I'm guessing he was a Mauser man . . . 6.5x55 (round nose) and 7x57 (pointed nose.)

Few people understand the killing power of a 25-35, Poncho was one of those...

30/06 AI

Given that The photo was taken in the teens and the Mexicans used lots of 7x57 I'm going to say they are all 7x57. The round nose bullets are probably the original 172.8 grain Spanish load. And the pointed bullets would be the 139 grain spitzer adopted by the Spanish in 1913. At that place and time, both loads would have been common.

I'd bet it's a 7x57 even though Ingwe was using it first.

Didn't Paul Mauser get his design details from Ingwe?

Ed

Poncho's known to have carried a 1910 Mauser carbine, and a 94 Winchester in 30-30.

I'm not saying that's what's in the picture, just he's know to have carried them.

From everything I've seen, he usually had either a 1910 Mauser or a 30-30 with him.

AS beat me to it

As unlikely as it seems, I believe Old Pancho is carrying two different calibers. The bandolier over his right shoulder (left side of the photo) appears to be holding 7x57's, and the one over his left shoulder (right side of photo) appears to be holding .30/06 cartridges.

I saved the photo and zoomed in. The cartridges are definitely different in length appropriate to the two rounds. The '06's have spitzer bullets while the 7mm's have round nose bullets.

Kinda defeats the rapid reload advantage of stripper clips doesn't it?

7x57

Ingwe told me so.

He took the picture.

He was trying to make the 7x57 more cool with the Spanish rebel angle.

Ingwe always liked Spanish men in leather.

It's not the cartridges "on" him while living that interest me, as much as the bullets "In" him at the time of his passing.

Well, the Poobah ain't one to boast, but he did confess to this to me one night when we was drinkin'...

I can't remember who recommended this book, but I got it on July 5th from Amazon, and just finished it last week. Now I'm hooked on reading some more books on Tom Mix. So far this is the only book that covers the four years that Mix road with Villa. Well worth the read IMHBAO!

Got to be 7x57

There is no proof whatsoever that Tom Mix "road" with Pancho Villa. Mix claimed he met Villa when he traveled in Mexico. The book is based on unsubstantiated hearsay, better known as "Hollywood hype."

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0594291/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm

Tom Mix was, however, a helluva movie star for his time, though.

L.W.

Guns of Pancho Villa

No, it DON'T.

GTC

Carabina trienta trienta!!!!!!

I'll tell ya' what, Bob,...that cancion' is best sung / played well north of Jalisco.

Damn near got lynched down there one night, playin' that on a boom box....

GTC

Speaking of Tom Mix:
(And no mention of Pancho Villa)

On the day he died, October 12, 1940, Mix was driving north from Tucson (after a liquid lunch in a roadhouse) in his beloved bright-yellow Cord Phaeton sports car. He was driving so fast that he didn’t notice–or failed to heed–signs warning that one of the bridges was out on the road ahead. The Phaeton swung into a gully and Mix was smacked in the back of the head by one of the heavy aluminum suitcases he was carrying in the convertible’s backseat. The impact broke the actor’s neck and he died almost instantly. Today, the dented “Suitcase of Death” is the featured attraction at the Tom Mix Museum in Dewey, Oklahoma.

And this:
On October 12, 1940, cowboy-movie star Tom Mix is killed when he loses control of his speeding Cord Phaeton convertible and rolls into a dry wash (now called the Tom Mix Wash) near Florence, Arizona. He was 60 years old. Today, visitors to the site of the accident can see a 2-foot–tall iron statue of a riderless horse and a somewhat awkwardly written plaque that reads: “In memory of Tom Mix whose spirit left his body on this spot and whose characterization and portrayals in life served to better fix memories of the Old West in the minds of living men.”

According to Mix’s press agent, the star was a genuine cowboy and swaggering hero of the Wild West: He was born in Texas; fought in the Spanish-American War, the Boxer Rebellion and the Boer War; and served as a sheriff in Kansas, a U.S. marshal in Oklahoma and a Texas Ranger. In fact, Mix was born in Driftwood, Pennsylvania; deserted the Army in 1902; and was a drum major in the Oklahoma Territorial Cavalry band when he went off to Hollywood in 1909.

None of these inconvenient facts prevented Mix from becoming one of the greatest silent-film stars in history, however. Along with his famous horse Tony, Mix made 370 full-length Westerns. At the peak of his fame, he was the highest-paid actor in Hollywood, earning as much as $17,500 a week (about $218,000 today). Unfortunately, Mix and Tony had a hard time making the transition to talking pictures. Some people say that the actor’s voice was so high-pitched that it undermined his macho cowboy image, but others argue that sound films simply had too much talking for Mix’s taste: He preferred wild action sequences to heartfelt conversation.

What I think is rather remarkable is filmmaker/ director D. W. Griffith (the Birth Of A Nation director) went to Mexico TWICE and made films with Pancho Villa starring as himself! Once in 1912 and again in 1914! Directed the first one. Was a producer on the second.

Remember the revolution and later civil war was in full swing at these times!

Greg! Well north of Jalisco? I imagine so!!!

Sir Frederick Russel Burnham, D.S.O. had a few dry, and somewhat pertinent comments regarding Mix's "service" in the Boer War.

Ever the gentleman, he kept it pretty light, and cut Mix LOTS of slack.

Anybody that hasn't read his "Scouting on Two Continents", SHOULD .

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Russell_Burnham

This guy was FOR REAL

GTC

One translation of that .30WCF ditty

The 30/30 carbine
Carried by the rebels
According to the Maderistas
Did not really kill

I'm off to battle with my 30/30
I entered the rebel ranks
If it's blood they ask for, blood I'll give them
For the people of our nation

Fransico Villa cried out
Where are you Argumedo?
Come and stand up in front
You, who are never afraid

I'm off to battle with my 30/30
I entered the rebel ranks
If it's blood they ask for, blood I'll give them
For the people of our nation

We've headed for Chihuahua
Your Indian saint is leaving town
If they kill me in the war
Go and mourn me on hallowed ground

I'm off to battle with my 30/30
I entered the rebel ranks
If it's blood they ask for, blood I'll give them
For the people of our nation

The assault weapon of the day - and not too shabby of a choice today!

I got half way thru it before everything turned to caca at our house! I just need to start it over!

great link, thanks for that!

especialmmente, "la carabina 30-30"

Sycamore

Villa was no hero with coastal villagers in Jalisco some years back.
....seems like the further South I went, the more lionization of Zapata, and Caranza.

I gave up trying to study the Mexican Revolution's history, out of sheer frustration and historical confusion attendant,...it damned sure didn't work.

GTC

Ok. Y'all start hating on me! But of the songs that came out of theMexican Revolution this is my fav! Adelita. You hear it played in every movie that has anything to do with Pancho Villa, The Wild Bunch, whatever. It's in every movie!
This is a decent version.

Greg,

It is extremely confusing. Probably the best they could have hoped for was the survival of Francisco Madero. But being an honorable man he fell prey to those Generals (Huerta) who had him offed.

Carranza was all for the Plan of San Diego until Wilson recognized him as the Defacto prez of Mexico. This after he (Wilson) had been communicating with Villa. Villa felt he had been betrayed.

Zapata was the original Che Guevera! Basically a Bolshie.

Thing went to caca again pretty quick.

They all ended up assassinated Huerta, Obregon, Carranza, Zapata, and Villa.
When Plutarch Cardenas came along he basically declared war on the Catholic Church. I thin he finally made it out of Mexico and exiled himself to San Antonio as a "political refugee".

Whew. About the best I can do on a very complex subject.

crossfire;
Good evening to you sir, I'm just off to try to sleep again so I'll be uncharacteristically brief.

If you've not read "Taking Chances" by FR Burnman it's a grand read too.

After looking for the books unsuccessfully for years I lucked into two new reprints in the local used book store for something under $20 each.

Anyway sir, have a good night, all the best to you and do stay safe down there in Burnnam's old stomping grounds.

Dwayne

The last ephemeral PILLAR of desperate and deluded belief that the Mex. "revolution" was in any way successful crashed and burned not all that long ago, with the Federale legislated "retirement" of the Ejido system.

Read you 5 x 5 on Zapata,...crap, there have to be at LEAST 100 ejidos named after him...and I think I've been in at least half of em'.

Figuring out what's gone down over the last 25-30 years down there is going to make the forgoing look like a cakewalk.

GTC

i had a guy tell me one time that when villa retreated south from aqua prieta, he left a dead mexican swinging in the breeze from every telephone pole south for 100miles.
I asked a mexican friend how his family got here. His father was prospecting just south of the border, unarmed, when villa's men started shooting at him, he hid in a arroyo. Figuring he was gonna die anyway he stood up and called them a bunch of chicken sh8t son's of bit8hes for shooting at an unarmed man. They were so impressed with his bravery they stopped shooting and let him go. He left for arizona the next day.
those little songs remind me of too much tequila once upon a time years ago when one is too young to know better.

Hey Dwayne !

I've got a .45-90 sitting in my safe that MAY have been fired at Burnham, by a notorious Tewksbury "Sheep Herder".

all best regards, Hoser,

GTC

I have not read Scouting on Two Continents. I read about it IIRC, in the first Guns and Ammo I ever got, when Mom subscribed to it for me in high school. There was an article about Burnham in it. Had to have been 1978.

I always loved seeing the old westerns that showed a Mexican carrying a Winchester, usually an 1892 model, with a bandolier of 45-70, 7X57, or 30-06 cartridges strung across his chest. I always figured he was just carrying his buddy's ammo for him.

This is not a factual statement. Not sure why you made it.


There are several books that mention Mix' role as a volunteer for Pancho Villa. They include:

Revolution! Mexico 1910-1920 by Ronald Adkins (John Day, New York, 1970);

Cock of the Walk; The Legend of Poncho Villa by Haldeen Braddy (University of New Mexico Press, Albuquerque, 1955);

Pancho Villa's Shadow by Ernest Otto Schuster (Exposition Press, New York, 1947);

Twenty Episodes in the Life of Pancho Villa by Elias L. Torres, the man who arranged Villa's retirement for Adolfo de la Huerta. Torres' memoir, based on his conversations with Villa, was first published in 1931. (The Encina Press, Austin, 1973)

6.5 x 55 Italian Carcano because Poncho was the shooter on the Grassy Knoll

Cock of the Walk; Qui-Qui-Ri-Quí!: The Legend of Pancho Villa
by Haldeen Braddy

A lot of the time, satiated as he must have been, Pancho grew tired of women. On these occasions real excitement proved necessary to heat him up. Gunfire, the smell of gunpowder, must have broken his thermostat and let his passion rise. In a fancy cantina one of his lieutenants gave a Federal officer's girl a wide, libidinous eye. The Federalist resented it. As the lieutenant continued to wink as well as make signs, making audaciously evident his intention to make off with the long, lissome girl, the officer suddenly drew his gun and shot the lieutenant in the mouth. By the time the dead man pitched forward. Villa had fired from under his left arm and drilled the Federalist officer cleanly through his forehead. Instantly he grabbed the girl and dragged her away to make love to her. Yes, it must have been the sight of blood that turned the fat rooster Pancho into an insane, volcanic gamecock.

What was his pasion mas grande? It was the celebrated love of Villa for a beautiful courtesan of Durango, a woman who in the end gave up her life for him. The tempestuous affair of Pancho and Adelita became the most tragic romance of the Revolution.

In a private dwelling in Parral a ravishingly beautiful young woman stood at twilight before her mirror, putting the final fluttering touches to her already perfect toilet. Her perfume smelled faint and peppery, but it endured, hanging in the air like an unseen but odorous
red carnation. Dark olive, of tall and elegant stature, she was the embodiment of Mexican beauty, her full pro- portions being such as to awaken the desire of Villa, who favored the robust type of woman. This fragrant senorita had great dark eyes and beautiful raven hair, the coils of which a rich yellow scarf bound lightly. Her soft skin kindled into flame at the caress of a masculine hand. Beneath a silken yellow blouse, there rose the firm, proud, rounded breasts of a ripening young woman. At twenty this wild animal of a girl looked like a goddess, a fiera del amor. Already betrothed to the blond Portillo,
one of Villa's loyal men, she hated to surrender her freedom without one last fling. The servants who attended her quailed before her radiance. They complimented her profusely as she pivoted on her tiny high heels before the looking glass. She was a dangerous, a terrifying, young woman, this Adelita — one who had a longing for mad adventure. The serving women, veering about her, kept up a shallow flow of chatter.

"I could almost believe you were making a conquest of General Villa tonight," a wise old tia finally said.

"Who knows, my aunt," Adelita replied coquettishly. "Look at me, tia, and tell me, do you think the General will find the famous Adelita of Durango too homely?"

At the banquet hours afterwards Adelita made a speech in honor of Pancho Villa. Throughout her talk, which ended with the expressed hope that he would become the president of the Republic, she cast her hot eyes on him.

Villa's first reaction prompted him to make an ironic comment: "This little pug-nosed cutie also thinks I long to become president."

But after being presented to her, Pancho talked alone with her in a nearby garden, surrounded by olmos and zapote trees. This time he did not make impetuous love; instead, he gazed into her volcanic eyes and told her rapidly, in an impulsive self-revelation, the torrid story
of his vengeful, fevered dreams. He had won glory as a man of quick action, on the battlefield or in the hour of love, and at the last he embraced Adelita, kissing her not unwilling lips with an open, hungry mouth. Meanwhile, a melancholy but amorous song aided his suit —
"La cantela" from the Bajio region of Michoacan — which a group of brightly-clad "Dorados" entuned in the dark distance.

I find myself a prisoner by cunning,
I find myself imprisoned by a woman.
As long as I live in the world and don't die,
Never in my life will I love again.

It wasn't the truth
That she promised me.
Everything was a falsehood.
False was the money she paid me.

We took for granted that we were trash.
Along came the whirlwind and took us up ;
And while high up in the air we flew,
The same wind blew us apart.

Suddenly a man's head peeped around a nearby zapote tree. Portillo, Adelita's betrothed, stepped into the garden just as Pancho Villa finished kissing Adelita. Villa stood there with his mouth wide open. Portillo paused, evidently torn between rage and despair ; then,
with a hopeless gesture, he pushed his gun into his own mouth and thunderously blew off the top of his head.

Villa, who had not known of Adelita's betrothal, could hardly believe his eyes as he, petrified with surprise, gazed uncomprehendingly upon the scene. Portillo had been a favorite compadre of his. They had been
like brothers. After discovering the truth, he swung around bitterly toward Adelita, roughly shook her by the arm, and commanded his men to get rid of her. When he spoke, he trembled with surprise, anger, and deep grief. "Get this woman out of here; take her somewhere, anywhere, so long as I never see her again."

The blond Portillo, the friend of Pancho, they buried in a special tomb with a pair of his grief-stricken leader's best boots beside the grave. These happenings Villa never forgot. One night a year or more afterwards, Villa grew sad with memories of the past incident. He tracked down his favorite singer, a Mexican named Ochoa, requesting him to sing something new to soothe his nerves.

Then Ochoa sang, for the first time, the mournful verses
of "Adelitar"

Adelita is the name of the young one
Whom I love and cannot forget.
In the world I have a rose
And with time, I shall pluck her.

If Adelita should be my wife,

If Adelita should be my woman,

I would buy her a silken dress

So I could take her to the barracks dance.

On and on Ochoa sang, through ten more stanzas of " Adelita/' until sadness overcame Villa. He walked aside, to a place apart from the fireside, bowing his kinky head and weeping his hard bandit tears. Triste, the memory of love was muy triste, ever so hard for a bandit to bear.

Pancho Villa's unlucky encounter with Adelita had an aftermath. Destiny allowed him to see her again, to behold once more her smoldering face, but nevermore in tempestuous love. Unknown to General Villa, she dressed herself to join his army as one of his "Dorados"
his "golden" bodyguards. One afternoon during the bloody carnage of battle, the General observed a youthful "Dorado" who wore upon his neck a silken yellow scarf with a blood-red center. After the slaughter, the incident stuck in his mind, bothering him as he walked
among the corpses to count his losses. With consternation he spotted the yellow bandana with its red center, for he had ordered his "Dorados" to remain out of the fight. Here lay one, however, who had lost his life by disobeying his orders. Villa received the most crippling impression of his life when he discovered the corpse to be that of Adelita. The girl had died heroically, fighting for her General like one of his bravest soldiers. Villa leaned over the maimed, torn body. Emotion so overcame him that he only murmured : "She was a Dorado, a Dorado."

Later on, in fond recollection and as a token of gratitude, he built a tomb for Adelita. He built it in Parral next to that of her blond sweetheart, Portillo. Years later, when he was inured to suffering, the strains of "Adelita" always brought to his face a dolorous shadow; he then had the haunted look of an homhre muy triste.

In the final picture of the amorous Pancho there appeared a lover neither malicious nor cruel to either his wives or his mistresses — if they remained faithful. He derived happiness from women, perhaps a kind of inspiration. People often alleged that he had only one
weakness, an inordinate passion for the senoritas, but this was hardly so. Pancho enjoyed the pagan trinity, wine, women, and song. He smoked and drank sparingly, but he paid time-and-a-half service to both love and music. Villa heard the sirens call, if anybody ever did; he answered them, warmly, with the melting melodies of Mexico. Las mariposas de la noche consumed much of his time, more of his money, yet they paid him a priceless return. In their company he relaxed, became a different man. Relieved of tension, of memories of the blood upon his hands, he thrilled at the sight of a smoldering female, pouring out his pent-up heartaches in gorgeous song. His technique originated in carelessness, not in force: the novelty of his absolute lack of seriousness overpowered the naive, startled maids. But the man who played thus at love had one day to rue his gaiety. He
thought that happiness came from word and woman and way; and that the word was tenderness, the woman love, and the way — Where, indeed, was the way?

Stung anew with grief, Pancho sensed to his marrow that the way had been with the sultry Adelita. The more women he loved these latter days, the more insistently he desired for them to be faithful. He who had been so unfaithful himself came now to doubt the existence of loyalty in others. He demanded what he himself did not give. Only much later did he rightly appreciate the love of his maturity, the devotion of Maria Luz Corral. Pancho paid the penalty of the gay caballero. As he grew older, he realized that in his prime he had known too many sweethearts. Now he suffered from a surfeit of what had once pleased him most. Tragedy had its hour upon the stage in his tremendous drama of human love.

In the midst of his gaiety he breathed anew the pungency of spring apple blossoms which was the perfume of Maria Luz Corral and recalled how little he deserved her fidelity. Where now were all the munequitas lindas, those little loco dolls, he had known and loved? Sweet little Cuca, of Juarez, flower of the Rio Bravo, with her
wonderful, wonderful scent of attar of roses? Tall Petra, pomegranate of Delicias, who was so passionate, so taut, tense, and madly tigerish? These days a lump came in his throat when he saw a bedraggled juvenile girl, once of the country and now of the city, go by singing her contrite song of "La pajarillaf."

You already know that I am a caged bird.
One who once happily ran through the forest
Enjoying the spring
And the perfect songs of the birds.

Or when laughter cascaded everywhere, he called to mind the vanished beauty of the dead Adelita, buried now in the rock-fenced countryside of Parral. At times when he heard the mocking notes of ''Adelita," Pancho Villa sensed a strange trouble deep inside: once, in a fleeting moment of humility, he even lit a candle in la iglesia. His bandit heart did not break; but he stirred inside with an odd kind of resentment.

Do not cry, my beloved woman ;
Do not be ungrateful to me ;
Do not make me suffer so much.

Unas Canciones

....seems fitting

Pretty sure Pancho Villa is dead. How could he be carrying anything?

What a magnificent little cartridge; one of my all time favorites.

Good morning Dwayne!

You have hit the lottery! Even the Wolfe Publishing reprints are going for over $100 and the original books are north of $200 in any condition.

I am still hoping to luck into one for less.

I hope you and yours are enjoying the summer!

Ed

Yes, you do. He was living proof that big men sometimes come in small bodies. He was only 5'4".

Ed

My wifes family is Lebanese. Her great grandfather and his brothers immigrated into the country there around the time of the revolution. The family story is that he was a gun smuggler for Villa. He would come up into texas and louisiana to "procure" guns for the revolution and get them back into mexico. When things started going south, the family members that were actually living in mexico, were told to "never come back" .

They moved into south louisiana and did well for themselves as "wholesalers".

There are a few pictures of him done up with sabers and guns sitting horseback on her grandfathers wall , I'll see if i can get a few to post next time i'm there.

My my former home town in Arkansas there's a revolver on the wall with a provenance letter tying it to Zapata. IIRC, it's a 7.5" .38-40 Colt New Service.


During the time of Villa and Zapata, you would have to consider most any cartridge, as a little of everything could be found/had in Mexico at that time. The Mexican Government had 7mm Mausers of course, but they also had a good deal of other weapons that many just don't think of. When the revolution started, the flood gates opened and most everything imaginable found its way to Mexico.

While the Mauser was THE rifle of the Mexican government, there were a lot of other guns that were in Government arsenals, including

6.5 Arisaka's
6mm Lee Navy rifles
Colt Potato Diggers
Krag's
Springfields

All of which found their way into the hands of revolutionaries.

Winchester 94's were seized in Winchester marked crates, so obviously US arms makers were doing their part to profit from the revolution. The Winchester 94 was THE rifle of the revolutionaries though. Whether procured directly from Colt, or through intermediaries, tens of thousands of them made their way into the hands of Mexican revolutionaries.

Back in the early 80's several member of the Texas Gun Collectors Assn. Worked out some kind of a deal with thMexican Govt and ATF to bring in a bunch of those 94's. Evidently from what I heard they were still tied up in bundles on shelves in police or Federal arsenals.

They were all basically relic quality. Most displayed exceptional frontier gunsmithing (ahem) repairs! Some were so damn ugly they were cool!

Go here. IMDB. This is Tom Mix's actual biography. Rode with Villa?? Hollywood hype.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0594291/bio?ref_=nm_ov_bio_sm

There are and always have been all kinds of wild azz stories floating around Hollywood. Actors made up "stuff" about themselves, agents and managers, made up "enhanced" tales and got publicity for their clients, the rumor rags printed it, stories often got bigger and bigger over the years.

Believe whatever you want. As I said, Mix was one helluva movie star.

L.W.

I'll stick with the academia published authors (references) over the Internet Hollywood anonymous source you parrot. I'm not disparaging a differences of opinion, rather your unreasearched, shoot from the hip, cock sure assertion that there was no proof that Mix rode with Villa.

As great as the M94 is, it was never a military arm, and as such it's not built like a military arm. But isn't that what's appealing. Rather than large, thick, heavy, and awkward, the M94 is slim, light, and dynamic. But unfortunately, that doesn't hold up well in a military style campaign.

Was he gay? Then it would be the .270

Only the FIRST author had to think up the lie....... the rest just repeated it.

Same as nowadays. For instance, even Wikipedia is using the book "Empire of the Summer Moon" as a source and doubling down on the mistakes in the book.

Where would any of us be without your wisdom in all things firearm related ?
....would appreciate YOUR weld procedure for '94 tangs and trigger plates of the vintage discussed.

GTC

OK,....you've convinced me that Burnham was prone to lying,....and Mix a pillar of unimpeachable truth.



...right,

GTC

I guess the canadian military didn't read that, accepting them for service in certain capacities during WWII.

Yup, Had a PCMR (Pacific Coast Militia Rangers) stamped with the "Broad Arrow".

One that I rather wish I'd hung onto.

Carried a LOT,....shot little, the thing had been loaded and unloaded so many times that a slicker action one would never find.

GTC

Don't forget the US Army did purchase 94 SRC's during the great war. They were used as secondary rifles for guard duty, train and convoy details, etc. Some are reported to have made it to France.

Well, Orange Okie, you might think that IMDB (International Movie Data Base) is some kind of shoot-from-the-hip site with no validity as to what is posted there, but you are wrong.

That said, if you go there and look up Tom Mix's movie credits, Mix began making movies in 1909. The Mexican Revolution, with Pancho Villa as a participant, began in 1910. It was over in 1920. During those ten years, here are the numbers of movies Tom Mix made.

1910 - 7 (Beginning of Mexican Revolution)
1911 - 16
1912 - 3
1913 - 34
1914 - 28
1915 - 40
1916 - 37
1917 - 12
1918 - 7
1919 - 8
1920 - 9 (End of Mexican Revolution)
1921 - 7
1922 - 9
1923 - 6 (Pancho Villa assassinated in 1923.)

Perhaps you and your vaunted authors can explain how Tom Mix could make 201 movies between 1910 and 1920 and have had the time to spend several years in Mexico "riding with Villa."

Granted some of his flicks were "shorts" meaning four reelers, etc., but no matter, Mix still had to be in Hollywood where the cameras and studios were located. There is no way I can imagine he'd have been able to take off several years and trek down to Mexico, hook up with Villa, fight Villa's enemies, and still crank out all those movies. Could not be done.

As I said, lots of myths and legends and hype and publicity enhancement in Hollywood.

L.W.

For damn sure somebody just got their ass blacked.

Thanks to everybody for the history/book references on Pancho Villa. This place is a living repository of esoteric/arcane knowledge of men and arms.

Is it true that Villa was killed by the Frito Bandito in a turf war?

well, as far as tom mix being in hollywood all those years, not so much. mix had a ranch on the today outskirts of prescott, a now housing development called yavapai estates. Their clubhouse is his old barn. He did a lot of filming in williamson valley near prescott. The old ranch has a little creek on it, perfect place to park when you are a teenager with a young lady. I saw God more than once there. He was a real cowboy tho. The road down from florence to oracle/tucson is the "tom mix" highway. Has a big sign where he augered in than gets stolen, i don't know if they put another one up. i always could kind of understand how he kilt himself on that road. large part of it is pretty straight and you can just zoom on it. Prior to the freeway being built we use to run it on our alcohol trips to mexico as teenagers.
There is an old hotel in douglas/aqua prieta, i think maybe called the gadsten. Been there since territorial days with a really good bar. Marble steps leading up to the second floor with a part of the steps being roped off, being chipped. As the story goes when villa took aqua prieta he got drunk in the bar and tried to ride his horse up those steps to the second floor. Maybe so, maybe not.
as greg knows, lot of years passed since those days, but in some ways it ain't changed much, particularly after dark. I was down in that area some years ago chasing san hill crane at about 4am in the morning. Left my damn hand gun in the truck. Never do that again. It was innocent, but i had a guy come up out of the black wanting to know what i was doing there, scared the tiddliwinks out of me that close to the border.

In very small, limited roles. And the M1 Carbine would have been a MUCH better choice. BTW, there were some US intelligence assets that used the M94 as well. That doesn't make it a military rifle.

It was fine for special purposes, but you can't expect to take a M94 SRC and drag it through 2-3 years of front line service, and have it hold up.

Hope ya'll are paying attention,....

THANK YOU for your wisdom and council, oh wisest of the wise !

GTC

Okay then, make your case. Tell me how the M94 is a military rifle.

Just an example of how the progressive element has stolen a word from the King's English.

Do tell which other WWII military rifles use very thin two piece stocks. Dovetialed in rear sights with no protection. Thin, unprotected front sights. ½ exposed thin tubular magazines (or any tubular magazines for that matter). An exposed hammer. These all sound like highly desirable features for a battle rifle.

Yo, Kevin,relax....

A.) WTF did ANY of us say it was a "Military Rifle" ?

Thanks for the inspired lecture, regardless.

...and Semper Geeking,

GTC

UHhhhhh,....we're fighting WW2 now ?

Man, this is just some oddball, completely off the wall segue in progress here.

GTC

It seems to me that in 1894 the Model '94 was pretty much state-of-the-art. And a leap ahead of what a lot of the world was still carrying.

Absolutely, PARTICULARLY when you factor in the fact that the men handling them had cut their teeth on bows and arrows, shepherd's slings, and worn out muzzle loading rubble that had ridden with Santa Ana.

GTC

So my actual point seems to have been lost thanks to crossfire-azzhat.

I never said the M94 wasn't desirable for certain jobs. What I said was it wasn't built to be a front line military rifle, and it certainly wasn't.

The mention of M94's being used in WWII is what prompted me to compare it to other WWII weapons...but you could make the same comparison to WWI or previous weapons. The design of the M94 is ideal as a sporting weapon, or general utility rifle. But those features are NOT appropriate for something that's going to serve in battlefield after battlefield, and drug around by poorly trained, often conscripted troops days on end, for years of battle. The M94 is just not going to hold up to that, because of the features I mentioned previously.

So it's NOT what any military would consider a military rifle. That doesn't mean that what it has to offer isn't desirable in certain military settings.

And the reason I mentioned that, was because someone brought up the condition of many of the M94's used in those campaigns, and the poor quality of the repairs. So I'm not sure how my comments were so inappropriate.

You can sure sling it,....even to the point of calling a little friendly and very LIGHT jibes "Azzhat"

....while in the same hour , posting in almost disgustingly apelike vein.....



You're pretty damn clueless on more than a few levels.

Us poor uninformed masses, honored by YOUR "earth shattering news"
remain humbled and honored to be blessed with your cutting edge, and never one meniscus off center bubble rantings, Gibson Girl.

Back to the REAL issue,...who's the goddam fool that didn't issue M1 Carbines to VILLA ?

GTC

The original topic of this thread was pretty interesting ,
To me at least .

Gonna get those pics this weekend I think

I'd very much like to see em', and share some pics of the repairs to the arms involved,....ranging from the Stone Age primitive, into some REAL artisan grade work.

Apologies for getting a little impatient at being unceasingly lectured about the virtues of the M1 carbine
....versus everything starting with David's sling forward.

Hint: We KNOW , Kevin,....as L Welk said, wunnerful, wunnerful,wunnerful,wunnerful,wunnerful,wunnerful,wunnerful,wunnerful,wunnerful,

Suggesting that turn bolt Springfield '03s or ' 06s were common Mexican arms during that period, or that ammo for them was AVAILABLE is just more of the stupid stuff that somebody READ somewhere, and believed. Believe me, it was NOT the actual case.

Didactically lecturing a small group of seasoned Border Arms cats that have probably repaired more tang busted '73s, '76s, '86s, '92s, and '94s,(and done that well) about the "technical design problems" of the arm is the behavior of a REAL "azzhat".

Que' Viva, la carabinas !

GTC

Ya, to me too. Blown away by the breath of knowledge around these boards.

I've read stories of lots of old treinta y trientas down in Mexico in distant decades past, so much so that ammo for the same was practically currency. Weren't they a standard up in the Alaskan bush too?

I'm wondering now what usually failed on em, seems like the design weren't all that tight mechanically to begin with.

Birdwatcher

Zero in on "Tang Busted", Mike. Wrist of the stocks,...upper tangs, lower trigger / lever plates

....pretty much covers the more common historical wrecks, encountered.
Horses rolling on rifles left in scabbards, one of the MAIN avenues of approach. Savvy cats tied, hobbled, or ground reined their horses AFTER pulling their rifles off,....out of the scabbard. Anybody with one lick of common sense will do the same, today.

...once the Mauser armed Federales started grabbing ANYTHING that they seized and publicly smashing it on a hitching post, anvil,...whatever was handy in front of locals , while the body of the fellow it had been taken off of was still cooling, ...all bets are of as to just how many of these failures / damages actually occurred in "the field".

I'm still losing sleep over what would have transpired had old Kalashnikov gotten involved.

Any IDIOT, well enough connected to even DREAM acquiring, or running .30 caliber ".gov" ammo into Mexico was not going to get any sorta' "Trial"

.45-70 was scarce as hen's teeth too,....and it's distribution weighted with the same no nonsense penalties.

GTC

seems like i remember the 94 being used pretty commonly further south too, like in argentina.

i shouldn't admit to this but okay.
try a 1900 vintage breakdown winchester in 38.55 with a real loose buttstock. It had loosen up around the tang area.
couple of toothpicks stuck in there tightened in up just fine.
I am going to have to fix it properly one of these days.
or leave it that way so some guy 50years from now can go wtf?

the subject of 94's kind of pains me. There is one laying up on the side of the mountain someplace in the bradshaws, slipping out of my dad's saddle scabbard in the 30's.
I use to go looking for the thing.

Not really. The pace of development of military arms was such that by 1894 the state of the art included clip-fed (en bloc or stripper) magazine rifles, designed for a sustained rate of fire a '94 couldn't match. The '94 also could not meet the requirements imposed by the world's armies for performance under adverse conditions, and (as has been noted) had some structural weaknesses as well including a distinct lack of strength through the wrist. It also wasn't designed to tear down without tools.

The state of the art was probably a Mauser, such as the Spanish or Swedish versions - these also used ammunition significantly better ballistically than the .30 WCF as each cartridge was loaded at the time.

Winchester did try to sell the '94 as a military rifle, but other than a couple of fairly obscure contracts for second or third line service (generally at times when there simply weren't other options available) it was singularly unsuccessful. Made a good sporter though, and no doubt a fair choice for a guerrilla, especially if there was nothing better available.

Two world wars, the subsequent "Cold War", and now this toilet flushing sound Merckel era look to be the death knell to any real chance of getting straight up and reasonably accurate notes on what the "Huns" provided, serviced, and as well used as deep cover for generally spooking around during this tragi-comic episode.

Mauser had complete trains chartered / rented,....going wherever the action was thickest / hottest. Mobile armories, with sales staff ready to council and advise.
Like em' or not, THEIR story would be one very interesting to hear.

There are no more than clues to be sorted out,...as to just how their adventures played out.

The victors get to write history,....or their version of it.

Asi' es.

GTC

Last publication I read, Greg, mentioned anywhere from 5000 to 8000 German military advisors in Mexico during the revolution years. At any given time.

Also another little gem from another fine book mentioned a yet unpublished comment given by Col. Slocum (commander of US Forces at Columbus NM). He mentioned long after his retirement (1927 I believe) that the intent of the raid on Columbus was to kidnap his wife (Slocums) and hold her for ransom. He confided this to a junior officer one evening at a dinner party.
Slocums and villa were more than acquaintances. They knew each other pretty well. And Villa knew Slocum had married into eastern money. The idea of re supplying his army of the north by the Columbus raid was a bit obsurd to Slocums and there really was t that much in the whole town to resupply with!

Slocums never gave any other evidence for his story.

Interesting. May explain his absence during most of the incident as he did testify he was very concerned for his family's safety. But in reality the US Army can still be proud of exceptional small unit leadership displayed by the NCO's and jr. Officers. (All higher ranking officers were back at FortBliss for a polo tournament!)

I feel the bottom line concerning theModel 1894 is while it would probably not be anyone's first pick as a premiere military weapon, in 1910 it made one heck of an "insurgents" weapon.

kaywoodie;
Top of the morning to you sir, I trust the week treated you folks acceptably well.

Greg/crossfire and I have conversed on this topic before - we actually mighta met each other in the fall/winter of '80-'81 as we were in the same area and I gassed up at the station he ran.

Anyway speaking personally in a lifetime of paying attention to firearms, the two most common center fire rifles that we'd run into with either Native hunter/trappers or farmer/trappers in rural Canada backwaters in the '60's was either a Lee-Enfield - usually a Mk III, much less often a No 4 and very rarely a Jungle Carbine - or a 94 Winchester - usually in .30-30, often enough in .32 Special that it wasn't uncommon and rarely in .38-55.

As an aside the most common .22 was a Canadian made Cooey Model 75, with the Model 39 coming in a close second.

I believe this is a slightly modified 39.


So anyway sir, whilst I'd not choose a 39 for a grizzly gun and neither would my first choice for repelling a zombie horde be a 94, if that's all I had, based upon shooting both arms a whole bunch - I'd probably still be someone that'd be reasonably dangerous to stand in front of....

Sorry for the slight diversion of the thread into more northern latitudes folks. The Mexican Revolution has always been of particular interest to me and I appreciate all the input here, it's been a grand read.

All the best to you all this weekend and good luck on your upcoming hunts this fall.

Dwayne

Wow! That's pretty cool Brian!!!!

My adopted Grand dad hunting in Mexico in the 20's. He carried a Model 54 Winchester in 30 Govt 1906. He always mentione de hunting in the "Burro" Mountains. Which I'm sure is just like the millions of "Sandy" creeks we have here! LOL!

He mentioned one evening an old Indian walked into their camp leading a burro. And he had a 94 SRC that had definitely "seen the elephant". Prolly about 1925. But the old man was extremely proud of it! It was "his" pride and joy!

On a sidenote he also said they had a black cook that they took with them. The Federales would not let them bring in a "black" man, so they told them he was an Indian. All was well! I'm sure there was a little Mordita involves too!

That lady definitely deserves a thread of her own! Do tell!

A fairly early picture of mr Villa , my wife's great grandfather to his left . As told to me by his son , they were friends and business aquantiences , and remained so until pancho began to cause trouble with the states . My wife's great grandfather provided him with "supplies" until that time , then he left to become a US citizen .



Another of the great grandfather . Family name was "Helu" , changed slightly upon becoming a citizen of the US

Always good posts - this one is especially good. Thanks.

Just ordered it on Amazon.


For good measure, also ordered . . . A Splendid Savage: The Restless Life of Frederick Russell Burnham 1st Edition
by Steve Kemper (Author)

OrangeOkie;
Good afternoon to you sir, I hope the day's been a good one for you all so far.

Thanks for the head's up on the book by Steve Kemper - I wasn't aware of it until now.

I've also ordered one from Amazon for winter reading.

Thanks again and all the best to you folks this fall.

Dwayne

He probably carried whatever he wanted to.

Dwayne,....IIRC we ( my Station / Trading Post, "Old Fort Chiniqui)were running propane into the Boy Scout Jamboree during somewhat hostile weather conditions ?

I think the staff and I could have starred in a zombie flick, by the time that wound down.

GTC

Back to the Win M-94 for a minute. dan oz mentioned "a couple of obscure military contracts" for the 94 during WW-1.

The June, 2015 issue of American Rifleman has an article, "Winchester Lever-Actions Go To War". Regarding the M-94 the article states that Great Britain acquired aprox. 5,000 M-94's in 30-30 for the Royal Navy. The article goes on to say that France contracted for 15,100 M-94 carbines.

The article states that some of these M-94's were carried by motorcycle couriers. Now there is an interesting mental picture, as the same rifle and scabbard transitioned from horseback to motorcycle.

Interestingly, the article states that the British Royal Navy also acquired 20,000 Model 1892 rifles in .44-40.

While arguably most of these Winchesters never saw "front-line" service, they certainly did see war-time service. I am sure the Winchester's light weight and easy handling characteristics were appreciated by those who carried them.

Actually, what I said was

What you've posted bears that out.

FWIW, early in WWI there was a huge shortfall in the number of SMLE service rifles needed for the rapidly expanding British Army. Among other responses, the Royal Navy was called upon to transfer stocks of SMLE service rifles to the Army, and in turn the RN had to find other rifles to fill the gap. These included something like 150,000 Arisakas, as well as a few odds and sods in comparatively small numbers like about 4000 Remington 14 1/2s and those Winchester 94s, and sundry others.

The British Army also had a range of oddballs temporarily pressed into second and third line service too, once again to free up Lee Enfield service rifles for the front until production had caught up with demand. To put those numbers into context, by the time that WWI ended, more than 2 million SMLEs and about 1.2 million P14s had been made.

Other countries had similar problems, such as France and, when it finally entered the war, the US too, leading to some similar decisions.

dan,

I agree with you, for the most part. I wasn't disputing what you said. I was adding more information about the obscure contracts that backed up what you said.

I also love the visual of British sailors below decks in the evening cleaning and oiling their M-92 .44-40's.

Thanks for sharing those pics. They are extremely interesting.