I just don't know what kind I'll need.

Here is the back story, my wife divorced her first husband in 2006. He left behind his AR-15 rifle, and has never asked for it until today. Today he said he's calling the ATF to have it recovered.

Here is a quote from the email He sent my wife:



Now I'm hoping whomever answers the phone at the ATF is intelligent enough to ask the proper questions. I don't care about the AR-15, but I don't want this to escalate into a problem for me and my wife owning our current firearms and any future purchases. I don't know how it'll affect us when the rifle has been in possession of my wife for nearly eleven years. I can't legally send him the rifle because he lives in NY and teaches at West Point. Plus there is the principal of not giving him any satisfaction because he suddenly wants to make something an issue.

So is this a family law (divorce), a property rights, or some other?

10 years has gone by. He never requested the rifle before now...

It was legally considered "abandoned property" long ago.

He's just running a bluff by bringing up getting ATF involved.

Tell him to GFH.

I think a $50/year storage fee to be paid at the time of the return of his weapon would be appropriate.

Of course, you tack on late fees and interest and the amount goes up significantly (I should work for the IRS, except I was born with a conscience).

I would be getting a lawyer, for sure.

You don't need a lawyer, yet. You probably won't at all. As mentioned, it's been too long a time.

The only advice I can give is do NOT get smartalecky and say something like "I gave it to Achmed el Jihad." It'd be best to not reply at all.

if it was in California :
half of it belongs to him , just take the upper and give it to him.

Persian.

My divorce specifically said "any items in the possession of either party 30 days after the date of recording, are the permanent possession of that party holding the item."

Of course, you can always answer his inquiry with "No, I don't still have it."

teaches at West Point too?

Two guesses, and they are strictly guesses.

Someone asked about his AR, and given the fact he's teaching for the man, leaving a gun 'unsecured' has him hinky

OR

he's worried about its disposition coming back to bite him in the ass.

Got to agree though, #sand as a response.

BTW, was this the AR you dropped in the lake?

It might be that he needs to know his AR-15 was lost in a tragic boating accident some years ago.




The information is out there, all you have to do is let it in.

I'd just send him a picture of your junk, and ask him if that's what he's looking for.

Ask him if he wants his "balls" back now.

I'm sure the ATF is going to drop everything and get right on that! His only chance of getting it back, rests with your willingness to return it. Unless somehow, your wife failed to return it in accordance with their divorce decree, or he previously reported it stolen, he's SOL. It's no different than any other property. No, I'm not a lawyer but I've had to deal with similar issues.

Don't know what The law is where you reside pertaining to the transfer of long arms . But he did say that he left it to her. In the state of Pennsylvania I would own That firearm, he she gave it to me.

Start with the divorce decree. See what it says about specific property (it's likely not listed), firearms in general, and then any remaining personal property clauses such as "all personal property not requested or obtained by either party from the possession of the other within ____ days/months shall become the property of the possessor".

"I thought that YOU had the AR-15".

ATF= maybe full auto.

The value of the rifle does not merit hiring a lawyer. If it does not belong to your wife under the divorce decree, I'd take it to the local Police Station or Sheriff's office. They can determine whether he lawfully qualifies to possess the firearm. Plus they will have a pile of paper work for him to file out.

Or is it, he illegally modified it, and now trying to get the evidence back?

I would write back and say the gun is no longer in our posession. Sold at a gun show.

crap like this is why I have a lawyer. Not on retainer, but available. Spend a few bucks if necessary, and turn the letter over to someone that knows what the law is in your part of the Country.

Do you really want to hassle over a silly AR that was his originally. I would tell him to send you a hundred bucks to cover shipping and handling and a FFL that he wants it sent to. Get your FFl on your end to send it to his FFL and make him yellow sheet it again. Then go buy yourself a new AR. If it makes you feel better take it out and do about 20 mag dumps as fast as you can pull the trigger u till the barrel droops and the throat is cooked but I would not get a lawyer to try and keep something as trivial as a rifle.

Just answer the email with one word: "no."

It's really none of his business. If he was worried about his rifle he certainly should not have waited 10 years to ask about it.

I don't see how your wife has any obligation to even answer the email really.

Cost of lawyer will reach the price of any firearm teal quick. Hasbeen

I'd reply back "haven't seen it since you left"!

I'd sanitize the gun removing my prints and handle it with gloves, drive to west point drop the thing off on the front door to the main office with a note indicating who it belongs to and advise them that it is not registered per the safe act.

You don't need to do anything but hit the ignore button.

I'd ignore him. The numbnuts lives in NY so he can’t have it anyway. For peace of mind your wife could check with the lawyer she used for the divorce, but if he bought the gun while they were married, that makes it marital property in most states. Most divorce decrees have specific time limits on division of marital property because the courts don’t want to be bothered with endless BS.

I went to the Sheriff's office after I posted the original question, because my wife was in full on panic mode and needed answers right away. I told them the situation and they said it was abandoned property. They also said as long as we were both legal to own it then it was legally ours since it had been in our possession for so long. He also said it was a civil issue since the AR-15 was not stolen if it comes down to anything further, and that law enforcement probably wouldn't get involved.

This all started when we sent him a quote for getting my step daughter braces, and we offered him the opportunity to pay for half the cost that insurance wouldn't cover. We didn't care if he paid or not, we just wanted him to say yes or no. He found out that I also carry insurance on my step daughter for medical, dental, and vision and accused us of trying to commit insurance fraud for submitting to both his and my insurance companies. His insurance is through Tri-Care (military) and mine is through my work with the rail road. The reason I added my step daughter is that I pay the same amount for insurance regardless of number of dependents, so it seemed like a good idea to carry secondary insurance on her.

My wife thinks he feels like I'm pi$$ing on his tree, by carrying insurance on my step daughter. I told my wife not to reply to anything other than the dental issue that we already contacted him about.

Ah. Time to tell him to f'k off. Sounds like he only gave a schit about the kid when it was clear that YOU give a schit about the kid.

He should have just offered to prorate your dependent coverage if it was acceptable to you, rather than being a dick.

Your wife should hand you the rifle, ask you to hide it, then reply to the ex in all honesty, she doesn't know where the gun that he bought is at.

Tell him he'd have better luck buying a new AR in NY than getting yours from you.

Reading this I believe he's going to tell you to sell the gun and that's his share of the braces.

This.


Not this.

No, you don't need a lawyer.

Then this.

I'm sure we're headed to court one way or another, that's just his M.O. If he doesn't get exactly what he wants he threatens and takes us to court. A couple years ago we had to let our attorney go after our last time in family court with him. He decided that he'd only correspond with us through our attorneys. So we had a monthly bill of about $200-300 for attorney fees for email correspondence, and our attorney told us that if we "fired" him then the Ex was the only one paying attorney fees.

As far as I'm concerned if he gets a stripped lower receiver then we've sent the rifle back. However, he doesn't care about the rifle he just wants the ATF to secure it. He's just making trouble for us.

You made the right decision talking with the SO and they gave you good advice. His accusations of fraud are laughable. I wonder what he's teaching...

You might want to check with someone familiar with NY law or contact the NY State Police. It may very well be illegal for you to send it to NY for transfer or sale. NY has banned the sale and I believe transfer of "assault weapons" as defined by the NY SAFE Act. In order to keep these rifles, they had to have been registered. They either had to be registered or sold/transferred to an out of state person or NY FFL holder. I'm pretty sure it would illegal in NY for you to send it to him. That plus it being declared abandoned property, I'm pretty sure that it is yours. If he plays hardball with you, ask him to send you a letter from the NY State Police stating that it is legal to send this rifle into NY for transfer. That'll never happen and will shut him up.

The NY SAFE ACT:

"Broadens definition of "assault weapon" from two identified features to one. The sale and/or transfer of newly defined assault weapons is banned within the state, although sales out of state are permitted. Possession of the newly defined assault weapons is allowed only if they were possessed at the time that the law was passed, and must be registered with the state within one year."

This would seem to prohibit you from transferring the rifle back to him.

She's my daughter not his, I've raised her for the last eight years since she was five. Other than the last time he took us to court to modify parenting time, he only calls her on her birthday (if he remembers), and Christmas. Since my daughter's birthday is in Jan, she doesn't hear from him until her visitation, which he didn't arrange for this year.

Middle Eastern Studies

Sounds like he majored in dumbassatude.

You/she owe him nothing,he is just trying to stir up you know what.

Sounds like Dick101

And it just gets better and better...

Ask him "What's an AR-15?, and why on earth would anybody have one of those things?"

My unit costs me monthly. Just sayin'.....

My daughter is currently going through a divorce. There is verbiage in her divorce decree that is very similar to this.

This also includes me as I was storing items at her home in a large out building they had. My problem is that the ex son-in-law has not made reasonable access to the building for me to retrieve my belongings.

You may want to see if your wife has a copy of the divorce decree and read through it first. You might be able to avoid a lot of headache by doing so. If it does indeed have this clause you're in business. Any communications with her ex-husband need to be via email. Tell him that the divorce decree states that the items were abandoned. Let him know that you're more than willing to return the firearm to him. Let him know that it needs to be transferred through a FFL and that he needs to pay for the transfer.

Ya gotta admit, it's a cheap way to get an AR, though he probably could go to jail for it in some states for abandoning a dangerous weapon.

Time to fight fire with fire. He wants to go to court? Fine. Go to court. Your daughter is 13. That's old enough in most states to testify on custody issues and to have her word carry weight. This time, you go for termination of his rights and full adoption by you. See how he likes THAT, and you might very well win.

I hope you are documenting all his assholiness.

Nope, just a Colt M-Forgery semi auto only. I've had it out and shot it a few times nothing special about it. I like AR's and have a couple more that are way better than this one. I tried to talk my wife (then girlfriend) into selling it in 2008 after Obama got elected the first time. I made almost $800 profit on my DPMS M-Forgery I auctioned on GB back then that I didn't care for.

Just make sure it is in a case before you walk in.

We are saving every email and text message. The only thing we aren't doing is recording phone conversations. They're so few and far between anyway.

You really need to stfu and go away

That was uncalled for...

Don't reward his trouble making.

The more you and your wife respond to him, the more reward he gets, by causing you grief.

Not really.

I'm not too tolerant of rubbing elbows with the enemy, myself.

Gitem was spot on.

And he can take Piddler, NWA, and Snivels with him.

You don't need a lawyer. Tell him to come and get it, but it's going to be hot and empty.

Yep. Time to piss up a rope. I wouldn't even answer the email about the gun.

He's not a teacher named Chris in FL by any chance is he?

I'd be inclined to just give the fella his rifle back. I'm guessing he is the one that bought it?

Yankees.

As a former LEO I can tell you that the AR was joint property unless it was specifically mentioned in the property settlement of the divorce. That is if there is nothing about abandoned items and time a frame.

The ATF don't care and neither does local law enforcement after 10 years. Unless there was a domestic assault or a felony on YOUR behalf it now belongs to your wife. Tell him to pound sand and report it to any damn one he wants to. You don't need a lawyer for nothing.

If you give it back, it's out of the kindness of your heart. If he is an instructor at West Point, he has all the money in the world to buy 20 more if he wants another AR.

His next recourse is small claims court if he thinks he has a case.

kwg

No cop will get involved.

No ATF agent will get involved.

He feeds off your wife's knee-jerk hysteria. Next time she asks you stupid schit just open a beer and stare at her.




Dave

Can't transfer rifle to non-state resident without an FFL logging it and doing background check.

Then, I want you to find me an FFL that will transfer an AR to a New York resident.

That sounds exhausting.

You don't need a lawyer.

Ignore him. The worst he can do is try to sue you in your home state to get it back. He won't be doing that.

Ignoring jackwagons is the best way to get their goat.

I agree with MadMooner, however, the burden of transfer costs and legality belong to the ex-husband.

you need to be reading the terms of your wife divorce from him and then go from there

On any issue that can be elevated to a legal/lawyer status and law enforcement becomes involved, NEVER LIE! Recall Martha Stuart's situation.

Why?




Dave

At this point, considering the guy is a jerk, he's likely to sic the ATF on her if she transfers the rifle in any fashion he can infer is questionable, if it belongs to her now because of any divorce paper clause.

shoot it till the barrel melts, than part it out.

The ATF isn't going to do schit.





Dave

Do not allow this ploy to disturb your domestic tranquility. It's not worth the blood pressure points. It has obviously already consumed more energy than it is worth. Put your feet up, relax, and rejoice in the fact that she no longer has to put up with the antics of old what's-his-name.

Your wife might make a very short reply (if correct): Any property you left in my possession became mine after 30 days. At this late date, you have no claim to any such property.

That does not stipulate that she still has the AR, and it puts a stop to his claim. Then ignore him. Last I had any need to check, claims under about $1500 have to go to Small Claims Court. I think that is his only recourse. Usually, that claim would have to be filed in your home county, not his. He would have to travel there to appear in person, and he's not going to do that. As stated, neither law enforcement nor the ATF is going to have the slightest interest in this civil issue.

I'd add that if I did have it and it was his I would tell him he's welcome to come get it.

But then again, I'm normal.




Dave

That's a much better solution than letting him manipulate you and damage your happiness. If he really wants it back, hand it over to an FFL in your state, and let him carry the burden of transferring it. As you undoubtedly already know, you cannot simply hand it to him.

Buy throwaway phone and a 30 round magazine - pay cash.

Load magazine, and stick the magazine in the AR and ship it common carrier and undeclared, to the SOB, signature confirmation, pay cash, no return address.

Monitor shipment. When it's close to delivery, call local LE with throwaway phone. Tell em a local is receiving an un"SAFE" firearm, w/o a FFL. Give em tracking # and delivery address and date.

Shake well, instant felon.

JOY

Jesus
Others
Yourself

Hint.




Travis

Where's the fun in *that*?

+1

Yep, the act of transferring the gun will be the only illegal thing that could come out of this. And I definitely wouldn't want the jerk to have a gun that I illegally transferred to him.

Generally, the ATF is not going to investigate a marital property dispute involving a gun. That’s not what they do. There would have to be a federal firearm crime nexus. If ex tells the full story to local police, they probably aren’t going to mess with it, either.

If ex has the serial number and he omits a few facts about the circumstances and makes a stolen gun report, the gun may end up being entered stolen NCIC, which could create some issues down the road if you, your wife or any good faith purchaser/possessor gets stopped with it and the serial number is run. The ex still could end up in a bureaucratic hassle of where to report it, depending on where he says it was at the time he claims that it was “stolen.” This also impacts the location of any civil litigation to deal with the issue. If treated as an adjunct to the property settlement, it may have to be litigated where the property settlement occurred. If the place of property settlement and the place where the gun was abandoned are not the state where the ex currently resides, the hassle factor on the ex may be increased.

If a lawyer has to get involved, it would be easy to spend more than the gun is worth. In a war of attrition, though, the ex may have to spend a lot more.

Just some stuff to think about.

GFY is the only explanation the guy needs after 10 years.

Or, just wait for his to make a threat other than "I'm telling the ATF" and send a copy to his commanding Officer.

That usually gets people to calm down.

Generally, these types of threads suffice.

How about playing the "Be an adult" game? If its his damn gun, give it to him. Problem solved.

By rewarding his assholiness?

That'll make him stop that, right?

How much luck would any of us have if we called up our ex of 10 years and told her to turn over something we left there?

Hint, again.

Get rid of the [bleep] once and for all, and LEGALLY.

Clearly plenty of fire members haven't had their fill of drama yet. There's no playing this game and "winning". Playing always has a price with guys like this.

I've suggested play to win, and have it all over and done.

Anything else keeps this drama going on for another 5 years.

Not pointed at you 4ager. I have little doubt you'd make a good decision and be done with it one way or another.

1. Because it's not his anymore?
2. Abandoned property
3. Not legal to sell/give back for him to possess in the state of NY

That's why

What AR? Didn't you sell it or he took it with him when he left.

You are obviously unaware of how many people who divorce interact.

Bless your heart

Bingo.

Substitute the word "guitar" for "firearm" in your musings.

Property is property. Let him call the ATF... your wife has committed NO CRIME!

I appreciate the vote of confidence. All situations are unique. With what the OP is saying, father being completely absent, etc., and the age of the kid, he could (and I think should) be aggressive and push this issue. The father, as is typical of his "stripe" likes being a bully and throwing his weight around (brass/collar heavy). Fire back, put him in his place, and end this.

I hope anyone who is reading this and considering marrying a gal with kids thinks it through first. A lifetime of pain in the azz - generally from losers.

If she's your daughter, act like it, and never ask him for anything.

This whole episode began when you initiated contact with him, asking for money.

The more you keep him out of your lives, the better your lives will be. There's no upside is giving him an opportunity to mess with your wife and daughter.

Probably not in Colorado. In this state is presumed that joint custody is best for the child, so what you propose is less likely to work in this state unless the ex is a convicted drug dealer or pedophile.

I hope by this point in this campfire soap opera you have learned:

1. He's got no claim to the rifle

2. The ATF doesn't give a [bleep] about this and he has not/will not contact them about it.

3. There is no way in hell it can be legally transferred to a NYS resident.

4. He is trying to game you one way or another

5. The only way he can be successful at (4) is if you let him by playing along

6. You are not stupid enough to engage in any of the nitwit gamesmanship moves that have been suggested here.

7. Explain this to you wife. End of story.

This^^

Let him call the ATF, they'll laugh at him if they don't just hang up. Same thing with the local law enforcement. It doesn't matter that it's an AR, it's property and he abandoned it 10 years ago. It now belongs to your wife. Don't try and send it to NY, don't do anything. Just ignore him.

Doing anything other than nothing is just feeding the troll, it's like responding to a post by walt.

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill

What AR 15 rifle?

I'd not respond to the email in any fashion. If the fella is sincere I'd wait for a registered letter.

Intelligent people will understand that I was just making him aware of the NY law so that he wouldn't get into legal trouble by trying to transfer that rifle to someone in NY. I was not defending the law. I've supported having that law repealed and support the civil disobedience that owners of these rifles NOT register them.

I'm not going anywhere.

I still wouldn't want a gun I didn't buy and some other guy wanted back.

I'd make it available to him if he wanted it.

Would be no skin off my nose.



Dave

On the off chance that the moron might do something stupid like reporting the rifle stolen, make copies of his email and keep them tucked away.

If it were legal, I might send him the rifle, but it isn't. If I really wanted to close the matter I'd sell it and send him the proceeds, with documentation.

"Silence is Golden"


Let him talk to himself.

Tell that dork to forget he ever knew his X cause he don't want to know you!

I understand your point. Here is mine.... Who gives a flying fug? It isn't your rifle. Give it back to him. One less reason to have to deal with him.

1- Did he sell it?
2- Is it yours?
3- that's his fugging problem

You guys would really keep a firearm that isn't yours? Deep pool of honest men we have here.

I've found it to be best to act like grown azz adults. Bless your heart.

All I see you do on this forum is cry out for everyone to make sure they follow the safe act, and let's just compromise and give up standard capacity magazines.

As I said, he should sanitize the gun and drive it to west point, drop it off at the door of the CO'S residence with a note saying who it belongs to and that it is not registered per safe act regulations.

It would depend on how he treated my 'now' Wife.

If we allow him to do this to us now, what else will he try to do in the future.



I didn't ask him for anything, and I didn't want the money. However, he's always trying to find my wife in violation of the decree at every chance he gets. I read the decree and she has to inform him of any extraordinary medical/dental procedures and both parties are supposed to pay half the expenses not covered, orthodontia was one of the examples as well. So my wife was abiding by the divorce decree when she sent him the quote with the costs and what his share would be and ours from the orthodontists office to be in compliance with the decree.

I never cared one way or another if he paid or not, my daughter needs the braces and she'll get them. However, I don't want to give him any ammunition to use against us in court when we wind up there again. My wife and I will allow him to violate the decree all he wants, it just helps us out in court.

I read in the decree he was supposed to remove any items from the residence as soon as possible when he returned from his deployment to Tunisia. It also specified that any long term storage of his items was supposed to be agreed upon by both parties in writing. Even though the AR-15 was his before the marriage it wasn't listed in his non marital assets on the decree.

Best thing I ever did was marry my wife, I got one awesome kid in the deal. I'd deal with 10 lifetimes of pain in the azz losers to have my daughter.

It's unfortunate the random acts of violence that seem to befall such people. Tsk Tsk. A real shame.

Not quite. As he bought it when they were married, it became community property, therefore, it was at that time only ½ his.


Whoops. Just read the man bought the rifle before they were married.


L.W.

If being the good guy in court, or in life, is important, then doing like wyoelk suggests and agreeing to get the rifle to him in compliance with applicable laws at his expense, or, at least, offering to do so, helps in that goal. Life's too short to waste energy and money playing mind games with negative people.

Same here, I wouldn't trade my stepdaughter for anything, she is polite, very smart (national honors society, and straight A student) just a really great kid, despite her real dad being a dipschit

Ok,

Now I understand.

Of course, if he's as much of a dick as you describe, he doesn't see it that way, he sees it as he ex-wife trying to squeeze him for some cash....but that is the nature of these things....

You don't need a lawyer!

Give him his gun back

OR

turn it in at next police "gun buy back" program you an find!


You'll be done with it for good either way!

He must be an officer to foot bill.

If you are in possession of his rifle why don't you just give it to him (through a registered firearms dealer to cover your arse)...problem fixed.

The point is: So long as the ex lives in NY, the OP and his wifle can't legally transfer that rifle to him. The rifle is not registered, it's too late to register it and no FFL in NY can legally transfer it. The only way for the couple with the rifle to avoid legal jeopardy would be if the ex went to them and took the rifle back. Then when the ex transports it to NY, it is the ex that has the legal jeopardy, not the OP and his wife.

Now, don't shoot the messenger - again (Gitem 12 talking to you). I didn't make the law or support it, just letting the OP (and others here) aware of the very restrictive nature of the SAFE Act and trying to keep the OP and his wife out of any potential legal trouble they probably don't want.

No...the point is that when it is in the hands of a registered firearms dealer the problem no longer exists.

If the ex wishes to take it up with the ruling authority then he may do so at his own leisure.

Ok, one more time. No FFL in NY can legally accept the shipment of the AR-15 from out of state for transfer to a NY resident. NY FFLs can accept them from NY residents for transfer OUT of the State. There is one way to do it legally and that would be if the OP and his wife converted the AR-15 into a NY compliant form, removing all the cosmetic features that make a rifle an "assault rifle" in NY and sending it without a high capacity magazine. Why would or should the OP go to that expense to send the ex this rifle. Have the ex come and get it in the OPs state and then its all on the ex if he transports it into NY. That's about as clear as I can make it.

So don't give it to a NY FFL...give it to the closest out of state FFL and let the ex sort it out.

The OP can try, but what out-of-state FFL will accept it under those circumstances, for transfer to an out-of-state resident who can't legally own it in the State where he resides? The ex can't "sort it out" there is no way for him to legally possess this rifle in NY, unless it is made to be NY compliant.

1. any that wishes to send a missive to the ex stating that if the firearm is not picked up with-in 30 days the firearm will be forfeited in lieu, or wishes to charge the ex $100.00 a month storage (my favourite).

2. who gives a flying f ck what the ex thinks about it?


Do the legal thing and let the ex sort his end out.

That was a pretty condescending statement, but nothing new for you.

Sweet Jesus, I've worried more about a hangnail than the sheit the ex is trying.

If I were a betting man my money would be on us not getting all pertinent information, otherwise it would have been handled already.

The point is once the OP writes him a letter to the effect sure We have it but if you want it I'll be happy to transfer it it to you or you can come and pick it up at a local FFL that is holding it for you etc. just let me know how you want it transferred. At that point the legal maneuvering stops and it puts the onus on the EX. What's he going to do take you to court after you said he could have it.If you want give him a time frame like 30 days or you are going to turn it into the police, sell it etc. Let him figure out he can't bring the gun into NY thats his problem.

You needed the lawyer far before this.

You should have had the lawyer send the orthodonist letter requesting the money. You can't be handling this stuff yourself.

Man, there is some stupid advice on this thread.

What information do you want to know? My wife made it a point to not have contact with her Ex unless it is dealing with her daughter. So he only gets notified if it's a medical issue or if she's doing something special with her school, 4H, or sports in case he wants to show up. He has made it known that he'll not visit his daughter where she lives, and she will only visit him where he is stationed or at his parents homes in the Carolinas or Florida.

I've been with my wife since 2008 and she was divorced in 2006. This is the first time he's ever asked about the AR-15 rifle since I've been with her. So there is a two year gap I don't know nor do I care about.

Now there have been several times in the last eight years he's tried to stir trouble up for us. He never asks or offers a compromise, he gives us orders on what we'll do and when he expects it done regarding his daughter and other things like this rifle. However this is the first time he has ever threatened to involve any form law enforcement and not just the courts.

It's not about the rifle at all for me and my wife. If her Ex would show up at our house and politely ask for it we'd hand it over, even though after I read the abandoned property laws for CO he has no legal right to it. I'm done with it, and I'm not going to allow my family to bow down to him in fear of legal or litigation issues every time he threatens it.

My wife's lawyer that handled the divorce is now retired. The lawyer we used last time for the modification of parenting time is a two hour drive away since we moved for my work after the last time we were in court. I was just more interested in figuring out what kind of legal advice we would need to seek if the ATF or other Law Enforcement agency showed up asking questions.

None of which has any bearing on this matter...why haven't you just taken the firearm to your nearest FFL and informed the ex as to it's location?

Please don't tell me no one will handle it as we all have a mate in the trade that helps in these matters.

Only thing I see is the ex husband still has control of the ex wife.
Ex speaks, ex wife listens and gets upset.

Ex husband is shooting back for the upcoming new expense.

Sell the AR and use proceeds for the braces.

Have your wife email him back & ask for a copy of the FFL he wants you to send it to...check it out on the DOJ website.

If it's on the up and up I'd go to the NY DOJ & make sure I wasn't in violation of their state law by shipping it to the dealer....HE pays for shipping...............OR...if face to face transactions are legal in your AO, simply tell him you sold it years ago....your choice.

You don't need a lawyer. Ignore him. Don't jump through any hoops, don't do squat. Just ignore him and move along.

Just DO whatever you want to do until such time as you have a Order from a Court telling you do do something else.

What if John Smith contacted you today and said you dented his bumper in 2006 in a parking lot at Walmart... would you tell him to pound sand and to get a Court Order?... or buy him a new bumper?

IF you really did dent John Smith bumper... you morally owe John a new bumper.

In a divorce there is huge financial carnage on both sides... if your wife feels morally obligated to make restitution with the rifle... do so. If not, do nothing.

If lawyers are required, I would sell her rifle to pay for the lawyers... but personally I would rather feed and breed feral hogs over lawyers.

This is the best advice. The ATF or any other law enforcement agency won't care or get involved with who is the legal owner. You have broken no laws, so long as you are legally allowed to possess firearms. Sell it legally and you are done with it. Don't admit in writing that the rifle is his or that you are willing to send it to him. He's not going to do anything but trying to tick you off. Keep documentation of the sale and what you received for it.

Tell him if he wants the AR back then he has to take the EX wife back also. End of Argument

I believe you said previously that the rifle doesn't mean much to you. Why not just give it to a local police department with a written explanation of the situation and then tell the ex that he needs to work through the PD to regain custody of it.

Worst advice on this thread.

Hey, the government fixes all problems....

You can depend on them.

Consider the source, according to him the Confederate flag shouldn't be flown and Redskins should change their name, don't want to offend.

I'm not sure that the wife could legally hand the rifle over to the ex-husband if he showed up on the front porch.

Having title to property is one thing. Having possession is another. Interstate transfer of title is, as far as I know, not regulated. Interstate transfer of possession is regulated, and both the giving and receiving party commit felonies if an interstate transfer is done without an FFL.

Title to the property is probably held by the wife, if the standard 30 day possession clause is in the divorce decree. Like so many things in a divorce, he may have bought it, and it may have been his at one time, but it probably is now hers. And the wife clearly has possession of the property.

Even if the ex-husband holds title to the rifle, she probably commits a felony if he shows up at the house and she hands the rifle to him. The ex-husband lives in NY, he's not a resident of your state, and you can't transfer possession without an FFL.

Be done with this negative interaction. You don't need more conflict in your life. Either tell him to pound sand, or tell him you'll turn it over to an FFL in your state and he can deal with it from there. This is simply not worth the emotional investment it's getting.

There is no title to a rifle.

This "advice" keeps popping up. I doubt that any FFL would want to get involved. I don't believe they'd be legally obligated to get in the middle of a cluster [bleep].

this is the best advice you've gotten or are liable to get.

I have had a certain amount of experience with my wife's ex husband. He's a manipulator like this guy seems to be. Took me a while to teach my wife how to bitch slap him every time he tried to pull some shcit, but he keeps a pretty low profile now.

You probably hold title to the shoes you are wearing, and to the hammer in your toolbox. Why do you believe there is no title to a rifle? Most of the stuff you own (hold title to) does not have a state issued certificate of title, and one is not needed in order to hold title.

So, you want to make an academic argument. So tell me pray tell, how does one, short of pulling out a receipt, prove ownership of personal property except by possession or testimony?

It's not an academic argument. Anything you own, you hold title to. And you do not necessarily have possession of everything you own, nor do you hold title to everything you possess (have control of).

This issue came up in the courts not long ago. The government confiscated the firearms of a convicted felon. The felon argued that even though he could not legally possess (have control of) firearms, he could legally own (hold title) to them, and give them to a FFL to sell for him. The court agreed, the guns were sold, and the felon received the money from the sale (transfer of title in exchange for valuable consideration).

Proving you hold title is completely separate issue.

No it isn't a separate issue. As a practical matter, you don't actually own anything that you can't prove you own.

Nonsense.

In the court case cited above, the felon probably had no kind of certificate that showed he owned the firearms. Yet the court acknowledged his ownership, allowed them to be sold, and allowed the felon to receive payment for them.

Henderson v. United States.

http://www.scotusblog.com/2015/05/opinion-analysis-an-equitable-result-in-henderson-v-united-states/

And he "proved" that he owned them in court by offering sworn testimony that they were his that no one contradicted.

If this guy is a loose cannon, hot head type, she should CONSIDER just giving it back to avoid some future shenanigans. Sounds like he just wants to start some chit. If he is the type guy to go nutz, or poison your outside pets, etc maybe she's better served just giving it back.

So he proved he had title to the firearms? A moment ago, there was no title to a firearm.

Hold title=own.

My thoughts too.

I said there is no title to firearms referring to a written title. You countered with the assertion that there is title in all property. Without denying your assertion, I told you it was an academic assertion. You responded that it wasn't. I'm telling you that unless your can prove you own a piece of untitled personal property, as a practical matter you don't own it.

For instance, you give your neighbor your chainsaw to use and he never returns it. You go to get it and he says, "Sorry, that is mine. I bought it last year." You sue him with a writ of replevin to get your property back. At trial, you testify that it is yours. He testifies that it is his. You are not able to offer a receipt or any other evidence beyond your testimony which is directly contradicted by his. What do you think happens?

You must be a real catch. F'n clown.

has anyone noted that the NY SAFE ACT prohibits the ownership of an "as issued" AR 15 ?

it cannot be shipped to him w/o violating state law.

even if he is military he is not exempt.

i would not even respond to any email, block his email address, and refuse any correspondence from him.

until you receive a registered letter from an attorney licensed in your state, you need do nothing.

then toss the lower in a deep lake and sell the upper at some gun show.

use the sgt schultz defense.

I would ask him for the address of the FFL in NY he wants it transferred to in NY. Tell him that the guy legally belongs to you wife because he abandoned (reference your discussion with law enforcement) it so it has to be transferred legally. Since it sounds like it no FFL in NY is going to take it, he'll should discover this. Offer to sell it now for him or send it to him at his next duty station assuming it might be legal there. If that doesn't end the drama over this, have your wife call his commanding officer. Most commanders take a dim view of this kind of immature nonsense.

Yankees

This but like someone else said, bring it to an FFL and then give the ex the name and address of it's location and let him try to get it transferred to NY.

Nope. First time. Thanks for bringing it up.

You know...you are good at this.

You need to decide how you really feel about this. Your wife may be legally entitled to the rifle, but it sounds like you may have to get involved in a legal hassle to keep it.



If you truly don't care about the rifle and you truly don't want a hassle, give the man his rifle back. (yes, I know it might legally be your wife's rifle now, but I'm sure you can understand why he feels it's still his.) Don't send it directly, that would be illegal, but via an FFL in NY. If he won't agree to using an FFL, tell him to pound sand.



This is completely different from your previous paragraph. I can understand the principle of not being directed by jerks. How much hassle are you willing to go through to keep a rifle you say you don't care about just because the guy is a jerk?

If you decide to keep it, look at your wife's divorce papers and see if there is a clause about left property. If there is, tell him you have the rifle, it's securely stored and it's your wife's property now.

This is a good point also but would be the only way I can think of to CYA if you chose to return it to him.

I absolutely agree with those that say ignore it completely but somethings can be added to the academic argument:

He may be military, though not all West Point instructors are. As such he can have it transferred through his home state of record OR the state he resides in... so it may be easy to get it to him legally.

Again, there is nothing here and the request should be ignored. He has no legal ground and no way to create issues for the ex-wife down the road.

I think the point you missed as well as many other in this post is the Ex-husband doesn't care if he gets the rifle back. In fact I seriously doubts he wants it, and he'd be happy to pull a "Mark Kelly" with it. He just wants some sort of law enforcement to show up and take it from us.

He's accused us of raising our daughter to be a racist, right wing, Christian. In fact last summer he took her to a psychiatrist to have her diagnosed as a racist. This came about because our daughter refused to eat a middle eastern restaurant that only served halal meat.

Full custody and adoption. Go for it. Now.

Jurisdiction is with the kid; meaning where you are and not in New Yorkistan.

Racist
Right Wing
Christian

Crap I'm all of that and those are some of my best qualities

And this chowderhead is an educator at West Point?

Citizens, arm yourselves.

Just ignore it. You're not going to get his rights involuntarily terminated unless he is a real dirtbag. And yes, while jurisdiction goes with the child, the original court still has continuing jurisdiction and if he still lives in said jurisdiction, it stays in that court regardless of where the child goes.

Just ignore him and have as little to do with him as possible. People like that only have power over you if you let them. For better or worse, your wife has a relationship with him until the child is an adult at the very least. Grit your teeth and bear it unless it becomes something that you just can't ignore because it threatens to harms the child.

I wish we could we talked to a lawyer about it last year after it happened, and he told us there is no way in Colorado (CO Jurisdiction) that we could get full custody of her. We'd have to prove that her life was literally in immanent danger when she was in his custody. Same thing the Family Law Judge who attend our church told us as well.

She doesn't have to go. She is old enough to make that decision.

CO is just f'ked up.

I saw where the fool bought the AR 15 before they were married. Too bad it is not community property. Then the O.P. could just take a hack saw, cut it in two right through the upper and lower and send the West Point dude "his half."

Nothing like good divorce stories. There have been some dandies on the Fire. This one ranks near the top.

L.W.

"No remember, you took that AR with you when you left. I bought this one later."

I've told my wife she needs to write a book. Seems like her firm specializes in representing the Jerry Springer crowd.

Best advice giving!

Tell him you/we sold the rifle to help pay for the boob job!

For the 13yo daughter!

Whoa!! I just saw this. I'm not a psychologist, but it sounds to me as if the West Point dude is a sociopath. There is nothing "normal" about trying to have a psychiatrist establish an aberrant "medical label" for your daughter that could well follow her the rest of her life.

You're dealing with a demented person, in my opinion. Retain documentation of the "psychiatrist" episode.

Be careful who shows up at your door.

L.W.

Can someone really BE diagnosed as a racist?

What kind of meds do that give for that clinical condition?

I think he just diagnosed himself as being a controlling azzhole.

It's NY, and he has money. He can buy any diagnosis he desires.

Once again, back to my suggestion of setting the dude up and getting his ass locked away, not only will it be great fun, but it's gonna look good in your custody suit for you.

You gonna' WAIT another 24 hours + before filling in some more of the blanks in this narrative ? any particular reason you omitted this from your initial advisory ????

Pretty damned presumptuous on YOUR part telling people they're missing some kinda' 'Point",....when in truth you're still a ways off from actually MAKING one.

I'm reading this nonsense and now wondering what the hell ELSE you've not told the crew here about this weirdo.

GTC

Disassemble it down to the last spring and pin, then send it to him via the FFL of his choice in exchange for shipping costs, of course.

Taylor,

Tell him you held a Dickhead contest on the campfire........................

and Northwest Alaska won it as the prize.

You can name the runners up.

Where do I send my invoice???????????

this my so my brother got custody of both his lids when they turned 13 and told the judge they wanted to live with him.

Also in NYS there was a specific time period (Long past due... January 15, 2014) in which an "Assault Weapon" could be registered and kept.

Was it registered?

If not, A person who fails to apply to register an assault weapon on or before January 15, 2014, can be guilty of a Class A misdemeanor.

You would almost definitely loose your pistol permit, and maybe all your weapons...

Just sayin,... Welcome to NYS....

OP lives in Colorado. The transfer would require a background check through an FFL.

Molon Labe

I've held back because how much of my dealings with my wife's ex do I want aired on a public forum? The racist fiasco with my daughter was resolved by the psychiatrist and it wasn't in the ex-husband's favor. The therapist found my daughter a well adjusted 12 year old, and the father needed to be willing to compromise on restaurant and activities that they could both find mutually agreeable according to the copy of the medical transcript we got. Nice thing about military hospitals they make everything available to my wife.

Again it was never really about him wanting the rifle back, it was about getting law enforcement to take it from us. However, after the multiple text and email threats yesterday he's been running silent today. I'm guessing he was told by the ATF that if he wanted to do something he should have done it years ago.

There's a PROVOST MARSHALL wherever this individual is stationed / assigned / contracted / employed,....

A COMPLETE report about ALL of this should have been on his desk, submitted as a complaint couched in the STRONGEST language, as opposed to being put out for review on an outdoors / shooting website.

The top brass at the place should have been CC'd with the same docs, as well.

I'm going to respectfully suggest you consider doing just that, as opposed to posting here and than "guessing".

The guy wants to mess with you and your missus' minds,...and you are ALLOWING him to do so.

GTC

Perhaps someone tuned him into the ramifications of the Safe Act and how it might pertain to him in this instance.

Good one, Jorge!

Oops.

He's been smart enough to stop short of anything considered harassing or threatening by the law or military standards. We've been told our best option is to pursue it as a civil matter in court. However, if we start something in the courts what resolution are we going to get? We'll still have to deal with him because we won't get his parental rights terminated here in Colorado.

Then there is the fact he's more of an SOB to my daughter when he has lost in court. Every time he's taken us to court he has lost, and lost badly. He hasn't requested any parenting time this year, not that my daughter would get on the plane but she doesn't need that kind of stress.

Fair enough,....I guess your "point" is that you're planning to remain in a mess triangulated by

* The f***ed up lieberal State of N.Y.

*The f***ED up lieberal State of Colorado

*The F***ed up general condition of today's LBGT .military
"regulations"

best of luck

GTC

Has anyone considered that this may just be a "jerk around" thread ?

the OP has been given some excellent advice (and some insane), yet finds more excuses to keep dragging it on and on and on.

amid pages and pages of "thoughts" the OP has yet to tell us WHO this guy is and IF he is military or not.

the only good facts and opinion i can find are mine on SAFE ACT prohibitions and GTC's on a complaint to to the Provost Marshall.

"you can lead a horse" etc..

pass the chips.

It isn't a jerk around thread, I had a question and got my answer. Now several posters want my family to take it further in the courts, we've already tried that option. Several civilian and JAG lawyers have said we don't have enough evidence for them to pursue. The rest is just me venting my frustrations.

Here is some advice. If you want actual real advice, go pay someone for it and then take him at his word.

+10 to JB


again:

"amid pages and pages of "thoughts" the OP has yet to tell us WHO this guy is and IF he is military or not."

assume we have heard the last of this soap opera.

If it was my rifle I'd want it back. If it was my dog I'd want it back. I kept my guns and got the dog during one of these rodeos one time...I did ok on that one!

If you wanted them very damn bad, maybe you should have thought about them sooner than 10 years down the road...

Si' Senor...I might even decide that at least 10 years prior.

Even RJ

Yep....if he wanted it that ship sailed when he left it behind

If you couldn't figure out the ex-husband is in the military then you didn't read all the hints I dropped. I'm also not stupid enough to outright say "WHO" he is.

Larry Root trying to play stupid games, again. Taylor, just ignore that POS.

corrected yet again.

the OP only said he was an instructor at woo poo. his knowledge of that institution is really lacking IF he thinks all instructors there are military.

adds to my thought that this is just a thread that lacks credibility and is just a diversion to entertain the OP.

think about it: if the OP, his wife and step-daughter are in CO and the evil EX in NY, the EX would have to spend a lot of legal coin to make the CO folks as miserable as the OP claims.

all this over a 10 year + old gun ? come on, anyone with a room temp IQ would have consigned that gun to a deep lake, ignored the EX's emails and not STILL be seeking advice from a bunch of guys who have no dog in the fight.

as hillary would say: "time to move along."

take a laxative stool boy....you got the root up your ass?

I personally know the OP his wife and daughter. I don't know the ex-husband but I do know the b.s. tit for tat games he pulls with them.

This is why it's a good idea to sell anything that the other person may be attached too....

Sorry dude, I sold it... Done.

Take it to Cabelas or some place you get a receipt for selling it, that way you have a legal transfer you can show them if anyone asks.... If you use the money to buy your own, who cares..

Good for you ...... My step father was a great guy. He was my Dad.

Well if it's Larry that explains a lot, especially this statement.



He came in on page 9 on my computer and bringing up the "SAFE" act, which was first mentioned on page 2. As one of the only good facts supplied by him. Plus I already knew about it that's why I mentioned in my first post I stated.



It also tells me he didn't read all the posts I made when he posted this.







Thanks SC!