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http://www.trunews.com/article/john-mccains-1969-tokyo-rose-propaganda-recording-released

August 04, 2016



Vero Beach, FL - (TRUNEWS) U.S. Senator John McCain recorded a Tokyo Rose-style propaganda message that was broadcast on North Vietnamese radio in 1969.

TRUNEWS, a nonprofit Christian digital news app, obtained the bombshell audio recording and released it today on the organization’s daily newscast hosted by Rick Wiles. TRUNEWS acquired the audio recording in cooperation with WeSearchR.com, a new media company founded by Charles Johnson.

The 1969 North Vietnamese radio broadcast has never been heard in the United States of America. In fact, there has never been any knowledge that such a recording existed. The audio recording was found in a misplaced file in the National Archives in Washington, D.C. The broadcast was recorded by the Foreign Broadcast Information Service, a branch of the CIA that monitored international shortwave and foreign radio broadcasts.

Lt. Commander John McCain was shot down over Hanoi by a North Vietnamese missile while flying his 23rd bombing mission. Both of his arms and one leg were broken. He was pulled ashore by North Vietnamese who took him to a prison known by POWs as the “Hanoi Hilton.”

McCain was a prisoner of war for five and a half years. He was released on March 14, 1973, and returned to the United States of America as a war hero. His POW legacy propelled McCain to victory in a race for a U.S. Congressional seat in Arizona in 1982. He replaced Barry Goldwater in the Senate in 1986.

In the propaganda recording, Lt. Commander McCain said he was “guilty of crimes against the Vietnamese country and people.” He confessed that he bombed “their cities, towns, and villages and caused many injuries, even deaths, for the people of Vietnam.”

He praised the medical care and kindness of his communist captors even though he came to North Vietnam as “an aggressor.” McCain said he wished to express his “deep gratitude” for their “kind treatment” and that he “will never forget” the kindness extended to him by the communist North Vietnamese.

Senator McCain is running for a sixth six-year term in the Senate. He is facing a strong primary challenge from former State Senator Dr. Kelli Ward, a physician in Lake Havasu.

The Arizona Republican Primary is August 30. Sen. McCain will turn age 80 on the day before the primary.

Here is the actual script of John McCain’s 1969 “Tokyo Rose” propaganda broadcast on North Vietnamese radio.


To the Vietnamese people and the government of the DRVN:

From John Sidney McCain, 624787, Lieutenant Commander, U.S. Navy, born 29 August, 1936, Panama, home state Oregon. Shot down 26 October, 1967, A-4E aircraft.

I, as a U.S. airman, am guilty of crimes against the Vietnamese country and people. I bombed their cities, towns and villages and caused many injuries, even deaths, for the people of Vietnam.

I was captured in the capital city of Hanoi, while attacking it. After I was captured, I was taken to the hospital in Hanoi, where I received very good medical treatment. I was given an operation on my leg, which allowed me to walk again, and a cast on my right arm, which was badly broken in three places.

The doctors were very good and they knew a great deal about the practice of medicine. I remained in the hospital for some time and regained much of my health and strength. Since I arrived in the camp of detention, I received humane and lenient treatment.

I received this kind treatment and food even though I came here as an aggressor and the people who I injured have much difficulty in their living standards. I wish to express my deep gratitude for my kind treatment and I will never forget this kindness extended to me.



If you were handcuffed to the wall of a stench hole of a Vietnamese prison, and gooks were sticking pitchforks into your ass, and you were starving and being tortured daily, and the gooks told you to read this statement, you would probably read the statement, too.
Got little problem with any POW's actions under legit stress.
To compare what McCain did to Tokyo Rose is disgraceful and shows willful ignorance.

McCain refused North Vietnam's offer of early release for propaganda purposes unless all POW's held for longer than him were released as well. He served heroically while in prison.
I don't much care for the demented old fool, at this point in his play.
.....that said,
...This post is one of the more chickenchit, underhanded, and totally pathetic POLITICAL moves one could make.

GTC
Non-story, even though McCain is a POS senator
Things got especially rough for US Navy Lieutenant Commander John McCain when the VC realized that his father was Admiral John McCain, commander of all U.S.N. forces in Vietnam.

In Faith of My Fathers, McCain said that he initially offered the information because he was badly injured and afraid of dying. But, he wrote, "I didn't intend to keep my word."
McCain gave his ship's name and squadron number and confirmed the target of his failed mission.
He gave the names of the Green Bay Packers' offensive line as members of his squadron.
When asked to identify future targets, he named North Vietnamese cities that U.S. planes had already bombed.

Orson Swindle: "We were all tortured and we wrote confessions under the pressure of torture," said Swindle, a cellmate of McCain. "John McCain never collaborated with the enemy. He, like every one of us, submitted to severe torture. John McCain did nothing dishonorable. He was heroic."

“In his 'confession' McCain deliberately used misspellings, grammatical errors and Communist jargon to show he was writing under duress: I am a black criminal and I have performed the deeds of an air pirate. I almost died, and the Vietnamese people saved my life . . .
Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
Non-story, even though McCain is a POS senator


Agree.
Jesus....

One thing I'll never question in my life is what a POW did under duress and lived to make it home alive.

I knew one very well (a card carrying union Democrat) and cant, won't ever question what he did or didnt do starving in a railcar for over a year.

McCain deserves criticism, perhaps getting the electoral boot.....but this post is an un-American, horseshit post.

It belongs in the [bleep] basement...
Originally Posted by crossfireoops
I don't much care for the demented old fool, at this point in his play.
.....that said,
...This post is one of the more chickenchit, underhanded, and totally pathetic POLITICAL moves one could make.

GTC


I just posted the exact title of the story as in the link, without comment.

Now my comment: after his release and election to the Senate, John McCain fought to bury/abandon the POW's left behind. We may never live to see the truth behind that devilry. The UK has sealed records from WWII for 100 years, I suspect a similar fate on Vietnam POW information.
hay, gonehuntin. how many years did you spend in the Hanoi Hilton? Have you ever been tortured? Held in solitary confinement for months? Ever been shot out of the sky while serving your country and in the process had both your arms and one leg broken? Who are you to condemn John McCain? I say STFU
Originally Posted by super T
hay, gonehuntin. how many years did you spend in the Hanoi Hilton? Have you ever been tortured? Held in solitary confinement for months? Ever been shot out of the sky while serving your country and in the process had both your arms and one leg broken? Who are you to condemn John McCain? I say STFU you POS.


I posted the story without comment, exactly as at the link I provided. There are stories, tales, and facts from WWI, WWII, Korea, and Vietnam that have yet to see the light of day. I'm in favor of revealing the truth, your discomfort is from within yourself. Not all history is pleasant with a happy ending.
Originally Posted by gonehuntin
Originally Posted by crossfireoops
I don't much care for the demented old fool, at this point in his play.
.....that said,
...This post is one of the more chickenchit, underhanded, and totally pathetic POLITICAL moves one could make.

GTC


I just posted the exact title of the story as in the link, without comment.

Now my comment: after his release and election to the Senate, John McCain fought to bury/abandon the POW's left behind. We may never live to see the truth behind that devilry. The UK has sealed records from WWII for 100 years, I suspect a similar fate on Vietnam POW information.


Just as Palin has been attacked, so has her running mate.//www.miafacts.org/mccain.htm
Summary.  For some years now there have been steady attacks on the valor and patriotism of Senator John McCain (Republican, Arizona).  McCain was a Navy aviator, shot down over North Vietnam on 26 October 1967 and released at Operation Homecoming in March 1973.  He was severely injured in his ejection and landing and endured unspeakable tortures.  The attacks on McCain originate almost entirely from a small number of Vietnam veterans.  Many of his attackers accuse him of collaborating with his Vietnamese captors, in spite of testimony from other POWs as to his bravery, leadership, and valorous conduct.  Why and from where come the attacks on McCain?  The source of the attacks on McCain is, mainly, one  MIA "activist" who  accuses McCain of treasonous activities; his accusations are based on misquotes, misrepresentations, and Vietnamese wartime propaganda.  Yet, this story has gained the status of gospel among the McCain haters and the MIA "activists."  Read on for the rest of the story.
[...]
McCain's Position on US-Vietnam Relations and on the "Live-POW" Question
In the late 1980's, McCain took the position that the US should move toward normal diplomatic relations with Vietnam in return for their increased cooperation on the MIA issue.
 
Sampley recognized -- as does the rest of the "activist" community -- that such talk in high places can be disastrous to their efforts to recruit and to raise money.  Their recruiting and fund raising pitch is the same:  US POWs are still being held, alive, in Vietnam and we need just a few more dollars from you to free them.
 
As US researchers probe into Vietnamese wartime records, and as US search teams recover remains from crashsites and battlefield gravesites, the number of unaccounted for Americans goes down.  More importantly, it is clear from the information collected that no American POWs were retained in captivity after Operation Homecoming.  The "activists" do not want this information to become known because they depend on folks falling prey to their claims and then donating money or other support -- such as the proliferation of "POW-MIA Remembrance Sites" on the WWW.

McCain refused to be drawn into the live POW battles and he continued to support normal US-Vietnam relations.  For a returned POW to take these two positions was more than the "activist" community could stand.
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
...it is clear from the information collected that no American POWs were retained in captivity after Operation Homecoming.


That, right there, is bullschit.












Originally Posted by simonkenton7
If you were handcuffed to the wall of a stench hole of a Vietnamese prison, and gooks were sticking pitchforks into your ass, and you were starving and being tortured daily, and the gooks told you to read this statement, you would probably read the statement, too.


EXACTLY, and to those who've not served, the Code Of Conduct allows for this
Originally Posted by simonkenton7
If you were handcuffed to the wall of a stench hole of a Vietnamese prison, and gooks were sticking pitchforks into your ass, and you were starving and being tortured daily, and the gooks told you to read this statement, you would probably read the statement, too.
Human beings have limits to how much torture they can tolerate.
Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
Non-story, even though McCain is a POS senator

Yup....well said.

If one cannot separate McCAIN'S military career from his political record, then you're a ripe victim for the Hillary express.

McCain is a great example of what is seriously wrong with the Republican party.
I personally don't like McCain but everyone has a breaking point, just takes some longer to reach it than others under torture and duress.
John McCain has done more harm to the United States than he has ever done to North Vietnam.
Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by simonkenton7
If you were handcuffed to the wall of a stench hole of a Vietnamese prison, and gooks were sticking pitchforks into your ass, and you were starving and being tortured daily, and the gooks told you to read this statement, you would probably read the statement, too.
Human beings have limits to how much torture they can tolerate.


I agree. And I at the end of my limits of McCain's torturing America and Americans. He's a traitor and a sellout. He sure as hell ain't a hero.
I applaud McCain for his bravery and service in Vietnam.

But right now the guy is an incredible liability to the US. He's turned into a figure comparable to another US hero, Benedict Arnold. All I have to say to him is "All's fair in love & war". Whatever it takes to remove that bastard from office is OK by me.
BarryC,

What bravery did McCain exhibit in Vietnam?
Originally Posted by crossfireoops
I don't much care for the demented old fool, at this point in his play.
.....that said,
...This post is one of the more chickenchit, underhanded, and totally pathetic POLITICAL moves one could make.

GTC


This, Chickenschit at best.

I can't stand John McCain but he was a war hero and that should never be trivialized for any reason and that includes getting rid of him.

He should be gotten rid of because his performance in congress not his performance in war.
Originally Posted by SakoAV
BarryC,

What bravery did McCain exhibit in Vietnam?

For one, staying with his fellow POWs.

I think you're smarter than that question.
BarryC,

Here's an authentic American hero who ought to have his image on the 20 dollar bill if the US Treasury is set to remove Ole Hickory:



Don't tarnish the heroism of men like Sgt Benavidez by telling me that McCain is a hero. Getting shot down and captured does not qualify for hero status.

McCain wouldn't have deserved to be in same state as Sgt. Benavidez.

He stayed with his fellow POW's because he was presented with a Hobson's choice. The North Vietnamese set him up because of his daddy's status with the US Navy. The North Vietnamese won either way.
SakoAV and gonehuntin, I don't use the obscenities that your posts require.


To the rest of you with more sense and reason, I could not agree more.
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What bravery did McCain exhibit in Vietnam?


Just showing up and flying a mission, is enough.


He is a sorry Senator and should be booted out. miles
Originally Posted by RockyRaab
SakoAV and gonehuntin, I don't use the obscenities that your posts require.


To the rest of you with more sense and reason, I could not agree more.


Facts would work a lot better. But if you're operational level reaches only obscenities, get 'er dun.

Read Vincent Bugliosi's book on OJ. He'll explain the true essence of hero to you. Getting shot down doing your job does not make a hero. Volunteering to place you life at risk to rescue to pilot does. Got it?
Originally Posted by milespatton
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What bravery did McCain exhibit in Vietnam?


Just showing up and flying a mission, is enough.


miles


So signing up to do a job would make one a hero?
Quote
Read Vincent Bugliosi's book on OJ. He'll explain the true essence of hero to you. Getting shot down doing your job does not make a hero. Volunteering to place you life at risk to rescue to pilot does. Got it?


You seem not to know to Whoom you speak. You are talking to a hero of the Vietnam War. miles
Originally Posted by milespatton
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Read Vincent Bugliosi's book on OJ. He'll explain the true essence of hero to you. Getting shot down doing your job does not make a hero. Volunteering to place you life at risk to rescue to pilot does. Got it?


You seem not to know to Whoom you speak. You are talking to a hero of the Vietnam War. miles
Thank you for your service to our country Miles. smile
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Thank you for your service to our country Miles


I was not talking about me, although I was there. Rocky is a Hero though.
Originally Posted by milespatton
Quote
Read Vincent Bugliosi's book on OJ. He'll explain the true essence of hero to you. Getting shot down doing your job does not make a hero. Volunteering to place you life at risk to rescue to pilot does. Got it?


You seem not to know to Whoom you speak. You are talking to a hero of the Vietnam War. miles


What difference would it make since we're arguing facts?

Miles, you're grasping at logical fallacy in effort to try to foist your untenable opinion upon others: "He's such & such and as such & such, you can't disagree with him."

I don't give a cit who he is. He's wrong in defending media's portrayal of McCain as hero. He's a traitor to America and Americans.

If McCain's a hero for doing his job, so is every single other soldier who served in Vietnam, more so for those that were able to perform the duties of their jobs without being captured.

As Vincent Bugliosi pointed out, Americans have been propagandized by media to accept their pronouncements of heroes.
Phuctards that condem McCain for getting shot down and captured would also have to disparage any soldiers who were wounded, killed or had a mission go south. I am not a fan of the Senator, but be realistic and respect the mans service.
I personally don't think McCain is a Hero, getting caught and being a POW just doesn't qualify you for that title
Miles,

What did Rocky do during the Vietnam War that has earned him hero status?

Thanks.
Originally Posted by Dillonbuck
Phuctards that condem McCain for getting shot down and captured would also have to disparage any soldiers who were wounded, killed or had a mission go south. I am not a fan of the Senator, but be realistic and respect the mans service.


A classic non sequitur, which means it's logical fallacy.
Quote
So signing up to do a job would make one a hero?


Depending on the job, sure. Running off to Canada, or getting deferments did not, although some deferments were in the right. Not going to go through all of the ins and outs of a war long gone. Lots of hero's here at the fire though. miles
BarryC,

I don't think that you're smarter than your answer.

Research why McCain stayed with his soldiers. It had zero to do with his wanting to stay with his soldiers. You'd be wise to start by reading about his daddy.

Knowledge is power. Get strong.
He can tell you if He wants to, but He put Himself in harms way on a regular basis to fight for all of us. miles
Originally Posted by SakoAV
Originally Posted by milespatton

You seem not to know to Whoom you speak. You are talking to a hero of the Vietnam War. miles


What difference would it make since we're arguing facts?

But the thing is you aren't arguing facts - you are making a value judgment. You may not think staying in the Hanoi Hilton when you could leave is very heroic, but a lot of people do.

Heroism comes in degrees. Some people judge pulling a cat out of a tree as heroic, other people think heroicism doesn't start until a life is at risk. Both are valid opinions.
I personally do not like John McCain`s politics.That being said there are some real chickenchit comments made on a man who endured more than most could.Is he a hero for that.Fuggin A he is.Most of the bad mouther`s here would have folded with in a week.That is why they bad mouth McCain,because they judge him by being cowards themselves.
Originally Posted by SakoAV
Miles,

What did Rocky do during the Vietnam War that has earned him hero status?

Thanks.


....haven't a f*rckin CLUE, do you.

Why go to the trouble of getting to know the members here,....oh , that's right, just a slimy paid troll, gone after November.

GTC
Originally Posted by milespatton
Quote
So signing up to do a job would make one a hero?


Depending on the job, sure. Running off to Canada, or getting deferments did not, although some deferments were in the right. Not going to go through all of the ins and outs of a war long gone. Lots of hero's here at the fire though. miles


A hero is one you goes above and beyond the call of duty. Tell me how McCain went above and beyond the call of his duty.

If you watched what Sgt. Benavidez did, you'd see the personification of an authentic hero.

Read this book. It will enlighten you of the reasons we allowed our government, specifically that effing criminal, LBJ, to fight a war that was none of our efffing business.

I've known a lot of Vietnam veterans, including an Airborne officer who is an authentic Vietnam War hero. None had a thing good to say about the South Vietnamese. They wouldn't even fight for their own country. President Trump oughta deport every last one, for they are the antithesis of patriotic. If they wouldn't fight for their own country, why should we expect them to be loyal to the USA?
crossfireoops,

Has the uncharged felon given you a day off?
Originally Posted by milespatton
Quote
Thank you for your service to our country Miles


I was not talking about me, although I was there. Rocky is a Hero though.
Gotcha,both of you are Hero's in my book,along with John McCain.
Originally Posted by Huntz
I personally do not like John McCain`s politics.That being said there are some real chickenchit comments made on a man who endured more than most could.Is he a hero for that.Fuggin A he is.Most of the bad mouther`s here would have folded with in a week.That is why they bad mouth McCain,because they judge him by being cowards themselves.


We wouldn't have allowed ourselves to be captured.

I wouldn't do well in captivity. I'd fight until death. It would be preferred to captivity. And I'm sure that that's exactly what many America soldiers did.
Originally Posted by SakoAV
crossfireoops,

Has the uncharged felon given you a day off?


Got some advice for you, C*cksucker.
STAY anonymous, and STFA from any gatherings of regular members here.
Can't see you leaving a campfire gathering on anything but a gurney, if you run your mouth like you run your fingers on that keyboard.

GTC
Thanks, miles and crossfire, but he doesn't really deserve a response.
Quote
Miles, you're grasping at logical fallacy in effort to try to foist your untenable opinion upon others:


Where to start? You are telling a Hero that He needs to read a book by somebody or another, on how to be a hero.

Quote
I don't give a cit who he is.


Another problem taking anything that you say seriously.

Quote
If McCain's a hero for doing his job, so is every single other soldier who served in Vietnam, more so for those that were able to perform the duties of their jobs without being captured.


Very true, but most don't look at it that way.

Quote
As Vincent Bugliosi pointed out, Americans have been propagandized by media to accept their pronouncements of heroes.


And here we are listening to you trying to make your pronouncement about who and why we should consider anybody a hero. miles
Gee. Think he might have been water boarded?
Just happened to be found in the Notional Archives just when a national election is going on and one of the hopefulls is the Donald who claimed McCain was not a hero to him. Press will have fun with this.
Quote
We wouldn't have allowed ourselves to be captured.

I wouldn't do well in captivity. I'd fight until death.


When and where did you serve?

A hero is usually just a man doing His job, even when it goes bad, and He keeps on doing it. miles
Originally Posted by BarryC
Originally Posted by SakoAV
Originally Posted by milespatton

You seem not to know to Whoom you speak. You are talking to a hero of the Vietnam War. miles


What difference would it make since we're arguing facts?

But the thing is you aren't arguing facts - you are making a value judgment. You may not think staying in the Hanoi Hilton when you could leave is very heroic, but a lot of people do.

Heroism comes in degrees. Some people judge pulling a cat out of a tree as heroic, other people think heroicism doesn't start until a life is at risk. Both are valid opinions.



And you're 100% wrong, yet you're willing to stoop to the inane. Saving a cat does not make one a hero. Going above and beyond the call of duty makes one a hero. A fireman running into a burning building to save a child is not a hero, unless there was little to no chance of survival. That is his job He'd be fired for cowardice if he didn't. Firemen rushing into the WTC knowing that they probably wouldn't be able to get anyone out alive is going above and beyond the call of duty.

A cop confronting armed bank robbers is doing his job. He'd be fired for cowardice if he didn't. Leaving a position of cover and running through a hail of bullets before help could arrive to rescue a wounded lady would make him a hero.

BarryC, you seem to be a creature of media's revise definition of hero. I'm old school. If you're fulfilling duties of your job description, you're not a hero. You're doing merely what you've agreed to do. If you go above and beyond the call of duty, you might be a hero.
Originally Posted by SakoAV
BarryC,

What bravery did McCain exhibit in Vietnam?


I'm gonna guess you've never served...much less willingly flew a fighter/bomber into heavily defended enemy territory where you knew you'd be the target of anti aircraft artillery and missiles...not to mention everybody with a shoulder fired rifle sending bullets in your direction with the intent to kill you???

I'd bet money you wouldn't even have the balls required to take off and land a jet from the pitching & rolling deck of a carrier.

Originally Posted by milespatton
Quote
We wouldn't have allowed ourselves to be captured.

I wouldn't do well in captivity. I'd fight until death.


When and where did you serve?

A hero is usually just a man doing His job, even when it goes bad, and He keeps on doing it. miles


Miles when and where I served is a diversion and has no bearing on this topic.

A hero goes above an beyond the call of duty. Doing one's job does not make one a hero.

Miles, this might help mitigate your confusion:

"The Medal of Honor is the highest military decoration that may be awarded by the United States government. It is presented by the President of the United States, in the name of Congress, and is conferred only upon members of the United States Armed Forces who distinguish themselves through conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of life above and beyond the call of duty:"

Valor
Originally Posted by Middlefork_Miner
Originally Posted by SakoAV
BarryC,

What bravery did McCain exhibit in Vietnam?


I'm gonna guess you've never served...much less willingly flew a fighter/bomber into heavily defended enemy territory where you knew you'd be the target of anti aircraft artillery and missiles...not to mention everybody with a shoulder fired rifle sending bullets in your direction with the intent to kill you???

I'd bet money you wouldn't even have the balls required to take off and land a jet from the pitching & rolling deck of a carrier.



So you're saying that every single aviator assigned to an aircraft carrier group is a hero regardless of whether he has ever made contact with the enemy? Is that what you're saving?
Quote
Miles when and where I served is a diversion and has no bearing on this topic.


You made it have a bearing, when you stated how you would act in certain circumstances. Only way to know is if you have been there. I suspect that you have not.

Quote
Miles, this might help mitigate your confusion:


I am not confused. I know what the Medal of Honor is, but there are other Heroic things done in every war, and most are not even reported. Please tell me of your experiences. miles
miles,

It's a whole lot more wise to go on knowledge than supposition. I was never in the US military, one of my biggest regrets. However, while people were running from extreme danger (56 murdered), we drove right into the heart of it knowing that LA bangers wanted to kill us. I've never considered myself a hero, ever, even though some politician conferred some bullshit letter to me. I was merely doing my job. I volunteered to go while citizens were running away. That didn't make me a hero. Even the fact that bangers wanted to kill us didn't make me a hero. That was my job description.
Originally Posted by SakoAV
miles,

It's a whole lot more wise to go on knowledge than supposition. I was never in the US military, one of my biggest regrets. However, while people were running from extreme danger (56 murdered), we drove right into the heart of it knowing that LA bangers wanted to kill us. I've never considered myself a hero, ever, even though some politician conferred some bullshit letter to me. I was merely doing my job. I volunteered to go while citizens were running away. That didn't make me a hero. Even the fact that bangers wanted to kill us didn't make me a hero. That was my job description.


You are full of schitt....
Originally Posted by SakoAV
Originally Posted by Middlefork_Miner


I'd bet money you wouldn't even have the balls required to take off and land a jet from the pitching & rolling deck of a carrier.



So you're saying that every single aviator assigned to an aircraft carrier group is a hero regardless of whether he has ever made contact with the enemy? Is that what you're saving?


You can't read?
miles,

On the very first day at my job, I had to sign a non-negotiation agreement. Succinctly, it meant that were I taken hostage, my boss would not negotiate my release. His policy was to not negotiate with bad guys.

Most cops I knew carried second guns. I never did. If a bad guy got me in a compromising position, he was not getting my gun. It was going to end right there. I would've relied upon my training. Hopefully I'd of survived. But if not, he was dying with me.

Cops learn from dissecting cop murders. Cops learned from the Onion Field that if you surrender your gun, you're surrendering your life.

I've had to attend continuing education courses every two years. A segment of one was resolving my death. Cop funerals aren't for dead cops. They're for living cops. They're displays to fellow cops that if the die in the line of duty, there families will be taken care of with no worries. The intent is to placate cops' fears for their families so that they will be willing to go into harm's way.

After I signed that non-negotiation agreement and knowing the tragic outcome of the Onion Field, I had resolved to die right there taking the bad guy with me before I gave up my gun and allowing him to do what he wanted with me. I was not going to surrender that power to a dirtbag. That's why I never carried a second gun. I knew I was never going to need it. If I were going to die, it would be while shooting my duty gun.

miles, hopefully, you've never had to make such a decision, so you might not be able to grasp what I've written. However, other cops know the validity of what I've written.
Middle_Fork Miner,

OK.

I hope you enjoy a spectacular day.


Take care,

Sako.
Quote
so you might not be able to grasp what I've written.


I grasp very well. You are a legend in your own mind. miles
No hard feelings. I wish you well.


Take care, miles,

Sako
Originally Posted by BarryC
I applaud McCain for his bravery and service in Vietnam.

But right now the guy is an incredible liability to the US. He's turned into a figure comparable to another US hero, Benedict Arnold. All I have to say to him is "All's fair in love & war". Whatever it takes to remove that bastard from office is OK by me.
Agreed.
Sako,

I'm not going to take sides, as I don't really have to.

you are arguing with two Vietnam Veterans, who've been there and done that. They both know that I respect them greatly, and also respect the service they did for their country as young men. They owe an apology to no one.

But they also certainly don't deserve the words you are directing toward them.

I sat a a few campfires with Miles, and despite being a real down to earth guy, there is not ONE among us, that does not think the world of the guy.

And Rocky....., where to even start....

growing up as a Military Dependent, and spending my youth on military bases from 66 to 73 where guys were either going to Vietnam or coming home from Vietnam.....and having a dad that spent 49 months total in Vietnam, flying Unmarked C 130 BlackBird Missions... I'm aware of what it was to put oneself in harms way... on a daily basis.

Rocky Raab probably exposed himself to more danger in a week during Vietnam, than you've seen in a lifetime.

You are questioning two guys with IMPECCABLE integrity, that have served their nation, far up and beyond the call of duty, yet you'll never see them bragging about it on a daily basis.

I've served my time, and was sent to Ft Lewis, when the other guys I was drafted with were sent to Vietnam. Working in a military hospital, I've seen a zillion more hero Vets than most will ever see... and with that alone, I can tell you I feel a small fraction of the man that either one of these fine gentlemen are.

My advise to you is to just drop it. Its the better part of common sense. TRue heroes don't have to brag, as they don't feel a need to have to prove a damned thing to anyone.
You are questioning two gentlemen of that caliber.
Quote
TRUNEWS, a nonprofit Christian digital news app, obtained the bombshell audio recording and released it today


Phughk these people, and their phony "Christian" bullscat.

Hang them up by their thumbs for a few weeks and see what they thought.

Sycamore
Originally Posted by SakoAV
miles,

On the very first day at my job, I had to sign a non-negotiation agreement. Succinctly, it meant that were I taken hostage, my boss would not negotiate my release. His policy was to not negotiate with bad guys.

Most cops I knew carried second guns. I never did. If a bad guy got me in a compromising position, he was not getting my gun. It was going to end right there. I would've relied upon my training. Hopefully I'd of survived. But if not, he was dying with me.

Cops learn from dissecting cop murders. Cops learned from the Onion Field that if you surrender your gun, you're surrendering your life.

I've had to attend continuing education courses every two years. A segment of one was resolving my death. Cop funerals aren't for dead cops. They're for living cops. They're displays to fellow cops that if the die in the line of duty, there families will be taken care of with no worries. The intent is to placate cops' fears for their families so that they will be willing to go into harm's way.

After I signed that non-negotiation agreement and knowing the tragic outcome of the Onion Field, I had resolved to die right there taking the bad guy with me before I gave up my gun and allowing him to do what he wanted with me. I was not going to surrender that power to a dirtbag. That's why I never carried a second gun. I knew I was never going to need it. If I were going to die, it would be while shooting my duty gun.

miles, hopefully, you've never had to make such a decision, so you might not be able to grasp what I've written. However, other cops know the validity of what I've written.


You are Take A Knee, right?
Originally Posted by SakoAV
BarryC,

What bravery did McCain exhibit in Vietnam?


You are obviously naive or are being obtuse. First, take of and land of aircraft carriers with full combat loads in all weather and day & night. Second, go into what was the most formidable Integrated Air Defense System (IADS) in history layered in Surface To Air Missiles, heavy, medium and light AAA to cover all altitudes. Using pre-ordained "Route Packages" so the enemy knew your ingress and egress routes. Getting shot down and suffering severe injuries on ejection. Surviving years of torture at the hands of the gooks and REFUSING to go home early when given the chance. Recipient of the Silver Star. Does that work for you, ACE?
Seafire,

You've misread my post. I did not write a thing about Vietnam veterans in general. I did write that Trump is 100% right: McCain is no hero. He did nothing heroic. He merely did his job.

I have absolute respect for our military. Our soldiers are the best in the world. Some of the cops I've most respected were Vietnam vets. Were I accorded a life do-over, I'd of joined the military.

I've worked with two authentic Vietnam War heroes. They were both heavily decorated for valor. Neither ever spoke of their valor. Another Vietnam vet with whom I've had the pleasure of working with and calling my friend was shot and nearly killed trying two arrest two LA bangers for murder. In fact he did die. Surgeons battled God for his life. God allowed the surgeons to win, assuredly because He saw only good in my friend.

When I was young and impressionable, I had supported Truman's Domino Theory. I was wrong. We lost 58,000 brave American soldiers for what? So the CIA could pull heroin out of Southeast Asia? So private bankers and the military-industrial complex could make a ton of taxpayers' money because of the existence of the Federal Reserve Act and the 16th Amendment?

BTW, if you have a library near you, The Politics of Heroin in Southeast Asia might just leave you disgusted with Vietnam War era politicians.

If we were going to fight that damned Vietnam War, we should have fought it without restrictions. We should have fought it to win. Bomb the holy chit outta everything that moved. When in doubt, shoot. The Viet Cong would routinely disguise themselves as peasant farmers. Our soldiers don't die. The enemy's soldiers do.

LBJ was an effing war criminal. He sacrificed our soldiers. He should be disinterred and buried at sea next to bin Laden.

Our Founding Fathers were extremely prescient: stay the eff outta other countries' internal affairs. Hell, not even the South Vietnamese weren't willing to fight for their country. If they weren't willing to fight for their corrupt country, how in God's name could American politicians expect American mothers and fathers to send their sons to Vietnam only to come home in metal caskets?

One of the reasons I love Trump is because he won't fight any of neocons' stupid wars of imperialism. He's a non-interventionist, just like our Founding Fathers. And our Founding Fathers created a republic, not an empire. Empires destroy themselves just as democracies destroy themselves.

Our military should protect and defend the USA and only the USA. That's how our Founding Fathers intended. That's the way it oughta be. Trump will make it that way. If by some miracle the uncharged felon is elected, she'll have us in a bullshit war with Iran within a year. Iran is no threat to the USA.

There is no doubt that if President Trump has to send our soldiers in harm's way, he will do so without restriction. He will have a clearly defined mission that involves the security of the USA. And he will tell our soldiers to win and survive. Our soldiers will come home alive. Our enemy will pay dearly for threatening the security of the USA.

Anyway, the definition of a hero is going above and beyond the call of duty.

I can't say what McCain should have done. However, our brave soldiers who fought that war seem to all say that they knew to never allow themselves to be captured by the North Vietnamese, that they would have fought to the death. I just saw a program about the SAS, which has been ranked as the best special forces unit in the world. An SAS soldier said that he saved one bullet for himself before he'd of allowed himself to be captured by the Taliban.

Here's the neocons' plan for our soldiers:

BTW, just because McCain isn't a hero doesn't imply that he shouldn't be recognized for serving our country. For that and that alone, he deserves recognition.

Bob Dole lost use of his arm during WWII as a result of a battle wound. He has never sought recognition as hero.
Originally Posted by SakoAV
He's wrong in defending media's portrayal of McCain as hero. He's a traitor to America and Americans.


You're wrong. That badge of cowardice & fraternizing with the enemy goes to Jane Fonda.
Originally Posted by Middlefork_Miner
Originally Posted by SakoAV
miles,

It's a whole lot more wise to go on knowledge than supposition. I was never in the US military, one of my biggest regrets. However, while people were running from extreme danger (56 murdered), we drove right into the heart of it knowing that LA bangers wanted to kill us. I've never considered myself a hero, ever, even though some politician conferred some bullshit letter to me. I was merely doing my job. I volunteered to go while citizens were running away. That didn't make me a hero. Even the fact that bangers wanted to kill us didn't make me a hero. That was my job description.


You are full of schitt....


Keyboard Commando.

[Linked Image]
Originally Posted by Reloder28
Originally Posted by SakoAV
He's wrong in defending media's portrayal of McCain as hero. He's a traitor to America and Americans.


You're wrong. That badge of cowardice & fraternizing with the enemy goes to Jane Fonda.


As a politician, McCain is a definitive neocon. In that capacity, he is a traitor to America and Americans.

My guess is you're good with sending Americans' jobs to Asia, replacing American's jobs in America with foreigners on H-1B visas, shipping more that 40,0000 American factories abroad, open borders allowing illegal aliens and heroin in hastening the destruction of our Occidental culture, compromising American sovereignty, the UN, the Federal Reserve, and interventionism where there is no threat to the USA.

I'm a nationalist who places America and Americans first. What would you call yourself? A globalist? A neocon in America's fifth column?

We know you'll stoop to neocon scum level by intentionally taking quotes out of context in order to advance an anti-America agenda.

You are but one of many neocons marching in America's fifth column who are lingering on the 'fire.

As a politician, McCain is a traitor to America and Americans.


Good luck to you, Reloader28
12344mag,

I'm good. I have nothing to prove.
Who has the Mall Ninja thread to post?
Quote
But they also certainly don't deserve the words you are directing toward them.


Thanks for the kind words John, but I am not worthy of being in the same conversation as Rocky and some others Here at the campfire. We have some here that the whole country should thank every day, for their service. In my mind Heroes do not start the day thinking that they will be heroes, but to do their job to the best of their ability, then something happens, that they have to do and see through to the end. That is the part that makes them heroes. They do not quit, nor think of themselves at the time. They just do what needs to be done, however hard. miles
Originally Posted by 12344mag
Who has the Mall Ninja thread to post?


This is what comes to mind when I see posts like SakoAV...

[Linked Image]
Precisely.
Originally Posted by SakoAV
miles,

It's a whole lot more wise to go on knowledge than supposition. I was never in the US military, one of my biggest regrets. However, while people were running from extreme danger (56 murdered), we drove right into the heart of it knowing that LA bangers wanted to kill us. I've never considered myself a hero, ever, even though some politician conferred some bullshit letter to me. I was merely doing my job. I volunteered to go while citizens were running away. That didn't make me a hero. Even the fact that bangers wanted to kill us didn't make me a hero. That was my job description.


Since you never served you have no right to comment ,period.You have to earn your bones and you did not.So STFU!!!
Originally Posted by SakoAV
Originally Posted by Reloder28
Originally Posted by SakoAV
He's wrong in defending media's portrayal of McCain as hero. He's a traitor to America and Americans.


You're wrong. That badge of cowardice & fraternizing with the enemy goes to Jane Fonda.


As a politician, McCain is a definitive neocon. In that capacity, he is a traitor to America and Americans.

My guess is you're good with sending Americans' jobs to Asia, replacing American's jobs in America with foreigners on H-1B visas, shipping more that 40,0000 American factories abroad, open borders allowing illegal aliens and heroin in hastening the destruction of our Occidental culture, compromising American sovereignty, the UN, the Federal Reserve, and interventionism where there is no threat to the USA.

I'm a nationalist who places America and Americans first. What would you call yourself? A globalist? A neocon in America's fifth column?

We know you'll stoop to neocon scum level by intentionally taking quotes out of context in order to advance an anti-America agenda.

You are but one of many neocons marching in America's fifth column who are lingering on the 'fire.

As a politician, McCain is a traitor to America and Americans.


Good luck to you, Reloader28


SakoV, you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Here is the definition of NeoCon from Wikipedia:

"Neoconservatism (commonly shortened to neocon) is a political movement born in the United States during the 1960s among Democrats who became disenchanted with the party's domestic and especially foreign policy. Many of its adherents became politically famous during the Republican presidential administrations of the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and 2000s. Neoconservatives peaked in influence during the administrations of George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush, when they played a major role in promoting and planning the 2003 invasion of Iraq.[1] Prominent neoconservatives in the George W. Bush administration included Paul Wolfowitz, John Bolton, Elliott Abrams, Richard Perle and Paul Bremer. Senior officials Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, while not identifying as neoconservatives, listened closely to neoconservative advisers regarding foreign policy, especially the defense of Israel and the promotion of democracy in the Middle East. Neoconservatives continue to have influence in the Obama administration and neoconservative ideology has continued as a factor in American foreign policy.[2][3]

"The term "neoconservative" refers to those who made the ideological journey from the anti-Stalinist Left to the camp of American conservatism. Neoconservatives typically advocate the promotion of democracy and promotion of American national interest in international affairs, including by means of military force and are known for espousing disdain for communism and for political radicalism.The movement had its intellectual roots in the Jewish monthly review magazine Commentary, published by the American Jewish Committee.[7][8] They spoke out against the New Left and in that way helped define the movement."


In the first place, John McCain is not a conservative. His lifetime rating with the ACU is 82% which makes him one of the more liberal Republican senators. Second, McCain has never been a "member of the Democrat Party who became disenchanted with Demomcrat foreign policy" and who thus "made the ideological journey from the anti-Stalinist Left to the camp of American conservatism." In other words, he is not a former man of the left who converted to conservatism. He is therefore, not a neo-conservative by definition."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

The fact that McCain believes in free trade (like Adam Smith, George Washington and virtually all of the Founders) and not protectionism (like Karl Marx, FDR and Trump) does not make McCain a "traitor", as you have described him. Quite the contrary.


Jordan

So so pilot,

Man of principle as a POW,

Rotten politician.
Rob,

I know exactly what a neocon is, and that troubles you. Your propaganda won't change a thing. And if you have to rely on wikipedia as a source, you're in a deep hole with no way out.
Originally Posted by SakoAV
BTW, just because McCain isn't a hero doesn't imply that he shouldn't be recognized for serving our country. For that and that alone, he deserves recognition.

Bob Dole lost use of his arm during WWII as a result of a battle wound. He has never sought recognition as hero.


I usually stay away from this subforum, but I'm going to comment here, due to the ignorance of SakoAV's statements.

You can say what you want about McCain, but as a US naval avaitor in combat he did his job, and then some. The Navy thought so too, and awarded him a Silver Star, 2 Legions of Merit, a Distinguished Flying Cross (for "heroically continuing to fly his severely damaged aircraft on his bomb run and accurately dropping his bomb load"), 3 Bronze Stars and a POW medal. Not a hero? I beg to differ. Staying behind so that other POWs could go home? I don't know if I could do that. McCain still can't comb his hair due to the damage the North Vietnamese did to his broken arms (which they failed to set and treat properly) while he was a prisoner.

People like McCain and the other Viet combat vets here on the Campfire make me proud to say I served in the US military and followed in their footsteps. My combat time in Iraq pales in comparison to what the Vietnam veterans experienced and accomplished. I would say (as anyone else here would, except you) that a Silver Star, Distinguished Flying Cross, 3 Bronze Stars, 2 Legions of Merit and over 5 years in captivity qualifies as a genuine All-American hero. I honor him and the others like him for their unflinching service, doing a job that no one who wasn't there can ever appreciate.

As far as Lieutenant Bob Dole is concerned, his injuries are a little more than a shot-up arm. He volunteered to lead an infantry patrol when he didn't have to (his platoon sergeant was going to do it), but Dole took the patrol and was stitched with MG42 fire while leading (you know, up front) the patrol. Sounds heroic to me, but what do I know? He doesn't talk about it because he's a typical WW II vet that did his job and moved on, after over 3 years in various VA hospitals, recovering after the War. I'd also call him a hero.

I'm curious about your own activity during the LA riots, where you ran into the fray...were you an LA cop? Inquiring minds want to know what you were doing that doesn't appear to be police-related. Sounds VERY interesting, and maybe just a LITTLE heroic, too. Please do tell us about your time in the south-end of LA.

You've mentioned "above and beyond" several times for what you think constitutes heroism. "Above and beyond" refers to actions that a Medal Of Honor awardee does; heroism comes in many forms and degrees. The US military has many awards for combat valor, not just the MOH. You'd know this if you'd spent 5 minutes in the military, but I guess you had other, more important things to do while your country was fighting a half-dozen or so different wars, justified or otherwise.
Bob
There are two types of men in this world: men who do what needs to be done and girly men. Girly men run from what needs to be done.

Girly men are eternally jealous of real men. They are identified by their repeated use of girly men Internet commando parodies because their lives are parodies, and decrying that real men who have done what they were too girly men to do are liars. They wish that they could be the ones actually doing what others wouldn't including them. But wishing is all they can do. When bad guys confront them, they piss their pants and pray for a real man to rescue them.

Girly men usually sleep on tall beds so they have a place to hide.

Girly men become pissed when they're in the company of real men because their wives compare their girly men husbands with real men.

How apropos that Middle_Fork Miner knows digging, and 12344mag has the tallest bed in Michigan. You guys dig. You'll always be girly men just as John McCain will always be a neocon sellout.







Originally Posted by RGK
Originally Posted by SakoAV
BTW, just because McCain isn't a hero doesn't imply that he shouldn't be recognized for serving our country. For that and that alone, he deserves recognition.

Bob Dole lost use of his arm during WWII as a result of a battle wound. He has never sought recognition as hero.


I usually stay away from this subforum, but I'm going to comment here, due to the ignorance of SakoAV's statements.

You can say what you want about McCain, but as a US naval avaitor in combat he did his job, and then some. The Navy thought so too, and awarded him a Silver Star, 2 Legions of Merit, a Distinguished Flying Cross (for "heroically continuing to fly his severely damaged aircraft on his bomb run and accurately dropping his bomb load"), 3 Bronze Stars and a POW medal. Not a hero? I beg to differ. Staying behind so that other POWs could go home? I don't know if I could do that. McCain still can't comb his hair due to the damage the North Vietnamese did to his broken arms (which they failed to set and treat properly) while he was a prisoner.

People like McCain and the other Viet combat vets here on the Campfire make me proud to say I served in the US military and followed in their footsteps. My combat time in Iraq pales in comparison to what the Vietnam veterans experienced and accomplished. I would say (as anyone else here would, except you) that a Silver Star, Distinguished Flying Cross, 3 Bronze Stars, 2 Legions of Merit and over 5 years in captivity qualifies as a genuine All-American hero. I honor him and the others like him for their unflinching service, doing a job that no one who wasn't there can ever appreciate.

As far as Lieutenant Bob Dole is concerned, his injuries are a little more than a shot-up arm. He volunteered to lead an infantry patrol when he didn't have to (his platoon sergeant was going to do it), but Dole took the patrol and was stitched with MG42 fire while leading (you know, up front) the patrol. Sounds heroic to me, but what do I know? He doesn't talk about it because he's a typical WW II vet that did his job and moved on, after over 3 years in various VA hospitals, recovering after the War. I'd also call him a hero.

I'm curious about your own activity during the LA riots, where you ran into the fray...were you an LA cop? Inquiring minds want to know what you were doing that doesn't appear to be police-related. Sounds VERY interesting, and maybe just a LITTLE heroic, too. Please do tell us about your time in the south-end of LA.

You've mentioned "above and beyond" several times for what you think constitutes heroism. "Above and beyond" refers to actions that a Medal Of Honor awardee does; heroism comes in many forms and degrees. The US military has many awards for heroism and combat valor, not just the MOH. You'd know this if you'd spent 5 minutes in the military, but I guess you had other, more important things to do while your country was fighting a half-dozen or so different wars, justified or otherwise.
Bob



Excellent post. +1000

SakoAV, the fact that you get your inspiration for manliness from a television set and a Hollywood actor is confirmation you can't tell fantasy from reality.
RGK,

Do you consider John McCain a hero? Scott O'Grady? What is your definition of a hero? How about a Korean War vet who never was close to combat, but had a support role? Would he be a hero?

Are you aware of why the North Vietnamese offered to release McCain? Do you know the real reason why McCain couldn't accept the offer? It had nothing to do with heroism and everything to do with politics.

Vincent Bugliosi was spot on when he wrote that Americans have a twisted ideal of heroism. Rock, movie, and sports stars are not heroes. People who do their jobs as contracted are not heroes. Heroes go above and beyond the call of duty. A man who witnesses a traffic accident with a woman trapped inside a burning car has no responsibility to help. He becomes a hero when he disregards his own safety to rescue the woman.

Bugliosi wrote that O'Grady was not a hero, yet he was accorded hero status because Americans have no clue of what heroism is. Bugliosi wrote that O'Grady was not a hero. He was doing his job as required. According to Bugliosi, the real heroes were the men who volunteered to risk their lives to rescue O'Grady, yet they never received recognition for their valor.

Do you think Bugliosi was right? Not that it matters, Bugliosi was thought to be the best lawyer in America. He was the only lawyer that I can recall who, in essence, called OJ's "Dream Team" dirtbags for making a mockery of American jurisprudence. Bugliosi offered Johnnie Cochrane a million bucks to do a televised debate about the OJ case. Cochrane wouldn't do it. Also, Gil Garcetti was going to contract with Bugliosi to try OJ again had there been a hung jury.

On my fireplace mantle I have a copy of Medal of Honor Portraits of Valor Beyond the Call of Duty. I'd suggest you buy a copy. I can guarantee you that it will become the one book that you'll never allow to get away from you.

Vincent Bugliosi was 100% right on the money. John McCain served our country, but he is no hero. To call him a hero is a claim of false valor and diminishes the status of authentic heroes.

BTW, outside of religion, the man I most admire in the entire history of the world is Audie Leon Murphy. With him as a metric, few measure up, which is why the Congressional Medal of Honor is the most prestigious award in the world. It's awarded to only a tiny few of our bravest soldiers. Should Super Bowl winners be accorded the same status as one who was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor?
Originally Posted by SakoAV
RGK,

Do you consider John McCain a hero? Scott O'Grady? What is your definition of a hero? How about a Korean War vet who never was close to combat, but had a support role? Would he be a hero?

Are you aware of why the North Vietnamese offered to release McCain? Do you know the real reason why McCain couldn't accept the offer? It had nothing to do with heroism and everything to do with politics.

Vincent Bugliosi was spot on when he wrote that Americans have a twisted ideal of heroism. Rock, movie, and sports stars are not heroes. People who do their jobs as contracted are not heroes. Heroes go above and beyond the call of duty. A man who witnesses a traffic accident with a woman trapped inside a burning car has no responsibility to help. He becomes a hero when he disregards his own safety to rescue the woman.

Bugliosi wrote that O'Grady was not a hero, yet he was accorded hero status because Americans have no clue of what heroism is. Bugliosi wrote that O'Grady was not a hero. He was doing his job as required. According to Bugliosi, the real heroes were the men who volunteered to risk their lives to rescue O'Grady, yet they never received recognition for their valor.

Do you think Bugliosi was right? Not that it matters, Bugliosi was thought to be the best lawyer in America. He was the only lawyer that I can recall who, in essence, called OJ's "Dream Team" dirtbags for making a mockery of American jurisprudence. Bugliosi offered Johnnie Cochrane a million bucks to do a televised debate about the OJ case. Cochrane wouldn't do it. Also, Gil Garcetti was going to contract with Bugliosi to try OJ again had there been a hung jury.

On my fireplace mantle I have a copy of Medal of Honor Portraits of Valor Beyond the Call of Duty. I'd suggest you buy a copy. I can guarantee you that it will become the one book that you'll never allow to get away from you.

Vincent Bugliosi was 100% right on the money. John McCain served our country, but he is no hero. To call him a hero is a claim of false valor and diminishes the status of authentic heroes.

BTW, outside of religion, the man I most admire in the entire history of the world is Audie Leon Murphy. With him as a metric, few measure up, which is why the Congressional Medal of Honor is the most prestigious award in the world. It's awarded to only a tiny few of our bravest soldiers. Should Super Bowl winners be accorded the same status as one who was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor?


Yup. I do consider John McCain a hero and (unlike you), a true warrior. Maybe not a great Senator, but a ballsy pilot that acquitted himself with honor, yes. McCain never called himself a hero; others (including the US Navy) did, decorating him for "heroism" more than once. No "false valor" there, but I guess you know all about that military valor stuff.

And yes, I do know why McCain stayed behind. "Political"? You got to be kidding. I guess he was plotting his future political career, even then, in the Hanoi Hilton.

I would also consider Scott O'Grady's actions heroic; he doesn't, I do. My opinion, unlike yours, is based on coming under fire as a US Soldier more than once. Hard to judge valor when you haven't been there, but maybe I'm wrong.

No one said anything about football players being "heroic". A little different; nothing in there about service, volunteering or the possibility of losing your life while under fire. Actually, even mentioning football in this context is stupid. Kind of like calling McCain a traitor.

Bugliosi's opinion is interesting, but irrelevant. He was a good lawyer, but like you, didn't see too much combat. O'Grady did a great job; the Air Force thought so.

Still waiting to hear about your non-heroism in the LA riots. Should be a good read.
Bob
Originally Posted by 12344mag
Who has the Mall Ninja thread to post?


I found it! Enjoy.

Mall Ninja!!
Originally Posted by Dave_Skinner
So so pilot,

Man of principle as a POW,

Rotten politician.


This.

McLame earned respect as a veteran, and cast it aside as a traitor in Congress. Had he died in 'Nam, he's at least be an honored name on the wall. Now? He and John Kerry are twins; McLame just gets somewhat of a pass from the Rs as Kerry does from the Ds. Piss on them both for what they have done to the US since returning "home".

SakoAV is Raisuli/Laguna (again). Treat accordingly.
Originally Posted by GunReader
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
...it is clear from the information collected that no American POWs were retained in captivity after Operation Homecoming.


That, right there, is bullschit.



Agreed, GR. Total bullschit. But, consider the source.
Originally Posted by 4ager
SakoAV is Raisuli/Laguna (again). Treat accordingly.


You really think that is Rasinhead?

Never seen Rasin head post as a mall ninja, I suppose could be a new era for him.
Yep.
By the way, he hurt me bad with the bed comment and I have started a gofundme page.........Just sayin'.

A new AR will make me strong again. wink
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Originally Posted by SakoAV
BarryC,

What bravery did McCain exhibit in Vietnam?


You are obviously naive or are being obtuse. First, take of and land of aircraft carriers with full combat loads in all weather and day & night. Second, go into what was the most formidable Integrated Air Defense System (IADS) in history layered in Surface To Air Missiles, heavy, medium and light AAA to cover all altitudes. Using pre-ordained "Route Packages" so the enemy knew your ingress and egress routes. Getting shot down and suffering severe injuries on ejection. Surviving years of torture at the hands of the gooks and REFUSING to go home early when given the chance. Recipient of the Silver Star. Does that work for you, ACE?


You mean I wasted my time handing him his ass not knowing it was that POS Raisuli? Oh well, but reposted, just to give him a waffle ass again.
I guess I need to contact Ingwe about membership in the Turd Clan.

SakoAV Pm'ed me last week informing me of what a great consevitive I was. I would guess that qualifies as "Pm'ed by a known troll" grin
Originally Posted by 12344mag
I guess I need to contact Ingwe about membership in the Turd Clan.

SakoAV Pm'ed me last week informing me of what a great consevitive I was. I would guess that qualifies as "Pm'ed by a known troll" grin


Nuke your computer from orbit. It's the only way to be sure it's purged of that POS. grin
Originally Posted by 4ager
Originally Posted by GunReader
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
...it is clear from the information collected that no American POWs were retained in captivity after Operation Homecoming.


That, right there, is bullschit.



Agreed, GR. Total bullschit. But, consider the source.


The record I posted is from this source: //www.miafacts.org/mccain.htm It is a long and detailed background account of the other side of this story.

Why and from where come the attacks on McCain?  The source of the attacks on McCain is, mainly, one  MIA "activist" who  accuses McCain of treasonous activities; his accusations are based on misquotes, misrepresentations, and Vietnamese wartime propaganda.  Yet, this story has gained the status of gospel among the McCain haters and the MIA "activists."  Read on for the rest of the story.
[...]
McCain's Position on US-Vietnam Relations and on the "Live-POW" Question
In the late 1980's, McCain took the position that the US should move toward normal diplomatic relations with Vietnam in return for their increased cooperation on the MIA issue. 

Sampley recognized -- as does the rest of the "activist" community -- that such talk in high places can be disastrous to their efforts to recruit and to raise money.  Their recruiting and fund raising pitch is the same:  US POWs are still being held, alive, in Vietnam and we need just a few more dollars from you to free them. 

As US researchers probe into Vietnamese wartime records, and as US search teams recover remains from crashsites and battlefield gravesites, the number of unaccounted for Americans goes down.  More importantly, it is clear from the information collected that no American POWs were retained in captivity after Operation Homecoming. 

The "activists" do not want this information to become known because they depend on folks falling prey to their claims and then donating money or other support -- such as the proliferation of "POW-MIA Remembrance Sites" on the WWW.

McCain refused to be drawn into the live POW battles and he continued to support normal US-Vietnam relations.  For a returned POW to take these two positions was more than the "activist" community could stand.


Originally Posted by SakoAV

How apropos that Middle_Fork Miner knows digging


You're a lot like your hero Trump...you don't know when to shut to fugg up & the schitt that comes out of your head is about as accurate as his...I don't know "digging"...I know dredging...about 25 years worth. I was also in the service....twice.
Middlefork_Miner,

I've met a lot of wannabes in life. You're a wannabe be, whether it's Caitlyn Jenner's boyfriend or Internet commando is yet to be determined. I do know that you're a liberal Democrat.
Originally Posted by simonkenton7
If you were handcuffed to the wall of a stench hole of a Vietnamese prison, and gooks were sticking pitchforks into your ass, and you were starving and being tortured daily, and the gooks told you to read this statement, you would probably read the statement, too.


Anybody who says otherwise without having to be subjected to that level of torture is an internet fool. My dad had 2 buddies that were captured by the NORKS and gave me brief descriptions of what they had to endure. They pretty much said they can break anyone if they really want to. The only way to beat them if they are determined is to die on them.
Originally Posted by simonkenton7
If you were handcuffed to the wall of a stench hole of a Vietnamese prison, and gooks were sticking pitchforks into your ass, and you were starving and being tortured daily, and the gooks told you to read this statement, you would probably read the statement, too.


This is nothing more that rationalizing bad behavior, protecting a traitor of America. The serious flaw of your reasoning is that McCain became a traitor to his country the second he decided to cooperate with the enemy. McCain was one of but a tiny few who rolled over on his country. The real heroes were the soldiers who refused to comply with the enemy's demands.
I can't believe you guys are still arguing with this troll!
Originally Posted by SakoAV
Middlefork_Miner,

I've met a lot of wannabes in life. You're a wannabe be, whether it's Caitlyn Jenner's boyfriend or Internet commando is yet to be determined. I do know that you're a liberal Democrat.


The only thing you "do know" or at least SHOULD KNOW is you're a fuggin idiot...I'm a wannabe??? Did you forget this little piece of self promotional boolschitt you posted?
Quote
It's a whole lot more wise to go on knowledge than supposition. I was never in the US military, one of my biggest regrets. However, while people were running from extreme danger (56 murdered), we drove right into the heart of it knowing that LA bangers wanted to kill us. I've never considered myself a hero, ever, even though some politician conferred some bullshit letter to me. I was merely doing my job. I volunteered to go while citizens were running away. That didn't make me a hero. Even the fact that bangers wanted to kill us didn't make me a hero. That was my job description.


Your self aggrandizing baloney makes it obvious you feel inadequate...but if it makes you feel better, go ahead and call me whatever you wish...I've been called worse by better...FOAD...
Originally Posted by SakoAV
Originally Posted by simonkenton7
If you were handcuffed to the wall of a stench hole of a Vietnamese prison, and gooks were sticking pitchforks into your ass, and you were starving and being tortured daily, and the gooks told you to read this statement, you would probably read the statement, too.


This is nothing more that rationalizing bad behavior, protecting a traitor of America. The serious flaw of your reasoning is that McCain became a traitor to his country the second he decided to cooperate with the enemy. McCain was one of but a tiny few who rolled over on his country. The real heroes were the soldiers who refused to comply with the enemy's demands.



Orson Swindle: "We were all tortured and we wrote confessions under the pressure of torture," said Swindle, a cellmate of McCain. "John McCain never collaborated with the enemy. He, like every one of us, submitted to severe torture. John McCain did nothing dishonorable. He was heroic."
“In his 'confession' McCain deliberately used misspellings, grammatical errors and Communist jargon to show he was writing under duress: I am a black criminal and I have performed the deeds of an air pirate. I almost died, and the Vietnamese people saved my life . . . "
get bent Raisuli. Should have know when you posted that LAUGHABLE notion about the War Of Independence and 1812 as the only two wars we should have waged. WHAT A MORON. And yes, what IS a NEOCON, and I see you never responded to my posts regarding McCain and his heroism in and outside his airplane. Now as a politician, he's a total fugg up, but speaking of fugups, you wrote the book!
It's amazing that even a small minority of Americans hold McCain in high regard when he is a traitor to America and Americans. Now we know that the 'fire has its share of liberals and neocons. We know who they are. They have ulterior motives that are more consistent with the uncharged felon's ideology than Thomas Paine's.

The question we have to ask is why any patriotic American would defend a traitorous, neocon sellout:

"Sen. John McCain has a personal stake in the ISIS and al-Qaeda members currently being targeted by Russian fighter planes. It was just two years ago that McCain found himself in the embarrassing position of having to explain his sleepover with a group of ISIS-affiliated terrorists in Syria. He has repeatedly called for more direct US military involvement to overthrow the Syrian government. Repeated stories of the failures of the US rebel training program have only steeled his resolve. Facts must not get in the way of McCain's regime change plans for Syria."

Source

Rob Jordan has a hidden agenda, an ulterior motive that is hostile to America and intended to destroy her. My guess is that he's a hasbara operative. He has tried to propagandized neocons as benign when they are issuing marching order to America's fifth column, most of whom are progeny of Stalin's Travelers.

Occidental America is disappearing, and propagandized Americans who ought not be allowed to vote are giving away the country bequeathed to us by our Founding Fathers. Our kids and their kids and further down the treacherous line will become of a lower caste in the country of Jefferson and Madison, and we are causal. The outcome will be dire or worse for our kids, and their kids, and their kids, until they will become subjugated by foreign operatives of the New World Order.

Employment for Americans is bleak and becoming worse. Immirgants are replacing Americans at jobs IN AMERICA. The hero of neocons, the one who was willing to condemn America while in captivity while American patriots would not, has sold out America and Americans to foreign interests. If we were a nation of laws as opposed to a nation of men that we've become, McCain would be in prison for treason. Yet a few Saul Alinsky posters on the 'fire vehemently defend a traitor who's agenda is to destroy the middle class preparatory to assimilating us into globalism where our standard of living will sink to that of Third World nations. And it was planned. And it is pushed upon us by neocons and their acolytes. And it will destroy the land of Jefferson and Lincoln. And we'll have only ourselves to blame. After all, when we seek an illusion of hero status in a traitor, our nation will become a house divided, and it will fall. And we are to blame.

Conservatives want us out of all entangling alliances and the UN, and we want to repeal the Federal Reserve Act. We want Hart-Celler gone. That's just the beginning of Making America Great Again.

"It is the duty of every patriot to protect his country from its government."
---Thomas Paine---

“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.”
---Thomas Jefferson---

“I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale.”
---Thomas Jefferson---

Never forget that the Federal Reserve is a PRIVATE banking outfit that has de facto enslaved us. And we've acquiesced to it. That's because Americans are extremely ripe for propaganda. Keep watching Fox News, AKA: the Neocon News Network. You'll get the straight scoop there, fair and balanced even, wink wink.

Originally Posted by jorgeI
get bent Raisuli. Should have know when you posted that LAUGHABLE notion about the War Of Independence and 1812 as the only two wars we should have waged. WHAT A MORON. And yes, what IS a NEOCON, and I see you never responded to my posts regarding McCain and his heroism in and outside his airplane. Now as a politician, he's a total fugg up, but speaking of fugups, you wrote the book!


Are you worried that President Trump is gonna repatriate you as he should with traitors?
OK Sucko, here's a question for YOU.

...have you ever posted here as "Raisuli", or "Laguna ?"

GTC
Funny how the worms have to work under several names. miles
FYI every AC [that's aircraft commander] I flew the friendly skies with were all steadfast in saving their crew at all cost.When you're briefed that surviving after getting bagged and captured your crew might be executed one by one in front of your eyes tends to change the whole picture.

We had weapons aboard to fight it out which we most likely would have tried if surviving the crash or thought we had a chance until a rescue attempt but were instructed to stand down if overwhelmed and attend to our wounded.

So read between the lines, make your own assumption and put yourself in a similar scenario.I support LEO's and the dangers they face but it's apples and oranges to what Mac or any other POW endures daily.
At what point do McCain acolytes stop being his defenders and become accessories to his treason?

"It looks like John McCain's remarks about Donald Trump supporters being crazies has backfired on him big time. Now McCain's life is being dissected piece by piece, beginning with his war record, outbursts of angry insanity, to his overall anti-American tenure as Senator of Arizona.

Seemingly, McCain has always been a traitor to his country, beginning with his stint in Viet Nam, where he was accused by many fellow soldiers of collaborating with the enemy while being held a POW in N. Viet Nam.

Colonel Ted Guy, McCain's commander during his time as a POW was preparing a case of treason against McCain shortly before President Richard M. Nixon signed a blanket pardon for all returning prisoners of war. Thus, McCain escaped all prospects of prosecution."

Source

And 'fire posters defend this treasonous coward? Shameful.


SuckoAV,....crickets ?
Quote
SakoAV is Raisuli/Laguna (again). Treat accordingly.


I reckon that's bang on,...a real squirrel, eh ?

GTC
Your source Sucks. Here is one of their other headlines:

AIRSTRIKES in Syria a FRAUD - OBAMA DROPPING SUPPLIES to ISIS
Originally Posted by crossfireoops
OK Sucko, here's a question for YOU.

...have you ever posted here as "Raisuli", or "Laguna ?"

GTC
Originally Posted by crossfireoops


SuckoAV,....crickets ?

Maybe Sucko isn't Raisule. maybe he is Stalin reborn. Can you tell who said this?
Quote
'There are no Soviet prisoners of war. The Soviet soldier fights on till death. If he chooses to become a prisoner, he is automatically excluded from the Russian community. We are not interested in a postal service only for Germans'."


Sounds like Sucko to me.
Originally Posted by SakoAV
At what point do McCain acolytes stop being his defenders and become accessories to his treason?


Seemingly, McCain has always been a traitor to his country, beginning with his stint in Viet Nam, where [b]he was accused by many fellow soldiers of collaborating with the enemy while being held a POW in N. Vietnam


The question you need to address was his collaboration filled with disinformation and did it save lives? My guess most likely some of each.
Stalin with a bit of Himmler thrown in.

Certainly "dictating" to this assembly here, no ?

GTC
Originally Posted by SakoAV
Originally Posted by jorgeI
get bent Raisuli. Should have known when you posted that LAUGHABLE notion about the War Of Independence and 1812 as the only two wars we should have waged. WHAT A MORON. And yes, what IS a NEOCON, and I see you never responded to my posts regarding McCain and his heroism in and outside his airplane. Now as a politician, he's a total fugg up, but speaking of fugups, you wrote the book!


Are you worried that President Trump is gonna repatriate you as he should with traitors?


Not as long as I get to take my retirement check with me.

I think we have someone that just dethroned TRH for the most ridiculous post of the last five years...AT LEAST. Nice dodge (again) about my OP. You're not only stupid, but just like your democrat buddies, a liar as well.
It is a close race...
I guess that's what happens when you mix up facts with opinions.

I don't know why Sucko has to belittle the actual sacrifices McCain made. McCain's voting record is enough to despise him.
Originally Posted by FlyboyFlem
FYI every AC [that's aircraft commander] I flew the friendly skies with were all steadfast in saving their crew at all cost.When you're briefed that surviving after getting bagged and captured your crew might be executed one by one in front of your eyes tends to change the whole picture.

We had weapons aboard to fight it out which we most likely would have tried if surviving the crash or thought we had a chance until a rescue attempt but were instructed to stand down if overwhelmed and attend to our wounded.

So read between the lines, make your own assumption and put yourself in a similar scenario.I support LEO's and the dangers they face but it's apples and oranges to what Mac or any other POW endures daily.


Hi Flyboy,

Parallels do exist between military and civilian law enforcement. In America, maybe .1% of people are authentic hardcore killers who'd think nothing of killing cops. In fact, their status among their dirtbag homies increases if they have killed a cop. Hence, a cop has to make a quick evaluation of whom he's interacting. Prison gangs such as Aryan Brotherhood and Black Guerilla Family will kill cops if they are able. 90% of Americans will comply with law, and most of those 90% are cordial. Civilian law enforcement endeavors to avoid all fatalities, cops and bad guys. Civil law enforcement seeks assurances of cops going home to their families and bad guys going to jail.

Our soldiers are placed in harm's way where opposite statistics hold true. The enemy wants to kill our soldiers.

Here's what pisses me off: rules of engagement. The only rule that ought to guide our soldiers is survival. While I do not want to see civilians killed, under no circumstances should our soldiers' lives be placed in needless jeopardy because he can't get a visual on a weapon hidden under an enemy's clothing. Kill the effer before he gets a chance to kill one of our soldiers. And yes, I'm good with honest mistakes of judgment where the lives of our soldiers hang in balance. That's a sad part of war.

Soldiers' primary job is to win while sustaining as few casualties as possible. We have the best trained military in the world. I'm sure that limeys will disagree. I'm good there. If our soldiers confront enemies, they should not have to seek permission to engage. That's why they're American soldiers. We trust their judgment. If in their training, knowledge, and expertise they can articulate why a person they have killed was dangerous, they're good to go. The presumption must always be that our soldiers acted in good faith.

Eff the Geneva Convention, the UN, and every entangling alliance that places restrictions upon our soldiers. While I, as I've previously written, don't want to see civilians killed, I will accept casualties of war in preference to saving our soldiers' lives.

We need to stop all involvement in foreign wars that are of no threat to the United States. Our Founding Fathers knew that intervention in wars that are none of our damned business would lead to our enslavement and eventual demise of the country they founded. Our military must protect the USA and only the USA. And should a country become a credible threat, we will eliminate that threat to the USA as quickly and with as few American casualties as possible.

The only rule of engagement we ought to abide is win with few or no casualties. How we win is up to us, not another country. We're a sovereign nation. We'll do what's right for our country and our soldiers.



You're just butthurt that your boy Trump endorsed McCain...
Originally Posted by Middlefork_Miner
You're just butthurt that your boy Trump endorsed McCain...


smile
Quote:
"It's a whole lot more wise to go on knowledge than supposition. I was never in the US military, one of my biggest regrets. However, while people were running from extreme danger (56 murdered), we drove right into the heart of it knowing that LA bangers wanted to kill us. I've never considered myself a hero, ever, even though some politician conferred some bullshit letter to me. I was merely doing my job. I volunteered to go while citizens were running away. That didn't make me a hero. Even the fact that bangers wanted to kill us didn't make me a hero. That was my job description." (SakoAV)


Still waiting for an explanation on this one...guess I might be waiting awhile. Love to hear about why the "LA bangers" wanted him dead so badly. As far as his "biggest regret", well, after reading his posts, I can see that he made a wise choice in not pursuing a military career. He wouldn't have lasted a week in an Army or Marine infantry platoon. SakoAV is truly one silly dude.
Bob
James Stockdale, the ostensible leader of the American POW's in North Vietnam (highest ranking prisoner), organized a resistance movement and code-of-conduct for the prisoners. But, he told all they WILL be broken by the torture and mistreatment and their prime responsibility was to survive, not die resisting. Whatever McCain said was certainly a result of this treatment. I may not agree with McCain on all issues, but he is a good man and a patriot.
Originally Posted by SakoAV
miles,

On the very first day at my job, I had to sign a non-negotiation agreement. Succinctly, it meant that were I taken hostage, my boss would not negotiate my release. His policy was to not negotiate with bad guys.

Most cops I knew carried second guns. I never did. If a bad guy got me in a compromising position, he was not getting my gun. It was going to end right there. I would've relied upon my training. Hopefully I'd of survived. But if not, he was dying with me.

Cops learn from dissecting cop murders. Cops learned from the Onion Field that if you surrender your gun, you're surrendering your life.

I've had to attend continuing education courses every two years. A segment of one was resolving my death. Cop funerals aren't for dead cops. They're for living cops. They're displays to fellow cops that if the die in the line of duty, there families will be taken care of with no worries. The intent is to placate cops' fears for their families so that they will be willing to go into harm's way.

After I signed that non-negotiation agreement and knowing the tragic outcome of the Onion Field, I had resolved to die right there taking the bad guy with me before I gave up my gun and allowing him to do what he wanted with me. I was not going to surrender that power to a dirtbag. That's why I never carried a second gun. I knew I was never going to need it. If I were going to die, it would be while shooting my duty gun.

miles, hopefully, you've never had to make such a decision, so you might not be able to grasp what I've written. However, other cops know the validity of what I've written.



Gecko45??

Next thing you know, he's going to be looking for some ceramic plates to cover head shots.



Clyde
Originally Posted by SakoAV
Originally Posted by jorgeI
get bent Raisuli. Should have know when you posted that LAUGHABLE notion about the War Of Independence and 1812 as the only two wars we should have waged. WHAT A MORON. And yes, what IS a NEOCON, and I see you never responded to my posts regarding McCain and his heroism in and outside his airplane. Now as a politician, he's a total fugg up, but speaking of fugups, you wrote the book!


Are you worried that President Trump is gonna repatriate you as he should with traitors?


And now your calling Jorge a traitor?

Your about the most misinformed internet jackass I've seen type here yet.

BTW I'm typing this from atop my 6ft bed and I can see exactly what is going on here.
Originally Posted by Middlefork_Miner
You're just butthurt that your boy Trump endorsed McCain...




He's just pissed about that......He's Butthurt because he's been having buttsex.....
If he isn't Leo and he isn't Military I assume he's private security and by the way he talks he's most likely Gecko45 or Specops, Either way he's funny as hell.

If you haven't read the following link do so you'll piss yourself!

The Legend Of The Mall Ninja
Originally Posted by RockyRaab
gonehuntin, I don't use the obscenities that your posts require.


Sorry for your indigestion. Please critique or refute the following. Different issue, but involves John McCain. I condemn him for his efforts to cover up the POW's left behind.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/mccain-and-the-pow-cover-up/

McCain and the POW Cover-Up

By Sydney Schanberg • July 1, 2010

(...first appeared on the website of The Nation Institute in September 18, 2008. The article was later replayed by The American Conservative in its July 2010 edition, together with critical commentary.)

John McCain, who has risen to political prominence on his image as a Vietnam POW war hero, has, inexplicably, worked very hard to hide from the public stunning information about American prisoners in Vietnam who, unlike him, didn’t return home. Throughout his Senate career, McCain has quietly sponsored and pushed into federal law a set of prohibitions that keep the most revealing information about these men buried as classified documents. Thus the war hero who people would logically imagine as a determined crusader for the interests of POWs and their families became instead the strange champion of hiding the evidence and closing the books.

Almost as striking is the manner in which the mainstream press has shied from reporting the POW story and McCain’s role in it, even as the Republican Party has made McCain’s military service the focus of his presidential campaign. Reporters who had covered the Vietnam War turned their heads and walked in other directions. McCain doesn’t talk about the missing men, and the press never asks him about them.

The sum of the secrets McCain has sought to hide is not small. There exists a telling mass of official documents, radio intercepts, witness depositions, satellite photos of rescue symbols that pilots were trained to use, electronic messages from the ground containing the individual code numbers given to airmen, a rescue mission by a special forces unit that was aborted twice by Washington—and even sworn testimony by two Defense secretaries that “men were left behind.” This imposing body of evidence suggests that a large number—the documents indicate probably hundreds—of the U.S. prisoners held by Vietnam were not returned when the peace treaty was signed in January 1973 and Hanoi released 591 men, among them Navy combat pilot John S. McCain.

Mass of Evidence

The Pentagon had been withholding significant information from POW families for years. What’s more, the Pentagon’s POW/MIA operation had been publicly shamed by internal whistleblowers and POW families for holding back documents as part of a policy of “debunking” POW intelligence even when the information was obviously credible.

The pressure from the families and Vietnam veterans finally forced the creation, in late 1991, of a Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs. The chairman was John Kerry. McCain, as a former POW, was its most pivotal member. In the end, the committee became part of the debunking machine.

One of the sharpest critics of the Pentagon’s performance was an insider, Air Force Lt. Gen. Eugene Tighe, who headed the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) during the 1970s. He openly challenged the Pentagon’s position that no live prisoners existed, saying that the evidence proved otherwise. McCain was a bitter opponent of Tighe, who was eventually pushed into retirement.

Included in the evidence that McCain and his government allies suppressed or sought to discredit is a transcript of a senior North Vietnamese general’s briefing of the Hanoi politburo, discovered in Soviet archives by an American scholar in 1993. The briefing took place only four months before the 1973 peace accords. The general, Tran Van Quang, told the politburo members that Hanoi was holding 1,205 American prisoners but would keep many of them at war’s end as leverage to ensure getting war reparations from Washington.

Throughout the Paris negotiations, the North Vietnamese tied the prisoner issue tightly to the issue of reparations. They were adamant in refusing to deal with them separately. Finally, in a Feb. 2, 1973 formal letter to Hanoi’s premier, Pham Van Dong, Nixon pledged $3.25 billion in “postwar reconstruction” aid “without any political conditions.” But he also attached to the letter a codicil that said the aid would be implemented by each party “in accordance with its own constitutional provisions.” That meant Congress would have to approve the appropriation, and Nixon and Kissinger knew well that Congress was in no mood to do so. The North Vietnamese, whether or not they immediately understood the double-talk in the letter, remained skeptical about the reparations promise being honored—and it never was. Hanoi thus appears to have held back prisoners—just as it had done when the French were defeated at Dien Bien Phu in 1954 and withdrew their forces from Vietnam. In that case, France paid ransoms for prisoners and brought them home.

In a private briefing in 1992, high-level CIA officials told me that as the years passed and the ransom never came, it became more and more difficult for either government to admit that it knew from the start about the unacknowledged prisoners. Those prisoners had not only become useless as bargaining chips but also posed a risk to Hanoi’s desire to be accepted into the international community. The CIA officials said their intelligence indicated strongly that the remaining men—those who had not died from illness or hard labor or torture—were eventually executed.

My own research, detailed below, has convinced me that it is not likely that more than a few—if any—are alive in captivity today. (That CIA briefing at the Agency’s Langley, Virginia, headquarters was conducted “off the record,” but because the evidence from my own reporting since then has brought me to the same conclusion, I felt there was no longer any point in not writing about the meeting.)

For many reasons, including the absence of a political constituency for the missing men other than their families and some veterans’ groups, very few Americans are aware of the POW story and of McCain’s role in keeping it out of public view and denying the existence of abandoned POWs. That is because McCain has hardly been alone in his campaign to hide the scandal.

The Arizona senator, now the Republican candidate for president, has actually been following the lead of every White House since Richard Nixon’s, and thus of every CIA director, Pentagon chief, and national security adviser, not to mention Dick Cheney, who was George H.W. Bush’s Defense secretary. Their biggest accomplice has been an indolent press, particularly in Washington.

McCain’s Role

An early and critical McCain secrecy move involved 1990 legislation that started in the House of Representatives. A brief and simple document, it was called “the Truth Bill” and would have compelled complete transparency about prisoners and missing men. Its core sentence reads: “[The] head of each department or agency which holds or receives any records and information, including live-sighting reports, which have been correlated or possibly correlated to United States personnel listed as prisoner of war or missing in action from World War II, the Korean conflict and the Vietnam conflict, shall make available to the public all such records held or received by that department or agency.”

Bitterly opposed by the Pentagon (and thus McCain), the bill went nowhere. Reintroduced the following year, it again disappeared. But a few months later, a new measure, known as “the McCain Bill,” suddenly appeared. By creating a bureaucratic maze from which only a fraction of the documents could emerge—only records that revealed no POW secrets—it turned the Truth Bill on its head. The McCain bill became law in 1991 and remains so today. So crushing to transparency are its provisions that it actually spells out for the Pentagon and other agencies several rationales, scenarios, and justifications for not releasing any information at all—even about prisoners discovered alive in captivity. Later that year, the Senate Select Committee was created, where Kerry and McCain ultimately worked together to bury evidence.

McCain was also instrumental in amending the Missing Service Personnel Act, which had been strengthened in 1995 by POW advocates to include criminal penalties, saying, “Any government official who knowingly and willfully withholds from the file of a missing person any information relating to the disappearance or whereabouts and status of a missing person shall be fined as provided in Title 18 or imprisoned not more than one year or both.” A year later, in a closed House-Senate conference on an unrelated military bill, McCain, at the behest of the Pentagon, attached a crippling amendment to the act, stripping out its only enforcement teeth, the criminal penalties, and reducing the obligations of commanders in the field to speedily search for missing men and to report the incidents to the Pentagon.

About the relaxation of POW/MIA obligations on commanders in the field, a public McCain memo said, “This transfers the bureaucracy involved out of the [battle] field to Washington.” He wrote that the original legislation, if left intact, “would accomplish nothing but create new jobs for lawyers and turn military commanders into clerks.”

McCain argued that keeping the criminal penalties would have made it impossible for the Pentagon to find staffers willing to work on POW/MIA matters. That’s an odd argument to make. Were staffers only “willing to work” if they were allowed to conceal POW records? By eviscerating the law, McCain gave his stamp of approval to the government policy of debunking the existence of live POWs.

McCain has insisted again and again that all the evidence—documents, witnesses, satellite photos, two Pentagon chiefs’ sworn testimony, aborted rescue missions, ransom offers apparently scorned—has been woven together by unscrupulous deceivers to create an insidious and unpatriotic myth. He calls it the “bizarre rantings of the MIA hobbyists.” He has regularly vilified those who keep trying to pry out classified documents as “hoaxers,” “charlatans,” “conspiracy theorists,” and “dime-store Rambos.”

Some of McCain’s fellow captives at Hoa Lo prison in Hanoi didn’t share his views about prisoners left behind. Before he died of leukemia in 1999, retired Col. Ted Guy, a highly admired POW and one of the most dogged resisters in the camps, wrote an angry open letter to the senator in an MIA newsletter—a response to McCain’s stream of insults hurled at MIA activists. Guy wrote, “John, does this [the insults] include Senator Bob Smith [a New Hampshire Republican and activist on POW issues] and other concerned elected officials? Does this include the families of the missing where there is overwhelming evidence that their loved ones were ‘last known alive’? Does this include some of your fellow POWs?”

It’s not clear whether the taped confession McCain gave to his captors to avoid further torture has played a role in his postwar behavior in the Senate. That confession was played endlessly over the prison loudspeaker system at Hoa Lo—to try to break down other prisoners—and was broadcast over Hanoi’s state radio. Reportedly, he confessed to being a war criminal who had bombed civilian targets. The Pentagon has a copy of the confession but will not release it. Also, no outsider I know of has ever seen a non-redacted copy of the debriefing of McCain when he returned from captivity, which is classified but could be made public by McCain.

All humans have breaking points. Many men undergoing torture give confessions, often telling huge lies so their fakery will be understood by their comrades and their country. Few will fault them. But it was McCain who apparently felt he had disgraced himself and his military family. His father, John S. McCain II, was a highly regarded rear admiral then serving as commander of all U.S. forces in the Pacific. His grandfather was also a rear admiral.

In his bestselling 1999 autobiography, Faith of My Fathers, McCain says he felt bad throughout his captivity because he knew he was being treated more leniently than his fellow POWs, owing to his high-ranking father and thus his propaganda value. Other prisoners at Hoa Lo say his captors considered him a prize catch and called him the “Crown Prince,” something McCain acknowledges in the book.

Also in this memoir, McCain expresses guilt at having broken under torture and given the confession. “I felt faithless and couldn’t control my despair,” he writes, revealing that he made two “feeble” attempts at suicide. (In later years, he said he tried to hang himself with his shirt and guards intervened.) Tellingly, he says he lived in “dread” that his father would find out about the confession. “I still wince,” he writes, “when I recall wondering if my father had heard of my disgrace.”

He says that when he returned home, he told his father about the confession, but “never discussed it at length”—and the admiral, who died in 1981, didn’t indicate he had heard anything about it before. But he had. In the 1999 memoir, the senator writes, “I only recently learned that the tape … had been broadcast outside the prison and had come to the attention of my father.”

Is McCain haunted by these memories? Does he suppress POW information because its surfacing would rekindle his feelings of shame? On this subject, all I have are questions.

Many stories have been written about McCain’s explosive temper, so volcanic that colleagues are loath to speak openly about it. One veteran congressman who has observed him over the years asked for confidentiality and made this brief comment: “This is a man not at peace with himself.”

He was certainly far from calm on the Senate POW committee. He browbeat expert witnesses who came with information about unreturned POWs. Family members who have personally faced McCain and pressed him to end the secrecy also have been treated to his legendary temper. He has screamed at them, insulted them, brought women to tears. Mostly his responses to them have been versions of: How dare you question my patriotism? In 1996, he roughly pushed aside a group of POW family members who had waited outside a hearing room to appeal to him, including a mother in a wheelchair.

But even without answers to what may be hidden in the recesses of McCain’s mind, one thing about the POW story is clear: if American prisoners were dishonored by being written off and left to die, that’s something the American public ought to know about.

10 Key Pieces of Evidence That Men Were Left Behind

1. In Paris, where the Vietnam peace treaty was negotiated, the United States asked Hanoi for the list of American prisoners to be returned, fearing that Hanoi would hold some prisoners back. The North Vietnamese refused, saying they would produce the list only after the treaty was signed. Nixon agreed with Kissinger that they had no leverage left, and Kissinger signed the accord on Jan. 27, 1973 without the prisoner list. When Hanoi produced its list of 591 prisoners the next day, U.S. intelligence agencies expressed shock at the low number. Their number was hundreds higher. The New York Times published a long, page-one story on Feb. 2, 1973 about the discrepancy, especially raising questions about the number of prisoners held in Laos, only nine of whom were being returned. The headline read, in part, “Laos POW List Shows 9 from U.S.—Document Disappointing to Washington as 311 Were Believed Missing.” And the story, by John Finney, said that other Washington officials “believe the number of prisoners [in Laos] is probably substantially higher.” The paper never followed up with any serious investigative reporting—nor did any other mainstream news organization.

2. Two Defense secretaries who served during the Vietnam War testified to the Senate POW committee in September 1992 that prisoners were not returned. James Schlesinger and Melvin Laird, both speaking at a public session and under oath, said they based their conclusions on strong intelligence data—letters, eyewitness reports, even direct radio contacts. Under questioning, Schlesinger chose his words carefully, understanding clearly the volatility of the issue: “I think that as of now that I can come to no other conclusion … some were left behind.” This ran counter to what President Nixon told the public in a nationally televised speech on March 29, 1973, when the repatriation of the 591 was in motion: “Tonight,” Nixon said, “the day we have all worked and prayed for has finally come. For the first time in 12 years, no American military forces are in Vietnam. All our American POWs are on their way home.” Documents unearthed since then show that aides had already briefed Nixon about the contrary evidence.

Schlesinger was asked by the Senate committee for his explanation of why President Nixon would have made such a statement when he knew Hanoi was still holding prisoners. He replied, “One must assume that we had concluded that the bargaining position of the United States … was quite weak. We were anxious to get our troops out and we were not going to roil the waters…” This testimony struck me as a bombshell. The New York Times appropriately reported it on page one but again there was no sustained follow-up by the Times or any other major paper or national news outlet.

3. Over the years, the DIA received more than 1,600 first-hand sightings of live American prisoners and nearly 14,000 second-hand reports. Many witnesses interrogated by CIA or Pentagon intelligence agents were deemed “credible” in the agents’ reports. Some of the witnesses were given lie-detector tests and passed. Sources provided me with copies of these witness reports, which are impressive in their detail. A lot of the sightings described a secondary tier of prison camps many miles from Hanoi. Yet the DIA, after reviewing all these reports, concluded that they “do not constitute evidence” that men were alive.

4. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, listening stations picked up messages in which Laotian military personnel spoke about moving American prisoners from one labor camp to another. These listening posts were manned by Thai communications officers trained by the National Security Agency (NSA), which monitors signals worldwide. The NSA teams had moved out after the fall of Saigon in 1975 and passed the job to the Thai allies. But when the Thais turned these messages over to Washington, the intelligence community ruled that since the intercepts were made by a “third party”—namely Thailand—they could not be regarded as authentic. That’s some Catch-22: the U.S. trained a third party to take over its role in monitoring signals about POWs, but because that third party did the monitoring, the messages weren’t valid.

Here, from CIA files, is an example that clearly exposes the farce. On Dec. 27, 1980, a Thai military signal team picked up a message saying that prisoners were being moved out of Attopeu (in southern Laos) by aircraft “at 1230 hours.” Three days later a message was sent from the CIA station in Bangkok to the CIA director’s office in Langley. It read, in part: “The prisoners … are now in the valley in permanent location (a prison camp at Nhommarath in Central Laos). They were transferred from Attopeu to work in various places … POWs were formerly kept in caves and are very thin, dark and starving.” Apparently the prisoners were real. But the transmission was declared “invalid” by Washington because the information came from a “third party” and thus could not be deemed credible.

5. A series of what appeared to be distress signals from Vietnam and Laos were captured by the government’s satellite system in the late 1980s and early ’90s. (Before that period, no search for such signals had been put in place.) Not a single one of these markings was ever deemed credible. To the layman’s eye, the satellite photos, some of which I’ve seen, show markings on the ground that are identical to the signals that American pilots had been specifically trained to use in their survival courses—such as certain letters, like X or K, drawn in a special way. Other markings were the secret four-digit authenticator numbers given to individual pilots. But time and again, the Pentagon, backed by the CIA, insisted that humans had not made these markings. What were they, then? “Shadows and vegetation,” the government said, insisting that the markings were merely normal topographical contours like saw-grass or rice-paddy divider walls. It was the automatic response—shadows and vegetation. On one occasion, a Pentagon photo expert refused to go along. It was a missing man’s name gouged into a field, he said, not trampled grass or paddy berms. His bosses responded by bringing in an outside contractor who found instead, yes, shadows and vegetation. This refrain led Bob Taylor, a highly regarded investigator on the Senate committee staff who had examined the photographic evidence, to comment to me: “If grass can spell out people’s names and secret digit codes, then I have a newfound respect for grass.”

6. On Nov. 11, 1992, Dolores Alfond, the sister of missing airman Capt. Victor Apodaca and chair of the National Alliance of Families, an organization of relatives of POW/MIAs, testified at one of the Senate committee’s public hearings. She asked for information about data the government had gathered from electronic devices used in a classified program known as PAVE SPIKE.

The devices were motion sensors, dropped by air, designed to pick up enemy troop movements. Shaped on one end like a spike with an electronic pod and antenna on top, they were designed to stick in the ground as they fell. Air Force planes would drop them along the Ho Chi Minh trail and other supply routes. The devices, though primarily sensors, also had rescue capabilities. Someone on the ground—a downed airman or a prisoner on a labor gang —could manually enter data into the sensor. All data were regularly collected electronically by U.S. planes flying overhead. Alfond stated, without any challenge or contradiction by the committee, that in 1974, a year after the supposedly complete return of prisoners, the gathered data showed that a person or people had manually entered into the sensors—as U.S. pilots had been trained to do—no less than 20 authenticator numbers that corresponded exactly to the classified authenticator numbers of 20 U.S. POWs who were lost in Laos. Alfond added, according to the transcript, “This PAVE SPIKE intelligence is seamless, but the committee has not discussed it or released what it knows about PAVE SPIKE.”

McCain attended that committee hearing specifically to confront Alfond because of her criticism of the panel’s work. He bellowed and berated her for quite a while. His face turning anger-pink, he accused her of “denigrating” his “patriotism.” The bullying had its effect—she began to cry.

After a pause Alfond recovered and tried to respond to his scorching tirade, but McCain simply turned away and stormed out of the room. The PAVE SPIKE file has never been declassified. We still don’t know anything about those 20 POWs.

7. As previously mentioned, in April 1993 in a Moscow archive, a researcher from Harvard, Stephen Morris, unearthed and made public the transcript of a briefing that General Tran Van Quang gave to the Hanoi politburo four months before the signing of the Paris peace accords in 1973.

In the transcript, General Quang told the Hanoi politburo that 1,205 U.S. prisoners were being held. Quang said that many of the prisoners would be held back from Washington after the accords as bargaining chips for war reparations. General Quang’s report added: “This is a big number. Officially, until now, we published a list of only 368 prisoners of war. The rest we have not revealed. The government of the USA knows this well, but it does not know the exact number … and can only make guesses based on its losses. That is why we are keeping the number of prisoners of war secret, in accordance with the politburo’s instructions.” The report then went on to explain in clear and specific language that a large number would be kept back to ensure reparations.

The reaction to the document was immediate. After two decades of denying it had kept any prisoners, Hanoi responded to the revelation by calling the transcript a fabrication.

Similarly, Washington—which had over the same two decades refused to recant Nixon’s declaration that all the prisoners had been returned—also shifted into denial mode. The Pentagon issued a statement saying the document “is replete with errors, omissions and propaganda that seriously damage its credibility,” and that the numbers were “inconsistent with our own accounting.”

Neither American nor Vietnamese officials offered any rationale for who would plant a forged document in the Soviet archives and why they would do so. Certainly neither Washington nor Moscow—closely allied with Hanoi—would have any motive, since the contents were embarrassing to all parties, and since both the United States and Vietnam had consistently denied the existence of unreturned prisoners. The Russian archivists simply said the document was “authentic.”

8. In his 2002 book, Inside Delta Force, retired Command Sgt. Maj. Eric Haney described how in 1981 his special forces unit, after rigorous training for a POW rescue mission, had the mission suddenly aborted, revived a year later, and again abruptly aborted. Haney writes that this abandonment of captured soldiers ate at him for years and left him disillusioned about his government’s vows to leave no men behind. “Years later, I spoke at length with a former highly placed member of the North Vietnamese diplomatic corps, and this person asked me point-blank: ‘Why did the Americans never attempt to recover their remaining POWs after the conclusion of the war?’” Haney writes. He continued, saying that he came to believe senior government officials had called off those missions in 1981 and 1982. (His account is on pages 314 to 321 of my paperback copy of the book.)

9. There is also evidence that in the first months of Ronald Reagan’s presidency in 1981, the White House received a ransom proposal for a number of POWs being held by Hanoi in Indochina. The offer, which was passed to Washington from an official of a third country, was apparently discussed at a meeting in the Roosevelt Room attended by Reagan, Vice President Bush, CIA director William Casey, and National Security Adviser Richard Allen. Allen confirmed the offer in sworn testimony to the Senate POW committee on June 23, 1992.

Allen was allowed to testify behind closed doors and no information was released. But a San Diego Union-Tribune reporter, Robert Caldwell, obtained the portion relating to the ransom offer and reported on it. The ransom request was for $4 billion, Allen testified. He said he told Reagan that “it would be worth the president’s going along and let’s have the negotiation.” When his testimony appeared in the Union-Tribune, Allen quickly wrote a letter to the panel, this time not under oath, recanting the ransom story and claiming his memory had played tricks on him. His new version was that some POW activists had asked him about such an offer in a meeting that took place in 1986, when he was no longer in government. “It appears,” he said in the letter, “that there never was a 1981 meeting about the return of POW/MIAs for $4 billion.”

But the episode didn’t end there. A Treasury agent on Secret Service duty in the White House, John Syphrit, came forward to say he had overheard part of the ransom conversation in the Roosevelt Room in 1981, when the offer was discussed by Reagan, Bush, Casey, Allen, and other cabinet officials.

Syphrit, a veteran of the Vietnam War, told the committee he was willing to testify, but they would have to subpoena him. Treasury opposed his appearance, arguing that voluntary testimony would violate the trust between the Secret Service and those it protects. It was clear that coming in on his own could cost Syphrit his career. The committee voted 7 to 4 not to subpoena him.

In the committee’s final report, dated Jan. 13, 1993 (on page 284), the panel not only chastised Syphrit for his failure to testify without a subpoena (“The committee regrets that the Secret Service agent was unwilling …”), but noted that since Allen had recanted his testimony about the Roosevelt Room briefing, Syphrit’s testimony would have been “at best, uncorroborated by the testimony of any other witness.” The committee omitted any mention that it had made a decision not to ask the other two surviving witnesses, Bush and Reagan, to give testimony under oath. (Casey had died.)

10. In 1990, Col. Millard Peck, a decorated infantry veteran of Vietnam then working at the DIA as chief of the Asia Division for Current Intelligence, asked for the job of chief of the DIA’s Special Office for Prisoners of War and Missing in Action. His reason for seeking the transfer, which was not a promotion, was that he had heard from officials throughout the Pentagon that the POW/MIA office had been turned into a waste-disposal unit for getting rid of unwanted evidence about live prisoners—a “black hole,” these officials called it.

Peck explained all this in his telling resignation letter of Feb. 12, 1991, eight months after he had taken the job. He said he viewed it as “sort of a holy crusade” to restore the integrity of the office but was defeated by the Pentagon machine. The four-page, single-spaced letter was scathing, describing the putative search for missing men as “a cover-up.”

Peck charged that, at its top echelons, the Pentagon had embraced a “mind-set to debunk” all evidence of prisoners left behind. “That national leaders continue to address the prisoner of war and missing in action issue as the ‘highest national priority,’ is a travesty,” he wrote. “The entire charade does not appear to be an honest effort, and may never have been. … Practically all analysis is directed to finding fault with the source. Rarely has there been any effective, active follow through on any of the sightings, nor is there a responsive ‘action arm’ to routinely and aggressively pursue leads.”

“I became painfully aware,” his letter continued, “that I was not really in charge of my own office, but was merely a figurehead or whipping boy for a larger and totally Machiavellian group of players outside of DIA … I feel strongly that this issue is being manipulated and controlled at a higher level, not with the goal of resolving it, but more to obfuscate the question of live prisoners and give the illusion of progress through hyperactivity.” He named no names but said these players are “unscrupulous people in the Government or associated with the Government” who “have maintained their distance and remained hidden in the shadows, while using the [POW] Office as a ‘toxic waste dump’ to bury the whole ‘mess’ out of sight.” Peck added that “military officers … who in some manner have ‘rocked the boat’ [have] quickly come to grief.”

Peck concluded, “From what I have witnessed, it appears that any soldier left in Vietnam, even inadvertently, was, in fact, abandoned years ago, and that the farce that is being played is no more than political legerdemain done with ‘smoke and mirrors’ to stall the issue until it dies a natural death.”

The disillusioned colonel not only resigned but asked to be retired immediately from active military service. The press never followed up.

My Pursuit of the Story

I covered the war in Cambodia and Vietnam, but came to the POW information only slowly afterward, when military officers I knew from that conflict began coming to me with maps and POW sightings and depositions by Vietnamese witnesses.

I was then city editor of the New York Times, no longer involved in foreign or national stories, so I took the data to the appropriate desks and suggested it was material worth pursuing. There were no takers. Some years later, in 1991, when I was an op-ed columnist at Newsday, the aforementioned special Senate committee was formed to probe the POW issue. I saw this as an opening and immersed myself in the reporting.

At Newsday, I wrote 36 columns over a two-year period, as well as a four-part series on a trip I took to North Vietnam to report on what happened to one missing pilot who was shot down over the Ho Chi Minh trail and captured when he parachuted down. After Newsday, I wrote thousands more words on the subject for other outlets. Some of the pieces were about McCain’s key role.

Though I wrote on many subjects for Life, Vanity Fair, and Washington Monthly, my POW articles appeared in Penthouse, the Village Voice, and APBnews.com. Mainstream publications just weren’t interested. Their disinterest was part of what motivated me, and I became one of a very short list of journalists who considered the story important.

Serving in the Army in Germany during the Cold War and witnessing combat firsthand as a reporter in India and Indochina led me to have great respect for those who fight for their country. To my mind, we dishonored U.S. troops when our government failed to bring them home from Vietnam after the 591 others were released—and then claimed they didn’t exist. And politicians dishonor themselves when they pay lip service to the bravery and sacrifice of soldiers only to leave untold numbers behind, rationalizing to themselves that it’s merely one of the unfortunate costs of war.

John McCain—now campaigning for the White House as a war hero, maverick, and straight shooter—owes the voters some explanations. The press were long ago wooed and won by McCain’s seeming openness, Lone Ranger pose, and self-deprecating humor, which may partly explain their ignoring his record on POWs. In the numerous, lengthy McCain profiles that have appeared of late in papers like the New York Times, the Washington Post, and the Wall Street Journal, I may have missed a clause or a sentence along the way, but I have not found a single mention of his role in burying information about POWs. Television and radio news programs have been similarly silent.

Reporters simply never ask him about it. They didn’t when he ran unsuccessfully for the Republican nomination in 2000. They haven’t now, despite the fact that we’re in the midst of another war—a war he supports and one that has echoes of Vietnam. The only explanation McCain has ever offered for his leadership on legislation that seals POW files is that he believes the release of such information would only stir up fresh grief for the families of those who were never accounted for in Vietnam. Of the scores of POW families I’ve met over the years, only a few have said they want the books closed without knowing what happened to their men. All the rest say that not knowing is exactly what grieves them.

Isn’t it possible that what really worries those intent on keeping the POW documents buried is the public disgust that the contents of those files would generate?

How the Senate Committee Perpetuated the Debunking

In its early months, the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs gave the appearance of being committed to finding out the truth about the MIAs. As time went on, however, it became clear that they were cooperating in every way with the Pentagon and CIA, who often seemed to be calling the shots, even setting the agendas for certain key hearings. Both agencies held back the most important POW files. Dick Cheney was the Pentagon chief then; Robert Gates, now the Pentagon chief, was the CIA director.

Further, the committee failed to question any living president. Reagan declined to answer questions; the committee didn’t contest his refusal. Nixon was given a pass. George H.W. Bush, the sitting president, whose prints were all over this issue from his days as CIA chief in the 1970s, was never even approached. Troubled by these signs, several committee staffers began asking why the agencies they should be probing had been turned into committee partners and decision makers. Memos to that effect were circulated. The staff made the following finding, using intelligence reports marked “credible” that covered POW sightings through 1989: “There can be no doubt that POWs were alive … as late as 1989.” That finding was never released. Eventually, much of the staff was in rebellion.

This internecine struggle continued right up to the committee’s last official act—the issuance of its final report. The Executive Summary, which comprised the first 43 pages, was essentially a whitewash, saying that only “a small number” of POWs could have been left behind in 1973 and that there was little likelihood that any prisoners could still be alive. The Washington press corps, judging from its coverage, seems to have read only this air-brushed summary, which had been closely controlled.

But the rest of the 1,221-page Report on POW/MIAs was quite different. Sprinkled throughout are pieces of hard evidence that directly contradict the summary’s conclusions. This documentation established that a significant number of prisoners were left behind—and that top government officials knew this from the start. These candid findings were inserted by committee staffers who had unearthed the evidence and were determined not to allow the truth to be sugar-coated.

If the Washington press corps did actually read the body of the report and then failed to report its contents, that would be a scandal of its own. The press would then have knowingly ignored the steady stream of findings in the body of the report that refuted the summary and indicated that the number of abandoned men was not small but considerable. The report gave no figures but estimates from various branches of the intelligence community ranged up to 600. The lowest estimate was 150.

Highlights of the report that undermine the benign conclusions of the Executive Summary:

• Pages 207-209: These three pages contain revelations of what appear to be either massive intelligence failures or bad intentions—or both. The report says that until the committee brought up the subject in 1992, no branch of the intelligence community that dealt with analysis of satellite and lower-altitude photos had ever been informed of the specific distress signals U.S. personnel were trained to use in the Vietnam War, nor had they ever been tasked to look for any such signals at all from possible prisoners on the ground.

The committee decided, however, not to seek a review of old photography, saying it “would cause the expenditure of large amounts of manpower and money with no expectation of success.” It might also have turned up lots of distress-signal numbers that nobody in the government was looking for from 1973 to 1991, when the committee opened shop. That would have made it impossible for the committee to write the Executive Summary it seemed determined to write.

The failure gets worse. The committee also discovered that the DIA, which kept the lists of authenticator numbers for pilots and other personnel, could not “locate” the lists of these codes for Army, Navy, or Marine pilots. They had lost or destroyed the records. The Air Force list was the only one intact, as it had been preserved by a different intelligence branch.

The report concluded, “In theory, therefore, if a POW still living in captivity [today], were to attempt to communicate by ground signal, smuggling out a note or by whatever means possible, and he used his personal authenticator number to confirm his identity, the U.S. government would be unable to provide such confirmation, if his number happened to be among those numbers DIA cannot locate.”

It’s worth remembering that throughout the period when this intelligence disaster occurred—from the moment the treaty was signed in 1973 until 1991—the White House told the public that it had given the search for POWs and POW information the “highest national priority.”

• Page 13: Even in the Executive Summary, the report acknowledges the existence of clear intelligence, made known to government officials early on, that important numbers of captured U.S. POWs were not on Hanoi’s repatriation list. After Hanoi released its list (showing only ten names from Laos—nine military men and one civilian), President Nixon sent a message on Feb. 2, 1973 to Hanoi’s Prime Minister Pham Van Dong saying, “U.S. records show there are 317 American military men unaccounted for in Laos and it is inconceivable that only ten of these men would be held prisoner in Laos.”

Nixon was right. It was inconceivable. Then why did the president, less than two months later, on March 29, 1973, announce on national television that “all of our American POWs are on their way home”?

On April 13, 1973, just after all 591 men on Hanoi’s official list had returned to American soil, the Pentagon got into step with the president and announced that there was no evidence of any further live prisoners in Indochina (this is on page 248).

• Page 91: A lengthy footnote provides more confirmation of the White House’s knowledge of abandoned POWs. The footnote reads, “In a telephone conversation with Select Committee Vice-Chairman Bob Smith on December 29, 1992, Dr. Kissinger said that he had informed President Nixon during the 60-day period after the peace agreement was signed that U.S. intelligence officials believed that the list of prisoners captured in Laos was incomplete. According to Dr. Kissinger, the President responded by directing that the exchange of prisoners on the lists go forward, but added that a failure to account for the additional prisoners after Operation Homecoming would lead to a resumption of bombing. Dr. Kissinger said that the President was later unwilling to carry through on this threat.”

When Kissinger learned of the footnote while the final editing of the committee report was in progress,he and his lawyers lobbied fiercely through two Republican allies on the panel—one of them was John McCain—to get the footnote expunged. The effort failed. The footnote stayed intact.

• Pages 85-86: The committee report quotes Kissinger from his memoirs, writing solely in reference to prisoners in Laos: “We knew of at least 80 instances in which an American serviceman had been captured alive and subsequently disappeared. The evidence consisted either of voice communications from the ground in advance of capture or photographs and names published by the Communists. Yet none of these men was on the list of POWs handed over after the Agreement.”

Then why did he swear under oath to the committee in 1992 that he never had any information that specific, named soldiers were captured alive and hadn’t been returned by Vietnam?

• Page 89: In the middle of the prisoner repatriation and U.S. troop-withdrawal process agreed to in the treaty, when it became clear that Hanoi was not releasing everyone it held, a furious chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Thomas Moorer, issued an order halting the troop withdrawal until Hanoi complied with the agreement. He cited in particular the known prisoners in Laos. The order was retracted by President Nixon the next day. In 1992, Moorer, by then retired, testified under oath to the committee that his order had received the approval of the president, the national security adviser, and the secretary of Defense. Nixon, however, in a letter to the committee, wrote, “I do not recall directing Admiral Moorer to send this cable.”

The report did not include the following information: behind closed doors, a senior intelligence officer had testified to the POW committee that when Moorer’s order was rescinded, the angry admiral sent a “back-channel” message to other key military commanders telling them that Washington was abandoning known live prisoners. “Nixon and Kissinger are at it again,” he wrote. “SecDef and SecState have been cut out of the loop.” In 1973, the witness was working in the office that processed this message. His name and his testimony are still classified. A source present for the testimony provided me with this information and also reported that in that same time period, Moorer had stormed into Defense Secretary Schlesinger’s office and, pounding on his desk, yelled: “The bastards have still got our men.” Schlesinger, in his own testimony to the committee a few months later, was asked about—and corroborated—this account.

• Pages 95-96: In early April 1973, Deputy Defense Secretary William Clements “summoned” Dr. Roger Shields, then head of the Pentagon’s POW/MIA Task Force, to his office to work out “a new public formulation” of the POW issue; now that the White House had declared all prisoners to have been returned, a new spin was needed. Shields, under oath, described the meeting to the committee. He said Clements told him, “All the American POWs are dead.” Shields said he replied: “You can’t say that.” Clements shot back: “You didn’t hear me. They are all dead.” Shields testified that at that moment he thought he was going to be fired, but he escaped from his boss’s office still holding his job.

• Pages 97-98: A couple of days later, on April 11, 1973, a day before Shields was to hold a Pentagon press conference on POWs, he and Gen. Brent Scowcroft, then the deputy national security adviser, went to the Oval Office to discuss the “new public formulation” and its presentation with President Nixon.

The next day, reporters right off asked Shields about missing POWs. Shields fudged his answers. He said, “We have no indications at this time that there are any Americans alive in Indochina.” But he went on to say that there had not been “a complete accounting” of those lost in Laos and that the Pentagon would press on to account for the missing—a seeming acknowledgement that some Americans were still alive and unaccounted for.

The press, however, seized on Shields’s denials. One headline read, “POW Unit Boss: No Living GIs Left in Indochina.”

• Page 97: The POW committee, knowing that Nixon taped all his meetings in the Oval Office, sought the tape of that April 11, 1973 Nixon-Shields-Scowcroft meeting to find out what Nixon had been told and what he had said about the evidence of POWs still in Indochina. The committee also knew there had been other White House meetings that centered on intelligence about live POWs. A footnote on page 97 states that Nixon’s lawyers said they would provide access to the April 11 tape “only if the Committee agreed not to seek any other White House recordings from this time period.” The footnote says that the committee rejected these terms and got nothing. The committee never made public this request for Nixon tapes until the brief footnote in its 1993 report.

McCain’s Catch-22

None of this compelling evidence in the committee’s full report dislodged McCain from his contention that the whole POW issue was a concoction by deluded purveyors of a “conspiracy theory.” But an honest review of the full report, combined with the other documentary evidence, tells the story of a frustrated and angry president, and his national security adviser, furious at being thwarted at the peace table by a small, much less powerful country that refused to bow to Washington’s terms. That president seems to have swallowed hard and accepted a treaty that left probably hundreds of American prisoners in Hanoi’s hands, to be used as bargaining chips for reparations.

Maybe Nixon and Kissinger told themselves that they could get the prisoners home after some time had passed. But perhaps it proved too hard to undo a lie as big as this one. Washington said no prisoners were left behind, and Hanoi swore it had returned all of them. How could either side later admit it had lied? Time went by and as neither side budged, telling the truth became even more difficult and remote. The public would realize that Washington knew of the abandoned men all along. The truth, after men had been languishing in foul prison cells, could get people impeached or thrown in jail.

Which brings us to today, when the Republican candidate for president is the contemporary politician most responsible for keeping the truth about this matter hidden. Yet he says he’s the right man to be the commander in chief, and his credibility in making this claim is largely based on his image as a POW hero.

On page 468 of the 1,221-page report, McCain parsed his POW position oddly, “We found no compelling evidence to prove that Americans are alive in captivity today. There is some evidence—though no proof—to suggest only the possibility that a few Americans may have been kept behind after the end of America’s military involvement in Vietnam.”

“Evidence though no proof.” Clearly, no one could meet McCain’s standard of proof as long as he is leading a government crusade to keep the truth buried.

To this reporter, this sounds like a significant story and a long overdue opportunity for the press to finally dig into the archives to set the historical record straight—and even pose some direct questions to the candidate.
I don't like McCain's politics, generally speaking, but I admire his service. I won't armchair quarterback his time being tortured at the Hilton nor will I second guess what he did under extreme duress. I have watched and read a lot of interviews by other POWs and they all speak highly of him back then. By the grace of God I've never been in his position and don't know what I'd have done.
Those navy pukes that were crying after getting captured by the Iranians are pusssies! I damn sure know I wouldn't have done anything they did!
Guess this needs a bump...//www.miafacts.org/mccain.htm
Summary. For some years now there have been steady attacks on the valor and patriotism of Senator John McCain (Republican, Arizona). McCain was a Navy aviator, shot down over North Vietnam on 26 October 1967 and released at Operation Homecoming in March 1973. He was severely injured in his ejection and landing and endured unspeakable tortures.

The attacks on McCain originate almost entirely from a small number of Vietnam veterans. Many of his attackers accuse him of collaborating with his Vietnamese captors, in spite of testimony from other POWs as to his bravery, leadership, and valorous conduct. Why and from where come the attacks on McCain? The source of the attacks on McCain is, mainly, one MIA "activist" who accuses McCain of treasonous activities; his accusations are based on misquotes, misrepresentations, and Vietnamese wartime propaganda. Yet, this story has gained the status of gospel among the McCain haters and the MIA "activists." Read on for the rest of the story.
[...]
McCain's Position on US-Vietnam Relations and on the "Live-POW" Question
In the late 1980's, McCain took the position that the US should move toward normal diplomatic relations with Vietnam in return for their increased cooperation on the MIA issue.

Sampley recognized -- as does the rest of the "activist" community -- that such talk in high places can be disastrous to their efforts to recruit and to raise money. Their recruiting and fund raising pitch is the same: US POWs are still being held, alive, in Vietnam and we need just a few more dollars from you to free them.

As US researchers probe into Vietnamese wartime records, and as US search teams recover remains from crashsites and battlefield gravesites, the number of unaccounted for Americans goes down. More importantly, it is clear from the information collected that no American POWs were retained in captivity after Operation Homecoming. The "activists" do not want this information to become known because they depend on folks falling prey to their claims and then donating money or other support -- such as the proliferation of "POW-MIA Remembrance Sites" on the WWW.

McCain refused to be drawn into the live POW battles and he continued to support normal US-Vietnam relations. For a returned POW to take these two positions was more than the "activist" community could stand.
Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
Guess this needs a bump...//www.miafacts.org/mccain.htm
Summary. For some years now there have been steady attacks on the valor and patriotism of Senator John McCain (Republican, Arizona). McCain was a Navy aviator, shot down over North Vietnam on 26 October 1967 and released at Operation Homecoming in March 1973. He was severely injured in his ejection and landing and endured unspeakable tortures.

The attacks on McCain originate almost entirely from a small number of Vietnam veterans. Many of his attackers accuse him of collaborating with his Vietnamese captors, in spite of testimony from other POWs as to his bravery, leadership, and valorous conduct. Why and from where come the attacks on McCain? The source of the attacks on McCain is, mainly, one MIA "activist" who accuses McCain of treasonous activities; his accusations are based on misquotes, misrepresentations, and Vietnamese wartime propaganda. Yet, this story has gained the status of gospel among the McCain haters and the MIA "activists." Read on for the rest of the story.
[...]
McCain's Position on US-Vietnam Relations and on the "Live-POW" Question
In the late 1980's, McCain took the position that the US should move toward normal diplomatic relations with Vietnam in return for their increased cooperation on the MIA issue.

Sampley recognized -- as does the rest of the "activist" community -- that such talk in high places can be disastrous to their efforts to recruit and to raise money. Their recruiting and fund raising pitch is the same: US POWs are still being held, alive, in Vietnam and we need just a few more dollars from you to free them.

As US researchers probe into Vietnamese wartime records, and as US search teams recover remains from crashsites and battlefield gravesites, the number of unaccounted for Americans goes down. More importantly, it is clear from the information collected that no American POWs were retained in captivity after Operation Homecoming. The "activists" do not want this information to become known because they depend on folks falling prey to their claims and then donating money or other support -- such as the proliferation of "POW-MIA Remembrance Sites" on the WWW.

McCain refused to be drawn into the live POW battles and he continued to support normal US-Vietnam relations. For a returned POW to take these two positions was more than the "activist" community could stand.


Thanks for that, BOWSINGER.
Bob
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