came on in my 2005 GMC pickup. Great, I thought, another $200 gone. I wish. It was two sensors called 'knock' sensors that notes when the engine starts to do something that used to make the valves rattle and it retards the timing. I could have put a piece of black tape over the light because my mechanic said that it wouldn't hurt to drive it. Problem is, though, if something else goes wrong the light won't warn me.
With a long breath (a sigh to you city folks) I axed him how much would it cost. They are located, of all places, under the intake manifold so everything has to come off. The book gives 3 hours and that's what I was charged for but it really only took 2 hours. Total= $600.54 for everything. That took care of my gun show this weekend but, Lord knows, I have enough guns.
Best part of all? My check engine light is off. You know you're living right when the check engine light not burning is one of the highlights of the day.
I don't get worked up over 'check engine lights'. Much of the time it's an 02 sensor in the exhaust system or some minor issue. You need oil quantity and pressure, and the cooling system in tact. Yes I've heard about the better fuel mileage and other issues, just seldom see any higher priority reasons for the light.
It's almost a boderline scam to get you in the shop too.
That knock sensor system will prevent your engine from pinging (pre-detonation). It is a helpful measure to prevent damage internally (pistons). Think of the $$ you spent as insurance for the future life of the engine.
BTW.. the check engine lite illuminates for a number of reasons, possibly 200+ different permutations. Everyone assumes HO2 sensors because of what they read in magazines or see on the boob tube. This can not be further from the truth.
Also many states will deem a check engine lite a failure for the inspection process.
The check engine light would come on on a Ford Escort I used to own whenever the gas filler cap had not sealed well. I would imagine a loose or worn gas cap could do the same on some other brands of motor vehicles.
I don't get worked up over 'check engine lights'. Much of the time it's an 02 sensor in the exhaust system or some minor issue. You need oil quantity and pressure, and the cooling system in tact. Yes I've heard about the better fuel mileage and other issues, just seldom see any higher priority reasons for the light.
It's almost a boderline scam to get you in the shop too.
Not "borderline" at all. It is a royal scam. And the car manufacturerers keep making it more and more expensive and difficult for noon dealer machanics - let alone do it yourselfers- to diagnose or repair anything. And yes, they do it ON PURPOSE. One of the big reasons that mechanic shops have to charge such a high hourly rate is to try and amortize the cost of new diagnostic equipment constantly. Plus the high cost of liability insurance due to all of the ambualance chasers and folks who try to turn an honest mistake into a lottery win.
I am going to sell my '03 gas rig, (check engine light has beeen on for a couple of years now) and get a pre 2000 Diesel 4WD truck of some kind. Most likely something with a 7.3 Powerstroke or a Cummins 6 cyl turbodiesel.
Many states have annual or bi-annual vehicle inspection programs for safety as well as emissions systems. Without the inspection you are unable to re-register the vehicle.
That knock sensor system will prevent your engine from pinging (pre-detonation). It is a helpful measure to prevent damage internally (pistons). Think of the $$ you spent as insurance for the future life of the engine.
BTW.. the check engine lite illuminates for a number of reasons, possibly 200+ different permutations. Everyone assumes HO2 sensors because of what they read in magazines or see on the boob tube. This can not be further from the truth.
Also many states will deem a check engine lite a failure for the inspection process.
came on in my 2005 GMC pickup. Great, I thought, another $200 gone. I wish. It was two sensors called 'knock' sensors that notes when the engine starts to do something that used to make the valves rattle and it retards the timing. I could have put a piece of black tape over the light because my mechanic said that it wouldn't hurt to drive it. Problem is, though, if something else goes wrong the light won't warn me.
With a long breath (a sigh to you city folks) I axed him how much would it cost. They are located, of all places, under the intake manifold so everything has to come off. The book gives 3 hours and that's what I was charged for but it really only took 2 hours. Total= $600.54 for everything. That took care of my gun show this weekend but, Lord knows, I have enough guns.
Best part of all? My check engine light is off. You know you're living right when the check engine light not burning is one of the highlights of the day.
I know its not much consolation Mickey, but a Porsche 993 requires engine removal to be able to remove the intake manifold, then the tin cooling ducts, to get to the knock sensors which are only $245.00 each. Soooo, mid teens in labor plus parts. Oh, and while you're there, might as well replace ignition wires as they also require manifold removal to do, all 12 of them (2 plugs per cylinder) and both caps and rotors too. Wire set is about $900.00 or so.........
Chuck the Engine light is a cash cow for service departments. As for the book saying that a job that took two hours is a three-hour job and the charge is made accordingly, that is crap.
I know its not much consolation Mickey, but a Porsche 993 requires engine removal to be able to remove the intake manifold, then the tin cooling ducts, to get to the knock sensors which are only $245.00 each. Soooo, mid teens in labor plus parts. Oh, and while you're there, might as well replace ignition wires as they also require manifold removal to do, all 12 of them (2 plugs per cylinder) and both caps and rotors too. Wire set is about $900.00 or so.........
If you can afford the toy you can afford the tender.
Get an obd-II scanner so you can read the codes on your vehicle(s)
Whenever our vehicles have thrown codes I end up hooking up the scanner, saying oh crap this is gonna cost me and I've yet to get away with a bill in only the 100's.
The CEL and the self diagnostic computer systems on newer vehicles are there for a reason and they're not a scam. O2 sensors, knock sensors, and crankshaft position sensors (just to name a few) are critical for optimum engine performance and efficiency. Computerized engine management systems rely on the readings to adjust fuel mixtures and timing. Sensors in the braking system are there for safety reasons.
There are some sensors that are strictly emissions related that won't affect driveability like a EVAP sensor that detects a loss of fuel vapor which could be nothing more than a loose gas cap.
At one time in Alaska (don't know if it's still the same) all that was needed to pass an emissions test was no CEL. It was enough to ensure that a vehicle was operating efficiently and with no excessive emissions.
If your CEL is on and you want to know what's happening take it to a parts store and have them read the code with a scanner. Most all major parts chains will do it for free.
Get an obd-II scanner so you can read the codes on your vehicle(s)
Whenever our vehicles have thrown codes I end up hooking up the scanner, saying oh crap this is gonna cost me and I've yet to get away with a bill in only the 100's.
yea, worst can scenario, you can not only read the codes but clear them out too - to turn off the light until the code trips again.
How did we ever get along without the check engine light? If we could pluck the bulb, we'd be back to where we were before the light and all would be good.
Not "borderline" at all. It is a royal scam. And the car manufacturerers keep making it more and more expensive and difficult for noon dealer machanics - let alone do it yourselfers- to diagnose or repair anything.
That's absolutely false.
Diagnostic codes make it far easier for a DIYer or a mechanic to diagnose and repair problems. It takes the guess work out.
If you pull the code(s) and do some internet research a competent DIY mechanic can accomplish repairs without resorting to taking it to a shop.
Many states have annual or bi-annual vehicle inspection programs for safety as well as emissions systems. Without the inspection you are unable to re-register the vehicle.
-Ken
I try to stay away from those states. I prefer the free ones.
How did we ever get along without the check engine light? If we could pluck the bulb, we'd be back to where we were before the light and all would be good.
People drove until the engines stopped working, or until they'd done so much damage to them they were not repairable.
I'll second the suggestion to get or borrow a code scanner. I kept getting the CEL in my Durango and it turned out to be just the gas cap. (My friendly garage had replaced the original one because it was 12 years old. The new one was the faulty one. Sigh...)
I would too but I'm that sort of guy. The old Explorer does the check engine light intermittently under certain load conditions which I can't exactly pin down. Coaxed the error code out of the box and it basically says nothing. Or rather nothing specific, just that the fuel injector impulse was longer than expected. Absolutely no other symptoms so I try to ignore it but very irritating. I'm old enough to remember when the engine idiot light came on it meant something important.
I have an '04 Pontiac Montana. Last year the light came on for the front O2 sensor. I could easily look at it but it took an arm with 3 elbows to get at it.
A friend had a 90 something Ford Aerostar with the V6. Changing the #6 plug required pulling the engine. He sold it with well over 100k and 5 new plugs.
That knock sensor system will prevent your engine from pinging (pre-detonation). It is a helpful measure to prevent damage internally (pistons). Think of the $$ you spent as insurance for the future life of the engine.
BTW.. the check engine lite illuminates for a number of reasons, possibly 200+ different permutations. Everyone assumes HO2 sensors because of what they read in magazines or see on the boob tube. This can not be further from the truth.
Also many states will deem a check engine lite a failure for the inspection process.
-Ken
We don't have vehicle inspections in Alabama. Some people say we're backwards but we are usually reluctant to let the government into our lives.
That's the reason I replaced it. This is my last vehicle I ever intend to buy so I keep it in tip top condition. Purrs like a kitten with only 127,000 miles on it. Gets 21+ mpg on the interstate but I only drive 60 mph now due to my eyesight. Just being careful and I don't have to be anywhere so why hurry?
It's a curse I have to endure that I cannot abide having something that is not in good condition. It costs me more to maintain a vehicle than it does most people and I doubt that I'll change if I haven't changed by now.
came on in my 2005 GMC pickup. Great, I thought, another $200 gone. I wish. It was two sensors called 'knock' sensors that notes when the engine starts to do something that used to make the valves rattle and it retards the timing. I could have put a piece of black tape over the light because my mechanic said that it wouldn't hurt to drive it. Problem is, though, if something else goes wrong the light won't warn me.
With a long breath (a sigh to you city folks) I axed him how much would it cost. They are located, of all places, under the intake manifold so everything has to come off. The book gives 3 hours and that's what I was charged for but it really only took 2 hours. Total= $600.54 for everything. That took care of my gun show this weekend but, Lord knows, I have enough guns.
Best part of all? My check engine light is off. You know you're living right when the check engine light not burning is one of the highlights of the day.
I know its not much consolation Mickey, but a Porsche 993 requires engine removal to be able to remove the intake manifold, then the tin cooling ducts, to get to the knock sensors which are only $245.00 each. Soooo, mid teens in labor plus parts. Oh, and while you're there, might as well replace ignition wires as they also require manifold removal to do, all 12 of them (2 plugs per cylinder) and both caps and rotors too. Wire set is about $900.00 or so.........
Au contraire, my friend. Scripture tells us to give thanks in all things. Not owning a Porsche gives me one more reason to give thanks at night. I pray you and the missus are doing well.
Not "borderline" at all. It is a royal scam. And the car manufacturerers keep making it more and more expensive and difficult for noon dealer machanics - let alone do it yourselfers- to diagnose or repair anything.
That's absolutely false.
Diagnostic codes make it far easier for a DIYer or a mechanic to diagnose and repair problems. It takes the guess work out.
If you pull the code(s) and do some internet research a competent DIY mechanic can accomplish repairs without resorting to taking it to a shop.
And I have a friend that owns a code reader and does this, or so he claims. I ain't about to start pulling the manifold on a Vortec engine and start replacing things. Not in a million years. Didn't mind spending the $$$ to have them do it and besides, the co-owner of this place is one of the most honest men I've ever known. I trust him totally.
I had a CEL for many years too. Pissed me off that I had to go to the dealer to figure out what it was. I hate the stealer.
Buddy's simple code scanner said EGR system. Decided to let it ride. Bothered me to see it on the dash though. Never sure if something else had popped up. Finally decided to chase it down when they ramped up smog checks for diesels. Turned out to be a solenoid. Easy fix. $25, a 1/2-inch socket, and 10 minutes. Once I was pretty sure what it was, I called, and stealer wanted 1 hour plus $65 for the part, but of course they "could not be sure that is what it was until they got the truck in house." :rolleyes: Saw the return on buying a good scanner right away.
When I installed a lift pump, got the CEL. Fuel rail pressure. Adjusted the pressure on the lift pump, fixed it. Nice.
My code scanner is an EFI Live unit that also is a programmer. $650. Now I can read and diagnose CEL's plus program different tunes. I like mild tunes, but a tune for towing, one for economy, and one for a few extra safe horses (20%), is nice to have. It is possible to tune out all the emissions crap too, although I would NEVER do that! So when I drive 1500 miles each way on a hunting trip, I load the economy tune, and sip diesel at 75-80 mph. Once I arrive, I load the 20%-over tune, and I billy goat the back roads in 4x4. Leaving back home, load the economy tune again. Love it!
Also, I periodically take a ride with all the diagnostics on and get unbelievable feedback on a whole lot of stuff, some of which is huge like injector balance rates, to head stuff off at the pass. But there is sooooo much data available that it boggles the mind. It's a great way to have some insight into what's going in in your truck, and for a preventative maintenance type of guy, like me, it is invaluable.
Sooooo, I hated CEL's at first, but decided to join them instead of trying to beat them, and with a good scanner/programmer, I think it's better than waiting for a noise to alert you to a problem. Yeah, there will be things I can't fix myself, but at least I will know what I am in for.
Plus, going to the dealer and saying "my balance rate on my #8 injector is out of spec and my injector warranty expires in 30 days. Return rates ares still good, the CP3 is to spec, all the filters are new, and I've done the Gm injector cleaning " is different from "My truck is running rough and smoking."
It's worth getting with the program. They are not going away.
We don't have vehicle inspections in South Dakota either. Partly because we're a little more than reluctant to let government into our lives but probably more because a large minority of vehicles couldn't pass and couldn't be made to pass.
Can't fault a guy for wanting his vehicle in perfect condition, those aren't the guys I pass on the side of the Interstate.
I've got a fairly cheap reader, ScanGuageII ($150 or so) and it has pointed me in the right direction many times on GM, Honda, and Ford vehicles.
Many people talk about vehicles these days and what it takes to fix them. They look the other way when you point out a vehicle today with 225,000 miles still runs very well, while a vehicle from 40 years ago was on its last legs at 100,000 miles. Saying that, I fully admit the cost of buying a vehicle today is magnitudes above the one from 40 years ago.
For early PRE obd ll tbi vehicle, you can read your trouble codes without a scanner. You just need a paper clip or short piece of wire, explanation on how to, and what the codes mean at this link.
Not "borderline" at all. It is a royal scam. And the car manufacturerers keep making it more and more expensive and difficult for noon dealer machanics - let alone do it yourselfers- to diagnose or repair anything.
That's absolutely false.
Diagnostic codes make it far easier for a DIYer or a mechanic to diagnose and repair problems. It takes the guess work out.
If you pull the code(s) and do some internet research a competent DIY mechanic can accomplish repairs without resorting to taking it to a shop.
Fish head is right, a code scanner makes diagnosing and/or fixing a modern vehicle so much easier for the home mechanic. At the very least, they will help you know what the problem is BEFORE you head to the dealer. If you have and Android phone, you can buy an application called Torque Pro. Then all you need is a Bluetooth reader from Amazon that plugs into your OBDII port and you're set to read your engine codes as well monitor how your engine and transmission is operating while parked or driving. There are similar programs available iPhones. Total cost for the program and the reader is around $40.
And it's not auto manufactures that have pushed this new auto technology. Government fuel economy and emission rules have driven auto manufacturers to squeeze every drop of fuel economy from engines while making them cleaner than ever. OBDII is your friend, read the codes then check the internet for what is wrong. Often you'll find detailed instructions on internet forums on how to repair the problem yourself.
Get an obd-II scanner so you can read the codes on your vehicle(s)
Whenever our vehicles have thrown codes I end up hooking up the scanner, saying oh crap this is gonna cost me and I've yet to get away with a bill in only the 100's.
A friend has the BAFX scanner which sends the data to any Android smartphone via Bluetooth. It costs 14 bucks and works great according to him. It lets you clear trouble codes, turn of the "check engine" light -- all with just a little poking & stroking your Android's screen as you sit comfortably in a car seat. Also, it doesn't just give you a numerical fault code, it tells you in English what the code means. BAFX link at Amazon I see this is the number one scanner in Amazon sales -- great reviews too. I have one on my Chrismas list.
Anyway, for 7 bucks (wired version) to 14 bucks (wireless Android Bluetooth version, buying one of these scanners isn't hard to justify even if you can do only minor repairs yourself. Heck, even if you do NOT do your own repairs, having such a scanner could keep you from getting ripped off.
Looks like Walt and I were posting similar things at the same time.
That wireless Bluetooth ODB-II by BAFX (or another company perhaps) route is pretty slick and the Torque Pro app from the Google Play store is 4 bucks, bringing the grand total to 18 bucks.
Looks like Walt and I were posting similar things at the same time.
That wireless Bluetooth ODB-II by BAFX (or another company perhaps) route is pretty slick and the Torque Pro app from the Google Play store is 4 bucks, bringing the grand total to 18 bucks.
Amazingly cheap, IMNSHO.
Great minds think alike?
Yes, I have the BAFX bluetooth reader and Torque Pro, but I bought mine a couple years ago and I think the prices were higher. At $18 for the reader and the program everyone should have one of these, even if you're not a mechanic. Then instead of going into the dealer with the engine light on not knowing what is wrong and having your muffler bearings and blinker fluid replaced - again, you can say "My engine light is on, the trouble code is "xxxx" and I need a new o2 sensor." It's always better to be an informed customer.
This thread is funny by some standards !! The other day when this old fellow was cussing all the new electronics on these newer %�+%^+= motors I reminded him that used to be tha 100,000 mile motor was getting lots of miles on it , nowadays that ain't chit for milage on one
I haven't had one lately, but son did. It was a transmission going away. His 05 Pintiac clears by unhooking the battery. Too bad that couldn't fix the tranny. Old F150 lit up with bad plugs (Ford plugs are another thread). New ones turned it off. I also have had "bad" gas do the deed.
One EMP, and all our stuff will quit unless it is a 52 Hudson. So far my legs still work with only a little complaint from the back.
This thread is funny by some standards !! The other day when this old fellow was cussing all the new electronics on these newer %�+%^+= motors I reminded him that used to be tha 100,000 mile motor was getting lots of miles on it , nowadays that ain't chit for milage on one
this....yeah the damn thing is a lil touchy but it also lets you know about certain problems before they snowball and get REALLY expensive to fix.....
Back when i owned a dodge pu.i bought a scanner to find out what was the matter.
Having sold the truck i leave it at my bud's auto parts store,so he can use it on folks stuff when they come in. Don't recall how much it cost but it has made him a lot of money.
I picked up an Actron scanner from Sears a few years back. If the CEL comes on at least I can identify the problem myself and avoid getting reamed at the dealer or auto parts store.
Another good resource is ALLDATAdiy.com . For a few bucks you get online access to the service manuals for your vehicle.
The Manufacturers could care less about the repair shops regardless whether they are dealers or independents. Why would they? How would they benefit? Their motivation is meeting EPA milage standards and cost of manufacturing. We take for granted much of the technology in vehicles today. That said be prepared to pay for it when your warranty expires or do it yourself.
Owning a scanner to pull codes will not enable you enough info to fix the problem. Sometimes you will guess right, but don't count on it for even a minute. A code identification will only get me in the ball park, period. That's only the very beginning, unless you depend upon lucky guessing. I'm not allowed to guess. Just because a code shows HO2 sensor (oxygen sensor problem), that by no means identifies the sensors as bad. There are circuit wiring, pcm, and other sensors that are all part of the system and need to be evaluated.
People make me laugh when they read codes and come to a split second decision as to the cause of the problem. It can take hours to just diagnose these systems today, forget about the actual repair.
Yes, as I recall we used to sell a lot of parts to guys out of our parts department with their own or a buddies scanners. We would warn them they were not returnable. Some would be back for part after part. Some got buy cheaper some didn't. Sometimes the car showed up at our shop after a few days. Of course always with the list of new parts that They had installed. We sold a lot of wiring harness connectors also. Seems thats an art getting them apart without breaking them. LOL. I just spent $2200 on my a/c so I know what its like to pay a big shop bill.
Sometimes the scanner pinpoints the problem exactly. Sometimes not. I am pretty experienced with motor vehicles and by using the scanner in conjunction with other resources I can usually find and fix the problem myself.
One time my truck just started dying while going down the road. CEL came on. Scan showed that problem was the speed sensor in the transmission. $20 part and about 10 min labor, problem solved.
In ten thousand years archeologists will be slowly whisking away dust toward a strange orange glow. When they finally uncover it they will read "Check Engine".
I don't know if this works any more since my new Toyotas give a procedure for turning off the light in the owners manual, but, we used to just disconnect the battery for 1 minute and reconnect it. That usually reset the light.
As others have said, my T100 has 178,000+ and the "Check Engine" light greets me on startup and stays as my constant companion until I shut her down. I wouldn't know what to do without it.
Even if I knew the problem I don't have the tools, knowledge or desire to work in a cramped engine compartment for hours. For whatever the reason(s) our vehicles have become more complicated with time. They are far better than the vehicles of my youth, too.
I can't make myself believe that the factories designed these systems as a means to scam owners out of their money. If I were a dealer or parts house that had to constantly deal with a customer that was doing everything possible to keep from spending a dime with me I don't think I'd bend over backwards to keep him from wasting a dollar.
When my older brother came back from The Hague in '67 he was going to buy a new car. A two door Plymouth Belvedere. I asked him if he were getting a/c on it and he let me know right then he was not about to pay some auto company $400 for an air conditioner. I told him, to no avail, that he was making a mistake. He was an engineer that worked for Redstone Arsenal and you couldn't tell him anything.
Two years later he decided that he needed a station wagon so he went back to the Plymouth dealer in Huntsville to trade. The same salesman that sold him the Belvedere told him they were not the least bit interested in taking the Belvedere in on trade. When he asked them the reason they told him they couldn't sell a car without a/c. I snickered.
Another example of his all-knowing genius; he was showing me his property out in Lacey's Spring (even though I could see every square foot from the dining room table). He showed me his persimmon tree and pointed to a beautiful persimmon on the tree that was a deep orange. Only problem was the persimmon was slick and shiny. He remarked that there was a good one right there. I told him it was not ready. He argued that it was...just look at that color.
After being put in my place I told him to dig in and enjoy it. He plucked it off and popped it into his mouth and bit down....for about a second. I looked at him and said that I didn't have a college education like his but I did know enough to know you don't eat a persimmon that is not shriveled up like a prune.
FWIW, the check light came on my wife's 2005 Chevy 5.3 and the truck would barely run by the time she made it 3 miles to home. It has been a while but I believe it was either a bad NOx sensor or bad O2 sensor.
Light can be as simple as a loose gas cap. Ask me I know, cost $75 at the shop to find that out. We do Auto zone freebie now, and then decide what's the next move.
OBDII diagnostics have saved me a ton of garage fees over the years. Whenever I get a CEL I read it with a code reader and hit the internet. There is almost always a trend to be found and diagnostics to pinpoint the problem. I like to do my own wrenching so that helps also.
Me too -- $120,000+ miles of check engine light...
About 5 years now on my 2000 Silverado. Last I heard at a $90 diagnostic cost was, it is an emission part for $800 that you don't really need... In Virginia, the light being on is not a "fail" on the inspection.
I'll have the parts store read the code, then I'll hit Google to see how often the code points to a specific part, how hard that part is to replace, and how often that's really the problem. If it looks like a good chance that I'd be blindly throwing parts at it, I'll take it to the mechanic.
Sometimes I get lucky. The kid's Taurus threw a 0153, & we had it read as a bad 02 sensor. We checked all the wires leading to the 02 sensors for fraying, & that their connectors were solidly in place. We also checked the air filter, & the fit of the lid on the air box. I wiggled all the vacuum hoses I could find, then we pulled the battery cable for 10 minutes, & crossed our fingers. 2 months a few hundred miles later, we're still in good shape.
My cel came on the first time I filled up when I bought my used '99 Chevy. A mechanic friend read it and told me it was a bad Evap cannister. No big deal. He reset the light and told me not to fill it all the way up (until the pump clicks) anymore.
A few years later a crankshaft sensor went bad. I didn't get involved in changing it, but from what I understand it wasn't much fun.
Back when i owned a dodge pu.i bought a scanner to find out what was the matter.
Having sold the truck i leave it at my bud's auto parts store,so he can use it on folks stuff when they come in. Don't recall how much it cost but it has made him a lot of money.
did the code come back and say " you bought a Dodge"
I've got a fairly cheap reader, ScanGuageII ($150 or so) and it has pointed me in the right direction many times on GM, Honda, and Ford vehicles.
If you have a smartphone, you can get one of those OBD2/Bluetooth dongles for not very much (less than $8.00 here), download a free app called Torque, and have something close to the kind of engine monitor available for airplanes. (You don't get cylinder-by-cylinder temps, but you'd be amazed at what you can get in real time from that dongle.)
Of course you can see why your light's on and turn it off if you want, but that's only the very beginning.
Not "borderline" at all. It is a royal scam. And the car manufacturerers keep making it more and more expensive and difficult for noon dealer machanics - let alone do it yourselfers- to diagnose or repair anything.
That's absolutely false.
Diagnostic codes make it far easier for a DIYer or a mechanic to diagnose and repair problems. It takes the guess work out.
If you pull the code(s) and do some internet research a competent DIY mechanic can accomplish repairs without resorting to taking it to a shop.
Fish head is right, a code scanner makes diagnosing and/or fixing a modern vehicle so much easier for the home mechanic. At the very least, they will help you know what the problem is BEFORE you head to the dealer. If you have and Android phone, you can buy an application called Torque Pro. Then all you need is a Bluetooth reader from Amazon that plugs into your OBDII port and you're set to read your engine codes as well monitor how your engine and transmission is operating while parked or driving. There are similar programs available iPhones. Total cost for the program and the reader is around $40.
And it's not auto manufactures that have pushed this new auto technology. Government fuel economy and emission rules have driven auto manufacturers to squeeze every drop of fuel economy from engines while making them cleaner than ever. OBDII is your friend, read the codes then check the internet for what is wrong. Often you'll find detailed instructions on internet forums on how to repair the problem yourself.
after recommendations here I bought the android dongle on Amazon - I have a USB code reader that hooks up to a laptop. The database in the laptop software gives you more detail and basically saves the extra step of having to google what the code means but the dongle/droid combination is much easier than that.
I've got a fairly cheap reader, ScanGuageII ($150 or so) and it has pointed me in the right direction many times on GM, Honda, and Ford vehicles.
If you have a smartphone, you can get one of those OBD2/Bluetooth dongles for not very much (less than $8.00 here), download a free app called Torque, and have something close to the kind of engine monitor available for airplanes. (You don't get cylinder-by-cylinder temps, but you'd be amazed at what you can get in real time from that dongle.)
Of course you can see why your light's on and turn it off if you want, but that's only the very beginning.
I just ordered one based on your say-so. I have a smart phone that I'm too dumb to use but maybe I can learn. I'm willing to give it a try just to be able to know what's happening. Thanks.
'Nother question: how do I download the file 'Torque'? I told you I was dumb on all this.
Dang light came on yesterday afternoon on way to the toy store. Kinda put a crimp on my plans, least in the back of my mind. First step is to put the OBD reader on it and see what the deal is. To me, that's it's main value - is this a big problem, or a little problem and can limp on a while.
yep - just click on the the apps icon in the lower right corner of your screen, then keep swiping the apps screen to get to the ones (assuming yours are in alphabetical order) to the "p"'s. Look for Play Store app, and from there its pretty self intuitive to search for torque and install it.
And it's not auto manufactures that have pushed this new auto technology. Government fuel economy and emission rules have driven auto manufacturers to squeeze every drop of fuel economy from engines while making them cleaner than ever.
You are exactly right. Govt demands lower emissions & higher fuel economy - two opposing forces.
Actually the automotive computer system was quite the innovation by the auto manufacturers. Great innovation.
And it's not auto manufactures that have pushed this new auto technology. Government fuel economy and emission rules have driven auto manufacturers to squeeze every drop of fuel economy from engines while making them cleaner than ever.
Actually the automotive computer system was quite the innovation by the auto manufacturers. Great innovation.
-Ken
It wasn't so great when they tried to use carbs & computers...that was an epic cluster....
Actually the automotive computer system was quite the innovation by the auto manufacturers. Great innovation.
-Ken
From a geek point of view car computer systems are pretty impressive. The engine control module was the real innovation. [rant]The rest of it seems like just marketing, but then I DRIVE a vehicle. Don't need GPS, OnSar, digital music, active suspension, parking assist, road hazard warnings, or even anti-lock brakes for that matter. I will take cruise control but originally that was linear, not digital computer.[/rant] Typical for computers the human interface isn't so good. When the idiot light/message comes on you can't tell if it's important or nuisance or one time glitch.
No excuse now for not giving the message in plain English instead of codes or requiring an external reader. Except to pull people into the dealer's shop of course.
... No excuse now for not giving the message in plain English instead of codes or requiring an external reader. Except to pull people into the dealer's shop of course.
B-I-N-G-O, B-I-N-G-O, B-I-N-G-O, and Bingo was his name.
we should probably thank Honda for American cars engines lasting more than 100K miles
You can thank better balancing, better seals & bearings along with hardened valve guides.
American car manufactures were undoubtedly spending millions figuring out what needed to be done to make cars wear out in 100K miles. IIRC it is well documented.
In N.C. light on means inspection failed, no tag. Taxes not paid, means no tag. In most counties emissions test fail, no tag. We don't even get a inspection sticker. If your tag is current, all is well.
we should probably thank Honda for American cars engines lasting more than 100K miles
You can thank better balancing, better seals & bearings along with hardened valve guides.
American car manufactures were undoubtedly spending millions figuring out what needed to be done to make cars wear out in 100K miles. IIRC it is well documented.
Do you mean to tell me with your bare face hanging out that the union workers didn't show at work each morning and chant, "Let's see how good we can build 'em today, guys!"??? Say it ain't so.
I don't get worked up over 'check engine lights'. Much of the time it's an 02 sensor in the exhaust system or some minor issue. You need oil quantity and pressure, and the cooling system in tact. Yes I've heard about the better fuel mileage and other issues, just seldom see any higher priority reasons for the light.
It's almost a boderline scam to get you in the shop too.
One can buy a lot of gasoline for $600, well, before zero anyway. So, if you lose a mile per gallon due to a bad sensor, how many miles would you have to drive to benefit by that $600 expense.
Ain't no way I would read all the crap posted. Most of you are too young or forgot the 10,000 mile tuneups, 10,000 mile tires, 1,500 mile grease jobs and oil changes on vehicles that lasted maybe 50,000 miles. We did a search on our customer work orders last spring. My customers have an average of 162,000 miles on their vehicles. Some places have emission checks and if everything is not in order you will not get an emission sticker and here it keeps you from getting your tags. Do I like it, well I just ordered a $12,000 scanner and I will have to buy software upgrades yearly. A lot of computer parts today require a reprogram of your computer when replaced. You can buy a code reader for very little money, but it only tells you the area of your problem, not exactly what it may need. You think I would spend $12 grand if a $50 tool would fix it, give me a break! Now I live in a non emission county and have a check engine light on my regular driver. It gets 27MPG and gets me to work and back. It is a 2002 and has 202,000 miles on it. In my particular I will not spend $600 on a Cat converter for the reason eyeball mentions above. My 2002 Duramax has 300,000 miles on it and has needed virtually nothing. Front brake pads are original. Mickey is right, if not fixed for whatever reason, what would you do if you have an additional problem if you weren't aware of it. All that being said, regular maintenance items are where a shop pays their bills, not computer related problems.
I am no longer able to fix anything on a car. I can barely add gasoline so when the check engine light came on on my 2006 Mustang ,off to the dealer. Turned out to be pack rat damage. Had it repaired. 2 months later same thing. So far that cost $1200 dollars. Had to drop tranny to make repair as it was on top of it. Put all kind of lights,hung mothballs and Irish spring soap in engine compartment. Found a nearby packrat nest and destroyed it along with some poisen. Fast forward to a new Veloster Turbo. Check engine light. Packrat back. Chewed up O2 sensor so had to replace wire AND sensor. More lights and such. One more time check light and this time he just chewed the wire so cost was lower. Now looks like a lit up Christmas tree everynight. So far so good. He also chewed thru the vacuum lines on my old Dodge. But no other damage. I also have a small strobe light in the engine compartment attached to the battery that runs all the time. I rather hate the little buggers.
I don't get worked up over 'check engine lights'. Much of the time it's an 02 sensor in the exhaust system or some minor issue. You need oil quantity and pressure, and the cooling system in tact. Yes I've heard about the better fuel mileage and other issues, just seldom see any higher priority reasons for the light.
It's almost a boderline scam to get you in the shop too.
One can buy a lot of gasoline for $600, well, before zero anyway. So, if you lose a mile per gallon due to a bad sensor, how many miles would you have to drive to benefit by that $600 expense.
A bad sensor can lead to more problems, namely ruining a cat. A clogged cat can really affect performance or even cause your car to go into the limp home mode to prevent further damage. I don't like owning anything that doesn't work right so I just plug my code reader in and have at it. One way or another they got us by the short hairs.
Actually the automotive computer system was quite the innovation by the auto manufacturers. Great innovation.
-Ken
From a geek point of view car computer systems are pretty impressive. The engine control module was the real innovation. [rant]The rest of it seems like just marketing, but then I DRIVE a vehicle. Don't need GPS, OnSar, digital music, active suspension, parking assist, road hazard warnings, or even anti-lock brakes for that matter. I will take cruise control but originally that was linear, not digital computer.[/rant] Typical for computers the human interface isn't so good. When the idiot light/message comes on you can't tell if it's important or nuisance or one time glitch.
No excuse now for not giving the message in plain English instead of codes or requiring an external reader. Except to pull people into the dealer's shop of course.
Stick a dongle in your OBD2 port and an app on your phone, and you not only get that message in plain English, but a whole bunch of other real-time live stuff while you drive. It can even combine engine info from your car, position info from your GPS, and motion info from your accelerometer to do some pretty interesting things.
Interestingly the Cadillac Allante ('87-'93) would show trouble codes and all the data (real-time live) it was monitoring on a one line (x 24?) LCD. Forgot which MCU they used, 40 pin DIP - think 8051 level. But you did need the shop manual to decipher the trouble codes and for the magic combination of buttons to get into the diagnostic modes. Imagine what an automotive engineer could design in today with something as cheap as rPI and graphics LCD. Fiber Ethernet of course but they say something like CAN is still more efficient as system messages are very short.
But noOOOo. R&D must go please marketing gimmicks.
came on in my 2005 GMC pickup. Great, I thought, another $200 gone. I wish. It was two sensors called 'knock' sensors that notes when the engine starts to do something that used to make the valves rattle and it retards the timing. I could have put a piece of black tape over the light because my mechanic said that it wouldn't hurt to drive it. Problem is, though, if something else goes wrong the light won't warn me.
With a long breath (a sigh to you city folks) I axed him how much would it cost. They are located, of all places, under the intake manifold so everything has to come off. The book gives 3 hours and that's what I was charged for but it really only took 2 hours. Total= $600.54 for everything. That took care of my gun show this weekend but, Lord knows, I have enough guns.
Best part of all? My check engine light is off. You know you're living right when the check engine light not burning is one of the highlights of the day.
Hey, you didn't happen to wash the engine shortly before this happened? I have essentially the same truck,and took it upon myself to wash the engine,which was rather muddy...I should have been more careful,as I was aware of the placement of the knock sensors and their tendency to crap out. Well, I wasn't,and they did. I probably could have let the water evaporate over time and been ok, but I went ahead and pulled the intake,changed the sensors and intake gaskets while I was in there. Hopefully your guy sealed up the plugs well, if he's good he likely did and you shouldn't have further issue's. Its a bit of a crappy design on GM's part,and I've seen some where the sensors are so badly corroded it takes quite a bit of work to get them out.
Three hours is not too unreasonable for the job, I think it took me about 2.5 at home. I prefer to take a bit of extra time and make sure all the mating surfaces for the intake gaskets are very clean and everything is sealed well. Mechanics trying to make time can result in lack of attention to detail and cause more grief down the road. Sounds like you have a good one.
Hey, you didn't happen to wash the engine shortly before this happened? I have essentially the same truck,and took it upon myself to wash the engine,which was rather muddy...I should have been more careful,as I was aware of the placement of the knock sensors and their tendency to crap out. Well, I wasn't,and they did. I probably could have let the water evaporate over time and been ok, but I went ahead and pulled the intake,changed the sensors and intake gaskets while I was in there. Hopefully your guy sealed up the plugs well, if he's good he likely did and you shouldn't have further issue's. Its a bit of a crappy design on GM's part,and I've seen some where the sensors are so badly corroded it takes quite a bit of work to get them out.
Three hours is not too unreasonable for the job, I think it took me about 2.5 at home. I prefer to take a bit of extra time and make sure all the mating surfaces for the intake gaskets are very clean and everything is sealed well. Mechanics trying to make time can result in lack of attention to detail and cause more grief down the road. Sounds like you have a good one.
No, it's been quite some time since I had the truck detailed. He did build two dams around the new knock sensors when he replaced them and you're right, I do have a good and honest mechanic. Strong Christian and I mean a real Christian, not just a mouth Christian. We've been friends for many years. I wouldn't believe he would cheat me if he said he was going to cheat me.
a few years back my car's catalytic converter became clogged.
replaced it with an aftermarket model which also set off the check engine light after about a year.
I ended up getting some "spark plug extender" socket, screwed that into the 02 sensor port, then screwed the 02 sensor in, reset the light and code never came back. Learned that trick from google.
never noticed any performance issues, but then again the car had over 180K miles by then. Performance at that point was defined by getting me from point A to point B without problem.
Interestingly the Cadillac Allante ('87-'93) would show trouble codes and all the data (real-time live) it was monitoring on a one line (x 24?) LCD. Forgot which MCU they used, 40 pin DIP - think 8051 level. But you did need the shop manual to decipher the trouble codes and for the magic combination of buttons to get into the diagnostic modes. Imagine what an automotive engineer could design in today with something as cheap as rPI and graphics LCD. Fiber Ethernet of course but they say something like CAN is still more efficient as system messages are very short.
But noOOOo. R&D must go please marketing gimmicks.
I think that all conversation on the Campfire should be conducted in English.
Interestingly the Cadillac Allante ('87-'93) would show trouble codes and all the data (real-time live) it was monitoring on a one line (x 24?) LCD. Forgot which MCU they used, 40 pin DIP - think 8051 level. But you did need the shop manual to decipher the trouble codes and for the magic combination of buttons to get into the diagnostic modes. Imagine what an automotive engineer could design in today with something as cheap as rPI and graphics LCD. Fiber Ethernet of course but they say something like CAN is still more efficient as system messages are very short.
But noOOOo. R&D must go please marketing gimmicks.
I think that all conversation on the Campfire should be conducted in English.
Basically GM was showing error codes and real time data, voltages, dwell, fuel pressure, etc. way back when the body module computer was on the level of a really good calculator. Now with cheap sophisticated computers like you'd find in a smart phone there are no limits. But marketing drives engineering so the effort is on things that take you away from interacting with the vehicle, right up to press a button and read your Kindle during the trip.
Driving used to be fun in itself and a skill to be proud of.
I've worked with the CAN bus a little as it pertains to heavy equipment, not cars...but the thing that bends my mind about it is that the protocol specifies that you have to insert a supernumerary zero bit in spans of more than five one bits, and a one bit in spans of more than five zero bits...so an octet might well have nine bits in it, one of which should be thrown away by the receiver. Which one? Might depend on the previous octet...which also might be nine bits long.
Not only does that get really annoying to do with standard UARTS, it screws up close timing something horrible.
I understand that it's because you don't have a separate clock line, so you have to extract timing information from the data signal, and you can't get timing information from a signal that doesn't change; but boy is it frickin' inconvenient.
Didn't know that about CAN, never had a use for the protocol. Mostly I2C or my own asynch protocol which is the simplest possible and presently for RS-485 single master (no collision issues ). No limitations on data type and a data length byte up to 0xFF less overhead for easy buffering. Everything so far fits single master, did reserve a control byte if I need more. But shades of bit stuffing in the AX25 synch protocol when ham radio went digital. Would note that Microchip has MCUs with a CAN controller built in, others too I suppose. If it's like their I2C you just service the interrupt.
Well Mickey, I was lucky today and got to go the dealership to get my light (pic of motor) turned off. As I get a little older I forgot to put the gas cap back on when I filled up. So ran some miles saw the gascap warning, stopped and put it on. Few miles later the gas cap warning went away but the motor light came on. Waited 50 miles and still didn't go out. Too many little lights and warnings on newer autos. Whatever you do, don't get old.
Ya know, I was thinking about this 'check engine light' thread...
ya know, as irksome as they are... they sure beat the old 1970s oil light coming on...I use to call it the " your engine will seize in the next 500 yds" light...
You know you're living right when the check engine light not burning is one of the highlights of the day. 
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