http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/57302392-68/kalashnikov-designer-rifle-soviet.html.csp

talk about leaving your mark on the world!

Entire regimes have fallen at the point of a Kalashnikov...

Whether loved or hated, the man Definitely left his mark on the World..

he did nothing different than John Browning or Hiram Maxim....main difference actually is Mikhail didnt make hardly anything off his designs....

I will miss him, just like his beloved AK47 missed me, over and over and over again.

RIP Mr. Kalashnikov.

I have built two different variants of AKs from nothing but a stamped receiver and a parts kit. Plus, I used to plink with a Romy when I was a kid. While the man has died, his legacy never will as a weapon's designer.

He had something of a gentle side.

He and a friend of mine sat watching TV news reports of Russian troops putting-down insurrections. The old man cried.

"I didn't design my rifle to kill my people."

RIP, Misha!

According to this 7-minute video made around the time of his 80th birthday, Mr. Kalashnikov was a life member of the NRA.

http://babailov.homestead.com/Kalashnikov.html

Didn't he just expand upon an existing German design?

more or less heavily refined one into the ideal peasant army rifle....

Let me know when Stoner passes.



Travis

Years ago, it was.

I did break down and buy one of the USA made AK's, the IO Sports, a couple years ago, mostly just for the sake of familiarity. "Contraption" is the word that comes to mind. really, really different than an AR

Mine did jam once in the first ~100 rounds, so the myth of extreme reliability, is just that, IMO. And even though mine supposedly has a "match grade" barrel, 3-3.5 MOA with carefully assembled handloads is the best it will do - if the barrel's cold. Hot barrel = way bigger groups. Lots of action flex, even with a Midwest Industries scope mount. I'll probably sell it at some point.

Might be interesting at some point to have a real Russian or Chinese milled receiver AK, but I'm sure as heck not going to spend $1000+ for one of them.

I did not know that. Wouldn't have guessed it either.

if yah got a "match grade barrel" Pat that will kill some of the reliability they are known forthey arent going to be overly accurate for the same reason the piston AR's are a PITA to make as accurate as the DI guns.....can it be done? yep but its a beotch to do and keep the AKs reliability.....

Maser?? WTF

WTH, maybe I'll take mine to the Hog Hunt, folks can have fun plinking.

Rock River has announced an AR-47, that accepts AK mags. That would make a more interesting rifle, but I've not seen any of them, either.

rost aint talking making a few hundred guns to good tolerances......mean when yah put them on a production line and churn out hundreds of thousands like the various countries did with the AK....thats why they used the heavier milled receivers for the Dragnovs versus the stamped....alot stiffer for beter accuracy.....even the stamped Yugo "Dragnoves" use alot thicker metal and beefed up barrel trunions and were made in much smaller batches with a bit tighter controls....

shows what ya get for working with Godless commie [bleep]. Besides, he pirated the AK design from Hugo Schmeisser.

The American M60 medium machine gun. Seems to me it was at least partly inspired by the design of the German MG 42.

One of the best uses the AK was ever put to was the execution of Nicolae and Elena Ceauescu.

RIP Mr. Kalashnikov

I actually met him once. Shook his hand and told him (through an interpreter) his baby hadn't killed me yet - but not for lack of effort. He laughed and promised to keep trying. Even the interpreter grinned.

Salute!

Schit.

Well I like his design better.


Travis

Mikhail, for some reason in my memory, among surely other reasons, was trying to shorten the bloodshed of the war. Kind of like the inventor of the gatling gun.
It from a conceptual standpoint had a father in the sturmgeveher 1944.
However, if anyone was to take a good look at the fire control group of the a.k., and the same in the garand, or carbine, you would go wait a minute.
And unless you have access to a select fire a.k., doubtful, you are looking at an assembled parts kit that is dependent on the quality of the build, usually not all that slick.
And keep in mine the Garand was considered acceptable to fire a 3inch group at 100.
The poodle shooter rifle is a good target rifle, but there is a difference in that and working in the mud.
Now I have a kvar arsonel a.k., with a american fire control group in it, and have shot it side by side with an a.r.
With good quality ammo, you would be surprised.
The russians did make some pretty good stuff, such as the s.v.t.38 and 40, which in a lot of ways is superior to the garand. At least the germans, thought so, at the time.

another comment would be is to look at the user of the rifle. masses of uneducated, peasants that had to have stuff that was pretty simple to keep running, and didn't require a lot of upkeep.
the a.k. did pretty good in that regard.
A similar example is the old moisin nagant which is a 100 year old design.
And what the finn's did when they rebuilt a lot of the rifle and kept the hex reciever. Mighty fine shooters. the first one of those i fooled with i cleaned the cosmo out of the barrel, that's it, put five rounds of surplus russian ammo in it, and offhand from my tailgate five rounds in a gallon coffee can at 100yards. I was pretty impressed.

For many years, starting with at least the Springfield, American military rifles have shown a respect for the marksman that very few foreign military rifles and no Russian military rifles have shown. It's borne out in the ergonomics and sight systems of American rifles. While many foreign rifles are accurate, few are as shootable as American rifles.

if we are going with semi auto battle rifles ild take a Russian SKS over a Garand were i a soldier....forget who said "Patton may think the Garand is the worlds greatest battle implement, but he didnt have to carry the damned thing."

Ever shot a Russian Dragnov? I had the chance to play with one that came out of Afghanistan when the Soviets were there in the late 70's early 80's.

I had heard of this almost mythical sniper rifle, but in the flesh so to speak, it was pretty piss poor.

Cocking it sounded and felt like all the moving parts were broken, and accuracy was decidedly average..I left the range wondering what all the hype was about..

He made one of the best cheap assault rifle ever made and the other best cheap combat weapon was the 45 cal Grease Gun . Great man, gun designer and a Russian Patriot .

no i havent they are damn rare in the states, the stamped Yugo sorta copies are more common.....do remember reading an article by a former Spetznaz soldier that was issued one, he said he loved the rifle but it made him bleed every timehe used it due to the sharp edges everywhere.....granted it was intended to be more of a designated marksman rifle than a true sniper rifle but even alot of the more accurate AK's ive seen have been made with heavier RPK style receivers.....

The optics on it were piss poor as well by Western standards..Had the Brits ever worked out a decent scope mount for our SLR's, (hint, don't mount stuff on that flimsy top cover and expect consistent accuracy) they would have comfortably out shot the Dragnov and probably would have been just as reliable..

hell i aint saying its the end all be all, think i would rather have a scoped FAL personally for a gun of that era but the Ruskies made exactly what they intended all around with their guns, highly reliable, easy to keep running firearms ideally suited for an uneducated peasant army....are there better guns out there? absolutely but they met their goal and then some....

Not having a go my friend, just commenting that rifle did not live up to the hype we had heard/been fed..The SLR/FN was an excellent weapons system, but I do wonder how it would have coped in conditions similar to say those found on the Eastern Front in WW2? Glad we never had to find out!

Arguing about the virtues of two worthless POS could result in injury.



Travis

Make that 3 POS. I forgot the FAL was mentioned.



Iceman

"For many years, starting with at least the Springfield, American military rifles have shown a respect for the marksman that very few foreign military rifles and no Russian military rifles have shown. It's borne out in the ergonomics and sight systems of American rifles. While many foreign rifles are accurate, few are as shootable as American rifles."
_________________________

True and well said.

Thanks.



Travis

Travis,
Was addressing Barry, but I echo your sentiments regarding the FAL.

I was just baiting because I hate commies.


Merry Christmas,
Travis

And I thought you were just dumb!

Actually, ole Mike made out like a bandit from the AK mainly due to the Soviets needing a 'hero' for the masses who came from the masses.

He also apparently didn't have as much to do with the design as was made out.

If you want the lowdown on ole Mickey and his rifle, read the excellent "The Gun" by C.J. Chivers. Very informative.

Rest In Peace Uncle Misha.

Perhaps one day your progeny will help us take our own country back.

Well, they are all junk in comparison to the AR.


Travis

Actually, he did do things different than John Browning. He was fortunate enough to be working in the arms development field in Russia after they captured Hugo Schmeisser who had already designed the Sturmgewehr in Germany before his capture.

The genesis of the Kalishnikov is easily distinguishable by the look and similar funcitons of the 2 weapons. Schmeisser gets no credit for his input into the AK-47 design which has it's roots in the Sturmgewer.

I don't have much empathy for dead communists, good or bad...

AK suppression was our specialty like shooting fish in barrel day or night. Gomer was way too easy most of the time and paid dearly with a chit storm of 7.62 from the heavens.

Spaseeba Tovarisch

Thank you comrade...

I went to Russia in 1990 just after the wall was taken down. What I saw was not impressive and we learned that during the cold war, we had little to fear from Mother Russia and her commie dictators and inventors...

Hey now, the FAL is the only pretty assault rifle ever made! In a real caliber, too!

I have used M16's a LOT and have faced AK47's A LOT. I dislike the M16 intensely. I respect the AK47 greatly. For TJM, the M60 has a combination of Lewis machinegun bolt and gas system and MG 42 feed mechanism. If you had one that some dumb SOB didn't have bouncing in the bed of a deuce and a half for 20 miles, the M60 worked extremely well.

Well, he found that he had a lot of friends he didn't know he had. Twice Hero of the Soviet Union. Things changed, I will always have a warm spot for the old Tank Sargent. The smile on his face with that Pronghorn he had shot in Wyoming. Seem to me that no matter how you want to frame the debate, he did his duty as he understood it to be. Knowing something of the German- Soviet War, no doubt to many of his friends died very very young. I would bet he and Eugene are having a drink were ever it is that we go to when we leave this mortal plain. If you look there is a lot of shared history between us Americans and the Russians a lot of it fairly good. After all they are sort of cousins of a fashion. Rest in Peace -General, you have earned it and respect too. God Bless.

The AR has matured into a decent plateform but however you slice it, the 5.56mm Nato is mediocre at best.

Look at the move by you guys to have nominated infantrymen as "dedicated marksmen" or "sharpshooters" armed with tricked up M14's; the same thing has happened with us Brits for the same reasons.

I can't help thinking that when we had SLR's, we were all expected to be "dedicated marksmen" and I suspect it was the same when all your guys carried M14s...

one of his grand nefews is here in Grande Prairie

norm

I don't know what constitutes the use of an M14 or what is required to be a dedicated marksman.

But I know the AR beats holy dog schit out of every other semi-automatic rifle I've ever used.


Travis

Many years ago a friend was president of the Virginia Gun Collectors & had a huge collection or vintage Winchesters, Henrys, Colts, etc. He received a call from someone in the State Dept. who asked if a special visitor could view his collection. They refused to identify the visitor. Several hours later black limos arrived & security guards blocked off all the streets in his development. Mikhail Kalashnikov arrived escorted by several Russian security guards. Mr. Kalashnikov was well versed in early American rifles & spent several hours inspecting them. My friend received a letter from the Russian Embassy thanking him for allowing Mikhail to visit his collection. The story didn't end there. Several years later Mr. Kalashnikov was celebrating his 80th. birthday & invited American gun & ammo manufacturers, writers, & a few others to fly to his estate in Russia for his birthday & to hunt Red Stag. My friend met the owners of Ruger, Weatherby, Hornady, & many others in the gun industry during the flight over. He said vodka & caviar was consumed in great quantities. Each guest was given a 30-06 double rifle to use on the Red Stag hunt. After the hunt all were offered an additional rifle to purchase. My friend was kind enough to give me the extra double rifle on his return.

Travis, the AR is fine in the way most guys will use them. My experience with them came from living with one in my hands in a very muddy,dirty,wet environment with more shooting than you would want to need to do. I saw them(mine) overheat and lock up, get extremely crudded and lock up and worst of all didn't have enuff penetration w/M193 to go through a 4" diameter tree. The AK's just kept operating and the 7,62x39 most definitely WOULD go through the described tree. The first chance I had, I snagged an M-14. It worked perfectly and went through even bigger trees. Important 'cuz people tended to try hiding behind trees.

There is more M1 Garand in the AK than MP-44, even though it looks like the MP-44. The gas system is Garand upside down, and the two lug rotating bolt is Garand simplified. The trigger mechanism is pure Garand with some full auto parts thrown in. The overall package is clearly inspired by the MP-44.

Actually, Kalashnikov is the only one who was given credit for the design, but there were many others on his team. And periodically all the competing teams came together to inspect each other's design and incorporate anything they thought could better their design.

And then don't forget that all the while they were working on the design, Hugo Schmeisser was a POW at the Ismash factory (I think he went home in '54).

The story of Kalashnikov being "the designer" is probably mostly Soviet propaganda. The Communists just couldn't resist the story that it was designed by a humble Sargeant.

Still, there can be no doubt he played a significant role. After all, he was the leader of the design team.

The FAL is the finest main battle rifle ever built; markedly better than the M-14 or G-3.

Sure as [bleep] ain't better than the M4.



Travis

Is the M4 a main battle rifle? No, it's an assault rifle. Different category of rifles.

ET,

Now take that M16 you knew, and chop the barrel down to reduce the muzzle velocity some what, open up the typical engagement ranges considerably, and give the bad guys concrete hard mud walled compounds to hide behind instead of trees..Its no wonder todays generation of troops wanted the M14 back..

Regards,

Peter

I certainly respect your viewpoints, service, and experience. But the weapon you carried was no the M4 of today.


Travis

Oh.

What's our main battle rifle?


Travis

And they got them, at least some did. You won't find warehouses of M14's anymore, they're either in the field, or at the armorer.

Still, for a general issue infantry weapon, the M4 is superb. It's far from ideal for the Middle East, but it's more than adequate. You can't get one weapon to just do it all. It's taken the US military a LONG time to come to that realization (and we won't know if they really do get that until peace time). The Russians have understood that crystal clear all along. The way they arm a platoon is rather brilliant. We're pretty much arming our platoons the way the Russians do it now, but let's see if that sticks...sure hope it does. Right now just regular US infantry is a VERY fearsome foe!

M-14 sir.

Well then I guess the term "Main battle rifle" is misleading. Because I don't see those [bleep] things anywhere. Except TV and Leupold advertisements of course.



Travis

Good point. Although mechanically they are the same rifle, the big difference is that now we fully understand what makes them tick; and they work better now than they ever have.

There are oodles of them in the field right now.

We did have the forerunner to the M4. It was called theXM177E1 or the CAR-15. We nicknamed it the Jam-o-matic. I prefer a rifle over a carbine any day. It is like carrying a knife. I can use a big knife to do a little knife's work, but I can't get a little knife to do a big knife's work. I would take an M14 over a fAL as I generally don't want a rifle with an enclosed receiver along with the operating springs housed in the buttstock. I also made friends with some guys in a tank unit. Ya see, issue MG ammo for tanks is AP. The 7,62 Nato AP round gives more useable range and decent accuracy along with even better penetration. Poor man's match ammo we called it.

On many CAS missions we received incoming ground fire via AK's. I would rather it had been by .223 than big heavy 7.62x39's that easily pierced both our bulkheads and downed our aircraft.Jungle warfare and the Sandbox are apples and oranges, big heavy bullets will always prevail...

Except the M4 has a shorter barrel that reduces velocity compared to the older M16's..

I don't think the M4 is bad, just that the 5.56mm Nato round is a bit limited.

Personally, I wish the British had stuck with the EM-2 rifle and Taden LMG both in 7mm back in the 1950's..two excellent designs that were light years ahead of their time..

This is pretty cool.

shovel AK

The 5.56 is the best GENERAL INFANTRY rifle cartridge yet. Mostly because of the lack of recoil and flat trajectory. It takes the fear out of shooting for general inlistees who have never fired a weapon in their lives. Yes it's lacking in terminal performance, especially in barrier penetration. But a general infantry soldier will hit what he's aiming at vs. miss with something larger. So that pretty much trumps the other shortcomings, which also include a horrendous muzzle flash out of that 14.5" barrel.

It decreases training time considerably. It costs less to produce. A soldier carries MUCH more ammo, so they can stay out longer without re-supply (that's called a force multiplier...small one that it is). It's reasonably effective, yet easy to hit with. What more could yo want from a general infantry cartridge.

"Better" ballistic performance for the individual rifle doesn't add up to a more effective unit in the field. Took us a long time to learn that.

We started out with a pretty good assault rifle, the M16A1. Then we did our best to turn it back into an M14. One of the greatest assets the A1 had was light weight, so we added nearly 2lbs to the rifle so it could be ore effective out at longer ranges. Only to learn that the Russians we right...just bring in a designated marksman and let the main line infantry soldier go back to being a main line infantry soldier.

Sure as individual riflemen like you and I, we find the 5.56 VERY lacking. That's because we are well trained in the art of the rifle, and feel confident handling something with better performance. But even small increases in recoil, have a big effect on marksmanship performance for new trainees.

I don't think we're going to see a switch from the 5.56 anytime soon. It's working out VERY well, even though it has some significant ballistic shortcomings. But Big Army understands (at least I hope they really get it now),it's just a general issue weapon cartridge to do general infantry chores.

Certainly the Brits had it pegged with the .280 Enfield cartridge, and I wish the M14 would have been chambered for that round rather than the .308; things would have been MUCH different.

I've never found the 5.56 lacking at all.

But I don't shoot people either.


Travis

Hi Kevin,

Having served when we transitioned from the SLR to the SA-80, I am well aware of the advantages and disadvantages of the 5.56mm along with the offical sales pitch but I am firmly in ET's camp on this..

I am not sure why people buy into the Russian model as it treats the infantryman as an untrained peasant that is only useful in huge numbers and armed with crude weaponry..

We Brits simply don't have the manpower nor the cultural background to go down that route.

The only thing that makes up for smaller numbers is "quality" so we should not be accepting 2nd rate weapons nor lack of shooting skills in the infantry..

regards,

Peter

The real advantage of the AK over Western systems is not exakry what one might think. With some exceptions, western nations' bullet launchers work best when there is direct armorers support. Ak's aren't quite as likely to fail completely with parts breaking or wearing. My battalion pissed of the Colonel really bad and we were banished to the field for 6 months. We had choppers resupply every third day. We could order up a rifle and get it on the next log bird or dropped off by the Charlie Charlie immediately if emergency. We had to send in fugged up rifles fairly regularly. The Ak's we took from dead gooks had been in the field for a VERY VERY long time and they weathered the storm relatively well. I believe that the Chindits and Merril's Marauders were very well served by the SMLE and Garands. I would NOT want to make the trips they did with an AR platform rifle,but I'd do it in a heartbeat with an AK. With any of these rifles, if ya shot the bastard he stayed shot and the guns just plain worked under the absolute worst conditions one could subject ANYTHING to..

Far too many slam the Russian model based on 3rd world use of the AK. The Russians are VERY effective with their model; which we're emulating with great success right now.

We can debate all day long, but the 5.56 and shorter barreled assault rifles are going to be around for a long time. And infantry training has greatly increased here in the US and I'm betting in the UK as well. So we're turning out better riflemen armed with better weapons. The M4 is a superior weapon for MOST (but certainly not all) situations the infantry soldier finds himself in.

Big Army did some real looking at the beginning of the current wars and decided they have the right cartridge, and while I personally would want something with better performance, I'd have to say for general issue; I agree with them.

The M4 has become so effective that soldiers negate the lack of barrier penetration by making head shots at ranges up to 150m...When in history can we say that about any general infantry soldiers in any war?

There was one battle where there were so many head shots taken, the press kicked off an investigation to determine if our soldiers were executing prisoners.

Big Army isn't going to risk giving up that kind of marksmanship effectiveness to gain more barrier penetration.

If the 5.56 was so bad, SOMEONE would have changed by now. Instead, we see nations changing TO not FROM.

I agree with you there. So many chide the build quality of the AK. First, just fit and finish, RUSSIAN AK's have never been all that crude. But where it really counts, I can't think of ANY small arm that is built to the quality level of the AK.

I have personally seen AK's that were 30-40 years old, that had been in the field for decades, looked like hell. But as best I or anyone else could tell, all the original parts seemed to be in the weapons. And the barrels on some were smooth for the first 6-8 inches.

Isn't everything? but yes.

Not so much, only in EXTERNAL appearance and layout. Internally, it's more Garand than anything else.

I still stand by my original statement, EVERYTHING stems from an original German design

And I'll take an M-16 of TODAY over an AK any day. I've handled/fired one made in the USSR, East Germany, Rumania and china and every one could'nt hold a group smaller than a [bleep] at 100 yards..

..and every AK I have ever faced or used was perfectly capable of minute of enemy at 200 meter easily,350 with a good shot. The design parameters work quite well. I would also state that I would not EVER contemplate buttstroking anyone with an AR platform rifle, but an AK would do the smash and sweep nicely.

Well that's just a load of crap. The Garand doesn't. The AK doesn't. The FAL doesn't. The M16 doesn't. The 1911 doesn't. The Hi Power doesn't. Man, I could go on for days.

The real truth about Kalishnikov is that he got his information on building his gun from reading the Campfire. Obviously the only real source for engineering greatness can be found here and even better, it is free...

The Russians actually have a superior system in that they very readily pirate and adapt ANY other country's designs that appear workable. We not so much regrettably.

There you go...finally someone's figured it all out

enjoy yourself...but like I said, EVERYTHING stems from the Germans:

After Hiram Maxim introduced his recoil-powered machine gun in 1883, several gunsmiths set out to apply the same principles to handguns, including Maxim. Maxim's designs for smaller firearms using his recoil-powered ideas never went into production. In the 1880s, other designers worked on self-loading designs. The first model to gain any commercial success was the Hugo Borchardt-designed C-93, designed in 1893 and made its public debut in 1894. Borchardt invented the C-93 mechanism, based in large part upon Maxim's toggle-lock principle[dubious � discuss]. The C-93 featured a clever locking mechanism modeled after the human knee joint. in which the mechanical joint is called a knee, or in German Kniegelenk (knee joint).

As always, they get the ball rolling and SOMETIMES others improve as was the case of Browning, Garand etc. GFY...

the comments earlier about the garand guts in a a.k. as kevin mentions is true.
The a.r. is a good target gun.
The russians looked at our pooking around with the 5.56 round projectiles, and came out with a much more efficient projectile for their version.
And the rifles were originally designed for something other than shooting prairie dogs and woodchucks.
One of the BIG design drawbacks to the A.R., in my opinion, is that "gear" front on the bolt which goes into the female part on the back of the chamber. There is a space there between that and the chamber. You get something in there, you will not get lockup.
Few years ago i was breaking in a match grade, very tight, A.R. in july in arizona. Make the mistake of leaving some of the ammo in the sunlight. Gun started popping primers, one of which lodged in the front not allowing lockup. There is a reason they put that forward assist on the gun.
You can also get into terminal balistics at distance with that little bullet too.
I have a friend put up on charges, for a little while, during tet. At the imperial city of hue. They were taking fire from some of the little brown people, behind sandbags in the imperial city. The .223 would NOT penetrate. But it didn't stop a main tank cannon, which is why he was put up on charges for destroying a historical artifact.
We crunched a LOT of m14's under clinton, or gave them away to places like estonia, latvia, etc.
Then we found out in the sandbox in some situations you needed the bigger round. The remaining m14's in inventory were pretty cruddy, but for 5k or so, rebuilt into the scout sniper configeration. One per squad when you had to reach out and touch somebody.
Now what is interesting about that, who did they get the idea from? The germans. As in the K98 Scout sniper rifle which i happen to have a real one.
K98 rifle, with a ZF71 piece of caca side mount scope on it. I have seen better scopes on old .22 rifles, but it is what they used.
And by the way, the scopes on the M1D garand aren't any different, i have one of those too.
I asked a friend of mine in the german special forces, deployments to iraq and the stans what he thought of the .223 nato round. He kind of laughed and said it had some things going for it, but not good at range or penetration. When then had to penetrate a thick wall or something, that is where a tank cannon came into play, assuming you had access to that.
Anybody who is familar with the development and use of these weapons knows we don't have a monopoly on effective technology.
And as others have posted, the fn-fal in many respects is a better rifle then anything we have ever fielded.
and there are very good reasons why the a.k. has been fielded by many countries and carried by boy soldiers into combat. As previously mentioned, the svt38 and svt40 are pretty good semiauto rifles with the ability in about 30seconds to convert to select fire. Germans liked them when captured from the russians. The russians didn't like them because they required maintence there peasant troops didn't provide regularly. And there you have it.
We will spend 100million for a fighter, best in the world that can take down four planes. The russians built five planes for the same amount of money. Cruder, but more of them.

Thankfully, you don't have to carry a FAL on the internet.



Travis

I love Russians. They have done everything possible to destroy life and everything associated with it. All their leaders are such great people too, history is full of them. They made the best fighter jets in the world, the best assault rifle, tanks, Vodka, the list goes on.

After the cold war and we actually got over there to see their greatness, we realized they were a bunch of peasants armed with pitchforks and we were scared of them for decades. Too bad Mikhail died, he was a great guy like all the rest of the brain trust that Stalin somehow missed when he was committing genocide...

I always knew they were peasants.



Travis

Anybody know who the Israeli Galil or South African R4 compare to the AK as far as accuracy and reliability goes?

The FAL is a lot harder to shoot than an AR. The heavy recoil (compared to an AR) doesn't just make it harder to shoot for beginners, it is harder for experts as well. The FAL shoots best from a foxhole prone and rapidly veers to impossible from there. You can shoot an AR from sitting at accurate fire rates you'd never get from a .30. You can accurately shoot an AR from any position you can get your eye behind. You just can't do that with any of the .30 rifles. Not only does the increased recoil cause increased impact deflection (think about resting the forearm directly against a tree and how the bullet will impact away from the solid rest object), the increased recoil breaks whatever position you have. Damn near any position I can shoot a pistol from, I can shoot an AR from. You can't say that about any .30 weapon, including AKs.

I appreciate the retorts, particularly given family in northern germany that faced the russian onslaught coming into germany at the end of the war, and other family in croatia, that had to worry about the bear too.
And i have no good feelings about the communist system and the russians in that respect.
but it is also a mistake to under appreciate what they are capable of. We lost a lot of people in WWII in europe, and it was a bad time. But our battles paled in comparison to the battles on the eastern front. As pete mentioned in relationship to england, weapon systems are somewhat designed for the people who are going to use them. For the russians, those types of weapons killed a lot of people.
And to tick everybody off, i am just waiting for a shipment to come in, and i will soon be purchasing another zastava a.k. shortly. I think it will probably get along with the german, british, american rifles in the safe. But i will make sure it sits on the other side.

The Galil was replaced by the M16/M4.


Travis

come to think of it, i have a 1898 kraig carbine sitting beside me here at the computer. Pulled it out to see how a scabbard built for that rifle fitted. I had forgot, those kraig's were in the same safe as the russians, oops!!!!

You can't compare a FAL in 7.62 to and an AR in 5.56mm.. FNC ~v~ M4, or AR10 to FAL would be more valid comparisons..

And the M16/M4 is being replaced by the Tavor??

Just wondered how those reworked AK designs compared to the original?

Yes indeed. Nor can you compare an AK to an AR. Even the 5.45 AK pales in comparison to the AR when you talk about shootability. The greatest advances in rifle design since the AK, etc have been ergonomic. I shot a PS90 recently and you can bad mouth the cartridge all you want, but I know I could put 3 full auto shots in someone's eyeball at 50 yards with that thing.

The biggest advance for the AR has been the use of barrel free float tubes. Now the AR is not only a close range threat, but slung up and shot prone it is capable of rapid fire head shots out to at least 300 yards. You don't need a big bullet when you are whacking noggins.

ETA: Don't misunderstand me, I greatly admire the AK and own several. It was an advanced rifle for it's time and will probably still be in use 100 years from now.

I'm surprised the FAL isn't used more often today. I have a couple of those too and they are great rifles. If it weren't for the sighting arrangement, I'd rank those over the M-14.

Lee24 was probably the main source of info.


Mike

You can compare any two rifles carried by different infantry. Our infantry carries the M4.



Travis

IIRC more accurate than the average Ak pretty well the same reliability but soldiers hate them cause the milled reciever makes them pigs to carry and much heavier than anything else in the same configuration shooting the same cartridge.....

With a few modifications, here's the future of military rifles:



A few modifications, like making it a full-auto carbine.
But, you get the idea.

Since i have an addiction to garands, it's also true i like the m1A version of the m14. But i have fired full auto m14's, and there is a reason why when they were being used, the go fast switch was removed from most of the rifles in a squad. Hard to keep on target in full auto, and so on. But the one i have fired was a m14 intended to basically serve the purpose of the ol B.A.R., meaning it had a front pistol grip, and a bipod. On the ground prone really hard for me to aim properly. course some of that was my fat gut preventing me from getting low enough. Friend of mine is going threw the process of selecting a 7.62 rifle right now. He is looking at the Fnversion.

how you gonna get around that bolt to make a go fast switch?

Browning's designs have pretty much nothing in common with Borchardt. And Hiram Maxium was an American. You're FOS...again.

Trude dat...ANA .308 will get old when you're carrying them. About the only time you'll like them is when you're actually fighting. That's why it's no longer a primary infantry rifle for most first world nations. But it still serves on as a DMR in first world, and primary in 3rd world. Pretty much anywhere in the world where you see armed conflict, you're very likely to encounter a FAL.

sorry, but couldn't help myself:

http://www.duffelblog.com/2013/12/mikhail-kalashnikov-dead/

Surprised no one has mentioned the 6.8 yet, as something fairly easy to shoot for newbies, yet with more hitting power. Ditto the similar calibers.

I think the 6.8 has a bright future.

Why?



Travis

Not necessarily because it was "better".

Israel gets US military aid, but the string attached to that is that they must spend those billions on US equipment (corporate welfare through foreign aid). So after 30 years with the Galil, they were getting pretty well worn and would probably have to be replaced on a large scale. Israeli weapons tend to not last anywhere near as long as ours because of the climate and the fact that they're always in some sort of combat operations.

So when it came time to replace the Galil, they bought a chit load of surplus M16A1's from the US for a song. Then bought the pieces and parts to upgrade them over there as they saw fit. That's why you see a big hodge podge of M16 variants over there.

Like us, once they learned how to make an AR work (keep it wet), then they came to really love it. But at first the Israeli's were a bit pissed.

except for black powder, most things work better when wet....

Valmet/Sako did it best. The final version the Rk-95 is the finest general issue military weapon ever issued. Immagine an AK that shoots darned near as well as an M4, being fed Lapua 7.62x39 ammo from a copy of the Bulgarian waffle AK magazine (finest military magazine EVER), topped with an Aimpoint, or an ACOG.

Already taken care of, Ron.

I love the round, but the military said no thanks; they're not impressed.

Nobody is.


Travis

Not true! Kalashnikov simply took the idea of the German Sturmgehwer 43 a refined it. Browning was an original genius.

A lot of US fans of the AR use the 6.8 and most who do swear by it. And it really does do most everything "better" than the 5.56 (which shouldn't be a surprise since it's a much heavier bullet), but recoil is increased, trajectory isn't as flat, and scores for new recruits will suffer. Plus, the military doesn't feel it's enough of an improvement to warrant a change. Like I said, they're VERY happy with the 5.56.

The round performs very well, but militarily it's a stillborn.

It's more than a 5.56 and has less felt recoil than a 7.62x39 AK.

Browning and Maxim were inventors. Kalashnikov was the leader of a design team; very big difference. No disrespect to Mr. Kalashnikov, but what he did was incorporate an M1 Garand gas system, Garand bolt, Garand trigger group, Browning safety, into a Schmeisser (MP-44) chassis.

Maxim's invention was a huge leap in technology, as was several of Browning's. The Kalashnikow wasn't a leap in technology because there was absolutely NO new technology incorporated; just the combining and refining of already existing technologies.

look, I'm sorry you missed my obvious tongue in cheek intentions. Be that as it may, even a dope knows the Borchardt has nothing in common with the Browning Garand, etc. so I guess that's good news you find yourself on the right side of the Bell Curve but be that is it may, it was the CONCEPT of semi-auto weapons, in other words the genesis (look that word up). As far as (sic) Maxium he was an American..of German descent, hence my point. I guess FOS is an improvement....

Well you got one thing right...I am a dope!! Yeah, I completely missed the tongue in cheek; my bad.

All I know is that the AK (american Killer) is a POS compared to an AR (America's Rifle).

Klickykoff loved his country. And for that, I don't like him.



Travis

I took it back...

If you had to spend a year on the ground with no armorer support in combat operations; which rifle would you want?

It's not a POS, it's just different. American's don't like it because we're Americans and it's not an American rifle. But to say it's a POS (even in the context of comparing it to the M4) is going a bit far.

I've had a few AK's and I could hit a man sized target out to 500 yards all day long. And it has a REAL magazine, rather than that tin foil straight, then curved POS we call a magazine. Oh God help you if you have all your magazine pouches full and take a real hard dive onto your chest with M16 magazines. Yeah most will survive, but do it a few times and you're suddenly going to start seeing those that don't.

With an AK magazine you could beat someone to death with the feed lips, then load the weapon and kill all his friends.

Well, I'm no combat veteran as you appear to be, but I can tell you I've seen a helluva lot less bad GI mags for the M4 than most folks on the internet.

And I can also tell you that, that commie bred POS doesn't hold a candle to the M4.


Travis

my point was it is stupid to be pissed at someone because of a particular firearm attatched to them just cause they are on the opposite side....had Kalashnikov not come up with or helped design or whatever the AK-47 someone else would have come up with something else and ET woulda been shot at with that in Southeast Asia.....

His funeral was announced today:



MOSCOW � Russia has announced funeral arrangements for Lt. Gen. Mikhail T. Kalashnikov, inventor of the AK-47 assault rifle.

�Comrade Kalashnikov will be buried in a pit of mud with full military honors,� said General-Major Saiga Molot, a spokesman for the Russian army. �After a week, we will exhume his body, clean it off, and put him back to work. We expect that there shall be no issue with his functions.�

Kalashnikov died of complications from a liver transplant operation. The liver Kalashnikov received was allegedly Romanian, but turned out to be a substandard Albanian version.

�It was a successful substitution, but it made him inaccurate and prone to blockage,� said his son, Victor.

While praised for his simple operation and ruggedness, Kalashnikov is also being remembered for his contributions to over 300 insurgencies, 524 known terrorist groups and at least 18 hostile regime changes.

�We will always be grateful to General Kalashnikov for giving us the inspiration for Kevlar,� said DuPont President and CEO Ellen Kullman.

An outpouring of support came from some unexpected areas, including Hollywood, which gave him a star on the walk of fame for his contribution to action films which �helped the audience identify the bad guys without further visual or audio cues� as well as the music industry.

�You can rhyme about a MAC-10 or Uzi, but they know you�re serious when you start pulling out that AK,� said rapper Banana Clip. �Think of what rhymes with 47 � heaven, um� Devon? 7-11? Yeah.�

Kalashnikov is survived by 21 major variants and 31 national operators in addition to several unknown and unidentified versions.

Did I ever post the picture of the deer I got on the way home from the range...