I have some brass now for a 8x58r Swedish Arsenal Rebuild.

I did some measuring of the chamber area over the weekend using very basic methods, but feel my numbers are close, at least close enough to beg the question.


groove diameter of the barrel at the muzzle is 0.323"
Brass neck thickness is 0.010"

My brass, once loaded will have an exterior diameter of approximately 0.343-0.345" assuming I am putting in a cast bullet at groove diameter. (I do plan on casting 215gr RN)

The neck area of the chamber has a diameter of 0.358"+/- a couple thousandths.

blowing out 0.014" everytime its fired, than resizing, isn't going to be kind to my brass, is it?

Probably not.

I have a SW in 38.40 that has a difference in the size of the chambers and and my reloads that is less that that and I only get about two loadings from brass before I begin to see split necks. But the heavily tapered case may contribute to that also.

Sucks because it is a fun gun to shoot and actually very accurate.

That's gonna suck, because at nearly $2.00 per on brass, its going to make me regret wanting to shoot this thing.

We share a like addiction. Eccentric toys and women are costly.

Could you use 45.70 brass? Might be a bit short but much cheaper.

I'll have to if I enjoy this too much.

The brass I am using is simply 45-70 brass already sized and trimmed.

I would just need to get the sizing process worked out here if I wanted to use 45-70 brass.

would have to consider whether or not I want to take a little off the rim of each brass, or work the barrel cut and ejector to accommodate the more plentiful brass.

Thicker necked brass would be nice.....


Prior to my morning coffee, I actually thought of "neck bushing"

Just a 0.005" thick, 0.345" I.D. loop of brass to slide over the cartridge on loading.

I'm kinda of funny when it comes to this kind of stuff.

Were it me, I'd load 3 rounds and shoot. Load those same 3 again and shoot. I'd keep going and see if it is a problem.

Point being, its not a problem unless its a problem and guessing won't tell you.

RWE, is that particualr round a BP cartridge?? Just askin'. Single shot rifles do not necessarily need reszing after firing everytime. Bullet size can be monkeyed with to an extent for loading.

Steelie, your right, of course.

I'm simply musing - the proof will be in whatever pudding I can make.

ET, its a smokeless cartridge, however, during its design and development, the round was used with compressed BP charges by the Swedes while they worked up a load.

It is meant to be low to mild pressure, regardless of powder.

Don't matter Jim, the hole at the end of the brass needs to be able to hold the bullet.

Tehn it may not require resizing after every firing. Match a bullet to the case mouth size. Easy if you shoot cast. Then bang away!!!

Will essentially swaging a bullet while firing cause any concerns to look out for?

i.e., if I put a 0.338 OD cast bullet into a 0.323 groove diameter barrel - what are my implications for accuracy, pressure, and fouling?

Can I go hard cast, or a softer mix?

.338 is the I.D. of a fired case? What MV range are you in?

I have a drilling in 8x58R Sauer that is giving me fits fot the same reason, and brass is almost $3.00 apiece. Although I haven't measured anything, the expanded neck is much larger than the bullet and the die resizes excessively, resulting in split cases on the second or third firing (if I am lucky), even when I anneal the brass every time.

I am starting to think about using a dab of epoxy to hold the bullet in an unsized case.

Don't know yet, but that would be the theoretical if the numbers pan out.

Need to do a real world test, and I need to get my bullet mould in first.

MV would be in the 2,000fps max - again, based on available info.



can I paper patch a smaller diameter bullet?

NOW your talkin' !

GTC

so let it be written.....

I'd lean towards the FB, for starters. Be SURE to cast / size that thing to a dia. that will stall in the throat reliably, and repeatedly, without calling out undue force in closing the block.

This post needs Digital Dan, and his PP savvy.

GTC

Are there any bigger cases, that could be easily necked down, and wind up with thicker necks? like the .45-90 or .475 Turnbull (a necked .50-110)?

(I ask that without having the dimensions of the 8x58R available)

If the OP thinks it might work, I could donate a few .45-90, or .475 Turnbull cases.

I've never reformed enough brass of substantial dimensions in the neck to know how much the neck thickness may increase when it is downsized in diameter.

My guess would be that the neck would simply lengthen and retain thickness, although I'm not a metallurgist.

Unless the consensus based on experience says it won't work, I'll try anything if for no other reason then to add knowledge to the collective

Nor have I ever tried it with a case in that class.

I have occasionally made .300 Savage brass from the longer .308 cases, and it did reduce neck clearance, but that may have been a fluke of the .308 case design.

In a word, no.

This brings back the memory of Ken Howell's words in the big blue book about heroic actions and the value therein of forming brass into new cases. Question boils down to where you are, where you want to be and is it worth the trouble?

Sizing a case will result in somewhat thicker necks and that is the reason neck reamers are out there for the loons amongst us. To what degree, I would not speculate. I would think that reaching for a neck wall .007" (total .014") increase is a bit of a stretch. That leads to what basic brass is out there that might get you into the ballpark. I dunno.

One can paper patch a bullet to increase diameter outside of norms, but I'd have to question the likelihood of that leading to a successful conclusion with the scenario due to throat geometry likely incompatible with that application. One way to properly evaluate that is a hammer cast of the chamber/throat area, at which point you will have a very good idea of the dims you are dealing with. There is an excellent tutorial on that process here:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?218414-FYI-This-is-how-I-do-a-pound-cast

Another idea which may have merit is to have some custom cases made. Sometime back Rocky Mountain Cartridges in Cody, WY was a good place for that exercise. The business was sold and I have no idea where it is at present, or if it is still in business.

Best of luck regardless,

Dan

Now here is where ignorance rears its ugly head. I have read many posts of Greg's incredible work, so I will ask a really dumb question:

Can the chamber be sleeved in the throat area?

Rebarrel or rebore it.

Dunno I'd call that a dumb question myself, but would imagine it implies questions and solutions only a machinist can address.

Blasphemy.

What type of die are you using to resize the cases?

Common sense. Yeah, that might be blasphemous.

The only cartridge drawing I've found for an 8x58R is in Dr. Howell's book, and it's for the Sauer version, which is a lot skinnier than a .45-70 base dimension

If one had 50 or 100 barrels to do, the cost of the tooling might be amortized.

...as a one off, I'd not touch that idea, though.

GTC

I'll do it.

I've got a Dremel and I know how to use it.

I've had some experience with reloading the Swede rolling blocks that were rebarreled to the 8x58 Rimmed Danish (8x58RD) cartridge. Ingwe and ET may recall my having at the TN hog soiree last March, and perforating a piggie.

Here's a cartridge drawing (Dimensions are in millimeters. Sorry):
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I don't have a chamber drawing on file. Maybe later.

Yes, the chamber neck is considerably larger than usual on modern rifles. Outside neck diameter of my loaded rounds is about 0.348 inches; for fired cases it is 0.365 inches. This means the brass is being worked a lot with each loading.

I use Prvi Partizan 8x56R Hungarian Mannlicher brass from Grafs; it's pretty tough and a lot cheaper at 65 cents than the brass sold by custom makers. I generally get at least a dozen reloads before neck splits start to appear.

(Unfortunately Graf's is sold out. RWE, send me a PM if your brass is used up before Grafs gets another shipment of 8x56R.)

The neck being short by 2mm doesn't seem to matter a lot. I fireform the 8x56R cases with Cream of Wheat and 6 grains of Red Dot.

I have neck sized only so far. Lee 8mm Lebel dies work for neck sizing and for seating. The die can size the entire neck length without touching the case body. I size without using the decapping-neck expanding stem, and then use a Lyman 8mm M-die to expand necks and flare them just enough to take a cast bullet.

I've previously posted the photo below showing the RB-slain swine. The case I used was on its 23rd reload; it split firing the pig bullet.

--Bob
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Bob, I recall that rifle, and your wonderful long rifle, too.

The .50-110 case is out, too big at the base. The .45-90 is long enough and the right base dimension. The rim would need a little work. But that probably won't fix the excess neck clearance. If I had one handy I'd be tempted to cut a 3 1/4" basic case to length, and check the brass wall thickness. Even if it's right it won't be an easy case forming job.

Good grief gravy!


The hungarian was on my list of brass options.

I may also do DD's hammer cast, time permitting on Thursday - my only evening this week without a church or school obligation.

Bullshooter, if you don't mind, what bullet and load were you using for the pork critter?

What's the inlay on the stock?

Using 8x56R Austro-Hungarian Mannlicher brass seems the easiest solution to the problem of brass availability. There are two, possibly three negatives to using it. As already noted, it's 2mm short.

The 8x56R case also is a bit smaller in diameter than the 8x58RD case at the head just in front of the rim. When fired in the RB, this can often result in asymmetrical unsightly bulge in front of the web. It's harmless, but unattractive. So, when fireforming, it is usual to wrap a strip of thin tape around the case just in front of the rim. This will center the case in the chamber. When fired, the case will bulge slightly, but equally all around. The tape should be about 1/8" wide. The tape is discarded after fireforming.

Another possible problem is the shoulder of the 8x56R may be just a smidge too large in diameter for the Swede chamber. Here's a drawing of the 8x56R Austrian cartridge:
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In theory, a max 8x56R cartridge may not fit in a min 8x58RD chamber. For a gunboards discussion of this possibility, I made a drawing, showing where the interference might occur:
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However, new 8x56R cases have dropped right into the chamber in my trials with four different Swedes, requiring no pressure to seat the rim fully into the chamber. I suspect the Swede chambers were usually generously reamed.

A comparison of rim diameters of the two cases shows the 8x56R to be slightly less than the 8x58RD, by about 0.15mm. This would only make a difference in fit of the extractor, and I've had no problems with any of the Swedes I've used.

The Swede RB chambers vary a bit, and cases fired in one RB may be too large to fit in another one.

45-90 brass can be formed to 8x58RD, but that requires a full length die along with rim turning, annealing, and liberal applications of Imperial Sizing Wax. 45-70 brass will likewise form, but apparently comes out 4mm short. I think Buffalo stretches their 45-70 brass somehow, which thins it, and produces neck failures earlier.

Some Swede RB shooters have used 7.62x54R Russian cases, fireforming to fit. The resulting brass is still shorter than cases formed from the 8x56R. The advantage is ready availability of the Russian case.

More will follow in a bit.
--Bob

I noticed the ones I received were dead on the 58mm.

How thick or thin is a standard brass neck these days?

.45 Basic stuff should get you a thicker walled case, as DD mentioned.

Me, I'd size fat to the throat as will chamber/extract and maybe see if the caster will seat without sizing, yet hold the pill.

Lotsa stuff to try, but they need tried before surgery!

right.

Of course, I just realized I fat fingered my mould and received a .321 diameter rather than the .326 I wanted to get.

Looks like I'll have more delay while I swap that out.

(I am cursing but you just don't hear it)

RWE-
Petunia Pig was done in with the following:

• Brass: 8x56R, formed from multiple firing, neck sized as described above with Lee and Lyman dies
• Primer: CCI 200
• Powder: A5744, 24.0 grains
• Bullet obtained from Montana Bullet Works: Cast gas-checked 170-grain, flat-nosed. RCBS 32-170-FN, sized 0.324". Lyman #2 alloy, heat-treated (for hunting), BHN 22. Lubed with LBT Blue. Seated with Lee 8mm Lebel seating die.
• COAL=2.665"

Chronograph velocity was about 1825 fps.

I slugged the bore at 0.3234", and ordered bullets accordingly. The load I took hunting was based on trials with five or six different commercially cast bullets and 3-4 powders. My rifle seems to be picky about bullet type and powder charge
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(The loading info above is coming via the internet and should be considered as myth pending your own investigations.)

There are warnings by "Dutchman" in various forums about using loading data for this cartridge as published in Cartridges of the World and in Shotgun News. These warnings should be heeded. (You probably already knew this.)

--Bob
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yep


I'm now trying to determine if getting the .321 mould was an accident or providence.

I slugged the barrel and had a groove diameter of .323 but forgot what the bore is, likely the .321 may be the right way to go.

Problem is this damn "job" thingy.

Working with numbers all day long, and I can't keep anything straight without my notebook...

And that's on the end table next to my 38.

4ager-
The circular disk in the buttstock of the rifle is not an inlay. It's a medallion that's been tacked onto the stock. A closeup:
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The phrase across the bottom is translated as "20th National Shooting Matches", (or "Contests" or "Competitions" or "Games", etc.). The phrase across the top translates as "Stockholm Newspaper" (or "Times" or "Gazette", or "Journal", etc.)

The medallion made the rifle really attractive, because I thought that some Swedish sharpshooter had used the rifle to win the medal, which meant that the rifle was potentially quite accurate. Wrong. After checking some forums devoted to Swedish firearms, I found the following.

In 1942 the newspaper, the largest and most influential in Sweden, decided to sponsor some sort of athletic event, and polled its readership for the type of contest. A rifle shooting contest was favored by a large margin. (This is understandable given the situation of Sweden in 1942. The Nazis had taken over its neighbors Norway and Denmark, while Finland was having multiple military difficulties of its own. The officially neutral Swedes were really interested in armed defense.)

The newspaper decided to sponsor the annual match held among Swedish shooting clubs, in which the targets are shot on the home club grounds, with either the scores or the targets mailed in and compiled. There were multiple thousands of entrants in the match. The newspaper had a special medal struck for the match, and obtained about 1000 old military rifles to which the medals were attached. The rifles were not special selections; some were chambered for the old large-caliber BP cartridge, others were the 8x58RD conversions. The rifles were given as prizes to the winning shooters.

So, my rifle did not have an accuracy pedigree. It is however in very good shape with an excellent bore, and its capabilities exceed my abilities.

I think the medallion depicts Hercules/Heracles shooting the Stymphalian birds, one of his dozen labors.

(I dunno whether a naked guy shooting was appropriate symbolism to bring to the campfire hog slaying event or not. Maybe the arrows were 0.277" in diameter.)

I suspect you're sorry you asked.
--Bob

Certainly not with the wee digit on it.

I haven't had a chance to do a chamber cast, but I made some bullets Sunday, and dropped one in, and that long 215 grain bullet slid in the bore so that the base was nearly flush with the end of the chamber cut for the neck.

Oversized neck and a deep throat.

Sounds like a porn movie.