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Posted By: bea175 Women in combat a terrible idea - 01/28/13
Kathleen Parker�s email address is kathleenpark  [email protected]  .
WASHINGTON � It must be true what they say about women � that they are smarter, stronger, wiser and wilier than your average Joe.
How else could one explain the magical thinking that apparently has prompted Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, to abandon all reason and lift the ban on women in direct combat?
Methinks the boys have been outmaneuvered.
This is a terrible idea for reasons too numerous to list in this space, which forces me to recommend my 2008 book, �Save the Males,� in which I devote a chapter to the issue. The most salient point happens to be a feminist argument: Women, because of their inferior physical capacities and greater vulnerabilities upon capture, have a diminished opportunity for survival.
More on this, but first let�s be clear. Arguments against women in direct combat have nothing to do with courage, skill, patriotism or dedication. Most women are equal to most men in all these categories, and are superior to men in many other areas, as our educational graduation rates at every level indicate. Women also tend to excel as sharpshooters and pilots.
But ground combat is one area in which women, through quirks of biology and human nature, are not equal to men � a difference that should be celebrated rather than rationalized as incorrect.
Remember, we�re not talking about female officers of a certain age pacing the hallways of the Pentagon when we speak of placing women in combat, though perhaps we should be. My favorite bumper sticker remains: �I�m out of estrogen and I have a gun.�
We�re potentially talking about 18-year-old girls, notwithstanding their �adult� designation under the law. (Parents know better.) At least 18-year-old males have the advantage of being gassed up on testosterone, the hormone that fuels not just sexual libido but, more to the point, aggression.
Now, hold the image of your 18-year-old daughter, neighbor, sister or girlfriend as you follow these facts, which somehow have been ignored in the advancement of a fallacy. The fallacy is that because men and women are equal under the law, they are equal in all endeavors and should have all access to the same opportunities. This is true except when the opportunity requires certain characteristics. Fact: Females have only half the upper-body strength as males � no small point in the field.
The argument that women�s front lines performance in Iraq and on de facto Afghanistan has proved concerns about combat roles unwarranted is false logic. Just because women in forward support companies can return fire when necessary � or die � doesn�t necessarily mean they are equal to men in combat.
Unbeknownst perhaps to many civilians, combat has a very specific meaning in the military. It has nothing to do with stepping on an IED or suffering the consequences of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It means AGGRESSIVELY ENGAGING AND ATTACKING the enemy with deliberate offensive action, with a high probability of face-to-face contact.
Every objective study has argued against women in direct combat for reasons that haven�t changed.
The threat to unit cohesion should require no elaboration. But let�s leave that obvious point to pedants and cross into enemy territory where somebody�s 18-year-old daughter has been captured. No one wants to imagine a son in these circumstances either, obviously, but women face special tortures. And, no, the rape of men has never held comparable appeal.
We can train our men to ignore the screams of their female comrades, but is this the society we want to create? And though some female veterans of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have endured remarkable suffering, their ability to withstand or survive violent circumstances is no rational argument for putting American girls and women in the hands of enemy men. It will kill us in the end.
Excellent article, but the die is cast and I'm glad I retired when I did.
Read a good description in a psychology article about the role of testosterone in the human body. The author was very succinct, "it produces one of two reactions to most situations � f*ck it or kill it�.

Maybe if we give the ladies hormone treatments it might help. Side effects of deep voices and hairy chests are probably acceptable side effects...
My niece is in an ROTC pipeline right now. She is top of her class in both academics and PT. Can out PT all other males in her class. She is very anxious for Airborne school and is geeked up over being allowed in combat.

But she is an extremely rare individual and may prefer women to men, which may have some reason behind her "drive".

Having said that I am still not a fan of the idea. Too much liability. Too much extra to worry about.
Does anyone remember Andy Kaufman? He was a comedian and actor in the 1970�s. To counter some of the more strident feminism going on at the time, he issued an open challenge to any woman to wrestle him and pin him.

Now I don�t know if some of those matches were staged or not and maybe he picked his opponents to eliminate the biggest ones, he was always trying to put one over on his audience, but no woman ever beat him. He was a mediocre physical specimen, not very tall or heavy and certainly not very muscular but not a single woman ever pinned him while he was able to pin every woman he wrestled. Again, I'll allow that the matches could have been completely phoney but he did wrestle a professional wrestler to prove how phoney those matches were and got his ass kicked pretty badly (almost got his neck broken for real), but that�s a different story.

Point being, if no woman could pin some runty little comedian, how in the world is a young woman going to fare against a healthy, strong and motivated enemy soldier?
"My name is Jose Jimenez."
Paul B.
Women in combat (not of NECESSITY!) ranks to me with abortion.

My pops was a Commander in the Navy.


He and my mom felt similarly, that women needed to stay home to "guard hearth and family" in time of war ......

My pops accurately pointed out that when the USA was kicking the living chitt outta the Krauts and Japs, neither of those countries DELIBERATELY sent their wimmins into combat!


Yeah both Germany and Japan had vigorous "morale" programs that used prostitutes, but their women were never used as regular front line troops.

This country is making another huge mistake. eek
Originally Posted by PJGunner
"My name is Jose Jimenez."


Kaufman was at times a PIA, and a hoot! wink
they can stop a boolit to....... fu-ck it. If they wanna play, let em' play.
Rubio is all for it

http://www.buzzfeed.com/johnstanton/marco-rubio-backs-women-in-combat-decision
Not only that, but men have been the fighters for hundreds of thousands of years. Women haven't.
I got one to to say to the girls who want combat--
Be carefull what you ask for-- you might get it--
This is another good argument against.

https://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/no-better-critics_698023.html
it's a done deal. all we're waiting for is for the generals/admirals to implement.

they'll be horror stories for sure once some women soldiers get taken and raped repeatedly, along with sexual torture, but that won't stop the "we are equal" decision.

i disagree with the new ruling, but it won't be changed.
Originally Posted by Jesse Jaymes
My niece is in an ROTC pipeline right now. She is top of her class in both academics and PT. Can out PT all other males in her class. She is very anxious for Airborne school and is geeked up over being allowed in combat.

But she is an extremely rare individual and may prefer women to men, which may have some reason behind her "drive".

Having said that I am still not a fan of the idea. Too much liability. Too much extra to worry about.


To of the class pt doesn't men schit when the gloves come off and its tine you're hand to hands you die or i die combat which is exactly what this article discusses.
Give them what they want and change the law to require them to register for Selective Service.
then guys must be pussies in her class if she can out PT them. Would like to see her do 100 push ups, not on her knees, 20 dead hang pull ups and hump- 70 lb pack up and down hills for 6 to 8 hours then do it the next day after 2 hrs of sleep during a heavy menstrual cycle.

PT'd in the military when I served with female college stud athletes . Sure they run ok but when it came to upper body strength and carrying heavy things long distances, with zero sleep and food they all failed.




Originally Posted by Jesse Jaymes
My niece is in an ROTC pipeline right now. She is top of her class in both academics and PT. Can out PT all other males in her class. She is very anxious for Airborne school and is geeked up over being allowed in combat.

But she is an extremely rare individual and may prefer women to men, which may have some reason behind her "drive".

Having said that I am still not a fan of the idea. Too much liability. Too much extra to worry about.
Originally Posted by ribka
then guys must be pussies in her class if she can out PT them. Would like to see her do 100 push ups, not on her knees, 20 dead hang pull ups and hump- 70 lb pack up and down hills for 6 to 8 hours then do it the next day after 2 hrs of sleep during a heavy menstrual cycle.

PT'd in the military when I served with female college stud athletes . Sure they run ok but when it came to upper body strength and carrying heavy things long distances, with zero sleep and food they all failed.




Originally Posted by Jesse Jaymes
My niece is in an ROTC pipeline right now. She is top of her class in both academics and PT. Can out PT all other males in her class. She is very anxious for Airborne school and is geeked up over being allowed in combat.

But she is an extremely rare individual and may prefer women to men, which may have some reason behind her "drive".

Having said that I am still not a fan of the idea. Too much liability. Too much extra to worry about.









About two weeks ago I watched cross fit gals running the Marine course on TV.
Most, but not all, made the grade.

The top winners looked to have some gas left to spare in their tank.
The top winners looked very tough�some in more ways than one�

I liked the ones who still looked like gals better�
can the cross fit gals lift and carry a 220 soldier on their backs?

Was it an obstacle course orb the actual PT test?

Did they max the USMC male standards or the lesser female standards? Did they run it in combat boots? How many dead hang pull ups did they perform?



How do they perform during a menstrual cycle?
I think everyone failed to read my closing statement.....said I am not a fan of it regardless of how well her PT scores were.
You "PT" guys are missing the point. REGARLDLESS of whether they can keep up, the introduction of females into an all-male environment brings a whole host of hormone-related problems, ostensibly destroying the warrior culture and the whole concept of human interaction since the dawn of time. If women were meant to do this, we would have figured this out ten thousand years ago and they would have been fighting side by side all along. They didn't for a reason, and no stroke of a pen is going to EVER change that.
Originally Posted by ribka
can the cross fit gals lift and carry a 220 soldier on their backs?

Was it an obstacle course orb the actual PT test?

Did they max the USMC male standards or the lesser female standards? Did they run it in combat boots? How many dead hang pull ups did they perform?



How do they perform during a menstrual cycle?





How in the hell would I know?

All I did was watch a half hour show that showed some very impressive women doing some very impressive stuff.

So I did a look-up.

It was a tough four day event.

Wednesday, July 11, 2012 was the first full day of competition for the men and women. Four scored events at the U.S. Marine base, Camp Pendleton.

�The first event of the 2012 Reebok CrossFit Games would be a swim, bike, run event at Camp Pendleton. The race starts with a 700-meter ocean swim with fins, followed by an 8-kilometer bike ride across undulating terrain and soft sand, and finishes with a 11.3-kilometer run across steep hills and more than 427 meters of elevation gain.

After about an hour of rest, athletes will complete the Camp Pendleton School of Infantry Obstacle Course.
They will race against each other head-to-head in a three-round bracketed tournament. This is the first time in CrossFit Games history that any event has been executed in bracketed heats.
This means four athletes will race against each other in heats. The top finisher from each heat moves on to the next round of the obstacle course, competing next to the other heat winners and four wildcard athletes. These are the four best times of all the athletes who didn�t win their heats in the first round. The winners of the four heats in the second round then move onto the final round for the win.�


Could these gals lift and carry a 220 soldier on their backs?

There was a short weight lifting segment on the show where the women were doing barbell cleans

They would do one clean every 30 seconds with heavier weight each rep until failure. Then finish with as many deadlifts with that weight as possible.

I think they said men start with about 205 pounds and the gals with 105.
I did not see any of the men�s competition, but I remember the top women were cleaning over 200 pounds. 235 was the best, I think.

I did not see, but my look-up found a final evening event on the last day.

That workout was three rounds for time of:
8 Medicine ball cleans (150/80lbs)
100-foot Medicine ball carry
7 Parallette handstand push-ups
100-foot Medicine ball carry


You have to remember these CrossFit ladies have been training and competing for years to reach this level.

A lower level than Cross Fit men but still higher than that required by the Marines.
Originally Posted by ConradCA
Not only that, but men have been the fighters for hundreds of thousands of years. Women haven't.


Might want to take a short trip over to your local 'hood', Conrad.

And, uhh, how many years we been at it?
The first and primary reason to keep girls out of combat units is esprit de corps. Moral and the toughness of these units is based on a dynamic which woman destroy. Even if a women could compete phyically its a stupid idea for this reason alone.

Secondly minimum physical standards are just that. To give a somewhat dated example. When I was active the passing score for the PT test was 220. but in my division every infantry company had a gold Streamer for its guidon whick meant that 90% of the company scored 270 or better. (when you consider that nearly 10% would likely be on profile for some injury or on leave) meaning that every soldier could score the 270.. frankly nearly every soldier could do a max score.

Whats more the difficult physical test for a combat infantryman isn't running, pushups or carrying a buddy through an obstacale course. Its the wear and tear that body armor,90 lbs of gear, heat, bruises, bumps, rubs take over the course of a career. Every see a first sargent or CSM.. they are 35-45 years old and look 55-65. Its a hard abusive life, many (most) men can't do it and the % of women who can are far less. Even if they didn't destroy the Espirt de corps its not practical to find the small precentage of women who can hack it. Heck its hard to find the men who can.

Sure you could test for physical performance before enlistment, but its really a poor way to judge the longterm physical performance of an individual. Or should we send women through basic/AIT and then make a determination of their toughness.
If she can out PT all the men in her class...
she is either an Amazon
or you need some men in that area.

If I want to win a football game, I ain't sending in the cheerleaders
She may be first in her class in PT, set at women standards. I doubt she'd be first if she was compared to male standards.

The Marine Corps has been trying to test the idea of women in the infantry. They're trying to get 90 canidates from its women officer program to complete the Infantry Course. So far, two have applied. One dropped out the first day and the other within two weeks. No other women have applied to the program.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ines-step-forward-for-infantry/?page=all
Almost all of them are now involved in combat in one way or another anyway. Most of the engagements come from being ambused on the road or on patrol. Lots of women in Iraq and Afghanistan have served with honor during firefights. I know of several in the MPs that were constantly tested in Iraq.

Do I think allowing a woman to carry an Infantry combat load is a thing - not really, and I think it will prove to be untenable with the massive loads these guys carry, but I really don't have any doubt that women can do well in everyday firefights.
When this was first posted, IE before this thread popped up, I was for this idea.

And then I did a bit of paying attention to folks other than my wife over a weekend and realized that both the females generally speaking are not up to it. And that the males could never generally control themselves either.

As such its a bad idea and I had to change my mind to come up with that.

But don't ever discount a single female as Casey and others have. They are NOT all the same.

I read somewhere that most women joining the armed forces can't even do 1 pull-up! People like that shouldn't even be allowed in. Oh, and those women in strength competitions -- don't you think they've been taking just a wee bit of steroids?
Nothing more than a total disaster in the making.
Ya think?I have seen a woman logging truck driver but never a woman in the brush or packing a chain saw around all day, why, there not built for it.

They let women in to the smoke jumper clan, the real smoke jumpers are over protective of the ones that were let in leaving them at risk for there lack of physical ability.Remember the Colorado fire where a bunch of smoke jumpers died because they couldn't get over the hill in time?

I can pick up or drag any man away from harm, women can't do the same, or very few.

Suicides are at an all time high in combat now, let's not increase the mortality from some joker trying to protect a woman that doesn't need to be there.

Make every politician serve in the forces, at least basic training to see the real difference between men and women and there physical capabilities under stress.

Jayco


When i think about the enemies America has faced .....

the Germans
Japs
Koreans
Vietnamese
some African countries
Cubans
other South Americans ......
various Indian tribes

and then muslum enemies .....

CHICAGO THUG is setting us up, (with the demoncrapic party) to get our azzes beat but good!

Till now America has had a tradition of winning our wars!

Methinks that's doomed to change.

If I went into battle, I want the meanest, strongest, and even [some] of the crudest men I've met protecting my back!

By the way, all the know-it-alls who think the military is the perfect social laboratory ...... I wonder how many of them have studied how our women were treated in WWII when they were POW's?

And later when the muslums captured some of our women in the middle east, whenever the enemy or capturs had the opportunity, it wasnt' hard to detect that our repatrioted women had been badly abused.

Is that only a "preview?"


Wimmins indeed destroy all that [espirit de corps] when its a man's world!
This is a humanity fail for the sake of political correctness.

Don't care about any other aspect. We, as men, are supposed to be protecting our women and children. Not throwing them into combat.
My comment in a similar thread.

In our modern society, women and men are supposed to be completely equal, regardless of how completely differently we were created.

(which makes me freakin batshit crazy btw)

NO woman ever created is physically equal to the most physically advanced males of our species, period, end of story.

No woman has ever played in the NFL, no woman has ever won a boxing title against a man, no woman has ever beat a man in an Olympic event, ever.

Yes, there are women that can out perform men.
These are exceptional women and sub par men.

You take the best male soldiers and team them up with the best women soldiers and the men are still going to have to scale down to accommodate the fairer sexed soldier.

PMS? Menstruation issues, moodiness and bloating?
GMAFB.

How can women in an infantry or special forces unit do anything but drag the unit down?
Not to mention the sexual tensions and advances.

It is inevitable that standards will be lowered to accommodate female soldiers desiring a position in special combat units.

Call me a total sexist pig, or what ever the Hell you want but that is the cold hard truth and a damn hard pill to swallow for the feminists and the warped out progressive mentality that is ruining this once great country.

_________________________
Not sure why we need to stop at military, prisons should be COED as well since women can obviously handle themselves.
Originally Posted by logcutter
Ya think?I have seen a woman logging truck driver but never a woman in the brush or packing a chain saw around all day, why, there not built for it.


Seperate from the issue at hand,... I personally know a woman that can and does run a chain saw all day, if thats what she needs to do. She generally stays on the saw all day and hookin timber while her husband runs a d-6 or skidder. Shes not a big gal either but she can put most men to shame when it comes to draggin timber or workin around thier mill.
Originally Posted by Salmonella
My comment in a similar thread.

In our modern society, women and men are supposed to be completely equal, regardless of how completely differently we were created.

(which makes me freakin batshit crazy btw)

NO woman ever created is physically equal to the most physically advanced males of our species, period, end of story.

No woman has ever played in the NFL, no woman has ever won a boxing title against a man, no woman has ever beat a man in an Olympic event, ever.

Yes, there are women that can out perform men.
These are exceptional women and sub par men.

You take the best male soldiers and team them up with the best women soldiers and the men are still going to have to scale down to accommodate the fairer sexed soldier.

PMS? Menstruation issues, moodiness and bloating?
GMAFB.

How can women in an infantry or special forces unit do anything but drag the unit down?
Not to mention the sexual tensions and advances.

It is inevitable that standards will be lowered to accommodate female soldiers desiring a position in special combat units.

Call me a total sexist pig, or what ever the Hell you want but that is the cold hard truth and a damn hard pill to swallow for the feminists and the warped out progressive mentality that is ruining this once great country.

_________________________


PMS, Bloating, moodiness, etc.... sounds like my boss exactly. And he ain't a she. grins.
I would think there is going to be alot of men dealing with "relationship" issues in tight knit quarters.

That is going to be a distraction.
Originally Posted by logcutter
Ya think?I have seen a woman logging truck driver but never a woman in the brush or packing a chain saw around all day, why, there not built for it.

They let women in to the smoke jumper clan, the real smoke jumpers are over protective of the ones that were let in leaving them at risk for there lack of physical ability.Remember the Colorado fire where a bunch of smoke jumpers died because they couldn't get over the hill in time?

I can pick up or drag any man away from harm, women can't do the same, or very few.

Suicides are at an all time high in combat now, let's not increase the mortality from some joker trying to protect a woman that doesn't need to be there.

Make every politician serve in the forces, at least basic training to see the real difference between men and women and there physical capabilities under stress.

Jayco



Gender had nothing to do with the fatalities that day. 8 of the 10 standard firefighting orders violated and 12 of 18 watch out situations ignored and extreme can do attitude contributed. They were in very steep terrain with over 6' fuel, a lot of that terrain is soft, like running uphill on the beach.
Aside from that, women explicitly assigned to combat is stupid. Incidental combat definitely happens. my niece volunteered for patrols when she did not have to according to her mos. She wanted to go out for experience and thought she would be an observer but actually helped search houses, manned the gun on the humvee and provided security for a medevac flight after an ambush. Since we took care of her daughter on her next deployment we made her promise shouldn't volunteer again.
Originally Posted by rost495
When this was first posted, IE before this thread popped up, I was for this idea.

And then I did a bit of paying attention to folks other than my wife over a weekend and realized that both the females generally speaking are not up to it. And that the males could never generally control themselves either.

As such its a bad idea and I had to change my mind to come up with that.

But don't ever discount a single female as Casey and others have. They are NOT all the same.



Jeff,

Don't get me wrong, I have all the respect for the women in the armed forces, as well as law enforcement but the fact is, I, personally would not bet my life on a woman (no matter her qualifications) to best a highly motivated man in hand to hand combate.
I wonder how many of these women will complain they were raped on the front line by our soldiers , just to be sent home once the hard combat starts?
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