After reading the post on the poor state of game in parts of Texas and then reflecting a bit on reading some thoughts by Elmer Keith last night I thought it might be time to sat at the keyboard and unleash some thought that have been running circles in my mind of the last twenty or more years.

For the most part I have never been a trophy hunter. This in no way is intended to be any kind of a slam or put down on those who have collected beautiful trophies or have trophy rooms bigger than my barn. I always enjoy seeing the fruits of their hunts and I like to see pictures often posted here as well as view the mounts at places like Cabela's.

But my thoughts wander to looking at the long term effects of hunting for giant heads. When we pass up spikes, forks, and even modest four points to take a monster head are we not taking the best of the genetic pool and leaving the worst?

Before anybody points a finger at me and asks if I have passes on a monster and taken lesser deer I will confess that yes I have. For three years I watched a monster mule deer. Not the writer who posts here but a four legged six point or better real deer. I lived in a canyon and so did he. All through the year I watched him from early velvet to glistening mahogany colored glory he wore as head gear. I watch him lay in the afternoon sun against towering basalt palisades taunting me as I sat with a steady rest and looked at him in the crosshairs of my 25-06 from around 200 yards. An easy shot and me with an open tag in my pocket during season. I am sure the porcupines have long ago devoured his bones and I am pretty sure no one ever shot him. It was private land and he had no reason to move on.

Why, because every year he was widening his gene pool all over that ranch.

My wife and I like to feast upon wild game. But rather than take the best of the best I would rather feast on a spike or better yet a fat baron doe or cow.

So what say you? Am I wrong?

The vast majority of trophy mule deer die from old age/natural causes than from a bullet or arrow.

OK, I believe you are right but is that a bad thing?

I agree, Scott.

Take the chance to do the deer herd some good when you fill the freezer.

Besides, those antlers don't get real tender, no matter how you try and cook 'em.

Means I'm not going to worry about dropping the hammer on a mossback.

Well that is why you bought a tag and you sure don't need the go ahead from anybody else. I was just asking for thoughts.

He's always wanting to play chess, when the game is really checkers...

We have a spike and doe season here and that's when I work on them. I have passed on many big bucks which were not true monsters and could be expected to get older and bigger while spreading their genes. Some I would have taken with a bow and tried to but never got the chance.

I lost the enjoyment in taking a medium sized buck many years ago, first with a gun and then with a bow. I would leave that prize to a youngster or newby who would be thrilled in getting it. To me they loose their luster when their eyes glaze over.

Maybe some day the thrill of outsmarting a really big buck will also pass and in fact I am less industrious in making it happen with each year that passes.

I wouldn't take any does in the late season if I didn't like the venison and that I have a pre-64 Win FWT 243 that is a joy to hunt with and I'm getting older and it deserves more notches.

Didn't think you would understand, and I was correct.

Sounds like you want to talk about feelings..

Sorry.

I hear ya Scott

The thought is the large mature heads have had quite a few seasons to pass on their genetics and are entering the twilight if their lifespan. Better my bullet and table than a pack of yotes or starving to death over winter.

While I'm not a horn freak, but certainly appreciate a nice trophy, I also don't like the extent to which "trophy" wildlife has been commodified. That same market however also protects a lot of prime wilderness.

It is what it is to each person. That's kinda the way it oughtta be.

Wishing I would have been hunting with Scott at the time. I hate the 'waste' I consider it to be for squirrels to destroy a monster set of horns.

meat hunter here with similar tastes, if there's a 60 inch moose standing by a spike fork, I'm filling the freezer with the spike fork.


used to have similar thoughts as Scott when we were knocking the hell outa bou bulls in the Mulchatna herd, if we weren't cleansing the gene pool to the detriment of future hunting

nowadays there really ain't a Mulchatna herd, but from the pix and trophies I've seen the antlers from the NW Arctic herd aren't of the same caliber as the trophies we were taking

well scott, what did edward alby say about it? A young man without a blood lust, probably isn't much of a man. An old man with the same blood lust probably doesn't have much in the way of brains?
To each his own, but i have never been a trophy hunter, not important to me, filling the freezer is. And I a long time ago stopped shooting stuff i had not use for, as to the eating department.
I chased one buck for probably four years, had multiple chances to smoke him, and didn't. Mainly because i figured out his modis operandi, and after that it wouldn't have been a chore to kill him, but no purpose in it.
I am off end of the week for deer, the trip itself is enough, the killing of a deer is secondary. I have nothing to prove.
I also was on a trophy elk bull for quite a few years, smart ol fellow. But after i figured out how he managed to stay alive, i left him along.
A couple of years ago, i downed a pretty good cow elk, and was telling my grandson how sad it made me, to take it's life. I remarked that in my book that sadness comes with the territory.
His comment was that sadness will disappear when gramma puts that steak on the table, and he was right about that too.
But I don't take it lightly.

I meat hunt. Don't much care about antlers.

Yep!

My wife fusses at me for shooting a old deer, buck or doe.

She prefers the young ones, and its not rocket science...
they're tender and they do taste good!

[i][/i]

I would agree with this, but I have never turned down a trophy when I had the chance. I have quite a few trophies, but they were gotten over the years while I was hunting meat...

What I hate to see is a big trophy deer laying on the side of the road, that probably was nocturnal and got hit by some drunk or speeding idiot at 3 in the morning...

Years ago I came to the realization that the best trophy you can hope for is the biggest buck in the pasture you're hunting.

So....... I set out to try and pattern the biggest buck in the pasture each year, and kill him. It keeps me interested. I figure I get it done about one year in four.

I kill cull bucks and does to eat, and I leave camp with that in mind. I want the weather to be right for meat preservation when I do, which means killing them of an evening in the early season.

No sir, I was just talking about thoughts and primary on herd improvement. I chose not to take that big guy back then and today I feel good about that decision. I do not get over there any more so I don't really know if it worked or not. And I am not saying I would never shoot a huge rack if the chance came again but it would not be my primary reason for hunting.

Each and every person that hunts has their own reasons for heading out and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Your reply did not offend me in any way, not that it matters.

It's hard to beat a fat old buck - killed before the rut.

Those big guys had the same genetics when big as they did when they were running around as smaller/younger deer.

Shooting the smaller/younger deer might be taking the same exact genetics out of the herd as only shooting the big ones under your scenario.

Shoot a doe - how do you know she wasn't just made pregnant with the next Jordan buck? You don't. There are a bajillion "what ifs" in nature.

So in the end - shoot what you like - if all you want is meat, great, if it just has to be legal antlers, great, if you want to wait for 150+ inches - great.

In the end, the trophy and its definition only belongs to one person - the nut behind the trigger.

Well said.

I do believe the number of years you have been hunting has a lot to do with it. I go way more for the hunt and way less for the blood. Thinking about it my first deer hunt was in 1964 and I went alone. My family never hunted and fished less than a dozen times so I had to do it on my own. doing the math would make that first hunt fifty years ago. My attitude has matured a lot.

I don't believe our animals in this part of the state have suffered as bad as in curdogs part. Son has some of the best animals on his property we've seen I years.

tell it to the pa game commission. i've said that for years. i have shot many spikes that were older deer. but the buzzword of the decade is qdma, and that means shoot all the does and leave the spikes to breed whats left. some counties you shoot 3 to a side, others four. but don't count the brow tine. oh and some counties you have two weeks of buck/doe. others are 1 week buck and 1 week mixed. the friggen biologists and "bone hunter" lobbiests have made deer hunting in PA a total mess on a heck of a lot of public grounds.

I believe it was Valerius Geist who said that for every trophy taken, one should take 10 immature non breeding animals in order to keep the herds healthy.

Scott the winter of 95-96 or 96-97 can't remember was devastating to the mule deer pop in south central BC, over the next 5 years I seldom took a buck and I could have shot many but I wanted to build the herds back up. It worked and the gene pool was rebuilt.

norm

I had a feeling someone from PA would show up bellyaching early on in this thread. Unfortunately, I was right.

I do what makes me happy on any given day. Always have, always will.

Like said before, how do you know that 2 year old dink you just shot doesn't have the genetics of a 200" buck?

There's a lot of emotion and not a lot of science on this thread.
If you're feeling emotional about it, fine, just don't let your feelings replace nature.

Please, regale us with the science.

You tell me how passing on a long tooth while killing his offspring
helps the herd..

I don't see much emotion, but I sure see some stupidity.

Which is the main reason seasons get cut shorter, minimum rack requirements are added, and deer herd quality goes down.

First, you have to be enough of an outdoorsman to recognize what deer need to be taken, what's mature, what's not. What barren means and looks like. And savvy enough to know if you take the lions share of the top genetics out of the heard, then the result will not be favorable.

Then you may need to be enough of a seasoned hunter to pass on a nice, young buck on the chance you may see him next year, or someone else will. Or accept the fact that if you take out the big bucks early in season before the rut, they most certainly won't be breeding any does to improve the herd.

If you want to shoot a big buck, then please do so. If you want to hunt meat and shoot does or dinks, then do that too. Just use your head in either case.

For cryin' out loud, it ain't rocket science.

Sorry, that isn't the science you're saying is missing. Do you have the science you say is missing? If so, please enlighten us.

Chit that hurts herds and horns are development, and crappy forest/land management, first and foremost. Second is buck/doe ratios.

I won't deny that dudes shooting the chit out of anything with horns on an overcrowded lease will keep critters from becoming wall hangers, but that's not my concern.

RDRR

Again, I couldn't care less what someone wants to shoot and doesn't want to shoot, they are all trophies in one regard or another.

I'm not going to say you're wrong, but I will disagree a bit with the logic. The very biggest muley bucks we kill are 6.5-7.5 yrs old. By letting them get to this age, they have already spread their genes around the place for a good 5 years or so. Best of both worlds to me.

I believe the worst mistake we can make, if you're into managing your land, or managing for trophies, is to shoot those impressive looking 2.5-3.5yr old bucks. I will leave those alone for another 2-3 years at least.

Complete agreement here.
I figure if the good Lord wants me to shoot a Booner, he'll send it through before I see something else with brown hair.

I like to eat venison. Like Shrapnel mentioned earlier, I have shot a few decent trophies, but they happened along when I was hunting.

I do my best not to shoot a button buck, but other than that, the game is on.

I get LOTS of little bucks that roam through during November. Hardly ever see one more than once. I'm making it a point to not see 2 of them more than once this year.

Spot on.

Been seeing one unicorn buck around and another cow horned spike. They are for the freezer if they show in November.

Points well taken. Management or rather bad management does a lot more harm had done more harm than hunters have ever done.

My reservation might also have a lot to do with the health of the herds where I hunt. In Central O R where I passed on the big buck those three years were we when poaching had severly decimated the herds.

Scott, Always find this subject, and comments interesting,and wonder how many of you have anything to do with herd management? or know anything about herd management?How many of you have hands on experience in herd management on large tracts of land? rio7

Couple of guys posting in this thread would do well to talk less about hunting and maybe actually do some hunting. Passing mature bucks so they can spread their genes and because you "can't eat horns"....GMAFB!

OK, Lets kill all the bucks and bulls then see how much better hunting gets.

My post was about thoughts on the subject not some sort of mandate everyone must follow. I am not a democrat.

I have none, but I'm not a cattleman, just a hunter that isn't interesting in raising livestock to slaughter.

Just wondering if your never going to kill a trophy animal why let them grow. The genes are already there or you wouldnt see the big one you are talking about. The genes are in the young bucks as well. Just my opinion and its worth nothing. ED K

you and gary alt can both GFY

You must be who Rio is talking about.

There's a right time to take a buck. A right time in his season, and right time in his life.

"Mature" is subjective too... A buck that lives to see 3 1/2 around here is pretty old. Because everyone shoots everything with antlers 'because they can'.

Philosophies get a bit different when you actually start trying to improve things. Would it piss you off if you were following proper management techniques only to have the hunter 1/2 mile from you shoot anything with hair on it?

Some get it. And some don't.

I hear you. Imagine the nerve of a guy killing the deer he wants on HIS property. WTF is this country coming to when people think they can do what they want on THEIR property.

Viva Obama!

Steelhead, there was no mention of cattle management in my comments or of raising deer for slaughter, or for antlers, i am happy you are a hunter, and shooter, i have a some time,tell me all you know about deer, shouldn't take long.rio7

I weren't talking about cattle management either, you stupid [bleep].

God put deer on this planet for man to eat. Bucks [bleep] doe. Deer live outdoors and will do what deer do and that's be deer.

Pretty easy really.

I fill the freezer first. I don't shoot spikes. Anything else will do.

After that, I try to take a decent buck, after he has most likely already had the chance to breed.

Sometimes I will take a deer for others to eat....

Yes, it is pretty easy.

That's why most states, even out west where public hunting abounds have put minimum size restrictions on antlered game. And limited the harvest to one animal.

For people that can't regulate themselves.

I started out as a meat hunter but became more of a trophy hunters for a couple decades, though I always did take some meat deer as well. Now I am once again more of a meat hunter, though won�t pass up a good trophy when one appears.

Also have studied game management both in college, and a lot since then. The �kill all the spikes� theory got big play for a number of years, so much that it�s obviously part of the mind-set of many hunters today. But it was disproven years ago, because spike bucks may just be due to poor nutrition their first year, whether because they were late fawns, their mother was young, or weather in general.

Does carry not only fawns that may turn into a trophy, but carry genes that result in big antlers on bucks as well. So killing does and not bucks doesn�t guarantee anything except that the buck you pass up will live a longer. Whether he ends up as a trophy is a matter of chance, and not just from genetics but nutrition, which varies enormously, especially on public land.

Yeah, we can grow big bucks on private land, just like we can grow huge cattle by selecting for genetics, but if we choose to breed bigger-antlered bucks like cattle (as many do in Texas) we may be selecting against other factors that may be even more important for herd survival.

On a personal research note, the idea that mature �trophy� bucks aren�t good eating is generally BS. Big mule deer can be less tasty when worn down by the rut, but I have eaten several exceptions. I�ve yet to kill a big whitetail during any part of the rut that tasted less than good, and some were great.

I am a trophy hunter. Everything I put on the ground and freezer is a trophy for me.

My point being, ask Manlicker when the last time he killed a buck was, any buck, let alone a mature or "trophy" buck. Same with ScottF....

Well put, John.

Yeah the word is getting around about spikes.

Being selective with does is great too. It's just harder to teach folks about what does to cull, and what ones to keep.

Exactly, like Teal mentioned earlier genetics are there from the time a buck is born until he's dead.


When we buy a young bull for breeding cows he is turned out with the cows. His genetic potential is there right from his first poke until his last. You sure as hell don't keep him penned up for 2-3 years first.

Bulls just become a pain in the ass when they are older anyway.

Lots of old cows, not too many old bulls.





As for the emotional side...

Who doesn't feel a little bad shooting a rutting mule deer right when he is in his prime....

I'm always worried about shooting the 'last big buck' and then have some dink 5 year old fork horn with chit genetics start breeding the does.
That could be bad but doubt it happens all that often.

And as he put, maybe BIGGEST isn't what is best for the 'herd'. But if you follow that it is, it's time for all you boys to let the 'bucks' have their way with your ladies.

I killed 2 fat does this weekend. Going to see if I can kill another next weekend and then, probably hold out for a decent buck as the rut gets going. So long as I have venison in the freezer, I'm happy, whether it had horns or not.

There's spikes, and then their are other spikes. Some need killing. I don't let a 2 year old spike walk.

We have the 13 inch rule in all the counties I hunt. Now I'm seeing quite a few tall, heavy, but narrow racked bucks, some 5 and 6 years old.

We are losing the genes that make for wide racks and also the ones that cause racks with lots of trash on 'em. They get killed as 2 or 3 year olds because they meet the 13 inch inside minimum. The old narrow racked bucks we used to cull just keep passing on those genes until they die of old age.

What I'm gonna say next ain't scientific....... I believe that often the genes that make for impressive racks sometimes pair with genes that make a deer more intelligent. I've observed a gathering of 2 year old bucks and the one with a good rack was just naturally more cautious.

And, NO, in at least two cases for sure, the caution was not born of experience.

And....... Peggy says "Hi" to you also, Blue.

For those of you who don't know...... Blue has forgotten more about managing game than most of this forum will ever know.

I'm generally not picky. For the most part the first legal animal I can get a clean shot on goes in the freezer. Anything else is just playing with my food, and it leaves me free to go on to other endeavors, be it more hunting, home projects, etc.

There have been a couple occasions where I've taken a cull over of several "better" options presented at the same time. The hunt's the same, the meat's the same, and it makes me feel good to do so. Big racks on their own don't mean that much to me.

I don't mind killing a large-antlered prime animal, nor taking a bigger one over a smaller one. More meat. During the rut, I'll take a cow over a stink-bull every time.

Probably. They are darned sure more invisible.

I kill mostly does and cows. It fits my time constraints better.

According to the biologists here, it's better to shoot bucks based on age rather than rack size. The exception being spikes. There are some good articles worth reading.

http://www.slideshare.net/tonypugh1/aging-on-hoof-3
http://www.tpwmagazine.com/archive/2004/nov/ed_1/

Those with 2-3 inch straight spikes are safe from me. Those with some length and curl to the beam, not so much.

I guess I have always chosen the game by its availability and let the biologists worry about the gene pool...

I don't like taking skinny speckled back, (young of the year) pin-feathered doves or small bass that haven't had a chance to reproduce. It's not a big deal though and on camping trip hunts years I have put some spotless young of the year on the camp pole for meat. They are tender but you need bacon grease to enhance the flavor.

A lot of it has to do with the fact there are a lot of whitetails in Texas and I often see lots of deer if I'm not hunting the Big Thicket country of East Texas or the prairie/ desert of west Texas for mule deer where does or fawns are not normally legal unless its a big ranch with lots of deer and on a game management program.

I don't shoot quail when the numbers are drastically down even though the state still okays 15 a day, even if on a good day you'd never even see that many.

What I hate to see is a trophy whitetail in the woods or field edge with no head and hasn't even been field dressed. Redneck idiots who just kill a dear for the head and don't even try and get the meat or even cheak it in. I have seen several while duck hunting over the years.

Well stated.

Artifacts (heads, photos, or that bullet-holed shoulder blade on my piano), are mere mementos of the real trophy- the hunt, and memories thereof. Or should be.

The ones like this need killed at every opportunity. I have killed several similar to this but eradicating this gene will take a long time or maybe never because of the limited area that I control. Even if I had more control it might possibly take a complete eradication program to get rid of this. I think that I have helped but it is still here. miles

I think I can answer for myself. I have not hunted since I moved to WA. Part of that was 52 weeks a year of 65 to 70 hour work weeks. Part has been health. I shot a fork the last season I was in OR. and that was while watching the monster.

I got a good laugh about Blue not knowing what he is doing and basically accusing him of high fence. I know him well enough to understand if I knew 1/4 as much as he does I would be a wise man.

Curious what Manlickers excuse(s) will be....

We've been removing the spikes for about 40 years now, much to the chagrin of most everyone I talk to. Fortunately, for me, on our place I get to call the shots. Since there is a limited number of us hunting, We limit ourselves to one mature buck (that being 4+ years of age), and as many spikes or does as you have tags for. We can kill 5 deer. 3 of them may be bucks. Last year there were two bucks killed. That's about 1/5 of what we can stand. I encourage the killing of spikes. I've seen lots of 1+ year old deer with better than spike racks.

My purposes are strictly food related. From a food standpoint we have two winters in South Texas. One is from first frost till the end of February and the other is oftentimes from June - August. This year there was not a green thing growing in July and August. The brush was losing its leaves and the deer were stressed. They had a two month reprieve till now and it's getting dry again. Every spike I remove is one deer's worth of food that I feed to another deer in late November - February.

Likewise I am concerned about my food so I encourage the taking of those spikes and does early on in the season when they are the fattest.

Now, with that said, the last set of horns I killed was ten years ago and I haven't shot any at all in the last three years except for one that I gave to my son the firefighter. He took it back to San Antonio and his shift ate it in a week. It was a spike.

Food should be at the core of hunting and fishing. It should be the main reason we hunt and fish, not the ONLY reason, but the main reason. My father taught me not to kill something that I did not intend to eat. Well, literally that doesn't make sense, but figuratively I know what he meant. He wasn't expecting me to eat coyotes or the skunks raiding the hen house, but he was expecting me to act in an honorable manner in regard to the game I killed.

Now I've got a few horns on the wall, and I will say it's not just about the size of the horns. In my hunting experience, The older bucks and consequently those with the bigger horns are a challenge to hunt under free range conditions, much more so than spikes and certainly more than does. I think they really do know what's going on and the ones that mature don't get that way by standing out in the road for very long. Shooting a nice buck is much more than just the size of his antlers. It is matching wits with an animal that is much smarter than we are in the woods.

Yes, there's canned hunting where 10- 15 150+ buck mill around out in the road waiting for the corn truck to come around again. We all know what those places are and essentially the "hunters" are buying a set of horns. I don't think that is the subject of this conversation.

Personally, I'm more impressed by weight. Our deer are somewhat smallish. I can lift the average spike or doe over the tailgate without field dressing it. A buck that weighs in at 150#+ is a brute. Some of those northern white tails will be pushing 275# dressed. That's nearly three does from South Texas. That's a lot of WORK!

I have no issue with anyone hunting horns as long as they always use the animal for its core purpose, which is food. They don't have to eat it but it's their obligation to find someone who will.

Oh well�


Alan

Well said.

The mule deer ranches that I have been hunting on as well as doing habitat projects on (Gained two more new properties this year, one of which is 11,000 acres) I am handicapped in what I would like to do, and should be done IMO, by our states 3 point or better rules. As a result, we see dozens of forked horn bucks each year and some of them are quite large. If I legally could, I would have the guys that hunt with me take a bunch of little bucks and or dry does. And I saw a couple of WHOPPER single or loner does this year that would have yielded a nice pile of meat and helped the herd out. The rules, as written, tie my hands and cause too many medium sized bucks with room to grow bigger to be shot.

Yes, yes you are..

So should I be banned for life because I worked hard and then became disabled? Do I have your permit I on to ever hunt again?

Your replies to a simply post about what animals someone would choose to harvest have been pretty harsh.

Perhaps before I post again I should ask for you OK and then ask you what opinions I am aloud.

Just interesting how those in the bleachers seem to know everything about the game. Must be all that reading about it.

Maybe The_Real_Browneye will come along and give us some hunting or game management pointers.

GW, as a matter of fact I am legally handicapped and can hunt from my quad or 4WD truck if I need to. I have a disabled hunter ID etc. Why is that a big deal to you?

FWIW, I should be UN handicapped, health and mobility-wise, sometime in the next couple of years of I get a Kidney transplant soon.

I see several posts in this thread wherin you try to talk down to other posters here, do you any substance to ad to the thread here, or just gonna sit back and throw poop balls and think you are being tough?

Like moths to a flame.

Got any pointers for harvesting "WHOPPER" does?

How's stfu for a pointer.

You being the flame of course...

Yeah, draw the too few given doe tag and hunt one of the private ranches I have permission to hunt on. Not hard, just have to get the states blessing. THAT part, is, IMO too damned hard. Many more doe permits need to be given and the stupid little forkies and spike bucks should become fair game too as I see it. We saw a good number of extra large does this year. Typically by themselves VS in with a herd.

How about you? Have any pointers to share or real info to add to this thread? Your poop balls are not having any effect. And your last couple of attempts to flame or bash or roast someone are pretty pathetic. Maybe try adding some real content for a change. Now THAT is an idea, or "pointer" for you.....

Dick Autistic, tell us what you learned from this months issue of Field & Stream.

Quite clear that you are flat out of ammo and really scraping the bottom of your barrel, wit or flame-wise. But then, it wasn't much of a barrel to begin with, was it?

As I posted earlier in this thread I made my first deer hunting trip in 1964. You hunting back that far? I have seen the woods at least once in my life and am pretty sure I would recognize it again. It may surprise you I even know what deer and elk look like. Last bunch of deer I watched was Thursday. But I didn't kill any last week so I guess I am no longer qualified to say anything about them in your eyes.

Sad state when a simple posting of a question about hunting and harvesting becomes a name calling match. But what would I know, I'm a new guy around here and could never know as much as you.

Don't worry Scott, those of us that know you, hold you and your opinions in high regard. miles

I will normally shoot any legal deer I see.
around here,you may only see one deer a year.
next weekend,it may be a blizzard.

JFC, is there a topic where Claiborne won't run his con?

Did I ever post a picture of a deer I shot on the way to the range?

Any thread about actual hunting is gonna become about people instead of game pretty quickly.

It's easy to see which members don't have much to offer a conversation about actual, real life HUNTING. They're gonna talk about theirselves....... of someone else.

Now....... back to the CONVERSATION...

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the Boss Buck in the pasture may not have the most desirable antlers. Deer are not impressed by B&C scores. Body size trumps antler size as far as a pecking order.

But... each year on large ranches a few Trophy Bucks are killed in fights with other Trophy bucks. The killer will be a young, slender horned, buck who runs in a rams a sharp horn into the gut of one of the two large combatants.

[I don't know if GOOGLE will confirm that, so I could be lyin']

Boy, you really p h u k k e d up the gene pool that time Schrappy...

I've seen ugly scrungy pissed off chip on the shoulder eight pointers run much bigger and more desirable ten pointers off feeders and does. I guess in some ways they are like some people.

He just keeps coming back for more.

Last year I was legally entitled to five deer, and three turkeys. I took one of each. I certainly could have taken more, but didn't.

On my current lease I took the #2 deer, an 8 point with 16" spread. The largest was a 10 point with 18" spread. Supposedly deer as large as 22" wide have been killed on the lease, according to the landowner. In hindsight I wish I'd let him go another couple years, but he was a sneaky devil, and I didn't get him until the next to last day of the season. I have no doubt he was breeding a lot of does, and passed on his genes. This year I think I'll take a doe early, then hold out for one bigger than him.

It's nice to have meat in the freezer but I am definitely more selective as I get older. There's a couple of young bucks I passed on last year, and I am real curious to see how they've grown, this year.

I also remember one lease years ago, where the "rule" was, don't shoot a deer under 15" spread. I saw one opening weekend, that I judged a hair too small. Two weeks later the lease manager shot it. It was 14"

You have to let deer get big, to have big deer.

What a beauty! I am guessing you didn't throw that rack away.

I found it interesting that later in life Elmer Keoth came down pretty hard on wildlife management and those who decimated the deer and elk herds by killing off the best and leaving the culls.

Good - and very much the same here Gene. But, it's never been a "pasture" - hunting the big country of the SW often means effort over some distance - very challenging now for an oldie. So, am very happy to find what MAY be the best buck in the vicinity, get to good range, and take it.

Unless willing to go out of state it is one tag a year on the good years - sometimes none - so a deer hunt is a big deal and I'm not "monster" selective. There are a couple of nice racks sitting here in the shop, but over about 50 years of doing this have never even considered having anything mounted.

The hunt - the meat.

And the challenge of matching wits with a big one. Otherwise, in country with a lot of deer, there's not much difference in shooting and cleaning a goat or chicken.

Generally speaking, when I go hunting it is for meat with the 1 exception of dall sheep. When moose or caribou hunting, I take the first legal animal I come across and for me size doesn't really matter.

But unlike Randy, if a 60+" bull moose is standing next to a spike-fork, i'm taking the 60+"er. lol

That my friend is what separates the hunting from the killing.

I never put too much effort in anterless season.Most are deer that I can drive right up to,and throw them in the truck ,but I do try to be selective on size,and only shoot big ones.There just aint nothing to them doberman sized deer to justify shooting them,but by the time buck season comes around our freezers are full,and we're so sick of working them up that I don't even want to fool with a real small buck,I don't shoot spikes,or young deer with small forked racks,and skinny necks to me that's just another doe.I will however shoot any buck with a mature build .I have shot 5 points that are bigger than some 8 points.

Strange that none of the people, that seem to think all deer will be great bucks if let live long enough, have commented on my deer picture. Their silence is very loud. miles

Milespatton, I just re-looked at your post and I agree with you 100%. Some deer are genetically pre-disposed to never be good bucks. Just like no one in my family will ever be a 7 foot tall basketball center. The genes simply do not exist.

One of the reasons I wish we could legally cull some small antlered forked horns and spike bucks. I think that these dinks are just going to pass on dink genetics. I have a couple of really nice mule deer bucks on my walls already and do not need another. I would be happy to spend the rest of my deer hunting days afield shooting cull deer, but the regulations won't let me.

Your point is made, and right on the money IMO.

Now, Miles,you know that deer would have added one point on each side each year if you hadn't killed him.

His Grandad or Great Grandad or whatever he was, did not. I saw him a few times but never got to shoot him. He had a large 5 point beam on one side and a small 2 pt on the other, for several years. At first we though it was a broken antler, but after game cameras came along it was obvious that it was not. Funny thing some of the bucks have the good antler on one side and some on the other. Left and right handed if you will. I could make a couple of good mounts by splicing the skull plate on some that I have. miles

Culling to improve the population is a good thing in my eyes.

Culling to improve the population is a good thing in my eyes.

Yep.

Since I mostly hunt my own place, I just see it as being a good steward of my land. miles

What most seem to be missing in all this is the variables that happen in a deer herd.

I see lots of generalities that just don't fit.

There are 4 main things that make for a healthy deer herd, and trophy quality hunting.

1) Maturity. You have to let 'em get old enough to BE trophy quality.

2) Nutrition. Much to some people's surprise is the fact that there are good years and bad years as far as what's avl. for deer to eat. And although the comparison has been made here that growing deer isn't like raising livestock...

I beg to differ. The land is still land, no matter if you have cattle, or deer, or trees on it. Lake Guerrero, in Mexico is a perfect example of this... No limits or size restrictions on bass. Catch all you want, have the guide fillet them and take back 3 coolers of bass fillets for a fish fry. Those that know of that lake, know what happened, and what had to be done to bring fishing back up to par...
The land will only support so many of whatever you choose to mention. If things get out of balance, then nature takes over, and she can be a cruel mother.

So, either by starvation, disease, fire, or bark beetle, nature will find a way to balance things.

3) Genetics. Not all deer are created equal.

Some comments in this thread are by people that believe that no matter which bucks are left to breed, and which does get bred, the genetic pool is the same before as it is after a particular animal is taken out of the equation. It just isn't so. A trophy type buck breeds several different does... then 4 1/2 years later you see 5 of his offspring standing side by side... Are they all alike? Are they all trophies? No. Are they all dinks? No.

Is a yearling spike the same as a 3 1/2 year old spike? (Or older) Of course not. It's not all nutrition based.

4) Proper balance.

Buck to doe, and nutrition to numbers.

Are you figuring in the drought, or the bad winter? Lots of variables here.

**********

Lots of people have their opinions and have posted about them in this thread. I grin when their convictions are so strong about one thing or another. "All spikes need to be killed." "Taking a trophy makes no impact on the heard." "I always..." this, or "I always..." that.

What I find most interesting, those that won't accept any personal responsibility, nor do they care, as long as they can say "I got mine... fugg you. I paid for my license, and am legally entitled to shoot whatever I want."

Whatever you hunt and kill makes an impact of some sort on the big picture of things. Some are more long term, while some are short term. Some are a positive impact, and others, not so positive.

I have sure taken my share of trophy bucks. As I have advanced in my maturity as a hunter, I don't feel the need to shoot everything with horns, or hair, and have taken a different stance in what I personally choose to hunt and take, and have learned what those choices may lead to, in times to come, and what my grandkids will have left over to hunt, kill and learn their own lessons on. May even have the chance to take another great buck on day... But, in the meantime, I'm happy, and more than thrilled to see a big buck that made it through the season too.

Miles, that photo of your buck spoke a lot to me, and I applaud your attitude. A few years back a yearling bull elk running this area was wearing a very lopsided set - normal vs. measly. We watched him grow over the next two or three years and he became a FINE bull - very big and well-formed like the others in these parts. However, that rack always was odd - got to be heavy six one one side but scraggly on the other.

Normally I don't hunt this unit because it requires muzzle loader but decided to try to nail him for the meat in the Fall. Maybe some of my impetus was to "cull" him to help the pool - can't claim that but it would have been a good thing as well. But, I did not draw the needed tag for that hunt.

The following Spring while chasing wild turkeys I came across his carcass near a spring just a mile or two from our Campfire site - shot in his prime and left to die - entire elk left for the scavengers and the rack undisturbed. It was sickening in the moment. Who knows whether a rack hunter saw the good side, downed him and then walked away when he saw the other side - or if it was done as a "culling" act. Either way, the waste of that meat was bad news. Enjoy eating that nice buck.

Paul, I enjoy eating all of the deer that I shoot. I do not shoot more than what I think that I will need. I do hunt every day if possible and watch a lot of deer with not intention of shooting them. My wife has asked me a bunch of time why I go when I have no intention of shooting a deer. I reply that I enjoy watching them and always learn something and then too, I might get a shot at a coyote. I will shoot what I deem a cull most days if I have the appropriate tag. We are now allowed 4 deer but only 2 can be a buck. The only reason for me not to shoot a cull is if I have one already dead that needs processing. I take my time now and may take 2 or 3 days to cut and package a deer. Too, I am picky about getting all of the silver skin and stuff off but I leave muscles in large chunks and cut the steaks when cooking. Raining today so I worked on that doe that I shot the other day. Just one ham left to do. May wait until tomorrow for that. miles

Sometimes, cull bucks can be trophies. I took this young man out for his first deer on a ranch where they wanted to take these kind of deer out of the herd. This deer would never become a 4 point and both he and his genes were eliminated that day...

A few years back, I had a goat horned spike on the place that needed killing, but not legal for me. My Nephew was out hunting an asked if he could bring his young cousin (no kin to me) out for a hunt. He promised to be with him and watch out for him so I said OK. I sent them to the area where I had been seeing the spike in hopes that he would get a shot at him, since it would be legal of kids under 16. He killed a small 6 point Eastern count, and was tickled to death. I would not have shot that deer but I am glad the kid got one. He was very nice and thanked me profusely for letting him hunt, and loaning him a youth model .243 that was easy for him to handle. That is the kind of things that I like to look back on and think about. The spike never got killed to my knowledge and finally just disappeared. Last that I saw they were long and curved forward like the main beam on an 8 point but with no points, just the main beam. miles

A guy I hunted with killed a 5 1/2 year old spike. It had spikes over 11 inches tall and a pretty heavy base. It was in the end, just a spike though. Had been, all it's life. I have personally seen mature spikes whip much bigger bucks and breed the does...

I congratulated him on his kill.

3/4 of the bucks killed today are not trophy hunting kills. they are farm animals that get slaughtered by there owners.i grew up just going out in the woods and waiting to see what comes along. i still do this today on the same property.this year i've seen sign that there may be a huge buck on that property. i have not seen him yet. i could put up cameras and find out what he looks like but i'd rather just hunt and wait.i still enjoy trying to kill the biggest buck that is on my property,he may be not be a huge buck every year. if i have to feed,fatten and raise to be something he wouldn't normally be then i won't enjoy the hunt as much.

Opinion, or do you have stats to back that up? miles

Miles, Just wondering have you put anything on the ground with your .280 rcbs? rio7

Not yet. Rifle season starts November 8. I did kill a doe with my front stuffer. Got some meat. miles

Miles, Our season started Oct-1,should have talked you into lending the .280 to me, i could have kept it warmed it up for you till Nov. ---grin.rio7

It might would have worked. miles

Trade him for the Hepburn Miles.

What? And have to keep one eye on you all the time? miles

Scott, the .280 Miles, Has is a beautiful rifle, but i think i will keep the Hepburn,old guns and old men just seem to go together,and Miles is to young and handsome for a Hepburn. rio7

It's for sure best to keep those from getting a hold in a herd. Great kill there for sure and in more ways than one, Shrap.

If being old and ugly are the only prerequisites for ownership........... I qualify.

And I'll come after it as soon as you say the word.

I got a BSA Scope for it.

Do a European mount and folks think it's a REALLY nice whietail........... See..

Miles - the deer hunt is getting near and am thinking about taking a home made .280 - but it does not have the RCBS feature. Do you think it will do the job as well, or should we try to cross it with yours?

Hands off!! If it goes anywhere it is mine and I can prove it, it's got my DNA all over it.

I don't figure it to do as well, but it should be adequate. I am not sure what you would come up with if you crossbred them. I also have a 7mm08 improved and the RCBS is just a 7mm08 twice improved. I am headed back in the field right now to dial it in a little. I have it close at 100 yds, with my fire form loads but want to shoot it at 200 to fine tune it. It is a little bit windy but where I will be shooting is protected a lot. Trying to get things done before our first frost of the season that should be tonight. miles

Miles and Scott, We have to watch Curdog, or he will have the .280 and the Hepburn, under his arm and head for the hills of West Texas, and wear them out shooting big mule deer and jackrabbits, don't turn your back on Curdog, he's a sneeky old man. rio7

On another Note,Last night i was watching 3 real nice bucks all over 160 b&c and in walks this little buck with a pot belly and crappy antlers, went to water and then was just standing around, watched him for about 20 min. decided to take him off, just before last light, brought him in and he was a 8 1/2 yr old ,no teeth left, scored him 84" b&c. never know what you will see around here. rio7

I think I meet him at the last Qumato gathering.

Blue, if you will just keep up, you would know that one day he would have magically sprouted a 150-160 rack. You just did not leave him long enough. miles

By the time a buck is recognized as a monster he has already sorted out enough does to ensure his lineage

I have now. Shot a small buck this morning. Pictures in the Deer hunting forum. miles