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Posted By: Scott F A Court Case We Should Follow. - 04/30/16
Updated: Social media has been busy since Wednesday’s revelation by several news agencies around the country, including WXIN in Indianapolis, that a convicted Indiana burglar is now suing the homeowner who shot him just over two years ago.

This is not the first time such a lawsuit has been mounted. About four years ago in California, a burglar who was shot four times by a 90-year-old homeowner also filed a lawsuit. The good news in that case was that the burglar, described as a drug-addicted felon with prior offenses, pulled a life sentence for attempted murder because he shot the homeowner once and then tried to shoot him again with the homeowner’s empty gun.

The Indiana case involves a man identified as David A. Bailey, 31. Published reports say he pleaded guilty to "a related burglary charge last year," but now is contending that he never entered the property of David McLaughlin, the homeowner who shot him.

According to a piece by Jonathan Turley that is a worthy read, "This falls into a long controversial area of torts. The common law does not allow the use of force calculated to cause serious bodily injury or death in protection of property."

Making this case even stranger is that McLaughlin was convicted of criminal recklessness in September 2014. He was sentenced to 60 days in jail and four months of home detention, according to KTLA News.

“My client thinks it’s outrageous and I tend to agree. You don’t ordinarily expect someone to burglarize you and turn around and sue you for damages.”—Defense attorney Brian Pierce

This case could open a can of worms for lawmakers across the country if the public starts demanding changes in state laws to prevent such lawsuits. The argument in favor of such legislation would seem to be pretty straightforward: If a burglar was in a place where he should not have been he would not get shot.

Millions of law-abiding American citizens own firearms for home and personal defense. Do these citizens not have the right to protect their property from theft? One of the most popular decals ever marketed by the Second Amendment Foundation reads: “The owner of this property is armed and prepared to protect life, liberty and property from criminal attack. There is nothing inside worth risking your life for!”

McLaughlin’s attorney, Brian Pierce, is quoted in various stories observing, “My client thinks it’s outrageous and I tend to agree. You don’t ordinarily expect someone to burglarize you and turn around and sue you for damages.”

The attorney was quote by KTLA adding, “I think the claim is absurd. In Indiana, every homeowner has a right to defend their property and that may include using a firearm.”

According to the Muncie Star Press yesterday, the lawsuit contends that Bailey was in the alley behind McLaughlin’s home. McLaughlin allegedly “exited his residence and began firing his weapon into the air in response to a security alarm sound in his garage.” It was as Bailey was running down the alley that he was hit in the left arm, resulting in “serious and permanent damage.”

Many might argue that Bailey is lucky he didn’t suffer even more permanent damage. Being shot dead is rather permanent. Still, burglary is not a capitol offense, and Turley noted that Bailey's lawsuit claims he "never entered the defendant’s garage for the purpose of stealing property.”

In his column, Turley wrote, "Indiana has a castle doctrine law but it is subject to greater restrictions when you are off your property. It allows you to 'Stand Your Ground' but pursuit raises legal dangers as in this case." The column provided statute language to explain this.

Apart from the reported history of this case, is it wise or acceptable to fire at someone who is apparently fleeing from the sound of an alarm, as Turley's column discusses? Remember Vice President Joe Biden's advice about firing a shotgun in the air to frighten burglars? At least one Washington man who used the "Biden defense" lost in court.

Several years ago, Colorado became infamous for its so-called “Make My Day” law. It’s also known as the “Castle Doctrine.” State laws vary considerably. Some states have a “duty to retreat.” Other states have “stand your ground” laws. Washington really has neither, instead relying on a string of court rulings that have held there is no “duty to retreat” if someone is attacked in a place he or she has a right to be.

If the question were put up to a public vote, which way would it go? Disregarding the merits of the Indiana case, should homeowners be immune from civil liability if they shoot burglars?

http://www.examiner.com/article/indiana-burglar-sues-homeowner-who-shot-him
It's getting out of hand...My Tagline explains how I feel about things like this.

In Ca you can go to Jail or get Sued for just brandishing a Plastic Toy Gun against a would be Attacker or Car Thief to scare them away.
If a homeowner legally uses deadly force to protect themselves and/or family they should be immune from civil suits.

They would be in Michigan...
Originally Posted by AJ300MAG
If a homeowner legally uses deadly force to protect themselves and/or family they should be immune from civil suits.

They would be in Michigan...


That should be the case in ANY criminal vs civil case anywhere in the US.
Originally Posted by rost495
Originally Posted by AJ300MAG
If a homeowner legally uses deadly force to protect themselves and/or family they should be immune from civil suits.

They would be in Michigan...


That should be the case in ANY criminal vs civil case anywhere in the US.


Pretty sure the US Constitution upholds this concept too.
Posted By: pal Re: A Court Case We Should Follow. - 04/30/16
Originally Posted by Bugout4x4
...In Ca you can go to Jail or get Sued for just brandishing a Plastic Toy Gun against a would be Attacker or Car Thief to scare them away.


Anyone stupid enough to rely on a plastic toy gun, for self defense, should go to jail only after a thorough beat-down.
Originally Posted by pal
Originally Posted by Bugout4x4
...In Ca you can go to Jail or get Sued for just brandishing a Plastic Toy Gun against a would be Attacker or Car Thief to scare them away.


Anyone stupid enough to rely on a plastic toy gun, for self defense, should go to jail only after a thorough beat-down.



somebody needs to beat down the legislators that passed that into law.


work all your life to raise a family and have a few things, how on God's green earth can any man say you're civilly liable for endeavoring to protect either?


I hate politicians, ones with a liberal stripe, I really loathe them.
Originally Posted by AJ300MAG
If a homeowner legally uses deadly force to protect themselves and/or family they should be immune from civil suits.

They would be in Michigan...



They are also immune if the perp is room temperature and no longer able to sue......
Originally Posted by Bugout4x4
It's getting out of hand...My Tagline explains how I feel about things like this.


Our ancestors got pissed off at King George III for quartering his troops in our homes and a thief is less welcome than a redcoat.....
Only toy gun laws in California are directed towards all the kids getting shot by cops. As to brandishing, doesn't make any difference whether its real or a toy... if its against the law to brandish a real gun, its against the law to brandish a toy gun in the same situation! Same as it is for a criminal to use a toy gun in robbing a bank or in an assault.

Phil
We need to ban toy guns! shocked
Originally Posted by Scott F
Updated: Social media has been busy since Wednesday’s revelation by several news agencies around the country, including WXIN in Indianapolis, that a convicted Indiana burglar is now suing the homeowner who shot him just over two years ago.


Dead men do not sue.

Therein lies the lesson of the day.
If cops are going to keep wildly shooting first and ask questions later after dead, having emptying their mags, then yes we need to make toy guns recognizable... and hopefully cops will wake the hell up.

Phil
Originally Posted by ingwe
Originally Posted by AJ300MAG
If a homeowner legally uses deadly force to protect themselves and/or family they should be immune from civil suits.

They would be in Michigan...



They are also immune if the perp is room temperature and no longer able to sue......


And their is the key.
Originally Posted by Greyghost
Only toy gun laws in California are directed towards all the kids getting shot by cops. As to brandishing, doesn't make any difference whether its real or a toy... if its against the law to brandish a real gun, its against the law to brandish a toy gun in the same situation! Same as it is for a criminal to use a toy gun in robbing a bank or in an assault.

Phil


No disrespect to you, Phil, but I'm sorry to see anyone having to live in that state now. I lived there back in the 60's and 70's , it was a wonderful place then, no longer , every time I see something like this it makes me think of Communist Russia.
Posted By: BMT Re: A Court Case We Should Follow. - 04/30/16
The root of the law is the Fifth commandment--You Shall Not Kill

This is the starting point. Defense of self and family from deadly force is fine. If you need to shoot to stop deadly force--fine. But "Stop" is the key term. Once a thief is fleeing, life is not in danger, and deadly force is no longer permissible.

The eighth commandment--You Shall Not Steal -- is not a free pass to kill (or use deadly force on) a thief.

BMT
I believe you shall not murder is more precise.
My Hebrew is a bit rusty, but I've read a time or two that the proper translation is "Thou shalt not murder", a big difference.

Breaking into an occupied dwelling is a crime of violence itself. It demonstrates that one is willing to have a physical confrontation with the occupants.

Our law in WV allows us to defend ourselves anywhere we are legally entitled to be, with no need to back down. Deadly force is allowed if we believe we are in deadly peril or danger of serious, bodily harm. The law, properly followed, is a full defense against lawsuits like the one described here.

Only a total jackass would shoot someone merely to protect property, IHMO.
Originally Posted by rockinbbar
Originally Posted by Scott F
Updated: Social media has been busy since Wednesday’s revelation by several news agencies around the country, including WXIN in Indianapolis, that a convicted Indiana burglar is now suing the homeowner who shot him just over two years ago.


Dead men do not sue.

But their relatives do
Originally Posted by ingwe
We need to ban toy guns! shocked


Already done in certain places. O'course the kids simply gnaw a chicken flavored filet of protein into a gun shape and aim with that................. and get suspended from school for same. eek
Friend of mine in High School when we lived at Ft Bragg, had his dad in Vietnam... his dad was a Green Beret....

someone broke into their home, they lived off base...

he chased the guy out, being the oldest and his mom freaking out... he grabbed an Old British 303 his dad had that was WW2 vintage..

he was by his sliding glass door next to the Washer and yelled for the guy to halt, as he was in the backyard running with some of his mom's jewelry in a bag..

when he yelled at the guy, the perp stopped and fired at him with a pistol the shot hitting the washer he was next to..

like his dad taught him, he didn't fire at the torso, but shot at his leg... took off his kneecap with a 303 FMJ... police came and hauled him away ( the perp) who happened to be one of "the brothers"....aka AfroAmerican...

three months later, my buddies family get a notice that the perp is taking them to court for shooting him...his dad came back from Nam, and I think his dad's military service is why it got thrown out of court...

but at the time it both shocked and pissed many of us, that the charges even saw the light of day in court...

this was 1968...
Originally Posted by BMT
The root of the law is the Fifth commandment--You Shall Not Kill

This is the starting point. Defense of self and family from deadly force is fine. If you need to shoot to stop deadly force--fine. But "Stop" is the key term. Once a thief is fleeing, life is not in danger, and deadly force is no longer permissible.

The eighth commandment--You Shall Not Steal -- is not a free pass to kill (or use deadly force on) a thief.

BMT



You must have missed the part that if a thief be killed in the night then his blood shall not be on the one who done society a favor.
Originally Posted by rockinbbar
Originally Posted by Scott F
Updated: Social media has been busy since Wednesday’s revelation by several news agencies around the country, including WXIN in Indianapolis, that a convicted Indiana burglar is now suing the homeowner who shot him just over two years ago.


Dead men do not sue.
But their families might...
Quote


Therein lies the lesson of the day.
X2
If I read it right, the thief got shot in the alley running away.

That's not the same as inside the garage with a knife and a pillow full of stuff......

I'm not familiar with the law in that state, but in this state, I'd hesitate to shoot at anyone off my property, running away, unless they were firing a weapon.
Originally Posted by Redneck
Originally Posted by rockinbbar
Originally Posted by Scott F
Updated: Social media has been busy since Wednesday’s revelation by several news agencies around the country, including WXIN in Indianapolis, that a convicted Indiana burglar is now suing the homeowner who shot him just over two years ago.


Dead men do not sue.
But their families might...
Quote


Therein lies the lesson of the day.
X2


Wrongful death suits are largely a thing of the past. Many, many states limit the suits to $250k, or somewhere in the neighborhood.

These large "settlements" that we see these cities make are not litigious suits that would ever be awarded the amounts of money they pay.

They are extortion payments to greedy family members and sect leaders to avoid having their cities burnt.
Dead offenders can't do that. Just sayin
Originally Posted by Dutch
If I read it right, the thief got shot in the alley running away.

That's not the same as inside the garage with a knife and a pillow full of stuff......

I'm not familiar with the law in that state, but in this state, I'd hesitate to shoot at anyone off my property, running away, unless they were firing a weapon.


That's the way I read it. Running away, off of your property, hasn't stolen anything, unarmed/no immediate danger to you....I think I'd back off the trigger.
Originally Posted by pal
Originally Posted by Bugout4x4
...In Ca you can go to Jail or get Sued for just brandishing a Plastic Toy Gun against a would be Attacker or Car Thief to scare them away.


Anyone stupid enough to rely on a plastic toy gun, for self defense, should go to jail only after a thorough beat-down.
Anybody stupid enough to think that was a point of the post should stay off the internet to avoid further embarrassment.
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