Ammon Bundy’s mother, Carol Bundy asking supporters of the cause for supplies to be sent... hell they're where they wanted to be let them freeze and go hungry! Barricade and temporarily place a no fly zone over them... let them walk out on their own!
One of my gripes with government today, is that NO ONE can make a decision. If a nail gets broken careers will end. A regional level administrator or agency head should be able to handle a piss ant situation like this and maybe write a two page report when it's over. Today in this country, an order to end this wreck will probably have to come from the mouth of Obamanation, and we all know what the likelihood of that is. One has a better chance of winning the lottery than seeing this ended by midnight today. Governed by pussies we are,
One of my gripes with government today, is that NO ONE can make a decision. If a nail gets broken careers will end. A regional level administrator or agency head should be able to handle a piss ant situation like this and maybe write a two page report when it's over. Today in this country, an order to end this wreck will probably have to come from the mouth of Obamanation, and we all know what the likelihood of that is. One has a better chance of winning the lottery than seeing this ended by midnight today. Governed by pussies we are,
I'll throw my internet support behind the Hammonds... And Kudos to Ammon Bundy for bringing this to the attention of the national media...the sad thing is, that the average joe blow won't take the time to either read nor understand WHY this has all taken place...as evidenced bu the lack of support here on the "fire"....
One of my gripes with government today, is that NO ONE can make a decision. If a nail gets broken careers will end. A regional level administrator or agency head should be able to handle a piss ant situation like this and maybe write a two page report when it's over. Today in this country, an order to end this wreck will probably have to come from the mouth of Obamanation, and we all know what the likelihood of that is. One has a better chance of winning the lottery than seeing this ended by midnight today. Governed by pussies we are,
It's always harder to take positive action when you aren't holding the moral high ground.
I too appreciate Bundy for bringing this to national attention but Bundy is asking for the moon and I have trouble reconciling between what he is demanding and what is beneficial for the Hammonds.
I haven't decided whether I like the idea of the government ignoring the group at the refuge or not.
This morning that was on the local news, one of the items they wanted was more coffee creamer. I think if you are going to pull something like this takeover, you can go without creamer for your coffee.
This morning that was on the local news, one of the items they wanted was more coffee creamer. I think if you are going to pull something like this takeover, you can go without creamer for your coffee.
Real hard core anarchists! Remind me of pajama boy in cowboy hats.
Yes. Don't know a real cowboy out there anywhere that would publicly ask for creamer. If it's decaf, saccharine, and non dairy creamer, then why bother?
One of my gripes with government today, is that NO ONE can make a decision. If a nail gets broken careers will end. A regional level administrator or agency head should be able to handle a piss ant situation like this and maybe write a two page report when it's over. Today in this country, an order to end this wreck will probably have to come from the mouth of Obamanation, and we all know what the likelihood of that is. One has a better chance of winning the lottery than seeing this ended by midnight today. Governed by pussies we are,
I'll throw my internet support behind the Hammonds... And Kudos to Ammon Bundy for bringing this to the attention of the national media...the sad thing is, that the average joe blow won't take the time to either read nor understand WHY this has all taken place...as evidenced bu the lack of support here on the "fire"....
The protesters may be idiots, but at least (some of them) ain't the government that's trying to disarm us, let in more Mexicans and Rags.
Hate to give the government any credit, but kind of smart to just wait it out, let them starve, and don't do anything that would turn anyone into a martyr. Heard one of them talking about how great it will be for the whole thing to be over and get back to his family. I hope these guys realize, whether they are right or wrong, that they're all going to prison.
This morning that was on the local news, one of the items they wanted was more coffee creamer. I think if you are going to pull something like this takeover, you can go without creamer for your coffee.
Real hard core anarchists! Remind me of pajama boy in cowboy hats.
Need Bristoe!
"Pass the creamer yonder Garth", rancher pines.
"Creamer? Shute Deek, we ain't had that since Tuesdy".
"No creamer?! Blazes. Go saddle up ol' Jess, I'm goin' back Nevada way sure nuff."
If these guys want the government to engage them, they should publish an online video of them BBQing one of those endangered owls at the observatory. Then, hell would be unleashed.
Best thing the Fed's can do is block the supply road, let them run out of coffee creamer and bacon, make them walk out, and take their picture on the way.
Round them up later and prosecute as they see fit.
No need for some Waco type of outcome.
Cal,
There, I fixed it for you!
Geno
PS, they're cowboys so know how to use a bandana, shirttail, sock, whatever when the TP runs out, but according to the earlier post they need more creamer. Sheeesh.
Sooner or later the press will get tired of the "non-event" and leave.
Sooner or later the protestors will tire of it themselves, and go home.
At that point, instead of a fortified firefight in the public eye, they can take them down one at a time. And if the guy gets shot, who is going say what went on?
The community held its second public "situation" meeting last night in the high school gym again with standing room attendance. Heckling or disruptive behavior was not to be tolerated. Local law enforcement, a County Commissioner, County Judge, and our State Representative gave brief reports, and the floor opened for comment. An occupier supporter (or perhaps more correctly one of their representatives) persisted in yelling out "constitutional" asides and was escorted out by enforcement after a second warning with the police action receiving a standing ovation.
To date there is not a sealed perimeter around the occupation and folks are still free to come and go. That may change as authorities are requesting that occupier support efforts please cease. Perhaps a hint that they may be starved out. There was also mention that the sands are passing through the hour glass, possibly a hint of a resolution time line.
Visits to any part of the refuge are now being discouraged. That's a disappointment to Cookie, as there is a black doe/fawn pair on the property that she's valiantly trying to get pictures of.
Latest news is the occupiers are using Refuge equipment to rip out perimeter fencing, rifling though offices and files, and continuing to threaten and harass local officials and law enforcement. Likely they have accrued enough charges with their actions that all will be classed as felons when the dust settles. Our local county administrators intend to hand them an invoice for the additional expenses being absorbed. Presently it amounting to about $75,000 a day if support for the state, federal, and military resources are included. Property damage may add some multiples to those figures.
There's near universal agreement from the community that the group vacate now. Our schools are back in session, but in a lock down mode. All doors are locked, and public entry is solely through front central and only with an escort.
The statement with perhaps the greatest impact last night, came from a 12 year old child, near collapsing in tears as she attempted to describe her concerns. Assurances that all is fine, don't cut it for her when acquaintances including law enforcement wives and kids are vacating the community.
Plans are for our Monday evening information sessions to continue until the issue is resolved. There were about a dozen media type persons with cameras at the session, but the dished up real-time transmission big rigs were notably absent. Could be they are down south. With our short attention spans, interest has likely waned outside of the community.
It was interesting to watch the Portland TV news this AM. The community responses garnered about 10 seconds of reporter time, while an occupier interview scored about a minute.
The community held its second public "situation" meeting last night in the high school gym again with standing room attendance. Heckling or disruptive behavior was not to be tolerated. Local law enforcement, a County Commissioner, County Judge, and our State Representative gave brief reports, and the floor was opened for comment. An occupier supporter (or perhaps more correctly one of their representatives) persisted in yelling out "constitutional" asides and was escorted out by enforcement after a second warning with the police action receiving a standing ovation.
To date there is not a sealed perimeter around the occupation and folks are still free to come and go. That may change as authorities are requesting that occupier support efforts please cease. Perhaps a hint that they may be starved out. There was also mention that the sands are passing through the hour glass, possibly a hint of a resolution time line.
Visits to any part of the refuge are now being discouraged. That's a disappointment to Cookie, as there is a black doe/fawn pair on the property that she's valiantly trying to get pictures of.
Latest news is the occupiers are using Refuge equipment to rip out perimeter fencing, rifling though offices and files, and continuing to threaten and harass local officials and law enforcement. Likely they have accrued enough charges with their actions that all will be classed as felons when the dust eventually settles. Our local county administrators intend to hand them an invoice for the additional expenses being absorbed. Presently it amounting to about $75,000 a day if support for the state, federal, and military resources are included. Property damage may add some multiples to those figures.
There's near universal agreement from the community that the group should vacate now. Our schools are back in session, but in a lock down mode. All doors are locked, and public entry is solely through front central and only with an escort.
The statement with perhaps the greatest impact last night, came from a 12 year old child, near collapsing in tears as she attempted to describe her concerns. Assurances that all is fine, don't cut it for her when acquaintances including law enforcement wives and kids are vacating the community.
Plans are for our Monday evening information sessions to continue until the issue is resolved. There were about a dozen media type persons with cameras at the session, but the dished up real-time transmission big rigs were notably absent. With our short attention spans, interest has likely waned outside of the community.
Have a good one,
Nice slant. I'll ask again, gov employee? BLM cop maybe? Something smells awful each time I read your interpretation of what's going on there.
The statement with perhaps the greatest impact last night, came from a 12 year old child, near collapsing in tears as she attempted to describe her concerns. Assurances that all is fine, don't cut it for her when acquaintances including law enforcement wives and kids are vacating the community.
Not that I support what's going on at the refuge...
But, I have seen liberals use their kids in grown-up political agendas before.
It must not take much to scare some folks there. Near as I can tell, nobody has even had a gun pointed at them. Even accidentally.
Sooner or later the press will get tired of the "non-event" and leave.
Sooner or later the protestors will tire of it themselves, and go home.
At that point, instead of a fortified firefight in the public eye, they can take them down one at a time. And if the guy gets shot, who is going say what went on?
Something about the Sheriff possibly having been a BLM employee previously. I'm guessing it's not the same person, but if true adds a little something to the story.
The community held its second public "situation" meeting last night in the high school gym again with standing room attendance. Heckling or disruptive behavior was not to be tolerated. Local law enforcement, a County Commissioner, County Judge, and our State Representative gave brief reports, and the floor was opened for comment. An occupier supporter (or perhaps more correctly one of their representatives) persisted in yelling out "constitutional" asides and was escorted out by enforcement after a second warning with the police action receiving a standing ovation.
To date there is not a sealed perimeter around the occupation and folks are still free to come and go. That may change as authorities are requesting that occupier support efforts please cease. Perhaps a hint that they may be starved out. There was also mention that the sands are passing through the hour glass, possibly a hint of a resolution time line.
Visits to any part of the refuge are now being discouraged. That's a disappointment to Cookie, as there is a black doe/fawn pair on the property that she's valiantly trying to get pictures of.
Latest news is the occupiers are using Refuge equipment to rip out perimeter fencing, rifling though offices and files, and continuing to threaten and harass local officials and law enforcement. Likely they have accrued enough charges with their actions that all will be classed as felons when the dust eventually settles. Our local county administrators intend to hand them an invoice for the additional expenses being absorbed. Presently it amounting to about $75,000 a day if support for the state, federal, and military resources are included. Property damage may add some multiples to those figures.
There's near universal agreement from the community that the group should vacate now. Our schools are back in session, but in a lock down mode. All doors are locked, and public entry is solely through front central and only with an escort.
The statement with perhaps the greatest impact last night, came from a 12 year old child, near collapsing in tears as she attempted to describe her concerns. Assurances that all is fine, don't cut it for her when acquaintances including law enforcement wives and kids are vacating the community.
Plans are for our Monday evening information sessions to continue until the issue is resolved. There were about a dozen media type persons with cameras at the session, but the dished up real-time transmission big rigs were notably absent. With our short attention spans, interest has likely waned outside of the community.
Have a good one,
Nice slant. I'll ask again, gov employee? BLM cop maybe? Something smells awful each time I read your interpretation of what's going on there.
Maybe just a big azz puzzy who doesn't care if or how much the government violates the constitutional rights of others, as long as it doesn't affect or inconvenience them ?
The community held its second public "situation" meeting last night in the high school gym again with standing room attendance. Heckling or disruptive behavior was not to be tolerated. Local law enforcement, a County Commissioner, County Judge, and our State Representative gave brief reports, and the floor was opened for comment. An occupier supporter (or perhaps more correctly one of their representatives) persisted in yelling out "constitutional" asides and was escorted out by enforcement after a second warning with the police action receiving a standing ovation.
To date there is not a sealed perimeter around the occupation and folks are still free to come and go. That may change as authorities are requesting that occupier support efforts please cease. Perhaps a hint that they may be starved out. There was also mention that the sands are passing through the hour glass, possibly a hint of a resolution time line.
Visits to any part of the refuge are now being discouraged. That's a disappointment to Cookie, as there is a black doe/fawn pair on the property that she's valiantly trying to get pictures of.
Latest news is the occupiers are using Refuge equipment to rip out perimeter fencing, rifling though offices and files, and continuing to threaten and harass local officials and law enforcement. Likely they have accrued enough charges with their actions that all will be classed as felons when the dust eventually settles. Our local county administrators intend to hand them an invoice for the additional expenses being absorbed. Presently it amounting to about $75,000 a day if support for the state, federal, and military resources are included. Property damage may add some multiples to those figures.
There's near universal agreement from the community that the group should vacate now. Our schools are back in session, but in a lock down mode. All doors are locked, and public entry is solely through front central and only with an escort.
The statement with perhaps the greatest impact last night, came from a 12 year old child, near collapsing in tears as she attempted to describe her concerns. Assurances that all is fine, don't cut it for her when acquaintances including law enforcement wives and kids are vacating the community.
Plans are for our Monday evening information sessions to continue until the issue is resolved. There were about a dozen media type persons with cameras at the session, but the dished up real-time transmission big rigs were notably absent. With our short attention spans, interest has likely waned outside of the community.
Have a good one,
Nice slant. I'll ask again, gov employee? BLM cop maybe? Something smells awful each time I read your interpretation of what's going on there.
You won't read a single post from any of us that's slant-free. What you're "smelling" is a local couple who enjoys living and recreating in a beautiful county, but who's day to day tranquility is getting all fucqued up with throngs of new faces that shouldn't be there. You might not understand, since your neighborhood will never approach what Harney County offers, but if roles were reversed, I'd expect a similar tone from you.
His reports are always thoughtful and well written, and his opinions are clearly stated as his own. Calling him out makes YOU look bad, not him.
I cheer them on for standing up to the federal govt. What are any of us doing to correct what we think is wrong with this country compared to the stand they're making, risking everything?
Love 'em or hate 'em, we have the same enemy and they're doing something about it. Now the feds are going to charge them $75,000 a day? For the love of God, could someone, anyone, justify that cost in any way shape or fashion? And never mind the maliciousness behind the thought.
Come on people, don't you see what's going on here? The feds will break them one way or another. The BIG hand of the govt will wreck lives and half of you will cheer them on.
I can disagree with the logistics of the situation while seeing the need for change of the govt. I don't know if they'll succeed, but I know one thing for damn sure, the feds are going to make it hurt, for years. That right there should give all of us pause as to what we're dealing with. If the power of the feds to absolutely wreck your life doesn't scare the piss right down your leg, you're not paying attention. Or you're on the wrong side.
Todays rumors are the occupiers will hold an open community meeting this coming Friday or Saturday (depends on source) and outline their plans and or conditions for departure. Time and place yet to be determined. If still predicated on the Hammond's release, they're in for the long haul.
Be interesting to see if it's out in the sagebrush surrounded by arms all around or a warm and civil sitdown session somewhere in town.
I cheer them on for standing up to the federal govt. What are any of us doing to correct what we think is wrong with this country compared to the stand they're making, risking everything?
Love 'em or hate 'em, we have the same enemy and they're doing something about it. Now the feds are going to charge them $75,000 a day? For the love of God, could someone, anyone, justify that cost in any way shape or fashion? And never mind the maliciousness behind the thought.
Come on people, don't you see what's going on here? The feds will break them one way or another. The BIG hand of the govt will wreck lives and half of you will cheer them on.
I can disagree with the logistics of the situation while seeing the need for change of the govt. I don't know if they'll succeed, but I know one thing for damn sure, the feds are going to make it hurt, for years. That right there should give all of us pause as to what we're dealing with. If the power of the feds to absolutely wreck your life doesn't scare the piss right down your leg, you're not paying attention. Or you're on the wrong side.
Nope, not the "FEDS" a Harney county Judge:
Quote
Harney County Judge Steve Grasty said he intends to slap Ammon Bundy and his militia group with fines to the tune of $75,000 a day for their occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refu
...There's near universal agreement from the community that the group should vacate now. Our schools are back in session, but in a lock down mode. All doors are locked, and public entry is solely through front central and only with an escort.
The statement with perhaps the greatest impact last night, came from a 12 year old child, near collapsing in tears as she attempted to describe her concerns. Assurances that all is fine, don't cut it for her when acquaintances including law enforcement wives and kids are vacating the community...
Nice slant. I'll ask again, gov employee? BLM cop maybe? Something smells awful each time I read your interpretation of what's going on there.
You won't read a single post from any of us that's slant-free. What you're "smelling" is a local couple who enjoys living and recreating in a beautiful county, but who's day to day tranquility is getting all fucqued up with throngs of new faces that shouldn't be there. You might not understand, since your neighborhood will never approach what Harney County offers, but if roles were reversed, I'd expect a similar tone from you.
His reports are always thoughtful and well written, and his opinions are clearly stated as his own. Calling him out makes YOU look bad, not him.
I think I'm smart enough to read these updates with a filter if necessary. Good points on both sides. There must not be too much national coverage. I'm not totally clueless about things like this but I just haven't heard much of anything.
I think I'm smart enough to read these updates with a filter if necessary. Good points on both sides. There must not be too much national coverage. I'm not totally clueless about things like this but I just haven't heard much of anything.
I don't think the govt. & MSM WANT you to hear much about this...if the TRUTH were known too far & too wide, this type situation would happen with far more frequency.
Another case of the media being in the govts. pocket....
I think I'm smart enough to read these updates with a filter if necessary. Good points on both sides. There must not be too much national coverage. I'm not totally clueless about things like this but I just haven't heard much of anything.
I don't think the govt. & MSM WANT you to hear much about this...if the TRUTH were known too far & too wide, this type situation would happen with far more frequency.
Another case of the media being in the govts. pocket....
Just a quick question, busy morning at the shop. What are you referring to with MSM? Just curious.
This has turned into an absolute riot. Talk show host Steve Colbert gave the occupiers a bit of coverage last night (Jan 12), noting the group was short on supplies and and was soliciting support through the leader's mom. Here's the general tone:
Mom!
Really harsh up here in SE Oregon hanging out in these destitute government facilities. I don't know how anyone lives or works here. Looks like it might take us a couple more days to dispose of 21,000 square miles of previously public ground in the region, and some of the boys are getting a little impatient and bored. We're like really out there, maybe 30 miles from town and even worse, it's about 5 miles to the nearest café and bar. That being,could you gather up some things and route them up? Necessities include (and this list is real):
Love you,
Ammon
Mommm??? MOOMMMM???
Being the group's not confined to quarters, Colbert was kind enough to generate a Mapquest printout for them to the Burns Safeway. That's where we and all the ranchers from 125 miles further south go when we need things.
So, if some of you guys could help them out, maybe route over some:
blankies underwear socks foot warmers Miracle whip mayo $$$$$ hay boxer briefs shampoo and conditioner radio throw rugs aprons games wipes pads French vanilla creamer and lots of smokes and chew
That's a non smoking facility, so these are some really serious rebels we've got on our hands.
No need for personal deliveries though, as conditions are pretty rough. We've got like 12 inches of snow on the ground and it's cold. Maybe down into the mid 30's today. USPS, UPS and FedEx dash down on a daily basis, so one can ship stuff.
With my interest in history, I was going through some revolutionary war materials the other day and ran across a similar note from Colonel Jackson as he was headed toward New Orleans back in 1814. It read:
Dearest Mother:
Tough deal down here, please send powder and lead.
Love, Tom
Seems we were a different and tougher breed of cat back then.
SERIOUSLY NOW: Latest update is the occupiers have shipped in their own Judge who will arrest and imprison the local authorities and take over government affairs. They're also bringing in a Constitutional expert from Florida who will speak for 2 hours at their community meeting this coming Saturday- again at our local Fair Grounds. I hear she is from Florida, might have an Associates Degree in law, is well experienced with public land policy here in the arid west, and has had a tough time holding down a job.
She better be seriously golden tongued, as I've never met a person in my 70 yrs that can hold my attention for 2 hours while I'm perched in a metal chair.
Were it not our local community with many of my own endeavors being disrupted, I'd be laughing so hard the tears would be flowing.
Deja' vu here,....hearkening back to the "Armed to the teeth and packin' lawn chairs" bunch that swarmed about here once,... Your updates are appreciated here, and I hope you'll keep em' coming. Q: Anybody have any backround / bio on Lavoy Finicum, the "spokesman" ?
Harney County Judge Steve Grasty said he intends to slap Ammon Bundy and his militia group with fines to the tune of $75,000 a day for their occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge
Link no worky.
So how does a county judge slap a $75,000 a day bill on the protesters for occupying a federal building?
Harney County Judge Steve Grasty said he intends to slap Ammon Bundy and his militia group with fines to the tune of $75,000 a day for their occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge
Link no worky.
So how does a county judge slap a $75,000 a day bill on the protesters for occupying a federal building?
All I can say about that article is that a vengeful judge is trying to make an example out of the protesters. He arbitrarily pulled a scary number out of his azz and threw it at the wall for effect. It get's scary when the govt has the power to make sheit up as they go, and there ain't a damn thing anybody can say about it.
I'm not impressed. I seldom am when govt tries to steamroll citizens. I'd like to see the protesters "win", for the sake of bringing some humility back into an arrogant govt.
About the least helpful scenario, for freedom in America, is to see the govt "win", by ruining the protesters lives with outrageous punitive fines, or jail time. Talk about making an already over-reaching govt more bold. We definitely don't need that.
Thursday Jan 14 Just got word federal employees in the community were told to shut down mid-shift and to leave. They were urged to be observant during travels and around their homes as well. The words "creditable threat" were used in that notice, but I have no idea what stimulated the sudden change in status.
People are on edge. Normally, grocery shopping etc are relaxing and social endeavors, but unfamiliar folks wandering around in camo and such are now viewed suspiciously and given a wide berth. Same with out of state license plates, especially Idaho and Nevada.
Never an inclination to lock our doors or remove keys from rigs for over 30 years around here. We rely fairly heavily on the government sector (federal, state, and county) in our local economy. so we're concerned. The region is attractive enough that range cons, wildlife bio's, foresters, soil conservationists etc will often spend their entire careers here. A love/hate environment. The hate crowd leaves ASAP due to remoteness as we're lacking malls, theaters, or choice among 100 different eateries. The others put down roots, rely on promotions to advance, or simply value the lifestyle.
Given the occupiers are free to go and come at will, it would be relatively easy to coordinate an attack on any or all of our dispersed government compounds. Praying it does not happen, and hoping to get word on what generated the status change.
Thursday Jan 14 Just got word federal employees in the community were told to shut down mid-shift and to leave. They were urged to be observant during travels and around their homes as well. The words "creditable threat" were used in that notice, but I have no idea what stimulated the sudden change in status.
People are on edge. Normally, grocery shopping etc are relaxing and social endeavors, but unfamiliar folks wandering around in camo and such are now viewed suspiciously and given a wide berth. Same with out of state license plates, especially Idaho and Nevada.
Never an inclination to lock our doors or remove keys from rigs for over 30 years around here. We rely fairly heavily on the government sector (federal, state, and county) in our local economy. so we're concerned. The region is attractive enough that range cons, wildlife bio's, foresters, soil conservationists etc will often spend their entire careers here. A love/hate environment. The hate crowd leaves ASAP due to remoteness as we're lacking malls, theaters, or choices of 100 different eatieries. The others put down roots, rely on promotions to advance, or simply value the lifestyle.
Given the occupiers are free to go and come at will, it would be relatively easy to coordinate an attack on any or all of our dispersed government compounds. Praying it does not happen, and hoping to get word on what generated the status change.
Color we worried,
Another completely objective "update" from 1minute.
Wow, a previously unoccupied building, that I am sure still had the utilities left on. The government and the local left leaning freaks are losing their minds. Nothing violent to my knowledge has happened yet.
Wow, a previously unoccupied building, that I am sure still had the utilities left on. The government and the local left leaning freaks are losing their minds. Nothing violent to my knowledge has happened yet.
Why the .gov puts up with this [bleep] I cant imagine. If it was a bunch of greenies occupying the Wyoming Stock Growers Association building, there would be hell to pay by now. Trump was right, .gov is way too soft.
Wow! Your pussy must really be hurting. Hope you get better soon so you can come up and help those fellows out.
SERIOUS EDITING HERE: Fireball: I won't delete the above, because in a moment of weakness I did in fact lash out. There's no denying. It's obvious we've got different opinions, and yes, there's more than a trace of sarcasm in some posts. I apologize to you, but still insist I've relayed only factual info.
We have a wonderful community here where everyone waves in passing whether they're civilians, LEO's, agency personnel, or tourists. Anyone within 125 miles is considered a neighbor. Pretty easy to recognize a foreigner, as they don't wave. When that happens, we have an inclination to turn around, go back, and educate them. The majority of this community is more than ready for this event to end, and to quote Miss Lily, "that's the truthhh."
Again, I'm sorry, and if you have questions, ask them. My intent here was to route out the facts as they come in. I have neither the desire nor time to engage in a pissing match, and absolutely no interest what so ever in rumors. Also, I'm not going to sit here and engage in interactive conversation real time.
Latest in the community is the occupiers still have a session scheduled to announce plans/intentions Friday (15th) evening at 19:00. There's understandable reluctance though to offer up community facilities along with concerns about security, so place details are still foggy.
Still no info as to what the event might have been that put government out the door this morning, and don't know if they're back in station this AM.
Why the .gov puts up with this [bleep] I cant imagine. If it was a bunch of greenies occupying the Wyoming Stock Growers Association building, there would be hell to pay by now. Trump was right, .gov is way too soft.
And have another Waco??? It seems like the FEDs are allowing the occupiers a reasonable right of protest, at least for now...Whether you agree with occupiers or not, that's got to be a good thing?
And have another Waco??? It seems like the FEDs are allowing the occupiers a reasonable right of protest, at least for now...Whether you agree with occupiers or not, that's got to be a good thing?
Hey Pete, this is exactly nothing like Waco. I know it is popular to say that but that's bullshitt and you know it. Occupying government buildings is something that should not be put up with. Now we will have this sort of crap all over. Obama blinked once with Bundy 1.0. Now he is doing it again with Bundy 2.0. The liberals are going to catch on to this and you will see a whole lot more of it.
Mop these guys up and be done with it. They are bunch of charity cases that seem to looking for free chew now.
Law enforcement doesn't want to lose one of theirs, so they just wait and gather info, probably recording everything these guys say on their cell phones. Also, the longer they stay the larger their expense bill will run up. Back salaries for the workers who couldn't report to the center as well as teachers who were out of work with the schools closed. They will probably charge them govt. mark up prices for refurbishing the place with new paint , carpet, fence repair, etc.
Now days for example police chases have turned into following a perp for an hour or two keeping track of how many traffic violations they create before they finally crash into a car killing innocent people.
Not been in Dodge today as my snowblower fritzed last night and had to head to the next town for parts. Again saw lots of unfamiliar LEO's on the roads today. Some way off and tucked in just watching, and others helping stranded motorists that lost it on the ice. About 2" if packed snow/ice the whole way. Going to be a couple weeks for blower parts, so hope it doesn't pile up in the interim.
Also saw two herds of pronghorn going and coming. Maybe 5 to 600 hd in each.
Tonight's occupier meeting is pushed up to next Monday I think. No venue's in town willing to host it today.
The troops came to town in a couple of federal rigs to restock at our local mall (Safeway). One was arrested for theft when he came out and claimed the rig. Second driver was not nabbed. Likely saw the initial arrest and decided to be a bit more discrete.
Any other day a Fed plate would not be noticed here. With none working today, however, it's an eye catcher.
Attending a friend's funeral tomorrow AM, so might pick up on a few more local happenings.
Wow, a previously unoccupied building, that I am sure still had the utilities left on. The government and the local left leaning freaks are losing their minds. Nothing violent to my knowledge has happened yet.
This "town" couldn't be more isolated if it was on the moon...
French Glen has two gas pumps and that's the only game in town... and a dilapidated store.....
occupying this facility is akin to occupying a deserted light house, on an island 100 miles off shore....
at least they aren't burning, looting and robbing like the Afro Ghetto Crowd did in Ferguson and Baltimore...
leave them alone, they'll get hungry and bored and go home... besides its cold out that way this time of year...quite evident they didn't think that one thru....and there ain't no Motel 6 for them to spend the night in and get warm....
The guy that owns the store and gas pumps in town is probably enjoying the increase in business...
French Glen isn't even as big as a coffee stain on the state map...
So the local Fire Chief of many years resigned because he wasn't buying into all that fear mongering, and says he caught FBI posing as militia?
What this guy says has the ring of truth to it, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
If families are being followed around, maybe they need to find out who is doing the following? Sounds like this guy did, and didn't much care for the smell of things.
Latest rumors as I've not confirmed this: From a neighbor of our county school superintendent. She has resigned. A couple new-hire teachers that were to begin next fall announced they will not be coming.
While the community is about 90% opposed to the present situation, it's the radicals that are getting all of the coverage, and perhaps they're shaping the outside perception of the region.
Headed to a funeral shortly, and may get some more news. Was not around much yesterday, and I don't take my news from social media.
It's too bad that some of you choose to malign 1Minute. He knows whereof he speaks and is a deeply respected and long time member of the community. I own a ranch just north of Burns and know a good many great people there. It's a great place that doesn't deserve all of the grief that this situation is causing. The 30 year history of trying to run the Hammonds off their ranch, now culminated in the miscarriage of justice of the new prison sentences, is really the cause of this deal, and if nothing else maybe all of this will wake people up to the fact that congress actually needs to take control of the federal agencies that are the root of this. If ALL of the media would just leave, this thing would eventually just go away. So far no one's done anything that would justify someone on either side getting killed over.
So the local Fire Chief of many years resigned because he wasn't buying into all that fear mongering, and says he caught FBI posing as militia?
What this guy says has the ring of truth to it, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
If families are being followed around, maybe they need to find out who is doing the following? Sounds like this guy did, and didn't much care for the smell of things.
It's always interesting to see upstanding, law abiding, hard working, community minded folks that stand on the side of law enforcement rapidly change their tune once they've been given a taste of what our federal government does, wants to do or is planning on doing. This incident highlights the willingness of local LEO to do WHATEVER the Feds want. Legal or not the local sheriff is doing what the Feds tell him to do without regard for the law but certainly under the umbrella of immunity that usually comes from illegal federal action.
But police arrested Kenneth Medenbach, a 62-year-old resident of Crescent, Oregon, after he drove a vehicle owned by the US Fish and Wildlife Service to a local supermarket on Friday, the Harney County Sheriff's office said in a statement. He was charged with unauthorised use of a motor vehicle. Medenbach could not be reached for immediate comment and it was unclear if he had retained an attorney.
and it gets better, funny how your Media aint reporting whats been happening
The group, led by the sons of a Nevada rancher who with a large group of heavily armed men successfully stared down federal agents in a 2014 dispute over grazing fees, had earlier made a public call for help with supplies to cope with the winter weather, with temperatures at the reserve expected to dip below freezing in the coming days. That plea led to shipments of sex toys, glitter and nail polish, which prompted online video complaints by the occupiers.
" Protesters holding the bird sanctuary southeast of here want every county in the U.S. to start a process giving back federal land to the previous owners. They expect that process to start in Harney County with a citizens group processing deeds, according to Ryan Payne, a self-styled militiaman and a key leader of the refuge occupation that started two weeks ago. In an interview, Payne provided the most clear statement yet about what the occupiers want to achieve. They now call themselves Citizens for Constitutional Freedom."
A correction/retraction: The school superintendent resignation mentioned above is unrelated.
This probably is not true, but good for a laugh anyway. Rumored that supplies arrived at the occupier compound and included a 20 gal barrel of moisturizing hand cream worth about a grand. They're either in for the long haul, or someone has a great sense of humor.
Post funeral this AM Cookie and I did a lap round our local courthouse and phased out Lincoln Jr High school (present community command center). If there is only one person associated with each of the LEO rigs there, the occupiers are outnumbered about 4 to 1. I have no idea how many agency folks might be south of here in the field.
Nothing at all firm on an occupier sponsored meeting. Hurry up and wait, I guess.
The smear campaign is now in full swing, both here and in the media. When the govt is content with the job the media has done smearing the protesters you can expect another Waco.
sadly Fireball2 you clearly dont get it, these fella are blow in loser Ratbags, get over yaself. This aint the wild west anymore.
Blow in loser Ratbags??? Pot meet kettle.....This is STILL the United States Of America you ass wipe!!! One of these days the feds will push just a little too hard & a little too far & the good people of America will make the unrest in Ferguson Mo. look like a Mary Poppins picnic...
Maybe we could quiz that patriot/traitor Edward Snowden about this. He had access to all that agency stuff and can probably route out copies of all the federal conspiracies aimed at us lowly piss ants here in SE Oregon. I'm sure Snowden would not let something this significant slip by. Probably just hasn't had time to get it out yet.
There are about 315 million people in this country. Given a Bell shaped curve, we have liberals and conservatives on either side, probably a huge (that's a Trump term) silent majority in the middle, and a few radical squirrels out in those tiny 1% zones on each end. Right or wrong, even they have a right to an opinion and free speech. Don't know where I fit really, but I don't stay awake at night with an Uzi by my side waiting for the government to crash through my door.
If I had the concerns that several voice here, I'd move out to maybe Russia or some eastern Africa nation where I'd feel safe.
Yes, our government is not perfect, but we still seem to have half the world trying to move here. Tough as it is, I think I'll stay.
Still no firm news on where/when the occupiers might have their town hall meeting and hand over our 7,000 square miles of public land. With about 7,000 of us here, between Cookie and I we'll be good for maybe 2 1/2 sections and I want south end Refuge ground. Maybe YouTube, Facebook, or Skype will host the meeting.
If they give it back to previous owners, we'll still have public land because the bulk of it was never proven up on. If the Refuge goes back to its prior owner, the Swift Meat Packing Company is a Brazilian deal, and a bunch of foreigners will be moving in. Sadly I don't do Portuguese, and I'm too old to learn.
Maybe we could quiz that patriot/traitor Edward Snowden about this. He had access to all that agency stuff and can probably route out copies of all the federal conspiracies aimed at us lowly piss ants here in SE Oregon. I'm sure Snowden would not let something this significant slip by. Probably just hasn't had time to get it out yet.
There are about 315 million people in this country. Given a Bell shaped curve, we have liberals and conservatives on either side, probably a huge (that's a Trump term) silent majority in the middle, and a few radical squirrels out in those tiny 1% zones on each end. Right or wrong, even they have a right to an opinion and free speech. Don't know where I fit really, but I don't stay awake at night with an Uzi by my side waiting for the government to crash through my door.
If I had the concerns that several voice here, I'd move out to maybe Russia or some eastern Africa nation where I'd feel safe.
Yes, our government is not perfect, but we still seem to have half the world trying to move here. Tough as it is, I think I'll stay.
Still no firm news on where/when the occupiers might have their town hall meeting and hand over our 7,000 square miles of public land. With about 7,000 of us here, between Cookie and I we'll be good for maybe 2 1/2 sections and I want south end Refuge ground. Maybe YouTube, Facebook, or Skype will host the meeting.
If they give it back to previous owners, we'll still have public land because the bulk of it was never proven up on. If the Refuge goes back to its prior owner, the Swift Meat Packing Company is a Brazilian deal, and a bunch of foreigners will be moving in. Sadly I don't do Portuguese, and I'm too old to learn.
Have a good one,
1 min,
Now that right there is pretty funny.
Do I get a small share, maybe a couple of acres? My wife is an Oregon resident now. More importantly, Cristoforo Colombo "discovered" this place, the whole of it I mean, and even though he was working for the Spaniards he was Italian. So's my granpa. Therefor, I think I have claim to just enough to provide for a small dog track for my whippets. Maybe they can catch some rabbits too, keep the population of them from eating all the grass all those cows are gonna need.
Thanks for the updates. Can only imagine what you folks are going through, having lived in some areas a bit similar to Burns.
The poor dears there must be in fear for their very lives! I'm sure glad they took the precaution of closing guv agencies and sending everyone home. Oh, and the schools. Nice touch. Especially since the protesters are so far out in the desert. Don't forget to bill the protesters $75,000 a day for damages. Nice touch there too. Go Big Government! Down with the little man!
Hey, you never know, a stray bullet from 30 miles away could fall on Burns or something. Oh wait, they're not shooting. Or burning. Or flipping cars. Or tearing down buildings. But forget about that, it's still scary!
If I was in Burns and afraid it'd be the undercover FBI agents that did it for me. When the guv moves in, be afraid, very afraid.
Remember Ruby Ridge, or Waco, much? When the press is done with the smear campaign, the guv will clean this up. Got to get all the chicken littles on the same page first.
All the hype kinda reminds me of the recent "open carry" doomsday predictions about Texas...
Each day passes and nothing evil to report. No school kids or pregnant mothers were shot. No gunfights on Main Street.
As far as the protestors demands, I see a very definite need to change the management tactics. To deed public land to someone else is far reaching to say the least. If the problem is management, then there needs to be some intelligent discourse about how to fix the problem.
Ultimatums are not usually very productive in solving the base issue.
I've been hearing about Waco ever since this began. Waco cultists burned themselves up in their own buildings. These guys are not suicidal cultists are they? And these are our buildings, belonging to we the people. If they are suicidal, they should be starved out of our buildings before they have THEIR MOMENT OF DRAMA.
If those guys wanted land, couldn't they just go buy some? I mean, if you're renting a house and the owner says he's not renewing the lease, then you have to leave, right? Isn't that that same thing as renting land for grazing?
Dunno, but if some idiot decided to occupy the public land that many of us hunt on, I'd bet the out cry might be different.
Latest on the Portland News this AM. The occupiers discovered a few trail cams likely along the entrance exit routes and have removed them. Seems the surveillance of innocent Harney County residents just minding their own business has gone too far. If they come to town to grocery up, they'll also find a few around each of our lighted intersections.
No surprise here. In early November 30 miles from HQ on the extreme south end of the refuge there were several trail cams out. Some even bearing nice 8 1/2 x 11 inch signs asking passersby to smile, as we were on candid camera.
The refuge is a wildlife paradise, and often is the victim of poachers that simply must have that trophy buck. They are woefully short of staff and there's no way they can patrol all of the remote and distant access points. Around 18 Nov or so, a party of photographers discovered a headless buck tossed into the Blitzen River on the south end. Cookie and I usually find one two such instances each fall. A few trail cams is an excellent, inexpensive, and less intrusive method for monitoring use than having to pass through tended gates.
I also like that much better than a constant parade of enforcement traffic that we see in the parks and campgrounds around Metro Portland.
Wanted to go down today in pursuit of the black deer, but we're plagued with the ever present Oregon gray ceiling. Maybe tomorrow.
Have a good one,
This one was captured about 40 yds from the occupied HQ buildings. Hope he's still around and unscathed.
"Like the Bundy brothers now illegally occupying the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge near Burns, Oregon, I’m a lifelong rural Westerner, and I believe that if I were to talk with them, we’d most likely find we have a lot in common.
Our lives were shaped by the land, for instance. I was born in Nevada, and I grew up and now live in southwestern Idaho. Though my family worked as carpenters, we lived on small farms where we raised cows and grew hay for the winter. Like the Bundys, I come from hard-working, blue-collar folks.
My family taught me to love the land, especially the Northwest’s high desert. I’ve hunted the uplands of eastern Oregon. Much of that country is open range where cattle graze. Thanks to ranchers, I’ve watered my dogs at troughs where ranchers had enhanced a spring, benefitting both cattle and wildlife.
I imagine that if the Bundys and I sat down over coffee, we’d start trading stories about our early years. Pretty quickly, though, our differences would emerge. They’d insist that taking over a wildlife refuge is speaking for “the people” — Westerners frustrated by the federal government. I couldn’t let that stand.
I’d respond by saying: “That wildlife refuge you’re occupying belongs to me and to 320 million other Americans. You are trespassing, taking advantage of the hospitality and tolerance of the rest of the American people. You are abusing the rights you so readily invoke by occupying the refuge indefinitely.”
I would remind them that they are free to stay a maximum of 14 days, because that is the camping limit in most places, and it was put in place so that everyone can share the land.
If they let me continue, I’d suggest they go home and read Civil Disobedience by Henry David Thoreau and perhaps brush up on their history about Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King Jr. Parks didn’t wave guns around and threaten to kill people on the bus.
Then I’d say: “You are carrying firearms and threatening to commit violence if you don’t get your way. You bluster, trying to provoke a response, all the while using the media to protect you and further your cause.
“You are abusing your rights as an American. I have heard nothing from you about your responsibilities, only demands about what you want, though ultimately, what you want is to control a resource that belongs to me and to every other American. Public lands are our birthright, and you have no right to commandeer them for yourself.
“Frankly, I don’t want my land — which includes all the federal land in the West — turned over to people who behave like you. I want to be free to hunt, hike, ride my horse or mountain bike, to picnic and to camp on the nation’s vast tracts of federal ground, and I don’t want to have to ask for your permission.
“Furthermore, your family owes me and 320 million of my fellow Americans more than a million dollars in back grazing fees for using public land without paying your fair share.
“When I cut firewood on nearby Forest Service land, I purchase my 10-cord personal use permit. I pay my camping fees. I buy my hunting license. I pay fees because they are used to improve recreation opportunities for everyone.
“So I want you to go home and start paying me and your fellow citizens what you owe us. That’s what good citizens and neighbors do.”
— Chris Dempsey is a contributor to Writers on the Range, an opinion service of High Country News. He lives in Idaho.
I cant think of a single similar incident where armed thugs were allowed to occupy public properties, particularly buildings like this. How timid can the fed get?
Whats up with the Bundys? How do they get such special treatment?
Frankly, it really wouldn't bother me all that much. Show some balls. This is no way to run a country. Every frickin [bleep] with a personal problem with the fed is going to want to do the same thing. These guys are in the wrong place at the wrong time for the wrong reason. Give them one chance to march their bare naked asses into a paddy wagon or face REAL consequences. They want attention? Letem be martyrs. They should put towels on their heads instead of cowboy hats.
Frankly, it really wouldn't bother me all that much. Show some balls. This is no way to run a country. Every frickin [bleep] with a personal problem with the fed is going to want to do the same thing. These guys are in the wrong place at the wrong time for the wrong reason. Give them one chance to march their bare naked asses into a paddy wagon or face REAL consequences. They want attention? Letem be martyrs. They should put towels on their heads instead of cowboy hats.
Why don't you run up there and start the shooting yourself?
Chicken Littles to the left please! All Chicken Littles need to file to the left!!!
I bet these protesters, while in their normal course of life and going about their business, just decided to interrupt their lives, put everything on the line, and risk it all so they could get some attention in the media. I'm sure they were just attention whores and have nothing better to do than occupy an empty federal building for kicks.
Hopefully when the guv comes for you, they won't bother to show up in your defense and you all can rot in jail.
Latest on the Portland News this AM. The occupiers discovered a few trail cams likely along the entrance exit routes and have removed them. Seems the surveillance of innocent Harney County residents just minding their own business has gone too far. If they come to town to grocery up, they'll also find a few around each of our lighted intersections.
No surprise here. In early November 30 miles from HQ on the extreme south end of the refuge there were several trail cams out. Some even bearing nice 8 1/2 x 11 inch signs asking passersby to smile, as we were on candid camera.
The refuge is a wildlife paradise, and often is the victim of poachers that simply must have that trophy buck. They are woefully short of staff and there's no way they can patrol all of the remote and distant access points. Around 18 Nov or so, a party of photographers discovered a headless buck tossed into the Blitzen River on the south end. Cookie and I usually find one two such instances each fall. A few trail cams is an excellent, inexpensive, and less intrusive method for monitoring use than having to pass through tended gates.
I also like that much better than a constant parade of enforcement traffic that we see in the parks and campgrounds around Metro Portland.
Wanted to go down today in pursuit of the black deer, but we're plagued with the ever present Oregon gray ceiling. Maybe tomorrow.
Have a good one,
This one was captured about 40 yds from the occupied HQ buildings. Hope he's still around and unscathed.
Great animal to keep in the gene pool! This is one purpose of the refuge system.
Chicken Littles to the left please! All Chicken Littles need to file to the left!!!
I bet these protesters, while in their normal course of life and going about their business, just decided to interrupt their lives, put everything on the line, and risk it all so they could get some attention in the media. I'm sure they were just attention whores and have nothing better to do than occupy an empty federal building for kicks.
Hopefully when the guv comes for you, they won't bother to show up in your defense and you all can rot in jail.
Which guard shift are you working at the "Stand Off"?
Latest on the Portland News this AM. The occupiers discovered a few trail cams likely along the entrance exit routes and have removed them. Seems the surveillance of innocent Harney County residents just minding their own business has gone too far. If they come to town to grocery up, they'll also find a few around each of our lighted intersections.
No surprise here. In early November 30 miles from HQ on the extreme south end of the refuge there were several trail cams out. Some even bearing nice 8 1/2 x 11 inch signs asking passersby to smile, as we were on candid camera.
The refuge is a wildlife paradise, and often is the victim of poachers that simply must have that trophy buck. They are woefully short of staff and there's no way they can patrol all of the remote and distant access points. Around 18 Nov or so, a party of photographers discovered a headless buck tossed into the Blitzen River on the south end. Cookie and I usually find one two such instances each fall. A few trail cams is an excellent, inexpensive, and less intrusive method for monitoring use than having to pass through tended gates.
I also like that much better than a constant parade of enforcement traffic that we see in the parks and campgrounds around Metro Portland.
Wanted to go down today in pursuit of the black deer, but we're plagued with the ever present Oregon gray ceiling. Maybe tomorrow.
Have a good one,
This one was captured about 40 yds from the occupied HQ buildings. Hope he's still around and unscathed.
Great animal to keep in the gene pool! This is one purpose of the refuge system.
luv2,
Hope all is well with you and yours there in NV.
Without being a deer biologist/geneticist, I'd personally have a hard time saying we shouldn't leave this one in the gene pool. I certainly don't know what other genes or traits that might be associated with the melanism. Could be that some of those traits might be beneficial to have in the population somewhere down the line. Even if not, it doesn't appear to be hurting the herd or survival of the lineage.
Somewhat of a case in point. For many years it was a practice in salmon hatcheries to take large, early fish for spawning. It makes sense from a "business" standpoint. If one needs 600K eggs and can get them from 1000 large fish at 6K per female with less time involved in handling smaller fish for fewer eggs per fish, doesn't that make "economic" sense? And if one can get them from early fish in Oct and get all the eggs incubating, put up the spawning equipment for the year, and get back to regular duties, perhaps let the seasonal helpers go earlier, then why wait until late Nov or Dec to get fish for your needs?
Turns out doing it that way didn't always turn out well for the resource. Seems some years the progeny of smaller fish have better survival due to fewer "groceries" in the feeding areas. Smaller, slower growing fish actually had an advantage over their faster growing, larger cousins.
And later returning fish work out well during drought years when there's not much water in the rivers and the water temps are too high in the early part of the season.
Spawn only large, early fish and you're removing some of the (hated word around here sometimes) diversity. Necessary for the survival of the species? Well perhaps beneficial is a better term. That diversity is generally not seen as harmful at least.
Geno
PS, how's Rosie doing. Growing into a fine pup I hope.
PPS, lest anyone think I'm just a "bambi" lover, if it was legal and I was in possession of the proper tag, I'd have no problem shooting a melanistic animal, a piebald, leucistic, or albino. Folks I knew in PA would never shoot a "white" deer. Given the chance, I would.
Chicken Littles to the left please! All Chicken Littles need to file to the left!!!
I bet these protesters, while in their normal course of life and going about their business, just decided to interrupt their lives, put everything on the line, and risk it all so they could get some attention in the media. I'm sure they were just attention whores and have nothing better to do than occupy an empty federal building for kicks.
Hopefully when the guv comes for you, they won't bother to show up in your defense and you all can rot in jail.
Fb2,
Are you folks getting the rain like we are up here? Starting to get boring for me. Record or near record December in much of the area around here. I hope you're enjoying it while it lasts.
As to the empty building, I do believe it was only empty because it was a weekend and a holiday weekend at that. If the refuge buildings they are occupying were only meant to be occupied while "empty" why didn't they leave after the weekend when folks were supposed to get back to their jobs? (mmmmm, why did the occupiers not take over the buildings/refuge on a day when employees were present? Afraid of "kidnapping/false imprisonment charges? Armed insurrection charges?)
The impact they have had on the local economy has more than made their point. Most anyone who is aware of what's going on around them in the world now knows there are problems with the management of public lands in the West. Those who don't know probably don't care and are lost in their own little worlds.
Perhaps if they had, God Forbid, taken over the refuge complex unarmed, their point would have been made, they would have been "pepper sprayed" like this:
and they too could have been afforded the opportunity to tell the evil .gov employees about using "chemical weapons" on US citizens as the young person did at about 5:25 or so in that video.
Maybe the Occupiers could have then sued and been awarded $1 each, like the folks who were involved in the suit.
I do believe everyone has a responsibility to speak up when they see things going the wrong way. Everyone will also have to take what comes from whatever method they choose to express themselves with.
For now, the folks in the govt buildings are impeding the operations of a government entity, just as a group of "greenies" would be doing if stopping a Forest Service road from going in. (And we all know how folks around this 'fire think of those folks ) There will be consequences to be paid.
Their point of view will have been voiced and heard, at least to those who are listening.
Geno, an incredible amount of rain for us as well.
Yeah, if they were unarmed out there on the refuge they would have been rounded up and thrown in jail. End of story.
Guns make us citizens with a voice. No guns and we're in prison for crossing the guv. I fear Americans won't figure that little tidbit out until it's too late.
What if the Hammond's had told the authorities in no uncertain terms they would most certainly not be returning to prison to serve a second term for the same "crime"? And they had guns and the determination to give their stand weight? What if more people agreed with them and had agreed to stand with them? And those people had guns. Then what?
But, the Hammond"s gave up and went to prison twice for the same conviction. I wish they hadn't.
Geno, an incredible amount of rain for us as well.
Yeah, if they were unarmed out there on the refuge they would have been rounded up and thrown in jail. End of story.
Guns make us citizens with a voice. No guns and we're in prison for crossing the guv. I fear Americans won't figure that little tidbit out until it's too late.
What if the Hammond's had told the authorities in no uncertain terms they would most certainly not be returning to prison to serve a second term for the same "crime"? And they had guns and the determination to give their stand weight? What if more people agreed with them and had agreed to stand with them? And those people had guns. Then what?
But, the Hammond"s gave up and went to prison twice for the same conviction. I wish they hadn't.
fb,
I'm not sure of the "legality" of the extended sentences. Sorta sounds shady to me, but then again, on technical legal terms, they weren't really tried twice for the same crime. Just had their terms in the joint "extended". I sure as hell would have done everything I could have to find the resources to fight it. Perhaps not armed though, as I would do my wife no good to be shot by the "authorities" (well, outside of the insurance money that is, she might like that! )
The Hammonds seem to have accepted their fate though. I don't know why outsiders had to come into the area and take over a completely (or mostly so) unrelated piece of property than the one burned that started the whole mess.
No, I don't think the fed prosecutors/judge were right in charging/sentencing them under "terrorism" laws. I also do not believe the Hammonds had the "right" to burn property they were leasing either, without express consent, whether they have been doing it to improve range land for generations or not. I can't make "improvements" to the house/property I am leasing just because I feel like it, and should I be doing something to my own property and cause damage to the leased property I would be held responsible.
I don't want/need others coming to my aid for that kind of thing either, armed, and having it morph into something even more dangerous.
Geno
PS, just checked the gauge for the past two days, another 1.44". At least the springs will run this summer, with any luck.
PPS, Had they been "rounded up" as you say, it probably would not have been the end of the story, with good representation they might have had a case to go as far as a US District Court and maybe even the Supreme. Then again, they might just be roomin' with the Aryan Brotherhood in a federal pen. Who knows?
Geno, 2 1/2" of rain here since last night and coming down hard at times. Supposed to let up tonight. Just went down to see my buddy with cancer and got soaked going from the car to the house. Checked the ditch I dug for him with the excavator last summer and made sure it wasn't running over the banks. Wow what a torrent.
Rosie is a terror!! She has such a great confirmation and strength, and such a strong will, mated with a doggy IQ of 175 that she is a handful. She will make a great bird dog from all present indications, and she has never met a stranger.
All I need to do right now is file her teeth down.
Likely won't have anything new for at least a couple days. Our regularly scheduled Monday evening community meeting has been put off until Tuesday. Gives us time to reflect on ML King I guess. No word either on Federal folks getting back to anything near normal.
Nothing on a venue or scheduling for the occupiers session that was supposed to happen tomorrow either.
The group, led by the sons of a Nevada rancher who with a large group of heavily armed men successfully stared down federal agents in a 2014 dispute over grazing fees, had earlier made a public call for help with supplies to cope with the winter weather, with temperatures at the reserve expected to dip below freezing in the coming days.
That plea led to shipments of sex toys, glitter and nail polish, which prompted online video complaints by the occupiers.
A solution to the issue of those not paying fees, might be to open season on beef. I could handle a nice chubby yearling with ease, and I think they'd eat pretty well.
They have 2 ranchers that will sign up. That is a throng of support from across the nation!
Heard a radio report, this AM, and the occupier that slipped off the road in his van yesterday and had to be towed was unlicensed. Man! He's sure a real radical, and probably someone of considerable means. Given the accident location, I'm fairly certain he was leaving Dodge, as it's not on the route one would take if coming in to resupply.
Cookie and I spent about 5 hours on the south half of the refuge today and saw only a pair of rigs traveling together. Both looked as though they had backed up to a single-wide, thrown everything in including the garbage, and were headed south. Hopefully to Nevada.
Did not find the black deer we were looking for. Barn, long eared, and great horned owls, coyotes, regular mule deer, hawks, eagles, golden eyes, buffleheads, hooded mergansers, honkers, and swans. Snow is pretty well gone down there, while we have about 18 inches here in town.
Hopefully some news on this evening's occupier meeting and their legal beagle lecture will come out tomorrow morning. Their venue ended up being about 30 miles out.
Locally the feeling is transitioning from a "go home" attitude to a "get them out of there" tone.
The bulk of the Refuge was purchased from the Swift Meat Packing Company back in the 1930's. The Refuge is mostly marsh or meadows flooded by spring run off.
BLM lands are primarily arid, rocky, low production ground that no one wanted back in the homestead days or lands that homesteaders never proved up on (i.e. they simply could not make it). A small amount is high elevation having no growing season of consequence.
Out on our great plains east of the Rockies, herbage production can be measured in tons per acre. Out here it might range between 1000 (some of the best) to as little as 125 lbs per acre with the bulk of our precip coming in the winter. Average rangeland herbage production is about 250 lbs per acre. It's suitable for grazing and recreation, but very little could ever be dry land farmed. Most of our good ground has access to perennial surface water and was proven up early on (i.e our deeded lands).
With deep soils and pivot systems, we we can do 2 to maybe 3 cuttings of alfalfa annually. Potential frost in any month of the year pretty much takes out traditioal row crops and grains.
The bulk of the Refuge was purchased from the Swift Meat Packing Company back in the 1930's. The Refuge is mostly marsh or meadows flooded by spring run off.
BLM lands are primarily arid, rocky, low production ground that no one wanted back in the homestead days or lands that homesteaders never proved up on (i.e. they simply could not make it). A small amount is high elevation having no growing season of consequence.
Out on our great plains east of the Rockies, herbage production can be measured in tons per acre. Out here it might range between 1000 (some of the best) to as little as 125 lbs per acre with the bulk of our precip coming in the winter. Average rangeland herbage production is about 250 lbs per acre. It's suitable for grazing and recreation, but very little could ever be dry land farmed. Most of our good ground has access to perennial surface water and was proven up early on (i.e our deeded lands).
With deep soils and pivot systems, we we can do 2 to maybe 3 cuttings of alfalfa annually. Potential frost in any month of the year pretty much takes out traditioal row crops and grains.
1 Min,
Can't remember if I've seen it somewhere before, but now I'm not sure. You have any info on who owned it before Swift? Did they purchase it from "failed" homesteaders, was it "railroad" or school lands sold off by those folks, or did they purchase it from another landowner?
Seems like it's been in fed hands for a long time, not like some of the other lands being "contested" because the feds pressured landholders to sell.
The P Ranch was originally assembled by Peter French and another gentleman named Hugh J Glenn beginning around 1872 to service eastern Oregon and western Idaho's mining industry. From memory, I believe they were relatives through marriage.
French was the cattleman and Glenn was the money. Lots of famous cattle ranches were similarly formed like Miller&Lux. A combination of brains or cow sense and bucks $. French wielded considerable power and was used to getting his way. Probably not too well liked as the person that shot him got off mostly because the shooter was a good person with family. The facts on his shooting are disputed. Some say cold blood, and another version is French was whipping up on a perceived trespasser.
The argument was that French held all property north to Malheur Lake. As the lake was subsiding at the time, folks began to move in between the historic boundary and the receding lake shore. One of those legal questions when the river moves a mile across the valley and deeds reference the middle of the river as the boundary. Do you pick up a section for free, while the old neighbor's just out of luck?
I believe French also held title to the Roaring Springs Ranch in the neighboring Catlow Valley. Today, it's probably the largest independently held ranch in Oregon, although there used to be a ZX ranch that might have been larger. Many 100+ square mile pastures that span the Steens Mountains and Catlow Valley.
When French was killed, the on the ground force for sustaining the empire was broken and the holdings dissolved with the Refuge component going to Swift. There were also other holdings that were dissolved as well
The bulk of this link looks to be fairly correct. P Ranch link
Some Googling for Pete French, Frenchglen, P Ranch, Malheur Refuge etc can probably shake out some other facts and maybe add some confusion too.
French was Dr. Glenn's son in law. In the 1860 and 70's Glenn was the largest wheat grower in California, headquartered in what is now Glenn county, in the northwest part of the Sacaramento Valley.
The ZX is still a ranch and is the largest. Its headquarters is at Paisley Oregon in Lake county and is owned by Simplot. Simplot also owns the View Point ranch it is part of the ZX. Ed
If they want the land so bad why don't they offer to buy it from the govt, or do they think the govt should just give it to them?
Who did "the govt" buy it from?
I thought it was taxpayer owned.
Federal Land is owned by we, the people, and managed by government entities that are overseen by official who we, the people, elect and send to Washington, D.C., to look after our interests. If so, it seems to me that anybody who has a BLM or FS grazing lease is stealing from all of us if he/she fails to pay his/her lease fees. The BLM is at fault for failing to deal with non-paying grazing lease holders promptly. In fact, I think that I'll contact my Congressman and Senators to inquire why the BLM has failed to deal with Cliven Bundy more aggressively.
If they want the land so bad why don't they offer to buy it from the govt, or do they think the govt should just give it to them?
Who did "the govt" buy it from?
I thought it was taxpayer owned.
Federal Land is owned by we, the people, and managed by government entities that are overseen by official who we, the people, elect and send to Washington, D.C., to look after our interests. If so, it seems to me that anybody who has a BLM or FS grazing lease is stealing from all of us if he/she fails to pay his/her lease fees. The BLM is at fault for failing to deal with non-paying grazing lease holders promptly. In fact, I think that I'll contact my Congressman and Senators to inquire why the BLM has failed to deal with Cliven Bundy more aggressively.
It's problematic when people show up with guns, itching for a confrontation.
I guess one of the occupiers was stopped today for a traffic issue. Turns out he was a felon packing a handgun and rifle, uninsured, and had plates taken from another rig. Real pillars of society there wanting to hide their true identity. Must not be too proud or want to be recognized for his efforts.
We are now seeing a completely unexpected and unified front forming in Or, and Id, and I can see it going past national to even an international scale. Seems our largely silent majority is joining hands with those exceptionally vocal environmental groups. Not sure if this is true or not, but the rallying call is rumored to be "Get the Flock Out."
I initially had a "go home" tone, and "we'll start talking" view on this. Now it's transitioning to a "get them out" mode.
On the plus side, this has been an unexpected windfall for the community. Restaurants and caterers are serving to capacity, and all motels are booked solid 3 months out. If one plans on coming here, you'd better book a room yesterday.
All the locals still scared? I thought the Burns bunch was a hell of lot hardier than that. Must be the high percentage of guv workers as 1minute noted.
I guess one of the occupiers was stopped today for a traffic issue. Turns out he was a felon packing a handgun and rifle, uninsured, and had plates taken from another rig. Real pillars of society there wanting to hide their true identity. Must not be too proud or want to be recognized for his efforts.
We are now seeing a completely unexpected and unified front forming in Or, and Id, and I can see it going past national to even an international scale. Seems our largely silent majority is joining hands with those exceptionally vocal environmental groups. Not sure if this is true or not, but the rallying call is rumored to be "Get the Flock Out."
I initially had a "go home" tone, and "we'll start talking" view on this. Now it's transitioning to a "get them out" mode.
On the plus side, this has been an unexpected windfall for the community. Restaurants and caterers are serving to capacity, and all motels are booked solid 3 months out. If one plans on coming here, you'd better book a room yesterday.
Have a good one,
Thank you for the continuing locally / home grown updates.
I can only again comment that this again hearkens back to similar times, with (unfortunately) many similar "Character Problems" evident in the folks who came here uninvited to "Help Out".
Don't get me wrong, I BELIEVE in just about everything one can associate with a REAL, grass roots American "Militia" movement, ...that's part of the record.
This clowning around is doing palpable harm, and perhaps irreparable damage to that important and vital component of rural life at risk,....
....can't help but wonder if it's not supposed to play that way.
Once again,...a question: WHO is this "Spokesman" Lavoy Finicum individual, and what's up with his "Ranch" in Arizona,...anybody here KNOW the guy ?
I guess one of the occupiers was stopped today for a traffic issue. Turns out he was a felon packing a handgun and rifle, uninsured, and had plates taken from another rig. Real pillars of society there wanting to hide their true identity. Must not be too proud or want to be recognized for his efforts.
We are now seeing a completely unexpected and unified front forming in Or, and Id, and I can see it going past national to even an international scale. Seems our largely silent majority is joining hands with those exceptionally vocal environmental groups. Not sure if this is true or not, but the rallying call is rumored to be "Get the Flock Out."
I initially had a "go home" tone, and "we'll start talking" view on this. Now it's transitioning to a "get them out" mode.
On the plus side, this has been an unexpected windfall for the community. Restaurants and caterers are serving to capacity, and all motels are booked solid 3 months out. If one plans on coming here, you'd better book a room yesterday.
Have a good one,
Guess it will be easy to tell which guys inside the compound work for the FBI/DHS/ATF/whatever. They'll be the only ones not arrested at the end.
Doesn't sound as if the protesters are going anywhere.
What's next?
Two options- 1) they will be ignored in the hope that they leave from boredom
2) They will be villainized by the media, including the social media, until the tipping point of public opinion has been reached, then they will be removed to the sound of cheering fans of oppressive govt.
One thing's for certain, the govt will claim the power to bill them for damages so expect their lives to be ruined no matter what. They can probably be brought up on charges and may join the Hammonds in prison.
We can let the monkeys burn down cities but we can't let anyone burn some sagebrush. We can let the monkeys burn down buildings but we can't let the ranchers peacefully occupy one in protest.
All I can say about those poor fearful folks in Burns that must close down schools, govt offices and hide indoors is, it's a damn good thing they weren't in Missouri a while back when some real sheit was going down.
...They will be villainized by the media, including the social media, until the tipping point of public opinion has been reached, then they will be removed to the sound of cheering fans of oppressive govt...
Sometimes government actions can be out of line, sometimes citizens can be out of line.
The Bundys have claimed the County Sheriff is the ultimate authority, yet they ignored the Sheriffs in both standoffs.
Then they claim The People are the ultimate authority. They travel to another state and tell the locals what to do, with guns ready. Clearly the majority of locals want them out. Ammon Bundy doesn't care. He thinks he runs the show. He's the real authority, not the elected government, not the locals. He gives the orders. If anyone tries to force them to leave, Bundy's boys will shoot. People aren't going to put up with it forever, that's for sure.
Two of these guys have already been arrested. Many of the rest will be arrested and convicted, based on the law of the land, a jury of their peers, and the support of the majority of the people.
No situational changes of consequence announced at last night's community update held in the local high school. A goodly number (maybe a couple dozen) of the occupiers showed up a bit late, dispersed themselves among the crowd, and shouted a few insults as community members spoke.
A good tactic from their point as the silent majority types are less inclined to speak if a nearby person is going to glare and shout insults. Community tone is transitioning from a simple “go home” to a “get out,” with suggestions the area be locked down with amenities (power, phone, transportation, etc) switched off. To date the occupiers are still free to come and go at will.
There's a great deal of community frustration regarding inaction by the authorities. There's no direct public access to the visiting federal authorities, and while local authorities are quite accessible, they are outnumbered and not tasked with enforcing federal statutes on federal property. That frustration is really boiling down to a “who’s in charge here?”
Despite its scale the Refuge has historically had only a single enforcement person on staff, and he’s also charged with covering the Hart Mt Antelope Refuge as well. Mostly he’s been charged with keeping Native American sites secure and protecting wildlife. He likely did not sign up to deal with organized armed insurgence.
As to real courage, a tribal lady who voiced concerns about the security of artifacts and historic materials housed at Refuge Headquarters was followed to her home and encouraged to stay on the reservation. Anyone approaching her property now needs to identify themselves well in advance or deal with 12 gauge materials passing through her door. It took a lot of backbone for her to stand before the community and voice her concerns. With the exception of a few elders, tribal ladies are pretty much non-confrontational.
This would be a bit more entertaining were it not our backyard. Federal folks are pretty much officially on administrative leave, teleworking, or ignoring orders and going in discretely to keep things going. Outside of local administrators and law enforcement, state and county workers have not been openly threatened, and they are back at work. Most, however, are keeping their facilities well secured.
Probably I could look at the link you posted to see how French got a hold of so much land in the first place. The whole situation sounds "interesting" to say the least.
Glad business is booming, never hurts a small community to have extra business, until it "Hurts" the community in the way of violence. I hope it doesn't come to that.
The guy that got picked up, he's really a good guy, sometimes misunderstood, it's the goobermint's fault. They're holding a good man down.
Or he's a govt plant, probably made a deal for a reduced sentence. Get in and spy on those folks.
Geno
PS, or maybe he is a good guy and was railroaded into the felony sentence? Who knows, this is getting pretty strange.
PPS, if he is a felon, one might have hoped the occupiers would have the smarts to use available technology (heck they have govt computers, right) to vet the folks joining them. Seems a tactical error to take in a felon on your team when you're trying to seem like the good guys.
...They will be villainized by the media, including the social media, until the tipping point of public opinion has been reached, then they will be removed to the sound of cheering fans of oppressive govt...
Sometimes government actions can be out of line, sometimes citizens can be out of line.
The Bundys have claimed the County Sheriff is the ultimate authority, yet they ignored the Sheriffs in both standoffs.
Then they claim The People are the ultimate authority. They travel to another state and tell the locals what to do, with guns ready. Clearly the majority of locals want them out. Ammon Bundy doesn't care. He thinks he runs the show. He's the real authority, not the elected government, not the locals. He gives the orders. If anyone tries to force them to leave, Bundy's boys will shoot. People aren't going to put up with it forever, that's for sure.
Two of these guys have already been arrested. Many of the rest will be arrested and convicted, based on the law of the land, a jury of their peers, and the support of the majority of the people.
I'm not there to see for real, maybe the occupiers are "leaderless" or a "true democracy". However, it sure looks from the outside that you have it right there, Buck.
Seems like I've seen this before. I'm not going anywhere until I get what I want. I'll kick and scream and stay right here until then. And if you try to make me..... I'll run around the couch and you can't catch me, nanner nanner nanner. And if you do catch me I just might bite you. It's either little naughty Jimmie or Fido, I can't remember which one. Maybe both.
I doubt the occupiers have the forethought or skill sets to vet their supporters. I suspect many are sort of the lost soul types having the mindset that society owes them. If they did vet one another, they might be fearful of themselves. Not heard of any that are investment bankers, PTA members, little league coaches, or upstanding hardworking citizens in some other community. Obviously they don’t have jobs. If support is as strong as claimed, the Bundy bunch might be taking in millions and will retire to Majorca when the smoke clears.
They have had a couple similarly natured parties arrive that were asked to and did leave. I'd guess control (who’s in charge) issues might be a significant problem. Following orders is probably a tough deal, and I suspect some of the harassment/threatening incidents reported are due to loose cannons.
Not all inclusive at all, but some of our local supporters are well known for pushing boundaries. Trivial stuff like game violations or ignoring public land regulations and rules. Not horribly bad people, but not the folks one would send their kid off with for a months vacation. Pretty much a mindset that their only mistake is getting caught, and as remote as we are one has to almost try to make that happen.
So anarchy is the solution, and we should be individually free to select the laws and regulations that we might follow. Peace, goodwill, and wealth will then magically appear.
Doesn't sound as if the protesters are going anywhere.
What's next?
Two options- 1) they will be ignored in the hope that they leave from boredom
2) They will be villainized by the media, including the social media, until the tipping point of public opinion has been reached, then they will be removed to the sound of cheering fans of oppressive govt.
One thing's for certain, the govt will claim the power to bill them for damages so expect their lives to be ruined no matter what. They can probably be brought up on charges and may join the Hammonds in prison.
We can let the monkeys burn down cities but we can't let anyone burn some sagebrush. We can let the monkeys burn down buildings but we can't let the ranchers peacefully occupy one in protest.
All I can say about those poor fearful folks in Burns that must close down schools, govt offices and hide indoors is, it's a damn good thing they weren't in Missouri a while back when some real sheit was going down.
Nothing to see here, move along.
Fb2,
If someone came to your place of business, took over while you were closed for the weekend or out hunting, would not let you return to your normal work, used your trucks and equipment to do work you didn't want done for purposes you didn't condone, used your electronic equipment and connections for their purposes while not allowing you to use them for yours, removed security cameras you had installed (at a minimum, a cost to you in labor when/if you get to re-install them), caused you a need to hire added security to protect your loved ones and other property you had in the area from being taken over, caused you to have to adopt methods (at a cost no doubt) for allowing your employees to continue to do business for your enterprise....... (shall I go on?)
Would you NOT expect to be able to bill them and perhaps bring them up on charges?
Geno
PS, I may somewhat agree with their message, change is needed. I'm pretty sure I don;t agree with their methods.
Doesn't take much skill nowadays to vet someone. "Google" works, peoplefinder, things along those lines. Public records searches for criminal background seem easy enough.
Anarchy is NOT the solution.
I've been telling my wife for years.....GENO-archy is the solution
ya'll just haveta' start listenin' to ME. I can set the world right, if ya'll just follow some simple rules. MINE!
Thanks again for the local intel (biased by you , no doubt )
We're not talking about someone coming to my private business. We're talking about protests against an oppressive govt.
The Founding Fathers actually thought this would be necessary if and when gov became oppressive. However, this is a completely foreign thought process to most sheep, even here on the fire.
Hell, Muslims are taking over the govt and nothing's being done! 72 Democrats are pushing for all things Muslim right now, and who cares right? So if these guys have a beef against the govt, let's just discount them as crackpots. We should trust the govt.
We're not talking about someone coming to my private business. We're talking about protests against an oppressive govt.
The Founding Fathers actually thought this would be necessary if and when gov became oppressive. However, this is a completely foreign thought process to most sheep, even here on the fire.
Hell, Muslims are taking over the govt and nothing's being done! 72 Democrats are pushing for all things Muslim right now, and who cares right? So if these guys have a beef against the govt, let's just discount them as crackpots. We should trust the govt.
That'd be great, if the protestors weren't on the dole of that same gov't. The more that comes out about these people, the more they look and smell like welfaristas of a different color/stripe.
That's not saying a thing about the folks sent back to prison on an unprecedented appeal of sentence. That's something different, and they aren't involved in this "protest". It's a comment on said "protestors".
And if the one's who takeover your private business do so because THEY believe you are an oppressive employer? Businessman? They feel they've been "harmed" by your policies/business practices/usurious rates, etc? You're OK with that? After all, someone thinks you are oppressive.
I understand what they are trying to do. Are there not first steps before going to armed confrontation? Isn't that what we do as a "civil" society?
Even the "greenies" try peaceful protest, roadblocks, lawsuits, chaining themselves to equipment, before they reach the "Weather Underground" Earth Justice stage.
What's next, do the Bundys and friends start planting ied's on FS roads, or at FWS/BLM/NOAA/.gov buildings because they are being "oppressed"?
I guess one of the occupiers was stopped today for a traffic issue. Turns out he was a felon packing a handgun and rifle, uninsured, and had plates taken from another rig. Real pillars of society there wanting to hide their true identity. Must not be too proud or want to be recognized for his efforts.
We are now seeing a completely unexpected and unified front forming in Or, and Id, and I can see it going past national to even an international scale. Seems our largely silent majority is joining hands with those exceptionally vocal environmental groups. Not sure if this is true or not, but the rallying call is rumored to be "Get the Flock Out."
I initially had a "go home" tone, and "we'll start talking" view on this. Now it's transitioning to a "get them out" mode.
On the plus side, this has been an unexpected windfall for the community. Restaurants and caterers are serving to capacity, and all motels are booked solid 3 months out. If one plans on coming here, you'd better book a room yesterday.
Have a good one,
Thank you for the continuing locally / home grown updates.
I can only again comment that this again hearkens back to similar times, with (unfortunately) many similar "Character Problems" evident in the folks who came here uninvited to "Help Out".
Don't get me wrong, I BELIEVE in just about everything one can associate with a REAL, grass roots American "Militia" movement, ...that's part of the record.
This clowning around is doing palpable harm, and perhaps irreparable damage to that important and vital component of rural life at risk,....
....can't help but wonder if it's not supposed to play that way.
Once again,...a question: WHO is this "Spokesman" Lavoy Finicum individual, and what's up with his "Ranch" in Arizona,...anybody here KNOW the guy ?
Fireball, PILT payments are a jokearoonie in terms of "paid" per acre.
The bottom line of all this comes where 1 Minute talks about the Greens making hay with this. Yes -- that's precisely it. They have full time staff that do nothing but hype and spin. This is a golden opportunity for what I most feared:
The WRONG people, talking the WRONG issues, in the WRONG place, at the WRONG time. Federal mismanagement is a huge issue that deserves rational discussion, kind of like when Greg Walden gave his talk. The sentence given the Hammonds is off the charts unjust and THAT should be the reason there's a protest at the refuge.
Fireball, PILT payments are a jokearoonie in terms of "paid" per acre.
The bottom line of all this comes where 1 Minute talks about the Greens making hay with this. Yes -- that's precisely it. They have full time staff that do nothing but hype and spin. This is a golden opportunity for what I most feared:
The WRONG people, talking the WRONG issues, in the WRONG place, at the WRONG time. Federal mismanagement is a huge issue that deserves rational discussion, kind of like when Greg Walden gave his talk. The sentence given the Hammonds is off the charts unjust and THAT should be the reason there's a protest at the refuge.
We're not talking about someone coming to my private business. We're talking about protests against an oppressive govt.
The Founding Fathers actually thought this would be necessary if and when gov became oppressive. However, this is a completely foreign thought process to most sheep, even here on the fire.
Hell, Muslims are taking over the govt and nothing's being done! 72 Democrats are pushing for all things Muslim right now, and who cares right? So if these guys have a beef against the govt, let's just discount them as crackpots. We should trust the govt.
Isn't the root of the Bundy thing his/their belief that they shouldn't be required to pay to graze their cattle on public land? The land that belongs to me in equal proportion to every other citizen? Why should the Bundy family benefit from the use of public land far in excess to their fair share? I think that the BLM failed to do their job and pursue Mr. Bundy as aggressively as necessary to hold him accountable. The Secretary of the Interior should be held accountable for the BLM's failure to protect public property. I pay my $1.69 AUM and feel that everybody who uses Federal public land for grazing should do the same.
It's not that I'm totally unsympathetic, but I knowed that occupying a deserted bird watching' house in the dead of winter was a bad idea.
You've become more fun to read in recent years Bristoe. It's responses like this that keep me as a subscriber to your 'Fire-blog even if I don't always agree with your political assessments.................though I often do more than I want to admit.
Community tone is transitioning from a simple “go home” to a “get out,” with suggestions the area be locked down with amenities (power, phone, transportation, etc) switched off. To date the occupiers are still free to come and go at will.
Fireball, PILT payments are a jokearoonie in terms of "paid" per acre.
The bottom line of all this comes where 1 Minute talks about the Greens making hay with this. Yes -- that's precisely it. They have full time staff that do nothing but hype and spin. This is a golden opportunity for what I most feared:
The WRONG people, talking the WRONG issues, in the WRONG place, at the WRONG time. Federal mismanagement is a huge issue that deserves rational discussion, kind of like when Greg Walden gave his talk. The sentence given the Hammonds is off the charts unjust and THAT should be the reason there's a protest at the refuge.
Well said Dave.
There's a problem for sure.
The only argument is how to address it.
Agreed. There's a metric schit ton wrong with management of public lands, but these jackasses aren't addressing those problems anywhere close to "right" on any level.
Thank you for the continuing locally / home grown updates.
I can only again comment that this again hearkens back to similar times, with (unfortunately) many similar "Character Problems" evident in the folks who came here uninvited to "Help Out".
Don't get me wrong, I BELIEVE in just about everything one can associate with a REAL, grass roots American "Militia" movement, ...that's part of the record.
This clowning around is doing palpable harm, and perhaps irreparable damage to that important and vital component of rural life at risk,....
....can't help but wonder if it's not supposed to play that way. Once again,...a question: WHO is this "Spokesman" Lavoy Finicum individual, and what's up with his "Ranch" in Arizona,...anybody here KNOW the guy ?
GTC
must be the same guy, last year he was on the other side of the ditch (Grand Canyon)
I doubt the occupiers have the forethought or skill sets to vet their supporters. I suspect many are sort of the lost soul types having the mindset that society owes them...
Here's a quote from him: "We are peaceful people, I certainly am," he says. "And the only circumstance, the last extremity, I think that any gunshots would be fired is if the federalists tried to root us out of here. They would find out then, that we are not playing. We're not gonna give an inch. And I say that very seriously." Very peaceful. He only kills people when he's mad, or if they try to enforce the law.
And then of course there's the Millers from the first Bundy standoff: "I feel sorry for any federal agents that want to come in here and try to push us around or anything like that. I really don't want violence toward them, but if they're going to come bring violence to us, well, if that's the language they want to speak, we'll learn it." They later murdered two policemen in cold blood, and shot a civilian for good measure. ...during the restaurant shooting, the Millers loudly declared to other patrons that it was the start of "a revolution".
Armed mobs are dangerous and often irrational. Like thinking they are the heroes starting a revolution.
I guess one of the occupiers was stopped today for a traffic issue. Turns out he was a felon packing a handgun and rifle, uninsured, and had plates taken from another rig. Real pillars of society there wanting to hide their true identity. Must not be too proud or want to be recognized for his efforts.
We are now seeing a completely unexpected and unified front forming in Or, and Id, and I can see it going past national to even an international scale. Seems our largely silent majority is joining hands with those exceptionally vocal environmental groups. Not sure if this is true or not, but the rallying call is rumored to be "Get the Flock Out."
I initially had a "go home" tone, and "we'll start talking" view on this. Now it's transitioning to a "get them out" mode.
On the plus side, this has been an unexpected windfall for the community. Restaurants and caterers are serving to capacity, and all motels are booked solid 3 months out. If one plans on coming here, you'd better book a room yesterday.
Have a good one,
Thank you for the continuing locally / home grown updates.
I can only again comment that this again hearkens back to similar times, with (unfortunately) many similar "Character Problems" evident in the folks who came here uninvited to "Help Out".
Don't get me wrong, I BELIEVE in just about everything one can associate with a REAL, grass roots American "Militia" movement, ...that's part of the record.
This clowning around is doing palpable harm, and perhaps irreparable damage to that important and vital component of rural life at risk,....
....can't help but wonder if it's not supposed to play that way.
Once again,...a question: WHO is this "Spokesman" Lavoy Finicum individual, and what's up with his "Ranch" in Arizona,...anybody here KNOW the guy ?
GTC
Too many pussies in AZ to hold their ground from the wets.
I guess one of the occupiers was stopped today for a traffic issue. Turns out he was a felon packing a handgun and rifle, uninsured, and had plates taken from another rig. Real pillars of society there wanting to hide their true identity. Must not be too proud or want to be recognized for his efforts.
We are now seeing a completely unexpected and unified front forming in Or, and Id, and I can see it going past national to even an international scale. Seems our largely silent majority is joining hands with those exceptionally vocal environmental groups. Not sure if this is true or not, but the rallying call is rumored to be "Get the Flock Out."
I initially had a "go home" tone, and "we'll start talking" view on this. Now it's transitioning to a "get them out" mode.
On the plus side, this has been an unexpected windfall for the community. Restaurants and caterers are serving to capacity, and all motels are booked solid 3 months out. If one plans on coming here, you'd better book a room yesterday.
Have a good one,
Thank you for the continuing locally / home grown updates.
I can only again comment that this again hearkens back to similar times, with (unfortunately) many similar "Character Problems" evident in the folks who came here uninvited to "Help Out".
Don't get me wrong, I BELIEVE in just about everything one can associate with a REAL, grass roots American "Militia" movement, ...that's part of the record.
This clowning around is doing palpable harm, and perhaps irreparable damage to that important and vital component of rural life at risk,....
....can't help but wonder if it's not supposed to play that way.
Once again,...a question: WHO is this "Spokesman" Lavoy Finicum individual, and what's up with his "Ranch" in Arizona,...anybody here KNOW the guy ?
GTC
Too many pussies in AZ to hold their ground from the wets.
Something you'll goddam NEVER say to anybody here's face.
just from the basement keyboard of a cowardly punk.
as has been said many times - the general public wouldn't have known about the Hammonds if not for this dustup.
Was it well planned, are they speaking on behalf of the Hammonds best interest? no
are they serious about becoming martyrs over this? Their actions say yes even if logic says no.
but ignoring them is the last thing they want - public interest has now moved on to something else and they will not gather more support by being the lead story on the news.
it was the best plan of action for the government.
At some point they'll have to act on these - assuming they don't cave from "roughing it" -
seems the only interest in continuing the story here is 1minute .
We need to be real careful expressing such radical ideas as nationalism and patriotism. Mentioning the Constitution too many times in a conversation brands you a domestic terrorist.
We need to be real careful expressing such radical ideas as nationalism and patriotism. Mentioning the Constitution too many times in a conversation brands you a domestic terrorist.
Our own government has turned against us.
Sad, sad days in America.
Serious question - what part of the Constitution and freedom is central to the message and operation of this bunch?
Serious question - what part of the Constitution and freedom is central to the message and operation of this bunch?
They held a press conference early on that can better answer that than I can.
I saw it. I don't buy any of it. The Hammonds, who likely have very legitimate complaints, aren't part of this group and didn't ask them to come and want no part of them. The group is made up of welfare ranchers (Bundy) and an increasing number of convicted felons (including a dude that murdered his own father in his sleep). They aren't connected to this area and have no connection to anything going on there. They claimed that the local, elected Sheriff was the highest law in the area until he asked them to leave; at which point they decided that they were the law. The locals aren't supporting them and want no part of them.
I'm failing to see much difference between them and other jackass bunches like those of the radical blacks and hippies in the 1960s and 70s, or the BLM movement now.
I was hoping that since you keep bringing up the Constitution and Freedom in context to this bunch that you might have means of explaining how what they are doing is related to either the Constitution or Freedom.
You can't see a connection of any kind to what they are doing and freedom, or you just want to put me on the spot to enumerate it for you? I'm not a statistician, other people are gifted in that. If you ask what their perspective is, ask yourself this. If they're not fighting for freedom from oppressive govt, then what? Longer recess and beer on campus? Better pay and longer vacations? The right to wear orange sweaters? Whether you agree with their definition of oppressive govt or not, that's what they're fighting for, freedom from it.
I don't know the men personally, and have no idea if they'll go postal, who knows, maybe they will. They haven't done anything violent yet. But you wouldn't know that by the characterization ol 1minute gives of them. Makes it sound like everyone over there is just shaking in their boots, suffering under paid leave and lockdowns fearing for their lives. Well, if you're of the govt class, maybe you should be afraid, you're being challenged, so far, passively. I have a hard time having sympathy for the guvning class. YMMV. For the record, I know people (some in Burns) that know this firsthand. I've got a little more insight than you might think. That is ALL I will say about that.
The men that started the US of A went postal, and it worked out pretty well for them and us, until our politicians gave our country away and sold us all down the river. The articles were written to protect against this, but of course with lawyers in positions of power, who do you think they'll take care of, themselves or the country?
We can't be sure what the protesters will do, it's the nature of rebellion. If they go to war against innocent people, I will condemn them for it. I'm not sure I can find anything to disagree with yet. They peacefully took over an empty building normally manned by one person for the oversight of a bird sanctuary. I think the govt can absorb the loss of this facility for a while to hear these guys out.
But of course, the media will vilify them, the social media plants will vilify them, the govt workers will vilify them, the chicken littles and pajama boys will vilify them, the liberals will vilify them.
From where I sit in the cheap seats, the media has gotten to a whole bunch of otherwise sensible people that quit thinking with the bigger picture in mind. Instead, as always happens with the left, and often the right now too, they vilify the person and ignore the persons objections. We see it on the fire every single day.
By forcing me to side with the protesters, or not, you leave no room for a discussion of the biggest picture, which is here is a group of guys that are so fed up with big govt that they have risked their livelihood, safety, indeed their very lives to make their voice heard.
And sadly, because of the success of the smear campaign against them personally, their message will largely be lost.
You can't see a connection of any kind to what they are doing and freedom, or you just want to put me on the spot to enumerate it for you? I'm not a statistician, other people are gifted in that. If you ask what their perspective is, ask yourself this. If they're not fighting for freedom from oppressive govt, then what? Longer recess and beer on campus? Better pay and longer vacations? The right to wear orange sweaters? Whether you agree with their definition of oppressive govt or not, that's what they're fighting for, freedom from it.
I don't know the men personally, and have no idea if they'll go postal, who knows, maybe they will. They haven't done anything violent yet. But you wouldn't know that by the characterization ol 1minute gives of them. Makes it sound like everyone over there is just shaking in their boots, suffering under paid leave and lockdowns fearing for their lives. Well, if you're of the govt class, maybe you should be afraid, you're being challenged, so far, passively. I have a hard time having sympathy for the guvning class. YMMV. For the record, I know people (some in Burns) that know this firsthand. I've got a little more insight than you might think. That is ALL I will say about that.
The men that started the US of A went postal, and it worked out pretty well for them and us, until our politicians gave our country away and sold us all down the river. The articles were written to protect against this, but of course with lawyers in positions of power, who do you think they'll take care of, themselves or the country?
We can't be sure what the protesters will do, it's the nature of rebellion. If they go to war against innocent people, I will condemn them for it. I'm not sure I can find anything to disagree with yet. They peacefully took over an empty building normally manned by one person for the oversight of a bird sanctuary. I think the govt can absorb the loss of this facility for a while to hear these guys out.
But of course, the media will vilify them, the social media plants will vilify them, the govt workers will vilify them, the chicken littles and pajama boys will vilify them, the liberals will vilify them.
From where I sit in the cheap seats, the media has gotten to a whole bunch of otherwise sensible people that quit thinking with the bigger picture in mind. Instead, as always happens with the left, and often the right now too, they vilify the person and ignore the persons objections. We see it on the fire every single day.
By forcing me to side with the protesters, or not, you leave no room for a discussion of the biggest picture, which is here is a group of guys that are so fed up with big govt that they have risked their livelihood, safety, indeed their very lives to make their voice heard.
And sadly, because of the success of the smear campaign against them personally, their message will largely be lost.
Sorry, I'm just not seeing a deadbeat welfare rancher like Bundy (someone who has made a living off the gov't subsidized ranching and now doesn't want to pay the lease payments on land he's been using) or a guy who makes his living off social services contracts for taking in foster kids (noble that such an act is) or a bunch of convicted felons as being "freedom fighters" against the government. Thus far, it seems that most of them make their living off the gov't, so the hypocrisy is rather stark and puts them squarely in the same camp as the "freedom fighters" on federal loans (like the hippies and blacks in the 1960s and 70s) or welfare (BLM now).
The Founders weren't on the gov't teat, so that analogy falls very flat.
Fireball, you aren't any more rational than Bundy and company. These guys are wackos that want to be forever .gov supported wackos. That you can't see that says more about you than about them.
Sorry, I'm just not seeing a deadbeat welfare rancher like Bundy (someone who has made a living off the gov't subsidized ranching and now doesn't want to pay the lease payments on land he's been using) or a guy who makes his living off social services contracts for taking in foster kids (noble that such an act is) or a bunch of convicted felons as being "freedom fighters" against the government. Thus far, it seems that most of them make their living off the gov't, so the hypocrisy is rather stark and puts them squarely in the same camp as the "freedom fighters" on federal loans (like the hippies and blacks in the 1960s and 70s) or welfare (BLM now).
The Founders weren't on the gov't teat, so that analogy falls very flat.
You've got valid points, on their face, but they again smear the snapshot of what's really happening here. I bet if we knew personally the people that started this country we'd have a less rosy picture of them than perhaps we do. That would not have made their cause any less important, valid, or urgent.
I'll just say I don't have to know or believe in these men's personal propriety to the point of perfection being required of them, to see value in their fight and interest in the outcome.
To think less is to fall prey to the media manipulation that is forever blasting these guys personally, rather than holding up their cause for examination.
I can see the big picture as being worthy of consideration, and more important than any one individuals credentials.
Fireball, you aren't any more rational than Bundy and company. These guys are wackos that want to be forever .gov supported wackos. That you can't see that says more about you than about them.
There are a number of posters on the fire that use the tactic I described of vilifying their opposition personally rather than addressing the issue presented. This is an example, and more will follow.
Sorry, I'm just not seeing a deadbeat welfare rancher like Bundy (someone who has made a living off the gov't subsidized ranching and now doesn't want to pay the lease payments on land he's been using) or a guy who makes his living off social services contracts for taking in foster kids (noble that such an act is) or a bunch of convicted felons as being "freedom fighters" against the government. Thus far, it seems that most of them make their living off the gov't, so the hypocrisy is rather stark and puts them squarely in the same camp as the "freedom fighters" on federal loans (like the hippies and blacks in the 1960s and 70s) or welfare (BLM now).
The Founders weren't on the gov't teat, so that analogy falls very flat.
You've got valid points, on their face, but they again smear the snapshot of what's really happening here. I bet if we knew personally the people that started this country we'd have a less rosy picture of them than perhaps we do. That would not have made their cause any less important, valid, or urgent.
I'll just say I don't have to know or believe in these men's personal propriety to the point of perfection being required of them, to see value in their fight and interest in the outcome.
To think less is to fall prey to the media manipulation that is forever blasting these guys personally, rather than holding up their cause for examination.
I can see the big picture as being worthy of consideration, and more important than any one individuals credentials.
I haven't said a single thing about media coverage of them; only the public record on them.
You WANT to see a bunch of Freedom Fighters standing up to an oppressive government and wanting to return to the Constitution. I understand that well, and agree in many ways with that exact stance. Convicted felons (really, a guy who murdered his father in his sleep over him asking the guy's girlfriend to leave his home?), deadbeat gov't welfare ranchers, and guys getting money from the gov't to take in kids FROM an oppressive gov't are not "freedom fighters".
I don't "know" them personally, but I know what's publicly available. I didn't "know" the Founders personally, either, but I know what's personally available. There is no comparison.
There may well come a time again where men like the Founders have to stand up and fight for Freedom once more. That bunch in OR ain't them; not even close. They've cited the Constitution, and then when that they said was the lawful authority in the area (elected Sheriff) disagreed with them and asked them to go, they changed their minds and decided they were the lawful authority. That's not Freedom, that's tin-pot dictatorship. When it's carried out by people who make their living from the same gov't they are supposedly "fighting" against, it's also hypocrisy.
Fireball, you aren't any more rational than Bundy and company. These guys are wackos that want to be forever .gov supported wackos. That you can't see that says more about you than about them.
There are a number of posters on the fire that use the tactic I described of vilifying their opposition personally rather than addressing the issue presented. This is an example, and more will follow.
No insult intended, but you (and I) are both as guilty of that as any. Hard to be on a high-horse on that subject when you (and I) have rolled in the mud rather frequently.
Yep, the difference is that you and I do not do it as a matter of first course. For some it is modus operandi. Heck even when you and I disagree, it comes back around and we laugh about it, and move on. We've made it through a few disagreements and come out the other side, would you agree?
For some, character assassination is the creed, the only approach to any conflict.
View closely the content of 1minutes or BFD's posts, and weigh that.
Yep, the difference is that you and I do not do it as a matter of first course. For some it is modus operandi. Heck even when you and I disagree, it comes back around and we laugh about it, and move on. We've made it through a few disagreements and come out the other side, would you agree?
For some, character assassination is the creed, the only approach to any conflict.
View closely the content of 1minutes or BFD's posts, and weigh that.
BFD, I haven't followed. I've "known" 1minute for a pretty long time. That's not his MO or 1st course by a very, very long shot (Hell, he's called me on it several times and been right in doing so).
You know, I'll sure give 1minute the benefit of a doubt, but I question his obvious slant towards fear and discrediting the protesters. The lack of objectivity is really glaring to me. Always sides with the fear faction, also popular with the left.
Convince me I'm wrong about 1minute and I'll listen.
I don't think you will convince me that the message, not the messengers, but the message of All Powerful Big Govt that the protesters bring is inaccurate.
If the Bundy's didn't pay their grazing fees, that's a personal problem of theirs, but it doesn't invalidate the message, only the messenger.
Can you hear what's being said over the drone of the media's smear campaign?
You know, I'll sure give 1minute the benefit of a doubt, but I question his obvious slant towards fear and discrediting the protesters. The lack of objectivity is really glaring to me. Always sides with the fear faction, also popular with the left.
Convince me I'm wrong about 1minute and I'll listen.
I don't think you will convince me that the message, not the messengers, but the message of All Powerful Big Govt that the protesters bring is inaccurate.
If the Bundy's didn't pay their grazing fees, that's a personal problem of theirs, but it doesn't invalidate the message, only the messenger.
Can you hear what's being said over the drone of the media's smear campaign?
I can hear what we both want to hear over said drone. I can also see that these are false messengers. I trust them not at all on their current "crusade" or on any meaningful message. They are doing far more to harm any real message (and there is one) than the gov't is at this point, and that they are living off that gov't dole while doing so makes me question things all the more.
I can hear what we both want to hear over said drone. I can also see that these are false messengers. I trust them not at all on their current "crusade" or on any meaningful message. They are doing far more to harm any real message (and there is one) than the gov't is at this point, and that they are living off that gov't dole while doing so makes me question things all the more.
Fair enough, because at this point we don't know if they'll crack and go postal or what. If they are crazies and go off the deep end against innocents, I'll be right beside you condemning their actions. If they defend themselves physically against a govt that would kill them for their peaceful stand, all bets are off!
By the same token, wouldn't it be great if that does not occur, and some real and honest inroads were made thru this campaign for the betterment of citizens rights? that's the best that we could hope for.
To be completely honest, rooting for their cause is rooting against all odds. Certainly public opinion will never be on their side, due to the effectiveness of liberalism in America. Too many pajama boys and chicken littles.
I can hear what we both want to hear over said drone. I can also see that these are false messengers. I trust them not at all on their current "crusade" or on any meaningful message. They are doing far more to harm any real message (and there is one) than the gov't is at this point, and that they are living off that gov't dole while doing so makes me question things all the more.
Fair enough, because at this point we don't know if they'll crack and go postal or what. If they are crazies and go off the deep end against innocents, I'll be right beside you condemning their actions. If they defend themselves physically against a govt that would kill them for their peaceful stand, all bets are off!
By the same token, wouldn't it be great if that does not occur, and some real and honest inroads were made thru this campaign for the betterment of citizens rights? that's the best that we could hope for.
To be completely honest, rooting for their cause is rooting against all odds. Certainly public opinion will never be on their side, due to the effectiveness of liberalism in America. Too many pajama boys and chicken littles.
If their cause was a/the true cause, they'd have a chance. If they were true messengers of that true cause, they'd have support. Their message is false, and they themselves are false prophets of the true message.
If they get harmed being removed, then it's akin to hippie or black power protesters, or BLM protesters, or "Occupiers", being removed. They'll have no sympathy here because they've brought it on themselves by being hypocrites and false messengers/prophets.
When the true cause arises and true messengers of it are voicing the call, we'll know. This bunch, is neither.
I want to make a comment about her being a dried up old lesbian hack, but I won't. Let's just say she's a democrat, and ironically the article leaning heavily into the "fear" factor and had no validity based in reality for those fears. Just fears. Which is what the left does. Fear. And yell down opponents. And trump up charges and cry and knash teeth and wail and cry for the children and and and...
If their cause was a/the true cause, they'd have a chance. If they were true messengers of that true cause, they'd have support.
No false cause, no evil cause, no wrong cause, ever succeeded? The success (or lack of it) is no reflection of it's validity.
Never said that, nor did I say that their validity was due to their success or lack thereof, only that IF they were true in cause and message (about the Constitution and Freedom) then they would have support. They are false, and because of that they have no support.
If their cause was a/the true cause, they'd have a chance. If they were true messengers of that true cause, they'd have support.
No false cause, no evil cause, no wrong cause, ever succeeded? The success (or lack of it) is no reflection of it's validity.
Never said that, nor did I say that their validity was due to their success or lack thereof, only that IF they were true in cause and message (about the Constitution and Freedom) then they would have support. They are false, and because of that they have no support.
You said they'd have a chance, as in chance of what if not a chance of success?
Who say they have no support, the media? Also, you completely disregard the effect of the media's smear campaign on their success or lack of and base their lack of support solely on the (lack of) righteousness of their cause. Do you think the media engage in useless activities that provide no successful outcomes for them?
If they defend themselves physically against a govt that would kill them for their peaceful stand, all bets are off!
They are saying they will shoot to kill anyone that tries to force them to leave. In other words, if enough law enforcement shows up to carry them away by force [and without shooting], the Bundy boys will kill them to prevent it.
One could argue that the people in Ferguson fought a bit harder than the folks in Oregon. Fear the man with nothing to lose. Step back from the nuances and look at the generalities.
Some call them Americans, idiots here call them "monkeys"
One could argue that the people in Ferguson fought a bit harder than the folks in Oregon. Fear the man with nothing to lose. Step back from the nuances and look at the generalities.
Some call them Americans, idiots here call them "monkeys"
Do you REALLY believe that a bunch of ghetto welfaristas living off the gov't dole rioting over the death of a drugged out felon who assaulted a cop and burning down private businesses are "Americans"?
I find them reprehensible scum. Ditto the welfaristas living off the government dole threatening to kill anyone who tries to make their often felonious asses leave their little "takeover".
Neither are "Americans"; neither are "Freedom fighters"; neither represent or defend the Constitution; and neither are worthy of any admiration.
When there are private citizens not living off the gov't dole who are being forced up, having government troops housed in their homes and businesses, overtaxed on their personal lives, denied the rights of habeus corpus, of trial by jury of their peers, of representation, and of the right of defense of self and property - when THEY rise up against a tyrannical government, then they'll be akin to the Founders. And, that ain't happened .... yet.
of the right of defense of self and property - when THEY rise up against a tyrannical government, then they'll be akin to the Founders. And, that ain't happened .... yet.
We've certainly endured injustices at the hands of our govt. It's been going on forever! It's just a question of who finally gets their fill, stands up, and is summarily dismissed, vilified, marginalized, labeled a terrorist, mentally ill, etc etc etc.
of the right of defense of self and property - when THEY rise up against a tyrannical government, then they'll be akin to the Founders. And, that ain't happened .... yet.
We've certainly endured injustices at the hands of our govt. It's been going on forever! It's just a question of who finally gets their fill, stands up, and is summarily dismissed, vilified, marginalized, labeled a terrorist, mentally ill, etc etc etc.
Come on man, you and I have to agree on this, no?
I'm not saying that the government has not leveled injustices on the people.
The entire last part, not just that bit, is appropriate. The "bunch standing up" in OR is one HELL of a lot closer to hippies, or Black Power, or BLM, or Occupiers than to the Founders - and that's the point. I support none of those former and when it comes time for men like the Founders to stand up again, that's when the cause and the message (and messengers) are true and just. Until then, and with what is going on, it's nothing more than a bunch of welfare rats complaining about not getting enough gubmint cheese to keep them appeased.
One could argue that the people in Ferguson fought a bit harder than the folks in Oregon. Fear the man with nothing to lose. Step back from the nuances and look at the generalities.
Some call them Americans, idiots here call them "monkeys"
Do you REALLY believe that a bunch of ghetto welfaristas living off the gov't dole rioting over the death of a drugged out felon who assaulted a cop and burning down private businesses are "Americans"?
I find them reprehensible scum. Ditto the welfaristas living off the government dole threatening to kill anyone who tries to make their often felonious asses leave their little "takeover".
Neither are "Americans"; neither are "Freedom fighters"; neither represent or defend the Constitution; and neither are worthy of any admiration.
When there are private citizens not living off the gov't dole who are being forced up, having government troops housed in their homes and businesses, overtaxed on their personal lives, denied the rights of habeus corpus, of trial by jury of their peers, of representation, and of the right of defense of self and property - when THEY rise up against a tyrannical government, then they'll be akin to the Founders. And, that ain't happened .... yet.
Their vote counts the same, just the way it is. Just a matter of time before the Oregunners are to that point.
I'm not saying that the government has not leveled injustices on the people.
Can I get an AMEN!?!!
The problem is, few have stood up against BIG G, and have just rolled over, like the Hammonds. Straight to the prisons. The one's that have stood up, are crucified in public opinion with no further thought given their cause.
Do you wanna talk about vets and how they're treated by the G? I'm sure you know well. When they stand up, the one's that are able to stand, they will be labeled domestic terrorists, and mentally unstable. Oh, wait, they already are, as a pre-emptive move to them standing up.
You see, it's the govs MO to discredit it's detractors. And it's working.
The "protesters" have done a good job obscuring the initial injustice that occurred to the Hammonds. They now look like fools and have neither furthered the cause of Constitutionalists nor have they helped the Hammonds in anyway shape or form.
Yep, Ace, The HAMMONDS are the end result of years of agency funny business all in the name of refuge or environmental "protection." As long as the Bundy Bunch clouds the issue, that's all good for the narrative -- look at Forger, he's on board, completely. There are no legitimate issues to discuss in his view, the agencies can do NO wrong. Even better, the longer the Bundy Bunch stays, the higher the likelihood that something stupid is going to happen, something that delegitimizes valid concerns about federal managment/policies and makes positive change even less likely.
Wrong people, wrong issue, wrong place, wrong time, wrong everything. They need to STFU and go home.
The "protesters" have done a good job obscuring the initial injustice that occurred to the Hammonds. They now look like fools and have neither furthered the cause of Constitutionalists nor have they helped the Hammonds in anyway shape or form.
That's exactly it.
The Bundy bunch, made up of those on the gov't dole and criminals, have totally obscured the Hammonds case, undermined their support, and sabotaged the position and message of Constitutionalists - and been allowed to do so by .gov.
Wrong people, wrong issue, wrong place, wrong time, wrong everything. They need to STFU and go home.
Yup
Blind squirrel and nut theory at work (pun there); Dave finally got something right.
He remains so wrong on me, and twisted up about it, that it's hysterical. Carry on, Dave. When all you have are pathetic attempts to insult me through intentional (and laughable) misspellings of my login, you know you've got nothing at all.
They need to tuck their tails and get out quietly while they still can. If all that comes of this is a bill for the ruckus, they should pay it and thank them. I'm never on the side of tyrannical government but just because one is a nail doesn't make everything else a hammer.
I really don't want any shots fired by either side as that won't bode well for gun owners or Constitutionalists.
They need to tuck their tails and get out quietly while they still can. If all that comes of this is a bill for the ruckus, they should pay it and thank them. I'm never on the side of tyrannical government but just because one is a nail doesn't make everything else a hammer.
I really don't want any shots fired by either side as that won't bode well for gun owners or Constitutionalists.
Again, well said and exactly. That last part is why there will likely be some gun fire (and from one of the convenient felons in the mix).
In this case the only benefactor as I see it is the "state". The protesters, and by extension (in the liberal mindsets) all rural, white conservatives, ranchers and farmers look foolish. Which is why most of the former have distanced themselves. Irrational actions like this makes meaningful future dialogue tough.
In this case the only benefactor as I see it is the "state". The protesters, and by extension (in the liberal mindsets) all rural, white conservatives, ranchers and farmers look foolish. Which is why most of the former have distanced themselves. Irrational actions like this makes meaningful future dialogue tough.
Give that man a cigar!
I'd say not irrational, however. More like intentionally provoked by certain agents (provocateur). That "rank and file" with the Bundy bunch is "interesting" to say the least, as is the reaction of .gov.
Whine... cry... twist panties... whine some more... gnash teeth.
When you've got a multitude of folks as disparate in opinions as myself, GTC, Aces, 'Skinner, and others all seeing the same thing on this bunch, didn't ever stop to think that MAYBE you're the one not catching on?
No insult, just a question.
Read the exchanges between crossfire, Aces, 'Skinner, and me for a start and just stop to think for a moment.
Read today that Finicum has appointed himself a curator on Aboriginal / Native Artifacts, he and cohorts digging around in same, on site.
Nice goin', moron, now you've got all the local Tribal folk pizzed at ya' !
These arrogant fools have no problem calling themselves out as well in touch with the sacrted and "Divine" , and yet haven't brains enough to leave alone that sacred to another group of folks.
Rude, overbearing, and FUNDAMENTALLY dishonest, I'd have to say.
Read today that Finicum has appointed himself a curator on Aboriginal / Native Artifacts, he and cohorts digging around in same, on site.
Nice goin', moron, now you've got all the local Tribal folk pizzed at ya' !
These arrogant fools have no problem calling themselves out as well in touch with the sacrted and "Divine" , and yet haven't brains enough to leave alone that sacred to another group of folks.
Rude, overbearing, and FUNDAMENTALLY dishonest, I'd have to say.
GTC
Sounds like a grave robbing SOB eyeballing a chance to make some dough selling someone else's history.
No doubt he's well versed is archaeology and preservation...
Read today that Finicum has appointed himself a curator on Aboriginal / Native Artifacts, he and cohorts digging around in same, on site.
Nice goin', moron, now you've got all the local Tribal folk pizzed at ya' !
These arrogant fools have no problem calling themselves out as well in touch with the sacrted and "Divine" , and yet haven't brains enough to leave alone that sacred to another group of folks.
Rude, overbearing, and FUNDAMENTALLY dishonest, I'd have to say.
GTC
Grave robbers.
Waste all them ratfuck SOB's. I wouldn't feel a thing.
Read today that Finicum has appointed himself a curator on Aboriginal / Native Artifacts, he and cohorts digging around in same, on site.
Nice goin', moron, now you've got all the local Tribal folk pizzed at ya' !
These arrogant fools have no problem calling themselves out as well in touch with the sacrted and "Divine" , and yet haven't brains enough to leave alone that sacred to another group of folks.
Rude, overbearing, and FUNDAMENTALLY dishonest, I'd have to say.
GTC
Grave robbers.
Waste all them ratfuck SOB's. I wouldn't feel a thing.
Probably the most harsh statement MontanaMarine has ever made on any subject. He ain't wrong, but when it comes from him - like this - folks ought to pay some attention.
I've never been one to worry about whether I click with popular opinion. Evidence my generally low approval rating on the fire. I'll try not to lose sleep over it. I figure a guy needs to stand for his principles whether it's popular or not.
I'm not saying you might not be correct in your assessment of the crackpots, sure could be. Time will tell, and if they go postal on innocents, I'm right there with you in condemning them.
But I think it's a shame more can't get on board with the thought line that these guys have had it up to their eyeballs with the govt and are risking everything to make their stand. I bet there's no debate that these guys are going to lose everything for making their stand. The guvs gunna make sure of that. That bothers me.
How many in Ferguson lost it all? Ha, funny. And they didn't occupy an empty building and hold meetings, they burned cars and buildings to the ground. These guys haven't done anything like that, but the guys in Ferguson get a pass and these guys get a $75,000 a day bill and probably jail time, if they aren't outright killed.
Sorry, not seeing the equity.
One thing I learned along time ago is that the guv holds accountable the class of people that it thinks it can, the one's with something to lose. For example, if they issue you a license, they can hold that over your head and penalize you (leverage you) because they know you value your license. You invest time, effort, and money into it, so they have you by the short hairs. You have an illegal driver or contractor with no license, the guv has no power over him, because he doesn't have a license to lose.
Bottom line, you either get the entire oppressive govt thing or you don't. I do.
I can't judge these men, I don't know them. Maybe they're loony and will kill 100 people tomorrow, but I doubt it. If the guv moves in on them and tries to take them by force, I'd really have to wonder how stupid a move that is, since they've been warned not to. It seems like these guys will talk to the guv as many times as is needed with zero violence, so the guv would be stupid to try and overtake this lone outpost on principle alone. Lives are on the line, and lives aren't cheap, so I think the guv would be foolish to squander those lives.
Again, if you want to compare these guys to Ferguson, should we show opposing photos of each? Would that paint a contrast enough for people to see the difference? For whatever they are, these guys are not Ferguson.
But who knows, maybe they are homicidal maniacs. Who can know.
I've never been one to worry about whether I click with popular opinion. Evidence my generally low approval rating on the fire. I'll try not to lose sleep over it. I figure a guy needs to stand for his principles whether it's popular or not.
I'm not saying you might not be correct in your assessment of the crackpots, sure could be. Time will tell, and if they go postal on innocents, I'm right there with you in condemning them.
But I think it's a shame more can't get on board with the thought line that these guys have had it up to their eyeballs with the govt and are risking everything to make their stand. I bet there's no debate that these guys are going to lose everything for making their stand. The guvs gunna make sure of that. That bothers me.
How many in Ferguson lost it all? Ha, funny. And they didn't occupy an empty building and hold meetings, they burned cars and buildings to the ground. These guys haven't done anything like that, but the guys in Ferguson get a pass and these guys get a $75,000 a day bill and probably jail time, if they aren't outright killed.
Sorry, not seeing the equity.
One thing I learned along time ago is that the guv holds accountable the class of people that it thinks it can, the one's with something to lose. For example, if they issue you a license, they can hold that over your head and penalize you (leverage you) because they know you value your license. You invest time, effort, and money into it, so they have you by the short hairs. You have an illegal driver or contractor with no license, the guv has no power over him, because he doesn't have a license to lose.
Bottom line, you either get the entire oppressive govt thing or you don't. I do.
I can't judge these men, I don't know them. Maybe they're loony and will kill 100 people tomorrow, but I doubt it. If the guv moves in on them and tries to take them by force, I'd really have to wonder how stupid a move that is, since they've been warned not to. It seems like these guys will talk to the guv as many times as is needed with zero violence, so the guv would be stupid to try and overtake this lone outpost on principle alone. Lives are on the line, and lives aren't cheap, so I think the guv would be foolish to squander those lives.
Again, if you want to compare these guys to Ferguson, should we show opposing photos of each? Would that paint a contrast enough for people to see the difference? For whatever they are, these guys are not Ferguson.
But who knows, maybe they are homicidal maniacs. Who can know.
fb2,
Am I missing something? This "empty building" you keep referring to, was it abandoned? Used only seasonally? Unoccupied for the long term and not planned for use in the near future? Contained "nothing" except perhaps some unused furniture?
Last I heard, they have taken over refuge headquarters, no?
Again, you would like someone doing this to your property?
I have heard they have gone through government files along with the archaeological items. Of course, we are supposed to trust them in that they are not going through personnel files or anything containing "personally identifiable information" (pii in govt lingo). Do you believe, for a minute, that they do not know the names and addresses of record of every employee, volunteer, and probably even some contractors and employees of other agencies. We are now discovering some of these folks might be classified as "unsavory characters" (felons)
The building wasn't "empty". It is an operating "business", conducting the business of the People of the United States of America. The "People" in general, all across the country, and not just a few folks on a refuge, or in a local community.
Please, in the future, refrain from referring to it as an "empty building". You are doing your argument no favors by continuing to do so.
Had a brief discussion with a rancher as we paused in opposing lanes on Hwy 205 as I was headed into town this PM. He's got a long vocal and involved history in the community and bounds the Refuge. Between us we certainly agree environmental issues and top down federal management is progressively putting a squeeze on agriculture.
I'll not name names, but he has been quoted in some of the "occupier" releases. His face to face version is "seriously misquoted," and he too would like them out of Dodge yesterday. He's also one who had his headquarters swept away by ice in our 1980's floods, and the Refuge and BLM put a lot of effort into getting him reheadquartered and AUM rations in other allotments.
Several of you guys are taking this way too seriously. I can understand it if one is taking his keys out of his rigs, locking his front door, or is concerned when an out of state junker does a lap around your lot and leaves without stopping, but some of you are 600 miles away.
Just agree to disagree. Several of my coworkers have completely abandoned social media due to the huge volume of misinformation and name calling. With the volume of banter that's taking place, they simply don't have the time.
Geno, Respectfully sir, it was in fact an empty building when it was taken over. Not sure why that's in dispute. Nobody was harmed, nobody was there, nobody was intimidated, nobody was sent home scared. I believe it's a one employee operation normally but no one was there. Am I wrong on this? Perhaps I've read wrong.
Ferguson on the other hand was outright rioting, looting, burning, complete lawlessness by the basest animals of our society. There shall be no comparison of the two on my watch. Perhaps photos should be put up to show the contrast.
As for the Refuge Headquarters moniker, dude I've been by there many times. That's like saying a Chevy Vega is a "Grand manifestation of excellence in automotive design, engineering, and construction". Don't be unduly flattered by the title. It's thrown around in the media to add weight to the whole agenda. And clearly it's working.
To be completely honest, rooting for their cause is rooting against all odds. Certainly public opinion will never be on their side, due to the effectiveness of liberalism in America. Too many pajama boys and chicken littles.
Fireball, you can call all those that oppose you names like that but it doesn't add anything to your case. You admit public opinion will never be on their side - that right there is the fundamental part of freedom - the public's, not the individual's opinion is what rules. Their cause is totally indefensible if you are freedom loving, constitutional fundamentalist.
Somehow anyone that objects to .gov is on the side of right for you. But that's simply your own egocentric value. Most of use enjoy driving on the federal interstate system, flying safely around the country, using multipurpose public lands and paying our fair share. We like having water that can swum in and air that is clean and clear. We appreciate a strong defense and we have one. .gov is not all bad and they are not bad in this instance at all. The Bundy's want change, but they don't want democratic change, they want dictatorial change. That is not freedom.
Bundys' method has become (and always was) their message. You choose not to see that because you only see evil in .gov.
just when I'm convinced those guys need to be run off, I read one of 1minute's one sided posts full of nameless quotes and unsourced references and I feel a need to support them again.
The ONLY thing the media is interested in is the story, which means readers, clickers, watchers, and "award winning coverage". Traffic always stops for a wreck. News is always bad. Let them start burning and looting and it'll be on the front page. Let them start shooting people and they'll interrupt Judge Judy. Media is a business. This website is a business. Everytime someone logs in, somebody, somewhere is benefiting.
Its simple, the people of Ferguson had less to lose than the guys in Oregon. They "feel" that they are pushed further in the corner so they fight harder. Right or wrong, stupid or not, completely pathetic, call them what you will. Cops shot a "druggie" or whatever. Feds do some BS with public land. There isnt a person in Ferguson that gives a crap about public land. Not a fella in Oregon gives a schit about some guy with a criminal record that was killed by cops.
Both are fed up with what they see as an overabundance of control and wrongdoing. Doesn't matter the outlet they chose to "fight the power"
Big picture.
I can't argue for or against either group, but can appreciate wanting to be left the phuqq alone.....
Google Earth "malheur national wildlife refuge" and the headquarters site will appear. On site staff is around 16 full timers, and there is a bunkhouse capable of housing 20 seasonal folks (summer hires and visiting researchers). Probably where the occupiers are toughing it out complete with satellite TV, phones, and heat. There are 4 other staff home sites (1 at Buena Vista, second at the south end west of Page Springs Campground, 3rd at the P-Ranch Headquarters proper, and 4 at their OO facility (Double O). Those usually house road/ditch maintenance workers.
Cookie and I spend in excess of 30 days a year on their property. About 3 solid weeks in November, and full days dispersed throughout the rest of the year. About as close to a destination resort as we can have in the region.
On the Refuge
Aimed at my office about 400 yds back.
It really sucks here. No Burger King, Walmart, or Starbucks for 130+ miles. Most folks can't survive.
Geno, Respectfully sir, it was in fact an empty building when it was taken over. Not sure why that's in dispute. Nobody was harmed, nobody was there, nobody was intimidated, nobody was sent home scared. I believe it's a one employee operation normally but no one was there. Am I wrong on this? Perhaps I've read wrong.
Ferguson on the other hand was outright rioting, looting, burning, complete lawlessness by the basest animals of our society. There shall be no comparison of the two on my watch. Perhaps photos should be put up to show the contrast.
As for the Refuge Headquarters moniker, dude I've been by there many times. That's like saying a Chevy Vega is a "Grand manifestation of excellence in automotive design, engineering, and construction". Don't be unduly flattered by the title. It's thrown around in the media to add weight to the whole agenda. And clearly it's working.
fb2,
I'm sure there are others here who agree that your civility to me is and will continue to be appreciated.
Apparently we will have to disagree on terminology.
Personally, my house is not "empty" when my wife & I leave it, for a minute, hour, day, or longer. It may be "unoccupied", but it is not "empty" and in our case, it is still in use. I would not want anyone "squatting" in my house because I wasn't home and they felt the house was "empty",, especially if they are armed and won't let me back into MY property. I sincerely doubt there are many here who would support the squatters in that case, but they seem to believe it OK if the property is federally owned. I don't understand it.
My take on things along this line, the refuge building/s may have been unoccupied, but they were not "empty" and they were still in use and were expected to be manned again on the first workday after the holiday weekend.
I do think it a good thing that the situation unfolded the way it did , that the "occupiers" did not have to come in armed and ask employees to leave. Whether that was planned or not, it was a good thing. I believe they'd be facing more serious charges than they are already had that happened.
Apparently we may also disagree on "property rights" as it appears to me you you are supporting the armed trespass (unauthorized entry) and occupation of property not legally controlled by the "Bundy crew" because it is owned by the federal government.
Would you support an armed occupation of a large ranch, privately and legally owned, that used "economic" tactics to increase it's holdings and "oppress" neighboring landowners? Or the armed occupation of a utility company's facilities, "empty" of course, because the utility had a stranglehold on the consumers and ratepayers of their product?
I don't like the fact that many areas I'd like to get to, owned by the public, are inaccessible due to the owners "oppressive" tactics, such as "trespass fees". Would you support me going in armed and camping on their "empty" lands (while they are away from their property of course) and telling them I wouldn't leave until my demands are met?
Again, we may agree on there being a problem with the management of OUR federal lands. We certainly disagree on the method being uses to address the problem.
Geno
PS, I understand, perhaps better than some, what it is like to live and work at a relatively remote facility and I cannot imagine what it would be like to know that when I came back to work on Monday there would be armed occupiers at my workplace, going through our files, altering the workplace (as in taking down fences), and generally f'n a bunch of stuff up that we would eventually have to straighten out on top of our regular duties. Not to mention the concern of having felons have access to private information.
PPS, for whoever was asking, (ringman?) I believe 1 minute included info in a post about how many employees etc were affected and what type of facility is being "occupied". It's not just a lonely line shack.
SO FAR, no one has been hurt. Maybe they will be, time will tell. The men are obviously feeling pretty desperate about their situation to stand up to the govt.
Those clowns in Missouri burned the place to the ground. To me, there is absolutely no comparison between the two groups. On the one hand, you've got well spoken and articulate, calculating people that did try peaceful protests and going through legal channels, and on the other you've got base animals that destroyed peoples property and lives by burning down their livlihood! If you want to talk about sheer fear, how can anything the occupiers have done be even remotely compared to what happened in Ferguson? Agree with them or not, they are not Ferguson. But who knows, maybe they'll unleash hell today. One things for sure, the govt won't let them win in the court of public opinion, with the use of the media and social media plants ensuring they get shouted down. Their message will be lost to the wind, as long as the emphasis is on the "fear".
Some will tell you how scared the residents of Burns are, and oh yeah, Burns is 30 miles from the protesters! Say what?!! 30 miles? What are they gunna do, shoot a missile into Burns? For crying out loud, who buys into this crap we're being fed? If the govt thought they were a legitimate threat why in the name of Jesus haven't they locked that place down for the safety of everyone?
No, I suspect the govt will sit back and shoot darts, plant misinformation, push buttons, manipulate the situation any way they can, WHILE LEAVING ACCESS OPEN, hoping the occupiers WILL crack under the pressure and attempt something stupid.
Like I said, if the govt wanted to protect those poor quivering folks in Burns, 1minutes friends, they'd simply close the roads leading to and from, done deal, threat contained. But they're not doing that are they? Probably because they'd get more gun control (and a plethora of other) mileage out of an "incident", citizen safety be damned.
It ain't rocket science. If they are scared of the occupiers, shut the roads down and contain them.
Insurrection by definition would almost every time be far more messy than this occupation. Challenging the govt normally comes at great cost. I don't see how they could be any more benign and still strive to get their point across.
There is an article of page 4A, in he State-By-State section, of today's issue of USA TODAY that quotes Oregon Governor Kate Brown as saying the following:
"The situation is absolutely intolerable and must be resolved immediately.".
"Federal authorities must move quickly to end the occupation and hold all of the wrongdoers accountable.".
"The very fabric of this community is being ripped apart.".
"The spectacle of lawlessness must end.".
She goes on to say that Harney County is incurring expenses of $100,000 per week related to "The Standoff" and that she is seeking State funds to help offset those expenses and then Oregon would bill The Federal Government.
I'm having trouble getting my mind around how a peaceful protest can cost Harney County $100,000 per week.
There is an article of page 4A, in he State-By-State section, of today's issue of USA TODAY that quotes Oregon Governor Kate Brown as saying the following:
"The situation is absolutely intolerable and must be resolved immediately.".
"Federal authorities must move quickly to end the occupation and hold all of the wrongdoers accountable.".
"The very fabric of this community is being ripped apart.".
"The spectacle of lawlessness must end.".
She goes on to say that Harney County is incurring expenses of $100,000 per week related to "The Standoff" and that she is seeking State funds to help offset those expenses and then Oregon would bill The Federal Government.
I'm having trouble getting my mind around how a peaceful protest can cost Harney County $100,000 per week.
Jeff, you are astute in your observations. I'm just surprised it's not more than $100,000 a week in a state controlled by democrats. Last I heard the Harney County judge was going for $75,000 a day.
"Let's just throw something at the wall, something really scary and inflammatory, and see if it sticks".
Notice the term lawlessness is so easy to apply to anyone that opposes the govt and seeks a hearing for their grievance, but a politician can be a career criminal and the term lawlessness is never applied to them?
Notice the term lawlessness is so easy to apply to anyone that opposes the govt and seeks a hearing for their grievance...
That isn't why they are lawless. They are lawless for stealing government vehicles, seizing and destroying public property and threatening lives.
Some of them will go to prison, not for speaking their mind but for clearly lawless behavior.
The Bundy family seems to think they ARE the law. They're not. Nobody voted for them. They are costing the public millions of dollars with their lawless arrogance. People are losing their patience.
Notice the term lawlessness is so easy to apply to anyone that opposes the govt and seeks a hearing for their grievance...
That isn't why they are lawless. They are lawless for stealing government vehicles, seizing and destroying public property and threatening lives.
Some of them will go to prison, not for speaking their mind but for clearly lawless behavior.
The Bundy family seems to think they ARE the law. They're not. Nobody voted for them. They are costing the public millions of dollars with their lawless arrogance. People are losing their patience.
Agreed.
Add to this that they are completely obscuring and damaging the case and opinion around the Hammonds (who sit in jail on an unprecedented appeal of an already served sentence, among other issues), and they are undermining and publicly discrediting Constitutionalists nationally.
Ask yourself, again, who benefits from the actions of the Bundy bunch?
1. a secret agent employed to provoke suspected persons to commit illegal acts and so be discredited or liable to punishment.
Exactly. Now, think again about what this bunch is doing to obscure the Hammond cases, and to undermine and discredit the Constitutionalists. All with a bunch of convenient felons in the mix, and a surprisingly stand-offish .gov? Now, think again about who benefits from all this?
Notice the term lawlessness is so easy to apply to anyone that opposes the govt and seeks a hearing for their grievance...
That isn't why they are lawless. They are lawless for stealing government vehicles, seizing and destroying public property and threatening lives.
Some of them will go to prison, not for speaking their mind but for clearly lawless behavior.
The Bundy family seems to think they ARE the law. They're not. Nobody voted for them. They are costing the public millions of dollars with their lawless arrogance. People are losing their patience.
Contact your Senators and ask them why the Department of the Interior has allowed the Bundy situation to go unresolved to the point that they owe over $1M is unpaid grazing fees. If the BLM had done their job, managing public property, the situation would never have gotten out of hand.
There is an article of page 4A, in he State-By-State section, of today's issue of USA TODAY that quotes Oregon Governor Kate Brown as saying the following:
"The situation is absolutely intolerable and must be resolved immediately.".
"Federal authorities must move quickly to end the occupation and hold all of the wrongdoers accountable.".
"The very fabric of this community is being ripped apart.".
"The spectacle of lawlessness must end.".
She goes on to say that Harney County is incurring expenses of $100,000 per week related to "The Standoff" and that she is seeking State funds to help offset those expenses and then Oregon would bill The Federal Government.
I'm having trouble getting my mind around how a peaceful protest can cost Harney County $100,000 per week.
260,
more than likely not direct costs but reimbursables due to other agencies coming in.
"Deputies from Multnomah, Columbia and Marion counties are being sent to Harney County to help in the situation. Deputies from other Portland-area counties are expected to join the effort.
Ward has asked for help from all 36 counties through the Oregon State Sheriffs’ Association and most are sending deputies to Burns. Harney County officials declined to discuss specifics about the deputies’ duties in eastern Oregon. "
Some of these might be paid for by the feds according to the article "if" a state of emergency is declares,
What will be hard to figure out is who will pay for the overtime used to cover the LEO's shifts while they are out of town? You want your county to pay that? The State of Oregon? The Feds?
Someone, (hint, the taxpayers) will pay for the "occupation" and it more than likely won't be the Bundys, they don't even pay their back lease fees.
Geno
PS. I think I read in a local paper that Yamhill county (?) won't be sending any deputies. So perhaps all 36 are not able to help out.
Well I know they won't be seeing any "help" from Josephine County as far as manpower or resources.... our sheriff's dept has less man power than Harney County has...I think now we have two deputies plus the Sheriff, for a county bigger than Rhode Island....
As usual, the Potland government crowd are getting itchy... its making their liberal leftist utopia look bad on national news....
Why hasn't our lesbo governor made a trip out there herself, to see to the concerns of the community first hand?
Naw sitting in her office in her slippers is a lot easier, and takes no effort... just the way the elitist DemocRATS love to govern....
From a Potland perspective, its like these guys are holding an outhouse hostage in some remote isolated part of their state, that hardly anyone from there have ever been to...much less care to care about it...
Exactly. Now, think again about what this bunch is doing to obscure the Hammond cases, and to undermine and discredit the Constitutionalists. All with a bunch of convenient felons in the mix, and a surprisingly stand-offish .gov? Now, think again about who benefits from all this?
They are costing the public millions of dollars with their lawless arrogance.
Wow, now it's millions of dollars. Really? Millions? They must be ordering some expensive take-out and having it delivered on the govt credit card.
So it's right up there with one of the Obama's trips to Hawaii. I get it.
fb2,
It all adds up, if one figures only 75% of the 36 OR counties sent help, that = 27 persons
(I'm lowballing it. from the article I quoted in my other post: "Undersheriff Matt Ellington will lead a group of 14 from Clackamas County to Harney County. Sgt. Dan Kraus says that in addition to Ellington, the group consists of one lieutenant, three sergeants, one detective and eight deputies. They are expected to be in Burns through the weekend and then replacements will be rotated in as needed. " SO, 14 from Clackamas alone)
lets figure $50/hr (salary and benefits for a sgt level) 12 hr day = $600/day per person $600 x 27 (lowball number) = $16200 day Labor cost
lodging and meals & incidentals = $150/day/person (not unreasonable in today's world) $150 x 27= 4050
$4050 + $16200 = $20250/day
let figure a day or two to get started there so start on the 4th? = 18 days so far
$20250 x 18= $364500 so far
That's just salary and lodging for 27 personnel, and if any others sent as many as Clakamas did, my figures are way under.
I'm not figuring in vehicle expenses there, and overtime for replacements at home (equal to or exceeding the salary costs I figured, since it is OT). Let's not forget administrative costs too.
Just a little civil disobedience, at a far off little "bird" refuge, costing a bunch to us taxpayers.
Exactly. Now, think again about what this bunch is doing to obscure the Hammond cases, and to undermine and discredit the Constitutionalists. All with a bunch of convenient felons in the mix, and a surprisingly stand-offish .gov? Now, think again about who benefits from all this?
Hmmm...
This might be worth elaborating on.
All supposition, but think about it - you have a bunch led by a deadbeat, welfare rancher (whom the Feds have conveniently not jailed or arrested or seized property to satisfy decades of debts), guys who get paid by .gov to raise state-places foster kids, guys that are known and convicted felons (seen with or within access to firearms).
Now, they just conveniently pop up where they weren't invited, in area unconnected to any of them, in regards to a case that none of them are involved in.
Oh, and that case has some really fishy stuff in it about the .gov targeting and harassing a family for years (a family, who, by the way, isn't involved with the bunch that showed up).
Somehow, this deadbeat, .gov-welfare funded bunch now claims to be "Constitutionalists", but act against their own stated "goals" and "meaning".
They show up armed and take over a Federal building, resulting in the closure of public lands - blocking out everyone from the area (and from the files that might just pertain to the Hammond's case, conveniently), and the Feds just stand back and watch them do it - and do nothing about it at all.
Now, the Hammond case is extraordinarily tainted and completely obscured. "Constitutionalists" are now bandied about nationally as a bunch of loons and dangerous; that position and meaning undermined substantially.
Ask yourself - who benefits from this?
Just supposition, but if one thinks beyond the superficial things get rather interesting and quickly.
Exactly. Now, think again about what this bunch is doing to obscure the Hammond cases, and to undermine and discredit the Constitutionalists. All with a bunch of convenient felons in the mix, and a surprisingly stand-offish .gov? Now, think again about who benefits from all this?
Hmmm...
This might be worth elaborating on.
"worth" ?
no, given the amount of time, and pages of text it's taken to get you to see this,.... even consider "elaborating" on something that's been goddam clear to a lot of folks here from day 1, I'd say let's defer the next 10 years to something of more value and interest.
like why beans jump out of chili in a microwave, or some such.
Exactly. Now, think again about what this bunch is doing to obscure the Hammond cases, and to undermine and discredit the Constitutionalists. All with a bunch of convenient felons in the mix, and a surprisingly stand-offish .gov? Now, think again about who benefits from all this?
Hmmm...
This might be worth elaborating on.
"worth" ?
no, given the amount of time, and pages of text it's taken to get you to see this,.... even consider "elaborating" on something that's been goddam clear to a lot of folks here from day 1, I'd say let's defer the next 10 years to something of more value and interest.
like why beans jump out of chili in a microwave, or some such.
Well I know they won't be seeing any "help" from Josephine County as far as manpower or resources.... our sheriff's dept has less man power than Harney County has...I think now we have two deputies plus the Sheriff, for a county bigger than Rhode Island....
As usual, the Potland government crowd are getting itchy... its making their liberal leftist utopia look bad on national news....
Why hasn't our lesbo governor made a trip out there herself, to see to the concerns of the community first hand?
Naw sitting in her office in her slippers is a lot easier, and takes no effort... just the way the elitist DemocRATS love to govern....
From a Potland perspective, its like these guys are holding an outhouse hostage in some remote isolated part of their state, that hardly anyone from there have ever been to...much less care to care about it...
Doubt she had ever even been to Burns prior to her running for SoS, if even then. Kinda wonder what her position was on the squatters in the Park Blocks back during Occupy Portland.
no, given the amount of time, and pages of text it's taken to get you to see this,.... even consider "elaborating" on something that's been goddam clear to a lot of folks here from day 1, I'd say let's defer the next 10 years to something of more value and interest.
like why beans jump out of chili in a microwave, or some such.
All supposition, but think about it - you have a bunch led by a deadbeat, welfare rancher (whom the Feds have conveniently not jailed or arrested or seized property to satisfy decades of debts), guys who get paid by .gov to raise state-places foster kids, guys that are known and convicted felons (seen with or within access to firearms).
Now, they just conveniently pop up where they weren't invited, in area unconnected to any of them, in regards to a case that none of them are involved in.
Oh, and that case has some really fishy stuff in it about the .gov targeting and harassing a family for years (a family, who, by the way, isn't involved with the bunch that showed up).
Somehow, this deadbeat, .gov-welfare funded bunch now claims to be "Constitutionalists", but act against their own stated "goals" and "meaning".
They show up armed and take over a Federal building, resulting in the closure of public lands - blocking out everyone from the area (and from the files that might just pertain to the Hammond's case, conveniently), and the Feds just stand back and watch them do it - and do nothing about it at all.
Now, the Hammond case is extraordinarily tainted and completely obscured. "Constitutionalists" are now bandied about nationally as a bunch of loons and dangerous; that position and meaning undermined substantially.
Ask yourself - who benefits from this?
Just supposition, but if one thinks beyond the superficial things get rather interesting and quickly.
It's just no good w/o names, off the record, supposition, hush hush. Say what you mean.
All supposition, but think about it - you have a bunch led by a deadbeat, welfare rancher (whom the Feds have conveniently not jailed or arrested or seized property to satisfy decades of debts), guys who get paid by .gov to raise state-places foster kids, guys that are known and convicted felons (seen with or within access to firearms).
Now, they just conveniently pop up where they weren't invited, in area unconnected to any of them, in regards to a case that none of them are involved in.
Oh, and that case has some really fishy stuff in it about the .gov targeting and harassing a family for years (a family, who, by the way, isn't involved with the bunch that showed up).
Somehow, this deadbeat, .gov-welfare funded bunch now claims to be "Constitutionalists", but act against their own stated "goals" and "meaning".
They show up armed and take over a Federal building, resulting in the closure of public lands - blocking out everyone from the area (and from the files that might just pertain to the Hammond's case, conveniently), and the Feds just stand back and watch them do it - and do nothing about it at all.
Now, the Hammond case is extraordinarily tainted and completely obscured. "Constitutionalists" are now bandied about nationally as a bunch of loons and dangerous; that position and meaning undermined substantially.
Ask yourself - who benefits from this?
Just supposition, but if one thinks beyond the superficial things get rather interesting and quickly.
It's just no good w/o names, off the record, supposition, hush hush. Say what you mean.
I've said what I mean, and said that it's supposition.
Still, who is benefiting from all this? Think about it.
Exactly. Now, think again about what this bunch is doing to obscure the Hammond cases, and to undermine and discredit the Constitutionalists. All with a bunch of convenient felons in the mix, and a surprisingly stand-offish .gov? Now, think again about who benefits from all this?
Hmmm...
This might be worth elaborating on.
"worth" ?
no, given the amount of time, and pages of text it's taken to get you to see this,.... even consider "elaborating" on something that's been goddam clear to a lot of folks here from day 1, I'd say let's defer the next 10 years to something of more value and interest.
like why beans jump out of chili in a microwave, or some such.
GTC
cross,
Jeez, even I know the answer to that one,
beans are related to frogs (another reason they don't belong in chili). The water heats up too fast in them microwaves and the frogs, I mean beans, jump out.
If one cooks chili properly, over a slow fire or coals, the beans, like their brethren the frogs, never notice it's getting too hot and they can't jump out then.
Now, can we discuss something serious, like how much penetration is too much. I mean is there a quantifiable measurement where one can assure the newbie that his bullet of choice "way overpenetrated" or must we continue with nebulous reasoning and "I know it when I see it" ?
In reality, in small, rural counties, they don't make that much in a week.
Some places even less.
Aside from that... they don't pay the cops, and the cops are not on duty unless there's a crisis?
When I was one, I got paid the same, no matter what was going on.
Seems like there's sure a lot of non-event causing a bunch of panic.
rockinbbar,
you are right, rural counties don't pay that much. The places I noted are larger metro areas and I was attempting to hazard a guess as to what a sgt in those areas might make in total compensation (salary, benefits, etc).
Here's a link to Clackamas cty recruiting, wages and benefits page:
Low end of deputy pay calculates out at $27+ per hour salary alone. For a deputy, not a sgt. In the link I posted earlier there was reference to 14 members of that county's force being sent, "in addition to Ellington, the group consists of one lieutenant, three sergeants, one detective and eight deputies." Ellington is an undersheriff, I'm betting he makes a bit more than $27 an hour.
My figure of $50/hr per person ($600 a day for a 12 hr day) is probably not too far off the mark that particular county will probably use to get reimbursed, adding in their cost for these other benefits:
Other benefits:
Life insurance Disability insurance Employee Assistance Program Paid-vacation eligibility after 6 months 9 paid holidays, 2 floating holidays Sick leave Bereavement leave Survivors' benefits Monthly longevity bonuses Incentive pay for education, community service, DPSST Certification and firearms qualification Social Security: County-paid contributions of 7.65% Worker's Compensation Deferred Compensation Retiree Medical Trust Fund Long-term Care Insurance
I have yet to understand just why the "government" needs a whole passel of cops of all types out there to begin with. Have these "perps" threatened anybody's life or property? If all these forces would just go home and tend to business, this matter would simply end it's self.
I have yet to understand just why the "government" needs a whole passel of cops of all types out there to begin with. Have these "perps" threatened anybody's life or property? If all these forces would just go home and tend to business, this matter would simply end it's self.
I think that having a Bundy involved changes the metrics. Cliven Bundy has bluffed the Feds for so long that he now owes $1m in unpaid grazing fees. No doubt, at least in my mind, that his Son Ammon figures that since the Feds haven't done anything meaningful to deal with his Father, they won't do anything meaningful to deal with the situation that his on-site involvement has exacerbated.
I have yet to understand just why the "government" needs a whole passel of cops of all types out there to begin with. Have these "perps" threatened anybody's life or property? If all these forces would just go home and tend to business, this matter would simply end it's self.
Bb215,
Imagine a business, perhaps in a city near you, 16+ employees, large piece of property, important papers and equipment in said business, maybe owned by an important employer in the area.... and a passel of people show up one weekend and take over the business. Oh, not like some of the folks on Wall St, or Portland, or those other "occupations". These folks are armed. Then they say they're not leaving. Until their demands are met.
Sound like a situation your local PD would handle by themselves? Dealing with armed, unknown, out of the area folks?
I think your local PD would call for reinforcements also.
Some reports say there have been threats. Some reports say folks have been followed to their residences. Do YOU know who to believe? I bet the local LEO's aren't sure either.
I don't think this matter will "simply end itself". The occupiers are not giving up easily it seems. I'd take bets there's some arrests for serious crimes.
Well I know they won't be seeing any "help" from Josephine County as far as manpower or resources.... our sheriff's dept has less man power than Harney County has...I think now we have two deputies plus the Sheriff, for a county bigger than Rhode Island....
As usual, the Potland government crowd are getting itchy... its making their liberal leftist utopia look bad on national news....
Why hasn't our lesbo governor made a trip out there herself, to see to the concerns of the community first hand?
Naw sitting in her office in her slippers is a lot easier, and takes no effort... just the way the elitist DemocRATS love to govern....
From a Potland perspective, its like these guys are holding an outhouse hostage in some remote isolated part of their state, that hardly anyone from there have ever been to...much less care to care about it...
Doubt she had ever even been to Burns prior to her running for SoS, if even then. Kinda wonder what her position was on the squatters in the Park Blocks back during Occupy Portland.
Exactly my point....
Bet Ms "First Bisexual Governor in the Country", has not only not been there... wonder if she could even find it on the state Map, without the help of an aide.....and I'm talking Burns...
really bet that is double for her finding French Glen....
You want these guys to go home? Cut the media attention, and have all the Feds go home...
all they have to do out there is try to keep warm and wonder where they are going to be able to get something to eat, water for hygiene, and spend time having a good ol boy circle jerk...
There ain't much out there for them to vandalize.... Feds come and take away all the vehicles and board up the bldgs...
they can keep an eye on them, while training new AF Recruits on controlling the drones from Nellis AFB NV...
Hell, I've been trying to get away from home here for a week now to get out there and see it all first hand...I sure know what the media is reporting, (after seeing first hand what was reported by the Media at Umpqua Comm College and what really happened) is probably 75% or more fabricated for 'sensationalism' by the News Networks....
If these guys really want to take a stand on something... occupying a Reserve's Administration offices out in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of winter.. ain't the place to make a stand or make a point....
but I need to get out there and observe it first hand...
will take my camera to take some pics and will post them when I get back...
Take your rifle and drive the scenic route. Might as well help the deer out and shoot some coyotes on your travels. Probably be a lot more fun than standing around Burns or Frenchglen waiting for nothing to happen.
Several of you guys are taking this way too seriously. I can understand it if one is taking his keys out of his rigs, locking his front door, or is concerned when an out of state junker does a lap around your lot and leaves without stopping, but some of you are 600 miles away.
Serious question but why are the locals so mad at the cuckoos at the bird refuge? Seems like business is booming during an otherwise deathly quiet time. Whatever the cuckoos are doing 45 minutes away is only benefitting the community. Certainly the local cops aren't exporting their loved ones as previous hyperbole suggested. Are they? I appreciate the first hand updates but you were alluding to this being a serious matter. Is it no longer serious?
Take your rifle and drive the scenic route. Might as well help the deer out and shoot some coyotes on your travels. Probably be a lot more fun than standing around Burns or Frenchglen waiting for nothing to happen.
My concerns would be being out there and the Feds raid the place and find out I have a varmint rifle in the vehicle, and round me up with all the protesters and try to tell a judge I was an armed participant.... my dumb luck...
Our third community update was to occur this evening (Monday Jan 25). The venue was moved to a community Senior Center (much smaller facility) because several occupiers entered the school in mass at the last meeting with many obviously packing. It was to be a ticketed event tonight, limited in number but freely available first come first served to documented local citizens.
While I can take arms into our schools for state sponsored Hunter Education classes with our school board's blessings, openly carried arms don't seem to be a habitual thing at public gatherings and games anymore. We're pretty much a bunch of cowboys, and open carry was a regular deal 30 years ago. I guess the most of us though have overcome our fear of snakes and feel secure in the local Safeway.
Tonight's event was canceled for a couple reasons. First: The occupiers threatened to block entrance to the facility. As folks are not shaken down a mile out (not like going to the Super Bowl), a couple of strategically parked rigs could easily barricade entries and exits as could an immobile mass of a dozen thugs at the door. Second: Our local leaders are frustrated the group's been exploiting community sponsored events and grounds to strut their stuff before the media and and shouting down constructive comment.
The occupiers have had a couple recruiting meetings of their own and announced to the press a couple ranchers had agreed to tear up their grazing privilege contracts. In truth is was one of the Bundy's and another of his long time Arizona buddies. One of our locals was cited as saying he'd tasted the cool-aid, but hadn't swallowed anything yet.
Saturday evening I had a conversation with a district level BLM worker and his spouse. He and his wife came home the previous day to find a non resident crew cab parked in front of their home. His wife is a no nonsense lady who pulled up, rolled down her window, and asked if they needed help. She got a muttered and shaken response to the tone of we're lost, stopped to read our map, and were headed for Winnemucca Nv. Seems they'd left the only obvious highway, headed north about 1 1/2 miles into a dead end subdivision and selected their loop to stop and contemplate bearings for their trip. Could be it was a GPS error too. Had they continued straight ahead another 225 miles, they would have found Winnemucca as the next bright spot in the road. She offered to guide them out and get them oriented, but they refused the help and hustled off. Plates were noted as they left, but who knows if they're stolen or not?
Near every facet of this and the environmental community is getting tired. The locals and environment troops have been at war for years around here, but are holding hands at the moment.
About 70 miles to the north in Grant County, the occupiers would have found a more sympathetic audience. That region was totally dependent on the logging industry and the spotted owl issues wiped out a thriving timber industry that's never recovered. Their recent claim to fame was a fire that wiped out most of the valley and 40 or 50 homes to the south of John Day/Canyon Citylast summer. That being, they're not in the best of moods.
The Grant County-John Day Sheriff came down to visit the occupiers, said he had a wonderful and enlightening time with them, and went home to describe them as patriots of the highest order. Latest is he's invited them up to organize a local Committee of Safety. That's a Militia appointed group that is supposed to take over the justice system and disperse the public lands when the occupiers head out to take on another cause.
The occupiers also pissed off the local tribe again when they posted videos of themselves rummaging through stored and indexed artifacts at the Refuge. If there's an issue the tribes won't tolerate, that's the one to pick.
Again, frustrating here as there's no clear authority us locals can approach. Most federal folks are teleworking or doing daily commutes to neighboring offices or agencies where they can access records. Personally, I've started packing for the first time in my 69 years, now lock my doors when leaving for the day, and remove keys from my rigs.
Most of this evening was devoted to mailings routed all the way to the White House (absolutely ashamed to say I did that as Barak and I are not on speaking terms), several Washington agency heads, and all the way down through our state and local representatives including our county commissioners. Basic message is "get the flock out."
Good to send a letter to BHO It's his turd. He could have addressed it properly years ago. Not smart enough to see these things coming. Lots of pent up frustration on the dry side of the state. Trumps rise and this foolish endeavor are symptoms of a bigger problem.
Good to send a letter to BHO It's his turd. He could have addressed it properly years ago. Not smart enough to see these things coming. Lots of pent up frustration on the dry side of the state. Trumps rise and this foolish endeavor are symptoms of a bigger problem.
Neither Obama or Trump GAF about what goes on in rural anywhere.
The force and direction and target of the aggregate, festering frustration and anger of the masses may be surprising. "Why are they burning down their own neighborhood?". Keep your knees loose.
If anything, Obama is playing this bunch of goofballs as another example of white privilege.
"See how the police don't mistreat other white people? Even when they "occupy" a public building and make death threats, they just let them have their way.".
The venue was moved to a community Senior Center (much smaller facility) because several occupiers entered the school in mass at the last meeting with many obviously packing.
So these guys have free reign to come and go? Why not lock their ass up in the clink the moment they step out of the refuge?
I don't get that at all - not the because they're white thing
but posting reports about these folks holed up in some shack with guns at the ready and then they walk into a meeting room surrounded by locals and they just let them go back to breaking the law?
There is *some* law enforcement in that area right?
Pffft...you saw what happed with the Bandidos in Waco, right? They are being left out there to prove a point.
its a similar scenario in this sense
David Koresh was known to go into town quite frequently and even reportedly jogged off the compound.
They could have easily detained him once he was away from all that nonsense and had a peaceful outcome. They just wanted a dog and pony show for the TV cameras
Pffft...you saw what happed with the Bandidos in Waco, right? They are being left out there to prove a point.
Could be that you can't arrest someone without charges, and a warrant.
I have heard of neither.
Doesn't mean they have not done anything to get charges, it just means I have not heard of any specific charges, or arrest warrants related to the occupation.
BURNS, Ore. -- An Oregon sheriff has endorsed two of the demands made by an armed group that took over a federal wildlife preserve.
Malheur National Wildlife Refuge is in Harney County, where local, state and federal law enforcement have convened to figure out how to deal with the occupation by the activists opposing federal land policy.
Federal authorities have taken a hands-off approach so far and say they want a peaceful resolution.
Glenn Palmer, the sheriff of nearby Grant County, told The Oregonian that releasing two ranchers from prison and sending the FBI out of the region would "be a start" to ending the occupation.
Malheur County Sheriff Brian Wolfe, who has been assisting Harney County officials, says Palmer's position is hampering efforts to end the armed standoff.
BTW, that's how our country started, in case you've forgotten, as most here have. Here's a sample-
“Civil disobedience, as I put it to the audience, was not the problem, despite the warnings of some that it threatened social stability, that it led to anarchy. The greatest danger, I argued, was civil obedience, the submission of individual conscience to governmental authority. Such obedience led to the horrors we saw in totalitarian states, and in liberal states it led to the public's acceptance of war whenever the so-called democratic government decided on it...
In such a world, the rule of law maintains things as they are. Therefore, to begin the process of change, to stop a war, to establish justice, it may be necessary to break the law, to commit acts of civil disobedience, as Southern black did, as antiwar protesters did.” ― Howard Zinn, You Can't Be Neutral on a Moving Train: A Personal History of Our Times
regardless of intention or justification, they broke the law. My position has nothing to do with who is just and unjust in this situation.
I'm simply wanting to know why these people have free reign to go into local meetings and disrupt them when they should be held accountable by law enforcement for their actions.
My position has nothing to do with who is just and unjust in this situation.
By this statement you reveal that you are not interested in pursuing a path of righteousness per se, but of law, at the inclusion or exclusion of it.
I'd rather pursue being right than being lawful at the exclusion of being right.
Not saying these guys are righteous, I'm simply stating that just because they are breaking the law, that's not enough for me to label them as of no value to the greater good of society.
Some unforeseen good may very well come of their stand, if not what they intend, than another equally or much more so good. Who can know?
If they crack and go postal, that'll be different.
being right or wrong was thrown out the window when they made it about them and not the Hammonds receiving an unjust penalty of 5 years for a law meant to address terrorism.
Had they kept this solely about the Hammonds, they would have continued to keep public sympathy and goodwill on their side. They were right in their initial protest.
but they turned this into a cause about them, and with it, public support diminished if not entirely away.
I do not view these men as just or righteous. That's not to say they don't have a valid position but their forum and actions are misplaced. The Righteous do not hijack a cause for their own purposes.
I applaud them for bringing the unjust penalty on the Hammonds to the public and I support their actions in doing so.
I no longer support their cause in regards to land use and their justifications for whatever else they are doing as it appears the Hammonds are an afterthought to them at this point.
I don't really know what they expect to accomplish. Their occupation doesn't seem to inconvenience anyone except themselves,...especially during the winter.
Eventually, the law is going to go out there and tell them to leave and the townspeople don't seem inclined to rally around their cause and turn out to support them. So then what? Everybody sacrifices their lives on the alter of the bird watchin' house?
I don't really know what they expect to accomplish. Their occupation doesn't seem to inconvenience anyone except themselves,...especially during the winter.
Eventually, the law is going to go out there and tell them to leave and the townspeople don't seem inclined to rally around their cause and turn out to support them. So then what? Everybody sacrifices their lives on the alter of the bird watchin' house?
Basically, the entire thing is a failure.
They need to go home.
Yes, they do,....look at the caliber of flake that the smell emanating from their circus is starting to attract.
"ANONYMOUS" a loosely associated international network of activist and hacktivist have unleashed on the occupiers. This is a group that will take on all kinds of causes (anti whaling, ISIS, Occupy Wall Street, etc). Obviously I do often support their take on things, but they've turned on the Bundy group.
Hacked in and taken down the occupiers website and social communications networks, Paypal accounts, and will likely be after Pete Santilli shortly. Couldn't happen to nicer bunch of folks. Guess they're even ahead of our government although the occupiers will insist it's really the FBI. This is a group that one does not want to piss off. Thank you Anonymous
A bit of sunshine today in Harney County
Here's an Anonymous link back when the Nevada affair was going on. Anonymous link
"ANONYMOUS" a loosely associated international network of activist and hacktivist have unleashed on the occupiers. This is a group that will take on all kinds of causes (anti whaling, ISIS, Occupy Wall Street, etc). Obviously I do often support their take on things, but they've turned on the Bundy group.
Hacked in and taken down the occupiers website and social communications networks, Paypal accounts, and will likely be after Pete Santilli shortly. Couldn't happen to nicer bunch of folks. Guess they're even ahead of our government although the occupiers will insist it's really the FBI. This a group that one does not want to piss off. Thank you Anonymous
A bit of sunshine today in Harney County
Here's an Anonymous link back when the Nevada affair was going on. Anonymous link
The real tragedy here is the Greens (the professionals, who know how to manipulate the media and have full time jobs doing so) have made serious hay out of this, deflecting the issues with muy mucho help from the Bundy Bunch. Should be asking, WTF happened to put the Hammonds in jail as "terrorists" but instead the discussion is about how WONDERFUL federal management is. The net effect is to make the Greens, who have politically driven the agencies to this low point, relevant to the discussion again. The questions needing asked about agency overreach and malintent by green sympathizers within the federal ranks are not happening.
"ANONYMOUS" a loosely associated international network of activist and hacktivist have unleashed on the occupiers. This is a group that will take on all kinds of causes (anti whaling, ISIS, Occupy Wall Street, etc). Obviously I do often support their take on things, but they've turned on the Bundy group.
Hacked in and taken down the occupiers website and social communications networks, Paypal accounts, and will likely be after Pete Santilli shortly. Couldn't happen to nicer bunch of folks. Guess they're even ahead of our government although the occupiers will insist it's really the FBI. This a group that one does not want to piss off. Thank you Anonymous
A bit of sunshine today in Harney County
Here's an Anonymous link back when the Nevada affair was going on. Anonymous link
Should be asking, WTF happened to put the Hammonds in jail as "terrorists"....
that is the crux. if it happened like the DOJ document says, and the Hammonds tried to burn a witness to their poaching, they should get the 5 years., but I'm not convinced. i'd be all ears to hear what really happened to land the Hammonds in hot water, but that subject is overshadowed by the Bundy dog and pony show.
Should be asking, WTF happened to put the Hammonds in jail as "terrorists"....
that is the crux. if it happened like the DOJ document says, and the Hammonds tried to burn a witness to their poaching, they should get the 5 years., but I'm not convinced. i'd be all ears to hear what really happened to land the Hammonds in hot water, but that subject is overshadowed by the Bundy dog and pony show.
I fought wildfire for nearly 30 years. Usually the BLM isn't very interested in pursuing charges except in actual cases of arson (vs, say, a campfire getting away) or if large amounts of property, like houses, are destroyed, in which case the public wants someone to pay.
I think the article shows there were specific reasons prosecutors were playing hardball with the Hammonds.
The Hammonds weren't convicted of terrorism or even called terrorists in the trial. They were convicted of arson under the umbrella of the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996.
The Hammonds set at least one fire in "Red Flag" conditions. That could have killed someone.
Should be asking, WTF happened to put the Hammonds in jail as "terrorists"....
that is the crux. if it happened like the DOJ document says, and the Hammonds tried to burn a witness to their poaching, they should get the 5 years., but I'm not convinced. i'd be all ears to hear what really happened to land the Hammonds in hot water, but that subject is overshadowed by the Bundy dog and pony show.
I fought wildfire for nearly 30 years. Usually the BLM isn't very interested in pursuing charges except in actual cases of arson (vs, say, a campfire getting away) or if large amounts of property, like houses, are destroyed, in which case the public wants someone to pay.
I think the article shows there were specific reasons prosecutors were playing hardball with the Hammonds.
The Hammonds weren't convicted of terrorism or even called terrorists in the trial. They were convicted of arson under the umbrella of the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996.
The Hammonds set at least one fire in "Red Flag" conditions. That could have killed someone.
I've seen the USFS start controlled burns that got out of hand under the same conditions, and burn tens of thousands of acres and homes and kill countless livestock and wildlife.
The deal with the Hammonds is that they went and paid their debt to society and served prison time, and were released. Then they were re-arrested and sentenced again.
Your link doesn't work for me. Cutting back to wildfire.com doesn't either,
The site must be down temporarily. It was up when I posted the link. Try Google's webcached page" http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kbCdEjYek1QJ:wildfiretoday.com/2016/01/05/the-timeline-for-the-oregon-rancher-arsonists/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
There might be 75,000 wildfires in the U.S. each year. With all those firefighters making millions of tactical and strategic decisions, often in "the fog of war" with incomplete information, sometimes things go wrong, and sometimes people make foolish mistakes. Those mistakes are treated differently than arson under the law for good reason.
HARNEY COUNTY, Ore. — KATU News has learned the leader of the armed occupation at Malheur Wildlife Refuge - Ammon Bundy - has been arrested, along with three other individuals Tuesday evening.
Officials said it all began with a traffic stop while Bundy and some of his followers were en route to a community meeting in John Day, about 70 miles away.
Shots were fired after FBI agents, Oregon State troopers and other law enforcement agencies made the stop. CNN reports its unclear who fired first.
Details of the arrest remain unknown, but charges are pending related to the group's 25-day takeover of the wildlife refuge.
OK, it hit the fan this evening on a tight strecth of highway about 15 miles north of Burns and near the USFS Idlewild Campground. A couple shot, 1 dead, and a few arrested. Local hospital going on lockdown was the first indication.
Never post ones meeting and travel schedules on the web if the authorities are after you.
Hope they confine and starve out the remaining hold outs on the Refuge. Don't want them coming to town to seek revenge.
Sounds like the remaining Refuge holdouts are confined to base. Local news reports they may leave, but will be shaken down as they exit.
I suspect and hope though that some ringleaders will be arrested, charged, and jailed without bond. Their message via social media is an army of thousands is converging, and will rally to save the day.
Not over yet until they've left, but I suspect it will be a long time until local fears of retribution subside. Could be a generation or more before the wounds and feelings heal in our community. I suspect some long term economic impact as well due to the recently formed outside perceptions of the region.
I know one of the adopted sons of the man that was killed. He's currently serving in the Army in HI. The FBI has questioned him.
It is being said that his father, the man killed, had his hands up and declaring that he was there to support the protest group, that is when he was shot in the head and hand.
Sounds like the remaining Refuge holdouts are confined to base. Local news reports they may leave, but will be shaken down as they exit.
I suspect and hope though that some ringleaders will be arrested, charged, and jailed without bond. Their message via social media is an army of thousands is converging, and will rally to save the day.
Not over yet until they've left, but I suspect it will be a long time until local fears of retribution subside. Could be a generation or more before the wounds and feelings heal in our community. I suspect some long term economic impact as well due to the recently formed outside perceptions of the region.
Sounds like finicum was looking for martydom, and he got it.
"I'm just not going to prison," Finicum said. "Look at the stars. There's no way I'm going to sit in a concrete cell where I can't see the stars and roll out my bedroll on the ground. That's just not going to happen. I want to be able to get up in the morning and throw my saddle on my horse and go check on my cows. It's OK. I've lived a good life. God's been gracious to me."
I know one of the adopted sons of the man that was killed. He's currently serving in the Army in HI. The FBI has questioned him.
It is being said that his father, the man killed, had his hands up and declaring that he was there to support the protest group, that is when he was shot in the head and hand.
Some of you guys just don't get it, even now. The govt is not your friend.
but we are not so stupid to believe that everyone who hates the government is our friend.
It's all a matter of perspective. "How can we use this for good, even if the players aren't perfect?"
The conservatives are purists. They insist on voting for only the perfect candidate, or they stay home. They insist on perfection from the Bundy's when they could have capitalized on the position they took.
But no, throw them under the bus, cheer when they get murdered. I swear, there's a day coming when conservatives will deserve what they get. Probably in this next election, just like the last two. We need to pull our collective heads out of our asses.
They stood against oppressive govt, there was plenty of mileage to be gained. Just needed the right PR, which of course is impossible with the media. That's why they media needs to be the first to go, before anyone else.
Who cheered? Some simply choose not to "choose sides" until the facts are known.
If this "movement" means (meant) so much to you........where were you? It's easy to talk (type) from the sidelines.
I believe you brought up the FFs earlier in this thread/topic. What percentage of our ancestors actually nutted up and DID something? 1/3rd.....probably less.
Each of "us" has our line in the sand. You've talked enough that it appears this reached your litmus test. So.....where were you?
Your comparison aside.....these folks don't reach FF status in my world.
Who cheered? Some simply choose not to "choose sides" until the facts are known.
If this "movement" means (meant) so much to you........where were you? It's easy to talk (type) from the sidelines.
I believe you brought up the FFs earlier in this thread/topic. What percentage of our ancestors actually nutted up and DID something? 1/3rd.....probably less.
Each of "us" has our line in the sand. You've talked enough that it appears this reached your litmus test. So.....where were you?
Your comparison aside.....these folks don't reach FF status in my world.
George
I did go out there to Burns, but I didn't join because it wasn't my hill. Doesn't mean I wouldn't have liked to see some good mileage come of it. Conservatives really need to get smart and stop bickering amongst themselves.
Who cheered? Some simply choose not to "choose sides" until the facts are known.
If this "movement" means (meant) so much to you........where were you? It's easy to talk (type) from the sidelines.
I believe you brought up the FFs earlier in this thread/topic. What percentage of our ancestors actually nutted up and DID something? 1/3rd.....probably less.
Each of "us" has our line in the sand. You've talked enough that it appears this reached your litmus test. So.....where were you?
Your comparison aside.....these folks don't reach FF status in my world.
George
I did go out there to Burns, but I didn't join because it wasn't my hill. Doesn't mean I wouldn't have liked to see some good mileage come of it. Conservatives really need to get smart and stop bickering amongst themselves.
Or, recognize fools being played as pawns for what they are and avoid the mess.
This bunch wasn't and isn't any kind of "hero" and all they've done is make the .gov position stronger while damaging the positions of people who actually have and had a stake in changing things.
They stood against oppressive govt, there was plenty of mileage to be gained. Just needed the right PR, which of course is impossible with the media. That's why they media needs to be the first to go, before anyone else.
fb2,
Perhaps they would have been better off if they had "stood" somewhere else.
Maybe on the contested land of the "Hammonds" ranch?
But then again, no cozy buildings with internet access there I guess.
I don't consider debate for clarification arguing and I know damn well I haven't biotched about and of it.
Social Media is powerful enough that if their stance/agenda should have "spoke" for itself. It didn't, apparently, or folks would have rallied.
I'll be honest.....I know next to nothing in regards to grazing rights and don't anticipate digging into that lesson anytime soon. I know that the group in question isn't one I'd go out if my way for. Time will tell in regards to the shooting/arrest. If the facts point to the shoot being justified, these people have done more harm than good for the rest of "us".
The reports from folks " there" show a rift in opinions...... I'm not sure why those of us on the other side of the US should be intervening based on what's presented.
ETA: You're awful quick to jump to "murder"..... What info do you have that the rest of us don't.
You know my supposition and it's a Hell of a lot more plausible than any of the rest, especially when one of the "leaders" was conveniently in Phoenix when all this went down and "turned himself in".
The Bundys were played like fools by an agent provocateur to sabotage the Hammond case(s) and discredit Constitutionalists. Packing the bunch with druggies, felons, those kicked out of the military, and the like only made the entire job of discrediting those two parties all the easier.
Why? You just said it wasn't your hill....why should anyone else choose it?
I didn't choose it as my hill to die on, doesn't mean it doesn't have value if presented to the world in the right light.
Argue argue argue biotch biotch biotch.
fb2,
No real need to die on that hill. One could take a stand of support on the bottom of the "hill" and risk a peaceful (read unarmed) arrest.
You were there in Burns. You seem to be a supporter of the occupiers' cause. May I ask, other than driving over to Burns, what did you do to show your support?
I'm not sure the cause under examination deserves dying for. Perhaps you don't either?
I don't believe in their cause, so there was no way for them to please this "conservative" (if that's what I truly am. Perhaps more of an "Independent" if one must have a label). In my eyes, they, by force of arms, took over United States Government property and assumed the associated risks of doing so. Had they done so in an unarmed (yes, I agree they have the right to bear arms, perhaps not called for in this instance though) manner of peaceful civil disobedience, they may have garnered more respect from folks unfamiliar with their issue. Or perhaps they could have gained more "notoriety" for their cause had they made a stand, burned some .gov buildings, and gone out in a blaze of glory. Either way, one could argue, might have been a presentation to the world in a "better light".
Wait, perhaps I am pleased, as the situation at hand seems to have been resolved (for the time being?) with a minimum of bloodshed on either side. I'm not sure, once this all got started, that we could have asked for a better outcome. No one actually expected the Federal gov to turn over those lands, did they?
Fireball2,
I'm really glad you didn't make it your hill, now you get to continue "discussions" here on our little piece of America.
FB Finicum was now murdered? You do realize that 2 people actually arrested with Finicum have come out and claimed he reached for his weapon. The girl claiming she witnessed this so called murder hasnt even been shown to jave been present.
Also it sounds like the Feds all but said they have video footage of Finicum reaching for a weapon while being told to put his hands up. Doubt they would mention video of it didnt support their stance.
If indeed the video shows him reaching or a weapon is your assertion that he was still murdered?
Do we just forgive his failing to obey a lawful order to stop the vehicle, causing a vehicle pursuit and and then charging a roadblock with a truck (read: weapon of opportunity).
Finicum wanted a confrontation and got it, seems he thought a SA 45LC could outdo multiple m4's.
I'm all for limited Fed ownership of land but this groups way of calling attention to it set everyone back 20+ years.
No local stories of a gun battle here either. If that was the case, the authorities would have been employing poor tactics.
About 5 versions of the takedown from the occupier group have been fed to the media, with most of those coming from parties that were not there and some even living in Arizona. Those versions take the tone of the Arizona guy casually stepping out to say "Hi" and being hammered.
Version I heard on the John Day radio station a moment ago was: a substantial traffic stop station in place where everyone slowed and the rig with the bulk of the intellectually superior Nevada party decided to stop. The Arizona guy elected to blow through, subsequently encountered the well barricaded station some distance down the highway. Decision 2 was an off road run would be a good segue.
With a ton of snow up there, that ploy was likely good for half a car length. As he exited the rig, he reached toward his waist band and lights were switched off. There’s reports of video, but no decision yet on if/when it will be released. Given recent national interests in enforcement efforts, it would not surprise me if they had Spielberg up there to direct the camera work.
My speculation is it’s a clean shoot. Had it been an assassination party, no one in any of the rigs would have been heard from again. Sounds like there's 3 to 5 still holding out at Refuge Headquarters.
I hear it's a serious shakedown if one wants to use any of the three routes approaching that site.
Funny how the bad guys always seem to reach for their waistline
I'd most certainly agree. While it does border on comical, it's certainly not an action I'd accompany my "is there a problem officer" inquiry with. Not the sharpest knife in the drawer for sure.
Crossfire: Seems like he's just a misunderstood guy just trying to get by. Maybe I'll offer him a job if/when he comes out.
So no interest in why a man would put his own life on the line for his interpretation of the Constitution?
Okaaaaay.
I watched the video. I can't see how refusing to pay AUM grazing fees on public land is OK, but not OK if grazing fees weren't paid to a private land owner. Well, there is a difference, a private land owner is unlikely to continue to allow a rancher to graze his animals without payment for as long as the BLM has in the case of the Bundys.
Bundy had a legitimate gripe loosing his AUM's so some fatcat could build condo's, solar project, whatever without due process or compensation by a department that lack checks and balances it should have. He should have kept paying and kept grazing, he would have had more support.
Hammonds got a raw deal, 5 years for burning without a permit is way over the top. It's hard to argue that there wasn't some bureaucratic overstep on feds part. Thats a problems that could have been resolved with more political pressure by the people.
The militia looks a bunch of unorganized people without a solid plan looking to get famous. It they had a clear message, and clear set of demands that were rational, they would have got more traction.
Gov Brown should have left them alone and stuck to munching carpets, her decision to allow the traffic stop made a martyr, I have a feeling someone is going to pay the price down the road. Another week or two, they would run out of beer and money and left anyway, what was the point of forcing the issue.
Bundy had a legitimate gripe loosing his AUM's so some fatcat could build condo's, solar project, whatever without due process or compensation by a department that lack checks and balances it should have. He should have kept paying and kept grazing, he would have had more support.
Hammonds got a raw deal, 5 years for burning without a permit is way over the top. It's hard to argue that there wasn't some bureaucratic overstep on feds part. Thats a problems that could have been resolved with more political pressure by the people.
The militia looks a bunch of unorganized people without a solid plan looking to get famous. It they had a clear message, and clear set of demands that were rational, they would have got more traction.
Gov Brown should have left them alone and stuck to munching carpets, her decision to allow the traffic stop made a martyr, I have a feeling someone is going to pay the price down the road. Another week or two, they would run out of beer and money and left anyway, what was the point of forcing the issue.
No one can really say because you can't count on getting the real scoop on anything these days. These guys could be protesting about a BLM plot to sacrifice newborn babies to Moloch and the media would make them look like nut cases. The Feds could burn down an orphanage and piss on the ashes and there would be those on this board cheering them on.
It is impossible to delecide these deals on individual basis because you can't count on reliable information. You basically have to decide as a matter of individual conscience beforehand if you will stand with the people or the government on these issues.
Bundy had a legitimate gripe loosing his AUM's so some fatcat could build condo's, solar project, whatever without due process or compensation by a department that lack checks and balances it should have. He should have kept paying and kept grazing, he would have had more support.
Hammonds got a raw deal, 5 years for burning without a permit is way over the top. It's hard to argue that there wasn't some bureaucratic overstep on feds part. Thats a problems that could have been resolved with more political pressure by the people.
The militia looks a bunch of unorganized people without a solid plan looking to get famous. It they had a clear message, and clear set of demands that were rational, they would have got more traction.
Gov Brown should have left them alone and stuck to munching carpets, her decision to allow the traffic stop made a martyr, I have a feeling someone is going to pay the price down the road. Another week or two, they would run out of beer and money and left anyway, what was the point of forcing the issue.
Just a point of information here. They had burn permits at the time of the fires. The Hammonds got the remainder of the 5 year sentence because they were prosecuted under the umbrella of an anti-terrorism law.
Just a point of information here. They had burn permits at the time of the fires. The Hammonds got the remainder of the 5 year sentence because they were prosecuted under the umbrella of an anti-terrorism law.
Yes, they were convicted for arson on federal property. If that law were evenly applied, the jails would be overcrowded with farmers and ranchers. Total BS IMO and a miscarriage of justice. I may or may not know some folks who fires might have got onto fed land, and no one gave a single f@*k and no one went to jail.
Bundy had a legitimate gripe loosing his AUM's so some fatcat could build condo's, solar project, whatever without due process or compensation by a department that lack checks and balances it should have. He should have kept paying and kept grazing, he would have had more support.
Hammonds got a raw deal, 5 years for burning without a permit is way over the top. It's hard to argue that there wasn't some bureaucratic overstep on feds part. Thats a problems that could have been resolved with more political pressure by the people.
The militia looks a bunch of unorganized people without a solid plan looking to get famous. It they had a clear message, and clear set of demands that were rational, they would have got more traction.
Gov Brown should have left them alone and stuck to munching carpets, her decision to allow the traffic stop made a martyr, I have a feeling someone is going to pay the price down the road. Another week or two, they would run out of beer and money and left anyway, what was the point of forcing the issue.
Just a point of information here. They had burn permits at the time of the fires. The Hammonds got the remainder of the 5 year sentence because they were prosecuted under the umbrella of an anti-terrorism law.
Just a quibble, the Anti-terrorism act took effect in 1996 and changed the penalties are certain crimes, one being arson of federal property. A "jury found Dwight Hammond guilty of one count, and Steven Hammond guilty of two counts of, Use of Fire to Damage and Destroy Property of the United States, in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 & 844(f)(1)."
They were not prosecuted under the 1996 act but rather 18 USC 2 the Act-"(AEDPA) is an act of Congress signed into law on April 24, 1996. The bill was introduced by former Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole, passed with broad bipartisan support by Congress (91-8 in the United States Senate, 293-133 in the House of Representatives) following the 1990s World Trade Center and Oklahoma City bombings, and signed into law by President Bill Clinton.[1][2]
The real issue is the mandatory minimum rather than all the other chaff.
Just a point of information here. They had burn permits at the time of the fires. The Hammonds got the remainder of the 5 year sentence because they were prosecuted under the umbrella of an anti-terrorism law.
Yes, they were convicted for arson on federal property. If that law were evenly applied, the jails would be overcrowded with farmers and ranchers. Total BS IMO and a miscarriage of justice. I may or may not know some folks who fires might have got onto fed land, and no one gave a single f@*k and no one went to jail.
I agree that it's BS, norm. Just pointing out FWIW that it was not for burning without a permit - that is all my point was.
I'll add, THAT is what the Bundy Boys should have been protesting.
Bundy had a legitimate gripe loosing his AUM's so some fatcat could build condo's, solar project, whatever without due process or compensation by a department that lack checks and balances it should have. He should have kept paying and kept grazing, he would have had more support.
Hammonds got a raw deal, 5 years for burning without a permit is way over the top. It's hard to argue that there wasn't some bureaucratic overstep on feds part. Thats a problems that could have been resolved with more political pressure by the people.
The militia looks a bunch of unorganized people without a solid plan looking to get famous. It they had a clear message, and clear set of demands that were rational, they would have got more traction.
Gov Brown should have left them alone and stuck to munching carpets, her decision to allow the traffic stop made a martyr, I have a feeling someone is going to pay the price down the road. Another week or two, they would run out of beer and money and left anyway, what was the point of forcing the issue.
Just a point of information here. They had burn permits at the time of the fires. The Hammonds got the remainder of the 5 year sentence because they were prosecuted under the umbrella of an anti-terrorism law.
Just a quibble, the Anti-terrorism act took effect in 1996 and changed the penalties are certain crimes, one being arson of federal property. A "jury found Dwight Hammond guilty of one count, and Steven Hammond guilty of two counts of, Use of Fire to Damage and Destroy Property of the United States, in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 & 844(f)(1)."
They were not prosecuted under the 1996 act but rather 18 USC 2 the Act-"(AEDPA) is an act of Congress signed into law on April 24, 1996. The bill was introduced by former Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole, passed with broad bipartisan support by Congress (91-8 in the United States Senate, 293-133 in the House of Representatives) following the 1990s World Trade Center and Oklahoma City bombings, and signed into law by President Bill Clinton.[1][2]
The real issue is the mandatory minimum rather than all the other chaff.
it seems to me, that law was intended to incarcerate someone(s) that did arson to a fed bldg or such, rather than burning sage.
[quote=Stormin_Norman]There is lot of stupid on both sides.
Bundy had a legitimate gripe loosing his AUM's so some fatcat could build condo's, solar project, whatever without due process or compensation by a department that lack checks and balances it should have. He should have kept paying and kept grazing, he would have had more support.
Hammonds got a raw deal, 5 years for burning without a permit is way over the top. It's hard to argue that there wasn't some bureaucratic overstep on feds part. Thats a problems that could have been resolved with more political pressure by the people.
Just a quibble, the Anti-terrorism act took effect in 1996 and changed the penalties are certain crimes, one being arson of federal property. A "jury found Dwight Hammond guilty of one count, and Steven Hammond guilty of two counts of, Use of Fire to Damage and Destroy Property of the United States, in violation of 18 U.S.C. §§ 2 & 844(f)(1)."
They were not prosecuted under the 1996 act but rather 18 USC 2 the Act-"(AEDPA) is an act of Congress signed into law on April 24, 1996. The bill was introduced by former Senate Majority Leader Bob Dole, passed with broad bipartisan support by Congress (91-8 in the United States Senate, 293-133 in the House of Representatives) following the 1990s World Trade Center and Oklahoma City bombings, and signed into law by President Bill Clinton.[1][2]
The real issue is the mandatory minimum rather than all the other chaff.
it seems to me, that law was intended to incarcerate someone(s) that did arson to a fed bldg or such, rather than burning sage.
No disagreement. What probably should have been at most a misdemeanor turns into 5 years under the stroke of an unintended consequence. The fault lies with congress and the President's Assistant Attorney's General. Though from the opinions and orders in the criminal and civil case the Hammond's were not without blame.
Looks like edited and unedited video feeds are up. More than ample opportunity to live through that stop. Looks as though he elected to sacrifice himself.
There was no need to shoot him. He was not a threat. Not from what I saw. Not in those conditions. Who was the shooter?
Seriously? Hands-up, to reaching for a loaded weapon?
So you saw the weapon??? That was a ambush that was not a routine traffic stop all the Feds and state police did was Waco part two. Instead of letting local law enforcement handle the routine traffic stop the state police swoop in dressed to the hilt like jack boot thugs..sad
Reaching for a loaded weapon? I didn't see that. He never drew down or brandished. I can't even see if he had a weapon. He was completely out gunned, out numbered, etc. I saw no need to use deadly force.
You tell me that's what was reported they were pulled over for a routine traffic stop..
I must have missed that reading the statement.... If so, I apologize. That said, there is no "routine" stop, certainly not after the vehicle is being pursued, swerves to avoid a spike strip, etc.
What do you figure he was doing when he put his hands down?
Who knows, he could have been disarming himself, he could been reacting to being shot, he could have been reaching for his phone, he could have been had a cramp, he could have had an injury from them crash into, the snow bank. He did not appear to be a threat. It's hard to believe that's the only footage.
You tell me that's what was reported they were pulled over for a routine traffic stop..
I must have missed that reading the statement.... If so, I apologize. That said, there is no "routine" stop, certainly not after the vehicle is being pursued, swerves to avoid a spike strip, etc.
I'll agree with "sad" and completely avoidable.
When it was first reported couple days ago the new media said it was a routine traffic stop... So a lot of that could be on the media not knowing the whole story... Why the guy drove off like that is beyond me if you are innocent give yourself up,and go to court make Feds and state prove their case... Only that fella knows why what he did...
What do you figure he was doing when he put his hands down?
Beats me why do you assume it was a pistol/firearm???
Because he appeared to be pulling something out from under his jacket.
Under the circumstances of what was happening right at that moment, I think ... cell phone? ... candy bar?
Dunno, I guess. I can't prove it was a pistol. What do you think? What does your gut tell you?
I'm sure they had reason to use force he damn near ran over a FBI agent.. So everyone was high on adrenaline.... Again could of been avoided let them all get to this town hall meeting and let the sheriff arrest these guys sometimes the easy way makes too damn much sense
The assumptions here are on both sides of the story for sure. Some assume he was reaching for a weapon, others assume he was just putting his hands down. However, the only person who controlled the outcome was the person who exited the vehicle. Get out and run with hands up then drop the hands and reach for something or scratch something, you might end up dead. Get out of the vehicle with hands raised and then walk to the front OR rear and drop to your knees, you got a pretty good chance of seeing tomorrows sunrise. His sun just set.
First off, It appears to me that he was reacting to being shot, not actually reaching for a weapon, since no weapon was brandished you can't actually say that he was reaching for a weapon.
It appears to me that this was a set up. The agent that was almost hit should not have ran in front of a car.
We will never know the truth, you people that actually support this are the actual problem with this country.
It was against the law to occupy the federal building, it was against the law to do so many things. Yet you same people support this gawd dang government when they break laws, and enforce the unjustly.
Do you same people support every brance of government having weapons, and what amounts to swat teams?
Sacrifices need to be made, actions need to be taken. I will not take it bending over like it appears some of you will.
First off, It appears to me that he was reacting to being shot, not actually reaching for a weapon, since no weapon was brandished you can't actually say that he was reaching for a weapon.
It appears to me that this was a set up. The agent that was almost hit should not have ran in front of a car.
We will never know the truth, you people that actually support this are the actual problem with this country.
It was against the law to occupy the federal building, it was against the law to do so many things. Yet you same people support this gawd dang government when they break laws, and enforce the unjustly.
Do you same people support every brance of government having weapons, and what amounts to swat teams?
Sacrifices need to be made, actions need to be taken. I will not take it bending over like it appears some of you will.
Could you make a list of the laws that you deem appropriate to break? Perhaps the circumstances as well?
Additionally, you do realize that our government is comprised, almost exclusively, of its citizens?
Oh, I am not afraid of sacrifice, I think this group of folks made a grave mistake by allowing themselves to get holed up much like Waco.
Why would a routine road block need over watch?
As far as laws go, I think the first thing that should have happened is the group of folks that recanted on their deal with the Hammonds should have been dealt with.
They held a federal building, that it is my understanding that was unoccupied, the federal government couldn't let this go because the Bundy's made sure to punch them in the mouth the last time.
Do I think these people should have acted this way, no but I am not about to fault someone for standing up for what they believe in.
The comment about being made up by citizens, I get that but these folks have forgotten that they are all citizens, who have the right to leave if this countries constitution does not fit them.
I personally believe that there are many laws that are simply put in place to do nothing more than make the government money, or track its citizens.
Background checks, pistol permits, seat belt laws just a few.
The LEO in the woods was providing overwatch for the roadblock. Turned out to be needed.
I guess part of the setup was making F'cum run from the initial traffic stop. Great choreography....jfc.
He chose that hill to die on. He had been telegraphing that intent for a while.
Exactly. He made the decision for them to shoot and it started when he ran at the first stop. If he really wanted to live, he made lots of bad choices in the last 2 minutes of his life.
The LEO in the woods was providing overwatch for the roadblock. Turned out to be needed.
I guess part of the setup was making F'cum run from the initial traffic stop. Great choreography....jfc.
He chose that hill to die on. He had been telegraphing that intent for a while.
Exactly. He made the decision for them to shoot and it started when he ran at the first stop. If he really wanted to live, he made lots of bad choices in the last 2 minutes of his life.
His choices could been better, yes that is a non question. THe problem is at the point and time he was no threat, and if a bunch of agents, with weapons drawn, can't beat a guy to the trigger if he draws a weapon they should be retired..
Anyone who watches that and can honestly say they wouldn't have taken the same shot(s), after three weeks of mall ninja posturing by YallQuieda, is either a liar, a dumbazz, or both.
The LEO in the woods was providing overwatch for the roadblock. Turned out to be needed.
I guess part of the setup was making F'cum run from the initial traffic stop. Great choreography....jfc.
He chose that hill to die on. He had been telegraphing that intent for a while.
Exactly. He made the decision for them to shoot and it started when he ran at the first stop. If he really wanted to live, he made lots of bad choices in the last 2 minutes of his life.
His choices could been better, yes that is a non question. THe problem is at the point and time he was no threat, and if a bunch of agents, with weapons drawn, can't beat a guy to the trigger if he draws a weapon they should be retired..
Quote
if a bunch of agents, with weapons drawn, can't beat a guy to the trigger if he draws a weapon they should be retired..
What, exactly are you trying to say there,..."beat a guy to the trigger"
There was no need to shoot him. He was not a threat. Not from what I saw. Not in those conditions. Who was the shooter?
He was fleeing from a stop to serve an arrest warrant. He damn near ran over a cop. He jumps out, doesn't follow orders and then his hands go to his waist, where he was known always have a sidearm.
Not a THREAT? I want some of what you are smoking. He was a huge threat. Looked like the shooter in the trees was an OSP officer who fired when he went to his waist.
There was no need to shoot him. He was not a threat. Not from what I saw. Not in those conditions. Who was the shooter?
He was fleeing from a stop to serve an arrest warrant. He damn near ran over a cop. He jumps out, doesn't follow orders and then his hands go to his waist, where he was known always have a sidearm.
Not a THREAT? I want some of what you are smoking. He was a huge threat. Looked like the shooter in the trees was an OSP officer who fired when he went to his waist.
The girl's story doesn't hold up.
Excellent summation of what I saw, also. He all but asked for this outcome and was pretty stupid, IMO.
Threaten to use firearms before this incident Run from a stop Almost run over a LEO at a roadblock Run from the vehicle Reach into his coat...furtive move by someone known to have firearms and who made threats...
Not sure how any rational man wouldn't call 2 attempts towards his jacket pocket while the subject of a felony stop at gunpoint to be furitive movements.
All the man had to do to live is keep his hands up and follow directions.
Absolutely amazing how many eye witnesses we have here, and how many would stand and hold fire until a bullet from the opposition was on the way. I'd not ever want to stand that close to the edge myself as my reactions are not that good. Also surprised that several in this group did not hustle up and enlist in such a noble effort being that everyone there were near candidates for Pope.
We're a nation of about 315 million, and anarchy only works if you're the only person in the room. Two or more, and there's going to be a problem. I reject your authority and substitute my own can't work at a national level.
Seems the Nevada boys are now suddenly respecting the authorities they were rejecting a few weeks ago and are now urging their followers to explore traditional routes. I wonder why they've suddenly changed tactics?
Hope the rest of the rats come out tomorrow, or someone wades in and rids us of those vermin.
Absolutely amazing how many eye witnesses we have here, and how many would stand and hold fire until a bullet from the opposition was on the way. I'd not ever want to stand that close to the edge myself as my reactions are not that good. Also surprised that several in this group did not hustle up and enlist in such a noble effort being that everyone there were near candidates for Pope.
We're a nation of about 315 million, and anarchy only works if you're the only person in the room. Two or more, and there's going to be a problem. I reject your authority and substitute my own can't work at a national level.
Seems the Nevada boys are now suddenly respecting the authorities they were rejecting a few weeks ago and are now urging their followers to explore traditional routes. I wonder why they've suddenly changed tactics?
Hope the rest of the rats come out tomorrow, or someone wades in and rids us of those vermin.
Think I'll take a break and relax for a bit.
Have a good one,
1 min,
thanks again for all your updates. I'm sincerely glad the townfolk, local LEO, and the refuge employees didn't get caught in a crossfire.
As for why they have changed tactics, an idea or two:
.gov has informed them if they don't play ball their families could be up on conspiracy charges.
.gov has informed them if they don't play ball they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law (longest sentences w/o parole option)
or perhaps on a more humorous note, the rough tough cowboys have a couple of very large new friends with lots of jail "artwork" and creepy smiles as roommates!
I think, stressed:my perception, is that he believes the Agents/Troopers should have let him draw.......again, my opinion of what he wrote.
George
Oh, I get it,....than Roy Rogers shoots the gun out of his hand,...grazes his wrist lightly, or some such.
Silly me for not catching that.
GTC
Mr Cross,
a hale and hearty hello to you this evening.
What, no lassos (riatas for those so inclined) around the upper torso pinning his arms so he can't get to his backup. After being grazed by Roy of course.
I sure wish they'd bring back the old ways. This tactical stuff is so blase.
Lavoy is lucky he didn't get others in the truck killed.
And, the 18 year old whose audio was posted lied. Who posted that as fact?
well, she was like only 18 and like she was scared like and she like saw it all like sorta, but like she could only see where he was with his hands up like, and the cops were like............
ironbender,
I'm not sure she lied, maybe she just doesn't have a clue.
hope you're enjoying your winter up there in the frozen north.
Geno
PS, true about no one in the truck getting roasted. Very lucky.
The vacation club G-men said they are all the rage, those lying pigs....go figure...
Note to self:
If you pull up to a roadblock and the G-men look like they just returned from a raid on bin Laden's compound you should not fuuck around because there is a 99.9% chance they will shoot you.
Those mutherfuuckers know how to dress up straight TACTICAL, I bet the cocksuuckers up in the chopper were even TACTICAL. These ass clowns do not mess around, hell it's their god damn job to get TACTICAL!
1minute, go buy those bad asses some gluten free tactical donuts.
After watching the videos and then reading the comments here, I will never again wonder how/why blacks (especially) go off the deep end.
"Aw, LAWD! Dey din' hav' ta shoot 'm! He wuz a gud boy an' a-turnin' hiz life 'round. He dindo nuffin, an' he din' eben haf hiz gun in hiz hans. Dey jus' shot him down like a DAWG, an' he din' eben get ta pull hiz gun...." and on and on and on.
They, like some others clearly on here, see only what they want to see and even when they see something different, they can't admit to themselves what they are actually seeing.
There's about 50 versions of the take down floating. All the way from he was already injured by an airborne shooter before he exited the rig (obvious holes in the roof) to they sent the body off to be refined due to it's lead content.
Still have a bunch of occupiers that were released and some new arrivals from other out of state malitia groups around. The occupiers staged an "FBI go home" demonstation around our local courthouse today. Locals staged a counter "Malitia go home" rally at the same time and place with boths sides hurling insults at one another. Was off splitting wood for a newly widowed lady, so I did not attend and don't know who went the loudest and longest.
Still 4 hold outs at Refuge headquarters trying to leverage a free pass if they come out. Rumor has it phone and webb access has been chopped for them, so no more recruiting or feeds to social media. Probably very quiet down there now. They'll get a free pass when pigs fly.
With the 4 holdouts and the new malitia arrivals, we've still got a huge LEO presence about. Guess the occupiers are circulating petitions to recall our sheriff, county administrator (judge), some county commissioners, and have some new candidates filling to replace them. Haven't been approached yet for a signature, but will enjoy the opportuntiy if it comes. Signed, Elmer Fudd.
No changes in our local situation that I'm aware of.
Rumored that Fed LEO's rotated out and new batch arrived.
One of our residents (retired fire chief) that consumed the occupier Kool aide posted a letter to our governor and a lesser official letting them know the FBI presence in Burns, Oregon is actually a plot by France via the World Bank and through the UN to assume power and take over the US. They're not the real FBI but a foreign militia. He asked for local sheriff and National Guard support to thwart the pending attack. Wish I had a link to that one. I'll see if I can track it down. I personally think it's aliens from our yet to be discovered planet.
Also, seems the occupiers and LDS church have some common history or buddies.
Interesting times, but I wish it was all staged elsewhere. Passed one of the local motels that's attracting the displaced occupiers this AM. Lots of out of state pickups, a few with utility trailers behind, folks in the parking lot with a finger in one ear and phone to the other, and a heaping pile of firewood tossed out in the parking lot. Maybe a Weenie roast and Kumbaya session scheduled this evening. What a bunch of f---ing losers.
Rumored the group might go to Halfway, Oregon. A much smaller and secluded community where they just might have the numbers to take over the town. I pray not, as I'd not wish this bunch on anyone. Well maybe Fireball.
No changes in our local situation that I'm aware of.
Rumored that Fed LEO's rotated out and new batch arrived.
One of our residents (retired fire chief) that consumed the occupier Kool aide posted a letter to our governor and a lesser official letting them know the FBI presence in Burns, Oregon is actually a plot by France via the World Bank and through the UN to assume power and take over the US. They're not the real FBI but a foreign militia. He asked for local sheriff and National Guard support to thwart the pending attack. Wish I had a link to that one. I'll see if I can track it down. I personally think it's aliens from our yet to be discovered planet.
Also, seems the occupiers and LDS church have some common history or buddies.
Interesting times, but I wish it was all staged elsewhere. Passed one of the local motels that's attracting the displaced occupiers this AM. Lots of out of state pickups, a few with utility trailers behind, folks in the parking lot with a finger in one ear and phone to the other, and a heaping pile of firewood tossed out in the parking lot. Maybe a Weenie roast and Kumbaya session scheduled this evening. What a bunch of f---ing losers.
Rumored the group might go to Halfway, Oregon. A much smaller and secluded community where they just might have the numbers to take over the town. I pray not, as I'd not wish this bunch on anyone. Well maybe Fireball.
I'm wondering how many of those tactical guys were full time FBI?
The Federales use those "contractors" in other agencies.
You know the type. Spec. Ops, Navy Seals, and the like that are now in the private sector.
Those guys are hammers, and everything looks like a nail as WWZ said...
SLM and Wages, Holy Fuuck, those G-men girl scouts are nasty, super nasty....
That's all I'm gonna say, pretty sure they have my internet bugged so just a heads up.
So pizzed I missed all the cockus footage from last night.
PS: Hopefully the cows didn't get too hungry. I mean this government stuff takes forever, God those G-girls sure can milk a job..... (if you know what I mean hehehe, Wages will get it for sure, pretty sure he's been interrogated a time or two).
thought your wife mighta "taken care of you" and you were hog bait after seeing a van load of Girl Scouts and leaders coming for a visit with you.
Geno
PS, you got black socks, high ones, to go with those sandals, right. It's how folks on the beach know "you're not from around here, are ya". We wouldn't want you getting confused for a west or east coast type, it just wouldn't do around here.
After watching the videos and then reading the comments here, I will never again wonder how/why blacks (especially) go off the deep end.
"Aw, LAWD! Dey din' hav' ta shoot 'm! He wuz a gud boy an' a-turnin' hiz life 'round. He dindo nuffin, an' he din' eben haf hiz gun in hiz hans. Dey jus' shot him down like a DAWG, an' he din' eben get ta pull hiz gun...." and on and on and on.
They, like some others clearly on here, see only what they want to see and even when they see something different, they can't admit to themselves what they are actually seeing.
hehehehe, it's always someone's else's fault...just like the queers.
thanks, I don't do facebook so without guys like you to relay this stuff I never would have seen that.
Pretty telling, although he does say he's basing what he knows of the end on what the others have told him. His description of the first stop sounds pretty logical, including his rough handling about which he says "but I would to".
He sounds like a reasonable person. I'm sure others will have a differing opinion.
Basically, don't wanna get shot? don't run from a felony stop.
Geno
PS, hope you, your wife, and the folks in the area can get back to normal soon (as normal as one can be that lives in Burns )
Still have lots of occupiers roaming about in the community. Latest deal is they have some sort of self proclaimed judge who's proposing a 25 member grand jury to take over administration and law enforcement in the county. Going after our county officials and sheriff.
Quote
"The self-proclaimed common law judge, Bruce Doucette, owns a computer design and repair store near Denver, the Oregonian newspaper reported.
He told the paper that 25 locals would hear and decide the case in private but he would publicly release their findings. Wednesday, a spokesman for Doucette said a grand jury could form within a week and hold a trial. Michael Emory said the Doucette would act in a supervisory role, and that citizens in the jury would decide if officials should be arrested. He wouldn’t go into details as to how the detainment process would work."
Another tangent to harass anyone contrary to their line of thinking is to get as much identifying info as possible on offenders, and then file liens against their property.
Obviously those can eventually be proven bogus, but during all of the interim fillings/appeals etc, ones credit references will be affected as well as any attempts to secure loans or sell ones property.
To that affect, I suspect this whole occupier deal has devalued our community by at least 30%. Fewer will be inclined to move here, and those that might want to leave for a more settled environment will have a tougher time selling. Another rumor circulating is that a buyer locked in for our now off-the-air radio station backed out of the deal on signing day. Local news is pretty much limited to social media, and that delivers more versions of events than one can take in in a day.
If one wants to come over and support the occupiers, here's a link to their cause and propaganda Patriots ??? Link
Also, some real interesting takes on things. There's a few with serious mental defects out there.
There is no explaining the thought process that leads these idiots to think they can come in from outside and replace duly elected officials, arrest the lead FBI officer, etc. I am sorry your community has to go through this. The bright spot is that this has exposed these nuts for what they are. The general American public is getting a look at them, and they don't like what they see.
[/color]After watching the videos and then reading the comments here, I will never again wonder how/why blacks (especially) go off the deep end.
[color:#33FF33]"Aw, LAWD! Dey din' hav' ta shoot 'm! He wuz a gud boy an' a-turnin' hiz life 'round. He dindo nuffin, an' he din' eben haf hiz gun in hiz hans. Dey jus' shot him down like a DAWG, an' he din' eben get ta pull hiz gun...." and on and on and on.
They, like some others clearly on here, see only what they want to see and even when they see something different, they can't admit to themselves what they are actually seeing.
Is it okay I read that in Ali's, Frazier taunting voice?
![[Linked Image]](http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/2minutes/Critters2/Supplies_zpsqgtebjqb.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/2minutes/Critters2/Blackie_zpsxf7ema7c.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/2minutes/4x4-2.jpg)
) There will be consequences to be paid.
![[Linked Image]](http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/2minutes/Critters2/BOwl1_zpsn5ivls2b.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/2minutes/6By.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/2minutes/Crittters1/Snows04_zpsyaocll5q.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/2minutes/Critters2/Challenger_zps6dxiaqa5.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e98/watch4bear/12573747_964779210223780_4182313175948991331_n_zpsv9vewnao.jpg)
