The other thread on kids leaving home has prompted me to start this one. My son is interested in mechanical engineering and robotic engineering. He is looking at a 2 year school that offers associates degrees in these fields. Are associates degrees in engineering going to make him employable or does he really need a BS? He is a great hands on kid and wants to work in a smaller shop and be involved with design and build. He would like to work in the weapons or defense industries. Would robotics be more useful than mechanical. Hopefully some of you folks can shed some light on this and I can share it with him. Thanks.

Mike

The short answer is "yes". He *could* on average make more money and avoid "real work" with a BS or more. When I started only 25% of the engineers had degrees while today they only hire foreign born PhDs.

Mike, oil related engineers are in high demand. They need the degree though.

The associates will get him a job as an engineering tech at $40k per year.

A petroleum engineer, or pipeline design engineer makes $250k.

Just sayin'....

With an associates you'd top out at 25 an hour here in rural swmo working in our robots, if you were hired. With a bs you could become the CEO.

Agree with the above.
IMO if he's set on that plan, the best thing would be to get the two year degree, get a job paying $20/hour, and then fully utilize any advanced education reimbursement program his employer might have to go to school part time and get his BSME.

Not to mention spending the rest of your born days in a cubical.

A BSME is a much, much better long range educational investment than an associate's or even a bachelor's in technology. There are a greater range of jobs and employers from which to choose with an ABET-accredited BSME than with a mechanically-related AS or mechanical engineering technology BS. I've been down that road.

If you really want to go up the ladder in engineering, as in many scientific fields, you need an MS or even a PhD. My nephew got a BS in glass engineering but it wasn't really marketable. He got an MS and went to work at $60k. After a couple of years, he went back and got a PhD. Now he's making some serious money developing bulletproof glass.

In addition, the US defense industry, both on the government side and contractor side, is in dire need of young engineers and mathematicians - applied mathematics, mechanical, electrical, chemical, biological, etc., preferably with a BS - who are actually US citizens and have a clean record, and can therefore obtain a security clearance.

But I'm talking about a real 4-year engineering degree here - not one of those funky on-line "technology" degrees..

I can't speak to the Mech. Eng./robotics field - I'm a Civil Eng. with a BS. In the consulting business I'm in, all of our engineers have 4 year degrees at a minimum. Most of our Cadd Techs (computer drafting) have 2 year associate degrees. If that is representative of his area of interest, my guess is he may be limiting himself with the associates degree.

When I went to school, the first 2 years at a university or community college were mostly "pre-engineering" classes (calculus, physics, chemistry, statics, dynamics, strength of materials, etc.). Completing that qualified for an associate's degree, then you applied to your engineering school (Mech., Civil, Electrical, etc.). It was in these programs you took classes specific to your area of interest.

My thoughts are if his mind is made up on a 2 year program, I'd be looking at schools with specialized programs unique to his interests (Voc. Tech. possibly?) though have no idea what may be out there for him.

Good information from everybody. I appreciate it. My son is looking at a 2 year tech school, thinking that he doesn't want to go to school all his young life. This information may help him to broaden his search for other schools.

Mike

I think it is wise to pick up some "trade" exposure. It could be welding or "controls/PLC" or machining. Engineers who don't know their elbow from a singularity are a dime a dozen and the guys on the shop floor have their way with them. Being able to run a decent weld bead or setup and really run a Bridgeport sets you apart from the pretenders.

Jonh Moses Browning's enduring legacy is due, in large part, because his designs could be set up and run on standard machine tools.

You've received some good advice. a 4 year degree is the way to go. 2 years as a young man may seem forever but I regard a 2 year engineering degree in my business as no degree at all while I start hiring 4 year degreed engineers near 6 figures (assuming they can get a security clearance). Please encourage him to move on to a BS (I want to retire some day and need a replacement )

My employer loves to hire kids with or working on an Engineering Associates Degrees as technicians. If they work out for 6 months or so, they become eligible for tuition reimbursement for their engineering schooling, on up through a Bachelor's, at least. Once they get their Bachelor's, they are pretty much a shoe-in to get an Engineering position.

I am a Civil Engineer with a Bachelors degree. In my state, you have to have the 4 year degree to get your Professional license. Without a license, you cannot assume any responsibility and sign any plans etc. Without tha ability, you do not make very much money.

I would suggest looking into the work he truly wants to do and see what they say about degrees. I know in my field, a masters or a Phd is only good for teaching or government research.

A two year degree does not do anything for an Engineering career in my field and does not qualify you to be one. A mechanical engineer will most certainly require a 4 year degree.

My buddy who is ... very well paid, was a an engineer on a Navy aircraft carrier prior to getting his bachelors in engineering and then business MBA. He says that once hired in lower level positions being former mil was an "in" with the higher ups who often were the same. From the amount of partying he got away with in college I think his military experience also pretty much overqualified him for the classes he took in school. I'm sure he'd talk to your son if he's interested, just give me a PM.

A four year degree will open more doors and carry him further up the ladder, but it is going to be more work to achieve too. If he doesn't have a good aptitude for math and physics, it will be a tough goal to make. I saw quite a few struggle and fade out. Getting a good internship can help, but I had some friends that got too involved with work and never finished their degree because of it. Nothing wrong with a two year degree if he doesn't have the commitment to do four. (or five which a lot of people take)

Jerry

He REALLY needs the BSME (or a BS in some engineering field) to really excel. BUT, like JoeMama said, it is tremendously helpful if he truly knows how to use his hands AND tools on real world projects, even if it's how to successfully rebuild an engine or work on farm equipment, or cars, or motorcycles, or other general mechanical or electrical projects.

And it's especially important nowadays to have a clean record so that you don't have any trouble getting a security clearance.

When I was interviewing and hiring folks for NASA and Army Missile Command contractors, I looked for folks with BS degrees in an Engineering discipline, or Math, or Physics first, then I narrowed the cut to those who had some actual hands-on experience and knew how to get dirty (and I mean greasy dirty not morally dirty), then I looked at attitude.

And I really wasn't too interested in folks that had 4.0 averages, unless they could show me they had a lot of useful hands-on skills, and I'm not talking about hands-on with video games either. I paid more attention to kids with 3-point-something averages or even high 2-point-something, especially if they knew their way around a shop and had worked their way through school, had a good attitude, and were willing to LISTEN.

I could make one helluva good engineer out of a kid like that. And I didn't care too much about the engineering discipline as much as I cared about the hands-on abilities. One of the best guys we ever hired had a degree in Agricultural Engineering, but he had lots of hands-on practical experience, and today he's one of the top RDT&E (Research, Development, Test & Evaluation) Engineers on UAV projects (Unmanned Airborne Vehicles (aka Drones)) and Aircraft Survivability for the Army Missile Command.

Another option I strongly recommend is the co-op program. This is where a student, around the middle of his sophomore year (depending on the University) starts a program of working for one semester in his engineering discipline and then going to school for a semester, then working , then school, and so on until graduation. This not only gains the kid invaluable experience in his engineering discipline, but also earns him enough money to pay for most of his school, AND makes him MUCH more hire-able. I did this and my son did this.

I also strongly encouraged the young engineers we hired to get their P.E. stamp (Professional Engineering certification) as soon as they could. In the real world, outside of the government, that P.E. stamp carries a LOT of weight and can make a huge difference in your earnings in some fields.

The P.E. stamp is much more valuable than a MS or PhD in Engineering, so get the P.E. first and then if you want to get the MS or PhD later, that's okay. My son (who, like his old man, majored in Civil Engineering) just got his P.E. this spring, at age 26, and it's already increased his salary by nearly 50%. Now he's thinking about getting his MS in Engineering Management or an Engineering specialty.

I, a Civil Engineer, got hired by a major gov't contractor doing work for NASA, the Army Missile Command, and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission because of my hands-on experience. Then once hired, I was offered the opportunity to go back to school, on their nickle. I earned engineering certifications (in the government realm, about the same as a Masters degree), in Nuclear Environmental Qualification Engineering, Test Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Aerospace Engineering, and specialties in Life Support Systems, Command & Data Management Systems, and even Seismic Engineering. I've got more than enough hours to have a PhD, but in the Gov't world, these certifications were more valuable than a PhD. And you had to have these certs to work on the projects that I was on even if you already had a PhD.

Depending on which state, getting an engineering MS can shorten the time necessary to qualify for the PE. So if you can get that MS while you're working you can sit for the PE exam earlier.

Mike,

Does your son know the coursework required for engineering? Have you, or has he taken an honest assessment about strengths/weaknesses in relation to said coursework?

Does your son know what a typical day as an engineer would entail? And if so, is he still interested?

Has your son ever worked before? Either for himself or 'the man'?

Is your son unusually candid or skilled in math and spatial reasoning?


Have him go on a job shadow/mentoring experience with actual engineers that aren't friends/family so that he can get an honest look for himself.

Skeezix nailed it - especially about how he recruits engineers. Every top notch firm I've recruited for made their hiring decisions pretty much the same way.

My oldest has several AS degrees and is one or two classes short of a BS in Electrical. His AutoCAD and Industrial Automation is whats putting food on his table. He's been in school long enough to have earned a PhD by now but switched from Petrolium to Electrical after spending some quality time in West Texas. He said,"oily rocks & Rock Heads isn't my bag."
He's been full time employed for the last four years with different businesses from Eng. to Tech Services but is making $34hr. last he mentioned it. His income could close to double with the full degree though.

More than anything it depends upon the capacity of your son. A full BS in engineering requires much more that that of a tech school, associate degrees and the like. Much, much more. I am thinking he understands this.

Frankly, I have no use for MS's and PhD's in my line of work and much prefer one that has a couple of years of solid stretched experience over the two years an MS chases. If fact, I find the majority disfunctional given what we do losing a lot of practicallity. Again, this in large oil and gas projects. Of course our research arm is loaded with them and they will top out below a solid project engineering career.

My son knows what is required and he has been to engineering camp. He listens to me about manufacturing since I do engineering type work. His interest in robotics has come from being on the local team from First Robotics, the nationwide competition. He is an honors student who is a member of the National Honor Society. I think that he just doesn't apply himself as much as he could in high school and will really find himself in college.

Well,...I'll be the odd man out here and say that, although a career in Mechanical Engineering is a worthy challenge to embark upon, I wouldn't steer a young American towards a field of study which is greatly dependent on manufacturing.

I can't say what America's future is,...but I can say with relative confidence that it won't be manufacturing.

Pedigree matters.

Muskegman, P.E. / BSCE

The difficulty is that everyone in a good engineering school has those credentials or they would not have been let in. The competition is fierce. The average acceptance GPA where I went to school was 3.97 for 2014 with the SAT average running at 1318, this for all majors though the school is substantially engineering and architecture with a chunk of Ag. As such, the playing field changes immensely from high school. Not knocking your son at all, just offering the truths of the adventure.

http://mustangnews.net/cal-poly-admits-most-selective-class/

My oldest son graduated with an electrical engineering degree this past May. He interned last summer for a firm that offered him a job in November. Before he graduated, he had 3 other offers. He started out making just under 6 figures with nothing more than an FE and works in system protection with public utilities. Two of his room mates were also engineering majors (civil and mechanical) and nether have full time employment. Both also had hard times finding internships which is a requirement for graduation.

My youngest son is a marine systems engineering major (sort of hands on mechanical engineering)at a maritime academy. 100% job placement in that field in the last 5 years (according to MMA) and he was offered 6 internships this summer. Spent most of May, June, and July on the Bearing Sea and raked in a ton of cash.

Jobs are there if your are smart about it and pay attention.

Mike - My son got a Bachelor's degree in Mechanical Enineering. He is currently working for Pratt & Whitney (the jet engine company)
and making more money than I do. Some travel to nice places, he has been to Germany and Spain so far.
Want the facts ... just google Pratt & Whitney JOBS

With a 2 year degree, one will be doing the clean up and grunt work. Hands on but not really challenging. If one wants to independently lead team and affect direction then a minimum of 4 years and a MS would be even better. PhD if serious bucks are part of the dream.

True facts of life in the twenty first century

Skeezix described my thoughts well. I have a BS in Environmental Engineering with my PE. my thoughts on the MS nd PhD are thus:

You are better off going into industry with a Bachelors and then getting the MS or PhD later in what you want than getting them right away and coming out of school with huge salary demands and no worthwhile experience. We do not pay new MS engineers any more than new BS engineers. They are both entry level.

What really matters in my industry is the PE certification. That carries much more weight than either a MS or a PhD. In fact, in my field, we pretty much shy away from PhDs. Having said that, each engineering discipline is a little different in their hiring practices.

To the original question: Encourage him to look very strongly at the BS. An associate engineering degree wouldnt even allow you to put "engineer" on your business card in many states (they require PE certification).