I've been looking for a home protection shotgun lately but before doing so I wanted to get a better idea of just what one could expect from buckshot, so this morning I went out and patterned some.

I used a Remington Model 1100 with a 28" barrel and skeet choke. It's the only shotgun I own and the most open choke tube I have. So results are not completely applicable to a short 18-20 inch cylinder bore but I think I can safely assume that patterns would be even wider with one of those.

Five brands of 2 3/4" shells were tested at three different ranges, 7, 15 and 25 yards. All 00 loads contain nine pellets and the one #4 buck load holds 27. Listed velocities are just what's on the box end flaps, I wasn't about to put my Oehler skyscreens out in front of these loads.

Royal Buck 00 - Made in Spain, 1345 fps
Federal 00 "Maximum: - 1325 fps
Federal 00 "Low Recoil" - 1140 fps
Olin 00 Military Grade - no velocity listed, this comes in a plain brown box.
Remington #4 buck - 1325 fps

You guys can reach your own conclusions but I took away four things from this morning.
1. It's definitely worthwhile to pattern your shotgun. My 1100 wore a fixed modified choke barrel for 47 years, I just bought a new one with screw in choke tubes and this is the first time I fired it. This new barrel shoots a bit to the right for me.

2. Buckshot looks like it is very effective at very close range but the effectiveness diminishes rapidly the farther out you go. I sure wouldn't want to take on a shotgun armed man even at 25 yards but hit percentage falls off fast after 15 yards or so. Still, any of these loads would put a hurt on someone out to at least 75 feet. Now whether they'd take him down, especially with thick clothing on, I'll leave for speculation or those that have actually witnessed the effects.

3. The Federal Low Recoil is definitely lower recoil but not that much, at least not enough to really matter. With 2 3/4" shells the recoil on all of these wasn't that bad, at least not in my gas operated 1100. I suspect a light 18" Remington 870 might come back at you harder, but in a stressful situation I doubt if you'd notice it.

4. While this could generate discussion about how far out one should shoot a deer with buckshot, at the ranges you'd encounter inside a house (10 to maybe 50 feet) damn near any shotgun firing a decent load of #4 buck or bigger is going to put a lot of holes in someone very quickly!


All of the paper targets pictured are 15"W x 11" high so you can get an idea of the spreads.

7 yards

Just fired three groups at three aiming points since I figured at 7 yards, anything works. All of these would ruin someone's day. Even the wad would hurt. Here it looks like the #4 would be the winner, 27 .24 caliber pellets in a small group vs. 9 .33 caliber pellets of 00. But again, at 21 feet, any of these loads would, in technical terms "F--- you up!"




15 yards. Even at this range the pattern is starting to spread.

The Royal Buck pattern is 10" x 5", centered on a chest that would perforate everything pretty well. The Olin Military is a bit tighter.




Federal Maximum and Federal Low Recoil. These were kind of disappointing, the Maximum only got 6 or 7 hits out of 9 pellets, I'm not sure if one of those holes is a double. Same with the Low Recoil, only 8 out of 9. One of those hits could have been from the Maximum, but you can see these loads group right of my aiming point. They'd work but effectiveness is diminishing.





Remington #4 buck - aiming point was the center of the paper. If a man's sternum was centered he'd be perforated from the neck to the diaphragm. Can't comment on penetration but coverage is still good, multiple wounds in both lungs and the heart.





25 yard groups. Just fired one group per paper with these.

Royal Buck



Olin Military Grade




Federal Maximum

[img]http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_09981.JPG[/img]

Federal Low Recoil

[img]http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_09973.JPG[/img]

Remington #4 - this would sting but I'm not sure how much stopping power you'd be getting.

[img]http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_09962.JPG[/img]

Where would you aim for if an intruder came through your door and might have a BP vest on? Groin, head or center mass?

I'm a #4 buck guy myself.
They leave the barrel about a 100 FPS faster than a .22, maybe 300 FPS faster than a .22 pistol. So ask yourself this, if someone emptied 2 1/2 magazines from a .22 simi auto pistol at 25 yards into a bad guys chest, do you think it would have "stopping power" ?
If the buckshot does not kill him, the surgeon will when he has to pull out two dozen pellets instead of 7 or 8.

I have the Olin military 00 stuff in my sawed off/tricked out 870 right now.......

If I knew he had a vest on I'm not sure, probably aim at the head and try for a CNS hit. If he was moving fast laterally the head would be a difficult target but it's still a lot easier target than a clay pigeon winging out there and I can certainly hit one of those.

Hard to say, really.

It would most likely be pitch dark so the first shot would be directed at center of mass since I wouldn't know he's wearing armor. But it's a good subject to think about. Maybe have to practice a variation of a Mozambique drill - one to center, one to the groin and one to the head - one of those should get him.

I've buck and ball in mine.

A lateral move I'd probably go for a hip/thigh shot and that should bring him to the floor pretty quick where you'd be able to get a better head shot.

Nothing like doing the testing yourself and knowing what works in your gun.
This might be helpful to get an idea of the power that can be unleashed by a 12ga.
box of truth shotgun
I don't think a handgun will bring the horsepower that 00 or 000 buck can throw out. #4 Buck ain't shabby either.
Birdshot is great... for birds

Federal Flight Control buckshot loads work best in my cylinder bore gun..... Wish Federal would release the Flight Control wads to reloaders.....

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot45_3.htm

By the way, when close combat with HD shotguns, either pistol grip or stock, it is easier to get shots on "center mass areas" if you hold the gun parallel to the horizon at chest level. Kind of gangsta style with a pistol.
Another good read here

Kentucky carry shotgun

Nice test, Jim. I see the Rem #4 performs the same in your Remington shotgun as in my Winchester 1300. At 25 yards, a man sized cardboard silhouette is covered from head to toe with holes. I use an IC choke.

Those tests were very informative. Thank you.

We were issued #4 Buck at the prison where I worked. So that's what I bought for home. If it's good enough to take inmates off of the fence I'm sure it would work great at the closer ranges found in a home defensive situation.

Dan

Yes, thank you Jim........

1) Number #1 Buck is the ticket.

2) More constriction works better if you want to stretch the range.

3) Absolutely you must pattern your particular gun, choke and load combination for pattern density AND point of impact. Don't rely on one shot for absolute data, shotguns are finicky beast and will surprise you occasionally with a fluke pattern. Good on you for taking the time to investigate this.

Fed personal defense/low recoil is how I roll in the welcome wagon..

Good stuff...For what it's worth, when I was about 15 I did a science fair project with ballistic gel (TONS of it!) and various types of buckshot. I found #1 buck to have the greatest total wound volume based on number of pellets and depth of penetration.

Nice tutorial.

How did that RIO brand ammo function in your 1100 ????
It is super cheap at Sportsman's but I didn't want to buy any junk.

I think a black magic slug would gave gone through all boards and busted the block at the end.

Mine too. I have a cylinder bore duty gun and can put all nine on paper at 40 yards

Try a full choke.

I keep a 20g. double handy with #4 buck. I haven't patterned it, but you really wouldn't want to be within the length of any room in our house. 15 yds isn't an issue. 6 yds would be a long shot.

The Winchester 2-3/4" 16 pellet #1 buck load is what I use for deer hunting. I've tried just about every combination available and it tops them all in pattern density and penetration.

That said, the house gun is loaded with the Remington 8 pellet 00 low recoil loads. Patterns like the one Rancho posted are the norm, and follow up shots are quicker. I also have a source where I can get them in bulk, cheap.

Years ago testing revealed #1 buck held a better pattern than did 00 in many shotguns with full and modified chokes which eastern hunters used deer hunting.

My 3 in. Auto 5 with a 30 inch full choke barrel wouldn't shoot 2 2/3 or 3 in. Mag 00 worth a crap but did very well with 1 Buck with Winchester or Rem. shells with a shot cup

Here's the penetration tests.

[video:youtube]rhZf_x8Esms[/video]

17x11", not 15x11". I recognize the old pin-feed green-bar line-printer paper. It's 17" wide because that's the same as two 8.5x11" sheets of paper side by side.

Good on you for shooting holes in it. There must be tons of that stuff just being burned because nobody can figure out what to use it for; you're using it for targets, which is cool.

You could probably get some decent terminal-ballistics comparisons if you soaked boxes of it and then shot them. You'd make a (biodegradable) mess, though.

Unless you're expecting the police on a no-knock warrant - or the Sinaloa cartel - I wouldn't worry too much about ballistic vests during your home invasion.

Actually, if you are interested in putting a BG down and out of action, experience has shown shooting for the belt buckle/hips works best. It will take him off of his feet, and at least a few pellets should hit high enough to make him dead if he doesn't get fast, expert medical assitance.
I'll give you a couple of examples. One was a cop that took a 00 pellet in the side of the buttocks that had bounced off of the pavement. He was spun around and went down for the count.
The other was another cop that was hit in the side of the stomach with one 00 pellet at either 50 ft or 50 yds. He died before they could get him to a nearby hospital.
Don't underestimate the power of buckshot. E

...with #6's. For "home defense: it doesn't matter what you shoot them with from a shotgun and smaller shot won't go thru as many walls.

Never shot a block of ballistic gel. Never saw one either.

My lay testimony on shot of various sizes as relates to hogs.

#8 field load, 12 bore, 10 yards: One shot stop
#3 Buck, 20 bore, inside 30 yards: Dan 70+/- Hogs 0
#1 Buck, 16 bore, 30 yards: dead pig
00 Buck, 12 bore, 20 yards: dead pig

All in all I found it as reliable as a .30-30, .257 Roberts or a .22 CB Short.

Never saw a shotgun pattern large buck as well as small. Never met a pig that would stop any size buckshot on a broadside shot unless it hit heavy bone. People are a lot like pigs more often than not.

Ballistic vests? Never met anyone who went anywhere without their crotch, including Elvis. Living with a perforated crotch is a serious challenge.

Back to your regular programming....

Right in the chest and he won't be getting back up at that range.

I patterned some Hornady Critical Defense 12ga 2 3/4". It's 8 pellets in a "versatite" wad (I suspect it's a Fed Flite-Control renamed). velocity is 1600 fps.

I'm shooting a Rem 870 18.5" Cylinder bore

This stuff patterned'

10 yds - 3"
20 yds - 7"

I was impressed, as 1 inch per yard seems typical in my experience.


Didn't get a pic of the 20 yd target, but this was 10 yards,




A gratuitous pic of my shotgun, with new Magpul stock and forend.

Those are the type of patterns I got Shane..... Night and day difference to any other loads tried..... I am interested in the Magpul stock.... Does it accept lights/lasers?

NC just started allowing night hunting for coyotes..... Pretty sure they ate my cat last year...... I would like to do some field testing on them.....

One of our neighboring dept's just got new shotguns. After a day of goose hunting with me, their firearms guy asked to borrow one of my Patternmaster choke tubes. He called me up and said that at 25 yards with 00buck duty loads he was getting a pattern the size of a volleyball. Their new guns now all sport PM chokes

See my pic?

Nice in combo with factory mod 18.5" barrel and night sights.

Magpul offers these pic rails for their MOE stocks, and I believe they fit the shotgun forend as well. Looks like they attach through the vent slots.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/23...uards-polymer-black?cm_vc=ProductFinding

I'm guessing these are what Rancho Loco is using.

Yeah.... Just checked.... They sell the forend and then a seperate lighting rail....I have one of the new Surefire Ultras that is just stupid bright..... The barrel I have has adjustable sights but I can't see the non illuminated front sight after dark.....

Seems like my options would be to either install a night sight or add a laser to a different rail.... Has anyone else worked out a good night hunting system on an 870?

I can attest to this first hand. 00 will stop a ramped up charging Pit Bull immediately. I've had to dispatch plenty of them on duty...NOTHING is more effective at close range. Period!

Barak, it's actually 14 7/8" but I rounded up. I bought a box of 5000 sheets of this stuff for $5.00 on closeout at Staples sometime in the late 90's and have been using it for my targets since then. The 1/2" color bars give a useable estimate of height for sighting scopes and knowing how many clicks of elevation to use.




MontanaMarine, your 870 is the shotgun I've decided on except I'm getting the regular 4 shot magazine version for various reasons and will add a mag extension. These models have a 1/4" shorter LOP than a standard 870 and after trying Express models, Wingmasters and these personal defense models that 1/4" makes a felt difference in mounting it. One of my big concerns with this, as with any shotgun, was that it fit me. For some lucky reason Remington has my body type dialed in. Their shotguns come up and point right where I'm looking which is among my top priorities in a defensive weapon.

Thanks to all for the additional info on performance and patterning. I had picked up some of the cheaper ammo ($5 to $6 a box) just to get an idea of what to expect. But when I load this for real I'll use the best copper plated, hardened shot I can find. Even if it costs $2.00 per round it would be well worth it if it came to actually use it.

I don't figure on taking out any animals with this and the longest shot in my house from bedroom hallway to front door is a measured 12.5 yards or just about 38 feet, so longer range patterns aren't really a concern.

We all love our handguns but arguments abound about effectiveness of this caliber over that or this bullet over that. But when you absolutely, positively have to put someone on their ass and stop them right now, I've never heard anyone knocking a shotgun for the job.

By RIO I assume you mean the Royal Buck? It worked just fine but then I only fired one round at a time. One round of one brand in the chamber and another brand in the magazine for those targets where I shot a side by side pattern.

I bought 5 round boxes for testing but I see where Estate, Royal Buck and maybe one or two others have 25 round boxes of 00 which work out to be a lot cheaper for 5 rounds than the small boxes. There's better performing ammo out there but again, this is a shotgun at close range. If Estate or Royal Buck was all I could get my hands on I sure wouldn't feel helpless.

Home defense #2-4 shot for me. It's all about the choke. Figure out what you want your pattern at what range and pattern accordingly.

I like it A LOT.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/92...oke-with-tritium-rifle-sights-parkerized

I meant a full choke plus buckshot if you want a denser pattern at distance.

That is correct. It is stupid easy to activate the TLR-1 with this set-up.

I have fired hundreds if not thousands of rounds of buckshot- mostly in official capacity. In a standard police shotgun (Rem 870 with no work done to it) I could not reliably get all 9 pellets to hit inside the scoring lines on a TQ19 at 15 yards. If you did a long forcing cone you could keep them in at 15. There was a guy, Louis Aurback or something that had a system with a really long forcing cone that would let you pattern pretty good to 25 yards.

Fast forward to shotgun hunting. I played with many different loads and choke tubes. Generally, buckshot does not like a tight choke. A long modified is as good as it gets usually. I never could get any buckshot to pattern good enough to want to hunt with it. I ended up using #2 hevi shot and BB hevi shot. They patterned enough better to be worth using.

When I did entries on search warrant and arrest warrany executions, I was often point with my 870 and I would either carry 000 buck or maybe slugs. Ranges were whatever you could get inside a house or apartment. It was close range stuff! Only thing I ever smoked with buckshot was a dog!

Why not use a slug?

Wouldn't HeviShot or Tungsten-mix goose loads with the largest available shot pattern really well and offer nearly as much penetration?

Couldn't agree with your assessment more. I too have served in similar capacities on entry teams...there is NO better tool for homes and apartments. Period. I have witnessed the Rem. 870's effectiveness first-hand with 00 loads. It is devastating. I believe it would be even more effective if one had the luxury of a fixed position and let the threat come to them as in defending ones home.

Yes. #2 Steel is an excellent burglar round.

There are tungsten BB & T low recoil loads designed for home defense.

Many years ago, when running deer with dogs was legal in Texas and shotguns with buckshot were the prefered weapons, I came to some conclutions that I feel are valid for self defense purposes as well.

First is that buckshot is best used at very close range.....preferably under 25 yards or so. It can be effective at longer ranges but even the best patterning guns begin to spread the pellets pretty thin at more than 25 yards. For deer or self defense you want every pellet to strike in the "kill zone" and that means a spread of no more than 8-10". It matters not how many pellets strike in a 30" circle as many (maybe most) will strike "fringe" areas and not be effective killers. This is not a problem at all for typical self defense use as it would take an extreemely big room to offer a 25 yard shot inside a home.

Second, since the effective range of buckshot is so short, pellet size matters little. The only real advantage of larger pellets is better penetration at longer ranges. At close range any pellet size has plenty of penetration and multiple hits are more effective than any energy advantage a larger pellet might have.

Third is that most shotguns will pattern smaller size pellets better than larger sizes. This is particularly true if the choke is tighter than IC. In fact, with #4 Buckshot the very best patters are often had with a modified or even full choke.

I found a load of #4 Buckshot to be much mopre effective for me as deer medicine.....and would choose the same load for self defense purposes. You also gain the advantage that the lighter #4's will be less likely to penetrate multiple walls endangering unintended targets.

Why not indeed. I vote for a 5.56 over the shotgun, and if you are going to use slugs that just clinches it for me.

Back to chokes and busckshot, guys spend $$ to get their guns Vang Comped so they can shoot better patterns at longer ranges, when all they need is a full choke. Last box of 00 I bought the manufacture recommended a full choke. At close range the pattern is tight enough regardless of choke you have to aim, so the full choke really only helps when you move out to longer distances.

Well said, and one thing that even experienced shotgun hunters fail to realize about shooting people is that you ain't worried about finding and eating what you shoot. At 10 yards, a load of #8's from a .410 will stop an aggressor every time.

Nothing over BB would pattern nearly as well as conventional shot sizes. I used #2 hevi shot from predator calling and feel comfortable to 65 yards with this combo. The hevi shot seems to penetrate and kill about 2-3 shot sizes bigger than lead.

I keeps me a couple of boxes of 3" (lead) BB's for the calling.

..

Steel does not work well on fur though. I am surprised it would work well on clothing and people. Steel will somehow get caught up in fur. We have all tried it and went back to hevi shot or lead. It's dang hard to find lead in #2 or BB or T sizes these days. Steel might work at 15 yards but not at 40.

you ought to read this guy and what he does to a shotgun.
https://vangcomp.com/Pattern_dea.html

be sure and look at the dea test

I have not found this to be true. Specialized buckshot chokes are not usually full but rather modified choke at tightest. I got my best patterns ever with a patternmaster choke tube but they are not compatible with slugs and until recently, we could not hunt lions with buckshot so I kept a slug ready in case I called in a lion. I have killed a few deer with buck and slugs but not under the classic conditions for which they were intended, all were over 100 yards and were probably more luck than anything.

I used 000 towards the end because I felt like even if I got one pellet in I wanted it to make a big hole. I also felt it was better on cars than the smaller stuff and so I just loaded one type of shell.

I've been keeping 00 Buck in the gun, and that won't likely change any time soon.

But, I picked up a box of Winchester 3" steel BB, 1/1/8 oz, at 1550 fps. Gonna play with it a bit.

At in-home distances, I think it would close-out one's Health Record in a hurry.

I've got 3" Lead #2's in mine for home defense. It will kill anybody I shoot at at inside the house ranges.

Why do we try to make bullets come apart and shot loads stay together for personal defense? A skeet load of #9's is as good as it gets for defense within a house.

Hits like a slug at short range...low penetration of interior walls...easy to control...easy to defend in court...and hard on the eyes (the bad guys.)

Ltppowell- I'm not questioning your opinion, but do you know of any real world uses of #9 shot being used and what the effect was?

I'e seen many people shot, and killed, with all sizes of shot from all gauges. In a house, the results were always the same, with the larger gauges resulting in nothing more than a bigger mess to clean up.

I saw a guy shot in the back of the neck at 6' with #8 shot and it knocked him down but not for long! He got up and was wandering around with a ginormous flesh wound on the back of his neck. I never heard what became of him after he went to the hospital. He was mad because it messed up his tattoo. I saw him 10 years later and he had a pretty good scar on the back of his neck. He told me that they treated and released him from the hospital the day he was shot! You cannot reliably count on small pellets to penetrate clothing and into the vitals. You will have to trust me on this. I would not use anything smaller than #4 buck for home defense in LEAD. I would feel ok with BB or T in tungten-iron or lead.

I really didn't know any agencies that used anything other than 00 or 000 buck for police work. There is a good reason.

itppowell, I know exactly what you are aiming at with the posts about "squirrel shot" for self defense.

At 15 feet (which is a LOT more likely to be true inside a house than a 20+ yard shot) it makes little difference what load you are using....they all hit hard. The "goal" it must be remembered is to "stop" the shootee.....not nessisarily to kill him (although killing would be a very nice side benifit).

That's why I would choose a load of #4 Buck because of it's potential for "lethal" results, but I can't really say it would hit any harder than a load of #8's (or even rubber buckshot which is more effective than many believe at close range).

I'm not trying to argue with the effectiveness of OO or OOO loads in killing power, just that smaller buckshot has proven (to me at least) to be more effective at ranges of less than 25 yards.

Police and military agencies don't choose heavy pellets because of their superiority at close range, but rather because they know these loads may (and most often are) used at longer ranges. At 40+ yards (where police weapons are likely to be used) individual pellet energy and penetration become a very important factor where a single pellet strike might be the deciding factor in a gunfight. For typical self defense, this is not the case.

"NOTE" All loads and gauges are tested out of 24" barrels. (Actual Velocities)
B202A Holds Really Tight Patterns. We Recommend a 10 Ga. .690 or
a 12 Ga. .665 Turkey Choke for 00 BUCK.
For The Benelli Super Black Eagle, we Recommend A.655 Choke.
We do not use moly when shooting from a Mossberg Model 835 12ga. 3.5" shotgun.
"NOTE" All Buckshot is Designed to Hold Tight Patterns at Long Range.

This is a quote that I copied from Nitro Company.
I have been using my turkey choke for years with #4 and 00 at 50 yards it might not drt a yote but they don't go very far either.

what bout dead coyote ammo?

Kind of spendy way to kill intruders:)

This is my last post on this. Police don't use 00 buck because they know it will be used at longer ranges. I was a LEO firearms trainer for 15+ years and had training with many agencies across the country as well as international. A standard police shotgun (what almost all agencies use) cannot reliably hit anything smaller than a school bus with buckshot beyond about 10 yards.

They use 00 buck because it makes a mess of whatever it hits and is steeped in tradition and very defensible.

If you are looking for something to use in your home for defense, use whatever you want. The range you shoot at will be very, very short. I personally wouldn't use anything smaller than #4 and #2 would be better. The advantage to using #2 or #4 is that you will probably not have any pellets exit your house. In this liability driven world you should be just as worried about the pellets that don't hit as the ones that do.

I leave my shotgun loaded with either #4 buck or whatever coyote load I am trying at the time. Pretty easy to defend these choices- I grabbed my turkey gun or my coyote gun and defended myself. If you have a tricked out tactical shotgun in your arsenal, great, just be ready to be crucified over your use of it however wrong that is.

If you choose to use promotion dove/quail loads for home defense, you are making a poor choice. You will most like NEVER fire a single round at an intruder. I would be smart to pony up and buy at least ONE box of the stuff you really want to bet your life on.

I would also not recommend magnums for the simple reason that the recoil will not be fun and at 10 feet you don't need magnums. If you have 00 buck it will work great but some pellets might have enough momentum to carry through a wall and hit something unintended; like a neighbor. Food for thought.

I'll say it again, the most obvious and overlooked choice in a buckshot load is No. #1 Buck. #1 Buck has it all and is the best combination of everything.

For lead buckshot, yes #1 is probably the best compromise.

I choose #4 for deer, buck thtat is. Have killed easily out to 50ish steps.

For the house, generally I keep dove loads in the gun, backed up by either 00 or 1 buck, and a few slugs for good measure.

Inside my house there isn't anyone I can't kill or stop with dove loads.

RE vests... my first shot will always go center mass no matter. Adrenalin being what it is and not shooting your defense guns daily... I"m going to the biggest target.

Even with a vest a dove load will get someones attention.

After the first round we will decide what the next step is. I do NOT want to get tied to an exact routine that might screw me in the end.

Though my guess is in a panic, it'll be 2 dove loads and then decide if we need hips, head, whatever else I can see etc.. and shortly there after there will be some bigger pellets flying.

Thats assuming I've grabbed the shotgun instead of the AR or 45...

A good read on Shotgun Home Defense Ammo. Their conclusion is that #1 buck is the best with respect to lethality without over penetration through walls and such.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

The Box O' Truth website also has some interesting discussions on various aspects of shotguns with buckshot - if different chokes work better than others, various brands etc. I read about 5 or 6 of his short articles last night and found them very informative.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/theboxotruth.htm

Imagine that...

People who actually use shotguns to kill stuff don't have the slightest concern about what shot size to use on humans at 30', do they?

I spent a lot of time with buckshot back when it was the only thing legal during the gun season around here. I found with the right choke combo I would like to shoot 0 or 00 much more than the smaller shot IF I had to engage past 25 yards. IF I was shooting under 25 yards, the smaller pellets still had the energy to penetrate. I saw many deer that were knocked down with #4 buck at 35-50 yards get back up and run a long way. One poor deer was shot with 2 loads of #4 buck at 40+ yards. When the guy went to get it, it got up and ran. When it went by another guy, he threw 2 more loads at it and it kept going. Finally walked under a guy in a stand who hit it with 2 loads of 00 at 20 yards. When I saw it with the skin off it looked like roadkill...

At 30 feet and under there's just gonna' be a big ragged hole anydamnway...