Much of the new truck talk seems centered around Ford F150 with it's aluminum, or "High strength, military grade, aluminum alloys", as they say in the ad. Also says it "resists corrosion". Aluminum has been tried before on various parts at least, corrosion seems to have been a real issue. In areas that don't have winter road salt, maybe not so much a worry, but wondering about how it will/wont hold up in other areas? Like to hear opinions/facts from those in the know. Thanks.
Aluminum that has been anodized develops a coating of aluminum oxide on the exterior, the same stuff they make grinding wheels from. That stuff is an electrical insulator and impervious to corrosion as long as the surface remains intact. I worked with anodized aluminum extrusions for years, and found I couldn't get an electrical connection through the surface without grinding to bare metal.
It should last, just don't get the old crystal Draino anywhere near it, (sodium hydroxide, sodium nitrate, and sodium chloride with aluminum shards) or the aluminum will be damaged or dissolved.
I recall aluminum automotive radiator tanks being pitted and corroded by the saltwater atmosphere at the marina across from my shop.
Airplanes do not run in salt. Runways at airports use non sodium chloride chemicals. I would be concerned about salt, but that is already an issue with steel. I just bought a new chev. Been there and burned twice on fords.
Last year I went ahead and bought a 2014 after seeing the 2015's. I wanted an Ecoboost, and that engine & trans were unchanged for 2015.
Body corrosion is not a big problem around here. While I think the weight savings helps fuel economy around town, I don't think it buys you that much on the highway. I slightly prefer the looks of the 2014 over the 2015. The 2015 has a few more convenience doodads. The aluminum body WILL cost more to repair (and probably to insure).
Except for cost, I don't think the aluminum is a negative, but not enough to get me excited about it.
There have been concepts leaked of a 2017 Raptor, with an uprated Ecoboost engine. They look nice, and are interesting.
I'm a Ford guy, but in my years of the auto repair business, the only thing I found aluminum good for was beer cans! If they have found a way for aluminum not to corrode, then maybe. Aluminum wheels corrode after a few years and then you either demount the tires, clean wheels and reseal or put air in every week. Aluminum blocks, heads, radiators, are all junk IMO.
I'm a Ford guy, but in my years of the auto repair business, the only thing I found aluminum good for was beer cans! If they have found a way for aluminum not to corrode, then maybe. Aluminum wheels corrode after a few years and then you either demount the tires, clean wheels and reseal or put air in every week. Aluminum blocks, heads, radiators, are all junk IMO.
Thanks for replies so far all.
Topstock, this is the issue I was trying to address mostly. A long time mechanic fiend of mine said the same. He mentioned that at one time Ford used an aluminum backer plate on the rear bumper, and they had issues with that. Kind of hate buying any vehicle the first year they make major changes to things.
Airplanes do not run in salt. Runways at airports use non sodium chloride chemicals. I would be concerned about salt, but that is already an issue with steel. I just bought a new chev. Been there and burned twice on fords.
Airplanes, just like cars corrode more based on their location.
They do indeed corrode in humid, salt water proximity.
Aluminum corrosion can be treated chemically. A Cessna 172 I was wanting to buy would not pass inspection for sale because of previous salt water corrosion, and although it had been stopped, and the plane was sound, the damage history report was already in place. It follows the plane as long as it's around.
Airplanes do not run in salt. Runways at airports use non sodium chloride chemicals.
I take it you've never worked on airplanes that were based near salt water...
Exactly...the ONR sure is interested in the influence of chorides and the fatigue crack growth response of Al alloys. Otherwise I wouldn't currently be doing testing of this nature.
I'm sure I've been in the auto repair business longer than probably 95% of you. I started doing it in 1965. I do like aluminum components in engines and transmissions as well as other parts. The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. I am not a proponent of aluminum body panels at this time, repair cost and insurance. They ain't anodizing body parts on the Ford.
Aluminum bolted to dissimilar metal, add salt, and who needs a battery!
Aluminum boats rule the roost up here. Most are good to go. Occasionally someone has some stray current or is improperly zinced and the hull gets eaten.
Not long ago a guy up here with a 26' Duckworth OS, a $100+K boat that was just a few months old, and the hull was a total loss.
I don't know how it will work out for Ford, but it wouldn't scare me.
No down side that I know of. Years of messing with airplanes...
If you have a fender bender, it may cost more to fix.
buddy ownes a body shop, had one come in that got hit in the bed side, said it cost about 7500$ for parts and labor, he said he felt terrible, but he had to charge that to make anything. his advice, buy something made of steel, cause you wont like to cost to fix if it gets hit
No down side that I know of. Years of messing with airplanes...
If you have a fender bender, it may cost more to fix.
buddy ownes a body shop, had one come in that got hit in the bed side, said it cost about 7500$ for parts and labor, he said he felt terrible, but he had to charge that to make anything. his advice, buy something made of steel, cause you wont like to cost to fix if it gets hit
Well it will cost me the same, but my insurance co won't like it. Ford, Chev, and Dodge have been using aluminum hoods on trucks for a while now... I think, not positive though. Ford has for sure.
Much of the new truck talk seems centered around Ford F150 with it's aluminum, or "High strength, military grade, aluminum alloys", as they say in the ad. Also says it "resists corrosion". Aluminum has been tried before on various parts at least, corrosion seems to have been a real issue. In areas that don't have winter road salt, maybe not so much a worry, but wondering about how it will/wont hold up in other areas? Like to hear opinions/facts from those in the know. Thanks.
.........Not a corrosion expert. But regardless of frame material whether steel or aluminum, there are coatings that can be applied underneath to the frame that combat severe conditions.
The only downside that I've heard is, is that when an aluminum frame has been damaged in an accident the costs are up vs the steel frame. Secondly, most collision shops are not equipped to handle repairing aluminum frames because a completely seperate and closed off area must be used so that the aluminum material is not compromised or contaminated by any steel fragments.
Also, quite an investment by the collision shops will be needed to fix aluminum frames if they choose to. A specially equipped re-tooled for aluminum shop must be used.
All of the above per Jerry Reynolds the car pro USA guy on the AM radio that I listen to once in awhile.
I can understand why Ford now uses the aluminum frame for the F150. To lighten up the truck for better MPG. Maybe keeping the steel frame and going with an 8 spd trans and maybe re-tweeking the rear end ratio a little for lower engine RPMs might have accomplished the same MPG results while not compromising performance? Hell I don't know. Just throwing it out there.
Much of the new truck talk seems centered around Ford F150 with it's aluminum, or "High strength, military grade, aluminum alloys", as they say in the ad. Also says it "resists corrosion". Aluminum has been tried before on various parts at least, corrosion seems to have been a real issue. In areas that don't have winter road salt, maybe not so much a worry, but wondering about how it will/wont hold up in other areas? Like to hear opinions/facts from those in the know. Thanks.
.........Not a corrosion expert. But regardless of frame material whether steel or aluminum, there are coatings that can be applied underneath to the frame that combat severe conditions.
The only downside that I've heard is, is that when an aluminum frame has been damaged in an accident the costs are up vs the steel frame. Secondly, most collision shops are not equipped to handle repairing aluminum frames because a completely seperate and closed off area must be used so that the aluminum material is not compromised or contaminated by any steel fragments.
Also, quite an investment by the collision shops will be needed to fix aluminum frames if they choose to. A specially equipped re-tooled for aluminum shop must be used.
All of the above per Jerry Reynolds the car pro USA guy on the AM radio that I listen to once in awhile.
I can understand why Ford now uses the aluminum frame for the F150. To lighten up the truck for better MPG. Maybe keeping the steel frame and going with an 8 spd trans and maybe re-tweeking the rear end ratio a little for lower engine RPMs might have accomplished the same MPG results while not compromising performance? Hell I don't know. Just throwing it out there.
For the record the only thing aluminum on the new f150 is the skin, frame remains steel and it's heavier frame than the 2014.
Actually the 2015 F150 frame is 60lbs lighter than the 2014 and thinner. supposed to be made out of 10% stronger steel....Some of the new 2015 F150 owners are complaining of Door rattles From Frame flexing on rough roads. I own a 2014 no rattles and frame flexing on rough roads.
Much of the new truck talk seems centered around Ford F150 with it's aluminum, or "High strength, military grade, aluminum alloys", as they say in the ad. Also says it "resists corrosion". Aluminum has been tried before on various parts at least, corrosion seems to have been a real issue. In areas that don't have winter road salt, maybe not so much a worry, but wondering about how it will/wont hold up in other areas? Like to hear opinions/facts from those in the know. Thanks.
.........Not a corrosion expert. But regardless of frame material whether steel or aluminum, there are coatings that can be applied underneath to the frame that combat severe conditions.
The only downside that I've heard is, is that when an aluminum frame has been damaged in an accident the costs are up vs the steel frame. Secondly, most collision shops are not equipped to handle repairing aluminum frames because a completely seperate and closed off area must be used so that the aluminum material is not compromised or contaminated by any steel fragments.
Also, quite an investment by the collision shops will be needed to fix aluminum frames if they choose to. A specially equipped re-tooled for aluminum shop must be used.
All of the above per Jerry Reynolds the car pro USA guy on the AM radio that I listen to once in awhile.
I can understand why Ford now uses the aluminum frame for the F150. To lighten up the truck for better MPG. Maybe keeping the steel frame and going with an 8 spd trans and maybe re-tweeking the rear end ratio a little for lower engine RPMs might have accomplished the same MPG results while not compromising performance? Hell I don't know. Just throwing it out there.
For the record the only thing aluminum on the new f150 is the skin, frame remains steel and it's heavier frame than the 2014.
............Then Ford will start using aluminum frames for the '016 F150s?
Much of the new truck talk seems centered around Ford F150 with it's aluminum, or "High strength, military grade, aluminum alloys", as they say in the ad. Also says it "resists corrosion". Aluminum has been tried before on various parts at least, corrosion seems to have been a real issue. In areas that don't have winter road salt, maybe not so much a worry, but wondering about how it will/wont hold up in other areas? Like to hear opinions/facts from those in the know. Thanks.
.........Not a corrosion expert. But regardless of frame material whether steel or aluminum, there are coatings that can be applied underneath to the frame that combat severe conditions.
The only downside that I've heard is, is that when an aluminum frame has been damaged in an accident the costs are up vs the steel frame. Secondly, most collision shops are not equipped to handle repairing aluminum frames because a completely seperate and closed off area must be used so that the aluminum material is not compromised or contaminated by any steel fragments.
Also, quite an investment by the collision shops will be needed to fix aluminum frames if they choose to. A specially equipped re-tooled for aluminum shop must be used.
All of the above per Jerry Reynolds the car pro USA guy on the AM radio that I listen to once in awhile.
I can understand why Ford now uses the aluminum frame for the F150. To lighten up the truck for better MPG. Maybe keeping the steel frame and going with an 8 spd trans and maybe re-tweeking the rear end ratio a little for lower engine RPMs might have accomplished the same MPG results while not compromising performance? Hell I don't know. Just throwing it out there.
For the record the only thing aluminum on the new f150 is the skin, frame remains steel and it's heavier frame than the 2014.
............Then Ford will start using aluminum frames for the '016 F150s?
I think the steel vs aluminum chevrolet commercial is pretty humorous considering GM's most powerful line-up uses composites with aluminum frames. I guess the advertising gang doesn't think things through really well... or maybe they know exactly what they're doing. Introducing doubt that few will think past.
FWIW, I've done insurance quotes on a 2015 GMC and a 2015 F150 with like features and the F150 was indeed cheaper by a few dollars.
Tzone, correct. My 2004 F150 had an aluminum hood.
Opinions are like ass holes everybodys got one.....I think the new F150 is the ugliest truck on the road....That new front end is hideous. and the rear is not much better....but its made out of Aluminum.
Opinions are like ass holes everybodys got one.....I think the new F150 is the ugliest truck on the road....That new front end is hideous. and the rear is not much better....but its made out of Aluminum.
Very true about opinions, the '15 is the only body style I like, no way could buy an older one. Glad we are both happy, that's all that matters
I bought a '14 based on the $$ and the fact that the '15 is new. I know the running gear is much the same, but I stay away from new/greatly changed models for the first year or two. I'll definitely look at F-150s next time, just like all the rest, and buy the one that best fits my needs.
The 15 is nice... I just don't like the front end, maybe it will grow on me. I trade every 2 years and I will buy a Ford the next time also...I just could not pass up the deal on the 14.
I bought a '14 based on the $$ and the fact that the '15 is new. I know the running gear is much the same, but I stay away from new/greatly changed models for the first year or two. I'll definitely look at F-150s next time, just like all the rest, and buy the one that best fits my needs.
I did the same, after I looked over the new 2015 models when they arrived at my Dealer.
And I saved almost $14K off of the price of my new 2014 Platinum 4X4 SuperCrew F-150.
run al hulls in salt water for quite a few years now... take to the carwash when done, although I can't get under the poly on the bottom of the hull.
Have seen no issues so far. Been doing this a bit over 10 years now IIRC.
If that won't tell how durable aluminum is in a salt environment, nothing will.
Take one of our carrier based warplanes and remove all the corrosion mitigation measures (galvanic, surface attack, etc) from the skins and substructure and see how durable aluminum is in a maritime environment. Crevice corrosion alone would be off the charts. Certainly an extreme case but shows its use in a saline environment has to be vetted thoroughly.
Quote: Aluminum blocks, heads, radiators, are all junk IMO...
Based on?
Chevy Vega engine blocks in particular. Replaced them like bananas - in bunches. Had Vegas lined up behind the dealership waiting because we could not get replacement short blocks in fast enough. Also saw my share of aluminum radiators junked and if you overheat an aluminum head, it was scrap metal. At least cast iron heads that crack due to overheating can be repaired. Worked at a Diesel shop that specialized in repairing those. Have seen warped aluminum valve body assemblies in automatic transmissions cause a problem, but not often. Give me iron. Actually my brother-in-law says drinking from aluminum cans is not good for a person, so I may need to rescind my approval of it for beer cans
run al hulls in salt water for quite a few years now... take to the carwash when done, although I can't get under the poly on the bottom of the hull.
Have seen no issues so far. Been doing this a bit over 10 years now IIRC.
If that won't tell how durable aluminum is in a salt environment, nothing will.
Take one of our carrier based warplanes and remove all the corrosion mitigation measures (galvanic, surface attack, etc) from the skins and substructure and see how durable aluminum is in a maritime environment. Crevice corrosion alone would be off the charts. Certainly an extreme case but shows its use in a saline environment has to be vetted thoroughly.
Over 20 years in the salt, from May/June to October:
It sits at anchor except for the occasional storm when it gets pulled out. There are no significant corrosion issues with this hull yet. Stray electrical current and ‘other’ metals need to be contained.
Additionally, the Honda motor it is powered by was taken apart significantly the summer. No bolts were stripped or broken in the process. The flywheel (steel) was severely corroded where water got trapped a few years ago during a near-submersion. Also some of the aluminum in the same are (castings) showed significant pitting. The metal in these areas however were in a constant saltwater bath for over 5 years. Neither the motor nor the hull ever get rinsed except by the rain.
I believe those original Vega engines were not sleeved. Aluminum is not up to that kind of friction.
Yup, they were sleeveless. Now we're pouring the aluminum around the sleeves which are part of the core package.
The cast aluminum in those engines also had a high silicon content and the associated hard particles did not do so well at the cylinder wall. Aluminum alloys have come along way since then as noted.
I believe those original Vega engines were not sleeved. Aluminum is not up to that kind of friction.
Yup, they were sleeveless. Now we're pouring the aluminum around the sleeves which are part of the core package.
The cast aluminum in those engines also had a high silicon content and the associated hard particles did not do so well at the cylinder wall. Aluminum alloys have come along way since then as noted.
We've also learned how to increase the density of the aluminum in areas that require strength.
run al hulls in salt water for quite a few years now... take to the carwash when done, although I can't get under the poly on the bottom of the hull.
Have seen no issues so far. Been doing this a bit over 10 years now IIRC.
If that won't tell how durable aluminum is in a salt environment, nothing will.
Take one of our carrier based warplanes and remove all the corrosion mitigation measures (galvanic, surface attack, etc) from the skins and substructure and see how durable aluminum is in a maritime environment. Crevice corrosion alone would be off the charts. Certainly an extreme case but shows its use in a saline environment has to be vetted thoroughly.
Over 20 years in the salt, from May/June to October:
It sits at anchor except for the occasional storm when it gets pulled out. There are no significant corrosion issues with this hull yet. Stray electrical current and ‘other’ metals need to be contained.
Additionally, the Honda motor it is powered by was taken apart significantly the summer. No bolts were stripped or broken in the process. The flywheel (steel) was severely corroded where water got trapped a few years ago during a near-submersion. Also some of the aluminum in the same are (castings) showed significant pitting. The metal in these areas however were in a constant saltwater bath for over 5 years. Neither the motor nor the hull ever get rinsed except by the rain.
Aluminum oxide is a great corrosion mitigator and forms almost immediately when fresh aluminum is exposed. It helps aluminum watercraft immensely. Add a bunch of fasteners (of dissimilar metal) to a boat hull without any protection measures and things get interesting. Welded aluminum boats are a great thing. Again, the use of aluminum in a saline/chloride environment is not a half hazard implementation. The galvanic relationships have to be identified and one better be on the right side of the cathodic potential. And if critical stresses get added to the mix...then things start happening exponentially.
I believe those original Vega engines were not sleeved. Aluminum is not up to that kind of friction.
Yup, they were sleeveless. Now we're pouring the aluminum around the sleeves which are part of the core package.
The cast aluminum in those engines also had a high silicon content and the associated hard particles did not do so well at the cylinder wall. Aluminum alloys have come along way since then as noted.
We've also learned how to increase the density of the aluminum in areas that require strength.
The primary purpose of going to aluminum was to increase bed payload.
There is likely some minor increase in fuel economy with reduced weight in acceleration. Trucks in general have the aerodynamics of a brick and as such suffer fuel economy tremendously at higher speeds. I have managed a best of 20.5 mpg in my Tundra stuck at 55 mph (220 miles of highway on a high traffic day). At a more normal 70-75 I average 15. That's all aerodynamics. I would expect a lighter truck to do better at 55. After that CD extracts a stiff price.
Regardless, the primary purpose of aluminum was to win the Payload Wars.
I have less of an issue with the F150 AL body than I do with that 2.7l turbo engine (and transmission). Long term durability as well as performance for anyone who actually uses their pickup as a truck are big questions for me. Only time will tell.
Government test revealed in todays Dallas Morning News say the F150 extended cabs are a death trap in collision tests. They added a steel shell on the crew cabs.
Government test revealed in todays Dallas Morning News say the F150 extended cabs are a death trap in collision tests. They added a steel shell on the crew cabs.
So much for conjecture, how about some facts? Let's start with the fact that currently the new F-150 COSTS NO MORE TO INSURE than the previous generation truck.
I have less of an issue with the F150 AL body than I do with that 2.7l turbo engine (and transmission). Long term durability as well as performance for anyone who actually uses their pickup as a truck are big questions for me. Only time will tell.
Watch the video -
Then watch out for that new F-150 coming up in your rear view mirror - if it has the 2.7L twin turbo, it's gonna smoke your V8 whatever.
So much for conjecture, how about some facts? Let's start with the fact that currently the new F-150 COSTS NO MORE TO INSURE than the previous generation truck.
Government test revealed in todays Dallas Morning News say the F150 extended cabs are a death trap in collision tests. They added a steel shell on the crew cabs.
Do you have any idea how much casting technology has changed... since the '70s?
Not prezactly. I readily admit to not being a metallurgist or a mechanical engineer. However as a general observation, the trend has been to build products as cheaply as possible and then charge three prices for it. The usual end result is junk that isn't worth owning and ends up in a landfill.
Do you have any idea how much casting technology has changed... since the '70s?
Not prezactly. I readily admit to not being a metallurgist or a mechanical engineer. However as a general observation, the trend has been to build products as cheaply as possible and then charge three prices for it. The usual end result is junk that isn't worth owning and ends up in a landfill.
Topstick, It is more costly to build engines or whatever from aluminum alloy. Now as a general observation our present cars last much longer than the ones that were produced to haul dinosaurs.
Do you have any idea how much casting technology has changed... since the '70s?
Not prezactly. I readily admit to not being a metallurgist or a mechanical engineer. However as a general observation, the trend has been to build products as cheaply as possible and then charge three prices for it. The usual end result is junk that isn't worth owning and ends up in a landfill.
Topstick, It is more costly to build engines or whatever from aluminum alloy. Now as a general observation our present cars last much longer than the ones that were produced to haul dinosaurs.
But cheaper to keep pushrods in them?
Seriously, while I admire some American motors, like the Chebby 6.0 vortec, they still have a way to go to catch up to Japanese DOHC 4 valve motors. The Toyota 5.7 and the Nissan 5.6 are remarkable engines.
As for dual turbos on small engines, it's all about boost. Which isn't easy on a motor. American manufacturers need to pick up their game.
We've been working on a four valve per cylinder DOHC all aluminum V-6 for a few years now. This being a Gen-5 engine, the original engine (Gen-1) began production in 2004.
People have been complaining forever that trucks rust to fast. Now we have one made of aluminum and everyone is complaining about it before it has even been out for a year. New vehicles last longer now a fact. The average age of vehicles on the road is now 11.5 years per article I just read. People are keeping them longer and they are lasting longer. As far as Overhead Cam V8's Im pretty sure the 5.4 Ford is overhead cam and mine has 210000 on it and still going strong. My stepsons 04 Taurus is a DOHC V6 and it has 160000 and still runs well. My 98 lincoln Contintal has a DOHC 4.6 v8 140000 and still going strong. So I think one American company can make a OHC engine last. Semi's have been using aluminum in there cabs and sleepers for decades and they all seem to get along pretty good with a couple million miles on them.
The supercrew 4x4 feels downright nimble for a full sized pickup, due to the decreased weight. The 3.5L Ecoboost is a beast that will get you great fuel economy and will tow anything you ought to with a half ton with ease.
Funny how many have you owned? I know of several that have high mileage and no issue's. Just like anything there is always a few bad ones and everyone keeps talking about the bad ones while the majority of them run along just fine.
I just tried out a new f150.Decided to go ford after 4 new chevys. Went to the dealer and found one that would do. Had a few to many bells and whistles but ok. Then i drove it. Was not very impressed. The v8 was not very powerful. When you punched it down it sounded like the motor was in the passenger seat. Steering wheel would not tilt enough to be comfortable.My 2013 cheaper chevy is a nicer ride. Opinions vary and this is just mine. I will be buying another chevy. ED K
I just tried out a new f150.Decided to go ford after 4 new chevys. Went to the dealer and found one that would do. Had a few to many bells and whistles but ok. Then i drove it. Was not very impressed. The v8 was not very powerful. When you punched it down it sounded like the motor was in the passenger seat. Steering wheel would not tilt enough to be comfortable.My 2013 cheaper chevy is a nicer ride. Opinions vary and this is just mine. I will be buying another chevy. ED K
Wonder if Ford changed the tuning or programming on the '15s? Both my '12 and '14 F-150s with the 5.0 V8 feel way more powerful/stronger than any Chevy 5.3 I've driven/owned.
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