Who's going to see it? We're going on Sunday, hope it's worth the money.

I'll wait for Netflix.

I thought at first it was an M-18 Hellcat but I guess not.

The Hellcat was a tank destroyer but because of it's main gun and the fact it was the fastest tracked vehicle in the world and still is many times it was pressed into tank duties.

Sure thing, Dickweed. Still waiting for you to tell us how the MLRS and Stryker are tank destroyers.

Saw it this afternoon. It was a good movie, very dark in tone, but nothing memorable like Saving Private Ryan. Lots of shooting and they're certainly graphic with the mangled bodies and body parts strewn about the countryside, but otherwise you've seen this story before in other war movies. Heck, "Sahara" did it in 1943 (but without all the tracers and body parts).

Only thing that struck me was how stupid the SS battalion was in the big final battle scene. Won't give away any spoilers but if anyone sees it you might agree there are better ways to attack an immobilized tank.

Previews looked good.

It would be pretty damned hard to top Saving Private Ryan, IMO

Fury was a horse.

I thought it was a Plymouth in the movie Christine

Mike

What sort of tank are they in?

I thought it was a Sherman tank.

M4E4 Sherman with the 76mm High Velocity cannon.

When I first saw the title, I was kinda hoping it was going to be based on Marvel Comic's Sgt Fury and the Howling Commandos.

But this still looks good either way.

Just got back. Took my son. Worth the money - easily.

Hard to describe.

If I had to, I'd only use the word "visceral" and call it that.

Thought the same thing but also remembered when this took place - chances are those SS weren't exactly the same battle hardened SS that would have been there in 42 or 43. This taking place about a month before VE.

Was in okc a few years ago and saw a Plymouth Fury somebody had put on a 4wd truck frame. A mean looking rust bucket rat rod. Looked straight out of Mad Max.

Couple of things ya gotta suspend disbelief on, like how a whole column of SS, with vehicles yet, could march ANYWHERE in daylight in the west in April of 1945.

And it may have been SET in April of '45, but it sure wasn't SHOT in April in Germany, a cursory glimpse of the greenery is enough for that, especially where the one guy is hiding in a privet hedge that looks to be already setting fruit.

Nit picks aside though, agreed this is a tremendous movie.

Worth the price of admission just to see the inside operation of a Sherman tank in combat, and ESPECIALLY worth the price of admission to see what happens when Shermans and Tiger collide. One of the more gripping combat scenes I've seen in awhile.

A nice touch too the crew having appropriated a Sturmgewehr 44 or two along the way. This is one of those movies worth buying just to see the equipment and details.

And ya realize how powerful the movie is when the closing credits roll over actual combat footage from that war.

Birdwatcher

"The story of a horse, and a boy who loved him ..."

There's a Sherman Tank in the Museum over at Camp Maybry in Austin that my nephews WWII re-inactment group uses when they stage a mock battle on Veteran's Day. Pretty cool to see it still run!

Just got back from it... was a little disappointed.. but then I am not sure what I was expecting...plenty of blood and guts...

a lot more realistic than a lot of war movies ya see...

thought it was kind of interesting... Brad Pitt is involved in directing this one...

coming out real soon is the one about the LT with the Polish last name that was an Olympic medalist.. and was shot down in a B24 over the Pacific and made a POW in Japan..."Unbroken"

That one is being directed by his wife...

both Brad and Angelina becoming war buffs and conservatives?

Louis Zamperini was of Italian descent.

Looking forward to seeing both movies. "Unbroken" was a heck of a read.

What was the twist rate???


!

Yeah, I know that, don't know why I said he was Polish....
Mental Flatus I guess...

Is over penetration a concern with the high velocity rounds in a 76mm? I think I'd rather have all the energy expended inside the panther.

If they duct tape the end of the muzzle to keep rain out, it will blow up when they fire. Just sayin'.

That gun really didn't do very well against Panthers. Many many more Pzkw Mk IV's around to deal with.

This especially. Even though you know - given where you are in the movie how that scene has to end up - I found myself holding my breath.

Was a lot of fun having my son elbow me and go - he has a Sturmgewehr 44 - cool!

Ya, and a pretty awesome demonstration too earlier in the movie on just how well massed infantry can contrive to stay in the shadow of a supporting tank when advancing under fire across an open field.

Went to see it with my BIL, and before seeing the movie he was unaware how shaped charges in shells and panzerfausts worked against armor plate.

Birdwatcher

Come to think of it, this might THE only movie focusing on armor in combat. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Strangely enough, we might actually owe a debt of some gratitude to Brad Pitt, who reportedly made this movie happen.

I can't think of another movie that focused on what it's like to be armor in combat. I'm sure there must have been some out there in the haydays of WWII flicks. Many movies HAVE armor in combat but none do what Fury did and put you in the tank - that I can think of.

I'm intrigued. Now I wanna see it.



Travis

It's worth the money.

Was also very impressed with how they showed the ricochets and the reality of marksmanship.

Funny! Found a pile of Stg44 parts in a box in back of shop other day. No receiver tho!

Interesting too how some of the commerical reviewers out there belittle the movie for its depiction of the SS in the last days of the war hanging German civilians and whatnot, claiming gross exaggeration. Heck, there were Polezei and SS fanatics doing EXACTLY that, to German soldiers and civilians alike.

OTOH, it was very fortunate for the fictional tank crew of "Fury" that the very last Jerries they run into in the movie were apparently from a little-known SS "Retard" division

A pity, since the earlier combats were so well done.

I'm sorta reminded of the mess they made of the movie "Lone Survivor".

IMHO both "Blackhawk Down" and "Saving Private Ryan" have set the standard for realistic depiction of combat thus far, or so says I who has never actually SEEN combat....

I will say though that the unexpected act of mercy at the end of Fury was a nice touch

Birdwatcher

That was really my only complaint about the whole movie.

I could nit pick the Germans' choice of defensive positions in the AT gun ambush where the tanks attack across the open field but that would be a small nit.

But the final battle was for plot only. A single stalled tank, buttoned up, no infantry support, both cover and concealment in close proximity and apparently nightfall was about 5 minutes away - that's as blind as a tank can be.

I would have detailed two squads to destroy it, maybe only one. Either wait for full darkness or just lob a few mortar rounds of smoke around the tank to hide your movement, flank it, put a couple of panzerfausts in the side then continue to march. The way they attacked it was...well, I hate spoilers so I won't say.

But overall the depiction of the men was good - their complete immersion in cold hearted, mechanical killing.

It's definitely worth the price of admission, I'm thinking of going back on "cheap Tuesday" night to see it again.

I was telling the wife on the way home.... that was the attitudes that this nation needs, to effectively deal with these ISIS clowns and Islamic Radicals in modern times.....who are no where even close to the toughness of Nazi Troops...

and quit this policy of not wanting to upset Liberals and other candyassses from around the First World Nations...

Did you fellers know Brad Pitt bought a T-54 Russian tank in Hungary, and had it shipped to his&Angelina's estate in socal.

With all the military restoration buffs here in USA, he could have bought American made for what that cost him, me thinks.

Brad Pitt don't need two stinking threads...

Just got back, great flick IMO.
Those men who fought that conflict were some dedicated and tough individuals. Truly the greatest generation.

I haven't been to see a movie at the theater in some time. I reckon I'll have to go and see this one.

Indeed, but I dunno that there were ANY Sherman crews that went in in North Africa and then to Europe who were still alive in April of '45.

As far as a tank movie, there was one a few years ago. The title had the word Beast in it. It was about Russians in Afghanistan.

The death rate of WWII tankers was absolutely horrid. German tanks were far heavier armored and packed much more powerful main guns. German anti-tank guns and Panzerfaust were for killing RUSSIAN tanks which were also far better than ours. American tankers won battles by blood,balls and numbers.

The last scene was a bit overdone, but at that time in the war it was more likely to have been a few SS officers and mostly conscripted soldiers with little to no training and even less desire to fight.

Sounds like it was worth the coin to see, unfortunately I was too sick to go see it. Will probably go next weekend and check it out.

The Beast.

My son is an armor-qualified officer. It's one of his favorite movies.

Paul

A bit of linguistic trivia. In one movie there was a shot of the control panel of a Russian tank with a button marked CTAPT. Doesn't mean anything unless you know that the English equivalent to the Cyrillic letters is START.

Sometimes a bit of linguistic literacy can be useful.

Paul

A few years ago, I read a memoir by a former battlefield recovery officer for a tank outfit. Immediately after the cessation of hostilities, he went looking for the biggest, baddest, heaviest armored Tiger tank he could find. He located one that had been shot in the ass by American shell fire, and he dug a panzerfaust out of his jeep. (He'd traded for it with some infantry guy.)

He judged the heaviest armor plate to be at the very front so he stood off and fired the panzerfaust face-on at the Tiger. Just for S&G.

He said it easily cut a hole all the way through would have burned out the interior if it hadn't already burned. Better than anything he'd ever seen or imagined before.

He also had an indoor shooting range built for his wife.



Travis

I think they both carry, and I'm pretty sure that both could get carry permits for California and New York City if they don't have them already.

It's actually fairly cheap to buy an old Soviet tank in Europe - like $50 grand. I would imagine the transportation cost would be a bit spendy.

A quick Google search shows a T54 with non-operational gun for sale in California for $85 grand, and a couple Shermans located in the US for $310,000 and $495,000. Also a Sherman for $275,000 with free delivery anywhere in the lower 48.

If I had the dough, one of those would be a much more fun toy than any stupid Ferrari.

That must above been a feeling of hopelessness when those 76 mm rounds from the Sherman's main gun would bounce off the Germans armor.

To bad it wasn't the AI version with TSX 's. Lol

diesel vs. gasoline...

James Gardner had a lot fun on screen with his own personal Sherman in �Tank� 1984...

yeah the russian stuff is cheap compared to the US cause everyone wants the US stuff....not that Pitt couldnt affors the American stuff....hell im fascinated by the German armor far more than the American....its his money what the hell, ild love to have a russian tank to just cause

I know I have read they are prepared if somebody comes into their house. Not sure if they carry concealed or not though.

I have read more than once they consider themselves (surprisingly) pro-gun.



Travis

Hard to tell from the clip but does Brad Pitt pick up an StG 44 somewhere?

That's his main personal weapon, an STG44. He also carries a S&W 1917 in a tanker holster. At least I'm pretty sure it's a Smith, could be a Colt but I don't recall getting a good enough look at the cylinder latch or ejector rod to tell.

Of course, when he's using it there is some other stuff going on on-screen so your attention is generally directed elsewhere...

I'm going to see it tomorrow. I could give a fugg about the story. I just want to ID guns and tanks.

And hopefully that Laboufoon actor gets blown up.



Travis

Yep, it's a Smith. I got a good look at the cylinder latch when it was on the table.

Interesting grips as well.

Good eye - it's definitely a Smith. Found this pic online - in the movie it was moving around so much it was hard to tell.

For those who haven't seen the flick, here he's giving their new recruit some basic lessons in handgun marksmanship...



Grips are interesting indeed. It's a picture of a nude model with clear plastic over it. From what I can see it's not a picture of Angelina Jolie.



The link brings up a large version of the pic to see it better - then you can click on that picture to enlarge it even further.

http://www.showfilmfirst.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/DF-00226.jpg

One thing that didn't make sense to me - for Pitt to have fought the Germans from Africa to the last weeks of the war in a tank and to do it with his crew - seems like with the attrition in armor and that time line - he'd be better n E6. But I don't know the exacts of war time promotion or the rank structure of the Army in the ETO at the time.

My Grandfather fought the Germans in 6 different countries, starting in N Africa and ending up in Austria at the end of the war. He was an E-1 in England before going to Africa and an E-5 at the end of the war. Some people certainly gained rank fast but I think the most were lost in the shuffle and didn't get promoted very fast at all.

Read Deathtraps.

At end of war the Third Armored Division totaled up its losses in ETO. Destroyed tanks(not repairable) totaled over 500% of its usual 262 tank inventory.

Fort Knox had shut down its tank training program in 1943 felling there were enough crews to last the war. By March '45 they were putting raw infantry recruits as tanks crew and commanders.

Probably basing it on what I was seeing in the Army between 2002 and 2006 - seemed like the E4 you went to language school was E6 a year later. Wasn't exactly but some sure seemed to get promoted fast compared to those of us in the Navy and we were promoted fast compared to the AF.

He might have been like a few career NCO's I knew where they'd get E6 or E7, then get really drunk and disorderly and be busted back a few ranks, then work their way back up. Wardaddy seems like the kind of guy who probably popped a few of those 90 day wonder butterbars in the chops.

Was poking around the net and found that the Tiger tank in this movie is a real Tiger captured during WWII, and is apparently the only running Tiger tank still around.

[video:youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mV7TRLpCM48[/video]


The film crew related a spooky story. They said when they got the Tiger on set and brought the Shermans out for the big scene, the Tiger started up by itself and its gun started tracking one of the Shermans. One cameraman swore he could hear voices singing the Panzerlied faintly, like they were way off in the distance...

one of the cooler series ive seen...

diesel vs. gasoline...Sherman tanks... �Ronsons� cigarette lighters �Lights up the first time, every time!�

major difference between us and the Germans was how we went about manufacturing....Germans had better designs but they were being built closer to custom vehicle, lots of hand fitting....they were made like guys like Porsche who were used to making small production runs....we had designs that were nowhere near as good but we handed over manufacturing to the guys that made thousands and thousands of the same thing over and over again so in the end between the fact we had more and the Germans did not have access to quality fuel they got screwed.....more Tigers and Me 262s were parked do to lack of good quality fuel than we ever took out in fights.....

Plus, the German engineer hasn't been born who could look at a mechanical design and not say, "I can make that same process work by using three times as many parts!"

that too, especially when it came to the suspension....the Tiger's and Panther's suspension systems were a nightmare to repare in the field....the American stuff,if not blown to hell to bad, was alot easier to fix

I am going to see this movie. I can't wait for Netflix.

This is long, so digest at your leisure pace. My writing is sometimes a labor to read.

I am sharing this here because I can't think of a better place to do so, and also because I'm trying to create some historical narrative for my family. I am the oldest, so have the greater first-hand knowledge of my Dad's conversations and feel more responsibility to make sure this is not forgotten.

My Pop recently passed December 2012 at the young age of 86. He was in a Sherman with Patton's 10th Armored Division. Or, as he and his buddies would joke at reunions "Patton was with us".

I'm no military historian expert by any measure, so if I make any mistakes along the path of historical accuracy, feel free to correct them. I would appreciate it.

Dad didn't talk much about his wartime experience. So, anything I post here is a compilation of what I picked up from listening to him over a period of 50 years, mostly coming in the last 2-10 prior to his passing. So here goes:

He lied about his age to enlist in the Army because his Southern brood were of the stock it was their divine duty, and got into the tank corps. We're talking about Kentuck'ie, Tennessee, southern Illinois. Go there now and tell me it's any different.

He first stepped foot on French soil and got moved up to the front quickly. Somewhere after this time he or his buddies created one of their funny phrases.. "I'd rather face a German with a gun than have a Frenchman behind me with a knife". I don't know origin or history of that remark, but I've seen his buddies quietly nod their head in agreement when any of them uttered that phrase. I have no axe to grind in this matter.

As his unit was moving through France, in 1944, they were called upon to move quickly into an area around Bastogne, Belgium, in the Belgian part of the Ardennes forest. Everybody knows that story, so I'll leave that part to the experts, much more skilled in the history and story telling of it than I.

After the Bulge, Germany was falling apart and every grunt knew it. It was just a matter of time. Allied Air was kicking the crap out of them, and they had the likes of the entire Allied Army on their tails.

I believe situations after Bastogne affected my Pop more than anything else prior. Dad came to be best friends with his first tank commander, a Lt. and a true southern gentleman like my Dad. He was KIA by a sniper while doing recon out of the tank over a hilltop after they got into Germany. Pop was wounded first time soon after.

Dad was placed back in action a couple weeks later. This is around the time they went to an area called Dachau. "Daa-Kaa" , as Pop pronounced it in his humorous and limited knowledge of European linguistics. He said he and the guys passed out food, but were soon given the cease and desist because the prisoners could not handle the food. Many prisoners asked for guns to hunt down the Nazis who had fled into the forest, but Dad and his guys were again told no can do. Long story short, they couldn't stay long and had to head out. Pop told me later from what he read, many of the prisoners were already so far gone, he finally somewhat understood this order.

During this period in Germany, Pop shot down an ME109 that was strafing his column and, for that, was given the Bronze Star. Dad grew up in the 20's and 30's and was totally enamored by airplanes and the thoughts and dreams of flight. Heck, I've had them, too. Flying like an Eagle, banking and turning, effortlessly. We've all had them. Well, he was a fanatic about planes and flight as a teenager before entering the war. He collected flash cards of all the planes from all over the world throughout the 30's and was full aware of the structure, profile, and silhouette of planes from that period. I am proud to also have these flash cards and accompanying scrapbook in my possession. I believe that knowledge distinctly enabled him to identify the enemy plane and shoot it down before it could cause further harm to his group.

For many years, my family had the Swastika my Dad cut from the tail of the ME109 he shot down in our garage. That, along with an SS dagger, SS helmet were stolen by in-laws. My brother managed to get the original Swastika marked P38 out of the house before that happened, and Pop was able to personally give me back the guns I had bought for him. He never owned many guns during his life, that I saw. I think when I Christmas gifted him the .45, 9mm, and M1 carbine, that was the most he ever personally owned, including his .22 LR and shotguns.

The second time he got hit, his tank caught a Panzerfaust at point blank range, aided by a village woman in Ohringen, Germany pretending to sweep up debris, scouting for the shooter. Everyone in the tank except my Pop was KIA. (correction: after finding my 11 year old notes on a backup drive from my last computer; Dad and 1 other crewman managed to escape, wounded). Dad got blown out of the turret, multiple shrapnel wounds, and destroying his right ear drum for the rest of his life.

This marked the end of his action at the point of attack.

I have all Pop's medals, citations, unit citations, patches, and flag from full military honors burial. These include a Bronze Star for shooting down the ME109 and 2 Purple Hearts. I think he may have weighed in at 160-170 tops, soaking wet when he went in. He was long and dangly like me in my younger days, just a couple inches shorter.

This is the story of a real hero, as I knew him. He was my Pop. Was he a tough SOB? Yes. Was he a hardass? Yes.

We were coming back up from the north side of the lake one time. Beautiful day, bright sun-shiny. We come up on this pickup where this guy was putting a good hurtin' on his GF/wife. First thing out of the box, this guy tells my Dad to mind his own business or he's going to kill him. I remember my Dad first saying "OK", and then telling me to get back in the truck and stay there. I was about 15-16. Then, the guy threw the lady into the truck again and starting beating the hell out of her. Dad went back to the truck and beat his ass in the truck, mind you. Cleaned the guy's clock.. with the woman asking why he was hurting her man. Pop then came back to our truck and said it was time to go home.

I have many pics I would share of his from France, Germany, Bavaria. He REALLY liked the Garmisch- Partinkichern area. I'm just not too adept at posting them here, but if somebody wants to help, we can get them up. These include modern photos of the exact spot his tank took the panzerfaust round and the doorway where it was fired.

Don't want to bore you all with the narrative, but I felt I had to pass this real history forward, as well as my family's legacy in print. I have many pictures that I would gladly share. I just struggle on the Fire with posting pics, for some reason.

if you want to email them to [email protected] ill host them on my photobucket and get them up

forgot to add, hell of a story........hell of a story

This sounds similar to my dad's history of service. He served in the infantry under Patton. Saw lots of combat. Started in Africa and ended up near the German border at war's end. Wounded twice in combat, survived a tank charge at Kasserine Pass, the only member of his squad to survive. Dad finished as a 1st Sergeant. He might have made it higher, but dad was no angel, and got in trouble more than a couple times. There was a jeep that got rolled over in Africa while chasing some critters around trying to shoot dinner, some confiscated German automatic weapons in Italy that were used to target some communication wires-only problem was they were Allied lines, not Axis. And then there was the little episode of fishing trout streams in France with hand grenades. Problem was there was Brass nearby that didn't appreciate their morning being interrupted by what could have been actual combat.......... Dad was no choir boy, but he did his job, as so many did. If given the chance, knowing my old man, I don't think he'd have behaved any differently. That's just what guys did to blow off steam.

This is long, so digest at your leisure pace. My writing is sometimes a labor to read.


Your writing is just fine.

I've come across a handful of stories of how infantrymen would have custom handgun grips made in-theater with plexiglas from crashed bombers. One story had it that a French civilian made them.

Found some when I Googled this: wwii plexiglas handgun grips

I had a great uncle who went across Europe with Patton's tank corps. Uncle Virgil had flat feet and expected a deferment, but Uncle Sam had other ideas. He was put in a tank where he didn't have to walk. He died before I was old enough to remember him and the only stories I have heard were those later related by my grandfather.

My gramps fought with the Cdn. Engineers, but I don't have any details. I asked him once about the war when I was a kid, and my dad had to pull me aside and tell me not to ask him that again.

Best line of the movie: "Don't get your panties in a knot. We still have hand weapons and a .50"

German tank crews referred to the Sherman as "Tommy Cookers"...and not because of the goofy little stove the English carried with them.

Found this on the 'net....

http://www.warhistoryonline.com/articles/15036.html

There are many stories of tank men watching dumbfound as their shells bounced off the Tiger. One of the more famous stories is from the commander of a British Churchill tank who had an encounter with Tiger 131(the only running tiger tank in the world .it can be seen at Bovington tank museum UK) the story goes�.� We had not only heard a lot about the Tiger but had also seen its effect on the Churchill tanks. When we arrived at the railhead we saw the hulls of our tanks stacked up with massive holes punched through their armour, even at the thickest parts! As we advanced towards our objective we could see no sign of the enemy, but suddenly my fellow tank erupted in an enormous explosion. Blowing the crew from the turret and setting the tank on fire. Before I had time to locate the enemy tank my own Churchill was hit by an 88 shell from the Tiger which passed through the front of our tank and all the way through to the engine at the back setting it on fire. We managed to bail out with minor injuries, not like our poor friends in the other tank. Tiger 131 that had been firing at us was hit by another one of our tanks and the shell got stuck under its gun which stopped the gun from turning and the Germans abandoned their tank. The British had captured a Tiger.�

I'd give about anything to ride/drive a tank. WWII armoured vehicles have always interested me.

Built many a model as a lad and a few as an adult.

Adventures - Tank Town USA
www.tanktownusa.com/adventures.php
Tank Driving Ages 15+$75.00/10 mins
Feel the Power! Tank Driving has never been more affordable! For $75.00 you will get personalized instruction on vehicle operation and then 10 minutes or 1/2 a mile of driving (whichever comes first!) at the controls thundering around our course. We have plenty of bumps, dips and humps to keep it fun the whole way through! Want a little longer behind the controls? You can extend your adventure for as long as you want with each additional 10 minutes of driving costing just $65.00! Have a group of 5 or more driving participants?

More...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_131

On 21 April 1943, the tank was knocked out and captured on a hill called Djebel Djaffa during the preliminary phases of the Battle of Longstop Hill which opened the way to the capture of Tunis. During the battle, Tiger 131 was hit by three shots from 6-pounders from British Churchill tanks of A Squadron, 4 Troop of the 48th Royal Tank Regiment.

A solid shot hit the Tiger's gun barrel and ricocheted into its turret ring, jamming its traverse, wounding the driver and front gunner and destroying the radio. A second shot hit the turret lifting lug, disabling the gun's elevation device. A third shot hit the loader's hatch, deflecting fragments into the turret.

The German crew bailed out, taking their wounded with them and leaving the knocked-out but still driveable and largely intact tank behind.Their identity and fate are unknown. The tank was secured by the British as they captured Djebel Djaffa hill. Tiger 131 was the first intact Tiger tank captured by British or American forces.

Tigers in North Africa. Who knew?

And fine marksmanship by them Tankers

Holy awesome.

Did you see this part?

CAR CRUSHING AGES 15+$499.00

Why just drive a tank when you can crush a car with one? Get your heart pumping with 20 minutes of driving excitement and top it off by smashing a car. Nothing is more thrilling than hearing the hood crumple and the glass shatter as you flatten a car with 17 tons of military steel. Don't just stop with one pass though. We will make sure you hit the car from every angle to ensure that nothing is left untouched. A once in a lifetime experience!

This would make an awesome birthday or christmas present.

Thanks, rattler! I'm going to send you some asap.

My nephew got to take ride in the last flying B-29 this weekend on a deal put on by the Confederate Airforce Event in Waco, TX. I think it cost him around $500 bucks. He got to set in one of the gun turrets and said it was worth every penny. I'm envious!

For my dad's 60th birthday we bought him an hour ride on the B-17 Flying Fortress Fuddy Duddy ...he was in heaven and to this day he says it was the best gift he ever received

CHL, That is awesome! I would definitely be down for that!
When I lived in St Pete, FL, the Confederate Air Force visit was one of the neatest events of the downtown area. They'd fly into Albert Whitted airport and put on a great show. The airport is right on the waters of Tampa Bay. Saw a lot of awesome planes at this show in years past, including A10's doing mock mock gun run maneuvers. I would not want to be on the wrong end of one of these.

Am I wrong, or was the Confederate Air Force forced to rename itself to a more politically correct Commemorative Air Force? I can't find any current information about the Confederate Air Force. (Ahhh, Yes. Never mind. I just answered my own question). If so, why don't we all just pull all our teeth and start sifting plankton.

Call me crazy, but are we now relegated to remembering only one bully group's version of history at this point in our country's storied evolution? I just don't get it.

dvdegeorge, what a great gift! I bet your Dad was floating on air when he got off the plane!

Yep. They changed their name. More PC BS! They are a Texas based org. They have a great Museum out in Midland, TX! Also the only place in the USA where you can visit the home of two US Presidents and two State Governors all at one house / Museum!

Thanks, bowsinger. I'm really trying hard to keep my opinions to myself and just tell the story.

gophergunner, you and I both know tough doesn't begin to describe these guys.

Dad got one of his fingers severed out in the sticks working on a big Caterpillar once. He managed to get the hydraulic cylinder open enough to recover his finger, and put it on ice in the truck. The doctors were Houdini's and got it back on.

He worked on heavy equipment when I was growing up. All sizes of Caterpillar's, Deuce and a half's, buses, trucks, you name it. He restored classic cars as a hobby. His last one was a fire engine red '57 Chevy Bel-Air, complete with fender skirts.

I used to go to "work" with him when I got the chance. I got paid, but I didn't do much work, really. He did the work, and I was just his gopher and toolman. But, it got us out into the wide open spaces together.

I rode through Detroit during the riots with him and his buddy "Snuffy" one time, delivering a couple trucks up that way. His advice, as usual, was "Don't get out of the truck".

If you haven't seen the movie don't read this:

I'd call it a rental. The battle scenes were excellent. But the movie dragged way too much. Piles and piles of unnecessary drama and they spent way too much time trying to demonstrate how cold and disorderly the soldiers could be. To the point that I didn't give a fugg when they were killed. Matter of fact, I was glad to see some of them go.

And the part that really left me not liking the movie is that they seemed to go out of their way to demonstrate how murderous the conquerors were, and ended the movie with a compassionate nazi letting one of ours live to see another day.

That schit really pissed me off.

Last but certainly not least... I can appreciate writers taking some liberties in movie making for the sake of making a climatic movie. But the ending of that film bordered on the absurd. I understand they were supposedly facing unseasoned troops, but gimme a fuggin' break. That standoff wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes. That is, if they didn't simply avoid the confrontation altogether.

I give it 2.5 out of 5.



Travis

hopefully i do this right for local_dirt...sorry for any odd spacing im copying directly from my email





27 - View of the path taken by the tank. Here you can see the

recessed house, (now a store) hiding the panzerfaust shooter. The sniper was in the three story building top right window for better observation of any escape attempt from the tank ambush. Dad (Smitty), blown up, no hearing, ran back up this street, with the sniper firing at him. Thankfully, Germany's worst sniper was shooting at Dad. (Naah, Just God looking after Smitty). The current white line (traffic control) marks the site of the tank's destruction. Note the German woman---

Same as 13 April, 1945 except that one was sweeping the steps a few feet closer to the camera.



View from the tank's approach to the ambush site before being hit.

Smitty at the site of the German woman who jumped inside the house and

the panzerfaust gunner fired on the tank. Note in the picture, the steps from the building up the street from the shooting would have required the tank to swerve to the left just before being hit, this would have gotten the tank a few feet farther away from the shooter and less likely to self injury to the shooter.



Current road signs at the site of the tank being hit... The tank

was coming down Hirschgasse Deer Lane, or Deer
Path



Smitty standing in the tank's route as it came down the hill

toward Dad�s ambush site. From this view, from the tank commander, you cannot see the recessed building from which the anti-tank shooter emerged. The German woman sweeping the sidewalk would have come into view as the tank went down this narrow street. Note that the street is so narrow, the tank cannot swing around its main gun.



Smitty at site of tank being hit. Good view of the Sniper Building

and the recession of the Nazi tank killer.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/alb...%20photos/MVC-031S_zps7ceb66a5.jpg[/img]

View of where the tank would have been coming down the street.


White line (traffic warning) is the location of where the tank was hit. By

this photo the tank came from the left (end of the street) and turned

right down the street in the vicinity of where the car is in the picture

up the street to the left side of the street.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/alb...%20photos/MVC-032S_zpse7b7ed38.jpg[/img]

Closeup view of the cobblestones at the location of the steps from

which the street sweeper and the shooter operated. At that time (1945)

this building
was a private residence. Now, it is a store. You can
see

the different stones, now versus then. The steps would have come directly into the street. You can see where they would have been before


renovation at some later date.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/alb...%20photos/MVC-033S_zps4d53e376.jpg[/img]

bump for the evening crowd since i added local_dirts pics to go with his story

Thanks for the efforts rattler, good stuff!

This photo captures the young, cocky but tired and gaunt look of so many soldiers tangled in that endeavor.

http://www.armyjeeps.net/armor1.htm

http://www.milweb.net/classifieds.php?type=1

https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motor...rs-tanks-for-the-memories-135659950.html

local dirt,

Really cool pics and story.




Travis

Not realizing there were two threads I posted on the first, the "Fury" thread. Anyway, I thought it was a very good movie; as they say, on several levels.

Thanks, Travis. Appreciate it.

We often forget how very young these men were, thanks to Hollywood, which tends to cast actors who are 10-30 years older.

Phenomal pics, thanks

Seen the movie again this weekend, its good enough to do that and good enough to bring the thread back for a bit.

Second time around the final shootout against elements of the SS "Dummkopf" division ain't quite so absurd, least ways not as far as them opening up on the approaching German column in the open w/machine guns, then the first two cannon shells taking out the vehicles, next two white phosphorus into the house.

And for those as clueless about the specifics of tanks as I was, a pretty good reference site...

www.tanks-encyclopedia.com

I believe there was more to the incident than that. IIRC Churchill had made it one of our highest priorities to capture a Tiger, and a team was put together and sent North Africa with the express purpose of capturing one..

Once the Tank was in British hands, Chirchill went out to North Africa to inspect it personally and to say thanks to those involved.

I did buy a paperpack book written by the British Major who was in change of the operation, although I never got around to reading more than the dust cover..Will have to see if i can find it..

Getting back to the film, Bovington also provided the Pitts Sherman as well as the Tiger...

Interesting to see a Sherman, that is not restored and not in very good shape... frontal "armor" on the one I saw up in Canada at a Canadian Legion, had metal over concrete in the front for armor...

They made those things with all sorts of engine combinations...

from a Chrysler "motor" that consisted of five 6 cylinder Chrysler motors, side by side, and hooked into one transmission..

They also made them with Diesel engines in them, but since the Army wanted everything running on 'one fuel' and picked gasoline, the Diesel Shermans were still made and just given to the Russians...

They were also made with Air Cooled Radial Aircraft engines, designs that were superceded by bigger and more powerful engines before the war started... but they worked fine for a tank..

for Sherman's, the focus was on shear numbers, not high quality....the high attrition was an acceptable fact by military planners....

recently getting Bill O'Reilly's book "Killing Patton", I remember a comment made by his driver, that replaced his war time driver, when it was all over...He commented about being shocked of all the Sherman tanks 'littering' the roads of Germany 'all over' in 1945....

always seems history portrays Germany was pretty much beaten by January 1945.. but in reality, a lot of Americans lost their lives in Germany between January and the end of April 1945...

PS: those pics and that story by Local Dirt, was fantastic..
thanks for posting them...

[u][/u]

Coulda been a nice touch in the movie if they would have alluded to the appalling loss rate of Shermans and their crew with a brief statement rolled over the closing scene, especially as they used actual WWII combat footage so effectively as the credits rolled at the end.

Birdwatcher

Things might have been different for you guys had the US adopted the Sherman Firefly with its 17lb...It was offered by the British in late 1943, but it was over a year before the US started using it, and even then it was only in small numbers..

Last event I had my jeep at. We had the Commo. Mine IsThe rear left. Neal you may recognize photo. It's at Camp Mabry for the Texas Military muster. Back in 2011. Love the way the ground shook! All of these Sherman's are privately owned withthe the exception of the museums Sherman.

Far right of frame you can just make out US half track.

Kaywoodie, thanks for the pic. Dad liked those Jeeps. He thought they were pretty much indestructible, with the right guy behind the wrench when they needed wrenching.

From what I saw in my life, he was that guy.

Pitt's tank "Fury" ia a Sherman M4E8 "Easy 8"with the 76 mm gun.
With HVAP ammo it was more than capable of taking out any German tank up to Tiger MKVI. Like in the movie.

Testing of the time showed the 17 lber was slightly better but the APCR they used had atrocious accuracy.

The German guns had a bit more pen range tho and they would try to stand off at the limit of range allied tanks could pen them.
The German Panther and Tiger were rushed into service and were not properly developed at the time they first were put into service. Nor were they ever around in significant numbers.
Panthers were extremely prone to breakdowns.
Lucky for the Allies!

The Sherman was actually a very fine combat tank, tho the early versions were optimized more for infantry support.
They had a decent 75mm gun.
When the first info came out about improved German tanks they put the 76mm into it.

Pretty well all armor forces of WWII experienced severe casualties. Most tank casualties came from anti tank guns more so than tank vs tank.
The difference for the Allies was that they out produced the Germans in tanks by a huge margin.

The Germans initially had very fine tank crews well trained and motivated. They made the difference for their side. Many late war Tiger crews had very large kill totals.

I saw the movie tonite and took it for what it is. I enjoyed it and would recommend it.

Bit of a Tank history buff here ...LOL.

I seem to recall the original 75mm had a better HE round which was considered very good for general purpose Infantry support which was why there was some reluctance to change.
Eventually, as the armour on German tanks improved, one of the senior American officers in Europe (Patton?)is supposed to have said: "Don't send me any more Shermans with the 75mm�..

As noted towed anti tank guns and tank destroyers played a far bigger ant-iarmour role than tends to be appreciated today..

Your welcome. This was the big show battle for about 2000 spectators. Just over the crest in front of tanks were axis infantry, the museums Hetzer, several half tracks, and a 2cm AA gun. Lot of noise for the folks!

Believe it or not have lots of young kids asking us very intelligent questions!!! Then again, most there have parents serving!

I seem to recall the original 75mm had a better HE round which was considered very good for general purpose Infantry support which was why there was some reluctance to change.
Eventually, as the armour on German tanks improved, one of the senior American officers in Europe (Patton?)is supposed to have said: "Don't send me any more Shermans with the 75mm�..

As noted towed anti tank guns and tank destroyers played a far bigger ant-iarmour role than tends to be appreciated today..

Pete

Exactly right Pete... it was a infantry support tank with anything anti tank wise a distant after thot. So the M3 75mm was it for its HE round. Early in the war it was enuf gun for the job but after D day not so much.

The 76mm gun was pretty fair with the HIVAP rounds the 17lber was better with just straight ap rounds.

Your generals quote was from Ike.

Doctrine was to let the Tank destroyers handle anti tank work as much as possible.

Sure do, Bob. I've been on that "battlefield" on Camp Mabry several times! Those guys sure know how to put on a good show! I'll be back up there pretty soon to watch my nephew on their next re-enactment!

That would be very cool to see and experience.

So am I to understand that the tank Pitt and his crew were in, was the Firefly ( with the 17 pounder cannon), that the Brits used? or was the American version 76mm available in WW2? I thought that was a development post war and saw first time combat use in Korea...

not much of a Tank Scholar, but via this thread and the movie, I've been reading on Wikipedia a fair amount this week... was going to stop into Barnes and Nobles this weekend and see if I can locate a tech book on them...

I believe its American, the so called "Easy Eight" model with the the 76mm High Velocity gun...I think the 17lb had a longer barrel...

Me too. From that Tanks-Encyclopedia web site I've become interested in this; the 1918 Mark A Whippet and the first hints of Blitzkrieg. Maybe the Krauts learned first because they were on the receiving end.

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww1/gb/British_medium_Mark-A_whippet.php



Some units penetrated deep behind German lines, creating havoc. This was confirmed even more during the April 1918 Amiens offensive. One remains famous above all. The "Musical box", cut off its own unit, but roamed at will for nine hours behind the German lines, wiping out an entire camp battalion, a motorized column, destroying machine-gun nests and an artillery battery and even an observation balloon, before finally being silenced by direct gunfire. Many other performed some staggering exploits, and Whippet crews were among the most decorated of WWI.

Had never heard of this machine before this, interesting how we forget that these World Wars were still very much "on" right up until the end, no matter what hindsight tells us. There's a pretty good youtube attached to that page too.

Birdwatcher

Yep Pete got it right its the 76mm gun, M4 Easey 8.

A few 17 lbers Shermans were trailed at Aberdeen IIRC but the decision was made to stick with the 76mm.

US Army Ord. screwed up in their testing making the assumption that German armor plate was essentially the same as US had in the Sherman.

Not so much...the German plate was tougher and the the 76mm had a lot less success against it in theater than Ike was briefed they should have.
Needless to say Ike was pissed!

Huntsman and Pete, you are spot on with those statements. For example, as Dad spoke of and I mentioned prior, he and his group found out pretty quick about the armor disparity.

So, when they would come across chunks they could cut off something else and weld to the fronts of their tanks, they were all about that.

One thing the guys in the unit would sometimes have to do when fighting superior, but outnumbered German armor inside towns and villages was to run straight through a line of buildings to get a better angle or surprise advantage on the enemy.

They didn't like that much, and felt like the locals were suffering the loss of even more homes and businesses after the artillery shellacking that precluded their entry into town.

Unfortunately, this was some very dirty business they were taking care of.

local dirt

Yes there was a lot of that going around, crew added extra field armor.
Some really ingenious ones too.
I recall hearing bout one crew that got a flat plate welded on. It was like a 3 or 4" pocket across the glacis. They then poured it full of concrete! LOL

I think that one was a fail.

But extra steel or etc. if it was not actual armor plate would have little effect except maybe as a morale booster.
A AP round would hardly notice it.
But that certainly did not deter the crews.

Running/fighting tanks in enemy held towns or cities is really dangerous work alright!
Especially with little or no accompanying infantry.

Hats off to those men like your Dad they got dealt some tough hands but carried them out to the best of their abilities and got the job done.

Just saw it with my son, good flick with a very few goofs. We enjoyed it, well worth seeing and I may even buy the dvd when it comes out.

Saw it tonight too. Thought it was pretty, but I saw a bunch of different small armored vehicles that I couldn't identify and immediately wanted to Google them.

I kept wondering what the purpose of the logs tied to the side of the tank served? All in all a pretty good show, and now I have to go find out what all those vehicles were.

The logs were added in the field as makeshift armor. I saw a couple M8 Greyhounds in the movie. The father of a good friend of mine drove Greyhounds in Germany in WWII.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M8_Greyhound

Not seen the movie yet, so this is just a stab in the dark, but many tanks carried bundles of logs to help crossing ditches and similar obsticles..IIRC the correct term was a "fascine"??

Lots of pics of WWI tanks with fascines. WWII tanks, for the most part didn't require them altough some halftracks did. Our halftracks had the "unditching roller" instead. I do know of some tanks that carry a log so as to increase main gun depression. T-34.54,55 and 62 come to mind. Logs as supplementary armor is hilariously funny.

Anybody know how the co axial .30 was fired on the M4?. Gunner I assume was in control, and I'm also assuming it was fired remotely through the same sight as the main gun? All these assumptions are based on my experience in LAV's some 5 decades after WWII so maybe things were different back then.

Coax has its own "on" switch. Same trigger as main gun. Sights same.

Maybe or maybe not..

WW2 crews did improvise all sorts of "armour", perhaps out of desperation more than anything, but consider what they were facing..

Because of the "arms race" between tanks and anti armour weapons, many of the weapons a Sherman might face would have limited effectiveness unless it was fired at relatively close range and at an optimal angle.

APDS was not really used until later in the war, and most anti armour shells were simple HE, HEAT (shaped charge) or APCBC. All these could have their effectiveness reduced if they were detonated away from the main armour.

I wonder if some of the improvised armour had this effect ie acting as spaced armour like modern day bar armour or RPG netting?

I am not suggest it would protect against the very latest APDS from the German 75mm and 88mm AT guns, but it might move the odds to a more favourable place against weapons like the Panzerfaust or the Pak38??

Thanks, exactly how it is 60 years later......

Yep they had some Greyhounds in the movie, wheeled scout AFV. 37mm gun, M2 50 cal and a 30 cal.

Ah yes the logs...useless against all German weapons except magnetic mines.
In fact the small extra stand off distance improved the shape charge effect on Panzerfaust and Panzershreck (German 88mm Bazooka).
But l'm guessing the crews never knew that then.

Most often used as traction in mud or could jack the tank up or down somewhat for extra gun ele. or depression. Laid em crosswise under front or rear.
Russians always carried em on T-34 and actually chained them to tracks iirc when needed.

Easy 8 had duck bill grousers added for extra traction on tracks too.

Pete

"I wonder if some of the improvised armour had this effect ie acting as spaced armour like modern day bar armour or RPG netting?"

It needs a fair distance too work prolly at least a foot or two off the armor then the blast focus would be lessened l think.

Pzkp-IVH and late models had the skirts around the turret and sides. Also zimmerit anti mine coating.

Heres a good link on it

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-iv.htm

Because the Pzkp-IV looked a lot like the Tiger in late war a lot of tankers believed they had encountered Tigers when in fact they had not.
It was a very capable tank in its own right.

Great wartime video on the PZKP-IV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NwX0EYht7g

Looking at modern bar armour, I think you're probably correct that a foot or two gives the best results, but post war, tanks went through a phase when even their integral armour incorporated a space..

The Israeli Merkava springs to mind as that was reputed to store diesel in the space between the armour..

Getting back to using concrete, until I did some reading as a result of this thread, I didn't realize how extensively it was used on armoured vehicles in WW2. I am not talking about just unofficial crew modifications either..


Its seems the American 12th Division added reinforced concrete to Shermans as part of an "in field" upgrade..A picture search on google shows just how much it was used..





It seem the Russians, Brits and to a lessor extent the Germans, also experimented with it ...Below is supposedly a T34 with extensive concrete armour:



Most modern accounts seem to write it off as being totally ineffective, but it must have had some positive effect, or why would the 12th have used it so extensively?? Especially considering the extra weight it would have incurred..

The concrete was apparently minimally effective at stopping a Panzerfaust or anti-tank round, but test showed that it significantly reduced the splash of molten metal that went in a tank and actually killed the crew. So, a tank with concrete armor might still get knocked out, but the crew had a better chance of surviving that initial hit and getting out alive.

Look at 1:06 in this video:



It seems the movie makers show the logs as added protection in combat. I'm not sure it would be as effective as represented.

The 750th Tank Battalion in the ETO poured reinforced concrete on its glacis had to use jackhammers at the end of hostilities to remove six inches of the stuff. Experiments conducted by the 709th Tank Battalion in February 1945 indicated that poured concrete did not stop bazookas from penetrating the armor plate, but that it did reduce the splash of molten steel inside the tank caused by the warhead to �negligible� proportions. Based on combat experience, tankers in the 753d Tank Battalion concluded that antitank rounds that hit concrete-reinforced armor had a reduced chance of killing the crew, even if they knocked the tank out of action.

Yes spaced armor was a end of the war (WWII) and post war development.

Merkava has its engine and fuel tank at the front iirc. It adds a fair degree of protection for the crew.

Christ does that T-34 look oddball or what LOL.

My nephew in today's Veterans Day Re-enactment at Camp Maybry in Austin. He's the middle of the 3 guys standin in front of the Sherman. It still runs great!

Well unless you have a hell of a home sound system, you are cheating yourself, the tank battles are an awesome display of the power they deliver.

I'm waiting for Pay per View.

I thought it was good. The tank battle scenes with the Tiger were great and the weapons were really authentic.

I did not like the the scenes of Americans killing ordinary prisoners; that would have been rare in Europe. At the end the Germans wanted to be occupied by the Americans and not the Russians because American troops did not routinely rape and pillage.

Interesting thing I came across....

in the scene in "Saving Private Ryan" at the beginning of the movie where American soldiers shoot two German soldiers attempting to surrender during the storming of the beachhead, the two "Germans" are actually pleading for their lives in Czech, portraying Czech guys pressed into Axis service along the Atlantic Wall.

A nice touch, be interesting to see what Spielberg would have done with "Fury".

Birdwatcher

Old D-Day and Omaha Beach Vet I knew said they didn't take ANY German prisoners on D-Day.

Just saw the movie last night and thought it was a great movie. Especially the tank battles with the confusion, noise, excitement and limited visibility when "buttoned up." It was just like that in live fire exercises and field maneuver exercises.

Since I have a big screen and surround sound, the movie theaters offer absolutely nothing to me. I always wait for video at Red-Box or pay per view.

Saw it today. My only gripe had to do with the two potato masher grenades being dropped down the turret. Had that happened, there'd be nothing but hamburger left inside that tank afterwards.