Any thoughts on this rifle for taking care of 2 legged and 4 legged predators?

Excellent economical choice. Plenty of power, plenty of capacity, super reliable, relatively compact, easy to maintain, more than accurate enough within a couple hundred yards. What's not to like?

It's indestructible, and it will kill what you hit. Hitting things, though, ain't always easy.

If you already have one, great. If not, you probably have something that will work as well or find a equal or better alternative on the market.

I like the bayonet option on the milsurps.

Would prefer a shotgun myself for close range as in a built-up area. Makes a bigger hole and fewer penetration and danger downrange issues.

Depends on where the threat is when you're doing the protecting.

If the threat out in the yard the SKS would probably be a reasonable choice.

If the threat is inside the house an SKS might not be the best tool for the job.


Mike

Best tool for the job is often situtation dependent too.

SKS will work. Wouldn't bother me if thats all I owned and all I had to use.

Over-penetration sending bullets into the neighbor's house.

If you have a "safe room" with your family inside behind you, then an SKS would be a formidable choice. Having to move through a building to clear it, not so much.

Another consideration is the risk you pose to your neighbors if you miss ... or even if you don't. In a rural area, that's not such a consideration, in town, it should be.

it's a handy, reasonably powerful combat weapon. It is accurate enough, and certainly reliable.
Use the HP bullets, or soft points.

Pretty long for indoors but not bad outside. They worked for the Russians.

They are heavy for their size, but will work. I have several. There are some cool Bullpup kits out their that shrinks the overall size down, but for home defense, not sure I trust the trigger linkage on them.

They are very reliable.

Sadly, penetrative capacity is often closely tied to effectiveness.

My thoughts are that it is at the very bottom on the list of firearms I would buy.

For anything.



Travis

Same here.

Shotgun & buckshot penetrates plenty...especially at HOME DEFENSE distances.

The imperfect rifle you can afford and at hand when you need it beats the heck out of the ideal rifle you can't afford or one that's locked up when needed.

Just don't have very high expectations of having the ability to hit anything smaller than a pie plate at 100 yards.

WTH are you going to do when you half way through your house?


Too much penetration from any high power rifle, if you have a family that is.

Better than nothing.

But, then a Raven .25 is better than nothing at all.

This.

IF you are going to go ahead and use it. Full metal jackets will go through your house, your neighbors house and probably your neighbors neighbors house.

I have been asked the "What should I get" question a gazillion times.
My responses -
1 If you can train yourself to blink for a split second when you pull the trigger a shotgun is a perfect self-defense weapon inside a structure. Muzzle flash in a small area - a hallway, bedroom, etc will blind you for too long if your eyes are open when all that burning gas lights up the darkness.

2 Unless you have earplugs in you will be stunned by the muzzle blast of almost all large caliber handguns, rifles, and shotguns.
TRY IT in a closed room sometime. I did, years ago and decided that my .41 magnum S&W was a lousy choice for defense inside a structure.


3. Over penetration has been pointed out - rightly so. I like my neighbors and do not want to shoot any of them while trying to stop a bad actor.

4 After suggesting several books, training facilities, and videos about self defense with guns I suggest that - please don't react until you have thought this through - they get a 10 round capacity .22 LR pistol or 9 shot revolver that is ABSOLUTELY reliable - that YOU and any other persons who may need to use it - is well trained and shoots the weapon a minimum of 100 rounds twice a month. As a "back-up" to the handgun I suggest a Ruger 10/22 with an extended magazine and perhaps a folding stock.

Get a watermelon, put it at 25 feet, put ten rounds of CCI Velicitor into it as fast as you can and remember that humans are 80% water. My wife trains herself to draw, squeeze the laser on-switch, and put five rounds into the head of a man silhouette target in four seconds. I would NEVER allow my best friend and cohort in life risk herself if I believed that there was great risk involved.

Your choices - and they are difficult. Good luck.


Terry

Good read on shotgun ammo for home defense.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Penetration tests of wallboard by various shotgun ammo with links at the bottom to penetration tests by various ammo one might use in home defense.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-3-the-shotgun-meets-the-box-o-truth/

Unless you're planning to use bird shot (which compromises effectiveness in stopping an attacker), most other common choices will penetrate most household walls, even several of them. The solution is to know what's behind your target, not to pick something that won't penetrate walls. All effective rounds will penetrate modern house walls, and likely several of them. If it won't, then its effectiveness against an attacker should be considered suspect.

PS Not responding to Jim. He was just the last poster.

Wouldn't recommend this in a trailer park

Are you saying that penetration is a problem in most trailer parks?



Travis

Ain't nothin but a thang if you have enough flour. Careful with that self rising stuff you'll end up with yeast rolls. Not atkins friendly.

mossberg 500 with pistol grip and 18" barrel is a much better in-home option IMO.

For a while, an SKS was my "home defense" firearm. I had the East German 62 grain plastic core "ubungspatronen" ammo loaded. Were I to do the same thing again, the 123 Vmax would be the way to go.
The SKS is reliable as a rock, about as heavy, too.
A folding-stock shotgun with long mag tube is probably a better idea, but an SKS will work, especially if you can get a side-folder stock for it.

If your home protection extends to about 385 meters it will do fine. We were dinking around with one at the silhouette range one day and it was knocking over the 385 meter turkeys very handily. Admittedly were were shooting with our elbows on the bench but at least it had the mechanical accuracy - with some kind of surplus East bloc ammo - to regularly hit those things out that far.

For inside, I'd take buckshot any day.

Unless you're 100% certain that you can remain in your bedroom and allow the bad guy to come to you, a long gun is not a wise home defense weapon. If you have to leave your room for any reason, you run the very real risk of having a bag guy take a long gun from you.

I'd go with a handgun.

Suck on it first.

Yeah, I remember your teaching your boyfriend how to do it. Here's you working on the top of his head. Did it work for him?

[quote=SansSouci]Unless you're 100% certain that you can remain in your bedroom and allow the bad guy to come to you, a long gun is not a wise home defense weapon. If you have to leave your room for any reason, you run the very real risk of having a bag guy take a long gun from you.

I'd go with a handgun.

And you are a complete fuggin' moron !

Have you ever cleared a house with a long gun? I didn't think so. If you have, you wouldn't ask such a stupid question.

Hell, even a half-lame crook would take a handgun from you and shove it up your a$s.

Soldiers have been doing it for a very long time now.

TRH,

We're not talking battle in a war zone. We're talking one person trying to clear an urban/suburban home with a long gun. Believe me, it is very easy for a crook to take a long gun from a good guy. I've seen it done many times in training.

I would never attempt to clear my home with a long gun. It's a bad idea with potentially deadly consequences.

It's much easier to take a pistol than it is a long gun. Again, you're talking about something you have never done or know nothing about...fuggin idiot...

From what I've read, you simply trying to clear your home would be a bad idea with potentially deadly consequences.

And, yeah, I have done the "clear a building with a long gun" thing. I damn sure didn't wish I had a pistol when I did it.

ditto.

After the fact could get rough when the cops, prosecutor, and the damned criminal's civil attorney start talking about Soviet assault weapon and unfolding the bayonet.

If you have a defense attorney worth a schit it won't get to that point, and I'm not sure the OP was referencing such times.

Depends on your sit/rap of home defense. Wife and I live out in the boonies and have carbines as well as pistols handy.

FRONT TOWARD ENEMY.



Just sayin'.....

and push together three times

Indestructible and reliable?, yes. Accurate?, NO. I've had several and the best would group about 6-7 inches at 100 yards benchrest. Of course, the crude issues sights didn't help, but adding a scope only made it into a 5-6 inch rifle. It would make a good home-defense weapon for about 100 yards, but not much further (except to warn an attacker that you are armed).

For urban home defense, I wouldn't recommend it as it is too powerful for shooting in congested areas (penetration of houses across the street is generally frowned upon).

Yes, if in an urban area load and shoot some 123/125 gr soft point ammo, of course check for reliability.

I'd prefer a Hipoint 45ACP carbine. Cheap and accurate.

All depends on YOUR situation. Particularly what's behind your target and potentially in your house (family member) or close neighbor. If in protecting my family with SKS at hand, I would certainly not feel under-gunned. Earlier I saw posted about birdshot not being effective...not sure I would like to be hit in the face or chest with 12 gauge birdshot at 5 to 10 feet and would possibly feel better about drywall pass through into my kids wall. JMHO

My Russian shoots 3" groups at 100 yards with the copper jacketed hollow points. I kept it handy for years until it was retired and replaced with an AR.

Yup, depends on where you are. Close to other folks no an SKS is not good

Agree with Gunner. And my SKS will shoot a 5- shot 3" group at 100 yards with good ammo.

While and SKS wouldn't be my first choice for home defense, I'd Definately use it if that's all I had. That being said, I've got three dedicated "house" guns.

1st choice is. Always a 12ga loaded with # 4 buck shot. Mines an old Steven's SXS 12ga that's been cut down to 20" barrels.

My second choice is a S&W M&P AR-15 in .300 ACC/ Blackout with a Light / Lazer combo

My 3rd choice is a Glock 17 loaded with 18 rounds of Hornady Critical Duty +P ammo. It lives on the nightstand by the bed and also has a Streamlight Flashlight / Lazer combo on it.

Fan of standard vel #4 Buck here, myself.

No problemo with birdshot, either.

...I'd like to see the idiot that recomended "Pistols Only" try and get into my place and take my Mossberg away from me with bloody stumps, but that's not germain, and keeping one's balistically launched payloads ON one's own spread, and out of the neighbor's hard won areas adjacent is (and should be) PARAMOUNT.

Whoever recomended a well serviced and served .22LR is on to something, too.

I really hope that the OP's requirements for a good home defense tool are not of a sort to cause undue angst,....and as an inquiry, merely an academic excercise.

This subject's got a LOT of miles on it, here on the fire, and I'll bring up something that invariably gets tossed into the Salsa. Your VERY best "Home Defense" system is the Ears, Nose, and sensibilities of a good Dog, or two.

.....Their input and feedback should leave one in a position of TOTAL CONTROL of any potential Angst generating evolutions.

....forget this "Room Cleaning" horse pucky, you're gonna have a hard time getting past the outer perimeter fence,....

Noting as well, that it all depends on where, and what "Home" is, may alla' yours be safe, and free of the unwanted.

GTC

00 weighs about 58 gr/pellet. 8 of them in a 12g shell is about 460 gr. 58 gr isn't going to penetrate too many walls but it'll sure as heck penetrate a bad guy at 15' plus it'll spread enough to make hitting him a lot easier. That's very important when you're sweating blood. 99% of us have never been in that situation, me included, and we never know for sure how we'll react. Most of us won't be at our high point when it comes to accuracy.

Shot doesn't spread much at room distances, and buckshot penetrates drywall like tissue paper.

A .12 gauge at 15' throws the entire load (pretty much any load or choke constriction) into roughly a single ragged 3" hole. Even a wide open cylinder bore isn't a "street sweeper" at that range and you better be holding on target pretty tight or you can miss a lot easier than you might believe.

I trust this guy's results.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/

From his conclusions: "00 Buck penetrates 4 walls with ease. It is a great �Stopping� round, but there is a price to pay. Until someone invents a �Phaser� like on Star Trek, anything that will stop a bad guy, will also penetrate several walls."



I've thought of a 10/22 as well, in my younger days I even recommended it to a guy to buy for his wife. And while it does have the advantage of being light and maneuverable, no recoil to speak of and has 10 shots on demand, I have one big problem. What bad guy is going to stand still and let you take 10 shots at him? I want something that will incapacitate with the first shot - as much as possible.

After doing several rounds of buckshot tests (patterning only at 7, 15 and 25 yards) from a cylinder choked 18" barrel and an IC choked 28" barrel, my 12 gauge Hall Monitor is loaded with Federal Personal Defense 00 buck with their Flite Control wad. That wad really works, even from a cylinder choke. It produces a tight pattern even at 25 yards. I've been trying to find the #4 buck version but it's pretty scarce, I'm not sure they even make it any more. Until then I'll use the 00.

My thinking is:
A. I'm not relying on the spread of buckshot to make up for bad aim. Instead, I want the massive trauma of multiple wounds in a small area. To put it as bluntly as possible, I want to smash that MF'ing SOB with as much force as possible,I want to put his ass down NOW with the very first shot. The only reason I have a shotgun is that an M2 .50 cal. takes up too much space in the bedroom and shaped charge warheads from anti-tank weapons nullify my homeowner's insurance.

B. While I have no way to test this and don't want one, my hope is that the bad guy serves as enough of a backstop to slow down the buckshot enough that I don't have to worry about penetration through drywall. Again, I don't want a wide spread of shot with errant pellets going hither and yon, I want a tight pattern to blow a BFH in the BG.



I still have one more round of buckshot testing to go but no one makes an 18" or 20" barrel for an 870 that uses screw in chokes and doesn't have rifle sights, so I may have to just get a 20" rifle sighted deer barrel. I want to try some standard #4 buck with IC and modified tubes to see how that patterns. If it's tight enough I may switch to that.


Standard 00 buckshot - Olin "Military Grade", at 7 yards from a cylinder bore.




Federal Personal Defense copper plated 00 (1145 fps) at 7 yards from that same cylinder bore, the pattern on the upper right. Lower left is Federal Premium Max - same copper plated 00 and same wad but 1300 fps and heavier recoil. If it comes down to shooting someone to save my life - a very serious business despite the banter tossed around here - I want to blow the wound equivalent of a 3.00 or 4.00 caliber hole in my assailant.

Had this paratrooper model for a while, sold it. Was going to add better rear sight but ended up selling to a neighbor.

Rely on a 20" 870 12ga with rifle sights for my primary long gun, even in a rural setting.

I figure about one chance in a million I will need a gun for self defense in my home.
I estimate odds of accidental injury from over penetration from any handgun or shotgun to be so small as to not be a factor in the choice.

They're awesome for home defense. You should get 2 of them and put 3-point tactical slings on them. You can crisscross the straps across your back and shoot them one handed.

Don't forget to tuck your nutzak into the top of your tube socks first so you don't stumble over it while you're tuckin and rollin.

Exactly.

Do they make a pistol grip for that trooper model?

Sure thing. That is exactly why all who actually know how to do CQB drop the the slung carbine and transition to their sidearm in close quarters.....fuggin idiot.

I wasn't crazy about the bayonet-mounting apparatus on the muzzle but otherwise a really liked the Russian SKS I had.

One problem with stock SKS's however is the firing pin. As the bolt slams into battery chambering a new cartridge after firing the inertia of the firing pin, which has no recoil spring, will carry it forward and ding the primer of the new cartridge.

Mine did that, to the point it was a wonder it didn't fire the new cartridge.

Not surprisingly there are a bunch of reports of that happening; either two rounds in quick succession or a whole ten-round clip, full auto.

With that free firing pin they can reportedly also be made to inertia fire if the rifle is dropped.

At the height of the SKS years at least one maker was offering a spring kit to be installed around the firing pin to alleviate this problem.

Birdwatcher

The M1 Garand, the M1A/M14 and the M16/AR-15 don't have spring loaded fp's either and dingingprimers is fairly common. PART of why milspec primers tend to be good ju-ju for semi's. Right now,the SKS would be a really good choice when you consider the potential of a "Ferguson" to occur in your AO.

NOTHING wrong with an SKS, esp a para. Someone used to make an aimpoint mount for one that put the optic way forward. The triggers suck but the rifles work. Hornaday loaded 123gr amax's in steel cases for a while. A para and a bandolier with 12-15 strippers would work for some serious social work.

Back in the 1990s, when factory-new Russian SKSs were coming in for $100.00 a piece retail, there was a company selling tuned trigger groups for them. I bought one, installed it, and it was excellent. It's still in there. Works great.

Your not a cop are you? Good lord that would be a disaster.

The SKS slam fire phenomenon was talked about quite a lot during the time they were coming in in large numbers.

Here's a pretty good thread from "The Firing Line" forum circa. 2002...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129778

I've had my Chinese SKS for over 10 years now, and hardly ever a problem. Recently down at the local indoor firing range it started to do somthing interesting, 3 round burst.........

I reloaded the magzine and the same affect I squeeze the trigger I get 2-3 round bursts not all the time but pretty frequently.

and an incident so infamous and seemingly unlikely it seems almost an urban legend..

I have a reason. I watched a man die a few years ago from an SKS that went full auto on him and his buddy after they fed it from a stripper clip. Neither had a good hold on the full-auto SKS, and it rotated up as it continued firing. The last round in the magazine entered his face and exited the top of his head, right there on the firing line. Here's the report, including info from the Sacramento Bee:

As to WHEN this incident occurred I dunno, but Navy Arms put out a recall/warning way back in 1992...

http://www.firearmsid.com/Recalls/FA_Recalls%202.htm

WARNING: We hereby provide written notice to you that some Chinese SKS semiautomatic rifles may pose a serious risk of bodily injury or death.

Some of these rifles may have a manufacturing defect of the engaging surfaces in the trigger-hammer-sear assembly, which can cause intermittent failure of the sear to hold the hammer in a cocked position. This condition can result in the unexpected firing as a round is chambered, without pulling the trigger, or if the weapon is jarred or dropped. This condition may also result in sudden and unexpected automatic fire and loss of control of the firing weapon.

Perhaps not caused by firing pin inertia or sticking in these cases, but your point about using harder Mil-spec primers is well taken. My 1954 Tula example used to ding the primers on the cheap Russian ammo pretty serious.

(...and egad! Has it really been 20 years since SKS's were showing up everywhere for about $150?? )

Birdwatcher

Factory new Russian SKSs were available for $100.00 a piece in the middle 1990s. I bought four at that price. Sold one to my brother for what I paid, sold two more for a tidy profit a few years later, and kept the best one for myself, which I still have.

I have the Chinese SKS. I bought it NIB at a gun show in the early 90's. I have not shot it in years but shot it a LOT before. I have never had problems with it. I just picked up some more ammo for it and plan on shooting it again soon.

IMO, if you defy the basics of gun safety with any firearm, people are going to get hurt. It's not like if the SKS goes into full auto mode that you can't control where the barrel is pointing.

Nope. I know precious little of ballistics in general, as well as the effect of bullet designs and most anything else as far as rifles and pistols and loads go. And while I've managed to roll a few so-called big game type critters on hunts with rifles and pistols, I can say without shame nor embarrassment that while the technical wonders and realities of rifles/loads largely elude me, that one thing I can with confidence say I am pretty familiar with is the shotgun. I know well the way mine pattern loads I hunt with as well as what they will do in a pretty wide variety of applications, the vast percentage of familiarity of what I speak involves killing.

If anyone thinks that even a relatively 'wimpy' 12 bore bird load, say one I often use for teal, with an ounce or thereabouts of #4s, is practically a suicide ready to happen if used in a SD situation of the type we're talking about, well...


Let me opine and offer that the folks of that mind don't have a damned clue as to what a shotgun is capable of, and will do to tissue at close range.

Inside the confines of my home, I'd be willing to bet my life that I could render innocuous up to 5 invaders--with them armed with anything, as long as I had the luxury of shooting first -- and come out no worse for the wear, armed with one of my 12s and a magazine full of bird shot, and I would do so, if I HAD to, without much worry of any harm done to anyone that belongs in the house on the other side of an interior wall.



http://www.diagnoziz.com/facial-shotgun-wound/

Two ADF&G employees sitting in a small boat duck hunting a couple years ago almost within the Municipality of Anchorage were startled by a brown bear at very close range. The brown bear immediately turned to attack them and was met by nothing but birdshot (x12) and miraculously the bear not only failed to touch the hunters, though it sprayed them heavily with blood from its wounds, it was DRT.

Anyone foolish enough to think the birdshot would not work at indoor range and better as the perp approached has not shot much with a shottie...

Linkie: http://www.adn.com/article/girdwood-duck-hunter-recounts-unbelievable-grizzly-attack

Girdwood duck hunter recounts unbelievable grizzly attack
Craig Medred
October 18, 2011

Photos: Portage valley bear attack
The grizzly bear that attacked Tim Baker's duck blind was following a small bull moose.
Photo by Tim Baker
After the shooting stopped, with the grizzly bear dead in the marsh only feet from the duck blind, Tim Baker realized he was in shock. Everything had happened so fast, so damn fast. Only minutes before, he'd been watching a young, bull moose that came running through the brush and tall grass along Portage Creek. The moose had come and gone and passed barely out of sight when Baker and hunting buddy Steve Thompson heard the sound of something else.

Baker thought it was likely another bull moose. It was Oct. 8, the middle of moose mating season in Alaska. Plenty of moose go looking for trouble when they are in the rut. It wouldn't be unusual to see one bull chasing another, looking to pick a fight. Baker turned his head see this one. He isn't quite sure why he reached for the shotgun at the same time. Instinct maybe. A man spends fall after fall in a duck blind and some things just become instinctive. You want the gun close by, just in case.

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No telling when a couple of wigeon or a lone mallard might drop out of the sky into the decoys. They always seem to pick the most inopportune times. Best to keep the shotgun close at hand -- or, better yet -- in hand. Only later would Baker think about the odd twists of fate that mark the fine line between life and death. Having the shotgun in hand, rather then propped in the corner of the blind, might well have saved his life. It almost certainly saved him from being ripped up by a bear, something that happens to a few unlucky souls in Alaska every year.

The wilderness is still home to old, old dangers. A man of the wilderness, Baker understands them well.

"Let me tell you, I am very happy to be here to tell this story," he said in an email to friends just days after his real-life nightmare. "My friend Steve Thompson and I were duck hunting in Portage Valley, and we were attacked by a brown bear. We are both OK, but we killed the brown bear within 10 feet of our duck boat blind. This is one of those stories where you are just glad to be alive to tell it."

The email, which included pictures of the dead bear and the blood-spattered boat blind in which Baker and Thompson had been sitting, soon went viral. Baker started to get messages from people all over the country wanting to know what the hell happened. Many had a hard time imagining two guys sitting quietly in a duck blind being suddenly attacked by a bear.

No chance encounter
On a rainy, windy day in the Anchorage ski suburb of Girdwood -- just 10 or 15 miles back along the Seward Highway from the Portage marshes at the head of Turnagain Arm -- Baker meets a reporter at the door of his small home with its yard full of sporting equipment and politely says he really doesn't want to talk about the bear shooting. But then, he starts to talk, and finally he invites the reporter in.

Almost a week after the incident, Baker appears still somewhat traumatized. He admits as much. An obviously fit, blonde man of middle age, he has been duck hunting again this day. There are a couple of mallards under the canopy in the back of his pickup truck waiting to be plucked. Having grown up in Colorado, he spent much of his adult life on the edge of the Alaska wilderness, and he knows full well the adage about the need to get back on the horse after being thrown off.

The way to overcome the fear is to confront the fear. He is already confronting it, but it's not easy.

Normally, Baker confesses, he doesn't load his shotgun until he's settled in at his duck blind waiting on waterfowl. This morning, though, he stuffed it full of shells as soon as he started into the marsh. He's started packing along slugs, too -- shells designed for killing a bear. He's never carried them before, but he is now, even though he fully understands the odds of being attacked by another grizzly, while in a duck blind, while less than a mile from one of the busiest highways in Alaska, only 30 miles or so in a straight line south from Anchorage -- the largest city in the Last Frontier -- may be one in a million, or more.

And never mind that the slugs wouldn't have helped when the bear charged anyway, because there was no time to swap out the bird shot already in the gun.

Baker is a rational man, a scientist by training. He has worked for 25 years for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. As a commercial fisheries biologist studying Bristol Bay, a western region of the state known for its salmon and its giant brown bears, he has spent plenty of time around bruins. He knows they don't prey on humans. He knows they only rarely attack humans. He knows that when the latter happens it's usually because someone, often a hunter or a hiker, surprises a bear, and the animal -- faced with a choice to fight or flee -- decides to fight.

He knows just as well that most flee.

All of which serves to make what happened to him and Thompson only more incomprehensible.

"I guess if you live in Alaska long enough ..." he said.

Plenty of bears
The country in which Baker hunts waterfowl is at the western edge of a band of swamps and forests only eight miles wide that connects the mainland of Alaska to the Kenai Peninsula. Scientists at one time thought it was a bottleneck restricting the movement of large predators like wolves and bears. They have since learned otherwise. Radio-collared bears have in recent years demonstrated regular movements across the isthmus between the mainland and the Kenai.

But transients are not the only bears making use of the area. There are resident bears, too, though people seldom see them, said Sean Farley, a bear researcher for the Alaska Department of Fish and Game. He noted that he once recovered a radio-collar that a sow grizzly in one of his studies had shed -- almost within sight of a salmon-viewing platform the U.S. Forest Service built along a tributary to Portage Creek. She'd visited it with her cubs.

The Forest Service has promoted Portage Valley as a recreation destination. The federal agency has tried to boost salmon runs to the valley while building campgrounds, trails and fishing ponds, turning the salmon, which the bears love to eat, into a tourist attraction. Usually, the bears aren't a problem. Many people don't even know that the bears are around. But they are always here.

Larry Daniels, a Girdwood friend of Baker, remembers sitting in his blind out in a huge, open stretch of the Portage-Twentymile River wetlands near the Alaska Railroad tracks in 2008 when he heard a sound and turned his head to look at what he expected to be a moose crossing the wetlands. What he saw instead was a large grizzly bear staring at him. It turned and walked off when Daniels yelled. He wonders now if it could have been the same bear that attacked Baker and Thompson in brushier country just across the railroad tracks.

No time to do anything but react
Baker wishes there had been time to yell at his bear. There wasn't.

About 30 seconds after the moose appeared, Baker said, the bear showed up moving fast, nose-down like a hunting dog on the trail of quarry. Baker and Thompson had only time to recognize it was not the second moose they expected. As they were registering the reaction that this was a bear instead of another moose, the bear looked up from the scent trail and saw them. Baker estimates the animal was no more than 20 feet away at the time, and in that moment it turned and came for the two hunters.

A bear can cover 20 feet faster than a person can read the paragraph above.

Baker understood this well, and as soon as the bear came he was on his feet and shooting. Size No. 4 steel shot is not what one wants to use to stop a brown bear. Such shot is almost twice the size of the 7-1/2 shot that former Vice President Dick Cheney used to merely wound a companion in one of the country's most famous hunting accidents back in 2006. The bear at which Baker was shooting was two or three times the size of Cheney's 78-year-old hunting friend.

If the pellets from a shotgun couldn't kill an old man, how could anyone expect them to stop a large, healthy grizzly bear pumped up on adrenaline?

Well, here's the thing you need to understand about shotguns. All of those pellets come out of the muzzle together just as if they were a slug, before they start to spread apart. The closer they are to the muzzle, the less they spread. At 15 feet, they might be the diameter of a saucer. At 10 feet, they are more like a steel fist. Baker believes his first shot, fired at the distance of 15 feet or so, had little effect. He believes his second shot, which came as fast as he could work the pump on his shotgun, must have done more damage. And he is sure his final shot of the the three total coming bang, bang, bang as fast he could get them off had to have seriously injured the bear.

The shots didn't, however, seem to slow the animal down. And Baker was quickly out of shells.

Federal waterfowl laws limit duck and goose hunters to shotguns loaded with only three shells. Baker wishes he'd had about seven. That's the number that will fit in a Remington 870 pump shotgun with an extended magazine. That is the style of shotgun a lot of state wildlife officials carry when they need to deal with problem bears. They, however, stuff the magazine with slugs, not bird shot.

Bird shot, even at extremely close range, isn't the best for stopping charging bears, as Baker discovered. His three shots spent, and the bear still coming, he dived out of the boat on which the duck blind had been built. Friends have asked him what he was thinking when he did that. His answer is simple:

"I wasn't going to stay there and let the bear run over me."

Choose your hunting partners wisely
As Baker was diving out of one end of the boat, Thompson was at the other end, swinging the bead on the end of his semi-automatic shotgun at the bear. Where Baker had been forced to shoot over the rock-hard head of the bear, trying to hit it in the shoulder or spine and break it down, Thompson had the exposed flank of the animal at which to shoot. Firing as fast as he could, pointing instead of aiming, he punched three shells into the side of the bear, knocking it away from the boat and down, and then he started to reload as fast as he could.

Thompson, Baker would remember later, believes "I fired my last round when the bear was two feet away. He goes on to say that my head and the bear's head were two feet apart at one point." That would have put the bear eight to 12 feet from Thompson when he started shooting.

Baker originally told friends that he and Thompson were shooting at the bear's head, but they both later realized they had instinctively tried to avoid that, knowing how famous bears are for their thick skulls. Thompson's shots, the two would discover after skinning the bear, ripped into the animals chest and did mortal, though not instantly fatal, damage.

The third of Thompson's shots did, fortunately, knock the bear into a spin, which gave Thompson time to reload. He shot it three more times as Baker scrambled back into the boat, grabbed his own shotgun and reloaded. Baker then put another three rounds into the bear as quick as he could. He's not sure now that shots 10, 11 and 12 were absolutely necessary, but in the moment he and Thompson were -- for lack of a better word -- freaked.

"Neither of us was hurt, not a scratch," Baker emailed friends. "We were just scared [bleep]. We had two dogs with us. The older dog, Mynx, was out of the blind with hackles up about 20 feet away from the bear. The young, 5-months dog, Lulu, was hidden under one of the chairs in the boat, She was shaking and wouldn't come out for awhile. On a side note, we got one duck, a gadwall.

"I have attached a few photos. You will see our boat blind is destroyed. That was from me diving out one side of the blind and the bear coming in the other. There is also a picture of blood on the blind to show how close the bear was when he got shot."

After the nightmare
By law, it is legal to shoot a grizzly bear in self defense in the state of Alaska. These shootings are known by an acronym: DLP. DLP stands for Defense of Life and Property. A DLP shooting is not the sort of thing in which any sensible person wants to be engaged, however, because the DLP law has a couple onerous requirements.

The least of them is the paperwork which must be filled out. More demanding is the stipulation that anyone involved in a DLP kill must skin the bear, remove its skull, and then deliver the hide and skull to the state. The hides are auctioned every year to help raise money for the Fish and Game department. Skinning bears is a time-consuming task. The same goes for packing out a hide that can weigh 100 pounds or more.

Baker and Thompson were lucky in that they have a friend in Portage who lives near where they hunt and has an all-terrain vehicle. They were able to borrow that to drag the dead bear's carcass to the bank of Portage Creek, where the two still very shaken duck hunters skinned it. The hide is now with the state. Farley, the bear researcher with Fish and Game, got the skull. He said it is that of a healthy, mature adult bear. Not a giant bear, but one big enough to tear a man apart.

As to why it attacked, Farley has no clue. But he suspects the incident falls into the surprise-encounter category, the only twist in this case being that the bear stumbled upon the people instead of the other way around.

"The duck blind made a good bear blind," Farley said.

Baker agrees. He, too, believes the bear was surprised to see the two men there and given the choice to fight or flee made a bad choice for all involved. The last thing he or Thompson ever wanted was to find themselves needing to shoot a bear while duck hunting, he said. But of the need to shoot it, he has no doubt, although since his email spread across the Internet he has heard those from those Outside chastising him for killing a grizzly.

"They don't have a clue as to how we live in Alaska," Baker said.

There is no telling what might have happened if Baker hadn't shot. Most people attacked by grizzly bears in Alaska survive. Some of the survivors, however, suffer massive injuries. Wes Perkins of Nome was attacked by a grizzly in May on the Seward Peninsula in Northwest Alaska. He spent June and July at the Harborview Medical Center in Seattle. Doctors needed to do reconstructive surgery on his face. When he finally returned to Alaska in August, it wasn't to go home to Nome.

He moved into his sister's house in Anchorage so he could continue medical treatments as a Providence Medical Center outpatient. At that point, he was still unable to talk because of the tube doctors put in his throat. His brother Nate reported at the time that "he (has) had nine surgeries, so far. They expect him to come back down in six weeks to Harborview" for more.

Perkins' treatment is ongoing. Baker understands full well his own luck in killing the bear before it could get hold of him.

Spend enough time off the road in the back country of Alaska, Baker said, and you will have some sort of dangerous encounter with a bear. It's inevitable. Just hope and pray you're lucky. Alaska is blessed with a large and healthy population of grizzlies, a species pushed to the edge of extinction in the Lower 48. They are wonderful animals. It's just that when things go wrong the blessing can start to look like a curse, and it can happen almost anywhere.

Farley noted that a grizzly of nearly 800 pounds was struck and killed by a car on Lake Otis Boulevard just outside of Midtown Anchorage this August. It had apparently been hanging out in a greenbelt behind Spring Hill Elementary School. Clearly, Farley said, that bear didn't want any problems with people. It grew to its size and ripe old age, in fact, by actively avoiding people. But all it takes is the wrong encounter in the wrong place with the wrong circumstances at the wrong time for a chance encounter to turn ugly.

Just ask Tim Baker and Steve Thompson.

Contact Craig Medred at craig(at)alaskadispatch.com

...and Bingo was his name-o.

Fuggin' right.

Many years ago while visiting the old family farm in NY I took the buckshot out of a factory shell and split them with a chisel, part way through. Then I crimped them on a piece of stranded wire and stuffed it into the shell.

It took several attempts but I finally whacked a woodchuck at about 20 yards with one of them as he left his burrow. It almost cut him in two, with just a shred of hide holding fore and aft together. The whistle as that string left sticks with me to this day, more than 4 decades later...

Ah, ye olde Whistle Pig load. Makes sense.

If that bruin wasn't mounted in a classic wing-cupped, neck outstretched, spilling air as it parachutes nobly into the meat of the set blocks pose, I'm disappointed.

Yep. A $150 chopped and channeled twelve bore of forged steel and walnut, a JC Higgins pawn shop piece, loaded with high base 2 3/4" lead 4's works for us.

One of Ayoob's caveats is the anecdote of a homeowner who shot an intruder with birdshot, apparently from somewhat further than ten feet away. The perp survived, but horribly disfigured and permanently blinded.

According to Ayoob the homeowner did not face a criminal penalty, but was ruined financially in civil court when sued by the intruder whose maimed visage swayed the jury.

Perhaps #4's in a good compromise, I'm wondering if #2's wouldn't be even better, short of OOO buck.

Birdwatcher

Vote republican in November. Purge the Democrats from the Senate.

there are a lot of firearms that do NOT have a firing pin return spring, not just the S.K.S.
A lot of these slamfiring episodes in a s.k.s. can be traced back to the owner NOT cleaning the cosmoline out of the channel the pin operates in. It just stick out and slams into the new round.
Translated a lot of people never bothered to clean the gunk out of the gun then are surprised when it slamfires. I have loaded for both the garand and carbine for years without specific hard military primers, without issue. But then I am seating the primers deep to avoid high primers.

Has anyone shot a 150gr or heavier bullet in the sks?

Everybody knows a CX4 Storm 9mm Rifle using frangible ammunition is the best home defense every invented

I ain't compromising with anybody that invades my house. Birdshot might penetrate, buckshot will. Shoot buckshot. Our house shot shucker is a 20 gauge with but #3 buck in a 2 3/4" hull. But I have no doubt it'll ventilate you well across the living room.

edit: Oh, that being said, as a mere teenaged child suffering boredom I once or twice competed with my peers to see how big a pine sapling could be shot down with #8 shot. Seem to remember it'd chop a 3" to 4" trunk at about 6 feet. But it wudn't trying to kill me.

I think most of the birdshot damage is from the wad. I do believe in giving my house guest and neighbors a little consideration.

That little wad with almost no weight and arms designed to spread out and catch wind... is going to do the most damage???

Thinking that is a fail...

I think you get the point, don't use birdshot unless its encapsulated to expand on impact.
I'm not much on shotgun in urban areas but I guess buckshot in the country or a mosque is ok.

Disagree in full.

Huh? lol. No offense, but it's clear you aren't a scattergun scholar, friend. 'Expand on impact'? lol

Having shot a LOT of fur with shotguns and ruined more than some at distances I thought long enough I can assure you loose birdshot at close range is prone to doing serious damage...

Even with buckshot in fairly close quarters, it very rarely stops immediately. Point blank, yes. Use birdshot if you want but if the bad guy is shooting back, more power to ya.

the length of an average 2500 square foot house can render your #6 shot ineffective.

P.S. Anyone taking an ounce+ of lead/steel/other at close range needn't be worried about any expansion issues harming him. The 500 grains +/_ of metal humming along at around 1550 (speed of my waterfowl loads I use most) hitting him is what he ought to be terrified of.

It really depends on the load and the distance. Granted you are facing average crackheads but the closer you are to bad guy with your long gun the more things that can go wrong for you.

Kamo, Your ignorance makes me laugh.

http://www.tacticaledgeproducts.com/shotgunammo.html

Ooh look, it's TACTICAL shotgun ammo, designed to come apart on impact! OK, killer, you win.

We can talk about it here over a beer and a football game

http://www.polcarisbridgwayeinn.com

I guess you can't be all bad.

I've only been to the one in Saugus; it's decent. The Green Harbor Lobster Pound is better, IMNSHO, if it's the Marshfield area. Happy to continue the banter there, or elsewhere, for a meal, game and beers. As long as you're not rooting against the Pats, we're good.



Just know I stand by my opinion, though. Bird shot especially at close range, will do a terrifying amount of damage to tissue.

Shot does great at point blank range for sure.

If that was point blank the spread/pattern wouldn't be so broad. I shoot a fully-choked Beretta for waterfowl, and with my go-to load of 2s, it'll pattern much like that at 20 feet...

An SKS would make a decent defense gun. By the sounds of it, you want a universal "ranch gun". A couple things that I would consider, is capacity, length, ammunition, and sighting.

The first one is pretty easy to fix; while I think that for 90+% of bad social situations, ten rounds is probably enough, there is nothing that I would rather not do than reload when I should be shooting. Get the steel 30 round magazine. Its more durable than the plastic ones (especially in the cold) reliable, and drop right in, as soon as you take out the old one.

Length is a harder one, and because of the gas operation best left alone. But overall in certain house situations, it is about 8" too long in barrel length to be ideal in the house. Probably would not bother me, if I was not debating it on the webz, or unless I was putting together a list of ideal attributes.

Kind of mixing up the order here, but that brings me to sights. The front sight sticks up and is too easy to grab if someone got the opportunity. That's kind of a nit pick, but I'm speaking about the ideal; don't forget. And irons suck in the dark. A better choice would be a scope or a red dot sight. I put a scope on mine, not on the receiver where it will change the zero every time you take it down. A better choice for quicker acquisition would be a red dot or a reflex sight, mounted up front in a "scout rifle position". Though that may be a pain as well.

For ammo, there is not much in the way of selection. Most of it is corrosively primed FMJ. Be prepared to clean it lots. There is softpoint hunting ammunition from PMC, but I have never seen .312 varmint bullets yet.