My wife and I carry Kimber 45 Ultra Carry most of the times. Sometimes its just not feasible. Especially when she is training for triathlons.

I was looking this weekend at a gun show and noticed that I can get a Kel Tec 9mm thats awful small and thin and light.

I also came back around to the mini 22 mag SA "revolvers".

I need to buy something smaller for those types of times. I'm thinking the 22 mag idea might be the best for the jogging, bike riding issues.

Any input on a small but reliable 9mm thats basically an "airweight" type of gun. I'm an accuracy freak but have to reassess-- 7 yards center of mass should be good enough, reliability would be the more important factor.

And I prefer not to go to 380 for a number of reasons. Already have one and don't want another.(though the old colt mustangs always looked sweet to me-- but dang there was one at the show for almost 600 bucks...)

Open to all opinions-- including the ones that tell me I should look at Kahr instead of Kel Tec etc...

Thanks, Jeff

The little mini revolver in 22 mag,or even 22 LR stuffed with Stingers,is all you need for what you are looking for,which is really a gun to have on you at ALL times.

If you get the 9mm,chances are,when you need it,it will be at home,or in the glove box,while the Mini Revolver will be on you,due to it's size.

True,the 9mm is the better "battle weapon",but it ain't worth [bleep] if you don't have it with you when you need it.That Mini Revolver will take all the fight out of ANY man,and quick.

WB.

Only you can decide what your needs and not wants are. The things to consider are weight, size, corrion resistance, lowest power factor acceptable, and max shooting distance. The Kel Tec .380 may well be what she needs. They're compact, light, and have a polymer frame.

I have a Rohrbaugh R9S which is lighter than the Kel-Tec P-11, (12.8 oz. vs. 14.0 oz.) and slightly smaller in all dimensions EXCEPT cost! $950 vs. $350 MSRP.
Kahr is another company that makes a small 9mm, and it falls in the $700 range.

If you and your wife are real aficionados, the Rohrbaugh is a work of art. If you are looking for firearms you can sweat on, bang around, etc., you can get TWO Kel-Tecs and a bunch of practice ammo for the cost of one R9S.

Another alternative is the North American Guardian-- .32ACP, about the same size as the Kel-Tek, but metal.

I find the Kel-Tec P11 (9mm) difficult to shoot fast and well, that loooooon trigger pull and that fact that is is vulnerable to misfeeds if not held firmly in the hand. Certainly not a firearm for a casual or infrequent shooter (the .380 version might be better in this regard, I dunno).

If I wanted to go as small as one of those .22 mini-revolvers, I'd prob'ly opt for a Kel Tec P32 instead. Somehow it seems like a whole different animal than the P11 in regards to ease of use.

The P32 will stuff most anywhere but , small as it is, will least LOOKS like a gun if drawn, important when you consider that the stats say that the mere display of a handgun often deters a crime. IMHO those mini-revolvers do not make much of a visual impression in the hand, many would take them for a toy (a few years back we had a fatal accidental shooting involving one of these because a kid THOUGHT it was a toy). Plus I'd rather have a .32 than a .22, especially given the pathetic .22 balistics out of 2"-3" barrels.

Near as I can tell though, the ultimate jogger's handguns are the Smith&Wesson Airlite scandiums: Relatively impervious to corrosion, light enough not to bounce around with the up and down motion of running, chambered in a serious caliber (.38 plusP, or even .357 if you can stand the recoil) AND big enough in the hand to be obvious to an assailant, even at a distance.

Birdwatcher

I have the Kel-Tec P3AT, and yes, I know you said you weren't interested in a .380, but it is so used to having always there, that I've actually walked out of the house with it in my backpocket and left my wallet at home. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

The .380 Speer GoldDot JHPs are just wicked. With 6 in the mag + 1 in the pipe, and the belt clip attachment (works VERY well), mine weighs 11.4 oz. Total.

I have mine in my backpocket all day, every day, and I never notice it, nor does it get noticed. About as good as it gets, IMHO, for ultra concealed carry. Which, if the Ultra Compacts are too much, is what you're looking at.

For small, thin and really light, I would go for the Kel Tek P32. I have one. The sights (if you can call them that) are difficult to use, but at the distances that this gun was meant for, they're no real problem. If you can go a bit larger, I would skip the NAA Guardians, they are thicker, and heavier and don't really offer much advantage (I have one in .380), and opt for one of the Kahr 9mm's with the Polymer frames. They are light and flat, and are much more controllable than the .40's. I have the MK9, which is the steel frame mini which is surprisingly accurate. Both my Kel Tek and Kahr have proven to be very reliable (although neither give me the warm fuzzies that my Colt Combat Elite and Gold Cup do).

The Kel Tek would be hardly noticeable in a fanny pack while running and cycleing and the Kahr for other times when the Kimbers are too large or cumbersome. Both offer flat profiles, faster reloads than a mini-revolver, and with the right loads could easily result in a not-so-good day for a bad guy.

Just my .02.

Chris

I don�t think there is a perfect solution for athletes. There are going to be trade offs no matter what. My wife used to do triathlons but now is an ultradistance runner who frequently trains alone in the mountains. Her primary concern is having the running gear and water set up correctly, and the super cool ultra running gear doesn�t come with integrated holsters. Carrying guns adds more logistical issues from her perspective. She carries a Glock 27 in a Glock plastic holster in her fanny pack with no round in the chamber. I just don�t trust something that is not on a belt getting jostled while pointing at her spinal column. If she�s up against a two legged predator, she is going to be able to get distance and cover just by turning on the afterburner and veering into the woods. If it�s a quadruped problem, she�s going to have to fight her way to her gun.

I have and like the Kel Tec P11. It does not have a hammer block safety, though, and I wouldn�t want to drop it on pavement. This is not a problem with an empty chamber. Also, mine rusts out easily unless I keep the barrel treated with graphite. I would think that a Texas triathlete would have trouble with this gun for this reason alone. I don�t know about the corrosion resistance of the .380�s.

Because bicycle training by its very nature takes place in the open in proximity to a lot of people, the empty chamber doesn�t sound like much of an option to me. I would try to find the most secure holster possible for inclusion in the gear bag, and consider a S&W Centennial model revolver with the aluminum frame (or Scandium if you want to spend the bucks to save a few more ounces).

Ditto VAnimrod and Murphy's posts.

I keep a Kel-Tec P32 in my front pocket all the time, so small and unobtrusive you forget it's there. Mine rides in a DeSantis inside the pocket holster to break up the outline. If it prints at all, mostly when I sit down, it looks like a wallet or cellphone. I weighed it recently in response to another thread and it weighs 11.5 ounces.

Also a thumbs up on the Kahr if a .32 or .380 is not acceptable. I had a Kahr PM40 - that's the Polymer Micro .40 S&W. IIRC it weighed right at 16 ounces fully loaded and would slip into a front pocket as well, although I never tried it with a holster. The .40 is a bit of a "handful" for a pistol that small, but certainly not uncontrollable. Mostly it's loud with that little short barrel.

After initial break-in - especially with the Kel-Tec you want to be sure the magazines are reliable - they gobbled up defensive hollow points like a dog eating bacon. My K-T came with two mags, one was perfect, the other would cause a hangup on the feed ramp loading the first round of a full mag. I sent it back to Kel-Tec and they replaced it without question. The replacement works perfectly.

In fast and furious firing - no sights, just raise to eye level and start blasting - I could keep a magazineful from each pistol inside a 4" square at 7 yards. In deliberate firing I could keep all shots in that 4" square at 15 yards. Both pistols printed very close to point of aim with factory ammo.

Both pistols are DAO, no safety so it's just point and shoot, same trigger pull each time. BTW, the trigger pull on each is much lighter than your typical S&W revolver. Something like a 6 to 7 pound pull, very smooth, no stacking.

I sold my Kahr as I found I carried that Kel-Tec all the time, so if what you are looking for is a tiny, always there pistol, I can endorse the Kel-Tec without reservation.

Either Kel-Tec, load it with the Speer GoldDot JHPs in either caliber, and you are in business.

Why not a 360 Smith? It's not as thin as a KelTec but packs much more punch and has wheel-gun reliability. It can be loaded up or down much easier whether you reload or buy factory. At 12 oz you don't even know it's there until you need it and then it speaks with much more authority than most similar offereings.

Jeff,
I never carry but my wife does. She has struggled through the very same thing you mention in your post. She has a Kimber Ultra carry II from the custom shop. Excellent accuracy and completely reliable but often the compact 45 is just too large for concealed carry. From there she has had a several including a Kel Tek and a Walther in 380 that were both unreliable at best. Then a S&W Police Chief 29(?) 357 that was great but too heavy. She progressed to a Ti Taurus 38+P and had it replaced by the factory twice due to mechanical failure. That was traded off to a Ti S&W 38+P ultralightweight with crimson trace laser grips. Less than 16 oz. Its not perfect and recoil is brutal with +P's but its light, compact and reliable.

I had a KelTec P32. It missed the target everytime at 15 yds and after getting right up to the target I found out that all the bullets keyholed. This was not the primary reason for the inaccuracy however. After the gun came back from the factory I had it at the range with the ammo suggested by Keltek.

Again I missed the paper every time with the entire clip at 15 yds. A friend shot it next and he is one of the best pistol shots on the team here. He missed the target everytime. Finally another member tried a clip and did hit the target once.

I just cannot aim it right as it twists in my large hand. Perhaps a woman with small hands could shoot it better. On the postive side the Keltec is very thin and light which is paramont in concealment. The Keltec is single action only with a long take up for every shot.

I carry a Beretta 21A which is a DA .22 LR. That pistol is not too heavy nor thick but it's thicker than the Keltec P32. That Beretta has no extractor and the chamber must be cleaned every time after shooting it or a round that stays in a dirty chamber will not eject. On the other hand I shoot it some and practice is good but its not all that accurate. I can keep it on the paper however most of the time.

My best gun by far is a S&W Chiefs Special Airweight but it's just a tiny bit bigger and heavier loaded. That gun is very accurate and easy to shoot.

Before you rush out of the house with a Rambo setup read and study Masaad Ayoobs writings. You don't want to shoot anybody. Best to avoid trouble in the first place.

Thanks for all the input!! Gives me a bit to think about.

I hear ya on the mindset issue on the last post too.

TX allows corrosion on everything at all times of the year.

Though I'd rather the gun be 9mm-- I think I"m leaning to the kel tec to start with and I'll compare calibers-- maybe 32 or 380 is the way to go.

Looked at the scandium 38s-- just did not see it in that gun for the issues at hand. Maybe I"m wrong.

Again thanks for the input and we'll see where we go from here. I much prefer my 45 in its fanny pack or inside the belt if its jacket weather. But my wife won't do the fanny pack thing while training so we have to go another route.

Lots of variables.

Jeff

That's how my 360PD is set up too. I love those grips even if they do add a tad bit of weight, it's still very light. I put the rubber overmolded grips on since I had the hard plastics and they were no good given the recoil these guns produce with full power loads.

Its accurate, reliable, light and brutal. Not that that matters in a carry gun. The best part is the 38 is a reliable stopping caliber. I greatly prefer any revolver over a semi for Self Defense. If I had to do a semi it would be a little Beretta. 380 minimum. Id take a 22 over most 32's. I think Beretta made a tiny 22 auto. Smaller but heavier.

I'm an odd man out. For stealth mode I carry a 45 Colt Derringer. If I had to use it, the powder burns would help demonstrate real last ditch defense. Besides a shot or 2 of 45 Colt at bad breath range would core King Kong like an apple.

lmao...

Buddy, why am I NOT surprised by your take on this... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Anyone ever see those 410 derringers. Imagine that with a buckshot and a slug! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Prolly 'cuz you think along the same lines! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> The fellas who brought up the legal probs are quite right to be thoughtful about it. Defending MYSELF would only require the derringer. DEFENDING someone else is why I have the heavy artillery. After being involve in court actions for long years, it became clear that defending someone else's life is easier to justify in the eyes of the law than defending yourself! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

A load of #4 or #6s up close and personal would leave a lasting impression, I think. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You'd have a hard time missing. You could always take the shot out and run split shot on 20# test and roll it back in. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Try splainin that one to da judge. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I bought one of the little North American .22 rimfire, 5-shot mini-revolvers right after they first came out and carried it in my pants pocket for years.

It would also fit in an empty cigarette box in my shirt pocket or it resided just as nicely in my pants pocket loaded wtih only 4 rounds with the hammer resting on the 5th. hole in the cylinder.

Now they have put a "notch" between the cylinder holes to hold the hammer where it is relativley "safe" from causing an accidental firing of the little mini-revolver.

However, my North American Mini-Revolver lost out to the newer and considerably more powerful Kel-Tec P3AT semi-automatic pistol in 9mm Short (aka "9x17" or .380 caliber). I use 90 grain Federal HI-SHOK jacketed hollow points (6+1) and carry it ALL of the time when I'm "outside" my home.

The .380 with the 90 grain Federal "HI-SHOK" hollow-point bullets in it has close to the same muzzle energy as the 158 grain bullet in the .38 Special (200 ft/lbs. vs. 230 ft/lbs.).

While I would choose a more powerful weapon/caliber with which to do "battle" (like a short-barreled 12 gauge pumpgun loaded with 000 buckshot), the purpose of my light, little .380 is to "convince" the bad guys they'd do better elsewhere than to bother me or my wife... and that they very well will end up with a 35.5 caliber (9mm) hole in their bodies if they get outta line with me or mine.

The little Kel-Tec mal-functioned at first, but after about 100 rounds, I figured out it didn't "like" certain brands of ammo like the Winchester flat-nosed soft points or the aluminum-cased Blazer ammunition. It seems to function just fine on the Federal HI-SHOK ammo as well as the MAGTECH GOLD 85 grain JHP +P ammo.

I carried the MAGTECH "hot" +P ammo in it for a while until I had the opportunity to chronograph the ammo. I was disappointed to find that while the manufacturer (MAGTECH) claimed a muzzle velocity of 1082 fps with their 85 grain +P ammo when, in fact, it only showed a chronographed muzzle velocity of 745 fps at my clubs shooting range!

And so, I went back to the 90 grain Federal HI-SHOK JHPs since they also functioned perfectly and gave a more honest muzzle velocity of close to 1,000 fps (as advertised on the ammo's box).

Of course, I've put over 300 rounds through the little pistol at this point... and it's "smoothed up" considerably from when it was new and unfired.

However, with a "Life-Time Guarantee" to the original owner... and the manufacturer based in Florida who proudly does a yoeman's job of handling any mal-functions... how can you go wrong?

Of course, EITHER ammo far out-strips the hotest .22 rimfire ammo and the bullet diameter/energy on the .380 rounds are MUCH higher.

If you're a "bad guy" looking down the barrel of either pistol... the 9mm opening in the Kel-Tec is considerably more "convincing"!!!

The Kel-Tec P3AT weights 7.3 ounces (empty) on a very sensitive scale used to weigh grams (jewelry) as well as ounces... and with 7 rounds "on board", it weighs 10.4 ounces... not bad for a 9mm short or, as we call them in the USA, a .380 calliber pistol.

As you might suspect, my little North American mini-revolver has been "retired"... for now, at least... although my wife will take it with her occasionally when she doesn't have a pocket in her slacks into which to put the Kel-Tec which she prefers.

And, "Yes", we both have our concealed carry permits from the State of Ohio.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Ron_T; Try the Speer GoldDots in the .380. I won't carry anything else.

Those little P3AT's must be popular. At the gun show a couple weeks ago I talked to the fellow I bought my P32 from and asked him if he had a P3AT. He had another P32 and a P11 9mm and said he wished he could get them. Apparently they are in high demand or short supply.

Looked at the Kahr P40 the other day, man, that is a nice small pistol. Not super compact like the PM40 but you can get your whole hand on the grip and it has about another inch of barrel. Still very slender and able to fit in a winter coat pocket very easily. Best of all it is a natural pointer for my hand.

I do love this little P32, but realize that it is a mouse gun and a "get off me" gun at best. In winter, with folks wearing heavy clothes, leather jackets and such a .40 S&W seems like a much more useful round. In summer the P32 wins out due to lighter clothes and the desire to be armed even when I'm wearing shorts and a t-shirt.


Even though it doesn't involve all rifles, does the following behavior qualify for looney status of some kind? I bought a PM40, decided I didn't need it, sold it and am now considering the purchase of another similar pistol. I do the same thing with GP-100's and Marlin 336's. I buy one, wonder why I bought it when I have other firearms that do the specific function better, sell it, then later wonder why I sold it and buy another one.

On my third GP100, all 4" .357's of course, and on my fourth or is it fifth Marlin 336 .30-30? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Jim, you just need to part with one of those GP100s, that's all. Just send her my way, she'll be welcomed in her new abode.

And, yeah, the P3ATs don't stay in the shops long.

VAnimrod...

Ok, thanx... I'll try 'em. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Why do you recommend them over the Federal HI-SHOKS?



Jim in Idaho

What Vanimrod said about the availability of Kel-Tec's P3AT... +1

They are often hard to find at the gunshops... very much in demand.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Looking for small/thin/light? Look no further than Kahr.. AND they're ultra reliable, something the Kel-Tec can't offer. The PM-9 weighs in at something like 16 oz...

Nah, still haven't wrung out the current GP-100. Wait'll I get a wild hair for a 4" M686 or something almost identical to that GP-100, then I'll let it go for a good price.

Then buy another one in a couple of years. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Oops, I just remembered something else in favor of another Kahr .40 caliber. I still have 150 rounds of Winchester white box .40 S&W ammo from when I had that PM40. Well, that seals it. Hell, with 150 rounds on the shelf I just gotta buy a gun to shoot it with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Might want to try a S&W Model 332 in .32 H&R Mag. 6 shots and about 12 ounces empty. No hammer to snag, no safety to need to remember, point & shoot. Good luck.

If a .45 is too much, I carry a .380 PPK with silvertip hollowpoints. Very concealable, good sights, a little heavier than the Keltec, though.

We had one and as much as I wanted that gun to work it just didn't like anything I fed it. Stovepipes all the time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Stetson---bummer. They're such neat little pieces, but a bad one could get you killed. Mine has only been fed hardball and Silvertips, and has not hiccupped after the first couple of mags. FWIW I polished the ramp a little with fine emery cloth, as it had some faint tool marks.

That was a big dissapointment for me being a James Bond fan. Someday I'll get a real one. I still think they are pretty slick.