Recently I finished reading a book about the Mad trapper of Rat river and am currently reading Alaska's Wolf man about Frank Glaser.

In the Mad trapper book much of that ordeal took place in extreme cold down to 40 below. I didn't see any mention of the clothing worn by the trapper or the Mounties and others who chased him.

In the Glaser book He mentions Filson wool pants and mackinaw but that's all I've seen mentioned so far.


I'm curious what they would have worn in those conditions. Just wool? Fur? Goose down maybe?

Any titles of books that might have descriptions of clothing and gear would be appreciated too.

have read some, but mostly it's just living here and having an interest in our history.


and realizing folks from those eras had it much tougher than us and therefore were tougher


nothing as warm as fur, caribou hides are still one of the best insulating ground mats available

but weigh more than the stuff we typically use

shoe pacs were a popular item as they shed water better.

in the old days of fur mukluks if you went into overflow you were often well served, if you could get out of the overflow quickly enough, to insert your wet foot or feet into a snowbank, at least here in the Interior to let the dry snow suck some of the moisture out.

fire building skills were much more important and again technology was matches by and large


wool underwear, wool pants, Filson type mackinaws were hugely popular items for the frontier guys.

but fur hats and fur mittens still have a valued place in many folks kits that live and travel in places where it gets really cold.

A lot of them didn't wear what was best. They wore what they had available and lived with it.

I think Frank made himself a Caribou sleeping bag. It weighed 17 lbs and he thought it was great. Pics of him in the book shows him in furs. The Mountain Men used wool blankets to make their clothing so I think the people of the North would do the same.

You would be amazed at what people wore and got away with back in the day. To a certain point, cold is merely a state of mind.

I read an old account of an Indian leading a party of British soldiers in the old Northwest somewhere around the great lakes in the 18th Century. The British were bundled up in their great coats and the Indian guide was clad in buckskin leggings that were mostly open and little else. One officer asked the Indian how he did it in the cold. The Indian asked the officer why he didn't cover his face. The officer said that his face didn't get as cold as the rest of his body and that it was used to the cold. The Indian replied, "Me all face."

I know for a fact that an awful lot of Hudson Bay Blankets were turned into clothing.

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

Those are both great books.

I always thought I was pretty tough in my younger years. Not bar room fighting tough, but durable with a minimal amount of whining and able to get by without allot of bells and whistles, but reading Glaser's story makes one feel like a real panty waist.

As far as clothes go, as stated above, Frank was pretty proud of that sleeping bag. There are also a lot of pix of him in fur, soooo, wool and fur would be my guess.

Yeah, I've always thought I was rawhide tough (I suppose everyone does) but the more I read about these guys the more I realize I woulda' been a wimp in their day.

A few years ago I read about some research done to determine man's ability to adjust to the cold. Volunteers were put in a situation below freezing. At night, they slept almost naked and with only a sheet for covering. After thinking they'd die the 1st night, they quickly adjusted to where the could sleep comfortably.

you oughta see the size of the wrenches they used on the dredges up here

those lil bastids were tough and strong

no toothache meds, no ibuprofen, no anesthesia for surgeries needed

I've no doubt some of you that post here are modern day tough, and some no doubt could have made it back then

but as for me, I've come to realize I'd have made a fair pimple on some of those tough guy's azzes.

I've set on the edge of the hard seat a few times, but never planted squarely in the middle, thanks in part to the technologies and advancements of modern living.

we live much longer now than back in the day, and us old guys have aches and pains that many had in their 20's and thirties back then.

A lot of guys who died from the wet and cold back then would have come home happy if they'd had today's clothing and equipment.

My great grandfather, who was by all accounts a mean SOB and not in a good way, died in the early 1950s in his 70s. He was a logger his whole life. He also lived his whole life from about the age of 5 with one arm. He broke it as a kid, the doctor was drunk and bound it too tight, gangrene set in, and it had to be removed below the elbow.

So, anyway, with that one arm he still was a logger and was known in his 40s to take two young men out with him for a day on the crosscut saw and wear both of them down in a day.

He was tough. And the thing is, for that day and age, he wasn't all that remarkable.

I'm pretty convinced that far from improving physically, we are regressing. Roman soldiers used to march 30 miles in a day and then build a wooden fort EVERY SINGLE DAY of a campaign. Fossilized human footprints found in mud show humans chasing gazelles at speeds calculated by the footprints to be better than 25 mph. Even the best trained athletes and the toughest soldiers, can't hold a candle to some of the physical feats and endurance shown by relatively average people before the age of mechanization.

Yes, both great books for sure. While not specifically mentioned, it wouldn't surprise me if Frank lived in Filson wool. The company had already been selling clothing to the Klondike crowd and was well established, and Frank seemed to always buy nice rifles, so I assume he buy the clothing of the time too. Just a guess, but while reading about Glaser, I visualized him in a heavy wool mackinaw and pants (tucked into his boots).

I agree Field Grade, that level of toughness is almost awe inspiring. What Glaser took for granted as normal probably couldn't be matched by most of today's men. And if it could, there'd be a self-promoting blog or reality show, rather than just a tough as nails man quietly living his life.

As an aside, I like that even as much as the Campfire has changed over the years, it's STILL the place discuss this kind of stuff. Carry on.

Yes, both great books for sure. While not specifically mentioned, it wouldn't surprise me if Frank lived in Filson wool. [/quote]

Ahhhhh,,,, Frank actually mentions his Filson wool several times in the book.
There's even pix of him wearing it IIRC.

Couldn't agree more about this being a good topic for the fire.
It sure as hell beats all the bickering about politics or "god forbid" another Ferguson thread.

I've enjoyed reading about the different rifles he hunted with and which ones he liked and didn't like.

He killed a LOT of grizzly bears with calibers that are considered too light today.

He thought the .220 Swift was an excellent big bear killer.

Not sure why it took me so long to discover good wool outdoor clothing.

In the last month I have bought 2 pair of pants, one a very nice pair of Woolrich, a Woolrich sweater, and Stormy Kromer outfitter vest. They match my Kromer and Woolrich caps quite nicely, if I do say so myself

I had a Cabelas Windshear wool shooting sweater that I dearly loved. No idea where I left it. I managed to pick up a new one for like half price last year. It will definitely see some use soon....

I read both of those but it has been a fewer years. Along with several others. I remember in some book reading about gum boots. Aperintly some kind of rubber.
Braving the cold is nothing new to the pioneers regardless what time frame. Think of the mountain men.
I recently read about a game warden back in the day that kinda startes the bush plane thing in Alaska. Sorry don't remember the title. He describes a lot of how the delt with the cold. Like draining the oil out of the plane and keeping it warm on the wood stove at night. Flying an open cockpit plane at 60 below couldn't have been fun...
I think those people were tougher than us.
Read up about Hudockivich.....from around delta junction...another tough guy..

I love that part. Didn't he have a rifle blow up in his false shooting at a grizzly..

I'm a big fan of wool myself. I was issued Gore-Tex and the polyester stuff when the Army got into it and then I bought all kinds civilian wonder gear but was never that happy with it.

Now I hunt in an old Woolrich or Filson wool mackinaw and wool pants or bibs and a Stormy Kromer cap depending on how cold it is. It's quiet when I'm walking and I'm warmer than I was in synthetic stuff.

If it's raining I wear an old oiled or waxed (don't know which) hunting coat and it does just fine.

I got all of it dirt cheap at thrift stores. I guess I'm one of the few people that like it, because it doesn't sell well so they price it cheap.

Works for me, I've got 5 or 6 Filson mackinaws and 2 Woolrich. I paid 23 bucks for the most expensive one.

Yeah, A 145 grain .30-06 round blew out and temporarily blinded him. He shot 2 griz from about 50 yards iirc and the blowup happened when he shot the second one.

He knew he had at least one wounded bear but he couldn't see for awhile. He swore off using 145 grain loads after that.

I think I found him- Pilot

So, I always hear about these great thrift store finds, but when I go, most of the stuff looks like a beaver chewed on it a bit and then used it to wipe his ass.

Frank had a primer blow back or some such incident.
Both great books!

I live close to Frank's old Black Rapids Road House and have knocked around that area quite a lot. Windy SOB!

There are several photos around of Frank in his Filson Alaska Tuxedo.

Those old timers usually wore wool and covered all with a long wind shirt of heavy cotton nearly canvas.

The Game Warden mentioned was probably Sam White.

I also liked Jim Rearden's book about Slim Carlson the old trapper on Minchumina lake. It includes his very interesting annual grocery list......100 pounds of coffee....we Swedes drink a lot of coffee but two pounds a week will keep you wired for sure......I suspect he chewed some of it also.

I live in a retirement area. Lots of folks move here and their belongings get dumped in the thrift stores when they pass away.

Most of them took good care of their stuff.

Bella Vista, Hot Springs, or Mountain Home?

Russians in Siberia used to wear canvas pants and tops, with fur sewn inside, skin against the canvas, the fur against your skin.

Ha! I guess that explains why I seemed to visualize him wearing Filson!

Mountain Home. You in Arkansas JoeBob?

I want to thank everyone for the conversation. I didn't know if this topic would have any interest and I'm enjoying the discussion along with learning a lot.

Nope, barely out, but I'm from there and that is where I do all my hunting.

Well If you're ever in the neighborhood give a holler.

I'm guessing but out by sawmill creek, the hajdukovich creek probably isn't the same namesake?

I recall reading some flight books with Reiners name in it.

I really should buy some more books, those are good reading.

The discussion of '20's/30's clothing (and mention of elderly people passing on) reminds me that I've got a pair of CRAZY heavy wool sweaters worn by my grandparents in the 30's while driving in their open touring car. I was also given the horse hide jackets they wore over them, but think they might be at my folks house.

I own a couple Filson Waterfoul sweaters which are heavy, very high quality worsted wool garments, and the heaviest commercially available sweaters I've personally seen, but those old sweaters from my grandparents make them look like cheap knock-offs. My grandparents were VERY hard working, but probably weren't considered extraordinary at the time...............that's just how everyone lived. People in 1st world countries are so soft and spoiled today, and don't even realize it.

As far as people being tough in the old days, you ever see what they wore in the summer? It is amazing they were dropping out right and left. Photos of men in wool suits and hats in 100 degree heat.

I'll bet they were all some kind of rank.

One of the great things about wool is that it doesn't get as stinky as synthetics. I guess the bacteria that cause the odor don't live as well on the wool fibers. Another good thing (unless you're trying to block the wind) is that wool breathes. This makes wool clothing comfortable under a wide range of temperatures, even pretty warm temps. Nowdays you can get wool shirts and T-shirts that are pretty thin and appropriate for reasonably warm days. I use those when traveling where I can't get clothes laundered. I hate nylon and polyester.

About 1957, I found my late grandfather's hunting gear stored in a attic trunk. At the time, my hunting clothes were a navy pea coat with red bandanna pinned on back, jeans and artic galoshes . When I found his Woolrich coat. Woolrich double bottom, riding britches and lace up knee high leather boots. Thought I was about the luckiest teenager alive. The coat was great unless it got wet and the pants looked kinda silly but I wore them for years. The leather boots were flat out dangerous. Ever try side hilling on snow covered slopes wearing leather soles?

Yep,,,, that would explain it.

I actually felt remorse when the fur market crashed and Frank had to leave his beloved cabin and eventually find work with the government.
His years in that cabin sounded like pure heaven to me.

That book is actually on loan to me from a member here (Lonny). I better read it again before he remembers I have it.

I heard about it a few years ago from a friend (who's also a 'Fire member), and after reading it, bought a copy for my dad to enjoy. For a non publicized book, I'm continually surprised by how many people I've visited with who've read it..........my mechanic for instance, just last week.

Come to think of it, I have "The Mad Trapper from Rat River" on loan to him.

Coincedence or just good books? Probably a little of both, but good thread either way.

[/quote]

So, I always hear about these great thrift store finds, but when I go, most of the stuff looks like a beaver chewed on it a bit and then used it to wipe his ass. [/quote]


I also have several Filson & Johnson garments - all from thrift stores. Trick is, look hard and look often.

TFF....




Travis

So, I always hear about these great thrift store finds, but when I go, most of the stuff looks like a beaver chewed on it a bit and then used it to wipe his ass. [/quote]


I also have several Filson & Johnson garments - all from thrift stores. Trick is, look hard and look often. [/quote]




Yup. My wife and her friend browse the thrift every week. When she finds something she thinks I might want she either buys it then or calls me to see if I want it.

I usually do.

My dad found a brand new Genesis grill in a thrift shop around Kerrville, TX. $40.00. And I mean, brand fuggin' new.




Travis

I bought the Mad Trapper book about the same time I bought the Bronson movie, but can't remember which one came (to my house) first.

Dayum......

I am old enough that I knew quite a few of the old timers who worked outdoors in central Idaho where some parts of it have rough winters with -20 and sometimes -40 winters.

I was always amazed at the sheer number of clothing items they would have on. Wool long-johns, a pair of pants over the long-johns and a heavy pair of wool pants over that. On top it was pretty much a repeat, long-johns, a shirt over them and a heavy wool shirt over that, some wore a vest over top of all that.
Usually they would have a silk or wool scarf around their neck and on their head they usually wore a wool cap with earflaps.
Boots were the weakest part of the outfit, most wore a pac type boot with a couple of pair of heavy socks but I don't remember them being near the quality of todays pacs with the super insulation. Most wore mittens when they could since gloves are damned poor at keeping hands and fingers warm.

But it all came back to what is still the way to keep warm - layering.
If you are working hard and start to sweat take something off, if you start cooling off put some back on.

Personally I prefer a wool jacket, it seems like every time I put on a down or synthetic insulated jacket it starts raining or sleeting and which makes their insulation value about zero.

drover

Did they make a movie based on that book?
And if so,,,, why in the hell wasn't I informed?

The movie was pretty loose with the facts though.

Death Hunt with Lee Marvin and Charles Bronson.

Might be him I know of him from local legends around delta when I worked there. A guy that was our manager owned the property where he had a cabin. And there were some stories of him walking to town I think like 30miles or somthing for a can of snuff in like 40 below and decided it might be time to quit.

The pilot game warden was a different guy. Ill try to find the name you will enjoy his story.

The game wardens name was Sam White. Found it at amazon. You will enjoy it...

Thank you! I would appreciate it.

This one, Right?
Amazon

You never saw Death Hunt, Charlie? I'm shocked...........

I may have but I don't remember anything like that.
You'd think I would have though since 90% of my TV watching is either TCM or the Western channel.
I just did some googl'n and see they made "Mad Trapper" a made for TV movie in 1972.

I'll see if I can find either one for sale somewhere.

I didn't know about the 1972 Mad Trapper movie.

BTW, Death Hunt also has Angie Dickinson in it.

Death Hunt was the first. Then Death Wish 1-5.....grin

Yes, forgot about Angie.....

Actually, my favorite movie that Bronson was ever in, was Once Upon a Time in the West, by far.

Harmonica.....

Heck with Angie - it has a Savage 99 in it!

Yep. Both nice guns..........

That's the one.
When working in Prudohe bay I read a bunch of those books about early Alaska
There sure wasn't much else to do. There was some stories about the guys that found the oil in the Artic back in the 20 s.

I always thought it was odd that they got the detail of the trapper's rifle correct but so much of the story was wrong.

I just ordered the Sam White book, Looks like it'll be an enjoyable read.

An excellent contemporary reference for the hunting clothing of this era is the art work of a good friend of western artist, Charles M. Russell. A gentleman by the name of Philip R. Goodwin.
Google his artwork. You will recognize much of his work!

I have no doubt that some guys from way back when were pretty tough. But I also don't doubt the fact that guys rarely let the truth get in the way of a good story, especially when the story is about how awesome they are.

So I take any story of superhuman deeds (especially those involving dead people that can't be confirmed) with a heavy dose of salt.

Thank you! I was hoping you'd see this thread, I knew you would have some information on the subject.

If you've ever been in true extreme cold you'd know that cold is not a state of mind. When temps drop south of -30 it's at the point where it will hurt you, and hurt you quickly if you are not properly dressed.

There is a big difference between heavy clothing, and effective insulation.

Have some Goodwin artwork close by, at all times......

I watched that with my folks on our B&W TV back in the early 70's when I was in kinder garden...........I have NO IDEA what the hell my folks were thinking. Some of the scenes in the movie haunted me for years!

So did I. It's threads like these that pay for my 'puter.

As long as we're on this subject does anyone recall the brand name "Melton"? They made wool outdoorsy type stuff and I recall hearing about it growing up in the early 60's. In the fall of 1973 I purchased a brand new Melton "Wintermaster" heavy wool shirt that I have to this day. It's part of my cold weather deer hunting wardrobe. It's a real quality item that's in great shape for being 41 yrs. old. Haven't seen or heard of anything "Melton" in years so I'm assuming they're not around anymore. Or are they?

Melton is a type of wool cloth.

Yup! Several well known posters in my bedroom!

I just googled "Melton" and discovered that it refers to a type of fabric that 95% wool and 5% nylon so now I'm not sure who made that "Wintermaster" shirt unless someone was using that as their brand name. Whoever made it was located here in America and they made it darn good. Reminds me of that old saying that "they don't make'em like that anymore". (Or if they do it's usually in China).

Not familiar with the brand, but "melton" does refer to a type of wool fabric, which is for sale HERE by the yard as well as being used in garments under other labels from places like Orvis. Not sure if this helps or not.

So did I. It's threads like these that pay for my 'puter. [/quote

Glad to help I hope you guys enjoy it.
Maybe we should start a campfire book club.....

Campfire book club.. I like that idea.

Met a Russian language teacher that taught English to the reindeer herders in the Yakutz area of Siberia.

In the winter two layers of caribou were used. hair side in against the skin would wick away moisture and the outer layer was hair out to cut the wind.

"Our Southern Highlanders" by Horace Kephart mentions what people in the area were wearing at the time which wasn't much.

good advice, but not always accurate ime


take the case of the Mad Trapper of Rat River, he wasn't tooting his own horn. It was the Indian trackers and folks in the neighborhood that witnessed what he was capable of that tooted his horn.

He may have been a bit off, but the bastid was one tough hombre.
there's a passage in the book IIRC about him hauling a boat up through a pass.

it wasn't recorded by his admirers, if he had any friends they weren't mentioned.

and I'm 56, have lived in AK for over 34 years, lucky to have met some of the old timers before they passed.

it wasn't the stories they told about themselves, doesn't seem to be the way of most tough guys I've met, it's the stories they tell of friends and enemies that make me realize we don't measure up very well these days.

course part of it is, you don't know what you don't know


I ask guys about hauling heavy loads out in a packer nelson pack frame (pure torture from my perspective)

but it was state of the art to them, so they were glad to have it, use it and they did. They did in fact eat sheep meat back then and moose. And wore heavy wool and leather clothing and cooked in cast iron. Cause there weren't better alternatives.

guys not a whole lot older than me, going on a 7-10 day sheep hunt and taking just candy bars.

can't blame us for using the modern conveniences available, but those guys were indeed tough.

How about the guy who hiked the Wrangells and summited some of the highest peaks. He was from Chitina and took a pocket full of oatmeal for supplies. Climbed them a couple years before they were "officially" summited.

I think I remember that story from Jack Wilson's book about flying and sheep hunting in the good old days.

Take it for what it is worth but my granddad wore every day a pair of wool longjohns, long sleeve wool shirt, bib overalls, monkey socks, and a pair leather work shoes. He added a denim chore coat and a pair of 12 buckle overshoes in the winter. And it gets cold here. He always said what keeps you warm in the winter keeps you cool in the summer. By the way he was born in 1895

I'm thinking this must be his son. The guy I heard stories about was earlier and started Rika road house on the Valdez Fairbanks trail.

Yup, there's a big difference between those that are on their feet in the woods all day, and those who are sitting at a desk or in a squad car all day.

Or as I've said in the past, don't measure others abilities based on your lack of abilities.

And there are still some pretty tough guys in AK, look at Roman Dial and other competitors in the Alaska Mountain Wilderness Classic. Sure, they wear modern clothing, but the cover some serious ground with minimal gear in not much time.

John Hajdukovich had his trading post and ferry operation at Big Delta where the Alyeska Pipeline crosses the Tanana River just North of Delta Junction. It is operated today as Rika's Roadhouse, a State Park. Rika was John's lady friend and he had to give her the place for back wages owed.

John ran a river transport and trading boat in the upper Tanana country as well as guiding big game hunters mostly in the Granite Mountains immediately South of Delta Junction.....thus the Hajdukovich Creek of today that is very popular with Dall Sheep hunters.

UAF recently found some very old movies of one of his hunts.

The story of John Hajdukovich can be found in Judy Fergusen's books.

Very well said.

Ever wonder why you don't see any fat people in old photo's?

Me either.

From what I can tell, Being fat in those days was a luxury only enjoyed by the very rich.

Not going to bed hungry was often a luxury for the average person.

My paternal grandparents were young newlyweds during the Depression, and worked VERY long days with two jobs each. They talked about what a huge deal it was to save up for a fried chicken for dinner. Both passed away in their 80's and 90's without every being overweight.

My mom talks about how getting an orange in her stocking was a big treat at Christmas.

Most of today's population is definitely spoiled and unprepared by comparison.

I was hoping a local would help me out. Thanks.
I went for a boat ride with Kevin Ewing up the clear water and he showed me johns cabin and told me some local legend stories.. One of the best jobs I was ever on had a great time in delta....