http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...actory-reject-united-auto-workers-union/

July 31, 2012: An employee works on a Passat sedan at the Volkswagen plant in Chattanooga, Tenn.AP
CHATTANOOGA, Tenn. � Workers at a Volkswagen factory in Tennessee have voted against union representation, a devastating loss that derails the United Auto Workers union's effort to organize Southern factories.

The 712-626 vote released late Friday stunned many labor experts who expected a UAW win because Volkswagen tacitly endorsed the union and even allowed organizers into the Chattanooga factory to make sales pitches.


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The UAW for decades has tried without success to organize a foreign-owned plant in a region that's wary of organized labor. The loss now makes it even harder for the union to recruit members at another Southern factory.

"If they can't win this one, what can they win?" asked Art Schwartz, a former General Motors labor negotiator who now is a consultant in Ann Arbor, Mich.

UAW President Bob King, in a 2011 speech to workers, said the union has no long-term future if it can't organize the Southern plants.

King, however, stuck to statements he made earlier that the union would seek a vote and respect any decision made by workers.

"While we certainly would have liked a victory for workers here, we deeply respect the Volkswagen Global Group Works Council, Volkswagen management and IG Metall for doing their best to create a free and open atmosphere for workers to exercise their basic human right to form a union," King said in a statement.

Good for them!!!

Mike

Super! I love it!!!!!

Good for them and all the right-to-work states.

They just kicked the devil in the nuts.

Obamacare has ruined their chances of getting really great health benefits, and the government sets limits on what can be contributed to a 401k. Why pay tons in union dues in hopes of getting maybe getting some modest salary increases, at best??

How long until the UAW can hold another vote?? Guess they'll have some arm-twisting to do in the meantime. If only they had card-check, then they'd know who's arm to twist/who to threaten.....

I worked union all my life, never had to kiss an ass or suck a dick, retired at 56 with 50% of my salary in pension and benefits.

Well, congratulations. I'm sure all the workers coming after you hope the ponzi scheme survives for at least one more generation. Many of the union municipal employees of the city of Detroit weren't so lucky.

Worked private heavy industry, we took our earned share of the profits. The health of the company was number one in our books, not the stereotypical union of slack asses you may have heard about. As far unions dues go in our local show up for half the meetings get a 50% discount on dues. It ain't for pussies.

Good for them and the State of TN

Maybe you should ask around and find out what you've been missing...

Unions are nothing but sub governments. If we don't trust the US government why in the hell should we trust another bunch of [bleep] trying to make a living off MY money? Unions - nothing but money spent for promises.

Lot of $hit talkin about Tennesseanans on the fire but seems to me us hillbillies are smarter than we sound. Y'all take care now ya hear.

just more evidence the unions continue to lose power and influence.

I am not anti- union.
However,
the UAW has become a huge gorilla on US auto manufacturers back. One could consider the unions MAY have outlived their usefulness.
I too draw a union pension. As a construction worker, I realized early on that one must be in a union , if in the construction industry, for max. advantage. Many employers implored me to leave the union, as I was always management.
Now, the great imbalance comes from government unions. Even the poster child for the dems, FDR, realized the DANGER to unionize government workers.
Case, in point, Wisconsin has a budget surplus, first since the dinosaurs croaked,
because Walker trimmed their collective bargaining power.
Good for the VW workers.
We will not see a balance of any sort until the pols that bargain with the unions are not in bed with the union.
Cisco

now send vw back to germany where they belong.

SRW......
What about my Ducatis, and Moto Guzzis and Triumphs?
Do I have to send them back too?
Cisco

Me too... retired at 55 with more than 1/2 my salarie, whoever don't like it can go pfhukk themselves

I have friends who work there. They told me most of the workers in favor of the union were Northern move ins who were in unions where they came from. I guess they couldn't figure that the unions back home were in large measure why their jobs went away.

Which is exactly the reason to avoid card check, at all costs.

No I love paying 50% of your salary for never touching a new car. It is what makes American vehicles so competitive with Japanese makes. Thank you UAW for making Detroit what it is today.

Be back in a minute.. going to 'F' myself as requested".

Are you finished yet?

The problem is the bast$rds will be back...... wish we could run ever one of them that voted for the union out of the state....

And you idiot that are bragging about retiring at 55 with 1/2 your salary.... thanks for screwing up the auto industry...

good for those workers. i just hope the company appreciates it and takes care of them.

Well if it was like that from the start of the industrial revolution their probably wouldn't have ever been a union started in this country.

Congratulations! You are now getting paid to do nothing. Great job if you can get it. BTW, where does that money come from? The company you USED to work for, you say? Where do they get it ? You don't give a chit, you say as long as the checks keep coming.

Here's the reality. You've got a sweet deal, retired at 55, you can grab another job for tens years and stash some cash. You might live to be 85 or 90. That means your former employer will pay you for not working as long or longer than they paid you to work!

The company can handle a few of you - the first few. After all, the first few probably only make up 2% of the total budget. Up fees by 2% and its covered. Painless, right?

What happens after 20 or 30 years of this? The 2% becomes 20%+. Raise fees 20% and consumers stop buying, jobs are lost, companies shrink or go under. Look at Detroit, look at the Steel Industry, look at Mining. To stay in business, companies automate. Machines don't get pensions, don't need healthcare, vision, or Medicare supplemental coverage.

What can't be automated gets shipped out to places that aren't suffocating under this burden. Then there goes some great paying jobs. Between Auto, mining, and steel, we are talking the loss of millions in the past 30 years. The Steel industry couldn't be saved because no outside company would buy the pensions obligation, and without it, no sale would be allowed.

But you guys enjoy that sweet life you have - getting paid for not working. Really, it's a great thing for you. The Europeans have for 100 years picked their trades based on what kind of retirement they expect rather than what opportunity they could take advantage of. You guys are on the leading edge of the future for America. Wave your flag and shout it from the mountaintops - It's great to get paid not to work!!

But while your at it, please explain how BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, Kia, Hyundai, Toyota and others have flourished with non-union shops and the Big Three out of Detriot have foundered? I know that people in LaGrange Georgia, Montgomery AL, And Spartanburg SC, are glad to have the those good paying jobs.

I'll never understand the mindset of people who want to send good paying jobs out of America.

Toyota has a large manufacturing plant in Central Kentucky.

It's a major, major contributor to Central Kentucky's economy.

It's hard to imagine the impact it would have if it closed.

Im a proud union member, Journeymen Electrician w/ nuclear structural welder certs. My whole family was UAW, they were the 1st ones to tell you with was f'd up like a soup sandwich. There is a huge difference in unions Public sector, private (trade) unions, and The UAW megaunion. Im not a fan of public sector unions at all, the uaw is To bloated to help anyone. But Trade unions I still see as a viable option due to the increase in training opportunities, retirements, and competitive final cost to the customer in commericial and industrial settings.

My retirement is phenomenal, and its ALL mine, im in control of it. 16.18/hr + time and a half and double time, all going into a Fidelity account that is under my control in my name. Sure I have to pay 4% union dues + monthly dues to the international, but for the benefits I can choke it down. Yes there are rediculous liberals I have to deal with on a daily basis, but I've turned it into a game of making their heads explode. Its not hard, you just have to be better at your job than the libs' are, and there 3 other guys in this area that have nuclear certs for welding, and we all got NRA stickers on our trucks ;-).

I guess what im saying is, I dont have any problem using them for financial gain.

I don't have a problem with all unions.

I do have an issue with the UAW and labor laws that allow and encourage collusion and racketeering.

Good for VW in TN. I hope the workers accept VW's help in organizing their own labor representation.

Most of you'all are pretty funny. It's all those dam unions faults. Has nothing to do with CEOs getting 800, 900, times what an average employee gets per year instead of the 40 times as much they got 50 or 60 years ago when companies made good money and workers made a good living. Like the song says they run the company broke, take their 40 million $ BONUS and jet out of town. A bunch of sheeple that can't become slaves fast enough.

Now, what country are you from?

Unions are communist....

you will never fix america as long as they are here.those jobs would still be availalbe in our industry if our stupid greedy people wouldn't have invited them all to build here.if they were all still imports we be way better off.if the germans woulda came this country to sell vw's there selves instead of letting greedy americans do it for them in the 60's they woulda got laugh out of the country. same with toyota,i'd like to seen the look on ww2 vets when a slant eye tried to sell them a car.

That one just north of you, you may have heard about it. Anyway, my pension is a union pension, I paid into, its fully funded and conservatively doled out by elected members of our union. When I left, trade rate was ~$40/hr, medical, dental, insurance for sickness etc. 4 10 hour shifts a week and 8 weeks off plus another 40-80 hrs banked hours to take every contract year, I didn't do much O/T but those that do run $110k-120k/year. The shares in the company continue to climb in value, and yes I have been a shareholder. The company would gladly pay us $50.00 an hour with no benefits but that's not a good deal.
You need to be at the top of your game to get into and stay in this workplace, production and safety are everything for my past employer.

Exactly!!

And only 1/2 your ability to spell it looks like too.

I work with trade unions all the time. Everyday in fact. I've been in several. They do nothing for me that I can't get equal or better on my own. Not to say the guys that are in them aren't hard working guys, but most if not all of the have had full gallon jugs of Obama Kool-Aid. They really don't need the union to do what they do for them, but the union's have them convinced they can't do better on their own.

The public sector unions are just about less than useless. Working on state jobs nearly all my career has shown that over and over and over. The guys/gals that are in them at first are usually hard working like the trade guys, then about a year in they "learn" what they DON'T have to do, and flip the switch to 2 hour lunches and 5 hour work days.

Think this influenced the vote?

"In Chattanooga, the union faced stern opposition from Republican politicians. Sen. Bob Corker of Tennessee was the most vocal opponent, saying that he was told that VW would build a new midsized SUV in Chattanooga if workers rejected the union. That was later denied by a VW executive. Other politicians threatened to cut off state incentives for the plant to expand if the union was approved."

That's not a union problem that's a company/supervision problem. Those in our shop that did that were disciplined to correct the behaviour and if that didn't work they were shown the door.

I've looked into non union, 30-35% less pay, 80% less benefits. Insurance sucks as well. It would be worse than that if there were no trade unions, They keep wages up. I see a lot of jobs for electricians with my skills non union, and they want to pay half or less than half what I make now. those shops are charging the same amount an hour for me work as the union shops are, and I'd not even be getting a retirement in most cases.

The unions got their way in Detroit in the 70's.

See what that got them!

Look at the demographics of the Democratic party. Enough said!

In the '60s Detroit had the highest per capita wages of all major US cities.........
what happened?????????
Perhaps competition from foreign auto manufacturers with a better, cheaper product was a factor.
Cisco

Competition with no unions kicked their a$$'s!

My father in law is a nice guy but a lazy SOB! He was in the UAW.

Found any Doctor excuse not to work. He worked 1 maybe 2 days a week on the average. Kept his job. He's enjoying a good retirement now.

He voted for Obama both times.

Brain washed!

VW workers know that they do not need a union to build cars.
Good for them.
Now if the rest will do the same---

The UAW has done for the America Auto Industry exactly what the Teachers Unions have done for public education.

Who Knew?

Solely blaming the UAW for the demise of US auto industry isn't entirely accurate IMO. It was managements decision to design crap and when people left in droves for Toyota and Honda that's what killed the auto industry. Lazy, over compensated UAW workers would still be doing there thing as usual, if the design quality wasn't so [bleep]. One look at the price of a Toyota VS a similar GM product tells the tale. The Toyota will always cost more, but its also not a POS like the GM vehicle. So the effects on unit cost of ridiculous salary and benefit packages is much over stated.
IME one would also make a mistake in lumping all unions together. I supervise IBEW workers and they/there union are great. Trade unions simply don't call dead beats out to work so they aren't stuck with slugs. OTOH I have also supervised USW and they are the biggest bunch of losers who have a parasite prey relationship with the company to the nth degree.

That wasn't the case when Toyota and Honda started their climb over here. They were better vehicles at a better price.

In an ideal world there would be no unions, but an ideal world wouldn't have the issues that would make hard-working, industrious workers consider joining a union.

Furprick - It appears your union and the company you worked for found a way to make things work for the benefit of both the company and the workers. That's as things should be run, regardless of whether in a union or non-union work environment.

sure does seem to me that a lot of people who defend unions are always pissed cause somebody makes more than they do. do you make more than the guy working the window at McDonalds? wonder why that is?

a union member calling somebody else sheeple? priceless...

^
|

Excellent post!

BMW was complicit and led the way in getting the UAW there, dude.

ya but this is about VW, dude.

if you mean VW, then its because thats the way they do it in germany. however, in this case, the workers realized that the UAW offered them nothing and rightfully rejected them.

True, but when they became comparable to American makes in features is when they really took off. I remember never seeing a Toyota or a Honda here in MI in the late 80's, now they are everywhere.

they are not as good as american auto's,they are built out of anything they can pawn off on us. most are not even safe as recall after recall proves.stop buying the foriegn junk and be a american.

I buy US when I can, but that's the funniest statement I've read in a while.

Americans are building what you call foreign junk". Who do you think is buying the VWs made in Tennessee. It's great the VW workers don't have to pay the Mafia or a union to work and do their jobs.

Show me an American auto company that isn't all over the world. Ford's biggest plant is in Brazil, Then Canada. Even my Bil 3/4 ton Dodge diesel says MADE IN MEXICO. That is an 2004 truck. Very little is made here by the big three anymore,, it seems. If they would have stayed here they would have died altogether, so they moved and we call them " American made" cause it's a Ford, Dodge or Chevy. I was looking at Honda Civics last week. Ya, I know, it's anti American cause the profits go to Japan. So what, if I buy " American" where do the profits go????? The unions, CEO's , union, retirements, payments for workers to not work???

I worked NON UNION all my working life, retired at 55 with 64% of my salary in pension and benefits and never had to pay $1 in Union dues.

Are you from the 70's?

What is an "American auto" ?


Mike

That's one of those Dodge's "made in Mexico" or one of the Canadian GM's.

A Toyota Tacoma for one... It actually has a higher US made part content than a Chevy Silverado. and unlike the Chevy, it isn't a total POS within 5 years.

I like to buy American made products. I prefer to buy American made products, when I can. But, I am also called to spend my dollars in the most wise manner I can. That is my responsibility as the head of my household. So if I choose to buy a Toyota, it is because I believe my dollars will go further than if choosing a Dodge or GMC.

Ha! That's funny! That's exactly what the US auto industry was saying back in the 70's.....


.....while they were producing AMC Gremlins, the Ford Pinto, and the Chevy Vega.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/14/us-autos-vw-election-idUSBREA1D1DP20140214

don't be knocking those gremlins. my 77 was a chick magnet. well, an ugly chick magnet, but a chick magnet none the less.

Trade unions are a skilled labor pool. Big construction company's can not waste valuable time trying to hire out of a help wanted ad and go through 10 people to find the one who can actually do the job and do it right and safely. Maybe they can still get away with it in the big cities, but screw offs and troublemakers don't last long on the job sites anymore, they get run off and replaced with some one who wants to work.

My grandfather was a WWII vet. He drove Isuzu's and Toyotas.


Travis

It must really piss you off that the Chevy Colorado you drive was jointly designed by GM and Isuzu.

I know. Can you believe the CEO's get paid more than a factory worker? I mean WTF? Our goal as a society should be a people without classes!


Travis

Not better than the Pintos, Vegas, Horizon and Gremlins???? That was their price-point comparables and the Civic/Corolla/B210 were as good or better than those at a lower/equal price.

+100

I went to a vo-tech high school my jr&sr years that was sponsored partly by the Carpenters union. (a good thing). Graduated a third year apprentice and was on my way to a good career doing something I truly enjoyed. Then along came the housing boom in the late 60's and with it came special union rules for residential vs commercial work, piece work, illegal's, and the two gate system on gubment jobs.
A few years of that and I was in the union hall one day when a wet-back walked in, plopped 150.00 down and instantly had the same journeyman card I and worked four years for and was so proud of.
Eventually the unions stopped participating with the school district and the vo-tech school went away along with my interest in being a union member.

Unions may have served a purpose a hundred years ago but those days are long gone. Nowdays they're just a corrupt arm of a corrupt gubment.

I know what I missed I retired 4 to 8 years ahead of my unyine buddies. I had done the smart thing and took care of myself instead of having some sh ! t head tell me he could do a better job for me.

Guess that's why we're in the process of a $220 million instillation of new equipment at the foundry where I work. UAW-Skiled Trades are responsible for getting the new cast lines installed, debugged and ready to run production.

My moms first brand new car was a Vega. the thing turned into a two stroke in less than 10,000 miles. Quart of oil to a tank of gas. She still bitches about that car 30 some years latter.

+1

It was an interesting deal. I kept up on it as much as I could.

I have to tell you that if the folks on the line down in TN want to remain non-union it is fine by me. I didn't have a problem with their decision at all.

That said, I have a HUGE problem with how some of the political figures comported themselves in the last few weeks. Threatening to pull tax incentives if a plant goes union? Lies about "secret knowledge" regarding future VW plans for the plant if it votes yes on union representation? A big scare campaign from the governor down to ensure a no vote?

Disgraceful.

It is none of Bob Corker's business whether the plant goes union or not. The governor also has no business injecting himself into this plant issue. Either one of the these guys ever worked in an auto plant? Hell have they ever been to one? Maybe on one of those dog and pony shows you have to put on for some ignorant politician who doesn't know a head bolt spindle machine from a dynomometer.

When you have the power of the state coming to bear on an issue like this you have a problem. When you have a citizenry who doesn't recognize it as a problem then you have a BIG problem. Whether the plant goes union or not is almost irrelevant.

Will

Ya mean other folks tried to affect the outcome, just like the unions do?

From what I can see, the unions had a better than even playing field.

Their thuggery is in decline.

Will -

Is the UAW in favor of Right to Work? If not, then I think it is very much in Corker and Haslam's wheelhouse.

The truth hurts sometimes. All the politicians did was state the obvious: If the unions get in the new plant goes somewhere else. Plain and simple.

Right to Work? Another fine example of how the right loves freeloaders. First the law requires you to pay non-union guys the same as their union coworkers in an organized workplace and THEN they pass another law telling you that you cannot even make these freeloaders pay for their representation or make them join up.

Hypocrisy.

And yes, Jorge, those were lies. Flat out denials by VW on all counts. It was another example of intimidation by politicos where they had no business intruding. It is a fine example of the depths that some will stoop to in service to their ideology.

Union or not, that was for the workers to decide. Threatening to put them on an uneven tax field compared to non-union companies? Scabbery... pure and simple scabbery by elected officials.

If that's your idea of fair then get down on your knees and go for it I suppose. If I'd had been a worker there and allowed to vote I'd have said "yes" just to give the middle finger to the guys threatening me. Course some guys just can't get enough of that kind of treatment I guess.

Will

I lean to the right on most issues, but I am not anti-union. Anyone that has spent a few years in corporate American has been screwed before.

The CEO of Vail Resorts made all the low paid ski employees take a pay cut from $9.25 to $9. Meanwhile he pays himself $7 million a year.

So it's ok in a non Right to Work state to force workers to pay union dues. but in a Right to Work state it's not ok to force companies to pay union and non-union workers doing the same job the same pay? that hypocrisy word comes to mind for me as well...

calling a guy that doesn't want to pay a union a freeloader?

I'm sorry, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I just cannot fathom a system in which an employer is forced to pay a certain wage based on anything but merit. coupled with the fact that I would have to pay what amounts to extortion money to make a living, a union will never be something that I personally could agree with.

This is America, and if you want to join a union, more power to you. By the same token, an employer should be able to tell you to pound sand if you want to be in one. It should work both ways.

"Collective Bargaining"? Thanks, but I'll pass.

I'm in a good mood today. That's what they get called when I am feeling good.

Will

Or you call them that or worse over the internet. I'd bet you're not that mad, brash, or tough in person.

Amen!...lol

He didn't make them take anything, they accepted it.

Unions: Pay me more so I can work less. I deal with them every day and that is their goal. Without question... And regarding the VW vote, the word was put out by corporate..just like with Boeing. Saddle us with Unions and we go somewhere else. At least for now that is...

Of course Corker played it up.

A UAW win would have damaged the states, even the regions, ability to attract new business, and that most certainly is his business.

It would be great to see an "in house" organization develop from this. VW has offered their help in doing so.

^^^This!^^^

Yeah. How are you gonna attract new business and lower unemployment if you are a hotbed for union activity. Counter intuitive.

Bullschite given my experience on large to huge oil and gas projects over many years. I have had zero issue hiring competent crafts in the gulf coast, let alone Qatar, Kazakhstan and Korea that clearly out delivered on my projects in California, Alberta and what I was seeing in Queensland Australia, the latter three all strong union holds. This is exactly why we are developing projects outside the unionized areas. Simple data, that's all. Union productivity sucks and their rates are high, plain and simple supported by load of data.

"MSNBC: UAW Lost in Tennessee Because the South Is Too White for Unions"

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-...ecause-The-South-Is-Too-White-For-Unions

Go figure

Snake

You're starting to get it. Good sign, dude.

If they had had a real reason the union would be in place. But sometimes it takes more than just union BS and stupid people to make that happen.

Unions and teacher tenure....need to go out of business!!

Ain't it great. Sorry about your lack of negotiation skills. I thought you union boys got classes for that sort of thing?



Leave it up to the union management to take the moral high road, right?

You are full of chit, the only data you or your company cares about is the bottom line. Sure there are bad union craftsmen, but ive worked around both, including in refineries all over the midwest, and the non union guys are the ones who are pushed to hard and get hurt, or dont install something properly etc because they dont have as good of training or are scared that if they dont run like an idiot they're going to get fired. Trade unions are needed today, and theres a reason why the skilled trades are growing when other types of unions are declining. Safety, training throughout your career, and obviously pay.

Right to work for less, its true and there are plenty of numbers to prove it. Got hurt at work, we'll pay your immediate doctor bill, but soon as your better we're firing you, ya... no thanks.

VW Union Threatens to Block Further Expansion in the South.

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/Volkswagen-union-threat-expansion/2014/02/19/id/553646

Coop you keep saying that but it's just not true. That is what the Union management wants you to believe. I know, I've listened to it when I was there. I make more than I ever did in a union shop, and it was a good wage. I've more safety training in the last year than I have in the last 5. Sure there are chitty companies that are non-union, just as there are crappy union companies.

I also have insurance. Have at any job I've ever had that wasn't in high school. I've never paid a dr. bill when hurt at work. Go in and they ask if I was hurt at work. I've also never been fired. I have a contract as you do. The company has to follow it or buy me out of it.

I've watched Walsh Construction fire 150 guys off the bench in 20 days. I've seen them fire someone for getting hurt, making a mistake, doing the right thing, doing the wrong thing, doing nothing, doing something.... I've watched them go through 3 safety directors in 2 weeks because they stopped work because of a safety violation by their own staff.

You say the company only cares about their bottom dollar. So what? So do I. If I made more money somewhere else....I'd be there. The union cares about their bottom dollar as well. That's the reason they want the companies to join them. It's not because they care about all those workers that aren't non-union currently. They want them and their $. Anything else is simply hiding from the truth.

I would imagine being in a right to work state would have a lot to do with what a union could gain in wages and benefits. Isn't the whole point of right to work is to weaken the unions into insignificance. The right to work organization isn't made up or funded by oppressed blue collar workers is it? You couldn't tell the men that show up at my union hall every day trying to join how much better work ing nonunion construction is. A lot of them are in their 50s, been working 25 years and have no benefits or anything to show for it. They're looking just to get 10 or 15 years in on a pension and some medical benefits. I've also worked with a lot of men that commute a 1000 miles from home for the season and I couldn't imagine why if conditions were so great back home in their right to work state

I'm a research engineer with a background in heavy duty diesels and race engines. I am not a union member. There isn't one for my profession.

As for my politics I guess you could best call me a populist with nationalist leanings. Belief in economic fair play and government neutrality in these types of issues is a hallmark of populism.

As for those who believe that it is proper for those politicians in Tennessee to inject themselves into this power struggle? Well all I can say is that Hitler, Pinoche, and most other totalitarian mass murderers would agree wholeheartedly.

Something to ponder.

Will

Lets not forget Obama, Clinton, Holder, Cuomo, Pelosi..... the list goes on.

That's union lamprey for "I never had to do what the boss wanted me to do, nor did I ever have to actually do my job."

Really? Even my union "brothers" that have served multiple tours in Afghan/Iraq? The ones deployed for so GD often they miss out on promotional opportunities? The ones held in so much respect by so many here?
Brilliant statement there pal.

It isn't the first time the [bleep] azed corker jumped into an issue involving the UAW. The boy NEEDS an old fashion union beat down...

Tis funny though how he got down on his knees and begged GM/the UAW to save the Saturn plant.

I guess you liked Juan Peron then and equating Pinochet to Hitler is beyond a reach, but it does confirm your more than left of center views. Not a criticism, just an observation.

It would be in all of our best interests to consider that just maybe the folks do NOT care to be a part of an organization whose political donations (from THEIR union dues) go to a party whose long term goals are actually COUNTER to good and decent employment and decent benefits,not to mention that a whole lot of gunowning folks are constantly locked in battle with that very same political party.

I disagree with this Jorge, and here's why: both US political parties have been busy redefining what the terms left an right mean for at least a century.

Having a "conservative" stance that embraces globalization and free trade? An interventionalist foreign policy that emenates from the right?

What I am, actually, is someone who in times not too distant was considered mainstream. Before the left and right embraced identity politics, before the left embraced government handouts in lieu of a functional industrial policy, before the right abandoned "America first" industrial policy in lieu of globalization? Before then populism was considered as American as apple pie.

And no, Pinoche and Hitler had much in common. Among these commonalities an unbridled hatred of trade unions stands out. The fact that both were mass murderers who should have been hung from the nearest oak is another.

Will

Yes, you're a conservative Yankee, which is likely the most damning thing to this country.

As a student of history, I disagree with your posits on every point. And BTW, aside form being wrong on Pinochet, he is one of the very few men I admire. Oh and as far as his views on Unions were concerned, can't say that I blame them. Maybe there was a place for them a hundred yeard ago, but nowaways surely even you recognizes their political affiliations as ET so astutely pointed out.

Penguin, you are the ultimate Big Government Socialist. You wouldn't know "right" if it punched you in the nose.



Not even close.

A jealous statement Barry. Most of us wanted to go to work and do a good job, its self satisfying. The union presence keeps these little dicktaters in line as there is a code of conduct which both sides have to adhere to. In a union shop if you are insubordinate or don't do your job you are disciplined and if it continues your down the road. You are clinging to old 'false' stereotypes, I view this as a defensive mechanism.
Look at this http://youtu.be/AiqzDsO3xhs

Yep, just because he's a leper in the room with the most fingers that don't mean he ain't a leper.

So, you DID taste dicks and decided they were like 'taters!?

[color:#FF0000]Not so simple.....[/color]

Bwahahahaha. Gawd.

~shakes head sadly~

See this is what happens when you try to shoehorn US attitudes into worldwide norms. The assumption that "management" of VW would automatically be against unionization only holds water if you are ignorant of how the company is organized and prefers to operate.

Not only was Corker obviously ignorant of how VW operates he was totally backwards in how the company would respond to a "no" vote.

If they expand it will someplace other than the south. Congratulations Bob, great work.

If the workers at the plant wanted this then fine, that is more than OK. They're the ones making the cars and carrying the lunch pails. That's their perogative. But it does serve to put them at odds with the rest of the VW organization. And there are costs to doing that. If VW follows industry norms then the obvious play for them is to simply allow the plant to float into obsolescense. No new lines, no plant expansions, and no upgrades.

The mistake was assuming that what VW wanted was a '70s Detroit style of worker/management structure. That is obviously not what they utilize or want. Nor did they want a 2000's Southern style non-union plant. Speaking from my experience working with German engineers.... well let's just say that they tend to know what they want and aren't used to compromising.

Be interesting to see where this leads.

Will

so are you. Like the its "a jealous statement". Why do union guys always think us non-union guys are jealous? I don't know anyone that is "jealous" they're not in a union. ESPECIALLY if they were on a previous job.

Do you really think there is no "code of conduct" we have to follow in the work place in a non unioin shop? Do you REALLY believe that?

Oh, yeah, Will, of course VW wants another organization interfering with their operations. Doesn't everybody?

Sounds like the German labor organization is feeling threatend by the prospect of more jobs leaving their country.

Sounds familiar.

Exactly. I watched Senator Corker's interview and he was spot on. I mean just how many times do we have to show that GM has over a 16 BILLION DOLLAR nut to crack in the way of non-productive pensions and benefits before they turn the first nickel of profit. And I'll also add, you keep saying "well if that's what they wanted it's fine by me" but by your comments insinuate they were too stupid and gullible and fell for the politican's sales pitch instead of the union's typical lying bullshit?

Will:

Why do you figure VW set up in the south in the first place if they favored unionization? Did they really not see this coming?

VW is not anti union. I'd bet my last dollar they are however anti UAW.

A family member is corporate council/labor relations for an auto manufacturing supplier who has plants in Germany. We've discussed the difference between U.S. unions and German labor unions. Will is spot on with how the Germans operate. My cousin's husband also worked in plant management at an European auto plant, his observations also mirror Will's...

Honestly I am out of the loop as far as VW is concerned. Went to grad school with a few folks that work there but haven't spoken to them in years. But I have had discussions with management folks in the US big 3 who understand the way it works pretty well.

If I had to hazzard a guess it would be that the management at VW honestly did not understand the extent to which the folks in TN would resist their organizational style. And knowing a bit about how the industry works, parts centers are vital lifelines. You can't just say "I want to build a plant say, here!"

Not if here isn't an efficient place to supply parts and supplies to. I guess they looked at the south and saw the new plants and planned to take advantage of the centrality of TN to the parts suppliers of both the old plants up north and the new ones down south. Now I'm guessing they'll choose a place slightly north of TN for their next expansion.

Honestly I am a bit surprised that the UAW bought into the VW effort to unionize. Like I said their style isn't what many here like to criticize and it certainly isn't what the UAW was used to 30 years ago. Maybe old dogs do learn new tricks. And that is a very good thing. Both management and labor should have learned some big lessons from mistakes over the past few decades.

To those who like to shoehorn things into some kind of Marx worldview where you have the capitalist on one side and the proletariat on the other? This is something that really doesn't fit into that way of thinking. I could see where it would be considered a threat to those who have no other way of looking at things.

I don't think we've heard the last of this though.

Will

I would be if I made 28 dollars an hour as apposed to 40, 2 weeks vacation forever or 8 weeks after 21 years. pension vs no pension. Ya I would be damned pissed over it, no profit for the worker all to the company. My non-union sports store just loves when the union boys walk through their door and their prices reflect that. Wasn't it Raygun that says put the money in the hands of the worker (referring to taxes, but that can be said of work as well) . The code of conduct is the collective agreement aka contract, both parties have to live up to that.

No rebuttal so revert to middle school slur's.

http://www.google.com/search?q=soci...en&q=communist+party+supports+unions

Why does a openly socialist if not out right communist president support unions and unions endorse him?
Why do democrat/socialist politicians support unions and unions endorse them?
Why does the American communist and socialist parties support unions and endorse them?

Being a union member that pays dues obviously by proxy supports these politics.

Hmm... non union here, 20 years gets me the same exact deal you get. And no union to put up with.

See no reason for them this day and time.

Unions (my experience with the UAW) do more than stand around with their hands out collecting union dues.

They may well, but if I'm getting the same a union guy got, and I"m happy with it, why jump through hoops.

Most are happy because it gets them more money. I could use some more like anyone else too, but we'd just spend it anyway.

Get by just fine as is, no dues, no meetings no nothing. 20 years, 50% of my check at retirement. Can't beat that with no strings attached.

That's good for you, sincerely . Your employer obviously decided to compete in the labor market and your skill set is complimentary to the business. Many people in our local have moved on to supervisory and management positions, we seem to be the feedstock for that, to the point that the company puts 3 cents of every hour worked into our education fund per the collective agreement, this generates 10's of thousands of dollars per year.
A companies controllable cost is labor, when they want more they will come knocking on your door. My skill sets are required in heavy industry and heavy industry is pretty much all union in my area. So , I've found that it is better to work with the union and smart employers do this as well.
Unions are still needed in the modern workplace. Not only for fair wages but good working conditions.

Unions learn their lesson when they believe they can't be replaced. Management learns their lesson when they get what they pay for...and it ain't enough. Yes, they can learn. The UAW would be wise to study history and try not to repeat others mistakes.

I guess I don't consider health & safety training along with continuous job training as "jumping through hoops".

You guys need to study the history of the UCAW. Political favor is only as good as the politicians tenure.

The only person I need to talk for me is me, period. I don't need collective anything. I'm pretty sure I am the one with my best interest at heart.

In some situations, there are too many "me"s to be heard without a collective spokesman. Not that we would put ourselves in those situations.

Again, no union here, we have saftey meetings constantly, and health also including a pay you back health incentives program for participants on 2 seperate levels including days off and bonus checks etc..

I look for what I want in a job. I go there for a reason.

I don't go to a job that doesn't have what I want and then b!tch about it until it changes.

As to the hoops... I have a good friend that was a union boss locally and a rep on the national level to the UPRR locally. At least from what I've heard, you better be good to the union and do whatever they ask including walking off a job with no pay, etc.... even if youdon't agree with the particular issue they are having, if you intend to get any good out of them for you. Thats from hearing stories and conversations on hunts we both went on. Not from asking questions.

I don't ask him much as he'll get off into his stupid democrat stuff and that will then set the next argument. Grins.

Actually I don't know of many local places that don't have health and wellness and safety training.

And I get double doses since I volunteer my free time, sans pay, as fire and ems also.

I can see why you'd need continuous training tightening lug nuts.

Not necessarily so with smaller locals in my years of experience with the UAW. The UAW is a fine 'fair weather friend' to the smaller locals as long as they don't rock the UAW's boat and they continue to feed their dues into the international's coffers. If they dare to challenge the UAW's actions/decisions they can quickly wind up the proverbial 'red-headed step-child' dumped on the side of the road out in the cold.

http://www.labornet.org/news/0904/grndhog.htm

Seen it when Delphi (Nexteer) was sold to the Chinese. The Chinese agreed to allow the UAW to be the bargaining unit for Nexteer and continue running manufacturing in the U.S. IF the UAW secured a consessionarry contract from the employees. The first vote failed, the UAW explained to the employees that the Chinese were serious about the plants closing and then held a second vote (which was illegal...) which passed. Jobs aren't plentiful around here for semi-skilled labor, the choice is either take a pay cut or starve. Welcome to the global manufacturing world.

Actually the union I belonged to had a contract with the employer, so the union is the employment contractor for the company, I worked for that contractor. We negotiated with the employer to look after our pay, deductions, administer benefits etc. Over the years I volunteered allot of time to help my brothers and sisters in the areas of safety, apprenticeships, and running of the local. Positive changes were made over the years, the younger people are taking the reins now and will do a good job. With out constant maintenance we will be back to the 'good ole days'.

http://www.ccu-csc.ca/right-to-work-isnt-about-rights-and-it-certainly-isnt-about-work/

Union blocs keep voting Dem in droves and the jobs keep going elsewhere....Bruce Springsteen keeps up his Boss status with songs about it.

Must be the Tea Party's fault....

Points to ponder.

First, as a family that owns/runs small businesses, I'd bet most posting here have never run a business. What most see is the end result of years of hard work and sacrifice. From a principled viewpoint, I object to being told what I pay people. The market bears what people are worth. If you don't like making $5/hour than you happen to be living in the exact right country. Do something to make your market value worthy of more money. Forcing an employer to pay a higher rate than what the market can bear is suicide for the business. Corporate salaries have grown extravagant but they make up a relatively small percentage of a typical medium/large business bottom line. Divide a $10 million executive bonus by 1000 employees, size of a small business, and that works out to $10,000 a year. Divide $10 mil by 5000 people and you end up with $2000/year. I'd suggest the issue isn't with executive salaries. Take the same 1000 - 5000 people and force the employer to pay them 10-30% more than what the market forces dictate. 1000 people at an extra $5/hr is $10.4 mil/year extra, 5000 people at $5/hr is $52 mil/year. The math only gets worse the higher the wage discrepancy.

Second, a philosophical point to make: if a skill set is worth $X an hour, why do we need a labor union to bargain for us? In theory, we should be able to get that wage without union representation. In this day/age of mobility, why would I feel obligated to work for a wage I didn't want?

Third: There is always more to the story than is commonly or collectively 'known'. A multitude of factors contributed to Detroit - or the Pittsburgh steel industry, or US manufacturing or any other example. Paying people more than their skill set is worth is a common factor to all these examples. People needn't spend their entire life flipping burgers, or digging ditches, or picking fruit, or cleaning bathrooms - or any other menial labor job. Not everybody is cut out for college, but skilled labor pays more than many college degrees. Bottom line: do something to bring your market worth up to the standard of living you desire. Sitting on your ass and demanding $X an hour isn't the way to do it. Many examples exist that this business model doesn't work. Opportunity still abounds in this country for those willing to pick up the ball.

I get the role of labor unions in the 20th century and the mentality of employers in those days - they were greedy. With all the laws and Regs on the books today to combat those practices of long ago, I fail to see the need for a union. I've belonged to several and never felt right about them. I paid for a union card while in college to work for the summer in NYC on a big construction project. Cost me $500 in 1986. I made $10,000 that summer basically being a laborer. There is something inherently wrong with that model. I'd guess I'm about to hear numerous stories of greedy employers that would, and have, required employees to do all sorts of things to retain their employment. I've left more than one job because I didn't agree with work conditions in one form or another. I've seen first hand, in several instances, the workings of unions. I'll continue to rely on my own abilities to get me a fair wage. Its only been working that way for me for 35+ years. I don't see a need to change now. For all their supposed good, I have experience with several unions and believe the bad far outweighs the good. Their role as a repository of quality skilled labor is the sole redeeming quality I see. Other than that, I'll pass.