The book just came in the mail, I know what I'm reading tonight.

Is this about the P-47?

Yup, about Robert S. Johnson who flamed 28 German planes while flying the 'Bolt. I've been waiting a long time to read this one.

There was a good biography of General Abrams, by the same name. I think it was his call sign, maybe when he served under Patton.

Sycamore

greatest piston prop warplane ever made, hands down. lemme know what you think when done.

All 7 tons of it!

That is a great book, by Lewis Sorely. "Thunderbolt" was the name of Abrams' command tank; by the time Abrams left Europe (after having led the relief of Bastogne in 1944) he was riding in "Thunderbolt VII."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shsxuauQA3w

excellent video bb215, thanks!

I hardly feel the Jug rises to that accolade, but it was a good plane.

Pilots loved it. And I know my 2 uncles that flew in bombers in the ETO loved having them around. Some of the photos I have seen of the damage those Jugs could absorb and still bring their pilots back are incredible.

EXCELLANT VIDEO,Thanks.

i've seen the video interview of 1 guy who flew both the P47 and the P51 in combat... He loved both of them for different reasons...
As I recall, he described the P47 as a rock solid weapons platform which maximized a pilots chances of achieving an attack mission and returning alive. He thought the P51 to be the best flying machine of it's day, with greater agility, faster climb, and better high altitude flight qualities...

No first hand knowledge of course but I believe the agruement as to which was best P47 VS P51 is the same as the arguement as to which heavy bomber was the best B17 VS B24.

I have a cousin who flew in WWII and had two confirmed kills in the Pacific. He says the Corsiar was the best ever of course.

Sums things up nicely. Of course, no one in the air or on the ground wanted to face eight of John Browning's finest creation. The P-51 had to make do with six.

P-47 vs P-51 apples & oranges in my IMO.Both great air frames but I'd side with the Mustang in any air/air most of the time..the Jug did have one advantage it could usually get out of jamb by pointing it's big heavy nose at the ground to out run most opponents if necessary.Gotta love that Hellcat and Corsair too!

The quote I like about B-17 vs. B-24 is one I read in a book somewhere, can't attribute the source right now, and I may be slightly butchering it: The B-24 could take you further away faster but the B-17 was more likely to bring you back in one piece.

I was walking a few miles outside Duxford back in 2004, and the Fighter Collection P47 came roaring over, and proceeded to do some aerobatics. Beautiful English day, with the blue sky, clouds, and brilliant green landscape. I still remember how the sun glinted off the aluminum, and how visible the invasion stripes were. One of my favorite airplane spectator memories.

Too bad the USAAF/USAF didn't keep a few squadrons; it would have been much better than the Mustang for close air support in Korea.

Yes, the Air Force Brass cost many pilots their lives in Korea with that foolish decision. They knew the jets were coming after WWII and that the piston aircraft would get regulated to attack rather than air superiority roles. That alone should have gotten them to keep the Radial engined aircraft over the liquid cooled models. Radials were always better for attack aircraft because they were more survivable.

The p-51 was a sweet aircraft to fly, but the p-47 was far more survivable.

Mark in GA

Here is a read for the Thunderbolt pilots who virtually had face to face, air to ground combat supporting the D-Day Invasion.

These guys were largely responsible for making the German Wehrmacht ineffective. Also, ending any serious threat and deployment of the V1 program. There were a lot of Allied ground troop who loved to see those pilots and crews at work wearing the markings of the Ninth Air Force. Those in combat on the ground, knew the Ninth was making their trip to Berlin easier than it would have been.

The book below is aptly titled:

HELL HAWKS - Robert F. Dorr & Thomas D. Jones

My Dad's cousin flew 144 missions, starting in Sicily, and finishing in France, in P-40's and P-47's. I retrieved an accident report for a noseover he had in a P-47 in fall of '44 in France. He managed to run off the marsden mat runway on landing, and into a ditch. They wrote it up as 10% weather, 90% pilot error. According the report: the weather was raining, 1 mile visibility, gusting crosswinds up to 30 mph...... I'd hate to think what would have happened in "bad" weather..,.

Yep, but Mustangs were abundant and cheap to fly. Thunderbolts cost about 40% more, and had little loiter time compared to the ponies.

My Dad would have agree to that! 3 shot-up Republics got him West of those White Cliffs. The shot-up 51 and that damn radiator location got him in the Sea.

Later on, in '45. he grew to dislike the '51. Lost too many of his younger pilots, on account of that radiator and their youthful zeal to get in the combat. They finally got the problem improved on the later series, and the '51 went on to it's fame as a fighter.

Had a good friend here,he flew the 51 and the F4u.said the 51 was good but he would take the Corsair over it anytime!

If'n I had to choose, especially if I could fly like Robert Johnson, I'd pick a Jug to fight in in the skies above Europe any day. Johnson handily whupped the Germans he met in combat, and even bested that Spit in a practice duel.

If nothing else I could, as RAF pilots reportedly used to joke, dodge around in the fuselage when under fire.

Birdwatcher

We have probably all heard the term,...to give the whole nine yards. Anybody want to take a guess where that term came from.

27 ft of .50 cal ammo belts?

I heard that once -- have no idea if'n its true or not.



Johnny $

Since we mention the P-47, I'll raise a glass to Francis "Gabby" Gabreski. (I hope I spelled his last name right.) Gabby was one of our Thunderbolt Aces.

My great grandmothers neighbor flew P-38s and P-47s in WWII. He later went on to train Korean pilots. He had some amazing stories to tell about the punishment the P-47 could take (and give out).

That book about Robert Johnson, I read that book as a kid right around 1965... I lived in England from 1963 to 1966 as an AF dependent...I got into all of the aviation of WW2 during that time, and it has been a lifelong passion...

my favorite fighter of that period has always been the Thunderbolt...

I always mentally compared the Mustang and Thunderbolt in my mind to say a car vs car comparison...

the Mustang was much like its auto namesake the 1965 Mustang.. light, agile, maneuverable..fast...

the Thunderbolt was more like a 53 Buick.. big & heavy.. but heaven help anything that gets in its way...

my aunt pulled out in front of a 53 Buick once, by running a stop sign... she had her 67 Mustang... her car was hit by the Buick and totaled big time... the driver of the Buick had to replace his bumper and his left front fender...

Big and Bad... that was my love for the Thunderbolt...

and yeah, I am sure the AF regretted destroying all the ones they did after WW2 for scrap... especially when they had to deal with ground support in Korea...

the Navy and Marines in Korea had the Corsair and the Skyraider in Korea... the AF had to make due with the P 51s...

great planes, but hardly in their best element when it came to ground attack...

in the air, the Thunderbolt was heavy hitting, could shake an enemy aircraft with its ability to dive or also nothing could snap roll like a Thunderbolt...

and as said.. nothing could hold up to the battle damage a Thunderbolt could in WW2....

that is why the 9th AF, which were the first Mustang users, had them taken away from them and re equipped with the P47 leading up to and after D Day....

there was this old guy who use to be part of an aviation enthusiast group back when I lived in Minnesota..it met at the St Paul/Mpls Airport, at the Museum they had ( which isn't a bad little Museum..) if anyone is familiar with the Monogram Model of the P47, they did one which the name of the aircraft was the "Turtle".. he was the pilot... sadly at the time he was part of the group, he was in a walker...he served in the 9th AF about 7 or 8 months (IIRC).... he fly 10 different P47s with that name...

shot to crap from ground fire... but they brought him home... never to fly again.. but they made it home... as he put it.. and Kept him from being a guest at the "Adolph Hitler Bed and Breakfast".....and as he also put it, a P 51 would have had him shot down behind enemy lines 9 times...

Ya'll are welcome. I happened onto it just by googling Thunderbolt. I think there was another one, also.

Great aircraft!

A very good friend flew Corsairs in the Japan country and said that was one mighty airplane.

How about this.



L.W.

Then Hub Zemke would tell ya you were wrong! I met or chatted with Mr. Zemke at 5X or more gunshows I attended in Salt Lake City. Zemke was selling fancy stock blanks.

Zemke praised the P47 for its ruggedness and ability to perform its missions after getting hit. He praised the '51 for its aerobatic talents/qualities, but resented its fragility!

I remember him telling a friend and me that the Mustang was a great AC for its manueverability, but preferred the sturdier 'Jug' to protect its pilot and get the job done!

Who here at 24HCF knows how Zemke went down and became a POW?

Zemke was flying an escort mission in a P51, with three other AC's in his flight. At about 28,000 feet they hit a cold front (head on) the meteorologist failed to mention at BRIEFING that morning. Two Mustangs (including Zemke's ship) literally broke apart and desintegrated while flying straight and level!

One moment Zemke was flying and the next he was free-falling through air and popped his parachute! Francis Gabraski was XO and took over the squadron, before he too went down (after nicking his prop when straffing too low!).

Plus, who is aware that the P47D with its 14' 4-bladed propellor (and whatever engine at that time), had a faster rate of climb than ANY other fighter in Eurpoe at that time? True story.

da WHOLE nine yards!

Good plane but the #1 American killing machine in WWII was the F6F Hellcat. The Hellcat would account for no less than 75% of all Allied air kills in the theater at the hands of United States Navy pilots. It proved to be an "ace maker" for American pilots in the Pacific Theater, accounting for some 5,156 kills (US Navy/Marine Corps combined) credited to 307 Hellcat aces.

The pictures I took below can be seen in large size if opened in a new window.

My grandfather did time with Zemke in Stalag Luft I. He was always greatful for Zemke's efforts to get the US brass to take seriously the fact that the Soviets who liberated the camp wanted to take the POWs as hostages to bargain for more of Europe after the war. Zemke got them liberated from Russia after they were liberated from Germany.

Yup, that's true. Went to a lecture by the Montana Historical Society on the B-17 bomb training sites in Montana during WWII and the lecturer said she had just learned that every ,50 on the B-17 had 9 yards of ammo. A former gunner in the audience said that was true.

I love to go to these lectures on Montana history because there are always a large number of 80 and 90 year olds who have been there and done that. A lot of history with these very senior citizens.

ya know Tim,

I went to a speaking engagement back in the late 90s given by Ken Jerstad to the Civil Air Patrol at the community college in Coos Bay on a weekday night...

poor guy was blind and was 88 years old..and had his golden retriever seeing eye dog with him..

Ken Was one of the Flying Tigers in China.. and is accorded his fame as one...

one of the kids asked how he got into the Flying Tigers, and after he laughed, he asked the kid, "you think I was a hero huh?"

he told about being stationed in the Norfolk Va as a Navy pilot... his group has orders to be attached to an Carrier that was going on a tour in the Bering Sea... they were told at a Briefing, that they were to put their personal affairs in order...it was expected that 50 to 70% of them would not come back due to the weather conditions for flying in carrier operations...

after the briefing several days later, they heard a pitch by Claire Chennault about the need for volunteer "pilots in ASIA".. it wasn't stated who they would fight for or where they would go...just that it was in Asia and the US military would allow any pilot who wanted to resign his commission and go, would have the blessings of the White House..

so the night before the opportunity was going to be gone, and their unit was ready to ship out, over a batch of beers at the bar, he and several of his buddies decided to resign their commissions and go to 'Asia' with Chennault..

their reasoning was they were not being heroes... Asia offered better chances of surviving, than the odds they were being given on the duty in the Bering Sea....

so we took the easy way out...

I've heard stories like that before. It's amazing how many "heroes" took what they thought was the lesser of two evils for survival.

I remember Audie Murphy saying the only reason he was the most decorated "hero" of WWII was that he was the unlucky stiff who was still standing when the fighting was over.

Zemke hated the rooshiins! I was unaware 'Ivan' liberated Zemke's Stalag (where he was the SRO - senior ranking officer, among POW's), and tried to take Americans "POW" or as hostages, but I'm not surprised!

Much earlier in Zemke's time-in-theatre, Zemke was a instructor to the Russians on the earlier P47's that were part of the Lend Lease program. Those particular P47's were the razorback, three-bladed versions.

I never understood the name Zemke put on his aircraft (it was in Russian), but besides meaning "friend" (in part), it was also supposed to be a warning! To the damm Russians Zemke never, ever trusted! Not to mess with him or shoot at him when his back was turned

Even in the late eighties/early nineties when i saw him, Zemke held Russians in low regard - not that I blamed him! ACTUALLY, I thought any so-called libbs or dumbazzes who thought they knew better about Yankee-rooskie relations could learn a lot listening to Zemke! The man was still very lucid and quite sharp.

Plinker, where are those pics from? Great pics.

Does the USAF museum at Wright-Patterson have an outdoor section?

Also, I was aware the Hellcat was the real scurge in the Pacific!! Much more so than any version of the Zero/Zeke, or even the Corsair.

There are some great stories in my grandfather's diary, which I'm preparing for possible publication, about the uneasy sense of fear they felt being liberated by the Russians. One of my favorite is that the Russians put on a traditional Russian dance show when they liberated them. Around the stage as they did their Cossack dances were men with machine guns pointed at the POWs. One of my grandfather's friends turned to him and said "Pax, why aren't you clapping? Can't you see they have machine guns pointed at us?" To which my grandfather replied "It isn't any good!"

Just finished this book, bought it the day this thread started. I really enjoyed it.

One of the most vivid images was at the end, when he sees a German pilot bail out of a plane that a P-51 has shot down. The Mustang pilot miscalculated speed and was too close behind and the German pilot fell right into his prop.

The Mustang made it home. Awful to imagine what must have happened in the air.

Will have to get this.. the Bolt was a great aircraft but I won't go as far to say it was the "best of the piston's"

After reading Thunderbolt! I had to order "Zemke's Wolfpack". What a great story and man. finished it last night. Now I'm looking for "Zemke's Stalag".

I think my grandfather had that book. IIRC it's on my dad's bookshelf now, heavily annotated by grandpa.

I read the story of Robert Johnson as a kid when my dad was stationed in England from 63 to 66...It was about 1965....

from that book along with several others, such as books about the 56th Fighter Group, and other stuff about the P 47, plus being able to go to Duxford when they were stationed most of the time in their time in England...

the P47 became my favorite American Fighter... and has remained so..

at the same time, the B 17 became my favorite bomber of the time, and my favorite bomb group became the 303rd Bomb Group, not only because of their history and combat record, but I also went to school on the base that they were stationed at during the war RAF Molesworth..

me and friends use to get our bikes on the old Airfield.. It wasn't being used, so no one really stopped us...

it was fantastic riding around on the same concrete that those B17s flew off of 20 year before...

and lord knows did our imaginations soar on those fields...

a dump on base still was crowded with B 17 parts from the War, as Molesworth was pretty much decommissioned right after the war was over... but under NATO it was kept where it could be made operational in about 48 hours if needed..