(Inspired from a thread in Big Game Rifles)

There is no doubt that there are places where animals are much easier to kill than others, not only geographically, but biologically. Most of my experience is with whitetails, so I will use them as an example. I have "hunted" in places where the seem down-right stupid and others where they won't even stand for a light at night, much less move during daylight.

Do you believe the wariness exhibited in some areas is entirely due to pressure or that some animals, in some areas, are just "smarter" than others? Depredation? Local evolution?

Too many years of spotlighting and running them with dogs in this region seems to make them more wary.I've never seen a mature buck at a feeder.West Texas is all together different.

the ones in my brothers back yard are way easier to kill than the ones at the ranch.i think deer that live near humans, become use to them and are less wary.
my brother shot one of those back yard deer in the leg with his bow, instead of running off it walked up to us like it was looking for help. john shot it again .
oh he shoots traditional and his arrow slipped off the rest when he shot.

Good thread.

I think pressure is part of it, especially when they are always hunted in the same way. Change the way they are hunted, sometimes a little, some a lot, and the "smarts" diminish.

Depredation goes along the same lines.

Of course, local evolution might be a factor, as there are some places where they just seem...smarter. Often those areas are heavily hunted, with high levels of predation (whether human, human-induced, or natural), and high levels of competition for scarce resources.

Predatation whether Man or Animals makes deer more wary than other that live without fear of being something next dinner

Pressure.

Recently I was involved on a wind farm on the Kennedy Ranch, near Kingsville, Tx (it's the size of a county in most states). It was routine for bucks to feed right next to where men were working - during broad daylight. Nilgai as well, we'd see 'em all the time. Even the 'yotes were "dumb".

Not a month after finishing that project, we started another in the same area, but without the protection that the private ranch offered. It was the standard stands, 'n' feeders everywhere. We'd see tracks, and catch a glimpse of critters in headlights, but not once did I see deer feeding during daylight.

Nocturnal feeding/habbits have happened for a reason.

Wouldn't generations of animals that were "pressured" cause them to evolve into something different than those not?

Pat,I've come to believe that the genetics that make for trophy size antlers also make for more intelligence ,or wariness.This is what got me started thinking that way :



I killed this buck in 1999.In '95 or'96 [I've never figured out which] I had gone down early one afternoon to my hunting pasture and was hid back under a big post oak with drooping limbs that made for an excellent blind.It was about 60 yards from a hog trap that I kept baited with corn.It was right next to a creek that was heavy timbered.

Before long,there were five bucks in front of me and no does.There was one spike and three pretty common bucks.Back in the brush behind the trap,I could see another buck.He had a big ten point frame with some trash on it , but it was obvious he was a long yearling.

He never came out in the open with the other bucks even though I watched them for over an hour.I never saw him again though I hunted that pasture exclusively and it's only a mile from where I lived at the time.

Then,in '99,I started seeing signs of a big deer using the mesquite flat across the creek from the place where the hog trap had been.I watched that flat morning and evening from Wed. thru Sun. evening , when he came walking across it like an old plowhorse.

I'm sure the two bucks were one and the same.I'm also sure that the young deer I saw did not come by his wariness from experience.

That got me to watching for this trait and I can't say it holds up in every instance-one of my hunters in his last year on the lease killed a young,dumb,buck with 15 points which almost climbed in the blind with him - but I believe genetics are responsible WHEN a young good buck acts like an old good buck.

I'm not so sure that becoming nocturnal isn't a step in that direction (or the final result).

A whitetail wouldn't have to grow a fifth-leg to have "evolved".

Seems to me there is some genetic variation in animal behavior. In any population there will be some that are more wary than others. The behavior can be modified through experience, i.e. they see a human and are just missed by a shot, or they are standing next to another deer that gets shot.

I'd always read that wild turkeys are supposed to be extremely wary. When I shot a hen two years ago, there were three other hens nearby. They flew at the shot, landed, and ran back to the one I'd shot to see what was wrong with it. I guess I could have doubled on another one.

A buck this past year needed to be culled, as it was older and had a poor rack. But his habit was to walk out, look around, and quickly disappear. Most folks take a while looking at a deer before they decide to cull it, and this one had survived by not sticking around long enough to give anyone the chance. Since I'd seen no trophy bucks worth taking, I decided to bust him the next time he appeared, and he was down a few seconds after I saw him, the next time.

I also always think of that famous buck in Utah, Popeye, who died of old age on public land despite hundreds, maybe thousands of people coveting his huge nontypical rack. He just knew how to avoid hunters.

The Waggoner Pasture is the largest piece of privatly owned land under one fence in Texas.Back toward the middle of the pasture are trophy bucks that stand and watch you drive by in a pickup.

They have never seen a deer killed,never been shot at , and most have never seen a human on foot.

Like anything ever born, hatched, or let, individual traits are unique. The question becomes, is it a repeatable trait, or a random happening. I don't pretend to know the answer.

Ever seen a litter with a half dozen "come-and-greet-ya pups", and one that keeps it's distance? How 'bout a family of six siblings, five of which wouldn't say "crap", if they had a mouthful, and then there's me?

Pressure and type of pressure. Deer that are very wary of road hunting can seem when properly still hunted if the have little exposure to it. I believe that Jim Shockey did an article several years ago called Super Deer vs Stupor Deer which covered this topic, I cannot recall what magazine it was in. GRF

I tend to agree, because very seldom does a game animal encounter a threat from a human until they're actually killed.

That brings up the question, was this "instinct" created by evolution of learned behavior from past generations, or are the superior animals just instinctively more wary of everything?

I realize we're talking natural selection. It seems that the areas with more of the specific animal have dumber animals also, indicating that it takes less instint (?) to survive.

I have access to an area that has a mixture of whitetails, and mulies - and has zero pressure; I mean none. It's several square miles, and bordered by lands that do get pressured. The deer have learned where the non-pressured area is, and stay there. You can see 'em all day long in the protected area.

I can also take you to a small hunk of land owned by 3M, that is off limits to hunting. It's routine to see critters feeding in broad daylight during the nine-day Wisconsin gun deer season. Any direction from that refuge you'll see hunters perched in trees - but not a single deer (unless "bumped" off their daytime beds).

Like all warm blooded animal, deer communicate in their own way.

My main hunting pard guided down on the King Ranch for several years.Even guided JB one time.

He says the deer are conditioned to allow spot and stalk type hunting which most of their high-dollar clients wanted.They develop what he calls a "bow and arrow" mentality.Their comfort range is about 80 yards.

Beyond that,they watch you approach.Somewhere inside that , they start to get nervous,but if they run off and go out of sight , you can approach them again.

The guides use this behaviour to sort of cull out the buck they want for the client.The kill is made once the buck is separated from any other deer.

When culling does,only single does are killed.The deer NEVER see another deer killed by a human.At least that's the goal.

Chalk one up for the humans - 'cause that is brilliant. (behavior, not genetics).

I think it is local pressure, or lack there of, and the biggest percentage of the response programed by their mother's rearing. Add close call or two in the adolescent years and the ones that get by are a different critter.

Learned response. Deer season here is very short compared to many other places across the country and in their reaction to humans changes that short time. Stands to reason the more pressure the longer stronger that reaction would be.

Good example is loss of human fear critters have in National Parks.

Oh sure, blame it on the mothers. >grin<

I think it's a little more than that though, and here's an example of why. I have a friend who's family owns a large ranch. The only thing ever hunted there are birds, and there is a lot of human/dog presence, along with plenty shooting. There are lots of deer there, both whitetails and mule deer, and when you jump them...they just stand there. They may run a little way, but then they just stop and walk away. Why would these animals react differently tham those in areas where they are actually killed? The entrusion by humans into their territory is, if anything, worse than what deer hunters do.

Funny how they tend to figure out where those places are .

IMO, hunting pressure, the amount of, when and where they experience it accounts for the lion's share of their wariness. I wouldn't discount some genetic variation in individual IQ points either, but I believe hunting pressure dictates most of it.

I think wild game behaviour is a combination of genetics (size, intelligence, rack) and local conditions.

Example: Queen Charlotte Islands - 1980. We were logging a virgin watershed. The fishing was...amazing. The hunting was phenomonal as well. Huge black bears and a vast number of small, virtually tame deer. We could high lead log within 100 feet of these deer and they would have their heads down browsing. This was local conditions as far as the deer behaviour. You could walk up to within about 10 feet of them before they got jumpy.

Example: There is a huge Mule Deer buck I have been after for several years now near here. I see the tracks, I have caught glimpses of him, but I can't get him. He is large and smart, smart, smart. Over time out of the deer around him I could have taken a number, they just don't seem to get it. Genetics and conditions because there is some pressure in this area.

Because they aren't killed. It is not so much the intrusion. It is when the intrusion has deadly intent. They catch on, or adapt fast.

How do they know about getting killed if they haven't been?

We're in agreement.



The only thing I'm uncertain of, is if moving to nocturnal habbits is simply behavioral, hereditary, or a blend.

Pat...my two cents...if they are killed cleanly, not chased, wounded, busted etc...they continue to use the same old haunts...if they are molested, they get what folks call "wary"...

It's all dependant on hunting pressure. The wild deer in the "no kill" zone around Old forge NY will come over and eat crackers out of your hand if they see you hold one out. You can do this either on foot or just pull over and stick a cracker out the car window. They're literally as tame as zoo animals but are actually completely wild, free ranging deer. On the other hand, the deer on hard hunted public ground in NY's Southern zone are some of the spookiest you'll find anywhere. These area's get pounded like alot of folks who've only hunted private ground can't even imagine. I've hunted these places quite a bit and you're doing good if you can put 100 yards between yourself and another hunter on opening weekend. Most of the guys who hunt these places know that getting a shot at any deer can be tough so it's pretty much "if it's brown it's down". The deer that live there have to be on their toes in order to survive their first season.

I think shooting does changes deer habits and wariness quicker than anything, including shooting bucks.
Shoot a doe out from her young ones or young one from it's mother and they put two and two together and start to act differently. A wounded deer that lives becomes warier.
Come next year those does or young one that are now mothers react differently to human presence. Their young pic up on these reactions to circumstances without having experienced what caused the behavior.

I used to hunt public ground any time I figured I needed a little humbling.

It's fun, and rewarding to scout an animal and bag it on private land - and I've been blessed with ample opportunities to do just that. It's a testament to being a hunter (or lucky), if you can fill a tag on land that is pressured hard.

Spend a lot of time on a large ranch where basically no hunting is allowed. During hunting season Mule deer passing through become extremely wary. Mule deer that reside there year round will stand and let you drive within 50 yards or less.
I donno, just my observations over the years.

All warm blooded animals have a Sixth Sense. It's just that humans don't use theirs much anymore. Wild animals use all six senses every day to survive or die. They choose when to do both.
Humans rely on others to make the choice for them and that is why the sixth sense has become dull.

don't know about deer becoming more wary under hunting pressure, it may well be true.
I DO know that they follow the calendar though. Day before opening of general gun season, they are everywhere. On opening day, you can't find one.
They all seem to go nocturnal as soon as the first rifle shot is heard.

When I decide it is time for getting meat. I will go afield and make some noise. Make my presense know to the animals. The one that chooses to, offers himself to my hand. This happens every time and they know what the noise means.

Take a can full of grain with ya huh....killing those tame geese at the city park again?

Deer learn lots of things over time that changes their behavior. One case in point. When we first got back enough deer to hunt everyone climbed trees to hunt. Does were not legal only forked bucks. For several years you could have danced an Irish jig up in a tree and the deer would pay you no mind. Then it got to be that does would come out into the openings looking up in the trees and you better not bat an eyelash. Bucks never seemed to catch on.
Now most every one has gone to box blinds either ground or elevated and deer never look up in trees anymore from my observations.
Deer will stare at a box but if you don't wave at them they relax after a little bit. Day may be coming when they will no longer come around a box.

Bingo ! And remember half of those fawns raised by mothers who saw one of their kin get shot are bucks.

I think VA has a good point about deer being hunted the "same way"in many areas. When I joined my lease in '81 I had never hunted deer. All the older members were giving me advise on best methods and locations. Found I was killing more deer than others when I made "mistakes" while using their methods.

The deer were used to hunters there being in certain spots at certain times so they avoided those areas. I was more sucessful by moving somewhat away from those spots and being there earlier or later than usual.

Sometimes just doing something "different" will improve your chances.

The best sheep guide I know never allows other sheep to see him before or after a shot if he can help it. After the shot he just waits behind cover until the other sheep have wandered off.
Contrast that to the maroons on TV (and some that aren't) who start jumping up and hollering as soon as they shoot, even if they are 600 yards away.

I've never been able to tolerate hunting or fishing with men who feel the need to whoop and holler when they connect with their quarry. Seems disrespectful to an extreme to me.

Accidentally pulled up close and stopped, on the ATV, something around 50 ft. Nice 8 pt. buck. I got the look from the buck, along with both hearing antenna turn directly at me. Just sat on the ATV. Got bit of wee tail flare also. I did not move, and sit there quietly.

In several seconds he relaxed. The buck was eating leaves off a small beech. Some he would bite off and spit out, some leaves he would chew. Sugar thing I think, carbs? I slowly reached down and shut off the ignition. Got the look again, and the antenna array, no tail flare at all. Several seconds went by, buck relaxed and continued eating.

Started the ATV, got the look and antenna again. Noticed only one ear turned my way, the other off to behind me, 90 degrees.The buck relaxed quicker. Turned the ignition off, All I got that time, was one ear arrayed my direction. I assume no look because my position had not changed . I do not know what a deer thinks or learns, but I sure concentrate for a way to turn a situation my advantage when hunting them.

Decided to play with the buck a bit. Knuckle thumped gas tank cover. Got the look and antenna array, no tail flare. Got the stare, then relaxed again in short seconds.

Don't remember sequence for sure, but a simulation follows: Tried about six different sounds I could make on the ATV, without changing my silhouette. The first 2 or 3 sounds,got a look and antenna array. Buck goes back to his leaf selection routine. After a bit of that, all I got from the buck was a brief ear flick. Assume he was monitoring my location.

Edit to add, for what it is worth, correcting typos also:
Buck continued on with his leaf chewing. I sit there trying to think of something that would get his attention and a typical close reaction of mature deer. Happened to look downward, and there was a short, dry stick about the size of your finger laying in the trail, within reach. I slowly leaned over (petrified speed), watching the buck. Slowly moved upright, then cracked the stick. Instantly at the sound, the buck was gone.

Anyone ever use a horse or decoy of some kind to get or bring within kill range.

I think it is a predator/prey instinct embedded, that allows the particular species adaptability to learn how to survive. A combination of inherent genetics to adapt successfully to a particular environment. Over genetic generations, the probability to adapt should increase, less any catastrophic change in the environment.

We also use the same predator/prey genetics when working with livestock, pets, varmints, etc. The learning comes from being successful or not. Some young learn from parent, some don't. Does not mean their genetic adaptability bad or good, just means they weren't successful for that situation.

Man, I had a lot of bad typos in this, .

I've been watching deer on my land for quite awhile.
I killed the first deer on my property using a flintlock, and wearing jeans and flannel after running a chainsaw all day. I reeked of gas,bar oil and sweat. With no pressure, they were easy to hunt.
Now, by muzzleloader season they are usually wary and I need to exercise scent control and be in head to toe camo with no visible skin showing. By the time modern firearms season comes in, I have 1-2 days to connect before every deer goes 100% nocturnal (based on hundreds of game camera photos over 3 years in the same spot). I will not see any deer in daytime (even in photos) until sometime in April when they'll re-emerge to enjoy the garden and legume crops.

+1 on Poodles comments.
The area we hunt deer, they get used to the loggers (noise, smell, movement,road traffic) during the summer. Come October they (and elk) seem to feed in those areas especially ridge tops where they have a clear view in most directions in morning and evening. Daytime it is into the bottom for a nap and water at creeks, seeps.

They learn our patterns just like we TRY to learn theirs. Yesterday afternoon I was coming home at about 1500 from our hunting club after doing some testing of new loads and a mile or so down the road saw a nice 8 point. Half way home there is a power line ROW where someone has planted a food plot and there were already three deer on it. Wouldn't have seen that so early in the day a couple of weeks ago.

Years ago I read an article written by a bow hunter who always hunted by stalk. He insisted that deer were only fearful of preditors(sp). That preditors gave off particular odors that deer could detect and would flee from.

He claimed that he stopped all meat consumption in his diet during the Spring of each year and ate only vegetables and cooked only with vegetable oils. This way he could hunt without concern for wind direction or noise and make close shots on his quarry. Claimed great success by this method.

Not sure how I feel about those claims but maybe theres something there.

I am pretty sure some tree hugger sends our whitetail copies of our hunting seasons.
For weeks before the season, you can watch any number of bucks wandering around during daylight.
Soon as the season opens, NADA!
We can't hunt at night, nor with dogs, so when you're on your way home AFTER dark, or walking the dog....well you get the picture.

I ever catch that tree huggin' pecker.....


Later...

That is funny. Yea, the game knows Akfker is gonna gitem so they just offer up their souls to him- no sense in running.

Same in Polk co just east of you.

Pat, I was amazed 40 yrs ago hunting squirrels in Piney Creek bottom. When there had been a die-off and they were scarce you might see one off through the timber a way. Sneak in and have a seat against a trunk and wait 30 min. and it would shoot out a limb and jump, hauling azz after hitting the ground or through the trees. They get wary when scarce, as coyotes are in West Texas now. Only the smartest are still alive after this drought has decimated the rabbit and quail populations.

Where I started hunting at last season, the older deer have gotten
really wary of the boxes. They'll just stick part of their head out in the clear
and scope out the box, if they make out your silhouette, they'll just hit reverse
and back right up. And most of the blinds have been in the same spots for way
too many years - the crossings have moved to almost half way between the boxes,
too far to shoot from either in a lot of cases. Makes it interesting

I've been almost lynched a couple of times, warning people about mature whitetails and whisker buscuits. I don't even try anymore. Ultimately they always come back with a sad "You told me so." story.

yeah, I read that too, tried for a week before mule deer hunting, and it didn't work

Many times in my life I have contemplated the wide range in difference in difficulty in killing a deer in normal east Texas timber country and that in central, south or west Texas. I figured it was 5-10 times harder there. Most other country has areas you can sit and glass and stalk to within 300 yds for a shot. In the forest, 70 yds can be a long shot and deer are very difficult to get that close to, unless on a very restricted property with blinds and feeders.

PS Brush country in south Texas can be impenetrable unless you belly crawl real good, but there, elevated stands or senderos allow long range interdiction of moving deer.

Mmmm...yep. Several times the past couple years I wanted to bust a doe, but there was a nice young buck there that had future potential, and I didn't want the buck to associate noise/blood smells with the area. Only time will tell if it makes a difference

If one includes fish in this topic, I have noticed, when I was seriously bass fishing, that a hot new lure would come along and be the hot ticket for a given area or lake. Then a couple years later something else was suddenly the hot lure. I always suspected that lures get "hot" when soemthing new comes along, that is genetically attractive to some % of the population. After that group is either caught and eaten, or caught and learns to avoid the lures in question, the success rate on that lure declines. That's my theory, anyhow

Yea, I've eaten chlorophyll till I had the runs for weeks before archery elk and hunted without a speck of leather on me, clean clothes, bathed and soaked in scent killer, bow and arrows sprayed down, underwear soaked in scent k. and doused with , baking soda, gargled with baking soda and then h2o2, Shower cap over hair and ears, clean cap, clean knife and azz---you better be downwind. I have had young bucks sniff around a little while downwind and put up with it. I wish I knew whether the ion machine seen on a tv show really works.

I think it's a combo...pressure and genetics. Every place I hunt has pretty high pressure. I think that effects most deer especially later in the season.

I think some individuals are just wound tighter as well... In one place I hunted there was a doe that every time I saw her she was walking on egg shells, sniffing, looking, moving slow, even when the rest of the group of does she was with were care free...I only saw her with other deer a couple of times, most of the time she was by herself. She always looked nervous. I didn't see her nearly as much as the other does. It makes sense that her offspring would be like her, be it genetics or learned behavior.

I seen many deer approach a dead deer. Have never figured it out. I have seen four bucks gore and stomp bucks that I've shot, until I've run them off, 3 were firearm kills, one an archery kill. Two came back and watched from a distance while field dressing, kept a close eye on them. I watched a mature doe stomp and strike another mature doe that was archery kill. Deer went down out of sight. Heard the ruckus before having downed deer and other in view. When I could see, it appeared the doe stomping, grunting, and screaming ( best description I can give for sound, lot higher pitched than a bleat). Don't recall hearing a deer ever making that sound before or after. I thought the doe doing the stomping was berserk. Maybe she was, just don't know. She did run off when I walked steadily at her. Some tell me it's some kind of dominance show. Not sure I buy into that, but might be one reason.

Have shot deer out of a herd, where other deer in the vicinity would come back and approach the downed deer. In human thought, it appears be some kind of curiosity thing. Once they are satisfied with whatever their brain tells them, some will leave entirely, and some will go on doing what they were doing before, without leaving the vicinity. Can't recall ever seeing any of these approach the downed deer twice. Have noticed those downwind of the dead deer appear more nervous than deer approaching upwind, and take longer to settle down. Is there such a thing as the 'smell' of death? Could it be odor of wounded flesh, or blood? Do dead deer release some kind of pheromone from their glands? Beats me what the answer is?

In this area where hunt, it seems if a female 3 generation herd, dominant doe, yearlings, and years young, given time to settle down will return and approach the downed doe. The other group members seem reluctant to abandon what appears to be matriarch leader. Some or one of them will approach completely to dead doe to smell the body, or watch what the other deer do, and imitate likewise. Human thought tells me their actions seems to be confusion, doubt, anxiety, a what do we do thing if you will. That bit of behavior here, can result in filling two meat tags, if you got enough patience and room for the additional meat. Our deer here do talk to each other vocally, but more muted and not as often as I've heard mule deer vocalize at times.

Many times I don't think a deer knows what it is going to do, until it takes the next step, .