I just had a look through my journal tonight. Did a little tabulating. Of the 114 big game animals that I have taken so far, fully one third have been running or fast moving shots. My farthest first shot at an unwounded animal was under 400 yards. The average kill distance was not calculated, but I would estimate just over 100 yards. I am from Saskatchewan, with plenty of opportunity to fling bullets at animals waaay out there. My personal experience is far different than a lot of what I read about on this website and many others.

I am a little mystified by all the emphasis on long range shooting at North American big game. In my experience, it is nearly always preferable to stalk closer, not shoot further. It is also always preferable to shoot at a standing animal from a rest, but in real hunting situations being able to accurately hit a moving animal is often a huge advantage in thick cover. But what I see on these discussion forums is almost all about long range rifles, cumbersome bipods, super high power scopes, and little discussion about real field marksmanship, where an animal is close, alert, and may be moving out. I have the advantage of my own shooting range on my own property, but many suburban shooting ranges apparently do not even allow offhand or other field shooting positions for practise, just from a bench. Rifles and shooters are praised for their grouping ability, not the rifles handling characteristics. Shooters are assessed for their ability to make tiny groups from a bench rest, not whether they can hit the target quickly and decisively from a variety of field positions.

It is very different here from Germany, where I have hunted a few times, and South Africa, where I have hunted only once. German hunters know how to hit moving game, and practise field shooting with and without a rest. They even have "shooting cinemas" to simulate shooting running game on driven hunts. They have a lot of professionalism and take pride in good shots and a low incidence of wounding. In Africa a hunter pays the trophy fee for any animal hit, whether or not it is brought to bag. Interesting how that pretty much eliminates all the long range attempts from the field. People don't tend to do so much long distance shooting if there are personal consequences for a bad shot and wounded game.

I have no quarrel for those who really enjoy the challenge of long distance shooting. Some are even pretty good hunters. But I think far too many beginning hunters have been given bad advice and are limiting themselves with specialized equipment meant for long range sniping at stationary game. I have had several guests at our elk camp in recent years who could not quickly take a shot at a close elk because they were carrying too much scope magnification, too long and cumbersome a rifle, and a cartridge that kicked them too much. When the shot was presented, they were worried about estimating the range, trying to deploy bipods, and all the other BS that doesn't apply if the game is within 300 yds and you know something about quickly taking a good field rest or shoot from sticks. Just some food for thought. Many of us hunt with different styles and with the equipment that appeals to us. No argument with that. I just have to chuckle at all the newbies who want to be able to shoot big game from 400 to 600 yds away, when that is a very rare occurrence, and requires specialized equipment and skills that aren't applicable to 95% of real hunting. I think the marketers have taken over far too much of our equipment and skill decisions. Just my observation, flame on if you want.

OCD?

Success comes from experience. Experience comes from failure.

I don't think young hunters being unprepared for realities in the field is anything new. The good ones will adapt, the bad ones will stop hunting and post a lot on the campfire forum.

15,000 posts and up qualify for that ineptness...

call it what you want..

On the ground at twenty paces with a longbow...

I like to get as close as I can...and then get closer.

Just another tool in the kit, the ability to shoot long. As is the ability to shoot well offhand, or at moving targets, or with a bow, muzzleloader, or spear. Some folks seek out opportunities to use specific tools. Some folks equip themselves with as many tools as they can to hunt what's available to them. It's up to us grownups to each know what we can and cannot do ethically. I've killed critters with my .300RUM from bow range to ranges that make some squirm. If you can shoot long, odds are you can still shoot short. Vice versa, not so much.

+1 on that!!!
That was what the Old Man, my granddad, taught me

That (should) be the definition of hunting.

I wanna shoot a kudu, in SA


from here

All depends on who's doing the defining.

or the filming and we'll leave it at that.

Now you're talking....lol.

You take the shot that is presented or you go home empty handed. If that means you need to shoot 300-400 yards, deploy your bipod, and wait for the animal to get into a good shooting lane across a canyon, swale, ravine, or creek from where you are, then I'm guilty as charged.
As said above- just another tool in the bag. Of course, it takes practice and decent equipment (not necessarily anything exotic)and the proper mindset. Not everyone who carries a rifle can or will make the long shots just like many guys can't hit a running animal if it was to run over him.

Nothing unethical about taking a long shot if you have practiced enough to make it with near certainty and you can't stalk any closer- a fairly common occurence in many areas around here. If you don't have the skill to make the shot, don't take it. Only you can decide if that means you or not.

Bob

114 big game animals taken so far - vs. my, uh, do squirrels count?

My hunting friends who are gearing up for long range shots do so only because it is the only shot possible. The area they hunt is rugged and steep, with long canyons and high ridges. The brush is thick. They were very excited at seeing a black bear at over 400 yards and have been practicing for that opportunity.

But they still carry 30-30s for the majority of their hunts. And I practice at the range until I can get away to that rugged brushy public land.

I don't advocate taking long range shots just for the sake of taking a long range shot. I believe in getting as close as practical, but there are times when a long shot is justified. And having the skills to do so can be a good thing.

To me the only real hunting/stalking skills are those being used by guys who consistently take game at under 25 yards, usually with archery gear. Most big game can be fully aware of your presence out to at least 100 yards, sometimes as close as 50 without being alarmed.

Probably 1/2 the deer I've shot have been taken between those ranges and looking right at me when I pulled the trigger. I don't think it takes any more skill as a hunter to take game at 50 yards than it does at 500. It takes a lot more skill as a shooter at 500 though. While I cannot do either, my hat is off to those who can "CONSISTENTLY" take game at archery ranges, and those guys who can "CONSISTENTLY" take game at 500+ with a rifle. Both have highly developed skills that require dedication and practice.

It is the guys who brag about never taking shots over 100 yards while setting in an elevated stand overlooking a pile of corn that are neither hunters nor shooters.

If I hit a deer at 500 it is more luck than skill, same with a running shot and I've never connected the times I've archery hunted. But give me a standing shot at around 200 yards with a rifle and I feel pretty good about my chances. I'd pull the trigger at 300 or a bit farther with a good rest, but that is my limit. I guess I suck as both a hunter and shooter.

I just can't see going on a rant, or beating up other hunters on an ethics or skills charge, because all of them don't hunt the same way as you do.
Geez.

Yeah, this topic gets kind of old around here. I'm not smart enough to tell others what they should or shouldn't do, how they should or shouldn't hunt....

This is funny. The original poster wants to tell others what not to do while not wanting others telling him what to do.

These are the key words. If everyone could remember that.

And Ringman, I don't think the OP was trying to tell others what to do. If you go back and read his post, it wasn't really anti-long range, just observing that new hunters aren't well equipped for short range because of all the emphasis on going long.

Inevitable that it would go this route though.

Although I agree with the OP about being over scoped in most cases, I'm a rifle looney. I used to shoot competitively. I like everything about rifles and glass. I simply find iron sighted .30-30's that could handle 99% of the game I've shot uninteresting.

As long as this thread has degenerated Ill say I watched a show on Bubbavision last night where the dude was toting a Remington Stainless Fluted Sendero in 300 Ultra mag with a bipod and a VX-Hubble Scope from Leupold, complete with turrets.Laying proned out on some rocks he got a standing shot at a broadside bull elk at 230 yards.


Yeah, you guessed it.......missed twice.




On an animal the size of a Toyota Corolla....

The way I look at is, if possible a hunter will try to get closer every time. And then brag about how close they got....

A shooter will take the shot and then make a little sign with the yardage for the hero pic. And then brag about how far the shot was....

The guys shooting does at 1138 yards are obviously way more into shooting/gadgetry than hunting, that is not even debatable. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the LR guys actually back up for a shot just to brag they got one at blah blah blah yards.


And that's fine provided they are capable of the shot.


There is no right or wrong. Shoot or hunt, who cares so long as you cleanly take the animal.



(I'm sure some archery hunters think any rifle hunting is cheating)

230 yards? Just proves the point that most guys don't shoot enough and can miss equally well at any range. The amazing thing is, they showed the misses, they don't normally do that.

Im with you Sammo...but I honestly prefer the hunting stories where the animals got powder burns on their hides....

Fun hunt, back in the day when I wasn't comfortable shooting 400+ yards. Caught a big whitetail bedded in a overgrown field.

I spent an hour crawling on my belly till I closed the distance to 250 yards (can't get closer, grass was thinning out) and then waited another hour and a half for him to stand.

Now that I own LRF's, turrets etc and have shot plenty past 1000 yards, I'd probably try to crawl closer.

My gym has The Outdoor Channel on cable. I turn it on sometimes when I'm there. From my observations, the hunts they like to film the most are bow hunts.





And disapproving of one but not the other is just a personal value judgment. I'm not sure I'd call the long-range guy a "shooter" though, plenty like to do it both ways.

I hunt old reclaimed strip mines in east KY. I have shot most of my deer at 20 yrds or less in the timber. I am getting older Now bad back and knees and prefer to Hunt the more open spots were shots in the 400 to 500 yard range are possible. This year I will be a little more prepared for those shots. Bipod and all.

In hunting you need to have enough compassion for the amimal that you will pass up a shot that your not confident in .If you have a good solid rest ,and enough gun to still have energy at long range,and good glass,then I see no difference in that than someone feeling confident attempting a 100 yard,or less shot free handed.I live in an area,and have enough free time that I can be choosey about my shots,so I'm not much of a long range type hunter,but I can tell you that a good solid position to shoot from is more important than distance.

OLD age AND wisdom...

I agree Bob, but a post like that needs pics...:

I shot a blackbuck in the Hill Country back in the 90's from 250 yards...and it was all I wanted. He was a good one and they were moving further away...there was no way to get closer. I stood my porro prism binocular on its objective end (caps on) and shot across the top of my binocular (caps on there too). It was the only thing I could use for a solid rest. I was already past any cover and it was wide open between that animal and myself. That was the longest shot I ever made on a game animal. I still get excited...once I've made the decision to shoot, and commence to doin' it...my heart is in my throat. Nearly all of the deer and antelope that I've killed have been inside of 100 yards...and I prefer it that way for myself. Guys being able to center punch game animals from 300 yards or more, consistently and confidently, is pretty impressive to me. I do not have the ability to do that.

Interesting reactions to what I wrote, which was not intended as a "rant" but as a comment about how I believe most hunters would be better served by using appropriate versatile equipment and practising quick close shots. I certainly was questioning the culture of long range hunting shots, but in the context of new and inexperienced hunters limiting themselves with specialized equipment for long shots, and neglecting to practise fast shots from field positions. There have been a few thoughtful replies and I am grateful for them, but unfortunately quite a lot of defensive posturing from some folks. I was hoping for more of an informed discussion.

doesn't hurt to be able to do both.

I was going to post some pics that look just like that but I haven't had a chance to load them to photobucket yet. We hunt country a lot like that. If you aren't prepared to shoot 400+ yards at times, and also 50 yards, you might as well stay in bed.

Bob

I see these statements all the time and my stock answer is that not all of us have the time or place to routinely go out and practice moving shots at game freehand and every other position or the ammo to do it these last couple years, with reloading supplies so difficult to get. On top of that, with all the a-holes doing damage in the forests these days, a lot of our shooting areas are being closed down and gated.

If you don't have access to places like this or own a large piece of dirt yourself, it becomes hugely difficult to stay in the practice most hunters would like to. Add in that with the pressures to stay employed these days, there isn't as much free time to pursue these objectives in a proper manner, it is a wonder any one hunts at all any more. Running people down because they are doing the best they can is counterproductive at best. Encouraging people to continue hunting and developing their skills as best they can will keep hunting viable and current.

No matter what, there are always going to be a certain number of "ill-prepared" hunters just like there always has been. Probably the reason so many of them hire guides to raise their percentages a bit.

Bob

The reality is that most deer hunters couldn't hit a circus tent at 300 (an honest 300) yards.

When I helped run the gun department at a large Reno store there was a vacant lot across the street. The fence on the far side was exactly 200 yards from the store window at the end of the gun counter. Customers would routinely estimate the distance at 300-500 yards...would swear to it...

I'm guessing if you don't have a place to practice sitting, kneeling, and offhand shots at 50-200 yards you sure don't have a place to be verifying all your drop and wind drift charts/programs for long range shots. Which is something you dang sure better be doing if you plan on shooting at game at ranges of 400+.

In my world the shooting is the easy part. Finding them is the challenge. I practice field type shooting several times a month. I often hunt coyotes and Jacks w/ a rifle so I understand moving targets. I also know if I see a Wolf outside of my 4-5 hundred yard comfort range I will wish I had better skills and appropriate equipment. Know your limitations and live w/ them or expand them, Your choice in a free country.

mike r

The challenges of filming hunting shows has contributed to both tree-stand archery and long range sniping be shown most often. The sort of quick shots that arise while sneaking through thick cover can rarely be caught on film. Moreover, the additional noise that a camera crew generates makes the odds of shooting an animal even lower than they are.

But when shooting an animal at 600+ yards that is unaware of anyone's presence, it doesn't matter if there is a shooter, a spotter, a camera man, a candlestick maker, and so forth.

Success is best when you're shooting what you're comfortable with. Some guys can shoot howitzers, some can't. Some like lever guns, some don't.

I don't shoot bolt actions well for jump shooting, but they're great for a bench or rest. For jump shooting I prefer a Savage 99, and do much better with them. Stick with what you know best when the chips are down. I find most bolt guns very unwieldy for field conditions and slow to cycle for quick shooting. YMMV.

I can miss all day long with a bolt gun, but got these two running with a lever gun.

damn you're a young buck.

God post Mike. I also grew up in Nevada and have shot running jacks by the truck loads. I'm thinking the OP is not happy with the posts from some of us that can shoot from near and far on game of all sizes. Kinda reminds me of the guys that promote little cartridges because they can't handle a magnum. To each their own as they say. For the OP: Shooting game is not a "one size fits all" proposition, some of us hone our skills regardless of the range

So you like to shoot at running targets?

Not hardly.

Often that's the trade off for getting too close.

OK. How about this...I like to get as close as I can...and then get closer...without spooking em' and causing em' to run off...if I can.

There 'are' other skills involved in hunting than just the shooting part...at least there are for me.

There are shooters and there are hunters! Seldom do the twain mix!

I guess I should have made myself more clear when I said long range and put a number on it and stated that it applied to only my own comfort ability . For me 300-400 isn't what I would consider long range. 600, 800+ is where I would not feel comfortable when shooting at live game. Wind is the tricky factor here and most people would probably have to admit that at those ranges, and dealing with cross winds, you can't predict as well where a bullet will land than as you could at 3-4 hundred yards. Missing a steel plate is of no consequence unless you're in a competition shoot. Wounding an animal, for me, is an altogether different matter. Again, this is just my own opinion.

Op
Lots of little kids don't have a strong desire to hunt and couldn't sneak up on a dead deer but thanks to dear old dad have managed to pop some pretty big cornfed deer.

Gives dad bragging rights about what a great hunter their four year old is.

You missed a perfect opportunity to post the cow elk pic for the 182'nd time.

Surely you have pics with you and some of the game shot from near and far?

Is 48 young? I don't feel young!

There are a few guys here on this site that are both.
(I am not even remotely close to being one though)

And I would not want them sneakin' up close with a bow or shooting my ass at 1000 yards. Unless it was really windy and I was running.
Then I'd take the 1000 yard chance....grin

I wouldn't fell safe at any distance with your neighbor hunting me.

You can stop right there......range is a constant....a gusting wind is a variable....

No kidding.....grin

LRF's are constant, shooters dealing with wind (at those distances aren't) which was the point. Of course you like to hear yourself talk so carry on.