Watched part of a movie yesterday I hadn't seen before titled "Canyon" basically just about being lost in the Grand Canyon.... and completely unprepared! Didn't see the first half of the movie, but from what I could gather a young married couple had planed (with guide) to camp at the bottom of the canyon, and somewhere along the way they got off route, mules ran off, guide bitten by snake and died leaving the couple who hadn't been paying any attention to where they were alone, with no gear, water, or food... and worse no sense of direction or where they were. Of course with tragic results.

I've never been to the Grand Canyon much less the bottom of it. But as beautiful as it is, I could not imagine a more in hospitable place to be lost in, or the words to describe the terrain.


Phil

Sounds like hollywood fiction... you could run out of water and be in a tight spot. Up/down/forward/back... it's pretty easy figuring going back and up will get you out.

the snake kill is to obvious.

Kent

Or going down will get you to water. And rafters passing by several times a day will offer rescue

And then there's the Indian tribe that lives down there.

Ain't been but I hear the Grand Canyon is a big place.

About the saddest story I've read of the place was a young man hiking down in a remote area got off of the trail and, getting low on water on a hot day, opted to continue on downhill rather than backtrack uphill to find the trail.

Following a ravine, he came to a series of ledges where, probably driven by thirst, he made the decision to drop down even though climbing back up would be difficult or impossible.

Finally he came to a ledge with an unsurvivable drop and was unable to go back up the ravine he was in. They found his body still sitting on that shelf, he had had the time to write a farewell letter to his family.

Birdwatcher

We have a video set by Nat Geographic on the history of our national parks. About the time the GC became a park, a newly wed couple decided to float it. They didn't have rafts at that time so they did it in a a wooden boat with sweeps. Both were experienced boaters and outdoorsmen. Weeks later, when they didn't arrive at their destination, the boat was found swirling in an eddy with a tie rope tangled in some submerged trees. The couple still haven't been found.

My all-time favorite tale of woe (true!) is about the young farts who rode their motorcycles down there (a no-no unto the nth degree!) one broiling summer day and were caught.

The park ranger took their spark plugs and wires � and told 'em that if their 'cycles were still down there at sunset, they'd be confiscated.

Can you imagine pushing those beasts for miles up that narrow trail just to keep the Park Service from having 'em?

I love it!

If you want a really interesting (though slightly morbid) read, try "Death in the Grand Canyon". It chronicles all those who have died since the GC was discovered. Lots of good stories, especially regarding those who have never been found.

there is more than one way to get to the bottom of the canyon, the trails within the park are only one way. I was told of another way, a few years ago, of a way the indians used to enter to get out of the snows up on top. It is there, if you know where to look. As well as another way. I have heard rumors for years of people living in the canyon that aren't suppose to be there, picking on campers and the like.

Backpacked some of the tail system in the Gand Canyon back in the 80's. Would be hard to run out of water and away from a easily recognisable trail.

Watched that Movie. Hollywood all the way!! After the Guide finally died,and was buried, the guy fell and broke His Leg.The Foot and Ankle was wedged in a Rock. the woman had to go back and dig up the Guide and get His Knife and cut the Guy`s Leg Off. Then, She built a Drag and tied Him on it and then had to fight off a bunch of wolves that tried to eat the Stump of the Guy`s Leg. Then, She tried to Choke the Guy to death cause he was Dying anyhow. and then a rescue helicopter landed and saved `em!!!!

The Havasupai

www.havasupai-nsn.gov

that was a recent case, he left his message in his cell phone (no coverage, just left a text)

Sycamore

1927, Glen and Bessie Hyde, a very through book about it, called "Sunk Without a Sound".

Sycamore

More than slightly morbid!

Every time I read it, I swear I'm never going back, too scary.

Of course I always go back.

Sycamore

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&tn=Death+in+Grand+Canyon

I'm presently at the Grand Canyon while I'm reading this thread. I took these pics today while hiking along the South Rim. Words cannot do it justice...I've never even seen a picture that can do it justice. Rest assured though, one could easily lose their life here...it happens to people every year. One could easily run out of water, and one could easily get lost. After a century of geological survey, only about 6% of The Canyon itself has been surveyed. 'Big', 'vast', 'expansive', 'dangerous'...these are all understatements regarding The Canyon. Underestimating this place is a dangerous thing, and that mistake has cost many people their lives.

The Grand Canyon is an enormous national park. 90% of those who visit, or more, go to either south rim via Tusyan or north rim out of Jacob's lake. There are well developed infrastructures and trails out of those two places; pretty hard to get lost out of there. IF you get a back country permit and enter at some other point, it is pretty easy to get lost. Most of the side canyons are not passable without rappeling equipment. I have been in several places and fell off a 35' waterfall (dry) trying to be cute and broke my tibia. There is a permanent belay there for getting up and down it. I went up without and fell on my first step going down without!

It gets REALLY hot in the bottom in the summer; 115� is not uncommon.

One of the lesser known but fantastic trails is the Nankoweep trail. It takes most people two days to get down this trail.

There is no indian tribe in the bottom of the grand canyon. That Havasupai reservation is in a side canyon that you can hike all the way out and come out on the colorado river but they are 6 or 7 miles upstream from the river. Only rafters would see you there.

Some friends of mine hiked down the Nankoweep to fish one year in late April. A freak snow storm blocked the trail up. They ran out of food and couldn't get the rafters to share or even get a message out to their families. The families presumed they had died and were pretty shook up. Eventually the Hatches (Ryan Hatch fame)who have a rafting company fed them and got a message out with a sat phone to their families. The Grand Canyon does not suffer fools gladly, to borrow a phrase from Paul.

'Tis that, y'betcha!

1,904 sq mi (4,931 sq km) � a lot more if it were ironed-out flat!
1,218,376 acres (43,077 hectares)
277 mi (446 km) from Lee's Ferry to Grand Wash Cliffs
about 5,000 ft (1,524 m) deep at Grand Canyon Village � down to 6,000 ft (1,829 m) elsewhere
10 mi (16 km) wide at Grand Canyon Village � 18 mi (29 km) wide in places

BIG! any way y' wanna cut it!

Last scene in this movie (as to size of the canyon) was that of the rescue, as if the camera was pointed straight down on the rescue scene from a second chopper above it all... then it gradually kept panning out as if that chopper was rising, and rising, and rising straight up to some unbelievable altitude, with everything below just becoming minuscule in size, and still no view of the sides of the canyon! Trick photography, most likely but still thought it was pretty immense!


Phil

Above a gap that's 10�18 miles wide, what need would there be for "trick photography?" What angle of view would be necessary, y'reckon, to include the sides of that canyon from a thousand to two thousand feet above it? Just a moderately narrow-angle, long-focus lens would leave the sides of the canyon outside the frame � and would require no trickery whatever.

You live within a 6 hour drive of it and have never been?
Unphuckingbelievable!

Been to half a dozen countries, and half or better of the states at one time or the other! Can't see it all...

Phil

One cannot begin to comprehend the enormity until one stands at the edge.

In the first picture I posted earlier in the thread, there's a plateau in the bottom of the picture. It's about 4000 vertical feet down to that plateau from the rim. If you hiked out to the edge of that plateau and looked over the edge...it's still another 1000 vertical feet down to the river. The place is absolutely breathtaking. One who experiences it firsthand is simply awed by its magnitude.

My friend Roy S and his wife, Ann, had spent some of their honeymoon at the Grand Canyon. The evening when they mentioned it to us (in Iowa), Carol Anne and I had never been near it. Carol Anne asked what they thought of it.

"Oh!" Ann S said. "It's nothing in the world but just a big hole in the ground!"

But she really lit-up when she told us about staying where Jack and Jacquie Kennedy had stayed on their honeymoon.

Different strokes thrill different folks.

I spent six years living at the Canyon working for the NPS, Museum of N AZ and Grand Canyon Airlines and literally months hiking the inner canyon. I met my wife down in the canyon and we still try to do an inner canyon hike each winter.

It is one of the seven wonders of the world for very good reasons.

The missus and I got as close as Tuba City one night a few winters back, after taking in Canyon de Chelly and Monument Valley. We were supposed to be at the South Rim at first light but there was a blizzard coming in before morning and it was pretty certain we would have been snowed in.

Had to be back for work so we headed back down 89, ate breakfast in Flagstaff. Never have made it back out that way yet.

Birdwatcher

The Canyon is a dangerous place. The maintained trails are much more traveled and, thus, a bit more safe if you get into trouble. My friends and I try to do the canyon at least once a year. This last year we went 'backcountry' and didn't see a soul until we intersected a maintained trail.

The beauty is breathtaking and it is a place that holds a special place in my heart. Before I hiked the canyon, I had read about the stories of those who perished or were lost and I always thought, just head down to the river...downhill and you will have water and eventual help. Having hiked the canyon, I know this to be a lie. If lost and off trail, you could see and hear the Colorado, but have no accessible route to it. I cannot imagine being in view of salvation and not having an access route to it but that is the case in the Canyon.

If you haven't done it, do it! It is truly something amazing to wake in the morning and peek out your tent and see the sunrise and the colors on the canyon walls as you listen to the roar of the rapids paces from your tent.

It is also amazing to see the amount of people who travel down into the canyon without any water or equipment to deal with the Canyon.

On our last trip, our group was coming out and the nearest water supply was 6 miles away and thousands of vertical feet down but we met "hikers" who "knew what they were doing" traveling in shorts, without water, provisions, or equipment down into the Canyon in March.

Stupidity makes it ever more dangerous!

Swimming the river, accidentally or on purpose, is another way people meet their end in the Grand Canyon.

The speed of the river, especially near the rapids, and the cold, do in a swimmer almost every year.

Sycamore

I haven't been down there. Tell me � is there enough silt in that water to fill-up an accidental swimmer's clothes? If so, that'd really make fast water deadly in a New York nanosecond!

Since 1963, only when the Paria or the Little Colorado are running. Otherwise cold and clear. Probably not super-silty for long either, a week or two for the Paria, maybe a month or two for the Little C.

Cold (48-50 degrees) saps the strength in about 5 minutes, reportedly.

Sycamore

379 of those dead are from Plane accidents.

No recorded deaths by Rattlesnake bites either...some guy may have been scared to death (heart attack) in the the 1922's.

At my age and in my far-gone condition, any temperature below about 80� has me shivering. I'm sure that I wouldn't last long at 48�50�. Weak as I am, I'd probably be long gone a long time before I'd been in that water for five minutes.

Just thinking about it makes me hanker for a mug of hot chocolate. Think I'll go gin one up right now!

Personally known two that had a limb ruined from rattle snake bite. One a withered hand, the other will forever walk with crutches.
Not fatal does not necessarily mean no permanent damage.
Have only been in the lower canyon not far upstream from Lake Mead, there was no shortage of rattlesnakes there. We didn't go for walks at night.

Been to, in, through, up and down the canyon many times in the past 50 years - an unimagineable, magnificent and - for fools - dangerous place. Among the several good posts here, those by dennisinaz and Jcubed especially are on the mark, very good info, and interesting. Thanks, guys.

To add...even very experienced hikers can get into trouble quick in the canyon. I was with some friends and the stretch we were on had no water and it was unseasonably warm. We arrived at where most of the group "thought" the spring should be and when it couldn't be found some interesting ideas were hatched due to low water for the group due to a medical condition. One person decided the spring was down a wash...took a while to covince them to sit down, breathe, and look at the map.

Once I looked, it turned out the spring was above us by 900 vertical feet. We looked close but were off the vertical component.

The canyon is an amazing place but one must always respect it.

cover that Grand Canyon with a few feet of snow and me and my 800RMK will cover near every inch of it!

Google Streetview has come to a couple of the Grand Canyon Trails...hopefully this link works. Might not work well on a slow computer or connection. Near the top of the South Kaibab trail...

Google Maps

I did the Grandview trail in snow (ice). I was glad for the $10 in-step crampons I bought at the GC general store. What's weird about the canyon is it can be snowy on top and in the 70s near the river.

Did you go all the way to the river? Stay at the campground?

Details man!

It was during a spring break geology field trip in college, it was just an overnighter. Stayed at Horseshoe Mesa. It snowed on us near the top and rained at camp. Meanwhile, people coming up from the bottom were telling us it was 70 degrees down there. Have you been on the Grandview?
I haven't been to the bottom yet, my one other trip down there was also another overnighter at Indian Gardens, also in the snowy season

a friend of mine back in the 70's, who should have known better, decided to hike the i think bright angel trail in the summer with a boy scout canteen. It didn't work so good on the way out.
try airevac to a hospital in flag, nice big bill.
one of the personal ways i like the canyon is from the north side.
there is of course the paved road down from near fredonia to the north rim, but there is also a forest service road that runs to the west along the rim to a deadend and a point overlooking the canyon. It does not get the attention the paved road does, as most tourist are not aware of it. There are spots along the road to stop the vehicle hike up a short ridge, and bang, you are there.
Google rattlesnake canyon on the northwest side too.

Last trip we came out on the Grandview. Like you said ice up top and hot down below.

The old mining operations just below the Grandview cg are something to see. Those old times were tough.

Have you been on the Nankoweap or some of the other "goat" trails?

Not my photos:

Nankoweap photos




Kaibab.org

Went there for the first time last March. It will not be the last time.

Next time I'm finding krp and buying that SOB a beer!

Haven't been on that trail but it is on the list now. Thanks!

On a high-country fire in the Bitterroot goat rocks, I radioed for a water drop. The super brain down at the ranger station nixed it � "Get water from the lake a quarter-mile northwest of you."

Yeah � right!

That lake was over a thousand feet below where we were, beyond a sheer cliff. Getting down there would've taken at least a day or two. But of course a guy up there on the ground, looking down at that lake, couldn't tell anything to a higher GS with a map down in the valley.

When the guy had himself helicoptered up there to straighten me out, he (as he said later) almost cried when he saw what we were up against.

Never discount the eyes on the ground!

Today I did a South Rim to river, and back up to South Rim hike. I headed down the South Kaibab at 0530. I got my first view of the river when I was still about 2700 vertical feet above it, and I could hear it...! I got to the black bridge at 0830 and crossed the river. The black bridge looked to be about 80 feet sbove the water. The river's about 150 yards wide at this point. I looked at some Anasazi ruins that date back about a thousand years, then headed up Bright Angel Canyon to Phantom Ranch. Looked around the place and went in the canteen, then crossed Bright Angel Creek and headed back to the river. I crossed on the silver bridge, which appears to be about 50-60 feet above the water. It's not as big as the black bridge, and it was swinging as I crossed it at 0940. Got on the River Trail for a bit, then started climbing out on the Bright Angel. I got to Indian Garden at 1215. It was nice and cool there, with huge cottonwood trees. The Bright Angel is not as steep as the South Kaibab, but it's longer. I got back to the South Rim at 1500 this afternoon...came out at the Kolb Studio. The experience and the scenery was 'fantastic'...but that word is really an understatement.

Yes, but not lately. Was at the mouth of Nankoweap Creek about a month ago.

Sycamore

Antlers, cool, sounds like you had a great time. I bet that last 3 miles of the BA seemed much longer.
Sycamore, how did you get to the mouth of Nankoweap creek?

by boat...

That, sir, was a hike! Hope you enjoyed it!

Hummfp... can't believe you returned alive... figured you'd get lost, snake bit, amputate your pecker after getting it wedged between two pebbles, run out of water, open a vein to give your children enough moisture to make it out alive...

from the parking lot.

Glad you had a good time.

Kent

Yeah, well....I owe you man.

It was wunnerful.

With the fall we're having I'm about to become your neighbor - fair warning that!

Hurry up and you can sherpa all my gear in for my coues hunt... I'll load you up like the grapes of wrath...

Kent

Can you pick me up at the airport at 6:25 am?

I'll be the guy wearing hiking boots.

Hell ya! tomorrow's wed... I'll walk around the baggage claim yelling... Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike...

Kent

And you can grind elk meat tomorrow also...

What a boon you'll be.

Kent

offer to carry the deer, it weighs less than the binoculars!

Sycamore

Immensely brother...!

The experience was so wonderful and the scenery was so spectacular that I really didn't think about it much during the trek. Afterwards though...my body let me know that it was tired and beat up...!

October is a great time for this hike. (not really a hike, more like a physiological insult to the body )

I see people trying it in the summer, and wonder how many of them realize how close they are coming to some pretty bad outcomes.

On the flip side, I met a 50 yr old man and his 25 yr old son about .75 miles from the river in September. They were from MN, they had plenty of water, some food, and a first aid kit for blisters, etc. They were prepared, and enjoying themselves.

Sycamore

p/s when I hit the top, I like to go into the Bright Angel Lodge, to the bar, and get a Gin and Tonic on crushed ice. (only one though!)

I haven't been to the bottom of the main canyon in over 30 years. May have to go again soon as my knees are worn about out.

Have been in Marble canyon fishing quite a few times. I wade out to about waist deep and fish in shorts. I can usually stay about 15 minutes at a time before I have to warm up. The rafters going by in their dry suits think I am nuts! Had one group come by and pull up for lunch where I was fishing. They were in one of the big rafts that has an outboard- probably 12-15 people on the boat- all from Boston!

They refused to believe that I could catch a fish in that water- so I obliged them and pulled out a 16" fat rainbow. I even offered to cook it for them but they wanted nothing to do with it. The raft guide fed me and gave me a sack full of lunch meat and bread-sure was nice after a week of eating trout and ramen noodles!

Hiked into Havasupai a few times the last few years- not as much vertical but still 10 long miles. It's worth the hike as well.

I read yesterday in a backpacking magazine that in 2012 alone, 12 different people died in the Grand Canyon.

Gotta be prepared, in decent shape, and realize the dangers.

L.W.

It's a beautiful place, no doubt about it. I've only seen it from the highway, and the flight into Vegas, though. I had my elderly mother with me, and my knees aren't in good shape,either (thanks 82nd Abn. Div.) We came in early morning from Page, by way of Cameron, and a stop at Lee's Ferry. I still don't know how and where they crossed the river there, but it must have been exciting as all dammit.
Rough country, but I can see the appeal. I really liked the country, rough or not.
We finished up that day with a drive through the Coconino to Flagstaff, and then to Sedona. Nice place, Arizona.

Is there normal animal life down in the canyon, higher than average?

I take it the wolves is bs?

Quite a few bighorn sheep, in several reaches of the river. Some coyotes, there have been lions, bobcats, and even a bear photographed. some mule deer in parts of Marble Canyon, once in a while you will see a turkey (blown in from the rim). Pretty good birdlife along the river, including tons of peregrine falcons. very diverse rattlesnake population, but not too many of them. South rim has mule deer and elk, north rim has mule deer.

Sycamore

Is it no hunting for all of the canyon?

Once you get your National Park hunting license your good to go.

Sycamore gives a very good description of the wildlife there. Thanks.

Have never seen nor heard of a wolf in the GC. Maybe way back in time.

Any of that area located within the NP would be no hunting. But, good hunting - north and south rim - right up to NP boundaries.

Do you know about what percentage of the GC is NP?

Don't know about percentage - never thought about it or looked - but any decent AZ map will show the NP boundaries.

If hunting in that area is a wish for you, I would go for it. Has been years since I lived in/hunted AZ, but the biggest mule deer (monster big) I ever bagged was in the Kaibab (north rim) and one of the biggest bull elk was way north of the road between Flag and the Canyon - up toward the south rim.

Hualapai tribe has reservation in the western canyon, they offer bighorn permits, don't know the number, but guessing $40,000 per tag?

AFAIK, other than Haualapai and Havasupai, rest of canyon below the rim is NPS, either GC NP or Lake Mead NRA.

Sycamore

Pretty much all of the canyon is in the National Park except maybe some stuff way downstream. Some of the feeder canyons aren't if you get far enough up them (Kanab, Paria et al)

There used to be a lot of burros in the canyon but I think most have been "relocated".

pretty good map of the land management in the area.

http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/upload/GRCAmap2.pdf

Some of those burros are slowly re-establishing in the far west, I think they come down Peach Springs Canyon, or from Buck and Doe road.

Sycamore

Dennis,

Not sure if you knew, the headwaters of Havasupai are on Bill Williams Mtn! Also, if you walk far enough up Parashant, you will pass through GCNP, Lake Mead NRA and hit the BLM, but it is Parashant NM (BLM). Have some sore feet by then!

Sycamore

true story, went to see when I was 10, my grandad asked me "what do you think son?"

told him "I thought it'd be bigger"



who knows, maybe it was all the hype about it in the car on the way there.


about 5 years ago we backpacked down to the Havasaupai (sp?) reservation and camped out a couple of nights


it definitely seemed bigger