My daughter will soon be transitioning from one school to another (where do the years go?). She is also already looking at colleges. So, I made a few phone calls recently. I thought the differences were extraordinarily stark.

The questions asked of each school/college/university were exactly the same. "Can we come for a visit and a campus tour, and if so, what can we see and how do we arrange that?"

Private high school answer - "Absolutely. Please contact _________ at _________. They will be happy to arrange that visit at your convenience and talk to you about what classes and facilities you want to see while here."

Private college answer - "Absolutely. Please contact ______ at _________. They will be happy to arrange that visit at your convenience. If your daughter already has an interest in a certain subject, we'll make sure to try to get her into those classes and talk with the professors. Any facilities here at the college can be toured, so just let us know what she wants to see."

Public university answer - "Absolutely. We have campus tours twice per day; one in the morning and one in the afternoon. You are welcome to sign up for any tour that fits your schedule. If you would like more information or a more specific tour after that, then we're happy to arrange one for you and your daughter."

Public high school answer - "No, we don't allow tours and certainly not anyone who is not an enrolled student into the classrooms. You may come by the school and arrange a visit, but you will be restricted to the guidance office. If there is an athletic event you would like to attend, you may buy a ticket and see those facilities while the event is taking place. Unfortunately, we cannot allow you or your daughter, even accompanied, to enter any of the rest of the school while students are here and not to disrupt the classes in session. It's for the safety of our students."

I remarked to the public high school that their answer was markedly different from the private school, and from both the private college and public university. The answer was "those are our rules; it's for the safety of our students". I asked how my daughter and I were supposed to know whether that school would be a good fit for her, and the answer was "she can enroll here and then be part of our student body, we're sure she'll fit". I finally said that talking with them compared to the others made it seem like I was interviewing a prison for my daughter, not a school. That got a very grudging "yes, I know and I'm sorry" reply.

There you have the weak link in the education process

This is a result of the school administration interpreting mandates for student safety in the narrowest manner. I taught in a small rural elementary. Years ago we had occasions like Grandparents Day where grandparents were allowed to visit the school and have lunch with the kids. They were even allowed to sit in the classroom during class if there were empty seats available. Then the government started passing knee jerk rules and laws on student safety after columbine and other school shootings. My last principal decided the only way to obey the laws was to keep all parents and grandparents out of the building. He had to choose between common sense and idiotic rules.

That did away with having room mothers and other benefits to the school. Parents were no longer allowed to walk their kids to class or talk to the teachers in the hall. School and community relations took a dump as the result.

Quoting 4Ager, "I finally said that talking with them compared to the others made it seem like I was interviewing a prison for my daughter, not a school. That got a very grudging "yes, I know and I'm sorry" reply."

What a sad state of affairs.

You can be sure that this school has no shooting team. Your daughter will be kept safe because no one is allowed to wear a USMC t-shirt. At the nearby elementary school, there will be severe disciplinary action against any child who chews his poptart into a gun shape. Your daughter will be safe because pointing a banana at someone will result in expulsion from school.

Like 'most' everything else that is .gov run, they've forgotten who ultimately funds them.

They do not want "outsiders" seeing the way they teach now days. Common Core does not go well with adults, it is meant for the impressionable minds of students.

I am so glad my daughter went early college instead of standard high school.

It started way before Common Core. The school shootings of the late 1980s and early 1990s caused legislatures to pass Zero Tolerance and school safety laws. I still remember the day that the superintendent came to speak to the student body and inform them that knives were no longer allowed under zero tolerance. As soon as he said it, half my students started pointing at me. I smiled and reached into my pocket and handed him my knife. He looked at it, smiled and handed it back to me.

For the first twenty or so years that I taught, I normally had a firearm in my vehicle on school grounds. There was no time to go home from work and get my hunting gear if I wanted to hunt that afternoon. Suddenly it was a felony and I would lose my job if caught.

We went to our daughter's public school, a building that they build as an annex to the existing building. Back to school night, parents wondering aimlessly looking for rooms, etc. I said, it'd be nice to have a map or layout, so we can see what the school has to offer, where the heck we are going, etc. The answer:

"Oh no. We aren't allowed to print maps of the building. for the safety of our students." Right away I thought of Jason Bourne reading the emergency exit maps posted on the walls, as he was trying to escape a hotel in Paris. It's a crazy world we live in.

I have a call into another public high school in the area to see if the insanity is systemic or isolated. I have a pretty good guess as to the answer.

EXACTLY why government needs to be OUT of schools. Seems as if most places the majority of property taxes are for schools. Screw that.

You want the little bastards, you pay for the little bastards.

I think most parents would rather have those taxes back, so they could select a school of their choosing. No argument here.

Oh, amen to that.

FWIW, the second public HS that I called said they could arrange a visit and tour of the school while classes were in session, but still no entering classrooms (disrupting classes, etc.). It seems to be a school-by-school issue based upon each school's administration.

The principals and other administrators look at the same mandates and translate it into "How can I keep from being sued." So results vary according to the degree of common sense the principal has or does not have. The problem is compounded by the increasing percentage for female principals.

The public schools have become like high security prisons, with all doors locked all the time, magnetic access cards to enter, security cameras covering almost every square inch of the exterior and hallways, gyms, and cafeterias. 'Lock-down' drills and actual lock-downs if something happens within several miles around.

I recently retired from the maintenance department in the largest school system in Ohio, and have seen the schools become steadily more oppressive fortresses.
The massive over-kill in 'security' has been brought on by a few intrusive shootings in other schools, but instead of simply solving the problem by allowing teachers, parents and other visitors to carry a gun, we now have multiple layers of 'security' and 'gun free' zones.

I don't really see much hope for anything to change any time soon.

Rant over,

Myron

P.S.: I should add that Ohio has amended it's law to allow teachers and others to carry in schools, but it is still up to the school district whether to allow it or not, and most still have their heads firmly up their azzes and won't allow it.

Good OP by 4ager - important topic - thanks.

The degredation has been gradual and steady - pernicious to the point where many schools are suffering with regard to their core purposes. I agree that government intrusion and resulting rigidity has become significant part of the current problem - and remedial steps will be required to stop the slide down past mediocrity in many school situations.

BUT - a basic enabler - and in many cases a cause - of the above has been a serious decline in leadership commitment and courage on the part of school superintendents COUPLED with the fact that most parents do not properly involve themselves and assert their ownership and diligent oversight of public schools.

The great public schools in this country - large and small - urban and rural - were built upon strong local funding/control and local assertion. Effective leaders in the form of superintendents and pricipals, and excellent teachers, were the expectation and the norm. This has been lost, and many schools are plagued by "I don't care" teachers and "go by the regs" leaders. It has been a downward spiral.

One could cite the negative role of teacher unions, politically aspiring school board members, folks who did not want to be excellent teachers and who were then turned into cookie-cutter type adminsitrators by state college masters degree programs, influence of our degrading mod culture and social media, etc., etc., etc. - but for what good?

Any real fix, and removal of deleterious government influence, will have to start with local initiative and control - parents and citizens who care enough to do the work. It takes guts, and time, and persistence.

"It's for the well-being and safety of our students"

Sean - you should have asked if it would help your access if you carried concealed.



Nevermind, they would have traced the call and called SWAT.

I think it will vary by location and school board considerably. If you are in a large, primarily, democrat ran city, you'll get that. The state will matter too. I would be surprised if you wold have heard that in Des Moines, but might be surprised and it would be a big surprise.

I only had one kid in public schools for a couple years by her choice/demand. She rebelled at that stage and we went through hell with her. The admin was great and very helpful and supportive to us. She's back on track and her typical great-kid self, but it happens.

I'm actually surprised you got an apology for their draconian policy. Seems the lady providing the answers had some contact with reality.

I'm so old that I remember one of my classmates bringing his deer rifle into the high school. The principal noticed, and asked him why. The answer was that the student was leaving for the deer hunt right after school, the locks on is pickup were broken, and he wanted to keep the rifle safe in his locker. The principal allowed that that made sense, and asked if he could keep it in the office instead. And that's what they did.

Nobody thought much about it, and nobody was the least bit worried about being shot.

Parents could stroll in to bring forgotten sack lunches or books, and students often went off campus for lunch. As long as they were back in time for class, no problem.

That was in Idaho, and a long time ago.

My kids are younger than the one in he OP. The price we pay for tuition for pre-K and 2nd grade at a private school stings more than a bit. That said its the only complaint I have so far and for that am happy. Things like described in the OP is the reason why plus things important to my wife and I can be taught at a private school that can't be taught in a public school. When I started college one thing I noticed is that the kids from private schools made the adjustment to college much faster on average. Plus, when mom and dad are paying a healthy sum for even grade school they have, generally, higher expectations for their kids and the the faculty/institution.

What you are seeing is the difference between institutions that actually want your student, and an institution that has evolved into government subsidized daycare that thaks orders from a bureaucracy.

Fixed it.

Best advice I can give is to avoid public education if you can afford otherwise. And most of us can afford otherwise if our priorities are straight.

CCCC,

"the fact that most parents do not properly involve themselves"

That is a big and important part of it.

My daughter was teaching in a middle school where there were quite a few failing or disruptive students. The parents who really needed to show up for PTO night didn't, and multiple calls from her to the parents were ignored and not returned.

Myron

A sorry state. My kids are in public elementary schools and we can go have lunch with them and go sit in on a glass too if we want.

denton,

"Parents could stroll in to bring forgotten sack lunches or books, and students often went off campus for lunch. As long as they were back in time for class, no problem."

I am perhaps older than you and that was my experience exactly. School lunch was a quarter, so a bunch of us would take our quarter and go up the street to "Pop's" Sunoco and get a couple of candy bars, a small bag of chips, and a pop, and eat junk food for lunch.
Never seemed to have any adverse effects. Unfortunately, those days are long gone.

Myron

I went to high school in the late 90's. We got a new principal. The first days of school, he made the rounds, introduced himself to each 1st hour class, asked if we had any questions. One of the girls asked 'can we still carry knives?' He reached in his pocket and pulled out a full sized Case Trapper, "Like this? yeah, thats fine".

At some BS conference I attended at a neighboring school a few months later (that got me out of class for the day), a vice principal came up to me in the dark auditorium, while a presentation from the stage was going on, "Hey, you got a knife on you?" "Uhhh, yeah, why?" He took it back to another teacher, and they used the tip of my knife as a screwdriver to fix somebodys glasses. I didn't feel right griping at them for dinging up my blade.

Absolutely. We're paying for schooling my twins don't get, lunches they don't eat and buses and they don't ride while my wife schools them. I'd love to have back the tax money I've paid in, but not benefitted from.

Seems like it was only a few years ago when you posted a photo of your wife and daughter on your wedding day. Dang dood, you are getting old!

Good luck with your choice of schools.

I have been impressed how my three son's did well in multiple schools in the US and abroad. Resilience. I have no idea how it might have been with a daughter though I know many expats, non-US, (hint there) that had their's do fine.

Considering most non-US are socialists to begin with, it would make sense that they would have no problems doing whatever the government says.

The weak link is an uncontrolled legal process that has parents looking to play lawsuit lottery over every issue. Put a leash on the legal system and of course, get the liberals out of the building (start at the federal level) and we can have our public schools back again.

kwg

Schools being off limits for the "safety of the children" has two real goals. One to try and protect the School from Liability suits and two to Keep the parents in the dark about what is happening in the schools. The actual safety of the "Children" is irrelevant.
Here safety things are fairly loose and schools are paid for by mining and land lease money instead of direct taxes. Our local high school even allows the baccalaureate service to be held at the school with local Pastors and Priests speaking.

My kids go to public school, and I'm invited to attend their classes at any time I choose. Once a teacher tried to keep me out of the class, and she's been fired.

As several here note, the problems are far from universal - some schools in some places continue to function very well and sensibly - but the overall public school trend has been bad and seems to be worsening. I would venture a guess that the leaders of most public schools that are doing very well would also admit that goverment regs - especially the USDE/fed intrusion - is detrimental and wasteful in the overall sense.

I still stand on the belief that strong local control and responsiveness to highly interested/involved parents is the best medicine.

We moved to a new city when three of our kids were in grades K-8 and they started into what was supposed to be one of the top two school districts in that state. Soon we observed (through the kids) that quality emphasis and high expectations were largely absent in their classrooms, that teachers were teaching to the mediocre and semi-interested students, and that our kids were going to go unchallenged to the point of possible boredom.

We took this issue to the principal - no support there, and no changes. We took it to the superintendent - same kind of response - zero concern. We yanked them out of that school district (endured a lot of bureacratic resistance and foot-dragging) and my wife home schooled the kids. That was in the early 1970s when home schooling was rare and strange, so by quite a few we were looked upon as weirdo pariahs. That attitude soon changed when some interested parents (in the neighborhood and also in our church) saw the differences.

I was deep in the public education field at the time and did not wish to pull that plug - but my wife and the kids were correct and persistent. I will not bore others with the resultant details but our family certainly did the best thing.

Parental interest and involvement - local control and stiff accountability.

The implementation of 'standardized testing' or whatever it is called has eliminated any meaningful teaching and learning. This is mandated by Federal and State laws that government has no business in.

Now teacher's and student's time is consumed by 'teaching to the test' and useful instruction in traditional subjects is lost.

Whatever happened to having to pass certain subjects to be able to move to the next grade or graduate ?

This whole system is just dead wrong, but the public isn't involved enough in their kid's education to get outraged and demand change.

Rant over again,

Myron

Where have you lived/worked outside the US to offer an experienced view? One without child and only recently without wife...

I just switched schools for my kids and this is EXACTLY what happened. In the old school, my wife used to eat lunch once a week with my boys in the cafeteria. When we asked about that in our new school, they looked at us like we were crazy. We are currently looking at other options.

A large part of the decline of our schools can be traced to the rise of progressive fascism. They use the schools to indoctrinate children and thereby creating new progressive fascist voters.

A core goal of progressive fascism it the destruction of individualism and replacing it with government. The people don't need to have weapons the police will defend them. It's even so bad that no one can bring pictures of guns into schools because they are "against every form of violence". I wonder how long it will take till they start burning the books with pictures of guns or that tell about guns used in war?

Small world.

I didn't get out of school until 9pm this evening.

Parent tours for next year's incoming students.

I'm otherwise pretty sure you could tour the school here, but prob'ly not interrupting classes.

However I often meet with parents on campus right after school gets out.

I can do the same any time I wish as well. And the teachers are always open and willing to have parent helpers in the classroom, playground, field trips etc...of course hardly any ever show up for this, as it makes it easier to bitch how the schools are all [bleep] up.

Ask most any teacher and they'll tell you the lack of cooperation, communication, and follow thru on the parents part is the biggest obstacle they face.

Maybe some of you oughta go spend a day on your local high school campus. You'd be appalled at the kids behavior and sense of entitlement. Where do you think that's learned?

Good post.

OTOH one of our local feeder middle schools has had two stabbings occur in the parking lot in the years I've been where I am. But it weren't the kids responsible......

In both cases it was altercations between parents

The same place where the principal was wearing a bullet proof vest for a period of time while on after-school duty outside the school due to credible threats.

We recently had an ex-con parent brandish a handgun in the neighborhood when his kid was caught at vandalism by a property owner, everyone knows it happened, complainants were too scared to take it further. Same guy is said to be obliging his teenage niece to turn tricks, can't prove that either.

What would one do if parents like THAT expected to just up and walk around on campus?

Can't keep 'em out on suspicion.

Birdwatcher

You're right, WTF do I know. Though I'd lay off the parent thing, since you obviously ain't been around for a bunch of it, though I'm sure your kids are all the better for it.

Now, that comes across as rather snarky.

EXACTLY

I was in private school for 9 years... when we moved to teh country there was no choice.

I did not see the same education topics we had in 8th, until I was in the 12th of public. It was a sad public education for the most part...

not sure how things are done in places other than Florida, but here, for public schools, you pretty much go where you are zoned to go, by where you live.
They don't have much reason to help you make a decision, since where you live decides where your child goes to school.
Colleges, both public and private, are different, as are private k-12 schools. They have to compete for students, and are more accomodating.

Sucks to be in FL. In Colorado you can choice into any school into the state.