Bundy's lie about ancestral grazing rights.

Looks like some good reportings been overlooked.

Mainstream media doesn't mind when Obama lies to us, so why the hell would they care if some old farmer does?

There's a lot of bad behavior going on by both sides of this mess, and few people can bring themselves to recognize it.

Your link leaves more unsaid than said and it's a strictly anti-Fox organization. Peddle your BS somewhere else.

A liberal site that was created to debunk anything Fox News airs.

Now, that's unbiased media we can all believe. Wow.

This has been posted before though. It looks like his "1880s" claim might be BS.

I've watched/listened to him speak.

I don't think I'd buy a horse from the guy.

Best thing he's got going for him is the fact that it's him vs .gov

Federal gov over reaches and destroys everything in it's path, people love to hate them (myself included).

So, it really doesn't matter if the guy is fulla chit. He's an instant hero for defying the government.

Good analysis.

Oh, I doubt the guy would lie about something like that that was so easily proved wrong. More likely, he was related through his mother's side (as he claimed if you read what he actually said)to the people his dad bought the ranch from. And if his grandmother was born in the area in 1901, presumably his great grandparents lived there at the time. So, I would imagine that they got there in the late 19th century just like he said. I'm not going to count on the media to report that accurately.

It is kind of like saying, "I've lived in this town for 100 years." And someone retorting, "Wait just a minute. Records show you didn't purchase your house until 1978."

Looks to me like the BS has been peddled for some time, on this site already. The site I posted quoted a local news report.

Your hero is just a liar, and a thief.

Yep.

I haven't heard an articulate or convincing statement from Cliven, or his family, that backs his cause.

That's not to say I don't have issues with the 1993 ruling in favor of the turtles.

It's convoluted dilemma with lots of wrongs ... on every side. And a few right ones too.

Let me know when he is convicted of, or even charged with theft of any sort whatsoever.

Basically anything a conservative may say or have reported by the media, liberals will try to discredit. (Much as 4100 is doing)

Cliven's daughter may know a bit about things.



Further research indicates a long history as well.

http://www.jeffhead.com/bundy-ranch.htm

(If you take the time, that link is a pretty good history of the troubles on that place, as well as the timelines involved.)



It's pretty clear that the Bundy family had indeed run cattle on that area for a long time, and when the 160 acres came up for sale, they added that to the kitty as well.

Not ALL facts are revealed by deed research. Do one on yourself and you'll see.

But a liberal report with closer ties to environmental sympathies than facts can spin it any way they want to.

Lord knows a liberal reporter would never lie, would they?

So, who let ze ro lie? You?

Hell, show me where even the government disputed how long the family had ranched the area. Surely THAT came up in court...?

I'm not sure what he's going to get charged with, but I'd guess he's not going to get out of this thing unscathed.

Yeah, only 30 years ago, there were 52 ranchers and ranches running cows on that allotment. The article even says that Bundy's grandparents owned a farm in Mesquite. So, I would imagine they ran cows on that allotment from that farm.

I think you are exactly wrong. Up until now, he has represented himself. The government has been shooting a fish in a barrel. I'm sure that by now, he has been contacted by at least two dozen high profile attorneys and law firms who would fight over the chance to represent him pro se if necessary. The last thing the government wants to do is charge him with something and allow some of these high profile attorneys to actually get in there and scrutinize and bring to the light of day some of the things they have done. The publicity would be unreal and it might just go all the way towards creating the legislative groundswell that would abolish the BLM. With a Republican Congress being a near certainty and a Republican president being a real possibility, particularly if it is of the Rand Paul or Ted Cruz type, the BLM is going to tread very carefully until it figures out what the new lay of the land will be.

Yep, at a cost of $1 million per week for .gov goons the BLM was going to spend many millions to collect what now boils down to $250,000 worth of grazing fees rather than the $1 million amount the BLM lied about.

Here's the Las Vegas news cast report.

Bundy claims untrue

Same media outlet. In a city full of liberals whose growth of that city has taken ALL ranchers out of business in the entire county.

Reid sock puppets.

Dude... that article is the same one that your original link is based off of.

Posting it multiple times doesn't make it true.

Link


Link


Took em' a while to catch on to his lie's... But they had nothing to do with the anti-government militia's showing up to foil the government round up of cattle and to finally evict Bundy and his family from the public lands!


Phil

I wonder how many times the same news story can be linked in one thread?

You guys trying for a new 24 Hour Campfire record?

I'm about as conservative as a guy can get, but does anybody really consider Fox News, news?


Travis

It's gotta have the alternative beat.

Oh yeah, especially when compared to who/what?

I'll admit the Bundy case is less than perfect, but the man is taking a stand against the tyranny of the government and in my book deserves some support. I'm sure with all the laws on the books 99% of us criminals at some point in our lives. Something is wrong when the fed spend 3 million to evict some cows out of the desert and lets 30 million illegal immigrants walk the streets without fear of deportation.

They took Bundy's grazing rights because they needed that land to offset development around Las Vegas. That's is theft pure and simple, even if you make a law making it legal it's still theft. You can't push a man into a corner and expect him not to fight.

The one link was disputed for being anti Fox news.


The other one is the local TV station, that the fox news bashers posted. Very few of the Bundy supporters will read anything that sheds light on the subject. They would rather keep their head buried than admit how foolish they have looked.

....and .gov looks and is so forthright in their claims.

A few years in a gulag will straighten his thieving ass out.

Well I'd kinda like to see news go back to being, news.


Travis

what Bundy represents is far more important that who Bundy actually is.

Everyone just assumed he'd roll over when the feds showed up with their big stick.

He didn't, and it broke open years of pent up rage against our government.

State governments wanting their land back, citizens arming themselves to fight oppressive government agencies and Harry Reid making one misstep after another to the point he's now the focus of the news as much as Bundy is - for all the wrong reasons.

Real journalism and reporting.



Travis

I've learned to watch the first 15 minutes of the evening news - then hit a few websites during the day.

Sitting around letting an entertainer playing a newscaster on TV telling you what your opinion should be is never a good thing.

I'd prefer that Fox, MSNBC, and even CNN just stop this 24/7 cycle of redundancy and pundits. Its divisive.

OK. Currently, who do you think bests FOX?

its not about who is best, its about limiting your intake - preferably to reputable sources.

As far as networks go? They are all equally worthless.




Travis

Travis, what do you watch for nes that is not anti-2A?

Agreed.


Travis

I haven't seen a network that isn't anti-2A.



Travis

This is certainly rich and fitting from CNN and Biden:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/22/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html




Photo added for irony.

So, when .gov comes calling you recommend kissing azz, since of you don't you will probably get scathed, right. Now, if you get scathed, does that mean you were in the wrong? i guess you would be just fine with prison time if they find a fired 22 hull in your truck in DC, even though the law says to have no ammo.

Well, I do know that CNN hasn't reported any form of news over the last 6 weeks or so... it's all been (24 hour around the clock) coverage about a plane crash completely on the opposite side of the globe with maybe 2 or 3 Americans on board.


Phil

Dirty Harry has been all over this since 1997.

==============

That's only controlled by you, right?

And when you're time limited in deciding what news to watch, I can't think of any network that bests FOX.

I agree as to the redundancy part but I also believe FOX's extraordinary ratings suggest even the Libs are watching.

And the others will defend the actions of the federales that not only broke state and local laws, but thumbed their noses at the U.S. Constitution as well.

Well, it's evident they have Z Row's attention.

Another prime example of 'do as I say, not as I do'

So to back up your link to an anti-Fox News web site, you use an article by a CBS reporter.

Because, like... ummm.... CBS is so impartial and trustworthy and non-partisan?

You were a huge Dan Rather fan, weren't ya?

Don't leave Cronkite out of this.....

Yep, the Gov cares so much for wildlife preservation in Nevada. That's why they have conducted well over one hundred Atomic and Nuclear tests in that state. I seriously doubt that his cattle or anyone else's have done more damage that those tests.

F'Em

Fox News is pretty straight, it's just that BSNBC, CNN, ABC, and NBC are so far left that they make Fox look real far right. That isn't so, the others are just so far left they make Fox look that way.

The anti-Bundy association is getting organized.

just another lefty troll, that only comes out to spew crap on certain issues.

Some folks are dumb enough to believe anything, heck look at our president.


Bundy standoff - Wikipedia, the fre...ndoff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"Bundy family background

Bundy had argued in court that his "Mormon ancestors began working the land in the 1880s".[56][57] Bundy's father was born in Arizona in 1922.[58] Bundy's maternal family had some connection to Bunkerville after his ancestor, Dudley Leavitt, a Canadian who moved to Utah.[59][c] After marrying wives in Utah in 1853, 1855, 1859, 1860, and 1872[59] and selling his Gunlock, Utah property, he moved to Bunkerville, Nevada. The original location he settled was south of Mesquite, 2 1⁄2 miles (4.0 km) northeast of present Bunkerville. The community was named after Edward Bunker, Sr., the leader of the group of 23 men (the United Order) that originally agreed to move west. All property was originally shared in common, which caused great strife within the community. The communal property was then divided up, with Dudley expressing displeasure at his small portion. He then moved from the community across the river to Mesquite by 1881. When the Virgin River flooded, he moved again and was contracted to carry mail across a 180 miles (290 km) round trip distance from St. George, Utah to St. Thomas, Nevada. He placed his five families in various locations along his route. Mary Jane Leavitt's family was kept at Leavittville, Arizona.[60]

Another ancestor of Cliven Bundy was Myron Abbott.[59][d] He left Ogden Canyon, Utah to join Bunker, his brother-in-law through his sister Emily, in forming the United Order at Mesquite, serving as teacher of the workers and as the second counselor to Bunker who was made bishop of the community.[61] Abbott then married Lemual Leavitt's daughter, Lovisa Leavitt, in 1878, and her half sister, Mary Matilda in 1881. After the United Order dissolved, Abbott spent his time plowing and tending farmland in addition to transporting salt from St. Thomas to Santa Clara.[62] His son, William Abbott, married Dudley Leavitt's daughter Mary Jane at the St. George Temple in 1890.[61] He traveled through the United States on Mormon missions and served as the bishop of the Mesquite Ward (1901-1927). William Abbott wrote the story of his family settling in Mesquite and his missions across the United States in The Story of My Life, an autobiography and family biograpy.[63] "

This is no victory for anyone other than Bundy and, The Scrapbook hopes, a temporary one at that. There is a term to describe the people who surround him, and it isn�t �militia.� The word is �mob.� And what this mob has practiced is not civil disobedience but armed provocation of a democratic government which has afforded Cliven Bundy every right and privilege as a citizen.

From the conservative Weekly Standard.

Maybe you can write them and call them commies.

I think level-headed conservatives should speak out on this. The armed stand-off plays well to the most extreme hot-heads, but it doesn't play well with mainstream America. They don't want anarchy. Threatening to kill people when we don't agree with a legal decision is not going to promote support for the 2nd Amendment.

He was a smart fellow leaving all his wives along the route.

Still can't see them all together.

I don't know why but that made me chuckle. Time to just quit the post after that one.

Level headed conservatives ARE speaking out on this.

In most cases, fascism is the cause of anarchy. I frankly don't see much anarchy, but I've seen a huge amount of fascism out of the current administration.

The fact of the Bundy case you keep overlooking is that the only ones that threatened to kill people were federal agents.

As far as your concern over the 2nd Amendment goes, at what point were the supporters in violation of it?

Where is your support for the 1st Amendment that everyone in the free world agrees WAS violated by the government?

If the feds hadn't descended on him with 200 armed agents, this never would have hit the news cycle.

Due to that ridiculous start, I feel the civilian response was totally appropriate and actually fairly well done. It ended with no women shot in the head by the fed snipers, no compounds were burned down with everybody inside, and no feds were fired at by "psycho" militiamen. Everybody has stood down and it can proceed with calmer heads and almost assuredly quality legal representation. It was a situation which never should have been escalated by the feds, and personally I'd love to see an investigation into this with Congress reviewing emails and communications into and out of BLM in regards to what led to this reaction. Somebody told them to make an example of him, imho.

Maybe next time the local sheriff or state governor will have enough balls to step in and put a halt to something like this before hundreds of armed people are facing off against each other.

And now a word from our sponsor:




Well, I guess the current makeup of our top elected and appointed government leaders are both, then, right? Don't even get the folks here started about how many laws they have broken. Or WHO broke them.



Well, by all means please show us all where anyone said that. Please do. We are all waiting.... Tick Tock.

The Bundy camp always said to keep things peaceful. They are on record for saying as much.

you can always spot the liberal/progressives. They are 100% for YOU obeying the law, but consistently say nothing at all about the rampant, and massive lying that our Government does on a daily basis, and the mockery the current administration has made out of the 'rule of law'.

...If the feds hadn't descended on him with 200 armed agents, this never would have hit the news cycle...

...The fact of the Bundy case you keep overlooking is that the only ones that threatened to kill people were federal agents...

Simply untrue. Bundy has been threatening violence for years.

From 2012 The suit was filed after the Bureau of Land Management canceled plans to round up and remove the cattle last month because of safety concerns. Those concerns related to Bundy vowing to protect his property rights, The Associated Press reported.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2012/may/14/us-sues-southern-nevada-rancher-grazing-dispute/

Over the years, the Department of Justice has more than once canceled BLM plans to round up the trespass cattle after blatant threats of violence from Bundy and his supporters

https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/in-nevada-delicate-20-year-standoff-with-blm-ends-in-a-tense-roundup

I can list more quotes of Bundy and his wife saying things to the effect that "we have guns and will do whatever it takes to stop the roundup" and calling for a Range War. If the BLM had announced a month ago that "we have guns and are looking for a Range War" how would you react?

So Bundy and supporters have been making it clear for years that they would be willing to kill law enforcement.

I challenge anyone to show me another example where the BLM has showed up so heavily armed. I would think that even the most biased person would recognize it was because a "Range War" was being called for by Bundy. When you threaten the lives of law enforcement doing their sworn duty, it would be delusional to expect them to not be able to fully defend themselves.

Yep.

Here's one from this week: http://washingtonexaminer.com/obama...-says-he-wont-enforce-it/article/2547462

He said he would do what it takes to hold onto what he has.

Can't blame him there.

I still fail to see where he said he'd kill anyone at all.
He did in fact hold on to most of what he had, and the most powerful weapon he used was public support there on the scene.

So a man says what he said about hanging on to what he has, and the government response is to launch a comedic government agent assault squad that has no barriers on what laws THEY broke?

The BLM response was uncalled for and was exactly the reason that supporters rushed to his defense.

Nice tactics. DotGov played it cool with that, didn't they?

That is a bald-faced lie. And you know it.

Bundy nor anyone that supported them never said word one about killing law enforcement personnel.

Perhaps you can show me where someone has stood up to BLM to this magnitude before?

Now, for the serious questions...

Just who ARE you, and what dog do YOU have in this hunt?

Dollars to donuts says you draw a government check.

Next question is: How would you even come CLOSE to understanding what kind of issues BLM and a rancher in Nevada are having? Based on where you say you live, it must be pretty much off the radar to anyone else living up there.

quote=Buck_]........From the conservative Weekly Standard.

Maybe you can write them and call them commies. ......... [/quote]

"For the sake of argument, the Scrapbook is willing to concede that it is possible that Cliven Bundy, the Nevada rancher, ought to be allowed to graze his cattle on federal land in Nye county."

Now that's some kind of inside the beltway investigative journalism.....the Bundy property and the BLM lands in question are in Clark county......not Nye county.
Everything printed after that is white noise.

This. Especially from a well-established democrat leftie.

If a person threatens the life of a federal officer attempting to do his duty, that's a crime and they can be arrested for it.

If the person wasn't arrested... maybe the threat wasn't quite all it is made out to be by your screaming lib web sites?

I see he said this in 2012:




Wow. He said he'll do all it takes. Surprised they just didn't send a drone to take him out after that type of threatening talk. Whew.

You come up with that video all on your own? Impressive! I see what you did there.



a liberal discredited site according to Rock

Las Vegas Sun: Bundy Said He Would "Do Whatever It Takes" To Protect His Cattle. In 2013, Bundy told the Las Vegas Sun he would "do whatever it takes" to prevent the government from seizing his cattle:



This is from a Right wing political group:



Right wing group that has to be credible Rock

To think there was not any threats of violence, isn't realistic.

The officers didn't leave because they were just tired and decided to go home. The threat was very real and escalating.

Bundy had grazing rights from the state. Those rights are worth money, which .gov took away without paying him for them.

Regardless, the Az congress woman reported on Hannity this week, that Clark county bought those grazing rights back from the Feds for 375,000 in 1998.

One positive thing came out of this for sure. Folks are asking why the BLM and rangers were armed with AR-15s and why so many showed up looking like our troops in Afghanistan? It was the feds that threatened to shoot broadcasting it with a bullhorn!

Funny thing about so called official government paper work . It can say just about anything and when you try and pin it down to just one thing like a truth , it , like the government , has a way of flopping like a fish right out of your hands .
Case in point .
My grandfathers Birth certificate and certificate of live birth says under race �colored �
Anyone here ever heard of a race �colored � ?
He wasn�t African American either but Native American or to be more oliticaly correct to those who claimed they were born here so they there for are native , then I will say American Indian .

But lets say everything in those links are true and Bundy held no rights tell after ohhhh lets say 2003 .
Who really gives a rats ass ?
I sure don�t . the reason I don�t is because if you want to hold the burden of proof to actual document able material then that same burden should be held regardless of who your speaking about .
So why are people not so up in arms about obama ? I mean seriously , none of his records are even close to being consistent . doesn�t mater if its on his mom or fathers side

But as has been said , time and time again , this isn�t about turtles , cows or grazing rights , its about a government that�s completely out of control in every shape in form .
Some want to make this about Bundy , frankly again , I don�t give a dam about Bundy past that he stood up against the government .
Ill tell you something else . If your really concerned about bundy , why don�t we start asking the news media why they are not reporting the other side of obama .
Why are they not asking why it is that we not only have government controlled swat teams invading our lands and homes , but we have managed to still be mixed up in Afghanistan , but Syria , Libya, the Sudan and now he wants to go toe to with Putin and Russia ??????
Why are they not talking about that seriously ?? Mmm
Instead some here want to dig up one side of a persons family tree and claim it as proof positive . Well lets use obamas fathers side to prove the man isn�t a US citizen , never was and boot the ass and his whole cabinet out of office.

You want to know the sad part . I don�t personally care if obama is aa natural born citizen or not . At east no more then I care about Bundy�s family tree or that the US middle classes is now no longer the most prosperous . Frankly I never new we had a middle class . As its all poor or poorer .
That being said , I don�t care about the so called 1% BS either. You want money , get off you lazy ass and make something for yourself vs. living on food stamps an welfare for generation after generation

So if I'm in my house and the State Trooper has a search warrant and both my wife and I say "we have guns and will do anything it takes to stop you from coming through that door" anyone but a fool knows that's a deadly threat.

rockinbbar, I've spent a lot of time in Nevada. I worked on the family farm for 25 years give or take. My last dealings with the Feds I filed a formal complaint for the profound arrogance showed by U.S. Customs. I don't blindly take sides based on preconceived notions of if the government is good or bad. Some times it is good, sometime it is bad. Just like the public.

Even without any of that perspective I have the sense to know that an armed resistance to a Court Order isn't going to stand just because some hotheads decide they can defy the law.

I can't think of a single person that's called me liar face to face since adulthood. It's easy on the internet, isn't it?

Meanwhile, the POTUS breaks the law on a regular basis and nothing is done about it.

Yep. They always said they would do what it takes to hold what they have. Nobody ever said they didn't.

You quote unknown people saying unknown things in you last quotation. You do understand that when you report things, they have to have the source so they can be verified? Otherwise they are nothing but hearsay.

If so many people threatened to kill so many agents, how come they were not charged with a criminal offense and arrested long ago as they went to the grocery store, and were alone?

In fact, show us all where Bundy or any of his supporters were ever charged with criminal activity of any sort?

Some funny chit. It really becomes obvious that all leeches don't just suck the welfare teet in inner cities. Some would also have others fight for their freedoms and liberties. A whole new kind of entitlement I never new existed. But has reared its ugly head from multiple posters on here.


Take care, Willie

God this is old.

I wish Bundy, his cows and the goobermint would just go away.

Without this story, I think a few here would shrivel up and die.

Only 29 illegal changes to the AHCA without congressional action, but libturds don't need no stinking laws. Laws are for the unclean and mean.

what rights did Bundy have 'from the state?'. the rights in question were with the BLM, not the state.

the reason those rights are worth money is because the BLM charged a VERY low fee for grazing ($1.25 per head per month IIRC). going rate for private grazing is ~$14.50. so this means the guy with those BLM grazing rights is basically getting a very lucrative govt. subsidy. can't blame him for getting his, but I have never seen good argument for giving the Bundys dirt cheap rights to 600,000 acres of public lands for eternity except "they've been getting it so long it should be 'theirs'"

I guess folks think maintenance and overhead of resources that wildlife also use is free... what a joke...

100+ years of dollars, sweat and improvements don't mean chit to some... but that's damn worth fighting for.

Kent

One thing is certain though.... There is sure a concerted effort by several individuals here to discredit the rancher and give the government a big slap on the back.

All the while, they readily admit they have never ranched, dealt with the BLM or that system within the works of public land grazing, nor do they have experience with water rights, or even the bare essentials of the facts of the situation even are.

But they post thread after thread condemning the rancher, and siding with the BLM.

You have people that live thousands of miles from where this is going on acting like they have clue... And continue to sidetrack the issue, make comparisons to known terrorists, and blatantly lie about facts in the case.

WTF is up with that?

What is the real issue with these people? It makes about as much sense as Reid's dirty comments the other day.... None at all.

It would be real interesting to see different levels of transparencies suddenly show up so that all of us could see what ax they REALLY have to grind, and WHY.

please expound on what maintenance Bundy did and what is 'overhead of resources that wildlife also use'?

but a BUNCH of work could be done for the difference in BLM grazing vs. private grazing, yet we still owe him? wow!

He knew going in what could happen. In fact, he signed up knowing what might happen. He just never figured he'd have to uphold his end of the bargain.

And, when it came time to tell him his 20 plus years of freeloading was over, he chose Anarchy rather than accept the law as decided by 3 courts.

Bundy has simply snake-oiled the ignorant. And for those of you who think I have to pay for his money-making enterprise and I'm to simply accept it and go along with it, go join some Lib forum and discuss your new hypocritical version of entitlement.

In the meanwhile, quit dissing on the other freeloaders making bank on the taxpayer's dime. You've lost the credibility.

yeah it's hell having to listen to so many Americans that are upset that .gov is turning communist, and becoming a totalitarian state.
Of course not ALL Americans give a chit, right?

Rock, I'm sure you know how to click on a link. Those quotes are in those articles.

I reported things that had the source if you'd put out any effort to look.



I'm willing to bet you there's going to be charges filed on a bunch of those militia, and Bundy himself. Remember the dude laying in the Road with his rifle trained on the BLM employees doing. Regardless of what those employees did, he's in deep chit.

You are a fugging idiot.

Bundy has water rights to the entire 600,000 acres. He installs and maintains complete water systems that not only livestock drinks from, but all sorts of wildlife out in the desert. The electric bills for decades of pumping that water is paid by the rancher. The gasoline, parts and maintenance of the system is paid by the rancher.

Nobody said "owe" but you, amigo.

You need to get a GD clue about the ignorant schidt you post before you hit the "send" button.

Well, how about you just shut the fug up about it until then?

Quit starting threads full of liberal websites and illiterate BS to support a case that hasn't even been filed yet.

Do you think you have changed anyone's mind on what happened, or what the cause of it all was?


More importantly... Why do you even have dog in this hunt? You obviously don't know much about any of it. Please explain to us why you continually bring this schidt up?

KMA you old [bleep].

Well. That's certainly an intelligent "Thank You" for defining exactly what you asked for.

I rest my case.

You are stupid for getting involved in something you know nothing about.

Like I said,

I don't have a lot of sympathy for a guy who put his own ass in a crack then screamed about the bill coming due.

Both sides of this thing stink. Probably because the topic is becoming a rotting carcass that should be given a decent burial.

Paying your bills cures many ills.

No he's not. He's been kicking the schit out of your ignorance quite handily. You're just too dogmatic to argue actual established facts or you simply choose to ignore them as you fabricate your own nonsensical slants as to what's factually applicable to this dynamic.

No one is served by being intentionally intellectually dishonest. Make your argument by accepting established fact and then refining the issues and perhaps the solution will become apparent to all.

I told you on day one Bundy needed to lawyer up, shut up and mitigate. As each day goes by and more facts are established, you're beginning to see that wisdom but refuse to acknowledge it because you refuse to admit you didn't understand the facts.

That's on you, not those trying to educate you.

all you said is he pumps water to his cows and some wildlife might drink some. wow. I guess freeloaders have an upside now?

Let's see... BLM or the 'public' get 100 years of cost free water/road/habitat maintenance. Improving both habitat, recreation and wildlife... plus... some bucks in the kitty. If you want to understand the costs the boquillas ranch in N Az is a good example of a like sized operation. It's been in the news lately and numbers available.

I bet he'd take the deal of 14+ a month per head if the taxpayer would pay maintenance costs of current standards.

Freeloading is an ignorant statement.

Kent

I've read a couple of conservative analysts on the whole controversy. Their opinions are that legally, Bundy hasn't a leg to stand on, but that we should still be sympathetic to him because of the double standard the Feds employ (development in the desert which enviros like [eg. solar farms] are given a pass, whereas activities like grazing [unpopular with communists] are thwarted. The other argument (favoring synmpathy) is that the lifestyles of urbanites thousands of miles away are dictating policies that impoverish rural folks living on the land liberals claim to cherish so much. Leftist, urban policies and politics are destroying the lives and livelihoods of rural folk.

Jordan

It was illegal,by law and the terms of the grazing right permit, to improve upon anything.

It was a grazing permit, not a pretend it's your land and do what you think best permit.

I was hearing reports on this event on conservative talk radio while back on the east coast last week. Talk about a group that had absolutely no grasp of the facts.

I'm amazed at how many folks are ignorantly willing to side with a renegade.

And that's just a cost of doing business...on someone else's land that he's used free of charge for 20 years.

Can you just imagine the screams from the left if a right wing administration had sent fully armed military response to some hippies "trespassing" on federal land and denied freedom of speech except inside of a "first amendment" corral?

=======

I agree. Now let's get past that reality instead of relitigating a case litigated 3 times with all rulings adverse to Bundy.

Bundy had 20 plus years of profit making on our dime. The gig's up.

If he's too stupid to know his only hope is to mitigate, then the stupid will learn by the 2x4 method.

He's in a perfect position to mitigate but that dumbass just won't STFU. Before too long, and if he keeps running his month, the Feds aren't any longer going to be the only over-reaching pricks. The strategy of giving the Feds a prop is simply stupid.

No fences? no water? no roads?

Where's the law codes... or every rancher ever is illegal.

Kent

You just proved your own ignorance. Dumbass.

Do you own this site tough guy? You don't like me posting here then don't look at what I post. Prove me wrong, or STFU and stay off my threads. Nobody with half a firing brain cell thinks to highly of you or your tactics.

Take my bet!

Another one! Good form! If that's all you can come up with, you loose.

==============

One of us sure did. I think I know where the strong betting money would be.

I'm really not trying to pick a fight with you on this. But, you keep saying that what started all this is Bundy being a freeloader and not paying his bills.

Perhaps you can show us in black and white, what bills he didn't pay that made the BLM evict him from 450,000 acres of what was his grazing permit?

We are all holding our breath waiting for you to show us that bill.

Well, he would have made more if he only had to pay the higher private property costs toad quoted and the taxpayer would have paid the maintenance... instead of the public paying nothing and collecting a few sheckles...

There's a lot of ungrateful folks that are supposedly hunters, recreationists, ect that enjoy the opportunities and ribeyes that the american rancher has afforded this country.

Kent

Kent

He owes over 1 million in grazing fees.

Please continue to hold your breath.

Well, if I had to bet on someone that had ranched a BLM permit and knows what is not only allowed, but required in the way of improvements and such, especially to infrastructure like water systems in a desert environment, or a lawyer that lives in VA that never has dealt with matters such as this, I'd take YOUR money every time.

No.

The government says he owes about a $ million in fines. I have not seen any bills from them yet posted anywhere.

Are you CERTAIN that him being in arrears of not paying his grazing fees is what got him kicked off of 450,000 acres of his lease in 1993?

Not to mention they are too stupid to see that when they ban ranching, hunting and other recreation gets banned along with it.

Laffin.

Even Bundy admits he hasn't paid his fines or grazing fees to the BLM for 20 years.

But because you haven't seen a bill, it's just another left wing liberal lie!


You're an irrational fruit cake. It's been nice exposing you.

If Bundy lied, it wasn't because "FOX let him".

If he did lie (I don't really know), it because that is his nature.

Read the court orders that have been put in front of you at least 10 times over the last month.

Until you read and comprehend the law of this case, as clearly established, you're just babbling.

If you want to push an Anarchist protest against the laws of courts established by the same constitution you argue has been violated by the Feds,you have two options. Accept Bundy's version of constitutional law or the federal and appellate court's version. This is still a nation of laws, not a nation of Bundy's illiterate interpretation of them.

If Bundy's your hill, I would completely refrain from calling others dumbasses.

So everyone has now forgotten what this was about?

============

Bundy is simply relying on his last hope,save for retaining a "inside powerful lawyer" who can save him from his own recklessness.

The lawyers don't seem to have helped him much the first three times he went to court. Has anything changed?

You can have the best lawyers in the world, but it's obvious he's in a bad position from a legal standpoint.

He had public opinion on his side after the goobermint swept in like the 82nd Airborne> He should have lawyered up again and tried negotiate a quiet settlement.

Maybe he could have kept the rights to part of the range in question.

Instead, he's out barking like a dog and doesn't realize his 15 minutes of fame is coming to an end.

The public will become bored with the story and the BLM will sneak back in and dispossess him.

I comprehend WAY more about the law in this case than you do about ranching on a BLM permit. That is for sure.

You also know that I have said several times that I don't agree that Bundy did everything right, and that his legal hold would have been better to pay fees on the reduced permit and then fight over size and numbers.

I won't even argue that probably BOTH sides are breaking some sort of laws. But, I believe the Constitution has been infringed upon by the government, and not by Bundy. Bundy may have broken BLM public grazing policies and had civil judgments rendered against him, but as far as I can tell, he has been charged with no criminal violation, nor with violation to Constitution.

Admittedly, it does rile me a bit when some eastern dumbass tells me that what started all this was Bundy not paying his bills or fees. That is ignorance at it's best. To continue to argue that is the root cause of all the trouble is just plain stupidity.
And Bob, you are still a condescending prick. In case you forgot.

Saw this one today . . .

F you, douchebag. Do you actually think land and water rights are exclusive to you folks? JHC, please tell me you're not that stupid.

The most esteemed land and riparian rights lawyers are on the east and west coasts, dimwit. They go where the money is, of course.

Spare me your condescending prick HS,amigo. You've defined it over the last month.

I'm sorry facts have knocked the schit out of you but until you deal with them, I'll only give you the attention you deserve.

Here's another.

He's very emotional.

Going in the Derby & Hawk file.

You think he has been competition for you, the master?

Don't worry he has a lot to work toward if that is his goal. You've got campfire condescending prick status all but nailed down.

I know we needn't encourage you not to rest on your laurels .

In all seriousness, this back and forth has made for some great theater.

Now that's a real funny one. Pot meet kettle.

Real cool Rock.

Sadly, I think this right here is true as much as I've enjoyed the lively discussion it's produced.

That's the only sensible thing he's said. LOL

Where's Gerry Spence when you need him?

Back atcha azzhole.

Who said land and riparian rights are exclusive to the West? Not me. But when you try to tell me what is allowed and not allowed per a BLM lease permit, then shift focus from that when you are informed you are wrong about certain things, you are not making your case, Bob.

I deal strictly with the facts. Not illusion, such as slimebag lawyers resort to when they are not smart enough to make a cognitive argument.

Do I side with Bundy in everything? Nope. But, to dismiss the clear violations of law by the feds in the manner of how they handled things, and the constitutional violations by the government needs to be sided against.

The facts of what started the whole mess needs to be explained. The ignorance of fees being the cause of all this needs to be dispelled.

So, if I look bad for cherry picking what I choose to enlighten people with, or I look bad for saying that the government could have handled things in a manner that was more acceptable and allowable under the law, then so be it.

At least I won't look bad for the wrong reasons.

==============

I'm sympathetic to the elder guys who only know the way they know. Change affects everyone;abrupt,unecessary force of that change affects even moreso.

I have given the best sound advice I know how to give being that I know how this works legally after 26 years of practice. Bundy's tit is in a ringer. The fact is, Bundy knows that as well. Instead of bringing in the honorably intentioned men who truly don't understand the law, pool up your money and get Bundy a lawyer who can mitigate enough salvation to save his mouthy ass.

For those of you who think the government didn't win the day in being wise enough to avoid bloodshed and death over this HS,after courts of law have ruled, shame on what you've become.

Well, it sure beats where public opinion and other events would be right now if they hadn't. I wouldn't call looking like a bunch of Keystone Cops going to the circus a solid "win" though.

fuggin' commies,...

Dude, you look bad because you ignore facts.

And,to accept and argue within established facts should be a bastion and foundation of conservative principles. To call folks liberals and commies because they feel constrained to deal with the reality of proven facts is a character flaw of yours, not those you lamely attack, without any substantive basis whatsoever.

fuggin' commies

This man, I'd trust.

Your silliness cracks me up.

Shouldn't you be thinking of some clich�s to back up your arguments supporting 3rd party votes in the general election?

Spare me your replies. I don't have time for selfish idiots looking for approval amongst their .05%ers.

I'm certainly no expert on these matters but what are the odds of Bundy being able to afford a lawyer good enough to defeat harry reid and his son in court? The reid's have millions in donations from the solar company and can hire any lawyer they want(and probably any judge as well).

Well Bob,

Judging by your response to the initial post of this thread: "Militias head to Nevada rancher�s standoff with feds: We�re not �afraid to shoot "

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth..._Militias_head_to_Nevada_ran#Post8769824


And the judging by others reactions to that post you made, any personal attacks toward your own character being flawed in fact would have plenty of substantive basis.

Biggest mistake the guy made was in the beginning, going into the courts against the government and representing himself! But by loosing and loosing the appeals to boot, he's now just pretty much [bleep]-out-of-luck!

Phil

AFP (American's for Prosperity) have come out and are supporting the Bundy cause.
Two affiliates of the Koch-funded Americans for Prosperity are helping conservative media promote the cause of a Nevada rancher who has made violent threats against the federal government.

If anyone didn't notice, in the last elections the Koch Brothers tried to buy the elections of several states. Mine being one of them. They spent millions tryng to get very conservative candidates in office. They bought up close to 300,000 acres in Montana alone, and are now trying to trade for the best hunting lands that are on public. Their not making friends here.

So the press shenanigans being played out by Fox and all the right wing blogs across the nation are more than likely going to end up with Koch finger prints on them. This is what happens to our system when you let money in politics. The focus is on Reid, and I'm not a supporter, but who would stand to gain with him gone?

Koch's crew in the last election was notorious for lies and deceit.
Koch brothers ties to Bundy.

Maybe bundy knows Koch will support him with lawyers, and money this time around. Someone on here said follow the money once, and I think eventually it will show up pointing right to the Koch Brothers. Playing the right has never been so easy.

Bundy can have his pick of lawyers pro bono now.

He doesn't have to stoop to get one. He just has to bathe after being around one all day.

fuggin' commies

========

That's exactly what I said and I meant it. It's all about facts,the law and educating the less than fortunate as to what they might consider dying for with the added help of stay at home,computer freedom fighters such as yourself.

All that and the 2x4 method you completely misunderstood.

How much more help do you need,lightweight?

Liberals,...progressives,...democrats.

Call a spade a spade,...

they're fuggin' old school commies.

ya real funny chit there .
you think the outcome would have been diffrent .?

Nevada rancher and former Shoshone chief's range war with BLM predates Bundy standoff


the last part really gets me as he didnt figure that out a hell of along time ago

+1

The legal system was used for the theft of this man property rights for the benefit of others. If you can't see how that is wrong, I pity you.

Besides, if Obama can pick and choose what laws to enforce, why can I choose what laws to obey?

I'm glad you saw the humor in the fact that Americans were squaring of at a potential battlefield. I guess that humor was lost on others as well.

FWIW, I agree with you on most things.

Bundy is guilty in the eyes of the court that judged him. There is no doubt. That's a given. Your Court Orders that you wave show that.

Where we part company is where you feel like the law is always right, simply because it's the law.

I feel like Bundy got a raw deal because the changing elements of government now show preferential treatment to radical environmental groups, and allow themselves to become the evictors for them by pushing out folks like Bundy.

We need to change that. We need to change it legislatively, and the way it is dealt with administratively as well when it comes to the dangerous clusterphuck way the BLM handled it.

I AM very conservative, and DO believe in the law. But, I'm smart enough to know that just because it IS law, it doesn't automatically make it right.

Are any of you really suppressed?

It turns out that Fox News hero Cliven Bundy is not just a lawbreaking moocher � he�s also a big, fat liar
Read more at http://www.newshounds.us/cliven_bun...ews_let_him_04222014#tlevfzU3P0wDY5S1.99

Tale a few mins and look up one of Alaska's favorite Tea Party candidates for federal office...Joe Miller...Also a "awbreaking moocher � he�s also a big, fat liar" and is running for Congress with full 21 guns a blazing by the gullible conservative up here.

Link: ww.bestoftheblogs.com/Home/post/Alaska-s-Joe-Miller--Another--Conservative--Leech

I say send the freeloading welfare queen to a gulag or possibly a work camp.

Where we part company is your thinking that Bundy can ignore the law by inciting violence against the government, especially when the law was abundantly clear on all points.

"I don't like it" isn't a argument for folks over 2 years old. Willingness to die over it suggests we have many not wiser than two year olds.

Egging it on from your rocking chair on the sun side of your porch is pathetic.

I have friends that shoot "suppressed", and I imagine that as a little girl, your education was "suppressed".... But, then I am not really surprised at your Jr. High level assessment.

FWIW, I agree with you on most things.

Bundy is guilty in the eyes of the court that judged him. There is no doubt. That's a given. Your Court Orders that you wave show that.
=======

Hell man, even my respected buddy Gregg wants to label me a clown and wrap me upside the head on this one.

I have to stick to the facts and the law though and you old [bleep] need to make some room for the changes going on in this world. Laws [bleep] with my happiness too but I think it best to deal with them in fashions other than widowing and orphaning folks.

Everyone should read this piece on how the BLM has been going after ranchers in Nevada.

Government Thugs

Well, I guess I'm about the only one that can relate to being GLAD that the founders of our country "didn't like it", and were willing to die over their beliefs then.

I never said violence was the answer to this problem though. But once again, you elude to the law being right, yet again. And yes, it was abundantly clear. So was the part where the feds violated it from many facets.

Yup. The law will prevail. No doubt about it.

Don't like the law? Vote for a guy who will change it. Don't try to change it at gunpoint. It makes people really grumpy.

And the constant "commie" insults? Ever heard this one?

Insults are the last resort of insecure people with a crumbling position trying to appear confident.

Mog:

It pains me to see you showing your stupidity again! This thread is not about Obama! Do you wake up screaming in the middle of the night OBAMA!!!!

Yet another fuggin' commie,..

Where do these sumbitches come from?

The guys I voted for aren't in favor of this. But a bunch of you [bleep] from the more enlightened areas of the empire vote for asshats who pass these laws that send more [bleep] and asshats down here to oppress me. So, tell me again how my vote matters?

They gonna have to be fed to the hogs 'fore it's all over.

And, FWIW RBar, you're good people and I respect you and your advocacy of this misguided faux rancher. We just vehemently disagree with each other on this one and that's ok. That's what makes for a good horse race.

If ever you were out this way, you'd still be most welcome to the hospitality I could offer you.

Walt, do you really believe that obama has no idea of the atrocities harry has going on down there. Wait, of course you do. Change indeed!

Newshounds, lying POS liberal rag, Go have Skeeters face tattooed on yer azz putz.

That is what I have been saying. It needs to be changed.

But, just so you know, Officer.... It makes people really grumpy to see agents of the government behave the way they did in that whole fiasco as well.

If people rallied around Bundy, it may not have been so much that they thought he was right about all things, it was seeing jackbooted thugs charging in locked and loaded against a family that had NO criminal charges on them whatsoever.

Well, talk about lying POS liberals, Look who popped his head up out of the chitter.

You stupid somebetch, if you would have read the blog, it had a link to the TV new report out of Las Vegas Nevada, news team 1.

Channel 8 news now.

Those liberal azz farts just was the delivery service to the story. Your just jealous because there's not enough room for a skeeters face to be tattooed on your pecker.

sausage,...

I'm not sure why so many want to argue the point about what Bundy has or hasn't done regarding grazing fees.

Those militia folks aren't camping out on his doorstep because they are anti-grazing fees or free range cattle , they are there because we've come to the point that every damn government agency believes they need a swat team to take out anyone that says "F-YOU bastards"

Instead of focusing on Bundy saying he'd do what it takes, focus on why the BLM had a swat like response team ready to go in and take out an old man. Why in the world would the Bureau of Land Management have a tactical response team?

Yea, maybe Bundy ultimately will need to pay something once we sort out whether the BLM was swinging their dicks around under the guise of saving a turtle to run out ranchers , but I really don't give two [bleep] about that - other than whatever problem he has with the BLM should be worked out amicably...or maybe the BLM was determined to end his way of life and when he said no, they were determined to end his life....period.

Whatever the goal, when you decide to bring your in house swat team out there to do a cattle round up, your intentions don't pass the smell test - and that's been happening a whole damn lot with this overreaching government of ours. Today its Obama, but its just as likely to happen with an old guard republican running the show as well. This just didn't happen in the last 6 years.

There ain't no "lawyering up" for that.

There seems to be a large number of folks missing this point.

This voting that I hear about. How does that work? Where and when do I get to vote to get rid of the BLM? Who voted to set it up? Do I get to vote on what land they get to charge grazing fees on? Maybe I can vote on how they classify land?

You've got me excited now. Maybe if we can't vote, we can do something like call our congressmen and tell them what we want. I know that if we get enough people they won't ignore us, right? I mean, they didn't ignore the ninety five percent who were against the bailout or the seventy percent who were against Obamacare. So, I'm sure that the voting and public opinion thing will work swimmingly won't it?

Point taken.

To quote this again:

Quote

"America is at that awkward stage. It�s too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards."

+1 Lots of people that are far too dense to see the forest for the trees.

Peddle your leftist trash elsewhere

And you ain't worth one horse apple from any horse that Cliven Bundy owns.
Thanks for coming out of your liberal closet and exposing yourself. We know how you dumbaxxe libs play your BS game and we ain't falling for it.
Troll away poacher.

Your middle of the road critcism ain't worth warm spit.
Thanks for exposing yourself for the "useful idiot" that you are.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth..._Row_lies_and_pisses_off_our#Post8805028

Hey go along - to get along, if you trust this guys anal-ysis then bite me.

Oh, he hates the gubamint (and I do too) so his OPINION of Bundy must be right - NOT.
Try to figure out when you are being played ....duuh!

I can't believe I read the whole thing.
thing I agreed with most?
FUGGIN COMMIES!

Just so we keep in context in the terms of 'freeloading'...

Ranchers built that country many of us use and take advantage of. Without their hard work and investment what was waste land in many areas are now productive, both in range management and wildlife habitat. The price was sweat and money over many generations.

This is nothing different than the government pushing indians off land they had first... if Bundy wants to play Geronimo, that's his choice.

Does anyone know what price .gov calculated for 100+ years of improvements from Bundy's family on that lease? Bet it wasn't chit...

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/media.../legislation.Par.3647.File.dat/FLPMA.pdf

(g)
Whenever a permit or lease for grazing
domestic livestock is canceled in whole or in part,
in order to devote the lands covered by the permit
or lease to another public purpose, including dis�
posal, the permittee or lessee shall receive from
the United States a reasonable compensation for
the adjusted value, to be determined by the
Secretary concerned, of his interest in authorized
permanent improvements placed or constructed by
the permittee or lessee on lands covered by such
permit or lease, but not to exceed the fair market
value of the terminated portion of the permittee�
s
or lessee�
s interest therein. Except in cases of
emer
gency
, no permit or lease shall be canceled
under this subsection without two years�
prior notification.

Pesky freakin laws.

Dave a dumbass Liberal huh? So is 5sDad for agreeing with him and so is Rancho because he made a reasonable post.

Put the bottle down.

They happen to be 3 of the finest folks on this forum and Libtards they ain't. They aren't freaked out malcontents either...

Labeling everyone a liberal who disagrees with you regarding Bundy's claims is comical.

That's like me accusing all you revolutionaries of being McVeigh supporters.

Sad thing is, in your case it's probably not for off the mark.

Real news? No, but compared to the propaganda leftist stations it competes against at least you sometimes get the udder side. I have stopped watching, going on two years now. Internet and Tea Party emails mostly. WGN for local shootings in Chicago how they're caused by "guns" and Tommy Skilling for what the weather aut the range is gonna be like the next day and his latest global warming pitch..
___________
Is WGN big out west? Politically they've changed from what they were in the past.

Peddle your right wing Tea Baggin BS elsewhere. I'll leave when you do.

41, your people's way wouldn't let us own a gun.

I don't give a sh*t if he lied or not (for the record I don't believe he did), but even if he did, it don't matter to me. He stood up and told the governent to go f*ck themselves, therefore he ranks extremely high in my book.

Gun owners who vote democrat are the stupidest sob's in this country. I don't know if it's ignorance or the free handouts, but it's hypocrisy at it's finest.

When Injustice becomes law, Resistance becomes duty. -Thomas Jefferson

another effing loonie wakes up. Northern Dave, a LIBERAL? Maybe if you actually visited the forum now and then, you would have a clearer understanding of who is what. You have zero cred. Just saying...................

Do you know where that money is supposed to go... by law?

He's already putting that much back into the land every couple years.

Kent

"IF YOU LIKE YOUR DOCTOR, YOU CAN KEEP YOUR DOCTOR. IF YOU LIKE YOUR INSURANCE, YOU CAN KEEP YOUR INSURANCE...PERIOD"

"IT WAS ALL ABOUT THE VIDEO..."

So many lies, so little time...

LMAO!!

+1

I believe half of it is supposed to go back into habitat.

Are you saying because he ran water lines he doesn't have to pay what he owes because Bundy believes it's Nevada state land and because he made improvements on the property?

That's what it sounds like. Sorry, but Cliven Bundy doesn't get to decide who controls that property.

It's a well established fact who controls it.

Nope, my context is very specific.

He controls the grazing as long as he keeps possession. If he ever moved off he would never get back on. He has chosen to be Geronimo and defy BLM with ancestral heritage... it's the card he's got.

Regardless of that, he continues to invest large sums of money into the property annually.

So in the context of 'freeloader'... some members here slept through range management and economics class.

Kent

I don't get that? He is putting $500,000 a year into the land? where does he get that kind of money? 500 cows a year, @ $1000ea? no operating expenses, no taxes no fuel, no salaries?

Can you do the numbers for me?

Sycamore

Strong words by your friends on the Bundy/BLM news.
Like they had a dog in the fight, which they don't.
So if they talk, walk and post like dumbaxxe liberals, I'll draw attention to that fact.
You must look like skat for sticking your nose in other peoples business.
I'm sure they can defend their retarded posts all by themselves without your 2�.
So put the bottle of Ex-Lax down and go away.
Or just go away

What's that you say, son of obozo?

And sometimes you think you know somebody and you really don't.

�So Northern dave farts and Mannlicker falls outta bed?

So what's your thoughts on your savior and king Bundy now?

What does, oh, never mind.

Well, ok then. Bundys not perfect like ze row.

You know the sad part about this whole debacle is the turtles probably thrive on cow [bleep]...

Yep, or tumble bugs.

I don't get that? He is putting $500,000 a year into the land? where does he get that kind of money? 500 cows a year, @ $1000ea? no operating expenses, no taxes no fuel, no salaries?

Can you do the numbers for me?

Sycamore

how come these ...demoncrate / trolls / come out of the wood work...... to read and reply to this chit???????

I already answered this in my second post in this thread... of course you redefined/limited my context opposite of my previous comments.

And you've already did some numbers... don't let me get in your way.

You said 500,000 I didn't. I said a couple... and couple defined in the informal... Oxford dictionary...

3 � informal An indefinite small number: [as pronoun]: he hoped she�d be better in a couple of days we got some eggs�would you like a couple? [as determiner]: just a couple more questions North American clean the stains with a couple squirts dishwashing liquid.

Never the less I did say to reference the Boquillas as a similar sized operation. Sitting in different meetings with G&F presentations of the Boquillas ranch costs for water, roads, fence maintenance 500,000 was the number used.

750,000 acre Boquillas vs 600,000 acre Bundy lease.

500 cows? I have no idea how many he's running... but if that's all he's running he isn't using 600,000 acres... and this is really funny... 500 cows equal 8100.00 per year lease, 162,000.00 for twenty years... 4050.00 back per year to maintain 600,000 acres...

all this bullchit for 8100.00 per year... LOL

Or someone's math's wrong...

Kent

Actually they don't. Makes sense, ruminants are so efficient they don't leave much left.

IIRC about 5% of tortoise diet is ulungate fecal matter, prob'ly has more to do with trace elements and/or microbes than anything.

Birdwatcher

fertilizing the plants the tortoise eat

KRP,

OK, use your math, then.

The data I've seen is formerly 600 cows for 600,000 acres, reduced to 150 cows for 150,000 acres in 1993.

Feel free to compare Boquillas with Bunkerville, after factoring relative elevation, annual precipitation, vegetation type, and carrying capacity.

I don't know how much of the "$1 million" is for grazing fees and how much is fines and interest.

How much do you estimate Bundy is putting back into the land each year?

If you believe "He's already putting that much [He owes over 1 million in grazing fees.] back into the land every couple years.", how much do you believe he is putting back into the land each year?

Also, do you have any estimates of how much the BLM or the NRCS put into the land over the years?

Sycamore

Still better than "Obama lied and 4 people died" You savior and king killed 4 people with his and his cohorts lies or doesn't that matter.

If Bundy did lie, no one was killed. I'd say Bundy was a better man than what Skeeter could ever dream of being.

Again you are changing my context...

I'm discussing the 600,000 acres BLM themselves claim is in contention. I understand the Bunkerville allotment is 158,000, but the temporary closure map and BLM in their own words are referring to the 600,000.

From one of the linked sources...

According to the notice, the public will be kept out of pockets of land within the described closure area during the impound operation, but the remainder of the 578,724 acres will remain open.

So I will compare it to the Boquillas, but in the context I already established here multiple times. Water, fences, roads(access), improvements.

From the Boquillas site...

http://huntbigboranch.com/

400 miles of pipeline, 110 steel storage tanks, 150 water troughs and 130 dirt stock tanks. Big Bo maintains hundreds of miles of roads, a thousand miles of fencing, plus corrals and holding pastures.

and from AZ g&f...

http://www.azgfd.gov/w_c/documents/...CommitteeMeetingMinutesFeb92013FINAL.pdf

Maintenance costs run about $500K annually, for water developments, pipelines, earthen tanks, fences and 350 miles of roads. There are 393 miles of pipeline, 110 steel water storages, 150 steel troughs and 130 huge earthen stock tanks, as well as several hundred miles of fence with 42 access points. The Department owns and maintains 5 waters on ranch.

from my previously linked... The Federal Land Policy and Management Act of 1976...

Such rehabilitation, protection,
and improvements shall include all forms of range
land betterment including, but not limited to, seed�
ing and reseeding, fence construction, weed con�
trol, water development, and fish and wildlife
habitat enhancement as the respective Secretary
may direct after consultation with user representa�
tives.
The annual distribution and use of range bet�
terment funds authorized by this paragraph shall
not be considered a major Federal action requiring
a detailed statement pursuant to section 4332(c) of
title 42 of the United States Code.

Each agency and even law recognizes this maintenance as habitat, wildlife, recreational enhancement.

When I worked summers in High school, early 70s, on my cousin's ranch that had 23,000 acres of lease. Most of my time was spent on water maintenance, along with a couple of real hands. Just cleaning silt from remote dirt tanks involved driving a Cat many miles before and after the actual work. Fuel, equipment maintenance and labor add up quick. Old pipe was always leaking, we fixed it on the cheap, strips of old innertube wrapped and baling wired on each end, didn't last more than a couple years in the sun... but it was cheap, beside the walking miles of line in some nasty country.

Here's some dynamics...

100+ years of rancher built improvements/access that also benefits/expands wildlife/recreationist/hunter opportunities.

These improvements have value as recognized in the FLPMA act.

Bundy owns that value.

If the land was raw today and BLM was to lease it at a reasonable allotment for the size for 10 years. The lessee would not invest the millions it'd take to recreate what is there now.

If the BLM reduces the allotment to a number too small to maintain, then the rancher will be forced to abandon infrastructure (investment) while reducing land use. That abandonment will deteriorate those improvements/access to uselessness for both wildlife and recreationists. We lose our main partner in public land management.

If BLM forces the rancher off, under law the taxpayer is supposed to foot the bill for reimbursement of improvements... I'd like to see what Bundy was offered... and then have the eventual deterioration of water sources/access, effectively removing wildlife and recreation interests in the area.

This is just another tool to remove the public from public land... remove the logging industry and allow land to return to nature, create conditions for the monster fires we have in the west now, which allow preemptive closures like we are experiencing in Az now. I can't even go shoot in the NF 5 miles from my house as I write.

Closure/abandonment of roads to create de facto wilderness ares, allowing land to return to nature.

Add wolves as predators to remove wildlife and public recreation interest... allowing land to return to nature.

Reduce or remove ranching industry to allow land return to 'nature'.

If you think water sources on BLM are easy or cheap to maintain by state agencies or the public you're mistaken... the catchment projects I've worked on that Az g&f build or maintain, consists of years of paperwork/environmental studies, and 10s of thousands per project paid through the HPC... even with a volunteer work force. A ranch of 600,000 acres would have 100+ water sources.

If Bundy would have abandoned that property 20 years ago it would be a wasteland now... and if he ever is forced off it will be in the future... right now it's still viable because of his stubbornness.

Anyway...

This isn't about the 16.20 per head annually for 150 cows(2340.00 a year), or even the 200.00 per day fine per cow... which I guess gets it over a million.

It's about the future of our public land and who's on the side of the best management of that land.

Bundy's daughter said in an interview that the money coming from the feds stopped before Bundy quit paying his 1.35 and was another issue of contention at the time... who knows, it's a news report...

My math is... it takes a chit load of personal work and money to maintain 600,000 acres, and it takes producing a product and profit to afford the improvements staying a benefit to all users.

Class over.

Kent

"Class over."

...and a good one, too.

Bravo !

GTC

You need to go and plead Bundy's case for him. Maybe he'll get a better more sympathetic judge? Maybe not too.

My commentary isn't about legalities in today's liberal society... it's about reality and consequences.

Kent

I'll bet that was educational for a kid from Staten Island!

Huzzah!

Sycamore

Kent,


Boquillas is corporately run, by a hard-nosed old cattle-buyer, who has the capital to make it work. And the quality of land to make it worthwhile.

Bunkerville it doesn't compare to the Boquillas, for the reasons I asked you to address before: elevation, precipitation and vegetation type (carrying capacity)



Boquillas is 10 times the ranch that ALL of Cliven Bundys allotment was in 1993, (then 600,000 acres). (measured by what matters, productivity)

Cliven Bundy's allotment, since 1993 ( now 160,000? acres) is 1/4 of what it was.

So you are trying to compare the investments of two ranches, that differ in productivity by a factor of 40!

You are also insinuating that ONLY Bundy did or paid for any infrastructure work on the ranch.

You haven't touched on how much the BLM and the NRCS (used to be SCS) have put into the Bundy ranch over the years.


If you go back and look, YOU were the one that claimed Cliven was " already putting that much back into the land every couple years."





I don't doubt that ranching is hard, it is even harder now that wages, fuel, trucks, medicine, vets, etc cost more.

It's even harder on sub-marginal land (creosote bush?)

You've got to get real that there probably wasn't much infrastructure out there, most of the cows didn't get far from the Virgin is my guess, (another problem).


Sycamore

Well...

President Barack Obama�s request for the 2015 fiscal year calls for an increase of $2.8 million in funding for the agency�s wild horse and burro program, and would allow it to continue studies to develop more effective contraceptive drugs and techniques.

There ya go...

Kent

My wish is that wild horses and burros could be extirpated. (shot)

A bounty of $25/head would provide employment, dog food, and increased forage for cattle and wild game.

Just my wishful thinking.

Sycamore

Hey, Captain Lib-Soc.

Let's get some badazz ponies and pack rigging, and see who can get one packed and on the trail without losing and dangling chit all over the place.
Your "I'm a REAL Arizonan schtick reminds me of Bundy's little problem with his MOUTH.
You ever ridden for the chairman of a provincial cattle association ?
Kicked 1300 head of Two and three year olds loose in God's country for the Summer, and been charged with looking after their welfare ?

Blow me, Sic


GTC

Ranches vary. Hell, the terrain varies on the same ranch pretty good in places. Especially one with half a million acres or more.

Syc, cattle don't stay by the river, because if they did, there wouldn't be anything but a muddy trickle through the desert.

Nearest river to the desert BLM that I ranch is the Rio Grande about 120 miles away. So, they put in pretty sophisticated water systems that feed troughs through the area. Pastures are usually separated by where the water is in relation to graze. A pasture fence does it's job by keeping cattle out of a certain area, as much as it does by confining them to a given area. The water systems are indeed what lets ranchers take advantage of large areas of desert, and the cattle are indeed spread out on the desert.

The water systems take constant monitoring and maintenance. All you have to do is neglect checking and let a pasture run dry of water in the desert, and in a couple of days you have enough dead cattle laying around to eat your profits for the last 5 years.

If what holds true about most of the West, the bottomlands and river bottoms were homesteaded and deeded, while the vast stretches of desert were where most of the grazing permit lies. Even in the mountainous areas, you see the valleys and creeks as being deeded, and the high mountain ranges as being natl. forest lands.

The deeded lands along the rivers are usually used for growing hay or other farm use that feed the cattle in the times when there is not enough graze, like in winter. That land isn't used to graze cattle much, because there are better productive uses for it.

So, in essence , you are agreeing you don't have jack-schidt experience with desert ranching, right?

You didn't have to tell us, we already knew.

Sycamore

I changed the title on this post, because I really didn't care for the old one.

I have never met Mr. Cliven Bundy, and I have no reason to doubt his integrity. (nor any desire to disparage him or his family)

I do believe he has been mislead about his rights, and his relationship to the BLM, vis-a-vis the family ranch.

Sycamore

He isn't quite as well spoken as Hage, for sure.

But all it takes to see that same premise Bundy is using was successfully used by Hage to win court cases against the same agencies and dealing with the same type circumstances of being pushed off the land, is to let yourself see it.

You don't have to watch the whole thing to understand what they are doing here, but anyone that does will be the wiser for it.

http://vimeo.com/8520897#at=0

Rockinbbar,

You've pretty much described the Virgin... " a muddy trickle through the desert"

This is some barren-ass country, and 120 degrees in the shade, if there were shade, which there isn't. Basically runs from Mesquite to Lake Mead.

I understand the strategy of creating watering points to spread out the animals and access forage. Also salt is used to some extent to move cows around here.

It is unclear to me how much of that infrastructure was provided by .gov and how much by the rancher.

Sycamore

p/s nice 1911 in your avatar.

One of the differences in the cases may be the surface water, ditch rights. I think those were part of the 1866 law, and part of Hages case.

Not so sure if windmills and plastic pipe, put in in the 1960's and 1970's, with govt money, will hold the same force of precedent.

Sycamore

Thanks. I've had that Colt for years. Built it around a very basic 1911. Gave it a combat hammer and beavertail grip safety, match trigger that's adjustable for travel, adjustable sights, match barrel and bushings. It shoots pretty well.

To answer your questions about who pays for what:

Sometimes it can be a cost share for the installation. Usually the government agency provides the material and the rancher provides the labor to install it. Plus, the rancher pays the entire costs of maintenance for as long as he uses it. If the pump in the well quits, the rancher pays to have it pulled and replaced. He pays the electric or other fuel bills, and for someone to look at the entire system every 2-3 days to insure nothing is wrong....but, there usually is, so they fix it.

The Cost Share that I mentioned must be applied for. Many times YEARS in advance, and then undergo a couple of more years of environmental impact studies, archaeological studies, and then letting a 20 year old girl redline the project because she has a degree in environmental sciences.

It's just not worth all that to get some new black plastic piping and a few water tubs, so most ranchers just replace and repair what is needed as they need to. The less noise you make, the less trouble you'll have, and the for damn sure the less regulation you will have to swallow.

FWIW, I agree about the wild horses and burros.

The best birth control measure is a 170 gr Power Point out of a Winchester.

Those feral animals that the liberals are so romantically delusional about are NOT the real mustangs trotting through their dreams any more than the crossbred killers they keep releasing and protecting are Mexican wolves.

I would personally lead the effort to kill 'em all, and deliver them in a pile to the feet of the idiots that keep protecting and importing them.

The same premise applies when you consider that the water is what makes the land usable. Bundy does own the water rights. And without the water the land is pretty unusable.

That is why the BLM was destroying the water infrastructure with bulldozers at the same time they rounded the cattle up. They wanted to make the land unusable to Bundy. In doing so, they crossed another line in the sand and broke laws pertaining to his private property and his ability to make use of the water rights he owns.


http://water.nv.gov/data/permit/results.cfm

Absolute irrefutable LOGIC here.

Those goddam THINGS they bred up North of Hinton, to send to Montana and Idaho had nothing to do with being Alberta Timber Wolves, either.

Had some brain dead Lady from Bisbee ( Haight Ashbury East) trying to chew on me about this subject (Wild Horses / Wolves / Jaguar )... These people are misinformed, Yes.

...At a certain point, that LEVEL of ignorance becomes a force for EVIL.

Weird that, "Kissy, Huggy, Feely," types indulge therein, so readily, and so passionately.

GTC

If your going to listen to his point of view, then you might as well read this one. It's on the same subject, and old Bundy was quoted in this 20 odd years ago.



Rage, Race and Violence on the Western Range

...At a certain point, that LEVEL of ignorance becomes a force for EVIL.
==============

Yes, my friend, it sure does.

.gov didn't have much money for range improvements until 1976 act and it was the 1978 PRIA act from congress before they had substantial money.

Before 1967 the .gov spent almost all it's budget on the agency, in 1967 it spent .10 to the rancher's 1.25... which was an improvement.

from 1975 to 1979 the agency took 2.5mil per year from the lessee's 50% share for agency costs to build personnel. In 1982 BLM spent 13mil on range improvements. The ranchers by this time were holding theirs, and the same or less was actually being spent compared to the 60s.

Also seems BLM was fudging a bit on how well improved the range conditions were to continue expanding it's budget from congress.

'Visions upon the land' has a bunch of history on the BLM and FS expansion through the 1900s. You can pretty much see who built these infrastructures starting the the 1800s.

Kent

We know that today as liberalism.

It is a tumor on America.

But rather than seek the cure, the voting public is stocking up on the cancer causing Kool-Aid.

Kent

how about all the chaining? who was doing that?

I haven't read the book you reference, but I believe the feds paid for a lot of infrastructure.

a lot of this real desert country didn't get real infrastructure until plastic pipe was invented.

Sycamore

Those kinds of people don't givva a rats ass about wolves, wild horses,..or much of anything else,...except demonstrating their self perceived superiority to you by endlessly spewing their liberal mindset.

,..a liberal mindset that has been spoon fed to them by idiots.

They haven't had an original fuggin' thought in their lives,...yet they believe the crap that they're been indoctrinated with makes them "above" those who have formed their opinions through common sense.

Anyway, the conditions heat and creosote are the same around here. Right now it's harsh and I know the guy that has the state trust land lease 15 mins from here, he's a avid hunter that's how we met.

In probably a 10 x 5 mile area there's 10+ dirt tanks. It's so harsh because of no rain, I see they just hold the cattle on the range for water and have to feed from haystacks.

No matter what, those tanks have to be functional and he's the one that keeps them that way.

Kent

Open range stopped in 1936. Fencing... rotation was the first step in range betterment. Dirt tanks and road development... nothing cheap about any of it. Paid for by the ranchers over generations and much of the issue of Bundy's refusal to be moved off.

Kent

Only chaining I personally know about was on BLM land by the rancher with some cats. Probably had a permit, it'd be hard to miss by BLM. Maybe the funds were from the returned 50%.

FS used to be an agency that produced a profit through logging and grazing. Once we lost logging and grazing has been diminished, the forests 20 years later are burning up in 500,000 acre clumps every few years and many of the water sources that held wildlife to the land are abandoned with the wildlife gone. Taxpayers now fund the bloated agency with use fees for preexisting faculties on the rise.

BLM is moving ranchers out either completely or by reducing numbers to unprofitable. It doesn't have to produce it's budget anymore, it just goes to the taxpayer.

Once the rancher is moved off, any maintenance will be on the taxpayer, as no/few fees will be collected... basically there will be no maintenance and the ground will go feral, the wildlife will suffer and roads will be closed.

An environmentalists dream.

enjoy.

Kent

We know that today as liberalism.
============

Honesty and facts should have no histrionic labels other than being honesty and facts.

This liberal labeling over disagreements is for school kids.

It's a reflection upon you when you go there, not upon the one who disagrees.

I think he said it right .Its been in the family for over a 100 years no big deal

"It turns out that Fox News hero Cliven Bundy is not just a lawbreaking moocher � he�s also a big, fat liar"


That sounds like some reputable reporting right there. No need for me to go further.

You make it sound as if I'm cussing someone, or something...

I just see more black and white than grey. Left of center is liberal, and right of center is conservative. I'm a "conservative" and don't care if anyone calls me that. It's what I am.

On the other hand, give the groups of liberals I have stood and fought on both legislative and political levels, as well as administrative levels with game laws, wolf introduction, proposed national monuments that take millions of acres, and persecution of hunter privileges and ranching in the West... I can not only spot a liberal 3 city blocks away, but I can tell them by what they drive, how they dress, how they LIE and twist the truth, (Which is what you referenced.), but I can smell them as well.

Do conservatives lie? You betcha they do. But liberals have patents and copyrights on lying for their evil causes and consequences.