After reading most of the religious threads I think most posting Christians don't have a clue about lordship. I find in God's Word a Christian is a slave of righteousness.

In Romans 6:15-18 we read,

"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. "

When I suggest to Christians here we should obey the New Testament they enmas, instead of obeying the New Testament insturction, go into attack mode and accuse me of trying to go back to Moses' Law. It's not just here, it in most churches.

I met a young assistant pastor. He decided to actually obey the New Testament instructions. With a cpuple weeks his boss, the senior pastor, told him to either give up on this obedience stuff or be fired. He took the latter option.

You non-belevers pick a New Testament instruction and post it here and see who actually obeys. Remember it was the chruch of Jesus' day who killed him.

vel, Ringman i'll nibble around the edges.

since Jesus was a Jew, wonder why he wasn't bound to Old Testament rules & regs?

I mean, by extension, if he can ignore the Old Testament requirements, what makes you think it's not Ok to take the New Testament as a reference source and nothing more?

I mean, doesn't it strike you as strange that we put more weight on the New Testament and less on the Old Testament?

Jesus was/is God!

Yes, and regardless whether man "makes" or "allows" Him to be Lord or not, He is. We'll all acknowledge that one day.

Jesus did follow the Old Testament laws as God provided them to Moses - Jesus just didn't pay attention to the artificial rules some of the Jewish religious leaders put on top of God's Law.

To answer the question about why Christians aren't bound by ALL of the Old Testament requirements, Jesus fulfilled the Law as only He could and so we are no longer bound by the ceremonial portions of the Old Testament laws. Christians are still bound by the "moral" law as documented in the New Testament teachings. That's why Christians are OK to eat a bacon cheeseburger but not to fornicate.

You need to understand the Whole Book. Jesus was crucified from the foundation of the world. He created the Law of Moses to show men they are sinners. He later fulfilled the Law and then abolished the Old Law by nailing it to His cross.



Since most Christians accept the above statement that Jesus fulfilled the Law and Jesus instituted a New Covenant in His Blood as Christians they generally accept the New Testament as the Word of God which brings people to salvation. But most Christians reject obeying the New Testament just as most non-Christians reject obeying the Moses� Law.



We have the most documented fact of history, based on legal historical evidence, that Jesus rose from the dead. His resurrection confirms what He claims and establishes the church.

Very well said indeed.

Bears repeating.

It's not only the ceremonial portions of the law that we are free from. Paul spoke of freedom from the law in Romans 7:4-9. He was not speaking only of ceremonial law because he gives the example of the law saying "thou shall not covet" as an example of the law we are free from.

Being free from the law however is not freedom to sin. We are free from the law so that we can be married to another.Rom.7:1-4.

What we are not to do however is to judge our standing with God based on our obedience. I am not however saying that we should not obey, but we can't judge our salvation based on how well we obey or on how we do not obey. Our salvation can only be based on the obedience of Jesus. We can never be good enough on our own. Any man who says he is saved because he is obedient is a fool. Any man who says he is completely obedient is a liar.

Our obedience can only come through grace. By grace, I can see what God has done in me. By grace I can see who God has made me to be.I am his son. I obey because I love him, and I love him because he first loved me. When I see God's love for me and understand who I am now because of grace, obedience is just the natural result.

What are, let's say, five things in the New Testament instructions you obey? Should other Christians obey these also?

Ringman,I could name you a host of instructions to obey but I don't have to keep a list. I can love others as Christ has loved me and I will keep them all.

God wants you to be more focused on your connection to him then on your connection to sin.

PS
Yes, Jesus is Lord!!!

"Jesus is LORD" became the reason to persecute his early followers. Why? Because Rome wanted its subjects to declare "Caesar is lord", and the Christians couldn't acknowledge his godship, any more than Jews in general could. The Shemah, said daily, taught otherwise. "Jesus is LORD" means that one acknowledges his claim, backed up by death and subsequent resurrection from death, to be LORD.

YHVH (I AM) respectfully addressed by Jews using the term Adonai means "LORD". Jesus fulfilled the OT/"law" requirements and is now "both LORD and Christ(Messiah)" as the NT relates. He did claim to be God and equal with God, so one has to either bend the knee now (or do so eventually) or dismiss Him altogether. Your choice -- please make one you'll stand behind forever...

Not five. Only two.

Love the Lord with your all and your neighbor as yourself.

Everything else is religion. Religion does not save.

I kinda like that. however, please don't raise the bristles on the back of your neck, but it does kinda imply that Jesus was a True Communist. (no, not a statist communist like the red Chinese, Russia, etc.).

the Essenes back in the day, a Jewish sect, might have had a taste or flavor of said subject? not really sure what the Zealots thought, for certain.

Yes, Jesus is Lord. As well as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

That is Christ's summation of the law & the prophets. If I could do that I'd have no need of Christ.

I seek to be Christlike out of gratitude to Him for a redemption which makes me able to obey and at the same time makes my obedience a non-issue.

I seek to be Christlike, but am far, far from it which is why it's grace and not wages.

Anyone who thinks he keeps any laws or rules has real problems.

efw
I like what you are saying and I know how you mean it but the reality is that by grace, you are Christ like.You have been "made" righteous just as Christ was "made" to be sin.

Christ never sinned, just as we have never been righteous, yet by his sacrifice we have been given the gift of righteousness.

I just don't want anyone who is born again to see their self as becoming.By one sacrifice he has perfected forever them that are sanctified. All we are perfecting now is our faith to receive all that already has been done for us and all that already belongs to us through Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.

You are Christlike, but it is by faith and not works. He that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit. It is this knowing and resting in his already finished work in you which produces the fruit of the Spirit. As we dwell on our already being complete in our Spirit, we crucify or put to death our flesh and walk in the spirit rather than by the flesh.

Fruit is the result of the life of the Spirit. Works are the result of any flesh effort. I cannot produce fruit by the works of my flesh, even good works. I produce fruit by my life connection to the vine.

All knees will bend and all will bow to Him, period.

if I have grace, was it given freely, or did I do something for it?

if I believe, was it innate, or was I made to believe?

if I'm saved, did I "do" it, or was it freely given?

how did I qualify? anyone know for sure?

if I "believe" did I do something? or was it already in my DNA?

y'all need to understand your theology. ya know?

Yes. No.




Yes.



Both


By accepting the Free Gift of God�s Son. Yes.



Yes. Perhaps.



I agree.

Gus, salvation is by grace through faith. You have to have faith to believe what you cannot see or prove.If you believe you will ask. If you ask in faith you will receive.

Asking in faith is simply asking honestly wanting to receive salvation from the Son of God.

So your answer is you won�t share any instructions for the, say a new believer, to obey? Once someone is focused on their connection to Jesus then what?

Are you saying the instructions given by the apostles are mere religiosity? Are you saying the instructions given by the apostles are to be disregaurded?

AMEN

I would certainly encourage any new believer to read and study the Word of God and to pray. I consider both of these to be connection builders. By the Word of God and by the leading of the Holy Spirit you will know what to do in any situation. There are many situations in life that you will not have scripture for, but you do have the Holy Spirit to lead you.

I'm not telling anyone not to know the Word of God. If you are connected to Jesus you will naturally want to learn as much as possible about him.

What I am telling you is to be more focused on that connection to him than on yourself and what you can do to please him by your obedience.You please God only because by grace he has made you pleasing to him through Jesus's sacrifice. The main problem with believers is they are more sin and self conscious than conscious that they have been made righteous by Jesus's sacrifice.

I can give you a bunch of instructions to keep but what would that do other than make you conscious of your inability to keep them all. This is exactly what the law did and what God intended it to accomplish. God never meant the law to accomplish righteousness. The law was given so that men could see and recognize their sin, so that they would come to know that they needed a savior.

"most posting Christians don't have a clue about lordship"

Hmmm....me thinks there's something in that BOOK that talks about....NOT JUDGING OTHERS!!

I don't see why there are so many churches all over the country. Apparently, all that is needed is for everybody to let Ringman tell them what God wants them to do. Easy peasy. All hail the prophet Ringman (PBUH).

I do not even like your translation that you are quoting from. the King James does not say that we have become "slaves of righteousness", it says "we have become servants of righteousness." Notice that Romans 6:18 in the King James says servants "of" righteousness, not servants "to" righteousness.

Your translation seems to contradict Romans 8:15 of the King James which says, 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Are You sure you have all the facts on the subject? How �bout

Matthew 7:5-6
��You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother�s eye. Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.��

Matthew 18:15-16
��If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.��

John 7:24
�� Do not judge according to appearance, but [b]judge with righteous judgment.��

R_H_Clark,

By mixing translations you can posibly come up with what ever you want the Bible to say. When I was a new believer I used the King James Version. It took too much effort to try to figure out some of the passages. I wrote to Billy Graham. He suggested the New American Standard Bible would be better for someone who was not reared with it. Asked someone who is not familiar with the KJV to explain Luke 14.

What I get from your posts is you want to sorta be casually connected to the church, but not connected solidly to God's Word enough to actually obey and teach obedience.



Romans 8:15

"For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, 'Abba! Father!'�

Romans6:6

"knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin"

Ringman's words
"What I get from your posts is you want to sorta be casually connected to the church, but not connected solidly to God's Word enough to actually obey and teach obedience."


What I get from your posts is that you think your obedience produces righteousness.

I have never taught disobedience. I want all to obey, but I want them to obey because they are saved, not obey to earn salvation.

Romans 6:6
yes we are no longer slaves to sin, but neither are we slaves to righteousness or slaves to Christ. We are not the slave of Christ. We are the bride of Christ and the Body of Christ. We are one with Christ, adopted by God. Romans 8:15 says we have received the spirit of adoption, not the spirit of bondage.

As long as you have a slave mentality you will be working to earn approval. God wants you to have a son mentality where obedience comes from a sense of loving your father and wanting to please him because you love him and he loves you.

Who do you think will work harder for his father's business, the slave worker, or the son who is an heir?

I obey because I love the Lord. I obey because God made me righteous. Does that make it clear? What are some of the New Testasment instructions one who loves the Lord would obey?



1 Corinthians 6:19-20

"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body."



What are some examples of what instructions one who loves The Father would obey.



I have never worked with a slave, but I certainly have worked with sons durning my seventy years. There is no contest. Based on the performance of the sons I have worked with the slave would.

Like I tell my kids constantly: if people spent even half as much time concerning themselves with the one person they can change (themselves) instead of others the world would be a far better place.

Not Scripture, but true for Christians & non- none the less.

Well said.

Yep.

Too bad Paul is dead. You could've corrected him on his Greek...

Google 'Douloo' or buy yourself a Strong's or Vine's...

Love the Lord your God with all of your heart and soul and might and love your neighbor as yourself.

This is what God asks of us. if we did this, we would all make this world a much better place.

PS - and anyone who wonders what he should or shouldn't obey would not appear to have been filled with the Holy Spirit. Every Christian knows because the Spirit tells him what is right and what is wrong.

Paul uses the word slave as in the sense that Christ is master. We are not however slaves to bondage as we think of the word slave today. This is why Paul can also say in Romans 8:15 that we have not received the spirit of bondage, or in II Cor.4:17, that where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty, and not be contradicting himself. To fully understand you must interpret all scripture so that it agrees with itself.

"Damn Paul, this Old Testament is becoming a real bear to keep up with, too many rules, we can't do everything God wants."

"I hear you Matthew and I have an idea. Lets say a married virgin gives birth to the son of God and this son has come here to save us. All you need to is accept this son and you will go to heaven"

"I like that idea Matt, we can still screw one another over but all is good because we 'believe' in the son', SWEET! Now lets get writing"

Umm, Paul, you do know that this new religion we are trying to sell is gonna piss quite a few people off don't ya? We are liable, to get beheaded over this crap if we are lucky or crucified, boiled in oil, or burned alive if we are not. Look what you guys did to brother Stephen back before you switched teams.

Matt, quit being a sissy. We are selling the idea of a new religion based on a dead guy coming back to life to people who already have religions they are willing to die for. That is gonna take some aggressive marketing and a few of us are gonna have to take one for the team. Quitting the pharisee business was the best thing I ever did. The money and the perks were obviously awesome, and it took me a lifetime to get where I was but I always wanted to start my own religion....get in on the ground floor so to speak. If it takes off we'll be freaking legends after we are dead but I doubt we see much in the short term.

How bout the twelve? Are they down with this?

Certainly. Don't know if you heard but Pete sold his fishing boats and Luke gave up his medical practice. We all figure that if we can survive for a few years without getting killed by the Jews or Romans, we can make more money peddling this new religion to poor people. You still thinking about returning to the tax collecting gig?

I'm thinking about it but you make the idea of a lifetime of self sacrifice and death cheating to advance this con sound so appealing. Sometimes I feel like I'd rather be crucified than to go back into government services.

Atta boy Matt. I always knew you had it in ya! Let's go down to the Synagogue and rattle some cages. When they flog us, I bet I can take more licks than you before screaming out in pain...cause after all, you are a big sissie!

I gotta hand it to you Paulie....you always could make martyrdom seem fun!

These threads crack me up.

I recently watched a documentary about a local man who spent 25 years in prison for a murder he didn't commit. He said you don't have to join a gang in prison to be safe but to make it known immediately that if someone harms you there would be repercussions. Once the word got around that there would be payback if someone harmed you were relatively safe. He also learned that the best way to avoid fights was to NEVER argue about politics, RELIGION or what to watch on TV.

I am enjoying some of the discourse being shared by the believers in this thread.

Well said.

And while we are at it, new converts don't have to cut off the end of their pecker. That should help us grab some market share!