of England the distinctive identity that it has retained to this day. It resulted in a Church that consciously retained a large amount of continuity with the Church of the Patristic and Medieval periods in terms of its use of the catholic creeds, its pattern of ministry, its buildings and aspects of its liturgy, but which also embodied Protestant insights in its theology and in the overall shape of its liturgical practice. The way that this is often expressed is by saying that the Church of England is both 'catholic and reformed.'"

http://www.churchofengland.org/about-us/history.aspxhttp://www.churchofengland.org/about-us/history.aspxhttp://www.churchofengland.org/about-us/history.aspx

Why waste the time to give you sources it wouldn't do any good.

We must have the same Bible, Brother Rick. A hearty AMEN! to what you said. Period. What need have we of more?

I have a copy of the same Bible too I guess...

Anglican Priest for 25 years (married) just joined our Catholic Just and was ordained a Priest. He undertook more seminary studies in order to do so.

Its getting more common as the reformed, and Catholic sides split up.

BMT

You are exactly correct Pete. There was a Church of England but as a geographical extension of the Roman Catholic Church. The Church of England deferred to the Pope until King Henry VIII broke from the auspices of the RCC so he could divorce his queen and marry the sister of his mistress.

The Castle Church in Wittenberg, where Luther posted his 95, was the chapel of the University at the time. I have never heard it said it was affiliated in any way with the Church of England, but even if it had been , it would have been Roman Catholic in doctrine, not Protestant.

True.

I may not be able to prove it to you, but God can. That He hasn't yet, may be in His timing or in your focus. I fully believe that God does things everyday to get our attention and show us He is in our lives. If we chose to see those things as God, give Him thanks, and look for more, we will find them. All good things come from God so when any good thing happens, take a few seconds and say "thanks". That births a tiny faith from which a dialogue can start along with an amazing journey. Try it sometime. You might be surprised at the outcome.

A married Catholic priest?
Interesting, very interesting,BMT!

Ricky: That was a pleasant response to a skeptic.

Yes...I quite agree. The operant words there are "if we choose to see"......it's that faith thing again. If a person has the faith, then the choice to see ourselves and the world about us as extensions of the mind and work of a deity is easy; it makes sense. As I said before - it doesn't for me. From my perspective, that's not bad; it is what it is. I live a happy, moral life, trying to make the most of what is about me and give value to each moment that I have. I cannot say that I feel like I am missing anything....though many believers will, no doubt, disagree.
I try to remain open to new ideas.
Pete

Gotta read it in Hebrew.

Although, when Paul wrote that, he must have been referring to the Old Testament as Scripture, right? Or maybe only the Torah? Because 2Timothy wasn't Scripture in 67 AD, it was a letter to Timothy. In 67 AD, Scripture would have been the Torah, the Pentateuch, right?



Sycamore

NOTE: God knows what God is Saying. At the time, Paul may have believed that the "Old Testament" was the "Scripture" of which he wrote.

God knew that the Letter itself would be come scripture. And God inspired Paul to write it that way intentionally.

BMT

Priests were allowed to marry till about 550 yrs ago when a pope decided against it.

I agree with your response, BMT.

Further, the experience Paul had on the road to Damascus introduced him first hand to the Glorified Christ, Who was the Word made flesh, and as such was responsible for all sacred writings up to that time. That meeting dramatically changed Saul, the man who was resolved in destroying the Church, to Paul, the one who strengtened it and helped secure it's survival. Apart from that, what happened when Paul was face to face with Jesus is conjecture, but I would believe from the content of his letters, he knew what he was writing was important to fill in the gaps and questions the gospel accounts left open and to further instruct the Church of their role in this new and better covenant.

True.

I may not be able to prove it to you, but God can. That He hasn't yet, may be in His timing or in your focus. I fully believe that God does things everyday to get our attention and show us He is in our lives. If we chose to see those things as God, give Him thanks, and look for more, we will find them. All good things come from God so when any good thing happens, take a few seconds and say "thanks". That births a tiny faith from which a dialogue can start along with an amazing journey. Try it sometime. You might be surprised at the outcome.

[/quote]

RickyD, that was one, no, it was THE best response I have ever heard in any discussion of proving the existance of God. "But God can." He certainly can.

To add a little more about the subject of Carbon dating and other things that have happened throughout the ages, it also says in the Bible that God's ways are not our ways. What we can and do understand just might be a very tiny portion of what is out there.

Also someone mentioned earlier about Jesus being cruicified, then arising from the dead. I don't remember the exact quote, but IIRC, the writer implied that this was the first time someone was raised from the dead, and was a bit skeptical about it.

Seems I remember reading that Jesus raised a few people from the dead before He Himself was raised up.

This has been an interesting thread to read. Good responses. Thanks for the input.


Seek Me with your whole being. I desire to be found by you, and I orchestrate the events of your life with that purpose in mind. When things go well and you are blessed, you can feel Me smiling on you. When you encounter rough patches along your life-journey, trust that My Light is still shining upon you. My reasons for allowing these adversities may be shrouded in mystery, but My continual Presence with you is an absolute promise. Seek Me in good times; seek Me in hard times. You will find Me watching over you all the time.
Sarah Young



Deuteronomy 4: 29